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ufologie-roswell-witness-catalog

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ufologie.patrickgross.org — Roswell witness catalog (full capture)

Full capture of Patrick Gross’s Roswell witness catalog — the index page (rw/witnesses.htm) and all 76 linked witness sub-pages (rw/w/*.htm), reproduced verbatim-as-extracted from ufologie.patrickgross.org (Patrick Gross). Captured 2026-06-01 via curl + readability extraction (navigation/boilerplate stripped; links and images dropped). These pages reproduce witness affidavits, signed statements, and interview transcripts (largely quasi-public primary material that Gross compiled from FUFOR, Pflock, Randle/Schmitt, Pratt, etc.) together with Gross’s own cataloging. Reproduced here, with attribution, as a research archive. Each section gives the witness name and source URL.

Analysis of the affidavits’ supporting/contradicting content is in roswell-witness-affidavits; clean full texts of the five report-excerpted affidavits + Dennis are in roswell-witness-affidavits-full-texts.

Alan Clark

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/alanclark.htm

Roswell 1947 - Involved people

Alan D. Clark

(Al CLARK, Alan CLARK, Alan D. CLARK, Col. Alan D. CLARK, Alvin CLARK). |
---|---

Biography:

  • In 1937, US Military Academy Class.
  • In 1938, Flight Training Class C.
  • Became Operations Officer of the 25th Bomber Group in Puerto Rico.
  • September 1943, became Deputy Commander of the 444th Bomber Group.
  • Through August 1944, commanded the forward base of the 444th.
  • Then assigned stateside to Tactical School Orlando, Florida.
  • In June 1945, Assistant to the Chief of Staff A-3 58th Bomber Wing, in Tinian.
  • In June 1947, Colonel Alan D. Clark was at Fort Worth Army Air Field.
  • On November 17, took command of the 7th Bombardment Wing, Very Heavy at Fort Worth Army Air Field (FWAA), replacing Colonel Wheeless.
  • (On September 18, 1947, the Army Air Forces became the autonomous United States Air Force.)
  • In 1948, he is still in command of the 7th Bombardment wing, in Fort Worth, and receipts the first operational B-36 strategic bomber, with General Ramey, Chief of the 8th Air Force.

Affidavits:

I did not locate any affidavit by Alan D. Clark.

Interviews and public statements:

I did not find any indication that Alan D. Clark ever stated anything in person about the Roswell incident.

Investigators’ notes and comments:

Comments found on the Internet:

“Col. Alan D. Clark flies debris in a B-26 from Ft. Worth to Washington, DC for Gen. McMullen.”

- or -

“At the Fort Worth Field, DuBose and Col. Alan D. Clark, the base commander, meet the aircraft from Roswell. Clark receives the plastic bag of debris and walks it to a waiting B-29 to fly it to Washington.”

No source indicated for this comments and similar comments found on the Internet in various Roswell incident timelines.

Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt:

According by the two Roswell incident investigators Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, Colonel Thomas J. DuBose, General Ramey’s chief of staff at that time, attested: “Actually it was a cover story. … The balloon part of it … the remnants [from Roswell] were taken from this location, and Al Clark (the base commander at Fort Worth) took [them] to Washington, [D.C.,] and whatever happened then, I have no knowledge. That part of it [the weather balloon] was, in fact, a story that we were told to give to the public and the news, and that was it.”

Source:

  • “The Roswell Report, “…The Biggest Lie I Ever Had to Tell"" , article by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt.

Gildas Bourdais:

“Colonel DuBose personally controls the transfer of the bag on board of another plane (B-25 or B-26), which leaves at once for Washington. DuBose attached the bag to the wrist of colonel Alan Clark, commander of the base, responsible for this transport.”

Source:

  • “Roswell et “La rumeur de Roswell"" , article by Gildas Bourdais, October 1999.

David Rudiak:

“According to Dubose, this debris traveled from Roswell to Fort Worth and was transferred to another plane, with the Fort Worth base commander, Col. Alvin Clark acting personally as the new courier, obviously attesting to the importance attached to this shipment. This was then flown to Washington and from there to the aeronautical labs at Wright Field for further analysis. (The story of this shipment is mentioned in Dubose’s affidavit, but confused with the other events of July 8. In other interviews Dubose made it clear that this shipment took place several days before when he was first made aware of the discovery at Roswell.)”

Source:

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossJuly 20, 2003First published.

Albert Bruce Collins

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/albertcollins.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Albert Bruce Collins

(Albert Bruce COLLINS, Albert COLLINS, Albert B. Collins).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

There is no verified biography of Albert Bruce Collins.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Albert Bruce Collins.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no interview or public statements by Albert Bruce Collins.

Investigators notes and comments:

(Under investigation.)

It is alleged by author Tim Cooper that Albert B. Collins is a Counter-Intelligence Corp (CIC) Army Technician, dead January 1st, 1991, supposedly member of the IPU (Interplanetary Phenomena Unit), and supposed to be known by a CIC agent named Cantwheel or Cantwell, who is not listed on Army records.

Tim Cooper claims to have interviewed him in 1990 shortly before his death, and that Collins claimed to have been a metallurgist who worked for the University of California, Berkeley, and Occidental College for the Manhattan Project from 1942 to the late fifties, allegedly developing alloys used for electro-magnetic propagation and magnetic propulsion.

Collins claimed he heard rumors about “unusual metal-like wood [sic] being tested and results fed into a computer at Berkeley.”

Collins also claims to have seen the Roswell craft in 1947 in Berkeley on a flatbed truck being backed into a warehouse and that he then worked on analyzing debris fragments.

There is absolutely no verification by any other Roswell researchers for Tim Copper alleged interview, many are questioning the very existence of Albert B. Collins.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossJUly 21, 2003First published.

Albert Duran

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/albertduran.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Albert Duran

(Albert Lovejoy DURAN, Albert DURAN, Albert L. DURAN, Lt. Col Albert Lovejoy DURAN). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to Kevin Randle, Albert L. Duran was a military person at White Sands who dfinished his military career as a Lieutenant-Colonel.

I found no record of him outside the ufology litterature, and could not identify him or family members in genealogy sources.

This does not mean he did not exist, it only means I was unable to find traces of him.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Albert Duran.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no publich statement by Albert Duran.

Investigators notes and comments:

Karl Pflock:

This skeptical researcher says there were only 4 identified people who talked of alien bodies recovered during the Roswell incident, and he cites “a Lt. Col Albert L. Duran” as one of these four people.

He says that Kevin Randle asked him ny email on August 3, 1999, if he had talked to Duran, saying ihe is a source developped by Donald Schmitt and that Schmitt seemed quite impressed by him. Pflock answered that he had not talked to Duran.

Further on, Pflock indicated that Randles in 1999 told him that anything of a confirmed account by Duran remains very elusive.

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenients Facts and the Will to Beieve ”, book by Karl Pflock, Prometheus Books publishers, pages 118,176-177, 181, 2001.

Timothy Printy, 2003:

[…]

Getting back to Frank’s [Frank Kaufmann, a discredited witness] rather ingenious tale, we find all the cast near the crashed saucer. Frank states there were many people there. The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell states that this list included:

Robert Thomas from Washington DC
Howard Fletcher from Washington DC
Lucas from Washington DC
Adair from west coast
Harris from west coast
A special unit from White Sands
Colonel Blanchard
W.O. “Pappy” Henderson
Major Edwin Easley
Lt. Col. Albert Lovejoy Duran (Randle and Schmitt Truth 10)

This list includes some interesting names. However, all seem to be conveniently dead! There is a comment by Randle and Schmitt that Duran confirms Frank’s story. However, he is not quoted or placed in the list of witnesses in the back of the book. He is not even listed as being interviewed!

[…]

Source:

  • “Chapter 12: Every Circus Needs a Clown” , members.aol.com/TPrinty/Kaufmann.html, articles by Timothy Printy, 1999, Updated November 30, 2002.

Unknown FUFOR article footnote:

[…]

[Footnote]

Lieutenant Colonel Albert Lovejoy Duran backs this story up as an assignment of his White Sands unit.

Source:

  • Unknown FUFOR article footnote.

Source:

  • “Andover Births, 1892 - 1904” , andovermaine.tripod.com/births92.html.

Kevin Randle explains that the reason Donald Schmitt and him did not do much about Albert Duran was that though they were able to confirm his military service and retirement at the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, he was apparently an alcoholic, who eventually moved to Colorado. A friend, Sergeant Arne Oldman, who was assigned to White Sands in the early 1990s, had attempted to interview Duran, but Duran’s cirrhosis of the liver made that problematic and Duran died before Oldman could meet with him in person though he did talk to him over the telephone conducting a somewhat preliminary interview. After Duran’s death, Donald Schmitt did talk to the daughter one more time and she stood by the tale she told. Because of all this, and the failure by Randle and Schmitt to get Duran on tape, they let the story go.

Randle explains that he used a government publication printed every year, looked for any mention of Duran and found his name in it, confirming that he had retired as a lieutenant colonel. He specifies that this does not mean the story he shared with his daughter, especially when he had been drinking, was true, but it means Duran existed and had retired as a lieutenant colonel.

Source:

Kevin Randle explains that though Karl Pflock had been unable to check whether Albert Duran existed, and others suggested he did not exist, Donald Schmitt had been introduced to Juanita “Theresa” Valenzuala through Carrie Wallace of Alamogordo. Juanita “Theresa” Valenzuela was the daughter of Duran.

She told that her father was something of an alcolholic, and when he had been drinking, he sometimes talk of a unit from White Sands that had been dispatched to the desert north of Roswell, and he sometimes mentionned bodies found at one of those sites.

Kevin Randle indicates Lieutenant Colonel Duran does exist; he is mentionned in an official document he was able to locate after Karl Pflock’s book was published.

Source:

  • “Roswell in the 21st Century ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Speaking Volumes publishers, 2016.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 20, 2017First published.

Anna Willmon

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/annawillmon.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Anna Willmon

(Anna WILLMON, Anna L. WILLMON, Anna Louise WILLMON). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Kevin Randle says Anna Willmon was in Roswell in 1947, and died in California a year after one of her interviews - presumably the latest one - which started in 1994 or soon after 1994.

Randle indicates her husband in 1947 was W. I. Witcamp.

I found no biography details about her outside the ufology literature, however, census, SSN and genealogy websites allowed me to find her:

Anna L. Willmon
date [of death] dd mm 1997
[Place of death] 95301 Atwater, Merced, California, USA

Anna Louise Willmon
California
Born: December 5, 1915
Died: March 30, 1997

Anna L Willmon, 81, born on December 5, 1915 and passed away on March 30, 1997.

Social Security number 525-84-9293 was issued to ANNA L WILLMON, who was born 05 December 1915 and, Death Master File says, died 30 March 1997.

Anna L Willmon
Born: Dec 5, 1915
Died: Mar 30, 1997
Last home: Atwater, California 95301, USA
SSN state: New Mexico

I also found “Mrs. Anna Louise Willmon of Roswell, N.M.” cited as a daughter of a man who died, in The Amarillo Globe-Times, Amarillo, Texas, for January 27, 1975.

This means that she was 32 +-1 year old in 1947.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Anna Willmon.

Interviews and public statements:

There was apparently no published verbatim or video interview of Anna Willmon.

Investigators notes and comments:

Kevin Randle:

Kevin Randle says Anna Willmon is a witness found through investigative work, who did not come forward but agreed to talk to investigators who had learned she had seen the Roswell craft and the bodies from it.

Randle says that when she was found, she was elderly, her mind was not sharp anymore, she had vague memories of the event.

She said she had been in the Capitan mountains West of Roswell, returning to Roswell, when her husband saw something shining and stopped to look at it. They turned to the north from the old Pine Lodge Road about 20 miles from Roswell, on a property that Willmon said now belonged to the Corns, while she did not know who owned it in 1947.

The couple worked their way through the brush to the object which reminded her of an overturned washtub. It was about 12 feet long, and she saw the bodies of “littles guys”, as she called them. She said it looked as if one of them got out of the craft, walked a short distance and laid down.

She said she did not see much of their skin, which looked like burnt rubber of a hard to define grayish-brown color. She did not see their eyes.

She went back to the car to search for a telephone, called the military to let them know what they found.

When the military arrived, they were not at the craft anymore, but met the military truck and gave the directions; then the left and did not tell anyone about this.

Randle says she had no diary or paper about this and that she had no proof of what she told. He says the timing, in the late afternoon, does not fit, and the place does not fit because the site is too far south from the Corn site of today. Randle thinks she might have heard about the Corn place, not well known in 1994 but not secret either.

He says that shortly after the interview, she moved from Roswell to California and died about one year later.

Source:

  • “The Roswell Encyclopedia ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Harper Resource publishers, 2000.

Kevin Randle says he met Anna Willmon in 1994, she was clearly in Roswell at the time of the UFO crash and told her first-hand story to him just about a year or so before her death.

Randle says she was a nice woman whose memory was not as sharp as it once had been, she remembered some details of her encounter, but some of her memories are at odds with what others recalled, perhaps as the passage of time might colored her memories.

She told during both a telephone and later a video-taped interview, that she had been in the Capitan Mountains west of Roswell with her first husband, W. I. Witcamp, returning from a long morning of work at a saw mill.

In the late afternoon, they were about twenty miles from Roswell along what is known as the Pine Lodge Road when they saw something shining off the highway and stopped to look for it.

The couple moved through the brush until they came to an object shaped like an overturned washtub, which means that it was circular, or saucer-like. She thought it was not very large, maybe 12 to 15 feet in diameter.

She described the surface of the craft was very shiny, almost mirror-like. It was in two pieces: one of them sat up on four short stubby legs; the other looked as it if had been knocked from the top in the crash, and was sitting a short distance away. She insisted on calling it a flying saucer and said that her husband had called it that repeatedly.

She saw bodies of the flight crew, “little guys” as she called them, but did not see much of the creatures because as she approached one, with the thought of turning it over, her husband stopped her. He was afraid of radiation or maybe disease. He did not want her to touch thee bodies or the remains of the craft.

She said that there were two bodies: one lying face down in the dirt, and the other in the shade of some cedar trees as if he had crawled over there before he died.

She said the skin looked rubber-like, like burnt rubber, grayish-brown, she said the color was hard to define. Both beings had the same skin color.

She said “…that other one was laying up kinda towards this brush and the other was out back… like he had been flung out of the thing. And this other little guy looked like he’d got out and went off and laid down… And he wasn’t very big. He was about as big as a little five year old kid. A little one.”

She said that one of them was slim, skinny, with short arms and little hands and feet, and the one she thought might have survived the crash only to die a little later, was chubby. His arms were short and his feet looked like human feet. The only difference was that he was heavier than the other.

She said that they were dressed the same. They wore green shorts and nothing else. She could see their backs and said that they looked normal. She mentioned repeatedly that were small creatures.

She kept no diary and wrote no letters that mentioned the incident, and those she knew in 1947, who might have been be able to corroborate what she said were long dead. She had no way to verify the information and no proof for what she said. She did the best she could to answer the questions and seemed sincere in what she said.

Randle notes that the location she gave and the timing of her story does not fit with other information that has been developed.

She made it clear that they had gone to a ranch house to call the military.

Randle says she did say that they had talked to a colonel, but then her husband had a habit of calling any military man “colonel.” She said that they had been cautioned not to talk about what they had seen, but it seemed to have been more of a request than an order, she did not perceive it as a threat, rather a suggestion they not mention it to anyone else. She did not seem surprised by the reaction of the “colonel”, as he seemed to be aware of the situation, as if this was not the first such site that he had visited. This suggests that there might have been more than a single site where bodies were found, which does fit with information being developed today.

Source:

  • “Roswell Revisited ”, book by Kevin Randle, Galde Press publishers, 2007.

Randle says that in 1994, civilian witness Anna Willmon was discovered.

She claimed she saw the craft and the alien bodies in 1947, at a crash site closer to Roswell and closer to the highway leading to the West of the town.

Her story was that she was returning to Roswell with her first husband W. I. Witcamp when they potted something shiny off the highway about 20 or 30 miles outside of Roswell. Seeing it, they stopped to find out what it was. They moved to the brush until they came on an object in the shape of an overturned washtub. She did not thing it was very large, only 12 to 15 feet in diameter. She saw two bodies of “little guys”, as she called them, one lying face down in the dirt and the other in the shade of a cedar tree as it it had crawled before he died.

Thin skin looked like burnt rubber, grayish brown; she said the color was hard to define.

She said that “…that other one was laying up kind of towards this brush and the other was out back… like he had been flung out of the thing. And this other little guy looked like he’d got out and went off and lay down… And he wasn’t very big. He was as big as a little five-year-old kid. A little one.”

She said one was slim, skinny, with short arms, little hands and feet. The other, the one she thought to have survived the crash to die a little later was chubby, with short arms too, and feet that looked like human feet. The only difference between them was that this one was a little heavier.

She said the surface of the craft was shiny, almost mirror-like, in two pieces. One piece sat on four short stubby legs and the other, smaller piece looked as if it had been knocked from the top of the craft during the crash, and it was sitting a short distance away. She insisted on calling it a flying saucer, and that her husband called it like that repeatedly when they talked about it.

She said they went to Roswell and called the sheriff to tell him what they saw, and then returned to the site to wait for the police. She said she later talked to a colonel from the base who requested that they do not talk to anyone about what they had seen. She insisted that the colonel did not order this but only requested it.

Source:

  • “Roswell in the 21st Century ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Speaking Volumes publishers, page 101, 2010.

Randle located other secondhand witnesses who, like Rowe, had been kids in 1947 and learned of the small bodies from parents. Firsthand accounts are always best, of course, and Randle eventually located a woman able to tell just such a story. Although elderly when Randle got to her in 1994, Anna Willmon recalled with reasonable clarity how she and her husband came upon wreckage near Pine Lodge Road, about twenty miles from Roswell. The Willmons discovered two corpses sprawled near a silvery disc. Anna Willmon recalled the bodies as being the size of small five-year-olds, with gray-brown skin.

Source:

  • “UFO FAQ: All That’s Left to Know About Roswell, Aliens, Whirling Discs, and Flying Saucers ”, book by David J. Hogan, Hal Leonard Corporation publishers, USA, 2016,

My comments:

There seems to be no indication of a date in the report.

This - alleged - site was visible from the road, Willmon implied, as they, or her husband, spotted something shiny off the road while they were driving on the road. This means that the “crash” there - if there is any truth in it - likely did not occur very long ago because other drivers would have spotted the shining stuff.

No other testimony related to the Roswell incident ever mentioned body with all skin visible except for the parts hidden by the “green shorts” they wore.

Below: Typical landscape from W Pine Lodge Road at about 20 miles off Roswell:

Below: If they “turned to the North from the Old Pine Lodge Road” while being “about 20 miles from Roswell”, they may have been somewhere on “Brown Lake Road”; which is not a logical way back to Roswell from the Capitan mountains.

This would indeed by a “fifth” “crash site”; - if all other 4 alleged crash sites are considered (Foster Ranch, Corn ranch, Ragsdale site, plains of San Agustin). I note that there seems to have been no effort to check the place for any debris and that this site in not publicized in the Roswell incident literature.

Of course, a “skeptic’s” view of this testimony would insist that Anna Willmon was not sharp-minded anymore, “her mind was not sharp anymore, she had vague memories of the event” per Kevin Randle, so the story could be false memories and thus does not “prove” anything.

Another track would be that Anna Willmon had blurred memories of some car crash or aircraft crash. I tried to find some prosaic crash in the Press that would be the source of some memories.

  • The Clovis News-Journal for January 8, 1947, on page 1, reported 6 killed in car to train collision on the highway 285; report by Sheriff George Wilcox. The train was stopped and stayed until the injured were picked up.
  • The Albuquerque Journal for January 24, 1947, on page 1, reported a plane crash that killed 2 Roswell ranchers 65 miles SW of Roswell. But there were witnesses on the spot, not Willmon or Witcamp but the Teels couple.
  • The Santa Fe New Mexican for April 4, 1947, on page 1 reported that a twin-engined Beechcraft Army plane en route from Tucson to Roswell with a crew of 3 is still missing, search by army planes including some from Roswell AAFB has been done and helicopters will join the search the next day. But the wreck was found in November 20 miles SE of Las Cruces.
  • The Clovis News-Journal for August 8, 1947, on page 5, repotred a car to truck collision on highway 285 N of Roswell, with one woman killed and 3 seriously injured.
  • The Albuquerque Journal for August 8, 1947, on page 1, reported 1 dead and 2 injured in a car to truck collision on US 285 N of Roswell.
  • The Albuquerque Journal for September 10, 1947, on page 2, reported an auto accident 20 miles N of Roswell on US 285. Former Oklahoma Senator Gore and his wife were injured. The car was overturned after striking a soft shoulder of the highway.
  • The Albuquerque Journal for October 21, 1947, on page 1, reported ace cowboys Bob Crosby dies in his jeep that crashed 40 miles NE of Roswell.
  • The Gallup Independent for 24 November 1947, on page 4, reported on a truck hits car accident, but it was E of Roswell not W. A woman of 38 and a teen of 17 were killed, 9 others were injured.

So I did not find an accurately “matching” crash in 1947 near Roswell; however, I did not explore all the 1940’s and 1950’s newspapers, and I do not have all the NM newspapers.

One thing that could match a car accident would be “It was in two pieces: one of them sat up on four short stubby legs; the other looked as it if had been knocked from the top in the crash, and was sitting a short distance away.” The part on the 4 short legs would be the car, the 4 legs being the wheels. The other part would be, for example, the torn off hood. We see in the examples of car crashes in the Press that I quote above an example of a car accident without collision with another vehicle, so an accident with a single car thrown off the road is possible.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 28, 2017First published.
1.1Patrick GrossOctober 17, 2018Addition [dh1]. In my comments, addition of “Another track would be…” and what follows.

Ann Harris LaFeir Bossack

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/annharris.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Ann Harris LaFeir Bossack

(Ann HARRIS, Ann HARRIS LAFEIR BOSSACK, Ann BOSSACK).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Ann Harris intruduces herself as the daughter of Richard Clayton Harris, Jr., a man retired from the US Air Force with the rank of Major, who, she said, was a Budget and Fiscal Officer during the Roswell incident.

Interviews and public statements:

Ann Harris wrote the following on her own website at: http://www.ufolab.info/ann.htm

July 4, 1947: The day that Roswell, New Mexico, became the Mecca for UFO investigators. The day that the United States Government started one of its longest and greatest cover-ups. Dad was at the very heart of it. I was almost six months old.

As Budget and Fiscal Officer, it was his job to allot the funds necessary for the cleanup and cover-up of a crashed space ship north of Roswell that has become known as The Roswell Incident. Dad allotted the funds to pay for housing and food for extra personnel, and extra fuel for the unscheduled flights to the air field at Fort Worth, Texas, and then on to Wright Patterson Field near Dayton, Ohio.

Dad had a chance to view the bodies. But he did not have a strong stomach. As he approached the door to the morgue, the odor turned him away.

However, he did mention in a 1997 interview with Kevin Randle for Strange Universe, that it was, in fact, a space ship that had crashed near Roswell in 1947.

As a result of this interview, which first aired February 12, 1997, Dad was killed in his home in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Dad was 82. The circumstances behind his death are very strange, indeed. Being confined to use a walker, it was unusual for it not to end up near his body. There was a six-inch hole in the adobe wall; his skull was crushed in the back, and his neck was broken. The Albuquerque Police Department and the Medical Investigator said that the hole was caused by his fall from a standing height. But what made the purple bruises on his forehead and face? Why was his body found ten feet from that hole in the wall? Why was there blood on the carpet, on the couch, and on the phone?? Why were his slippers found at the opposite end of the room, in the dining area, on opposite sides of that room??? None of this was mentioned in the police report or in the coroner’s report. One more question: Why were there CIA agents investigating along with the APD?

I have had a life-long interest in UFOs and Visitors because of being born in Roswell in 1947, and because my father was directly involved in the Roswell Incident.

All my life, I would ask Dad to tell me about what he saw. He would bend down, get right in my face and shout, “We were told to forget it. It never happened.”

But I never stopped asking him.

In 1996, I opened a small business in Old Town Albuquerque called UFO LAB. It was a huge success for such a tiny shop. Then, a free-lance producer’s wife, Mrs. John Grace, found the UFO LAB. She brought John along on her very next visit and he asked to do an interview as UFO LAB was the only one of its kind in the world at that time. During the interview, I explained about my dad and my life-long interest in this subject. I was shocked when Dad agreed to be inter- viewed by Kevin Randle for Strange Universe. The segment turned out well. I was rather pleased. It first aired on February 12, 1997. And, Strange Universe ran our segment all that year in honor of the 50th Anniversary of the Roswell Incident. About once a week, customers would come running into the UFO LAB and excitedly tell me that they’d seen me on television the night before. Life was fun.

On August 13, 1997, my brother called to tell me that our father was dead. He had been dead for about 12 hours when his caregiver found him and called 911.

Less than one month later, Stanton Friedman introduced me to Dennis Bossack on September 9, 1997. It was love at first sight. We were married on December 27, 1997. Even though Dennis and Dad never got to meet each other, Dennis honors him, and me, by referring to Dad as his father-in-law. We packed up and headed for the East Coast on January 14, 1998, settling in Hope Valley, Rhode Island, on March 27, 1998.

In September, 1999, plans were initiated to re-open the UFO LAB in Richmond, Rhode Island. The grand opening of our museum, information center and gift shop began the week of November 22, 1999. Stan Friedman was in attendance for a book signing and chatting with customers. Of course, he charmed everyone, as usual. Along with many other famous folks, Stan’s also been a guest on our radio show, DNA LIVE RADIO which aired on Sundays, from 6 to 10pm, WBLQ, 88.1 FM, Westerly, Rhode Island. Our last show was December 2, 2001, but we will doing an internet radio show after we settle in New Mexico.

Ann Harris LaFeir Bossack

ann@ufolab.info

Source of the text below: http://www.mysteriesofthemind.com/guests.htm

Bossack, Dennis and Ann, - co-hosts of DNA LIVE, broadcast every Sunday, 6:00-10:00 pm (EST) on WBLQ 88.1 FM. Dennis recently semi-retired from an above-top-secret private organization which watchdogged government and corresponding subversive groups and is currently writing the first of three books about this agency and his experiences with the Visitors. Dennis’ wife, Ann, is the daughter of the late Richard Clayton Harris, Jr., Budget and Fiscal Officer at Roswell Army Air Field, 1947. Ann’s father died mysteriously after an interview with Kevin Randle aired on Strange Universe, in which he mentioned that it was, in fact, a space ship that had crashed near Roswell in 1947. www.ufolabri.com and dennis@ufolabri.com

Investigators notes and comments:

Bwlow: excerpts from “The outsider”, a section by Chris Wright on the “Phoenix.com News and Features” website at http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/other_stories/multipage/documents/00984677.htm

The outsider

Once the darling of the UFO community, Dennis Bossack is now described as ‘the worst thing that ever happened’ to it. Where did he go wrong?

BY CHRIS WRIGHT

[…]

In 1997, Dennis [Bossack] boosted his status in the UFO field even further when he met and married a woman named Ann Harris. When Dennis met Ann, she owned a space-age emporium called the UFO Lab in Albuquerque, New Mexico. One of the only businesses of its kind at the time, the lab attracted national publicity. It seemed the perfect base for Dennis Bossack to loose his Omega theories on the world.

Better yet, Ann had impeccable credentials of her own. She is a native of Roswell, New Mexico, the Mecca of the UFO movement. Her father, Richard Clayton Harris Jr., was stationed at the Roswell air field in 1947, the year a space craft is supposed to have crash-landed there. As a budget officer, Ann says, Lieutenant Harris allotted the funds for the clean-up and cover-up of the crash site. In 1997, the noted UFO expert Kevin Randle investigated Harris’s claims for the TV show Strange Universe, and called them “credible.” In the UFO community, this is as close to a ringing endorsement as you’re likely to get.

Ann also counted Stanton Friedman - one of the UFO field’s most respected investigators - among her friends. Indeed, it was Friedman who first introduced Dennis to Ann. The couple insist, though, that their marriage was more a matter of divine - or at least otherworldly - intervention. “When the Creator formed the foundations of the earth,” says Ann, “he meant me for Dennis and Dennis for me.”

In any case, the two share one thing in common: both have had a lifelong obsession with things that go bleep in the night. And, whether or not you believe their account of the night they met, the way they tell the story lends credence to Ann’s assertion that they are “a match made in heaven.”

[…]

The museum at the UFO Lab is, in fact, not really a museum at all - at least not in the traditional sense of the word. It is a visual representation of the Bossacks’ world-view - a fascinating, idiosyncratic, even gonzo take on the UFO phenomenon. “History as we know it is wrong,” Ann says, puffing a cigarette. “There is information in here you can’t get anywhere else on earth.”

On this point she is absolutely right. Following a brief tour of the museum, I am led through another door and ushered into a back room, where, surrounded by jars of peanut butter, computer equipment, and UFO paraphernalia, Dennis and Ann Bossack tell me stories I am quite sure I could not hear anywhere else on earth. Or possibly the universe.

THE OMEGA Agency is the security force for the Universal Government. The Universal Government consists of 752 advanced planets from around the known universe,” says Dennis, bracing himself to deliver a pitch he has clearly made many times before. “I was the director of the agency here on earth.”

This stuff goes on for about four hours, and not once does Dennis deviate from his deadpan, matter-of-fact delivery. Indeed, the truly impressive thing about his stories is that they are both incoherent and consistent. Ask Dennis a questions about the tiniest detail of his Omega days, and he will fire back an answer before you can blink in disbelief.

The story begins in New York, back in the early 1970s, when a pair of Omega representatives approached Dennis about working for the agency. “Men in Black, that’s what they looked like,” he says. “White shirts, black pants, black jacket, black tie. They knocked on my apartment door. I said, ‘What the hell are you talking about?’ ”

A visit to Omega headquarters, five miles beneath the New Mexico desert, allayed his doubts. “It was amazing,” he says. “The first place we went to was the cafeteria. It was stark white, immaculately clean, indirect lighting everywhere. They had any kind of food you wanted to eat, Zeta food too. They had this mango-banana-type food that’s very sweet. I’m a diabetic, and I could eat it.”

After meeting with the Omega leader, Dennis agreed to join the agency. He ended up working there, he says, for 28 years, 15 of those as director. His main job was overseeing the day-to-day operation of the underground facility, in which hundreds of earthlings and Visitors worked side by side to prepare the planet for the day Omega takes over. “It was a very hectic life,” he says, “very time-consuming. I missed a lot of family functions.”

Dennis “semi-retired” from Omega in 1997, though he still has a role in the organization. He is, in his own words, a sort of PR man. Even so, Dennis misses the Omega lifestyle. “It’s one big family down there,” he says. “Everybody watches out for everybody.” He especially misses his friend Aviel, the hamburger-munching Reticulan.

Aviel still works at Omega as a biologist, specializing in the study of human emotions. Actually, this isn’t entirely accurate - she studies earthling emotions. Aviel is herself a human being, as are all the Visitors. She is simply 200 million years more evolved than we are.

For Aviel, earthlings are like infants. She finds us difficult to understand. We make her sad. She used to quiz Dennis for hours, asking question after question about our aggressive, warlike ways. “For her, this was like looking into the past,” he says. “Her planet actually had 12 world wars before they matured. But she hasn’t seen any of that. Watching earth is like watching ancient Zeta.”

More often than not, Dennis and Aviel’s conversations concerned more mundane subjects, like family and work. Aviel has a husband and two kids back on Zeta, Dennis says, and “every other weekend or so” she would go back for a visit. Occasionally, Dennis would go with her.

“It’s actually only a 15-minute trip,” he says. “That puppy takes off from zero to 10 times the speed of light, and you have no idea you’re doing it. You do not have to be seat-belted in. You do not have to be seated.”

It’s been a while since Dennis went to Zeta, and it’s been a while since he saw Aviel. “We still communicate telepathically,” he says, “but it’s not the same.” The day of Dennis’s retirement, Aviel demonstrated her regard for him by violating a Reticulan taboo. “One of the things that surprised me most after 25 years of working with Aviel,” he says, “I was the only one who left there and got a hug. To her, any kind of touching is sexual, but she had to take that and turn it into an earth gesture to say goodbye.”

“They don’t even shake hands,” adds Ann, without a hint of jealousy.

[…]

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 7, 2017First published.

Ann Robbins

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/annrobbins.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Ann Robbins

(Ann ROBBINS).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to an article by the Dallas Observer available in this page, Ann Robbins was born in 1919 and was 28 at the time of the Roswell incident. She is said to have been the wife of Technical Sergeant Ernest Robert Robbins, airplane repair man with an Intelligence clearance, in service at the Roswell Army Air field at the time of the incident.

Affidavits:

I found no affidavit by Ann Robbins.

Articles:

The Dallas Observer, April 3, 2003:

The following article was written by Carlton Stower and appeared on the Dallas Observer’s website on April 3, 2003, archived at www.dallasobserver.com/Issues/2003-04-03/news/feature.html Carlton Stower is a regular writer of that magazine and write at least 85 articles, on sports, events, news, and a few on UFO matters.

The Dallas Observer is a Dallas, Texas, magazine (www.dallasobserver.com).

The article was also reprinted on several websites, in Whitley Strieber’s newsletter and apparently reprinted or referred to in the MUFON UFO Journal. On some websites, the article is mildly edited, and sometimes, a headline is added, such as “New proof of the Roswell incident”.

The article offers more than the Ann Robbins story; however, I provide here only and all of the parts related to Ann Robbins.

It was a snow-covered December in 1995 when President Bill Clinton, visiting Northern Ireland in support of the country’s new and fragile peace process, spoke to a large gathering that had arrived for a Christmas tree lighting ceremony. The president opted to dismiss politics and keep the mood of his speech light. At one point, he drew laughter as he referred to a letter he’d recently received from a 13- year-old boy in Belfast.

“Ryan,” the president said, “in case you’re out there, here is your answer: No. As far as I know, no spaceship crashed at Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947. And if the Air Force recovered any extraterrestrial bodies, they did not tell me.”

Such is the widespread and ongoing fascination attached to a legendary event that many believe actually took place on the late J.B. Foster’s sheep ranch more than a half-century ago. What has transpired since that Independence Day weekend when a “flying saucer” was allegedly recovered by military personnel from Roswell Army Air Field has fueled a debate that continues 56 years later. Is it possible that such an unearthly event really occurred? The question has spawned an industry of books - well more than 100 at last count - and documentary films, inspired popular television shows and sci-fi movies, a prospering museum business in Roswell and insistence by many researchers that an ongoing government cover-up of the historic discovery puts Watergate to shame.

Perhaps Clinton should have visited with Midland’s Ann Robbins before giving his answer. The widow of a career military man stationed in Roswell at the time, she might have changed his mind. She would probably have shared the description of the saucer that her husband, Technical Sergeant Ernest Robert Robbins, told her he helped recover long ago and the three small “men” - one dead, one near death and another very much alive - found outside the spaceship.

[…]

The official version of the Roswell incident thus became that a military weather balloon launched to detect wind velocity and direction at high altitudes had come crashing down on Foster Ranch. End of story.

[…]

Ann Robbins, who until now has never spoken publicly on the matter, says what her late husband saw 56 years ago was hardly a downed weather balloon. Seated in a meeting room at the newly opened Odessa Meteor Crater Museum, the 84-year-old Robbins clearly recalls a July night when her husband received a call to report to the base. She would not see or hear from him for 18 hours. And when she did, he told her bits and pieces of a bizarre story that has puzzled her for a lifetime.

“We had been to a dinner party at the NCO [non-commissioned officers] club on the base,” she says, “and didn’t get home until 10:30 or 11. We’d already gone to bed but weren’t yet asleep when everything outside lit up like it was daylight. It was like that for what seemed like several minutes, and we both assumed that it was probably helicopters from the base with searchlights on.”

Soon thereafter, the phone call came to their home and her husband told her he had to report to the base.

“I just assumed that there had been a plane crash somewhere nearby,” she says. “But I couldn’t figure why my husband, a sheet-metal man who repaired planes, was called in.”

She was even more puzzled when he returned home the following evening, his uniform wrinkled and damp. “I asked him what had happened to him, why he was so wet, and he told me he’d had to go through the decontamination tank at the base. I asked, ‘In your clothes?’ and he said, ‘They were what I was wearing when I was out there.‘”

Still assuming that he’d been called to the site of a plane crash, she quizzed him further. “He told me, ‘Well, I guess you might as well know; it’s going to be in the papers. A UFO crashed outside of Roswell.‘”

Her response? “I told him he was crazy.”

“No,” Sergeant Robbins replied, “I’m not.” Then he showered and went to bed.

“I don’t remember him being particularly shocked or very emotional about it,” she says. “In fact, he seemed cool as a cucumber. He just made it clear to me that he wasn’t going to talk about it.”

The following morning she continued to press for details. “I asked him again if it was really true and he said, yes, it was.” When she asked what the UFO looked like, he explained that “if you took two saucers and put them together, that’s what it looked like.” On the top layer, he told her, there were oblong-shaped windows all the way around the craft. And, no, he said, he had not looked inside the crashed ship.

“I asked him if there was anybody on it. He said, ‘I can tell you this much: There were three people. One was dead and two were still alive. I can’t tell you anything more.‘”

It was not until several days later that Sergeant Robbins finally agreed to drive his wife out to the crash site. By then, all debris had been cleared away and neither a spaceship nor signs of military personnel was evident. “He didn’t say much of anything until we got to a place where there was this big burned spot, a perfect circle so black that it was shiny. No normal fire could have made something like that.” It was, she says, as if the sand had been melted and turned into a sheet of black glass.

“This,” Sergeant Robbins said, “is where I was for 18 hours.”

“On the drive home,” she says, “I asked him what happened to the spaceship, what happened to the people who were on it. Her husband’s reply: “I can’t tell you that; don’t ask me any more.”

It was the last time her husband spoke of “the Roswell incident” until long after he’d retired from the service. Until his death of a heart attack two years ago, he never told his wife who was with him that night or what role he had played.

Following his retirement from the Air Force in 1961, they moved to Saginaw, near Fort Worth, and he worked first for General Dynamics, then LTV, as an aircraft repairman.

“It was years later, when our kids were in high school, that our son Ronald was working on some kind of report on unidentified flying objects and asked his father to tell him about what happened back in Roswell. He didn’t say much, basically just what he’d told me years earlier,” she says.

“But you know how kids are. Ronald kept asking questions, like what the men found at the crash looked like. Finally, Papa [as she referred to her husband throughout their 57-year marriage] got a pencil and drew this pear-shaped head with large black eyes. Their skin, he said, was brown and they had no nose, no mouth.

“When Ronald asked him what their bodies looked like, all he would say was, ‘Son, you don’t want to know about that.‘”

The Robbins’ son, now living in Arizona, could not be reached by the Dallas Observer. “He wouldn’t talk to you about it, anyway,” his mother insists. Neither of her children, in fact, has ever spoken publicly of their father’s alleged involvement in the Roswell incident. “Barbara, my daughter, tells me, ‘Daddy’s dead, don’t bring it up.‘”

“All I remember,” says Barbara Wattlington, “was Dad saying he was stationed in Roswell and that a UFO crashed there.”

The last time Ann Robbins remembers any conversation about the matter was a few years before her husband’s death in January 2000, when they sat in their Saginaw living room one evening, watching television. A show whose title she can’t recall was on, re-creating the Roswell event and posing the question of whether it was an ageless hoax or the well-hidden truth. “I asked him, ‘Was it a hoax?’ and all he said was, ‘It’s the truth. It did land.’

“I asked him, ‘Well, if it did, where is it?’ He again said he couldn’t tell me that.”

Her husband, she says, was never one to embellish or lie; neither prankster nor teller of tall tales. “He was a good, Christian man. He loved the military and his country and never spoke bad about either.” No, she says, he would never have made up such a story. Nor, if ordered not to, would he have ever talked of matters he was told to keep secret. “That’s just the way he was,” she says. “On the day he died, the last thing he told me was that he wanted me to promise to fly the flag in front of our house until I drew my last breath.” Though she insists she has never researched the numerous theories of the Roswell crash presented in the countless books or documentaries, she does admit that she has lingering questions she hopes will one day be answered. “That UFO they found didn’t just fly away,” she says. “So where is it? And what happened to the people on it? I still say the Air Force knows what happened. Someday, I hope, we might find out the truth.”

Two years ago she did get an answer to one question that had long bothered her. “I could never figure out why an airplane repairman would be called out in the middle of the night to participate in the investigation of a crashed UFO,” she says. Only after filing her husband’s death certificate with military officials in Washington, D.C., did she learn that he had intelligence clearance during his Roswell tenure.

Still, if Ann Robbins had embarked on a thorough study of the massive collection of research done on the fabled Roswell crash, she would not find her husband’s name among any of the “witnesses” who have come forward over the years. Yet the sketchy details he gave her generally mesh with most of the reconstructed stories found in the ever-growing volume of literature devoted to the crash investigation.

[…]

Investigators’ notes and comments:

James Moseley:

TIDBITS OF TRASH

The lead story in the May issue of the MUFON UFO Journal brings us still another new (although dead) Roswell witness. The 84-year-old widow of Sergeant Ernest Robbins is now saying that her late husband, though a mere sheet metal repairman, was called out to observe the wreckage of the famed Roswell saucer, in early July of 1947. His version, as told to her, gives us three aliens - one dead, one injured, and one who “seemed to be okay”. These numbers differ from all other accounts.

Most interestingly, the saucer left behind a large burned area in the shape of a perfect circle. This sets your editor to recalling how, circa 1955, he used gasoline to burn a circle on the surface of the desert near Lima, Peru. A photo of said editor pointing to said circle was thereafter printed on the front page of a mass-circulation Lima newspaper called “Ultima Hora”. This leads us to speculate that real UFOs don’t leave burned circles behind. Case dismissed!

Gregory Guttierez:

In a copyrighted news item, Guttierez says that the latest “Saucer Smear” magazine by James Moseley, an ancient of ufology very close to Gray Barker, with the help of Karl Plock who he says write the most skeptical book about Roswell, says that a new witness of the Roswell incident was found but was already dead. He writes that the dead witness Sergeant Ernest Robbins was only a “sheet metal repairman” and that Moseley says the number of 3 aliens is in contradiction with other recovered aliens stories.

Unidentified Frenchman poll:

In 2006, an anonymous Frenchman circulated on several ufology Internet discussion lists a long questionaire where he asked people to answer by Yes or No to various questions. Most of the questions related to Roswell incident testimonies and asked if it is credible or not. Many but not all of the testimonies were incorrectly cited or out of context, part came from my website and other parts from books, and many questions were mixed together so that it was impossible to accurately answer with either a Yes or a No. I filled que questionnaire and sent it to its author’s email address and have heard nothing of it again, not even a “thank you”. I asked the discussion group who else answered and what the answers were, but apparently nobody had cared to answer.

In that questionnaire was:

Page 339 also, The testimony of Ernest Robert Robbins, deceased in 2000, a the time a young sergeant in Roswell.

I indicated to the author of the questionnaire that to my knowledge, Ernest Robert Robbins did not testify, but his wife apparently did according to an article in the Dallas Observer.

The indicated “page 339” refers to the Gildas Bourdais book “Roswell - Enquêtes, secret et Désinformation”, JMG publisher, 2004, in which the say of Ann Robbins is correctly summarized, and in which her say is not presented as a “testimony of Ernest Robert Robbins” but very clearly as a testimony of his widow Ann Robbins.

  • Source: “Roswell en questions , a questionnaire sent around and that was published on the web at some places such as at www.spica.org/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=1164 (note: the SPICA group is not the questionnaire authors, they just provide it as a service.)

Webmaster’s notes:

This is all just typical!

One Frenchman obviously convinced that an alien spaceship and bodies were actually recovered near Roswell in 1947 presented with no information “the testimony of Ernest Robert Robbins”. But there is no such testimony. It was his wife who made statements, apparently to a journalist of the Dallas Observer in 2003.

James Moseley makes some fun at the story, as usual. Some questionable statements appear: Ann Robbins did apparently not say that her late husband was a Sergeant and “a mere sheet metal repairman”; she actually said that he was a Technical Seargent with an intelligence clearance and “a sheet-metal man who repaired planes”

James Moseley’s comment on how he faked a “saucer landing” by burning grass looks nice but is utterly nonsense when one refers to what was said by Ann Robbins. she did not talk of a circle of burnt grass, but of a …

… big burned spot, a perfect circle so black that it was shiny. No normal fire could have made something like that.” It was, she says, as if the sand had been melted and turned into a sheet of black glass.

This is hardly th description of a circle of burnt grass.

Gregory Guttierez then put out a French-speaking news release about Moseley’s article and provided reference to Moseley’s newsletter.

What seems pretty obvious here is that nobody cared to investigate Ann Robbins’ say at all, at least as far as I know.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossJuly 27, 2006First published.

Art McQuiddy

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/artmcquiddy.htm

At the time of the incident, Arthur McQuiddy was the Managing Editor of one of the two Roswell local newspaper, The Roswell Morning Dispatch.

(1) My name is Arthur R. McQuiddy

(2) My address is: [Blackened out]

(3) I am employed as: - , (X) retired

(4) In July 1947, I was editor of the Roswell Morning Dispatch, one of the two newspapers here at the time. In 1948, I left the paper to become public relations director of the New Mexico Oil and Gas Association and later joined U.S. Steel as director of media relations. About eleven years ago I returned to Roswell after retiring as senior vice president for corporate relations at International Harvester.

(5) Just before noon one day early in July 1947, Walter Haut, the public relations officer at Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF), brought a press release to me in the Dispatch office. The release said a crashed flying saucer had been found, taken to RAAF, and sent on to another base.

(6) Haut had been to the two local radio stations, KGFL and KSWS, before coming to the Dispatch, so I gave him a bad time about that. Haut said the base policy was to rotate who got releases first to make sure everyone got a ir shake. We were a morning paper, so our edition for that day had long since hit the street, but I was disappointed at not being able to break the story on the Associated Press wire. George Walsh, the program manager at KSWS, had already moved the story on AP.

(7) Not long after Haut left, a call came from RAAF. The caller said the release was incorrect, that what had been thought to be the wreckage of a flying saucer was actually the remains of a radiosonde balloon. However, the AP wire story had gotten the world’s attention. I spent the rest of the afternoon taking long distance calls from overseas news editors. I remember calls from Rome, London, Paris, and Hong Kong.

(8) Colonel William H. (“Butch”) Blanchard, commander of RAAF and its 509th Bomb Group, was a good friend of mine. We often got together for a drink and off the record discussions of base-town relations and the like. After the flying saucer incident, I tried several times to get Blanchard to tell me the real story, but he repeatedly refused to talk about it.

(9) About three or four months after the event, when we were a bit more “relaxed” than usual, I tried again. Blanchard reluctantly admitted he had authorized the press release. Then, as best I remember, he said, “I will tell you this and nothing more. The stuff I saw, I’ve never seen anyplace else in my life.” That was all he would say, and he never told me anything else about the matter.

(10) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: Arthur R. McQuiddy
Oct. 19, 1993

Signature witnessed by:
Charlotte Y. Gipson, 10-19-93

Art McQuiddy made the following recorded statement on camera in 1995 for the TV documentary “Secret History: The Roswell Incident”:

In the Roswell incident chronology on the NICAP Website, it is noted that Art McQuiddy said that a military officer had retrieved the copies of the press release written by Walter Haut.

B. A. Tillery

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/batillery.htm

Roswell 1947 - Involved people

B. A. Tillery

(B. A. TILLERY).No photo

Biography:

All that seems to be known biographically speaking about Miss B. A. Tillery is that she probably lived in Newcomb, a trading post on the Navajo Reservation north of Gallup, New Mexico. The information is from a newspaper of July 1947.

In the newspapers:

This article has been published in the newspaper “The Gallup Independent”, Gallup, New Mexico, page 1, on June 30, 1947.

Daytime ‘Star’ is Seen at Newcomb

Miss B. A. Tillery of Newcomb Trading post on the Navajo reservation north of here, has joined the ranks of those claiming to have seen unexplained glowing objects in the sky.

In a letter to the Gallup Independent Miss Tillery writes:

“My mother and I feel reasonably sure that is what we saw at 6:30 or 7:00 o’clock Wedeneday evening, June 25.

“When we first saw the shining disc, I said “What! a star in borad daylight?” However we soon decided against this because aside from being improbable, it was too large for that. In a short time it had disappeared into the southeastern sky, leaving us baffled until we began hearing these reports.”

Earlier, Art Roberts, Gallup barber, reported seeing one sweep in from the northeast about 10:30 p.m. Friday and disappear quickly over the southern horizon.

The article below was published in the newspaper The Clovis News-Journal, Clovis, New Mexico, page 1, on June 30, 1947.

Another Reports Seeing Mystery Objects In Sky

GALLUP. AP. — Miss B. A. Tillery of Newcomb, trading post on the Navajo reservation north of here, has joined the ranks of those claiming to have seen unexplained glowing objects in the sky.

In a letter to the Gallup independent, Miss Tillery writes:

“My mother and I feel reasonable sure that what we saw about 6:30 or 7:00 o’clock Wednesday evening, June 25.

“When we first saw the shining disc, I said “What! a star in broad daylight?” However we soon decided against this because aside from being improbable, it was too large for that. In a short time it has disappeared into the southeastern sky, leaving us baffled until we began hearing these reports.”

Earlier, Art Roberts, Gallup barber, reported seeing one sweep in from the northeast about 10:30 p.m. Friday and disappear quickly over the southern horizon.

The article below was published in the newspaper Las Cruces Sun-News, Las Cuces, New Mexico, USA, page 2, for June 30, 1947.

Transcription:

Northern N.M. Woman Sees ‘Shining Disk’

Miss B. A. Tillery of Newcomb Trading post on the Navajo reservation north of here, has joined the ranks of those claiming to have seen unexplained glowing objects in the sky.

In a letter to the Gallup Independent Miss Tillery writes:

“My mother and I feel reasonably sure that is what we saw at 6:30 or 7:00 o’clock Wedeneday evening, June 25.

“When we first saw the shining disc, I said “What! a star in borad daylight?” However we soon decided against this because aside from being improbable, it was too large for that. In a short time it had disappeared into the southeastern sky, leaving us baffled until we began hearing these reports.”

Earlier, Art Roberts, Gallup barber, reported seeing one sweep in from the northeast about 10:30 p.m. Friday and disappear quickly over the southern horizon.

Researchers notes and comments:

David Rudiak:

UFO researcher, Roswell incident investigator and physicist David Rudiak found that Mrs or Miss B.A. Tillery appeared in several newspaper has having reported have seen with her mother and object that looked like a large glowing star but in broad daylight. It disappeared in a short time in the southeastern sky.

It happened on Wednesday, June 25, 1947 between 6:30 and 7:00 pm in the Navajo Reservation north of Gallup, New Mexico.

David Rudiak indicates the newspaper sources:

  • The Gallup Independent, of Gallup, New Mexico, June 30, 1947.
  • The Las Cruces Sun-News, of Las cruces, New Mexico, June 30, 1947.
  • The El Paso Herald-Post, of El Paso, New Mexico, June 30, 1947.
  • The Santa Fe New Mexican, of Santa Fe, New Mexico, June 30, 1947.
  • The El Paso Times, of El Paso, New Mexico, July 1, 1947.
  • The Albuquerque Journal, of Albuquerque, New Mexico, July 1 and July 2, 1947.

Other information:

Journalist Leslie Linthicum of the Albuquerque Journal, in a 1997 article, before providing 6 witnesses accounts, also refers to the numerous sightings of that time, noting that the skies above New Mexico were not immune, and quoting the Albuquerque Journal, for July 1, 1947:

“Another witness of the mysterious ‘dipping discs’ in New Mexico was reported today,” “She was Miss B.A. Tillery of Newcomb, a trading post on the Navajo reservation.”

Source:

  • “Six New Mexicans directly affected by the crash of what was first called a UFO, then a weather balloon, share their memories of the event 50 years ago ”, article by Leslie Linthicum, Albuquerque Journal, 1997.

Webmaster’s notes:

In the current state of information, it is hard to discard the possibility that Miss B. A. Tillery and her mother saw reflections on an airplane, for example.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossNovember 8, 2005First published.
1.0Patrick GrossMay 3, 2017Addition of the newspaper articles in the Clovis News-Journal, Gallup Independent, Las Cruces Sun-News, for June 30, 1947.

Barbara Dugger

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/barbaradugger.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Barbara Dugger

(Barbara DUGGER). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Barbara Dugger, a schoolteacher, is one of the two granddaughters of the late George Wilcox, Chaves County Sheriff in Roswell at the time of the incident.

George Wilcox family members involved in the affair:

George Wilcox : Chaves County Sheriff at the time of the incident.
Inez Wilcox : his wife.

Two daughters of George Wilcox:
Phyllis McGuire
Elizabeth Tulk - Her husband: Jay Tulk

Grandchildren of George and Inez Wilcox:
Barbara Dugger
Christine Tulk

Affidavits:

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is Barbara Dugger.

(2) My address is: [-]

(3) I am employed by: [-]

(4) My grandmother was Inez Wilcox, and my grandfather was George Wilcox, who was the Sheriff in Chaves County, New Mexico, in 1947. I live with my grandmother while I was teaching at the New Mexico Military Institute. I was 24 years old at the time.

(5) One evening, while we were watching a TV program about space, my grandmother told me that in the 1940s, there was a spacecraft — a flying saucer — that crashed outside Roswell. She told me not to tell anybody, because when the event occurred, “the military police came to the jailhouse and told George and I that if we ever told anything about the incident, not only would we be killed, but our entire family would be killed.” I said, “Did you believe them?” she said, “What do you think? They mean it, Barbara, they were not kidding.” She didn’t remember the names of those involved, however, she said it was Air Force personnel who threatened them. She never told anyone else in the family about the event, even my mother, Elizabeth Tulk.

(6) She said someone had come to Roswell and told him about this incident. My grandfather went out there to the site; it was in the evening. There was a big burned area, and he saw debris. He also saw four “space beings”. One of the little men was alive. Their heads were large. They wore suits like silk.

(7) After he returned to his office, my grandfather got phone calls from all over the world — including England. MPs came to the jail. A lot of people came in and out of the jail at the time.

(8) She said the event shocked him. He never wanted to be sheriff again after that. Grandmother ran for sheriff and was defeated. She wrote an article about the event right after it happened to see if anyone else knew anything about it.

(9) My grandmother was a very loyal citizen of the United States, and she thought it was in the best interest of the country not to talk about the event. However, if she said it happened, it happened. Her state of mind was excellent at the time of this conversation. She was working in real estate. Grandfather had passed away by this time for hardening of the arteries. Grandmother passed away at the age of 93.

(10) I have not been paid of given anything or value for making this statement, which is the truth at the best of my recollection.

Barbara Dugger
(Signature)

2-24-95
(Date)

Signature witnessed by:
Veronica Garcia

This affidavit was published in Karl Pflock’s book, “Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe”, in 2001.

Interviews and public statements:

Barbara Dugger, granddaughter of George and Inez Wilcox, is on a videotaped interview in Recollections of Roswell Part II in 1991:

My grandmother was Inez Wilcox and my grandfather was George Wilcox, he was Sheriff in Roswell, New Mexico, at the time of the Roswell incident.

Alright, and you say you lived with your grandmother?

Yes, I lived with her, well I lived with her one whole year and when I taught at the New Mexico Military Institute and I lived with her 3 years and then off and on. She helped finance me and support me, because she wanted me to go to College.

Did she ever discuss the Roswell incident?

One evening we were watching TV and on TV there was something about space and my grandmother looked over at me and she said “Barbara, do you believe in anything, you know, outside of the Earth?” and I said “you know I do”, and she said “here is something that I’d really like to tell you, but I don’t want you to ever discuss it outside and never tell anybody.”

She just wrote an article one time and put “Flying Saucer” on it and all that’s all she had ever written down on a piece of paper.

And I said “Fine, what do you need to tell me?” And I thought it was going to be something completely different than what she told me and she said in the forties, there was a spacecraft, a flying saucer, that’s how grandma called it, that crashed outside of Roswell [?] and I said ”[?] How do you know?” and she said “your Grandfather George was Sheriff at the time, and I said “well [?] What’s more about it?” and she was very hesitant to talk about it but you knew this was in her, that she really needed to tell me and she said that quite a while [?] “I’m just going to tell you”. But she said “Don’t tell anybody and I said “who I am going to tell anyway, I don’t know anybody to tell it and she said the reason [?] is because when the incident happened, the military police came to the court house, to the jailhouse, and told George and I that if we ever told anything of the incident, talked about it in any way, not only they would be killed, but the family, they would get the rest of the family.

She was there and witnessed the police […]?

Yes, she was standing there with my grandfather. I said “Did you hear them say that?” and she said “Yes I did Barbara” and she said “That’s exactly what they told me” and I said “Why? What did you know?”

And did she tell you what?

Yeah, I said “What could you have known?” What happened is, that my grandfather said they called my grandfather, somebody called on the telephone and [?]

In the jailhouse?

Yes they met in the jailhouse. And someone came and told my grandfather of the incident that had happened outside of Roswell. My grandmother said that my grandfather went out there, to the site. Once he got out there, there was a big burned area. When he first approached the area, and then he saw debris, he saw debris, and he was alone, she was not with him, he went by himself. She said it was kind of like in the evening and that when he came back, she asked, you know, out of jokingness, did he see space beings? And he said “yes, there were four of them”, and I asked her, what did they [?]?

And she said they had, they were, like grey, that their heads were large, and the little suits they had on, you could, it was like er, silk or something, like that kind of material, they were gray, and I asked her “what happened after that?” and she said he came back into town and they, I guess they had discussed this incident, and they had thought it was fine to put it on to the news, to talk about it, and then, apparently, something happened and it was not okay.

And that’s when he started… Grandma said he got phone calls from all over the world, England, people were calling him talking to him asking him about the situation, and that he had been [?] he had gone out there and he’d seen the site and seen the situation that they had talked about and Grandma said [?] “you really believe [?] You don’t say anything, George, and if you do, you are dying and so are the children and [?]”

And I said “Did you believe it?” and she said “I believed it”.

You know, when someone tells you… and they have fear in their voice, and you’re talking to a person you really love and she was [?] and I believed her and I know she had been telling the truth. I knew she did and [?]

Investigators notes and comments:

Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner:

These researchers told that Kevin Randle interviewed Miss Barbara Dugger, granddaughter of George and Inez Wilcox. The sheriff had died when Barbara was quite young, but she lived with her grandmother while going to college and became very close to the elderly but still dynamic Inez Wilcox. According to Barbara, her grandmother said:

“Don’t tell anybody. When the incident happened, the military police came to the jailhouse and told George and I that if we ever told anything about the incident, not only would we be killed, but our entire family would be killed!” They called my grandfather and someone came and told him about this incident. He went out there to the site; there was a big burned area and he saw debris. It was in the evening. There were four “space beings.” Their heads were large. They wore suits like silk. One of the “little men” was alive. If she said it happened, it happened!

The grandmother said about the death threats:

“They meant it, Barbara - they were not kidding!” “She said the event shocked him. He never wanted to be sheriff again after that. Grandmother ran for sheriff and was defeated. My grandmother was a very loyal citizen of the United States, and she thought it was in the best interest of the country not to talk about it.”

The researchers say Inez Wilcox died not long afterward, at the age of ninety-three.

Source:

  • “Crash at Corona ”, book by Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner, Marlowe publishers, page 75, 1992.

Karl Pflock:

Karl Pflock said that according to her granddaughter Barbara Dugger, the Sheriff George Wilcox and his family were threatened at the time of the incident. Dugger learned it from her grandmother Inez Wilcox, who told her that “the military police came to the jailhouse and told George and I that if we ever told anything about the incident, not only would we be killed, but our entire family would be killed.”

Further on, Pflock said that Barbara Dugger, granddaughter of Sheriff George Wilcox, and his wife Inez, testified that her grandmother told her the Sheriff “went out to the site; it was in the evening. There was a big burned area, and he saw debris. He also saw four ‘space beings’. One of the little men was alive Their heads were large. They wore suits like silk.”

He said this come from “Recollections” and from an affidavit on file at the Fund for UFO Research.

Further on, he said that in a March 1991 interview, Barbara Dugger, whose mother Elizabeth Tulk was the daughter of Sheriff George Wilcox and his wife Inez, alleged that decades after the incident, her grandmother told her the military visited her grandparents at the Sheriff’s office and threatened that “if we (George and Inez Wilcox) ever told anything about the incident, not only would we be killed, but our entire family would be killed.”

Pflock comment that this is a standalone claim, suspicious because both Dugger’s mother and the Wilcox other daughter, Dugger’s aunt Phyllis McGuire, told Roswell researchers about their memories of the incident. McGuire was in the Sheriff’s office when the military arrived, and Tulk’s husband Jay came soon after, and the Tulks and McGuire never said anything about death threats. McGuire only remembered that Inez Wilcox told her the Army asked the Sheriff not to say anything further about the incident. Journalist Jason Kellahin too told that when he tried to interview George Wilcox on july 8, “Wilcox said the military indicated to him it would be best if he did not say anything.”

Pflock said Dugger’s second-hand testimony is unsupported and lacking credibility, and was given weeks after the “Unsolved Mysteries” TV show about the Roswell incident broadcasted tales of harsh cover-up measures by the military.

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe ”, book by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus Books publishers, pages 34,120,171-172, 2001.

Kevin Randle:

The author says that among the civilians who had information about alien bodies, there was Barbara Dugger, Sheriff George Wilcox’s granddaughter. She said that someone came and told her grandfather “about this incident that happened outside Roswell” The grandfather went out there and when he got there, there was a big burned area, and he saw debris.

Dugger said her grandfather said there were four bodies: “They were, like gray, and grandfather said their heads were large and the little suits they had on were like silk or something… The little people were lying on the ground… She said I think one of them was alive.

Dugger said the site visited by Wilcox was about 30 miles outside of Roswell, that there was a big burned area and debris scattered around.

Dugger said her grandmother had written something about her experiences in the late 1940’s, a part of an article about the time George Wilcox was the Chaves County sheriff and she was working in the jail as the matron.

Kevin Randle reproduces this; which said:

One day a rancher North of town brought in, what he called a “FLYING SAUCER”, there had been many reports all over the United States by people claiming they had seen a FLIYNG SAUCER. The rumors were in many variations, the saucer was from a different planet, and the people flying on it, were looking us over. The germans had invented this strange contraption, a fromible weapon. Other tales, that one had landed and strange looking people all seven feet tall or more walked from it, but quickly departed on sighting any on looker. All the players played the stories up, and many people searched the skies at night to catch sight of one. Sine no one had seen a flying saucer, Mr. Wilcox called headquarters at Walker Air Force Base [new name of RAAF] and reported the find. Before he hung up the telephone almost, an officer walked in. He quickly loaded the object into a truck and that was the last glimpse any one had on it.

Simultaneously the telephone began to ring, long distance calls from Newspapers in New York, England, France Government officials. Military officials, and the calls kept up for 24 hours straight. However, the Officer who picked up the suspicious looking saucer, admonished Mr. Wilcox to tell as little as possible about it and refer all calls to Walker Air Force Base. A secret well kept, for to this day, we never found out if it was really a FLYING SAUCER.

Kevin Randle notes that this was an addition to the original article as if it was added at a later time. He notes Inez Wilcox dies a few years after the publication of the book “The Roswell Incident”, and that there is no way to know if this was written prior or after the book’s publication.

Source:

  • “Roswell in the 21st Century ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Speaking Volumes publishers, 2016.

On his blog, Kevin Randle specifies that it was him and Donald Schmitt who interviewed Barbara Dugger, in early 1991.

Source:

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 14, 2017First published.

Bessie Brazel Schreiber

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/bessiebrazel.htm

Bessie was the daughter of rancher William “Mac” Brazel who found debris on the ranch he managed. She was 14 years old at the time of the incident.

AFFIDAVIT

Bessie Brazel Schreiber

(1) My name is Bessie Brazel Schreiber.

(2) My address is [retained]

(3) I am employed at ___ (x) I am retired.

(4) William [Mac] Brazel was my rather. In 1947, when I was 14, he was the manager or the Foster Ranch in Lincoln Count, New Mexico, near Corona. Our family had a home in Tularosa, where my mother, my younger brother Vernon, and I lived during the school year. The three or us spent summers on the Foster place with dad.

(5) In July 1947, right around the Fourth, dad found a lot of debris scattered over a pasture some distance from the house we lived in on the ranch. None or us were riding with him when he round the material, and I do not remember anyone else being with him. He told us about it when he came in at the end or the day.

(6) Dad was concerned because the debris was near a surface-water stock tank. He thought having it blowing around would scare the sheep and they would not water. So, a week or two later, he, Vernon, and I went to the site to pick up the material. We went on horseback and took several feed sacks to collect the debris. I do not recall just how far the site was from the house, but the ride out there took some time.

(7) There was a lot or debris scattered sparsely over an area that seems to me now to have been about the size or a football field There may have been additional material spread out more widely by the wind, which was blowing quite strongly.

(8) The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember measuring was about the same as the diameter of a basketball. Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on one side and rubber-like on the other. Both sides were grayish silver in color, the foil more silvery than the rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or three inches wide and had flower-like designs on it. The flowers were faint, a variety of pastel colors, and reminded me of Japanese paintings in which the flowers are not all connected. I do not recall any other types of material or markings, nor do I remember seeing any gouges in the ground or any other signs that anything may have hit the ground hard.

(9) The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil can be torn. I do not recall anything else about the strength or other properties of what we picked up.

(10) We spent several hours collecting the debris and putting it in sacks. I believe we filled about three sacks, and we took them back to the ranch house. We speculated a bit about what the material could be. I remember dad saying. “-Oh, it’s just a bunch of garbage.”

(11) Soon after, dad went to Roswell to order winter feed. It was on this trip that he told the Sheriff what he had found. I think we all went into town with him. but I am not certain about this, as be made two or three trips to Roswell about that time, and we did not go on all of them. (ln those days, it was an all-day trip, leaving very early in the morning and retuning after dark.) I am quite sure it was no more than a day trip, and I do not remember dad taking any overnight or longer trips away from the ranch around that time.

(12) Within a day or two, several military people came to the ranch. There may have been as many as 15 of them. One or two officers spoke with dad and mom. while the rest waited. No one spoke with Vernon and me. Since I seem to recall that the military were on the ranch most of a day, they may have gone out to where we picked up the material, I am not sure about this one way or the other, but I do remember they took the sacks of debris with them.

(13) Although it is certainly possible, I do not recall anyone finding any more of the material later. Dad’s comment on the whole business was “They made one hell of a hullabaloo out of nothing.”

(14) I have not been paid or given or promised anything of value to make this statement which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Bessie Brazel Schreiber

(Signature and printed name) (Date)

Signature witnessed by:

PAMELA J. CAREY
NOTARY PUBLIC
STATE OF WASHINGTON
COMMISSION EXPIRES August 1 1994

(Signature and printed name) (Date)

Under construction.

Under construction.

Beverly Bean

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/beverlybean.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Beverly Bean

(Beverly BEAN, Bev BEAN).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Melvin Brown was born on October 14, 1916, and died in 1986.

His social security number was 558-16-4292 and his Service Number was 6 578 751. In 1947, Melvin Brown was a Sargent and Cook at the Roswell Army Air Field.

Although Melvin Brown’s official military occupation was a cook and baker, it is said that he was also a decorated WWII veteran, including a Bronze Star, and that his service papers further list him as an expert marksman.

Melvin Brown has never said or written anything publicly related to the Roswell incident. However, his daughter Beverly Bean reported what he said, allegedly, about the incident in the family circle.

The information I was able to very are:

There is a Melvin Elmore Brown (Melvin E. Brown) who would have been 30 at the time of the incident. He was born on October 14, 1973, and died in February 1986. He is said to have been born in California; which his SSN confirms.

But for the “Bronze Star” medal, I found: “Melvin C. Brown”:

Name:Brown, Melvin C.
Date of birth:Unknown
Nationality:American
BRONZE STAR MEDAL (BSM)
Rank:Sergeant
Unit:Company K, 180th Infantry Regiment, 45th Infantry Division “Thunderbird”, U.S. Army
Action:For action performed on 21 September 1943, near Oliveto Citra/Province of Salerno, Campania region, Italy.
Details:Citation unavailable.
Information source(s):- Fisher, G.A., The Story of the 180th Infantry Regiment, Newsfoto Publishing Co., San Angelo, Texas, 1947

Source:

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Beverly Bean.

Investigators notes, interviews and comments:

Leonard Stringfield:

[…]

[…] Avoiding details, it seems goes with the business of covert work if one must talk at all. And so it was with another source who managed to whisper a few words on his death bed about his stealthy activity at Roswell in 1947.

The source, Bev, is British; her father, a former American serviceman, a staff sergeant who served and took up residence in England following duty in the Pacific theatre, WWII, and notably with the 509th Bomb Group, Walker Field, Roswell. According to records, he was at Roswell during the same time as Major Jesse Marcel and Captain O.W. Henderson. Bev, referred to me by Timothy Good, British author of Above Top Secret, is by the tone of her letters and phone calls sincere in trying to verify her dad’s alleged participation in the Roswell retrieval case. She sent me copies of all his military records which confirmed his assignment at Walker Field in Roswell. These included orders cut for hospitalization at the base for both he and Major Marcel and his pass to the base’s Non-Com Club dated July 1947.

As a child, Bev recalls her dad talking about his hush-hush work at Roswell and whenever he described the nondescript bodies her response was to giggle. The subject never came up much she said until she was a teenager. Once, she recalls, he had read a feature story in a newspaper about a UFO crash and looking grim he told about his experience of standing guard where the bodies were stored and cautioned all family members to keep it quiet lest he get into trouble. According to Bev’s long letter and attached military records, she recalled the following:

… He stood guard once outside a hangar where a crashed saucer was stored. He couldn’t see anything as it was all packed up and ready to be flown out to Texas the next day. We disagree on the number of bodies he saw. I’m sure he said two, but one of my sisters said three… All available men stood guard duty around the site where a crashed disc had come down and they couldn’t understand why they had to be kept cold, as there were trucks of ice… Although he and others were told they would get into trouble if they saw too much they did look under the cover and saw two small dead bodies. They said they were like us, but not like us. They were smaller than a normal man with large heads and slanted eyes. He also said they looked yellowish, a bit Asian… I remember when I got older and asked for more information he got angry and said “that’s all I know and I shouldn’t have told you that much.” Whenever he talked about it he always looked worried…

His last words, according to Bev, before he died in a hospital in February 1986 were about Roswell.

Source, and full article:

Behind scenes, several months after my initial contact with Tim, another door opened for me. Don Schmitt, Director of Special Investigations for CUFOS, also had been quietly digging into the Roswell affair, with telling results. Of special interest, I learned, new information had surfaced which not only tied in with Tim’s experience, but also with that of a former GI, who, living in England with his British wife and family, had been a part of the 509th retrieval team at the crash site. Of note, he told one of his daughters that he had seen three recovered bodies. (See Case 11, in my Status Report V: Walt Andrus also met with the English widow and her two daughters in London on July 15,1989.)

Source, and full article:

UFOBBS:

5.10 Melvin Brown’s Daughter

(Sergeant Melvin Brown was a cook at Roswell AAF in 1947. One day, he was called out to help guard material retrieved from the Foster Ranch. His daughter Beverly was interviewed by Stanton Friedman in 1989.)

When we were young, he used to tell us stories about things that had happened to him when he was young. We got to know those stories by heart and would all say together, “Here we go again.”

Sometimes, but not too often, he used to say that he saw a man from outer space. That used to make us all giggle like mad. He said he had to stand guard duty outside a hangar where a crashed flying saucer was stored, and that his commanding officer said, “Come on, Brownie, let’s have a look inside.” But they didn’t see anything because it had all been packed up and [was] ready to be flown out to Texas. He also said that one day all available men were grabbed and that they had to stand guard where a crashed disc had come down. Everything was being loaded onto trucks, and he couldn’t understand why some of the trucks had ice or something in them. He did not understand what they wanted to keep cold. Him and another guy had to ride in the back of one of the trucks, and although they were told that they could get into a lot of trouble if they took in too much of what was happening, they had a quick look under the covering and saw two dead bodies, alien bodies.

We really had to giggle at that bit. He said they were smaller than a normal man, about four feet, and had much larger heads than us, with slanted eyes, and that the bodies looked yellowish, a bit Asian-looking. We did not believe him when we were kids, but as I got older, I did kind of believe it. Once I asked him if he was scared by them, and he said, “Hell no, they looked nice, almost as though they would be friendly if they were alive.”

Source:

Note: this “UFOBBS” File is actually the exact copy of the information in the book “Crash at corrona”, by Stanton Friedman, Marlowe publishers, page 128, 1992.

Timothy Good:

Timothy Good said he interview Beverly Bean in 1988.

According to Timothy Good, Beverly Bean told that Melvin Brown saw an article about the Roswell incident in the newspaper London Daily Mail in the late seventies, and told his family: “I was there!”

Melvin Brown said to his family that the newspaper article told essentially a true story. Tim Good adds that Brown was sent to the location where alien bodies have been found and he was told not to look and not to speak of the remains and bodies which were put on refrigerated trucks. Brown is said to have been ordered to drive one of the truck, accompanied by another soldier, back to RAAF and “take this stuff to a hangar.” Good writes that despite the orders, Melvin Brown lifted a cover on the back of the truck and saw “two or possibly three bodies.”

Source:

  • “Alien Contact ”, book Timothy Good, William Morrow and Co publishers, New York, page 99, 1993.

The book “Alien Contact” by Timothy Good, includes more Beverly Bean statements and some of Melvin Brown’s military records.

Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner:

Stanton Friedman says he interviewed Beverly Bean on 1989. She told him that her father…

”… had a quick look under the covering and saw two dead bodies… alien bodies.”

Beverly Bean said her father described the alien bodies as

”… smaller than a normal man, about four feet, and had much larger heads than us, with slanted eyes, and that the bodies looked yellowish, a bit Asian-looking.”

Source:

  • “Crash at Corona ”, book by Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner, 1992.

Donald R. Schmitt:

An audio recording of Beverly Bean is available on:

  • “UFO Crash At Roswell: An Audio Documentary ”, audio CD by Donald R. Schmitt, Baraka Foundation record label 1992.

(“Jointly sponsored by Donald R. Schmitt & Baraka Foundation, UFO Crash At Roswell tells the Roswell story through the words of the eyewitnesses.“)

CSICOP - Kal H. Korff:

In a CSICOP article Kal K. Korff writes that Sergeant Melvin E. Brown is “touted as a “witness” who saw alien bodies by Roswell authors Friedman, Randle and Schmitt, and Michael Hesemann and Philip Mantle (Beyond Roswell).”

He adds that Melvin Brown cannot be considered a witness since he died in 1986 and was never interviewed by UFO researchers. Indeed, the only “proof” one has that Brown was a “witness” comes from his daughter, Beverly Bean, who first made the claim years after his death. No other member of Brown’s family supports her claim. Kal K. Korff writes that he had checked Melvin Brown’s military file and that they revealed that “he was a cook who held no security clearance and never pulled guard duty.”

The Skeptical Enquirer article adds: “Also noted in the book are the blatant contradictions and changes in Beverly Bean’s various accounts.”

  • “What Really Happened at Roswell ”, article by Kal K. Korff, in Skeptical Inquirer magazine, CSICOP, July / August 1997.

Kal H. Korff:

In his book, Kal H. Korff insists that no researcher can claim that Sgt. Melvin Brown said anything since he died in 1986 and nobody interviewed him. He says that researchers have wrongly attributed statements to Melvin Brown, which are really statements attributed to Melvin Brown by his daughter Beverly Bean.

Kal H. Korff says that Beverly Bean contradicts herself in the sense that she told Timothy Good that her father first spoke of alien bodies he saw at Roswell when he stumbled upond the Daily Mail article, whereas she told Stanton Friedman that her father told her that he saw a man from outer space when she was a kid. To Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt, she said that her father told her about seing aliens at Roswell while the family was watching the moon landing on TV in 1969.

Kal H. Korff says that Sergent Melvin Brown was only a cook and could not have been involved in such a situation. He adds that “Pro-Roswell authors” have conceiled that the description of the alleged alien beings skin is yellowish-orange, “because it does not “jive” with the descriptions of their other “witnesses,” who have consistently stated that the aliens skin was gray.”

Source:

  • “The Roswell UFO crash, what they don’t want you to know ”, book by Kal H. Korff, Prometheus publisher, USA, pp 81-86, 1997.

Karl T. Pflock:

The researcher first says that Melvin Brown, a cook in Roswell in July 1947, told his daughter Beverly Bean and her family that he had been posted as a guard on July 8, 1947, both at the scene of the crash and at a hangar. That night, when Brown and his squadron commander looked into the hangar, they only saw a sealed crate.

Further on, Pflock says that according to a narrative attributed by his daughter Beverly Bean to the late Sergeant Melvin Brown, the strange bodies found at the crash site were placed on ice and returned to the base in the afternoon by truck. Bean said his father was a member of the recovery team on the crash site. He allegedly returned to the base in the back of a truck, where he had seen the bodies, disobeying commands by lifting a tarpaulin. Bean said that at the base, her father was stationed in a detachment as a guard where the bodies had been temporarily stored.

Further on, Pflock repeats this, commenting that no other testimony or evidence corroborates it, and that, moreover, the description of the bodies which Beans attributes to her father is incompatible with that of other alleged witnesses. He concludes that the testimony, although interesting, does not provide guarantees to those who want to believe that bodies have been found.

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenient facts and the will to believe ”, bookby Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus books publishers, USA, pages 31,102,120, 2001.

Thomas Carey and Donald Schmitt:

The authors say one of the earliest examples of a deathbed confession about the Roswell incident was made by late Seargent Melvin E. Brown, who was with K Squadron at the time of the incident. He took the first manned landing on the moon in July of 1969 as an impetus to tell his family the truth about Roswell, but they were reluctant to believe him.

His wife and two daughters remembered his stern warning not to tell anyone else because “Daddy will get into trouble.” His family still fears government reprisal should they say too much.

Brown was on his deathbed in 1986 just outside London, England, and his daughter Beverly Bean said that her father then talked about Roswell exclusively. He reiterated over and over that “it was not a damn weather balloon.” Brown’s wife and oldest daughter still refuse to discuss the matter. Beverly Bean, however, wanted everyone to know what her father had told her with his own dying words, i.e.:

“It was approaching dusk when one other soldier and I were stationed in one of the ambulance trucks at the recovery site. Everything was being loaded onto trucks, and I couldn’t understand why some of the trucks had ice or something in them. I did not understand what they wanted to keep cold. Our orders were not to look under the canvas tarp in the back. The moment we had a chance, I pulled back the covering. There were bodies…small bodies…and they had big heads and slanted eyes.”

The authors say their source is an interview of Beverly Bean, in “Recollections of Roswell Part II”, Fund for UFO Research, Mt. Rainier, MD: 1992.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, New Page publishers, page 200, 2007.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 14, 2017First published.
1.1Patrick GrossMay 2, 2017.Addition of the Len Stringfield March 1989 article.

Bud Payne

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/budpayne.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Bud Payne

(Bud PAYNE, J. O. “Bud” PAYNE, J. O. PAYNE). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

I found that, among others, the Alamogordo Daily News newspaper from Alamogordo, New Mexico, on June 15, 1966, on page 3, refers to J.O. “Bud” Payne as a Lincoln County rancher.

I found that the “Lincoln County Elected Officials” list includes “J. O. Payne” as “County Commissioners” at least in 1972.

(See www.lincolncountynm.gov/lincolncounty/county_offices/clerk/uploads/officials.pdf)

Affidavit:

AFFIDAVIT

Bud Payne

(1) My name is Bud Payne.

(2) My address is []

(3) I am employed as PROBATE JUDGE. (x) I am retired.

(4) I am now a Lincoln County, New Mexico PROBATE judge and have been a Lincoln County commissioner, both elected offices. In 1947, I was a rancher and a neighbor of William “Mac” Brazel. Our ranch adjoined the Foster place, which Mac managed.

(5) When I heard about the flying saucer coming down on the Foster ranch a few days after it happened in early July 1947, I decided to see if I could get a piece of the thing. The site where the saucer came down was about two or two and a half miles east of the east boundary of our pasture. I drove over there in a pickup truck.

(6) Before I reached the site, I was stopped by two soldiers sitting in an Army truck parked beside the ranch road I was on. They were in field uniforms, and they may have been armed, wearing pistols. There were more vehicles and soldiers on higher ground beyond where I had been stopped.

(7) I told the two soldiers who stopped me I was going to where the flying saucer came down. They said ‘We know where you’re going, but you can’t go in there.” They did not threaten me, but they had their instructions to turn everybody back.

(8) I have not been paid or given or promised anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

[… Signatures…]

9/14/93

Investigators notes and comments:

Karl Pflock says that testimonies of Mac Brazel neighbors such as J. O. “Bud” Payne suggested that the dicovery of the “debris field” occurred on the first week on July 1947.

He says that J.O. “Bud” Payne, at that time a rancher and neighbor of Mac Brazel told him that when he heard…

… about the flying saucer coming down of the Foster ranch a few days after it happened in the early days of July 1947, I decided to see if I could get a piece of the thing… I drove over there in a pickup truck…

Before I reached the site, I was stopped by two soldiers sitting in an Army truck parker beside the road I was on… There were more vehicles and soldiers on higher ground beyond where I has been stopped.

I told the two soldiers who had stopped me I was going to where the flying saucer had come down. They said, “We know where you’re going, but you can’t go in there…” They did not threaten me, but they had their instructions to turn everybody back.

Karl Pflock indicates as source the affidavit (see above).

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenient facts and the will to believe ”, book by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus books publishers, pages 97, 99, 100, 269, 2001.

Bud Payne, a rancher in the Corona area, is chasing a stray cow As he crosses onto the Foster ranch, a jeep carrying soldiers roars over a ridgeline and bears down on him. He is carried from the Foster ranch. (Ref. 1)

Ref. 1 - The Truth About Roswell - Randle, Schmitt

Source:

Bud Payne, who was a judge in New Mexico, said that he had been out to the debris field but had been turned back by the military cordon. He did get close to it and this would be irrelevant, except he took me out to the location he thought was the debris field. When he stopped his vehicle and we got out, I nearly stepped on one of those little flags we had placed there. We have attempted to gather them all but had missed the last one. Payne took me to the same three quarter of a mile stretch of New Mexico desert and through this provided, to a degree, the size of the field.

Source:

BUD PAYNE

(Payne was a neighboring rancher. Payne said he tried to get on the debris field, but was turned away at the periphery by guards.)

(R&S1) Payne took them directly to the crash site. Bill Brazel had taken Schmitt and Randle to the northern end of it and Payne drove to the southern end. In fact, the expedition in September hadn’t removed all the flags they had planted. Payne stopped inside those flags, on the same three-quarter mile strip of New Mexico. It was further confirmation of the exact location of the debris field.

Source:

Sometime after that, Bud Payne, a Lincoln County judge who said that he had seen the military out there doing something, took us, meaning Don, Paul Davids, Robert Hastings, and me out to the site. As we got out of the truck, I looked down and saw one of the flags we had missed.

In other words, Bud Payne put us on the same stretch of New Mexican desert as did Bill Brazel. That would seem to confirm the location as given to us earlier.

Source:

- Why was Bud Payne, a hired hand on one of the neighboring ranches, physically removed from the Brazel ranch during the military occupation of the site? As Payne was attempting to round up a stray cow, a military jeep roared up to him and MPs physically forced him off the ranch.

Source:

  • “Roswell: 52 Years of Unanswered Questions ”, article by Donald R. Schmitt, Thomas J. Carey.

On July 9, as reports went out that the crashed object was actually a weather balloon, cleanup crews were busily clearing the debris. Bud Payne, a rancher at Corona, was trying to round up a stray when he was spotted by the military and carried off the Foster ranch. […]

Source:

Finally, there was Bud Payne who eventually became a judge in Lincoln County. He blundered into the area chasing some livestock that gotten away from him. In an interview with him in January 1990, he took a number of us including Don Schmitt, Paul Davids and me to the debris field that he had seen. Although the interview was not recorded, my notes say that he did say there had been a gouge, and we were standing on the same bit of New Mexico high desert that Bill Brazel had pointed out to us some months earlier.

Source:

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 8, 2017First published.

Charles Schmid

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/charlesschmid.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Charles Schmid

(Charles SCHMID).No photo

Biography:

Charles Schmid would be a member of the military, possibly in the Army Counter Intelligence Corp (CIC) who was at the same debris field than Sheridan Cavitt at the time of the incident. No confirmed biographical information was found by this webmaster so far.

Affidavits:

I did not locate any affidavit by Charles Schmid.

Interviews and public statements:

In a 1991 UFO documentary, a man captioned as Charles Schmid is filmed and interviewed and makes these statements on camera:

“There was pieces of material that looked like aluminum, real light stuff, but strong. It was about 16 inches by 2 1/2 inches and maybe a quarter inch thick. You couldn’t bend it or twist it or do anything with it. Even by putting it up against a rock and jumping up and down, you could not bend it.”

“There was some material that looked like wood, which I don’t know if it was or not. It was broke, but it wasn’t broke square, it was broke like a spear, off at an angle. It was about an inch thick, or an inch square [not audible], let’s put it that-a-way. It had some writing that looked like flowers on just one side. It had pink petals, centered like a flower [not audible], and green mixed in, but you couldn’t make no leaves out of it, or nothing like that. But it was green in between these flowers on that one side of this piece of wood.”

  • “UFOs, A Need to Know ”, video, directed by Bob Brown and Ted Oliphant, Video City Production, shot in 1991, released in January 1992.

The following statements attributed to Charles Schmid were found over the Internet via a search in 2005, as seemingly statements by Charles Schmid within the Disclosure Project by Stephen Greer:

“There was a slightly curved piece of metal, real light. It was about six inches by twelve or fourteen inches. Very light. I crouched down and tried to snap it. My boss [Cavitt] laughs and said, ‘Smart guy. He’s trying to do what we couldn’t do.’ I asked, ‘what in the hell is this stuff made out of?’ It didn’t feel like plastic and I never saw a piece of metal this thin that you couldn’t break.”

“This was the strangest material we had ever seen … there was talk about it not being from Earth. …A year later I was talking to Joe Wirth, a CIC officer from Andrews Air Force Base in Washington D.C. I asked what they had found out about the stuff from Roswell. He told me that they still didn’t know what it was and that their metal experts still couldn’t cut it.”

Source:

  • Found on several Internet forums. No reliable source indications.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossNovember 8, 2005First published.

Charles Forgus

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/charlesforgus.htm

Charles Forgus was reportedly a deputy to Sheriff Jeff Slaughter of Howard County, Texas, USA, in the 1940s, and a former military man.

One Deanna Short who is said to be a private detective would have been sent by British ufologist Philip Mantle to interview him, an interview filmed on video in 1999, and all this “came out” in 2017 with the release of a new book on the Roswell incident, “UFOs TODAY - 70 Years of Lies, Misinformation and Government Cover-Up ,” by Irena Scott.

After the 1999 interview of Charles H. Forgus appeared on the Daily Mirror in 2017, thousands of UFO and other websites started to claim he is a new witness of the 1947 Roswell crash; however, a MUFON investigation into his biography showed that 1947 is a very unlikely date for the events he reported on; which rather took plave - if the report is true - in 1953.

There is no affidavit by Charles Forgus.

The article below appeared on the website of the U-K. tabloid newspaper The Daily Miror on June 2, 2017, at:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/new-witness-to-roswell-ufo-10545902http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/new-witness-to-roswell-ufo-10545902

By Philip Mantle Steve Myall

13:25, 2 JUN 2017 Updated 14:32, 24 JUL 2017

Roswell UFO witness’ never-before-seen interview: ‘Soldiers hauled a creature away - he had big eyes like the one on TV’

In a never-before-seen interview, former US Deputy Sheriff Charlie Forgus says he was a witness to the UFO crash at Roswell in 1947

In July 1947 Sheriff Jess Slaughter and Deputy Sheriff Charles Fogus were travelling together to pick up a prisoner when they heard on their police radio reports of a crashed aircraft.

The two men, who were travelling to Roswell, New Mexico, decided to investigate and stumbled across the scene of one of the most famous UFO incidents in history.

While the US military have long claimed the crashed object was merely a weather balloon, conspiracy theorists believe the site was the scene of at least one alien aircraft crash and the recovery of extraterrestrials.

In a new book, UFOs TODAY - 70 Years of Lies, Misinformation and Government Cover-Up, law enforcement officer Fogus reveals he saw a downed flying saucer and military personnel removing a number of alien bodies from the scene.

It is the first time his statement has been published.

Deputy Sheriff Charles H Fogus of Howard County has striking testimony (Image: Irena Scott)

In the interview he says he say a flying saucer crashed into the side of a river bed which was “100ft across”.

Describing the scene he said: “When we got there, the land was covered with soldiers. They were hauling a big, a creature.

“The bodies must have been 5 feet tall.

“I saw the legs and feet on some of them. They looked like our feet.

“The skin was a brownish color… Like they were in the sun too long.

“There were soldiers there… about 3 or 4 hundred of them.

“We seen them haul them (the bodies) out there, out of the canyon up to the trucks… puttin them on the tow trucks so they could haul them.”

Charles Forgus said he saw alien bodies at the Roswell site (Image: Irena Scott)

He says after about 20 minutes they were told to leave the scene and so continued on their journey to collect the prisoner.

Deputy Sheriff Charles H Fogus of Howard County along with his colleague Jeff Slaughter saw the crash site at Roswell (Image: Irena Scott)

Asked what he thought of what he saw, he said: “The Great Father didn’t just make this planet… He made all of them. He put beings on these planets just like he put us on this one. They’re smarter then we are.

“They can get from there to here, but we can’t get from here to there.”

The Daily Mirror has been passed a transcript of an interview between Deputy Sheriff Fogus of Howard County, Texas, and Los Angeles private investigator Deanna Short by the book publisher Philip Mantle, a former Director of Investigations for the British UFO Research Association.

He said: “Deanna recorded the interview on video and later had a transcript done of the interview and completed her Agency report to verify facts at that time related to Charles Forgus and Sheriff Jess Slaughter - both of Howard County, Texas.

[Photo of empry desert scene captioned:
Scene of the Roswell incident as described by the former deputy (Image: Irena Scott)

“Both were there and were on an overlook to view the crash scene recovery by the Army.

“I should note that according to Deanna’s daughter Mackenzie, Charles made a special effort to note to Deanna “not to believe what others will say - he and the Sheriff did witness the Roswell crash scene”. They had heard about the crash on the police radio which enabled them to find the location.

“It is rare that anyone new adds anything to the Roswell event from an eye witness point of view.

“If you treat the Roswell UFO crash as a ‘cold case’ investigation then new testimony like this can be invaluable.

“It could confirm what other witnesses have previously said or it could be another potential witness that has been eliminated from the enquiry.

“So either way it is an invaluable piece of information. To have it on video as well is a real luxury. I remain open minded on this gentleman’s testimony but we hope that by making it public that others might be able to assist us in our investigations.

“I dare say many of those that know far more than me about the Roswell Incident will write it off as it does not fit the known Roswell crash scenario.

“All I will say is that I am working to try and find any more information and I leave this ‘Roswell File’ open. If anyone reading this has any information concerning the Roswell Incident we urge them to get in touch.”

[Photomntage of Brazell and Marcel on desert background with alien captioned:]
The Roswell incident has captured the imaginations of UFO experts for years (Image: Irena Scott)

The full transcript:

Questioner: What I’m trying to do is pierce together…

CF: I was working for the Sheriff of. I was a Deputy there for Sheriff Slaughter, was back in the 40s. We went to Roswell to pick up a prisoner. When we got there, the land was covered with soldiers. They were hauling a big, a creature. Hauling him away.

What I seen of him looked just like the one we see on television, with big eyes. There was a big round thing in the canyon. It was about 100 feet across. They put that on a truck and hauled it away. They wouldn’t let us get very close to it either. So we headed up to get the prisoner in Roswell and back to.

Q: So you were on your way from to Roswell to pick up a prisoner and you happened to be at that place…

CF: It already had crashed. They were taking them out. There were soldiers there… about 3 or 4 hundred of them. They wouldn’t let you get very close. They were keeping all the people away. People were coming out there.

[Iamge of the Roswell Daily Record frontpage captioned:]
A local newspaper report detailing the Roswell incident in 1947 (Image: Sipa)

CF: No, they went out when it banged into the wall in the creek. It was like a mountain on the side of the creek.

Q: Did you see any creatures: How many did you see?

CF: Yeh, I saw them. I think I seen about four (of them).

Q: Were they covered up?

CF: Mostly. I saw the legs and feet on some of them.

Q: What did the feet look like? Do you remember?

CF: They looked like our feet.

Q: Could you figure how tall they were? They were laying flat, Right?

CF: Yeh, There is one thing I do remember. The Great Father didn’t just make this planet… He made all of them. He put beings on these planets just like he put us on this one. They’re smarter then we are. They can get from there to here, but we can’t get from here to there.

(Note: CF is rather deaf. He wears two hearing aid appliances in this ears, so he answers my questions as follows :)

Q: Why do you think they’re here then?

CF: I don’t know where they hauled them. They might have hauled them to the hospital or somewhere.

Q: How long were you and Sheriff Slaughter at that site after you arrived?

CF: About 30 Minutes?

Q: Did you tell anyone about it?

CF: The Army was there and military soldiers were there.

[Photo of Jesse Marcel with radar taget in Ramey’s office captioned:]
Major Jesse Marcel from the Roswell Army Air Field with debris found 75 miles north west of Roswell, NM, in June 1947. (Image: AFP)

Q: Did they tell you not to say anything?

CF: No, they didn’t tell me nothing’. They wouldn’t let you get close to ‘em.

Q: Did they actually see you observing what was going on?

CF: Sure, they saw me lookin’ at them.

Q: And they didn’t tell you to not say anything…

CF: No, They wouldn’t let us get close to them. We were about 10 away.

Q: You were that close?

CF: We might have been further away. I didn’t have glasses then, I could see pretty good.

Q: What was your official capacity then?

CF: I was a Deputy The County Seat was I was riding with the Sheriff when we went to get the prisoner.

He didn’t order nobody except me to go with him. The UFO was already down when we got there. We went and got the prisoner afterwards. We heard about it on the radio.

Q: What did you hear on the radio?

CF: That the thing had crashed.

Q: But they didn’t know what ‘the thing’ was?

CF: No. But you would think that when people hear something like this, it scares the heck out of them. This came out of the police radio. We were on the way through there (to pick up the prisoner) when we heard it on the police radio. It was a big distance from to Roswell…you can look on a map and see it.

Q: So let me ask you this. When you guys were driving down the road and you were listening to the police radio…

CF: Yeh…

Q: Do you remember what was said on the radio about whatever it was… Do you recall?

CF: All I remember is they said that a saucer crashed out there in the canyon.

Q: They actually said the word ‘saucer’?

CF: They can call it a saucer if they want to but there ain’t a big enough cup of coffee for that thing.

Q: How long do you think you were at the site?

CF: Probably about 20 minutes. We seen them haul them (the bodies) out there, out of the canyon up to the trucks… puttin them on the tow trucks so they could haul them.

Q: Did anyone try to get you to leave the scene.

CF: No… they told the Sheriff that we had to go. That was good enough for us… He’s the boss.

Q: When they were taking the beings, we’ll call them beings, were the beings laying on the ground around the saucer?

CF: Yeh, they were lifting them up with a crane that they had and picking them up and swinging them to put them on the truck. The bodies must have been 5 feet tall.

Q: Did you see the heads?

CF: Yeh… they were covered. They eyes looked like the ones we see on television and the pictures of them.

Q: What color was the skin?

CF: As much as I could tell… the skin was a brownish color… Like they were in the sun too long.

Q: From the time it crashed until the time you got there, do you know how much time went by? From the time you heard it on the police radio until you got there?

CF: About two hours.

Q: Did you see any writing or engraving on the saucer?

CF: I wasn’t that close to it?

Deputy Sheriff Charles H Fogus pictured when he was still working (Image: Irena Scott)

Q: If you were say 12 feet away from the beings, how far were the beings away from the saucer. Were they thrown pretty far?

CF: We couldn’t see that well because of the trees. It was in a riverbank. It slammed into a river bank. I say them lifting one up with the crane.

Q: Did anyone else talk to you about what was going on?

CF: There were some solders, but I don’t think they were from the Air Force.

Q: Where do you think they were from then?

CF: I don’t know. They were wearing uniforms. I didn’t pay no attention cause I just wanted to go with the Sheriff to get the heck out of there before something happened.

Q: When you guys were in the car to go pick the guy up, did you discuss or talk about what you had seen with the Sheriff?

CF: No. I didn’t know what they were and he didn’t either or where they came from or nothin.

Q: Did you see any blood on the bodies?

CF: I don’t know… I guess they were dead.

Q: You’re 81 years old now. When and where were you born?

CF: I was born in I don’t know what city.

Q: You have been in the army?

CF: I sure have, before I became a Deputy Sheriff.

Q: So when this thing at Roswell happened, you were already out of the Army and were a Deputy Sheriff. That happened in 1947. Now it’s 1999. That was 52 years ago, Charlie. And you still remember it clearly?

CF: Yeh, pretty clear.

Q: Has anyone ever talked to you or asked you to talk about what happened…like to the Government, cause there’s a lot of research going on now because of the cover-up.

CF: There was one that came around, and I told him to shut up and not come around. I don’t know who they were. That was when I was Deputy Sheriff.

Q: When you saw the saucer, can you remember in your mind what it looked like. Can you draw it?

CF: No… you draw it?

(Note: Charlie had the interviewer draw because he broke his arm and can’t use it). He directed her to draw a circle (not an oval). Then he directed her to draw another circle with the circle. This was a drawing of the top of the saucer. Charlie was standing on top of the opposite side of the bank of the dry creek bed where the saucer had crashed.

Q: Were you standing above it?

CF: I was standing on the back side. The saucer hit the bank on this side of the creek and I was standing on the other side of the bank, at the top of the hill. I was looking down at the site.

Q: So you had a ‘bird’s eye view’, that’s why you were able to see the top of it?

CF: I didn’t have a ‘bird’s eye, I’ve got my own eyes (he laughs)

(showing Charlie the drawing the interviewer says “if this is the top (of the saucer), how much higher were you?”

CF: Probably about 20 feet above it.

Q: So, that’s why you saw the top (of the saucer). And you say, that from here to here (across the top of the saucer - diameter) is about 100 feet.

CF: It was evenly round.

Q: So it was absolutely round… Not oval shaped and you were 20 feet above it, that’s why you saw the top. Did you see the fingers and hands?

CF: No, they were covered up. But I saw the head.

Q: But you said you saw the feet.

CF: Yeah, later on, when they were passing by I saw the feet. I could see them lifting it up with the crane. They wouldn’t let you close enough when they were puttin’ them into the truck. When they were liftin’ them on the crane you could see them layin’ on that thing.

Q: You said the body was covered. Were the arms layin on the stomach under the cover?

CF: When the wind blew, the cover went back so you could see the face. The same way with the feet.

Q: So it was absolutely round… Not oval shaped and you were 20 feet above it, that’s why you saw the top. Did you see the fingers and hands?

CF: No, they were covered up. But I saw the head.

Q: But you said you saw the feet.

CF: Yeah, later on, when they were passing by I saw the feet. I could see them lifting it up with the crane. They wouldn’t let you close enough when they were puttin’ them into the truck. When they were liftin’ them on the crane you could see them layin’ on that thing.

Q: You said the body was covered. Were the arms layin on the stomach under the cover?

CF: When the wind blew, the cover went back so you could see the face. The same way with the feet.

UFOs TODAY - 70 Years of Lies, Misinformation and Government Cover-Ups by Irena Scott is out now on Amazon.

To contact Philip Mantle visit
http://flyingdiskpress.blogspot.co.uk/

Philip Mantle provides official document copies about C. Fogus, the transcript of the interwiew as it appear in the Daily Mirror, indicating that Mr. Charles Forgus statement was taken on Monday, June 21, 1999 at 11:30 A.M., and transcribed from audio cassette tape on June 22, 1999.

MUFON REPORT

REPORT ON MUFON SAT Case # 17MSAT01ROS-001

January 31, 2017

By SAT

PART ONE-DEPUTY FORGUS’S STORY

OVERVIEW

In 1999 a resident of Big Spring Texas gave a deposition to a private investigator claiming that he was a witness to the Roswell UFO crash in July of 1947.

Charles Forgus Jr. was born on January 28, 1918 and died in 2001. He would have been 29 years old in 1947 when the incident is alleged to have taken place. He called himself a Deputy Sheriff for Howard County.

His co-witness was Sheriff Jess Slaughter. Slaughter was born in 1896 per the 1940 census. His obituary states he was born in 1894 and died in 1972.

So in 1947 Charles Forgus was 29 and his Sheriff Jess Slaughter was 53. Logical ages for their positions.

Charles Forgus related that “in the 1940s” he and Jess Slaughter were travelling between Big Spring Texas and Roswell New Mexico to pick up and return a prisoner to Big Spring which is the Howard County Texas seat. Both Forgus and Slaughter lived in Big Spring.

In the New Mexico portion of the journey travelling west to pick up the prisoner, they came across a crash and debris site in the desert. They observed three to four hundred Army personnel scouring the crash site. They observed a crashed “circular” saucer about 100 feet in diameter. They also saw two dead bodies being loaded onto a truck. The disc was described as circular, metal and had a second circle within it possibly a cupola. They explained their vantage point was over a dry river/creek bed viewable from the highway. The saucer had crashed into the riverbank below. Their vantage point was approximately 20 feet above the embankment presumably from the highway.

They witnessed two corpses being loaded onto a truck. The corpses were covered with sheets but wind allowed the officers to see human type feet, brown skin, large eyes on the head and they approximated the bodies as being 5 feet tall.

It is suggested that they were fairly close to Roswell and actually returned with the prisoner and saw more of the clean-up operation. The operation went on for hours presumably during daylight.

MAIN PROBLEMS

There are three main problems associated with the 1999 interview of Charles Forgus Jr. He was interviewed by Los Angeles private investigator Deanna Short. Deanna recorded the interview on video and later had a transcript done of the interview and completed her Agency report to verify facts at that time. Deanna is now deceased.

First, unbelievably, the interrogator did not ask Mr. Forgus for a date (not even a year) nor did she ask the location of the incident such as what highway it occurred on or the name of a nearby town even! Ms. Short included an introduction to the interview where she states the witnesses encountered the incident in July of 1947 but there is nothing to base this on in the interview. As we shall see, it is more likely the witnesses encountered something in 1953 and not 1947.

Secondly, from the information Mr.Mantle, the person requesting MUFON’s assistance, initially provided to SAT, it appears Mr. Jesse Slaughter was a Sheriff in Howard County, Texas in the 1930s up to 1940. Subsequent follow-up by SAT revealed there is a gap of ten years until he was again elected Sheriff in 1951 (not 1953 as mentioned below).

I contacted the Howard County Texas Public Library and was sent this reply:

From: “Reference” [Email removed by PG]
To: “ROBERT” [Robert Spearing email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 6:34:10 PM
Subject: RE: reference request

Mr. Spearing,

I could find no listings for past sheriffs of Howard County. The attachment is an online search of the Big Spring Herald. What I can determine is that Jess Slaughter was sheriff in the thirties. Then lost the position in 1940 and later won re-election in 1953. Deputy C.H. Forgus became deputy under Sheriff Slaughter in 1953.

You can access the Big Spring Herald online and search the articles like I did. I could find no articles in the 1940’s listing Jess Slaughter as Sheriff. I found one article listing him as the Juvenile Officer. The caption below the picture at the bottom of the attachment provides a great deal of information if you can read it.

Johnny Schafer, Reference Librarian

Howard County Library

Big Spring, TX

This makes it unlikely that this was the Roswell crash of July 1947. 1953 or later is the best timeframe for the incident.

Lastly, while I found numerous direct line members of the Forgus and Slaughter families, all attempts to contact them via Facebook and telephone have been unsuccessful. It is my feeling that they do not wish to respond.

All indications are that they did not happen upon the Roswell Crash Incident. Mr. Forgus became a Deputy in 1953. Mr. Slaughter again became a Sheriff in 1951. Best estimate is affair happened in 1953.

The most important aspect of the story is that while no location is given we know from the transcript that the two men were travelling west inside New Mexico.

We also know that according to Google Maps there are only two principal highways between Big Spring Texas and Roswell New Mexico - a northern and a southern route.

[Map below captioned:] The two routes referenced in the MUFON report.

The Northern Route-

This route leaves Big Spring on a north-western trajectory and then turns due west to Roswell. The north-western leg of the route utilizes highway 87 north to highway 137 north. The turn westward uses Interstate 380 west for the remainder of the trip into Roswell. The important leg of this trek inside New Mexico from the Texas border to Roswell is approximately 85 miles on Route 380 west.

The Southern Route-

We leave Big Spring Texas heading due west on Route 176. At the Texas into New Mexico border route 176 becomes Rt. 234 and there are multiple routes to travel but in one good scenario described later, Route 234 west meets Route 18 North up to Hobbs and again goes west with Route 62 west to Route 529 west to Route 82 west to Route 285 north which brings you into Roswell from the South. It is this route that is the most promising.

The one caveat is that the Interstate Highway System was only under construction in the late 40s and early 50s. There may have been a more rural road in existence prior to the creation of Interstate 380. Therefore, some parameters may have changed such as location of the road and the elimination of certain landmarks such as a small dry creek bed with a 20 foot drop to the embankment by a large group of trees which is crucial to any continuing investigation.

THE SOUTHERN ROUTE SCENARIO

The critical question is what did the two law enforcement officers see?

Possible resolutions are:

Extraterrestrial Craft with non-human pilots
Military Exercise
Plane Crash (military or civilian)
American VTOL disc crash

[Artist impression image below captioned:] Depiction of alleged secret USAF circular VTOL experimental craft. (Credit: OpenMinds.tv/michael Schratt)

Since we no longer have witnesses to clarify their answers, perhaps the only avenue is to find a newspaper account. The southern route scenario offers a resolution.

In the case of Roswell in 1947, thousands of pages of documentation have been scoured including aircraft crashes. The best course of action in this investigation was to pursue leads in 1953 when Forgus became a Deputy Sheriff.

On August 28, 1953, the Reno Evening Gazette ran a small front page story on a military air crash that reads as follows:

ELEVEN AIRMEN ESCAPE IN CRASH

ROSWELL N.M. AUGUST 28, 1953 (AP)

Eleven airmen escaped unhurt last night when their 4 engined B-50 bomber landed wheels up on gently rolling plains 35 miles southwest of Tatum, N.M. in southeast New Mexico. The plane of the 97th bomber wing at Biggs Air Force Base, El Paso Texas and piloted by Chester A. Walter, was on a routine training flight.

[Photo captioned:] Boeing B-50D-95-BO (97th Bombardment Wing, early 1950s) (Credit: US Government/Wikimedia Commons)

[Photo captioned:] Boeing B-50D-95-BO (97th Bombardment Wing, early 1950s) (Credit: US Government/Wikimedia Commons)

If one draws a map southwest of Tatum, the closest highway it approaches on Mr. Forgus and Mr. Slaughter’s southern route is Route 62 west about 42 miles west of Hobbs N.M. and about 10 degrees south of Tatum. It is an almost perfect fit as it is approximately 36 miles southwest of Tatum.

This would coincide with their westward trip shortly before they turned north to Roswell.

There are problems with this August 28th story however. First, there were no dead bodies. All crew members survived. Second, the craft was not circular but had a plane’s fuselage. However, the front of the B-50 bomber had a very unique multi-windowed cockpit that seen straight on could have been construed as disc shaped.

Additionally, Forgus reported the object as 100 feet in diameter. The B-50 was 99 feet long. Coincidence? It was also silver metallic.

It is a stretch that the B-50 accident could have been the object seen by the lawmen but it is also quite reasonable given the circumstances given the color, cockpit shape, month and year etc.

One theory is that the B-50 crash story was only a cover story to obfuscate the real story of a crash of a disc shaped object; a crash where pilots (human or non-human perished).

It is also possible that if it was an American made VTOL disc shaped craft it was attempting to land on the highway but fell short due to mechanical difficulties. This would explain its proximity to the highway.

In 1967 evidence was located at McDill Air Force Base that VTOLS as large as 116 feet in diameter had been built by the U.S. Military.

An alien craft is unlikely in that it probably would not have wanted such a strategically unpleasant location to land if it was having difficulties. However, the two non-human pilot bodies, if accurate, pose a dilemma in this scenario.

RECOMMENDATION AND CONCLUSION

RECOMMENDATION

If there is a MUFON Field Investigator living in the vicinity of Roswell, it may be beneficial to have him drive Route 380 between the Texas border and Roswell to see if he can identify the place described in Mr. Forgus’s deposition.

If Route 380 can be ruled out, the roads between Hobbs, N.M AND Roswell N.M. should be travelled specifically Route 62 west to Route 529 west to Route 82 west to Route 285 north into Roswell to locate a small cliff and riverbed.

If a good location candidate can be found, an excursion to the area would be in order to try and retrieve artefacts.

In the event a FI cannot be enlisted, alternatives would include inquiring of the State Police or even tow truck company dispatchers in the Roswell area for the solicitation of information on a possible location.

CONCLUSION

It seems highly unlikely that Mr. Forgus was forging a story from untruths. His timeframe is off but it seems likely that he came across something unusual in the desert along with Mr. Slaughter. At times his story stretches the truth such as the sheet flapping in the wind allowing him to see parts of the two corpses. However, details such as that they were going to return a prisoner from Roswell to Big Spring are superfluous details a liar would not include.

Unfortunately, the 1999 private investigator did not attempt to get an exact year or location thus crippling efforts 18 years later.

It also seems more likely that the event occurred in 1953 when the U.S. Military was experimenting with Vertical Take off Landing (VTOL) disc shaped craft some of which were 100 feet in diameter and probably piloted by one or two airmen.

It would also be a stretch based on the limited evidence we have to suggest the most likely scenario would be the crash of an alien disc.

If the site cannot be found by a MUFON Field Investigator or other means, the case should be closed out as “INSUFFICIENT DATA.”

ROBERT SPEARING

January 31, 2017

- End of MUFON Report -

Chase Brandon

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/chasebrandon.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

The story:

In July 2012, a man calling himself Chase Brandon, claiming to be former CIA agent who was tasked with manipulating the entertainment industries from 1996 onwards in order to instill in them the ideas matching the agenda of the intelligence agency, told to the web site “Huffington Post” he had found a “box” labeled “Roswell” in the CIA’s resticted-access historical archives.

He said that, intrigued by this label, he opened the box and found documents, photographs of extraterrestrial corpses, which made him exclaim “my god, it was true”, in the sense: - it is true that there was, he had always thought - a “crash” of an extraterrestrial craft and its occupants, near Roswell in 1947.

He did not want to tell the “Huffington Post” interviewer what the documents and pictures described exactly, assuring: “I will never tell anything more to anyone”.

He made these statements on July 8, 2012, to Lee Speigel of the Huffington Post. He located the famous box in a room with restricted access at the CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, called “Historical Intelligence Collection.” The article can be found at:

The story appears on many English-speaking websites, and also French-speaking websites. For example, in “maxiscience.com”:

or “planet.fr”:

While he was featured in the Huffington Post article as “The CIA’s First Entertainment Industry Liaison,” so the first (chronologically or hierarchically?) CIA’s liaison officer to the entertainment industry” , neither I nor anyone else apparently found any official document to corroborate that he was even a CIA member. He claimed to have been a CIA agent for 35 years, until 2006. This lack of trace can of course be perfectly normal rather than proof that this job was invented.

Actually, his name is quoted as a CIA agents name in a few books, such as “How Seven CIA Officers Opened the War on Terror in Afghanistan” by Gary Schroen in 2005.

After his statements anout Roswell, journalist Bill Cox of the Herald Tribune intertogated, at a press conference, Robert Gates, former CIA director and former secretary of defense, taking the opportunity to ask the latter wether Chase Brandon’s claims should be believed. Robert Gates neither denied nor confirmed Chase Brandon’s claims about Roswell; which, he said, he had not heard before. However, it was clear that he had known Chase Brandon at the CIA where he was a martial arts instructor. Gates said he had “a lot of respect” for him. Asked about Roswell, Gates replied that although he thought he had all the possible clearances suring his 45-year career, he had never found the slightest evidence of a recovery of extraterrestrial craft of corpses - However, he was not asked if he had ever done any research on this matter specifically.

Source:

What was also apparent in 2012 is that Chase Brandon had written a fiction book of espionage and science-fiction, “The Cryptos Conundrum”, which he was promoting. The book includes a story of extraterrestrial contacts, and was hardly successful. He was preparing a second book, and he had a website - it disappeared later - at www.chasebrandon.com

He had participated as screenwriter or “technical consultant” in Hollywood espionage films in the years 1998-2003: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1260221

He claims to have participated in several such films: The Recruit, Sum of All Fears, Enemy of the State, Bad Company, Mission: Impossible III, Meet the Parents, Meet the Fockers, The Good Shepherd, Charlie Wilson’s War, Spy Game, The Interpreter and The Bourne Identity.

As it stands, it should be perfectly clear that what Chase Brandon, certainly indeed a former CIA agent, claimed, is for the moment not supported by any evidence and that the claim’s content is of extreme poverty.

It is perfectly possible that his bold but sparse statement about Roswell was a way of getting some fame in order to promote his future book, which has not been published since.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 2, 2017First published.

Chuck Wade

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/chuckwade.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Chuck Wade

(Chuck WADE).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Chuck Wade was born and raised in Corona, New Mexico. At the time of the Roswell incident, 1947, he was 7 years old and the son of Jesse Wade, the owner of the only bar in Corona. He received his Bachelors Degree in Civil Engineering from New Mexico State University and is the retired owner of Wade Building Co. in Gallup, New Mexico.

Affidavits:

None found.

Interviews and public statements:

Interview with Linda Moulton Howe:

Chuck Wade told in 2004 in an interview to investigator Linda Moulton How that…

“In 1935, Dad was going through Corona, stopped in at the bar and before the night was over, he was the owner of that bar. He and my mother ran that bar for 42 years, retiring in 1976. That’s where my Dad was the morning during the summer of 1947 when Mac Brazel drove up in an old pick-up truck, came up to my Dad and wanted Dad to go out to the Foster Ranch to see what in the world had crashed out there. He was very insistent that Dad go out there because there was stuff he had never seen before. But Dad was even more insistent and did not go.”

“My father suggested that Mac report this to Roswell because that was the closest military base and closest to him law enforcement. I do know that after Mac left the bar, he must have gone up to the Duboise Drugstore because I heard Geraldine Duboise tell me twice in the last three years that Mac made a phone call to Roswell telling them - and I don’t know who ‘them’ are - about something crashing out on his ranch.”

Radio interview with George Noory summary, 2004:

In a 4-hour special in December 2004, George Noory, in the L.A. studio of the radio broadcast Coast to Coast AM, broadcasting live from the UFO Crash Retrieval Conference in Las Vegas, interviewed several conference presenters. He summarized his interview with Chuck Wade:

“Chuck Wade presented information about Mac Brazel and Foster Ranch, purported site of a UFO crash in 1947. Wade said Brazel visited his father’s bar in Corona, New Mexico immediately after the crash and told him about it. In June 2004, Wade conducted a dig at the Plains of San Augustine, where he discovered unusual 50-year old metal pieces. Analysis revealed the metal to be composed of aluminum, iron and silicon. According to Wade, this kind of metal was not a made 50 years ago.”

Participation in the 2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrievel Conference, 2004

Chuck Wade

Debris from Two Crashed UFOs in New Mexico, 1947

In 1947, Mr. Mac Brazel discovered a considerable amount of debris of unknown origin on the Foster Ranch near Corona, New Mexico, my home town. Mac came to Corona to request my father to go out to the ranch and see what was there. My father declined. A couple of years later Mac’s son, Bill Brazel, showed some of this debris in my father’s bar in Corona, and shortly thereafter “the Government” came and confiscated this debris. About 1987, Loretta Proctor told my mother and me about Mac Brazel showing some of the debris to her husband, Floyd, and her. Loretta said this unusual debris would not scratch or burn. In March 2004, Mr. Art Campbell was a presenter at the UFO Symposium in Aztec, New Mexico. Art discussed some very unusual parts and pieces that he has, that may be from the 1947 UFO crash on the Plains of Saint Augustine in New Mexico. Art and I became friends and discussed sharing a “dig” at the Plains of Saint Augustine in June, 2004. This “dig” came off beautifully. Nine of us, using four, twelve-foot-tall A-frame structures, each with a 2’ x 3’ screen basket, sifted a considerable amount of soil. We were successful in retrieving a few pieces of metal foil (one piece about 50sq. in., and one piece that has two “seamed” edges), and a shard of “wax.” We are in the process of having the metal foil pieces analyzed. I presented a piece of this metal foil to Mr. Stanton Friedman to be passed on to the UFO Museum in Roswell, New Mexico, while he was on stage there at the Museum on July 3, 2004. The Museum is having this piece of metal foil analyzed.

Source of the above:

Investigators notes and comments:

Nick Redfern:

Nick Redfern was one of the presenter at the 2004 “2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrievel Conference.”

Chuck Wade gave a fascinating and very personal lecture concerning his family’s links with the Roswell story, some of the key players in the case, and his current attempts to try and locate and analyze debris from the crashes that may still lie buried within the sands of the New Mexico.

Source of the above:

UFORC:

Commenting on the conference:

“Debris from Two Crashed UFOs in New Mexico, 1947, by Chuck Wade - The audience was excited when Chuck displayed pieces from his “dig” in New Mexico on the plains of Saint Augustine. The metal is being analyzed.”

Source of the above:

  • Quote from “2nd UFO Crash Conference Huge Success: Conference Proceedings and Speaker DVDs Available Now , UFO Resource Center (UFORC) news service, Christopher Montgomery, editor in chief, 2004.

Skeptics of Las Vegas:

Commenting on the 2004 “2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrievel Conference”, the Skeptics of Las Vegas indicate that “according to Pahrump’s own Coast to Coast AM (www.coasttocoastam.com), this conference featured such compelling evidence of extraterrestrial visitation as the following” and have this comment on the presentation by Chuck Wade at the conference:

A second-hand report by Chuck Wade, who claimed that Mac Brazel visited his father’s bar in Corona, New Mexico immediately after the alleged UFO crash in Roswell and told him about it. Wade also conducted a “dig” on the Plains of Saint Augustine in New Mexico and reportedly was rewarded with several fascinating pieces of “foil,” one as big as 50 square inches (that’s about half the size of a standard piece of notebook paper - clearly the remnant of a crashed spaceship). Do I have to tell you that Wade and his tireless team of researchers are having this specimen “analyzed?”

Source of the above:

  • Quote from “Solved Mysteries - The official newsletter of the Skeptics of Las Vegas ”, Mark J. Chambers, Ph.D., editor, president, Skeptics of Las Vegas, Vol. 1, Issue 6, November 13, 2004, available at www.skepticslv.org/vol__1,_issue_6.htm

Chuck Wade metal foil, 2004:

Below: A picture of one piece presented by Chuck Wade at a 2004 UFO conference.

Note that the red line is no part of the object, it is just a laser pointer used at the conference when this debris was presented by Chuck Wade.

Notes:

Indications by Ryan S. Wood, as of year 2004:

The proceedings of the “2nd Annual UFO Crash Retrievel Conference” conference are available online at http://rd.bcentral.com/?ID=2363602&s=20637661 for 160. Individual DVDs can also be purchased online for $16.

If you need more information or would like to talk with Rian S. Wood personally please call 720-887-8239 or email rswood@majesticdocuments.com

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossMarch 13, 2005First published.

Dan Dwyer

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/dandwyer.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Dan Dwyer

(Dan DWYER).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to ufologists, Rose Dwyer was the daughter of Dan Dwyer, a firefighter of the City of Roswell. Frankie Rowe, aged 12 in 1947, was also the daughter of Dan Dwyer. Dan Dwyer was allegedly at the main site of the saucer crash with other Roswell firemen and police officers of the city of Roswell. Helen Dwyer Cahill was Frankie Dwyer Rowe’s elder sister.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Dan Dwyer.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no public statement by Dan Dwyer.

Investigators notes and comments:

Kevin Randle:

In regards to the Journal’s review of our The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell. I think there are a couple of points that demand clarification. First, the testimony suggesting that one of the beings survived the crash is all second hand. Frankie Rowe provided some of it, based on what her father, Roswell fire fighter Dan Dwyer told her.

Source:

  • Letter by Kevin D. Randle, in MUFON UFO Journal, #314, page 18, June 1994.

Philip Corso:

As the soldiers formed an arm in arm “search and rescue” grid, some on their hands and knees, to clean the area of any pieces of debris, devices, or chunks of wreckage, the huge retrieval crane that had been deployed from the air base hoisted the surprisingly light flying object out of its impact crater in the arroyo and swayed it above the long flatbed Ford that accompanied the convoy of army trucks. A small squad of MPs were deployed to face the civilian convoy of emergency vehicles quickly approaching the site. They fixed bayonets and lowered their Ml barrels at the whirlwind of sand directly in front of them.

On the other side of the skirmish line, Roswell firefighter Dan Dwyer, the radioman riding shotgun on the red Ward LaFrance pumper the company rolled that night along with the tanker, could see very little at first except for an oasis of white light in the center of darkness. His small convoy had been running lights but no sirens as they pulled out of the firehouse in the center of Roswell, rendez voused with the police car north of town, and headed out to the site to rescue what he had been told was a downed aircraft.

[…]

“Your guys can leave,” said the Captain to a Roswell police officer, “We secured the area.” “And the wounded?” asked the policeman. “No injuries, we have everything under control,” the Captain replied. But Dwyer could see small bodies on the stretchers loaded in the trucks. Two of them were in mortuary bags, but one was attached to his stretcher. The police officer saw this too. This one seemed alive. “And about them?” He asked. “Hey, load these things!” sSaid the Captain to the men loading the stretchers into the trucks. “You did not see anything tonight, officer!”

Dwyer, who knew Roswell’s staff, recognized Jesse Marcel. He also saw the debris behind the trucks. Dwyer got out of his truck and bypassed the line of soldiers in the dark area. There was so much confusion that Dwyer suspected that no one would pay attention to him while he would take a look.

He went behind a truck and looked straight into the eyes of the creature tied on the stretcher. It was no bigger than a child, he thought, but it was not a child. A head in the form of a balloon and disproportionate. It did not look like a human though it had humanoid characteristics. His eyes were large, black and slanted. Its ears were just small grooves on the sides of the head. Its mouth and nose were very small. The color of the creature was brown-gray and it was completely bald. It looked at him as if it were a trapped animal asking for help. It did not produce any sound but Dwyer realized it knew it was dying.

Dwyer could see the debris on the grount that came from the craft. He could see these debris scattered in the little crater and in the dark behind the spotlights. Soldiers on all four picked up all the debris in sacks. Others, in front of them, walked with metal detectors. It seemed to him that they were cleaning the area. Dwyer picked up a shining metallic piece in the sand. He took it in his fist and rolled it into a ball. Then he released it and the piece resumed its original shape, without any folds. He put this piece in his pocket and brought it back to the barracks to show it to his daughter.

A sergeant of the MP approached him and said, “Hey, what the hell are you doing here?” “I’m a member of the fire department,” he replied as innocently as possible. “Well you put your civilian ass in your truck and you leave,” he ordered. “Did you take anything?” “No I didn’t, Sergeant,” Dwyer said. Then the sergeant grabbed him and took him to the Major who gave orders next to the generator supplying the searchlights. He recognized Jesse Marcel, an inhabitant of Roswell. “I caught that fireman wandering around the debris, sir,” said the sergeant.

Marcel recognized Dwyer, although they were not friends. He gave him a sharp look and said, “You have to leave here and do not tell anyone where you were neither what you saw.” Dwyer nodded. Marcel turned to the sergeant and said, “Sergeant, drive him to his truck and let him go.”

Dwyer got back into his truck and told the driver to get back to the barracks. “You have the order to leave this place,” said the sergeant, “right now!”

Kevin Randle:

Randle says that with Tony Bragalia they talked with a Roswell Firemen, who shared with them his recollections of what happened in 1947. Randle notes that sketics commented “he’s old (and fairly crotchety)” so that it can be ignored, as his memories are all jumbled together, confused, confabulated, incoherent, and not based in reality.

When Randle spoke the to man, he was reluctant to talk, and if a question was raised from a slightly different angle, he would tell that he had already answered that question. Randles says it told him that he was still sharp at age 90 and that his mind had not faded as some might suggest.

Randle notes that this man had been interviewed by Karl Pflock, and his testimony had been used to discredit Frankie Rowe.

Rande asked the man if he knew Dan Dwyer, Frankie Rowe’s father,and he said that he had, that Dan was a fireman. There was a skeptical claim that it had been proven that Frankie Rowe’s father was not a fireman, and Randle suspects that someone tried to find a fireman with the last name Rowe instead of Dwyer.

The man told Randle, as he had told Bragalia, that the colonel had come into the fire department to order them not to go, but that Frankie’s father, in his personal car, drove to the site. He said that Dan had told him the site was cordoned by armed guards, but that Dwyer had gotten close enough to see the craft. This was corroboration for Frankie Rowe.

Source:

Anthony Braglia:

Friday, March 06, 2009

A firefighter who was with the Roswell Fire Department in 1947 has confirmed that the mysterious crash in the New Mexico desert that Summer was in fact of an unearthly craft!

- Dan Dwyer, another Roswell Fire Department firefighter, did manage to go out to see the crash site, defying the Colonel’s orders. He confirms some of the details that Dan Dwyer’s daughter, Frankie Rowe, has related in numerous interviews over the years. Frankie maintains that her father was able to view the craft and its occupants.

Dan related to him that the area surrounding the crash was secured and cordoned by armed guards. Firemen went out there on their own volition, not as a “department.” The Fireman did not want to talk too much about Dan Dwyer and Frankie Rowe though.

Source:

My comment:

The whole affair with Dan Dwyer is quite complicated, so here is my summary.

Frankie Dwyer Rowe gave a rich testimony, at leat partly supported by her sister, saying she had herself seen Roswell debris. She told Roswell researchers that her father Dan Dwyer, Roswell city fireman, had been on the crash site and saw a crashed spacecraft and bodies of its crew.

This is covered in my Frankie Rowe witness file.

Her father Dan Dwyer had died long before the Roswell incident started to interest researchers; so there is no direct testimony by Dan Dwyer.

Skeptics researchers rejected Frankie Rowe’s story. One reason of the rejection was that they thought there was no fireman named Dan Dwyer among Roswell city firemen.

Kevin Randle notes that the failure to find Dan Dwyer could be the result of a search for “Dan Rowe” instead of Dan Dyer. He says he and Tony Bragalia managed to hear in 2010 an old Roswell city firefighter (named J. C. Smith) who told them he had known Dan Dwyer as a Roswell city firefighter.

The man also said that Dan Dwyer went to the crash site in his own personal car. This was important since one or more interrogated firefighters had told skeptic investigators that there had been no Roswell city firefighter run to the crash site, because the military had told the firefighters not to go there.

Kevin Randle reported this in sources I cite above, and in his book “Alien Mysteries, Conspiracies and Cover-Ups, Visible Ink Press, 2013, on pages 102-103.

So, as of 2017, the status for Dan Dwyer is: he apparently existed, he apparently was a Roswell city firefighter at the time of the Roswell incident, he apparently did go to the craft shite on his own, and what he reported in only known indirectly through statements of his daughter Frankie Dyer Rowe.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 20, 2017First published.

Dan Wilmot

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/danwilmot.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot

(Dan WILMOT, Mr. and Mrs Dan WILMOT, WILMOTS). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to the Roswell Daily Record newspaper for July 8, 1947, Dan Wilmot and his wife were then Roswell residents living on 105 South Pennsylvania Avenue. Mr. Wilmot is said to be “one of the most respected and reliable citizens in town” Mr. Wilmot is said to be a hardware man.

This address is in the town center of the city of Roswell, nearly at the exact center of the city.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by the Wilmots.

In the 1947 Press:

The Roswell Daily Record article for July 8, 1947, included this report:

Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot apparently were the only persons in Roswell who seen what they thought was a flying disk. They were sitting on their porch at 105 South Penn. last Wednesday night at about ten o’clock when a large glowing object zoomed out of the sky from the southeast, going in a northwesterly direction at a high rate of speed. Wilmot called Mrs. Wilmot’s attention to it and both ran down into the yard to watch. It was in sight less then a minute, perhaps 40 or 50 seconds, Wilmot estimated. Wilmot said that it appeared to him to be about 1,500 feet high and going fast. He estimated between 400 and 500 miles per hour. In appearance it looked oval in shape like two inverted saucers, faced mouth to mouth, or like two old type washbowls placed, together in the same fashion. The entire body glowed as though light were showing through from inside, though not like it would inside, though not like it would be if a light were merely underneath. From where he stood Wilmot said that the object looked to be about 5 feet in size, and making allowance for the distance it was from town he figured that it must have been 15 to 20 feet in diameter, though this was just a guess. Wilmot said that he heard no sound but that Mrs. Wilmot said she heard a swishing sound for a very short time. The object came into view from the southeast and disappeared over the treetops in the general vicinity of six mile hill. Wilmot, who is one of the most respected and reliable citizens in town, kept the story to himself hoping that someone else would come out and tell about having seen one, but finally today decided that he would go ahead and tell about it.

The announcement that the RAAF was in possession of one came only a few minutes after he decided to release the details of what he had seen.

See full article and scan here.

Investigators notes and comments:

Note: The Wilmots’ report appears in countless ufology books and websites. I do not reproduce all of them, I do mention the most interesting and include the most “skeptical”. The only “real” source for their report is the newspaper article above.

Karl Pflock:

The author says that July 2, 1947, had been a very hot day in Roswell, and shortly before 10 p.m., Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot were relaxing on the from porch of their home near the center of the city of about 15.000 residents, hoping to get some fresh air. suddenly, a large object “like two inverted saucers faced mouth-to-mouth appeared in the sky, streaking in from the southeast, glowing “as though light were showing through from inside.” The UFO sped rapidly and silently northwest, towards Corona, about 85 miles from there in straight line.

Wilmot, a respected local businessman, reported this to the Roswell Daily Record about a week later, saying the object appeared to be 15 to 20 feet in diameter, flew at high speed “between 400 to 500 miles per hour” and passed over the city at about 1500 feet.

Pflock wonders how the size, speed, height of the UFO were estimated is not recorded, and these must be just guesses. Pflock then writes about the William Woody report, saying it was “about the same time that evening”.

Further on, Pflock notes that the direction of the object as per the Wilmots is the exact opposite to the direction given by William Woody.

Further on, Pflock says that the idea that the Wilmots testimony is of a flying saucer is unsupported, and further on still, he says the Wilmot testimony could well be the same object reported by William Woody, ie a meteor, that the Woody sighting date is uncertain but could be July 2, 1947.

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe ”, book by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus publisher, pp 22-23, 42, 85-86, 2001.

Loren E. Gross:

The Wilmot report.

Without a doubt the best candidate for a “Roswell object” was the July 2nd observation made by Mr. and Mrs. Wilmot. Here is a detailed account as published in the Roswell Daily Record:

“Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot apparently were the only persons in Roswell who have seen what they thought was a flying disk. “They were sitting on their porch at 105 South Penn. Last Wednesday night at about ten minutes before ten o’clock when a large glowing object zoomed out of the sky from the southeast, going in a northwesterly direction at a high rate of speed.

“Wilmot called Mrs. Wilmot’s attention to it and both ran down into the yard to watch. It was in sight less than a minute, perhaps 40 or 50 seconds, Wilmot estimated.

“Wilmot said that it appeared to him to be about 1,500 feet high and going fast. He estimated between 400 and 500 miles per hour.

“In appearance it looked oval in shape like two inverted saucers faced mouth to mouth, or like two old type washbowls placed together in the same fashion. The entire body glowed as though light were showing through from inside, though not like it would be if a light were merely underneath.

“From where he stood Wilmot said that the object looked to be about 5 feet in size, and making allowance for the distance it was from town he figured that it must have been 15 or 20 feet in diameter, though this was just a guess.

“Wilmot said that he heard no sound but that Mrs. Wilmot said she heard a swishing sound for a very short time.

48

“The object came into view from the southeast and disappeared over the treetops in the general vicinity of six-mile hill.

“Wilmot who is one of the most respected and reliable citizens in town, kept the story to himself hoping that someone else would come out and tell about having seen one, but finally today decided that he would go ahead and tell about seeing it. The announcement that the RAAF was in possession of one came only a few minutes after he had decided to release the details of what he had seen.”.. (xx.)

(xx.) Roswell, New Mexico. Roswell Daily Record. 8 July 47. p.1.

Source:

  • “UFOs: A History - 1947 June 24th - July 6th - Supplemental Notes ”, monography by Loren E. Gross, USA, 2000.

Philip J. Corso:

This author gave a quite romanced version of the events:

The radar anomalies continued into the next night as Dan Wilmot, owner of a hardware store in Roswell, set up chairs on his front porch after dinner to watch the streaks of lightning flash across the sky in the distance. Shortly before ten that evening, the lightning grew more intense and the ground shook under the explosions of thunder from a summer storm that pounded the chaparral off in the northwest of the city. Dan and his wife watched the spectacle from beneath the dry safety of their porch roof. It was as if each new bolt of lightning were a spear that bent the heavens themselves.

“Better than any Fourth of July fireworks, ” the Wilmots must have been remarking as they watched in awe as a bright oval object streaked over their house and headed off into the northwest, sinking below a rise just before the horizon where it was engulfed in darkness. The sky again became pitch black. By the time the next bolt of lightning shot off”, the object was gone. A most unusual sight, Dan Wilmot thought, but it was gone from his sight and gone from his thoughts, at least until the end of the week.

Source:

  • “The Day After Roswell ”, book by Col. Philip J. Corso, ret., page 4, 1998.

Jérôme Beau:

Inhabitant of the locality of Roswell.

Wilmot was reported to have witnessed Roswell’s crash, 1947-7-2 at 9:50 pm, when he and his wife saw an oval-shaped craft streaking in the sky heading northwest.

On 7-8, the Roswell Daily Record published the news on the cover, preceded by dozens of newspapers around the world. It can be read, below a beautiful headline on 5 columns, citing the testimony of the Wilmot.

In 1980 Paul Wilmot, son of Dan Wilmot, told Jesse A. Marcel that his parents had actually seen the object explode.

Source:

Chris A. Rutkowski:

The author says that on July 2, 1947, business owner Dan Wilmot and his wife were sitting outside their porch, enjoying the summer evening, when at about 09:50 p.m. they saw a bright, disc-shaped object with glowing lights flying northwest very rapidly. In an interview with the “Roswell daily Record”, he described the object as shaped like “two inverted saucers mouth to mouth”, and an estimated six to eight meters, ie 20 to 25 feet in diameter.

The author says the handful of sightings related to the Roswell incident are hardly remarkable, that they have meteors characteristics, and that even the sighting by Dan Wilmot has some characteristics of a bolide, even with the description of two bowls rim to rim.

Sources:

  • “A World of UFOs ”, book by Chris A. Rutkowski, Dundurn publishers, page 13, 2008.
  • “Alien Abductions and UFO Sightings 5-Book Bundle ”, book by Chris A. Rutkowski, Dundurn publishers, 2016.

Tim Printy:

“UFO Skeptic” Tim Printy days that in the early part of July 1947, Roswell residents reported strange objects moving through the skies at night, and man authors wanted everyone to believe that one or more “discs” were seen traveling near Roswell the night before one supposedly crashed. He says there are several potential witnesses but what they report is not clear and could very easily be explained away as meteors.

He says that in the July 8, 1947, edition of the Roswell Daily Record, there is a reported sighting which occurred on the evening of July 2nd. He gives the part of the newspaper article about it.

He says the estimates provided by the Wilmots were probably not very accurate, and cites one of the first astronomers to investigate UFOs, Dr. J. Allyn Hynek, who stated in his initial report to Project Grudge: “…it is obvious that it would usually be impossible for observers to make reliable estimates of the speed, distance, or size of such stimulus objects. It is not possible to estimate accurately the distance of small bright objects viewed against a clear sky, unless the object is identified first…It must be concluded, therefore, that most of the statements of speed, distance, altitude, and size are entirely unreliable and should be disregarded. This is doubly true of observations made at night. (Steiger 228)“.

He then cites astronomer Francis Drake about the time lapse between the event and the reporting. Drake performed studies of how individuals reported meteor events and stated “The first fact we learned was that witnesses memory of such exotic events fades very quickly… after 5 days people report more imagination than truth” (Sagan and Page 248).

He says the observations made by astronomer Dr. William K. Hartmann during the Condon Study on UFO were even more revealing. Dr. Hartmann described how witnesses made numerous misperceptions while observing the reentry of the Zond IV satellite/booster rocket in March of 1968. A significant fraction of the reports submitted were extremely inaccurate and made serious misjudgments in speed, distance, and size of the objects. Many of these reports provided additional details that were highly erroneous, which included hearing sounds, seeing shapes behind the illuminated fragments and referring to these fragments as “windows” on the craft. Hartmann said it was an “Excitedness Effect”: “…the excited observers who thought they had witnessed a very strange phenomenon produced the most detailed, longest, and most misconceived reports…” (Condon et al. 574).

He says a wealth of information is available to indicate reports such as the Wilmots are not very accurate at all. World War II intelligence expert R.V. Jones said “…witnesses were usually right when they said that something had happened at a particular place, although they could be wildly wrong about what had happened.” (Condon et al. 925).

He says the Wilmots very probably saw was a meteor, as much of the description is very similar to the manner in which inexperienced observers describe a brilliant meteor.

He says “the only possible reason to believe that the object was not a meteor is the duration of the event”, saying that some bright fireballs have been recorded to last over a minute, but the normal duration is no more than 15 seconds. But as the Wilmots reported 5 days later, and did not accurately record the time duration during the event, the 40-50 seconds could easily have been 10-20 seconds of actual time, and Dan Wilmot stated the time duration was only an “estimate.”

He says there is evidence to suggest that the meteor could have come from several meteor radiants active at the time of the sighting although the data is not very conclusive:

The Sagittarid/Alpha Scorpid streams (which has numerous sub-radiants/associated minor showers) often produce bright meteors that travel from out of just as the Wilmots describe. The International Meteor Observers Handbook provides the following description: “The activity period ends in early July with a very diffuse and complex radiant located near the ecliptic in Sagittarius. Despite the very low rates, brighter members of these streams may sometimes prove quite spectacular” (Roggemans 119). The culprit could also have been the Ophiuchids, located in the same region of the sky, which “…seems to produce a large number of bright meteors and fireballs” (Kronk 103). While neither of these meteor showers reaches maximum on July 2, they are diffuse streams, which last over a period of several weeks, which includes July 2. Even if it were not one of these shower members, there are also the occasional random meteor that enters the earth’s atmosphere. Many brilliant meteors are not even associated with meteor showers and can produce a spectacular display.

Source:

The NICAP Website:

Wednesday. July 2, 1947

At 9:50 p.m. Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot see an oval object, “like two inverted saucers faced mouth to mouth,” passing over their house in Roswell, New Mexico. The object, moving at a high rate of speed, is heading northwest. (Ref. 1)

Ref. 1 - The Truth About Roswell - Randle, Schmitt

Source:

”Entre deux Mondes” website:

On July 2, 1947, a hot and heavy night dawned on New Mexico. As they took the air on the steps of their house in the little town of roswell, the wilmot hardware store man and his wife suddenly saw a large luminous object that grew in going at a high-speed in a northwesterly direction before disappearing behind an oval-shaped hill. It looks like two saucers reversed one over the other. The whole object shone as a light illuminated it from within. Shortly afterwards, the storm burst, witnesses saw a disk crossing the sky and exploding partly over a ranch near Roswell, New Mexico.

Source:

My comments:

The reasoning by Pflock seems a bit odd to me: on the one hand, he said the Wilmots testimony is at odds with the Woody testimony as the directions are opposite, on the other hand he said it must be the same, a meteor, since the Woody testimony strongly suggested it was a meteor.

I do think a meteor cannot be discarded; however, the Wilmots sighting lacks one feature which is almost always associated with meteors sightings mistaken as “flying saucers” or UFOs: no trail is mentioned. This is certainly not sufficient to claim it was thus not a meteor, but it is something of importance in the report; which “skeptic” Tim Printy for example did not care to note.

While all the remarks by Tim Printy about the estimates of size, distance, height, by Dan Wilmot, are very true and should be known by any ufologists, his comment on the duration is less wise: large meteors have been observed for one minute or even 1 minute 30. There is thus no need to think that Dan Wilmot must have seen it only 15 seconds.

Of couse there is no “scientific measurement” of the duration, and Dan Wilmot was conscious that his figures were only estimates; however it is said in the newspaper article tha “Wilmot called Mrs. Wilmot’s attention to it and both ran down into the yard to watch”. This may have needed more than 10-20 seconds; at least, it means the sighting very likely have lasted more than 1-5 seconds.

The remarks cited by Printy about people adding “details” to meteors sightings are misleading. For example, saying that referring to fragments of a re-entry as “windows” does not mean the observation is not well reported, it only means that the interpretation is erroneous. Any ufologist should know the difference between erroneous description and erroneous interpretation. “Skeptics” usually blur this, in order to convince the reader that the reports are unreliable, when such examples only indicate that the interpretations are unreliable.

The sound mentioned by Mrs Wilmot only is, to the “skeptic”, evidence that witnesses add imagined details, and “skeptics” generally says it is caused by memory faults or the will to believe in flying saucers. It is not necessarily true. In instances of big meteors, a noise is sometimes reported, and sometimes, it is reported by some witnesses but not all. This was the subjects of debates. Many people consider that meteors are necessarily silent (unless they explode) and that hearing a noise is then either due to imagination or to a real noise unrelated to the meteor. But others noticed that the important electromagnetic effect of a meteor hitting the atmosphere molecules at supersonic speed can cause metallic objects, for example, near a witness to produce some faint sound.

I must insist that meteors sounds are not caused by acoustic propagation in the air: the distance between the source and the listener, the short duration of the meteor streak relative to this distance, would result in acoustic propagation to have the listener “get” the sound well after the meteor is no longer visible.

In 1719, astronomer Edmund Halley noted that observers up to 300km away from a huge meteor reported hearing hissing noises; but since sound takes about five seconds to cover a mile, Halley thought it was impossible for the witnesses to have heard sounds from the fireball in the time it passed, so he dismissed the hearings as “the effect of pure fantasy”. But he was wrong.

There are numerous studies in the scientific literature about meteor sounds; let me quote the abstract of one of the most recent:

Concurrent sound associated with very bright meteors manifests as popping, hissing, and faint rustling sounds occurring simultaneously with the arrival of light from meteors. Numerous instances have been documented with -11 to -13 brightness. These sounds cannot be attributed to direct acoustic propagation from the upper atmosphere for which travel time would be several minutes. Concurrent sounds must be associated with some form of electromagnetic energy generated by the meteor, propagated to the vicinity of the observer, and transduced into acoustic waves. Previously, energy propagated from meteors was assumed to be RF emissions. This has not been well validated experimentally. Herein we describe experimental results and numerical models in support of photoacoustic coupling as the mechanism. Recent photometric measurements of fireballs reveal strong millisecond flares and significant brightness oscillations at frequencies =40?Hz. Strongly modulated light at these frequencies with sufficient intensity can create concurrent sounds through radiative heating of common dielectric materials like hair, clothing, and leaves. This heating produces small pressure oscillations in the air contacting the absorbers. Calculations show that -12 brightness meteors can generate audible sound at ~25?dB SPL. The photoacoustic hypothesis provides an alternative explanation for this longstanding mystery about generation of concurrent sounds by fireballs.

Source: “Photoacoustic Sounds from Meteors ”, Richard Spalding, John Tencer, William Sweatt, Benjamin Conley, Roy Hogan, Mark Boslough, GiGi Gonzales & Pavel Spurny, in Scientific Reports 7, Article number: 41251, 2017.

What this paper says was known earlier already, for example, in 1992, in “Electrophonic sounds from large meteor fireballs ”, by Keay, C. S. L., in Meteoritics (ISSN 0026-1114), vol. 27, no. 2, June 1992, p. 144-148 (available at http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1992Metic..27..144K).

It was talked about in 1966 in the paper Acoustic Effects of Meteors , by Hindley, K. B., in The Astronomer , vol. 3, pp F12-F13:

ACOUSTIC EFFECTS OF METEORS

K B Hindley

I found P B York’s comments in CA 25 on the anomalous sounds accompanying bright meteor phenomena interesting. The phenomenon has held many people’s attention (including my own) for some time. A bright meteor penetrating below 50 kilometres in the atmosphere produces a shock wave (being supersonic), and this may, on favourable occasions, be heard as a crack followed by a rumble, at least five minutes after the fireball appeared. It takes the shock wave at least that period of time to travel down from 50 km to ground level and the observer’s ear.

However, there are many well-authenticated cases of the appearance of a bright meteor or fireball being accompanied by anomalous sounds. These have been variously described as swishing, rustling, sizzling, whistling, or cracking noises. Many observers have compared these sounds with that made by burning grass or gorse. The explain these sounds, we have an interesting problem in physics. The distance separating the observer and the meteor is at least 50 km, and usually more like 100, and the only phenomenon which can cover such distances virtually instantaneously is electromagnetic radiation, from X-rays, through light, to radio waves. This fact has led to schools of thought in attempting to explain this phenomenon: (a) subjective effects, or (b) radio waves.

I see as a fact that in 2017 still, there are ufologists who know about meteors sounds, and others who still believe meteors must be silent while they are seen and noise must therefore be caused by imagination or flawed memory.

Of course, there is no “scientific” proof Mrs Wilmot did hear a real sound; however, I feel there is no proof of the contrary either. To me, I see the possibility that the hearing of the sound indicates that what the Wilmot saw was a large, rather then a small, meteor, it is was a meteor.

About the date and time: the initial report in the newspaper clearly states it was on Wednesday according to Dan Wilmot, this is July 2, 1947. William Woody does not give this date for his sighting, he wrote in his affidavit that his sighting was “One hot night during the summer of 1947, probably in early July”. I found almost all sources discussing the Wilmot sighting give the correct said date of July 2, 1947, though some web pages claim the date was July 6, or 7, 1947 - which is simply and totally unsupported. But he hour is not always correctly given. Wilmot said: “at about ten o’clock”. In Pflock’s book, this changes to “shortly before 10 p.m.” Why? Then, probably inspired by Pflock, we get “09:50 p.m.”

About the direction: the original source says the “object zoomed out of the sky from the southeast, going in a northwesterly direction” and “object came into view from the southeast and disappeared over the treetops in the general vicinity of six mile hill”. Corona is exactly 137 miles from the Wilmots’, in the Northwest at 314°. This is the direction to the Foster Ranch

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 24, 2017First published.

Darwin Rasmussen

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/darwinrasmussen.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Darwin Rasmussen

(Darwin RASMUSSEN, Darwin E. RASMUSSEN).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Darwin Darwin E. Rasmussen testified of nothing in person. It was his cousin Elaine Vegh who reported things he allegedly said, so please refer to the Elain Vegh file.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 19, 2017First published.

David Wagnon

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/davidwagnon.htm

Under construction.

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is David N. Wagnon.

(2) My address is: [Confidential]

(3) I am employed as: Toxicologist (x) I am semiretired.

(4) I arrived in Roswell, New Mexico, in April 1946 as an enlisted member of the U.S. Army Air Force. I served at Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) for two years, assigned to Squadron “M,” the medical unit, as a technician in the base hospital laboratory. After leaving the service, I earned an undergraduate and graduate degrees in science, taught high school, and was a school principal and drug education consultant. In July 1947, I was 19 and a private first class.

(5) I do not recall anything about a crashed flying saucer incident during the time I was stationed at RAAF, but I do remember an Army nurse named Naomi Self, who was assigned to the base hospital. She was small, attractive, in her twenties, and, I believe, a brunette. I seem to recall Miss Self was transferred from RAAF while I was still stationed there, but I am not at all certain about this.

(6) Miss Self’s name really stuck with me because it is somewhat unusual and she was dating the local Red Cross representative, who was quite a bit older, probably in his late forties. I do not remember the man’s name, but do recall he had an office in town and was always hanging around Squadron “M” and the emergency room.

(7) There were rumors about Miss Self have a D&C (dilatation and curettage) in the base hospital, the tissue being sent off (probably to Brook Medical Center in San Antonio, Texas), and the biopsy report coming back with some indication of fetal tissue. There was a lot of speculation about this in the squadron.

(8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: David N. Wagnon
[Signature]
Date: November 15, 1993

Subscribed and sworn to before me
This 15 day of Nov 1993
Lisa C. Watson, NOTARY PUBLIC
[Signature]

Under construction.

Under construction.

Earl Zimmermann

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/earlzimmerman.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Earl Zimmerman

(Earl ZIMMERMAN, Earl L. ZIMMERMAN).(No photograph.)

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

(Under construction)

M/Sgt Earl L Zimmerman, USAF Ret.

In June of 43 was in Hethel in North Africa as radio operator in the B-24 “Liberators” bombers of the 389th Bomber Group (the “Sky Scorpions”), then left North Africa to fly on the Ploesti, Romania, mission of August 1, 1943, went down in Turkey and was interned for about six months. “Escaped” in early 1944, back to Hethel for a few more combat missions then to Leuchars for the “Ball” Project (dropping agents in enemy territory). He flew a few missions as a crew, later returned to Hethel to finish the war and returned to ZI in June of 45.

Earl L. Zimmerman has won the Distinguished Flying Cross.

The Distinguished Flying Cross is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity with the Armed Forces of the United States, distinguishes himself by heroism or extraordinary achievement while participating in aerial flight. The performance of the act of heroism must be evidenced by voluntary action above and beyond the call of duty. The extraordinary achievement must have resulted in an accomplishment so exceptional and outstanding as to clearly set the individual apart from his comrades or from other persons in similar circumstances. Awards will be made only to recognize single acts of heroism or extraordinary achievement and will not be made in recognition of sustained operational activities against an armed enemy.

As historian of the 389th, Earl L. Zimmerman is author of:

  • “Ploesti Aftermath ” by Earl L. Zimmerman (the 389th BG radioman describes internment in Turkey & his escape), in The Second Air Division Association Newsletter, June 1973.

Affidavits:

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is Earl L. Zimmerman.

(2) My address is: [Confidential]

(3) I am employed as: I am retired.

(4) During World War II, I served in the Army Air Force as an aircraft radio operator. After the war ended, I left the service, but reenlisted a short time later, reporting to Roswell Army Air field (RAAF), New Mexico, in or about March 1947. There I served in the base radio shack as a high-speed code transmission radio operator. In early 1949, I was transferred to the Office of Special Investigations and assigned to District 17 headquarters at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque.

(5) While stationed at RAAF, I moonlighted as a bartender in the base officer’s club. During the summer of 1947, I heard many rumors about flying saucers in the club and around the base, including something about investigating the discovery of one under the guise of a plane crash investigation. At about this time, I saw Eighth Air Force commander General Roger Ramey in the O club more than once. On a couple of these occasions, he had Charles Lindbergh with him and I heard they were on the base because of the flying saucer business. There was no publicity about Lindbergh’s visits, and I was very surprised to see him in the club. I think he came to Roswell with Ramey, and I seem to recall that on one of these occasions Ramey had flown in from Puerto Rico.

(6) At about the same time, I learned that an officer not stationed at the base, a big man whom I saw in the club a number of times, was a Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) agent. I do not recall how I learned the man was with CIC, but on one occasion when this officer was in the club, I called him to the attention of Colonel William H. Blanchard, the base commander. Blanchard was unaware that this CIC agent was on his base, so he went over and introduced himself. Later, Blanchard told me there was no problem.

(7) In early 1949, after being transferred to OSI in Albuquerque, I worked with Dr. Lincoln LaPaz of the University of New Mexico on an extended project at the university’s research station on top of Sandia Peak. We were told the Air Force was concerned about “something” being in the night sky over Los Alamos, and we took 15-minute exposures of the sky with a four by five Speed Graphic camera. We worked in three-man, one-week shifts, and Dr. LaPaz was in charge.

(8) During this project, which lasted for several months, I got to know Dr. LaPaz very well. When I mentioned to him I had been stationed in Roswell during 1947, he told me he had been involved in the investigation of the thing found in the Roswell area that summer. He did not discuss the case in any detail, but he did say he went out with two agents and interviewed sheepherders, ranchers, and others. They told these witnesses they were investigating an aircraft accident. I seem to recall LaPaz also saying they found an area where the surface earth had been turned a light blue and wondering if lightning could cause such an effect.

(10) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: Earl L. Zimmerman
Nov. 2, 1993

Signature witnessed by:
Beverly J. Maggard, 11-2-93

Interviews and public statements:

Under construction.

Investigators notes and comments:

Under construction.

Edgar Izard

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/edgarizard.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Edgar Izard

(Edgar IZARD, Lt. Edgar IZARD).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

I personally did not find any biographical information about a Lieutenant Edgard Izard who allegedly was in the US Air Force in 1947; which does not necessarily mean that he did not exist, only that I did not find any trace of him outside the literature on the Roswell incident.

I can just assure that the B-29 “Straight Flush” said to have been the plane on which he had been a co-pilot did exist:

“Straight Flush” (B-29-36-MO 44-27301, Victor 85, 393d Bomb Squadron, 509th Composite Group) participated in the Hiroshima attack on August 6, 1945, by conducting a weather reconnaissance flight over this city before the bombing.

In November 1945, Straight Flush returned with the 509th to Roswell Army Air Field, New Mexico. From March to August 1946 it was assigned to the Operation Crossroads task force, then rejoined the 509th BG at Roswell.

(See for example Wikipedia, and page 44 in “The B-29 Superfortress: A Comprehensive Registry of the Planes and Their Missions” by Robert A. Mann, 2004.)

Interviews and public statement:

See below: Edgard Izard probably testified of nothing, being just cited as a crew member of a flight allegedly carrying saucer debris from the Roswell base to Fort Worth on July 9, 1947, according to another witness.

Investigators comments and notes:

Thomas Carey and Don Schmitt:

The authors discuss of the “Straight Flush” B-29 unscheduled secret flight from Roswell to Fort Worth of an an unmarked wooden crate.

They say the flight crew that day from the 393rd Bomb Squadron at the RAAF, had on board among the crew Lt. Edgar Izard, retired from the Air Force and last seen selling insurance in Roswell in the 1950s. They say that to their knowledge, he was never interviewed and is now presumed dead.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt New Plague books, page 161, 2007.

My comment:

Robert Slusher, sergeant in 1947, had, by affidavit, reported that he had been a member of the B-29 crew that had escorted Roswell’s crates of debris to Fort Worth. He stated that the crew had loaded crates in the bomb bay guarded by MPs for the Fort Worth destination on July 9, 1947. He had indicated that the crew consisted of Captain Frederick Ewing, co-pilot Edgar Izard, Lieutenant Felix Martucci, Sergeant David Tyner, Navigator James Eubanks, Sergeant Arthur Osepchook, and Corporal Thadeus Love.

This is also cited in “Crash at Corona: The US Military Retrieval and Cover-Up of a UFO - the Definitive Study of the Roswell Incident” by Don Berliner and Stanton T. Friedman, Cosimo, Inc., 1992.

Edgar Mitchell

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/edgarmitchell.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Edgar Mitchell

(Edgar MITCHELL). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Edgar Mitchell was born on September 17, 1930, in Hereford, Texas, but spends his childhood and makes his first studies in Roswell and Artesia, New Mexico.

On January 31, 1971, US Navy Captain Dr. Edgar Mitchell embarked on a journey into outer space that resulted in becoming the sixth man to walk on the moon. The Apollo 14 mission was NASA’s third manned lunar landing.

Dr. Mitchell’s academic background includes a Bachelor of Science in Industrial Management from Carnegie Mellon University, a Bachelor of Science from the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School and a Doctor of Science in Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT. In addition he has received honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University.

Dr. Mitchell has received many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. He was inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998.

After retiring from the Navy in 1972, Dr. Mitchell founded the Institute of Noetic Sciences to sponsor research into the nature of consciousness as it relates to cosmology and causality. In 1984, he was a co-founder of the Association of Space Explorers, an international organization of those who have experienced space travel.

Interviews and public statements:

Edgar Mitchell has clearly said on numerous occasions that he has no direct involvment in the Rosell incident, but that he was briefed on the reality of the incident as a crash on an extraterrestrial craft by insiders who are not authorized to confirm this publicly.

Underneath are some example of interviews and public statments by Edgar Mitchell on the Roswell incident’s reality.

Excerpts from a speech by Astronaut Edgar Mitchell, at a Stephen Greer conference in 1987:

In our briefing of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Intelligence Group, it became very clear to us that they were naive. They did not really know any more about this effort than we do, if as much. That is because, as Bob Dean pointed out earlier, most of the people in government were not in government when I retired twenty five years ago, they are younger people. The files going back fifty years just no longer exist. They’ve either been purged, compromised or whatever. They don’t exist.

So when we blame government for not being forthright, they really don’t have anything to be forthright about, at least at that level. Now, somewhere there’s knowledgeable people, …the question often comes up as to how they could have kept this a secret for so long. And friends they haven’t. It’s been around us all the time, but it has been denied, and obscured. … the prevalence in the modern era of so many events - the sightings, the continual mutilation events, the so-called abduction events … I find that quite alarming. … With regard to the technology itself, I work with folks who do know what is in our technological data base and what is available to modern armies. The so-called ET technology, the ability to have silent engines and flying machines that make no sound, flying machines that have the characteristics that are consistent with reproduction of UFO sightings, are not in any nations arsenal, but they do exist.

So if there are back engineered technologies existing, they are probably in the hands of this group of individuals, formerly government, formerly perhaps intelligence, formerly, under private sector control with some sort of oversight by military or by government. But this (oversight) is likely no longer the case as a result of this access denied category that is now operating. I call it a clandestine group. The technology is not in our military arsenals anywhere in the world, but it does exist, and to me that’s quite disconcerting.

The following article was published by the newspaper the Ottawa Citizen, on October 11, 1998:

UFOs: It’S A Coverup

Astronaut Asks Washington To Tell Truth About Aliens

Tom Rhodes, Times of London

The U.S. Congress should grant immunity to high-level officials so they can tell the real story about alien visits to Earth, says a former astronaut.

Edgar Mitchell, who holds a doctorate from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and was the sixth man to walk on the moon, wants Washington to acknowledge what he believes is long-standing knowledge of extra-terrestrial life.

Mr. Mitchell says he is 90 per cent sure that many of the thousands of unidentified flying objects, or UFOs, recorded since the 1940s, belong to visitors from other planets. Although some have been delusions and others natural phenomena, too many remain unexplained, he said at a conference in Connecticut yesterday.

“This suggests there are humanoids manning craft which have characteristics not in the arsenal of any nation on Earth. That is very alarming.”

And Mr. Mitchell says he has witnesses — many of them from intelligence agencies and the military — who convinced him that the American government has covered up the truth about UFOs for 50 years.

“Many of these folks are under high-security clearances, they took oaths and they feel they cannot talk without some form of immunity,” Mr. Mitchell said. “It takes a brave person to come out on something like this.”

One person who has come out is Graham Hancock, a former East Africa correspondent for The Economist. He believes that NASA refuses to acknowledge aliens because of “a lingering Cold War mentality and a fear that evidence of alien life will have destabilizing political, economic and social consequences.”

His new book, The Mars Mystery, postulates that life once existed on Mars but was wiped out by meteor impacts, much as the dinosaurs are thought to have been made extinct on Earth 65 million years ago.

He adds that NASA has done “laughably little” to investigate extra-terrestrial evidence, and in fact it has an official “duty to withhold … information classified to protect the national security.”

“What we see here is a mindset, not a conspiracy,” writes Mr. Hancock.

“And yet to be perfectly honest, we will always have a lingering suspicion that there could be something … going on behind the scenes, something much bigger.”

Mr. Hancock and Mr. Mitchell disagree on some aspects of the theory that life existed on Mars, but both point to the holy grail of conspiracy theories, the Roswell incident — the alleged crash of a flying saucer in New Mexico in 1947 — as one piece of a government coverup.

Some claim the object that crashed into a farmer’s field in June of that year contained the body of alien astronauts, but the U.S. military has offered several alternative accounts.

In Report: Case Closed released last year on the 50th anniversary of the Roswell crash, the U.S. air force explained that the ‘extra-terrestrials’ were actually crash-test dummies used in high-altitude parachute trials.

In a previous attempt to explain the incident, the air force reported that the “spaceship” wreckage found by a farmer in a field was the remains of a balloon used to monitor atmospheric evidence of Soviet nuclear tests.

“The claim that the bodies were just life-size dummies from parachute drops is an admission that there was at least something at Roswell that could be mistaken for alien bodies,” writes Mr. Hancock.

“What is to be made of statements from several of the witnesses that one of the ‘aliens’ survived the crash and was seen moving?”

Mr. Mitchell says his witnesses can provide the truth about events such as Roswell and his campaign is bolstering other “believers.”

“There’s no doubt in my mind that Ed Mitchell gives us all credibility,” said Walter Andrus, international director of the Mutual UFO Network, the largest organization of its kind in America.

But Mr. Mitchell said that until recently he has been leery of appearing with ufologists, widely regarded as cranks.

“I was very cautious,” he said.

Although he acts as a consultant on the X-Files, the cult television series, he is scornful of “disinformation” about aliens and flying saucers that emanates from the Internet and marginal UFO organizations in America.

“The notion that there are structures on Mars or the moon is bonkers,” said Mitchell. “I can attest to the latter — I’ve been there. We saw no structures at the landing site and none was reflected in my helmet, as has been alleged.

But while gazing at the earth from the command module of Apollo 14, Mr. Mitchell said he did feel ” an overwhelming sense of universal connectedness.”

Since leaving NASA he has studied psychic and spiritual phenomena and submitted luminaries such as Uri Geller, the Israeli spoon bender, to scientific scrutiny. In his research he has come to believe in life beyond our skies.

Now, he says, “there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to warrant a scientific understanding of this area.”

On October 10, 1998, Edgar Mitchell stated to The People, London:

“Make no mistake, Roswell happened. I’ve seen secret files which show the government knew about it, but decided not to tell the public. There were very good security reasons for not informing the public about Roswell. Quite simply, we wouldn’t have known how to deal with the technology of intelligent beings advanced enough to send a craft to Earth. The world would have panicked if we’d known aliens were visiting us.”

“I wasn’t convinced about the existence of aliens until I started talking to the military old-timers who were there at the time of Roswell. The more government documentation on aliens I was told about, the more convinced I became.”

“It helps too that those in possession of documentation of alien visits to Earth are starting to come forward. The military people I spoke to are tired of the secrecy surrounding Roswell and similar cases, particularly as the information is being leaked.”

“I firmly believe that this documentation will have to be made public within the next three or four years. And if proof of ETs is finally made public, nobody will be happier than me.”

Edgar Mitchell gave the folloging answers to questions by Torbjorn Sassersson in an interview for South Travel Magazine, on December 14, 2004:

Q: You have repeatedly over the years claimed that you have seen proof of Extraterrestrial highly intelligent life forms. Can you please tell us some more about that?

Edgar Mitchell: “Not so. I have never had first hand experiences of ETs or UFO phenomena. Rather, I rely upon the testimony of trusted “old timers” and more modern government and military personnel whose official duties and need to know, placed them in position to have such experiences. I have been briefed by such individuals.”

Q: Are you sure these life forms are extraterrestrial? Could it be that they are extra dimensional?

Edgar Mitchell: “No valid case has yet been demonstrated in physics for the existence of extra spatial dimensions. If ET visitation is real, it is not likely extra-dimensional.”

Saint-Petersburg Times, USA, on February 18, 2004:

The sixth man to walk on the moon shares his unconventional views.

By WAVENEY ANN MOORE, Times Staff Writer

ST. PETERSBURG - The aliens have landed.

Thus declared Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell on Saturday to more than 200 admirers.

“A few insiders know the truth … and are studying the bodies that have been discovered,” said Mitchell, who was the sixth man to walk on the moon.

Mitchell, who landed on the moon with Alan B. Shepard, said a “cabal” of insiders stopped briefing presidents about extraterrestrials after President Kennedy.

For those who might consider his statements farfetched, Mitchell, who has a doctorate in science from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, noted that 30 years ago it was accepted that man was alone in the universe. Few people believe that now, he said.

Besides aliens, Mitchell talked about being freed of prostate cancer during a healing ceremony and his epiphany while returning from the moon.

“I had an opportunity to be a tourist,” he said, going on to speak about the sensation he felt as he watched the Earth, moon and sun.

Raised as a Southern Baptist, Mitchell said his feeling of interconnectedness could not be explained by traditional religion alone. He later founded the Institute of Noetic Sciences.

On its Web site, the California organization says it conducts and sponsors “leading-edge research into the potentials and powers of consciousness” and that it explores “phenomena that do not necessarily fit conventional scientific models, while maintaining a commitment to scientific rigor.”

The site also states that IONS, as it is known by members, is not a spiritual sect, political action group or single-cause institute.

Saturday afternoon, dozens of people made their way through rain to hear Mitchell and IONS president James O’Dea speak at the Heritage Holiday Inn in downtown St. Petersburg.

Lisa Raphael, a member of IONS who describes herself as a transformational holistic healer, said she was pleased to hear Mitchell’s comments.

“Personally, what was most delightful to me was that he was more open than he has ever been, very direct about knowing that there are other forms of intelligent life in the universe and most probably that they have been here,” said Ms. Raphael.

On November 5, 2005, invited in Interlaken in Switzerland, at the second World Mystery Forums (WMF) at the Mystery Park, Edgar Mitchell told of the Apollo 14 Mission. He was asked about the Roswell incident and stated:

“My friends, who saw the events at that time with their own eyes and today long are dead, told me the truth. A national secret organization for the secrecy of these incidents also today still successfully works on masking this event in the history of mankind.”

Elaine Vegh

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/elainevegh.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Elaine Vegh

(Elaine VEGH).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Elaine Vegh was reportedly the first cousin of Captain Darwin E. Rasmussen, of the 718th Bomb Group, based in Roswell at the time of the incident.

I found at http://www.americanairmuseum.com/person/38858 that Darwin E. Rasmussen was an American, born in Muskegon, Michigan, who achieved the highest rank of Captain and flew as a Navigator.

He was shot down on December 30, 1943 in a B-24 “Liberator” #427766, over Belgium, and evaded that same day.

He served with the 389th Bomb Group known in more familiar terms as “the Sky Scorpions”, who flew strategic bombing missions in B-24s from Hethel, England. They also sent detachments to join bases in North Africa at Benghazi No. 10, Libya, between 3 July 1943.

He was also a member of the 566th Bomb Squadron.

I found on the France-Crashes website - listing information about allied air forces personal who crashed in or near France during WW2 - that Darwin E. Rasmussen was a US Army Air Force who crashed as he was the navigator of B-24 Liberator 42-7766 “Heavy Date” of the 389th Bomb Group of the 8th Army on December 30, 1945, in the Ardennes. He successfully escaped through the Pyrénées, Spain, Gibraltar route.

See: https://nara-media-001.s3.amazonaws.com/arcmedia/nw/305270/EE-669.pdf

The source http://www.atomicvetkin.com/hotplanes.html indicated by Kevin Randle lists Operation Crossroads crew member names of 509th Composite Group’s “Hot” planes, i.e. a 1946 United Press dispatch telling of two “hot” sampler planes which passed through the mushroom clouds while taking air samples to measure radioactivity levels. Rasmussen is listed there as “Radar Officer: Captain Darwin E. Rasmussen, Muskegon, Michigan”.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Elaine Vegh.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no public statement by Elaine Vegh.

Investigators notes and comments:

Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt:

These authors said that Captain Darwin E. Rasmussen, the 718th Bomb Group operations officer, a part of the 509th, told family members just before dying that the Roswell incident was true, and that four bodies had been recovered.

Elaine Vegh, cousin of Rasmussen, told them that she had personally heard Rasmussen tell her father that he had no doubt that flying saucers were real because he had helped to retrieve the bodies from the one that crashed at Roswell.

They indicate that this is from an interview of March 1, 1990.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, New Page Books publishers, page 200, 2007.

Kevin Randle:

Kevin Randle wrote that Captain David E. Rasmussen, later Colonel, was at a family barbecue when he said that he had no doubt that flying saucers were real because he had helped recover the bodies from a crash. There were four bodies and they were loaded into a truck and immediately driven to Roswell. He also said that within hours they were told that they had not seen anything and suggested not to talk about it.

Source:

  • “Roswell in the 21st Century ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Speaking Volumes publishers, 2016.

Kevin Randle indicates that Stanton Friedman and him had interviewed Darwin Rasmussen’s cousin, Elaine Vegh.

Back in 1990, he learned of Elaine Vegh, and her claim was that her first cousin, Darwin Rasmussen, had been a career Air Force officer stationed in Roswell in 1947.

Elaine Vegh told that she had been standing near her father about 15 years ago, when Rasmussen reportedly said “…never doubt that there is a cover up here. We did pick up bodies and the Air Force does have them.”

She said that “He had seen what was picked up. He had seen the craft.”

Kevin Randle says this is all she told, as best she could remember, that she did not see anything herself and her memory of this is somewhat clouded, so that it is not a very convincing testimony. He adds that Rasmussen died in 1975, Vegh’s father died in 1983, and no one else heard the conversation and there was no detail. Veigh was 62 when interviewed, and she was 10 or 12 when she overheard the conversation.

Kevin Randle says that Rasmussen’s picture is not in the Roswell Army Air Base Yearbook for 1947, but his name does appear in the Roswell base telephone directory published in August 1947. He also found his name associated with a 509th flight crew.

He notes that he used this information in his book “UFO Crash in Roswell”, and Carey and Schmitt used it in their “Witness to Roswell” correctly indicated it came from an interview of March 1, 1990, but that they did not specify the interview was by Kevin Randle, who gave Don Schmitt a copy.

Randle says that since then he located some records showing Rasmussen was assigned to an aircrew as a radar officer for Operation Crossroads in a document not related to Roswell, at http://www.atomicvetkin.com/hotplanes.html

Randle also explains that she did not correctly remember her age at the time she overheard the conversation, and that she had seen the “Unsolved Mysteries” TV show about the Roswell incident.

Kevin Randle notes that claims are circulated about Jesse Marcel saying that the alien bodies were retrieved under the command of Captain Darwin E. Rasmussen. Randle notes that this is likely a total invention.

Source:

My notes:

As indicated by Kevin Randle, there are websites making claims such as “The corpses, according to Marcel, were retrieved under the command of Captain Darwin E. Rasmussen.” Jesse Marcel actually never mentioned any “corpses” and never cited the name of Capt. Rasmussen.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 19, 2017First published.

E. L. Pyles

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/elpylesf.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents concernant les témoins

E. L. Pyles

(E. L. PYLES).Pas de photo

S’il vous plait , avant de poser des questions ou d’envoyer critiques ou commentaires, veuillez lire ceci.

Biographie:

Je n’ai pas trouvé d’informations vérifiées sur E.L. Pyles en dehors de la littérature ufologie: il y a simplement beaucoup trop de “E. L. Pyles” qui pourrait être le bon.

Cependant, puisque le chercheur “sceptique” Karl Pflock l’a interviewé, il ne fait que peu de que le E. L. Pyles interviewé par Don Schmitt existe effectivement et était vraiment un caporal dans le 101e Escadron du Airways and Air Communications Service.

Affidavits:

Il n’y a pas d’affidavit par E. L. Pyles.

Commentaires et notes d’enquêteurs:

Hal K. Korff:

L’auteur dit que Randle et Schmitt ont déclaré dans “The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell” que le caporal. E. L. Pyles était un autre des témoins qui ont observé le vaisseau spatial qui a survolé la ville de Roswell avant qu’il ne s’écrase.

Korff dit que le problème est que Randle et Schmitt font des “spéculations folles”, puisque lorsque Pyles a raconté son histoire, il ignorait à la fois la date et l’heure de son observation de “l’objet semblable à une étoile.”

Korff dit que le témoignage ayant 40 ans de retard, il était tellement vague que Pyles n’était même pas certain du lieu où il se trouvait au moment de l’observation, de sorte que le lien entre cet incident et Roswell est une “pure spéculation au mieux”. L’observation est si vague et avec si peu de détails qu’il est impossible de déterminer ce qu’il a observé, s’il a observé quelque chose.

Source:

  • “The Roswell Crash - What they Don’t Want You to Know ”, livre par Kal K. Korff, Prometheus Books éditeur, page 103, 1997.

Karl Pflock:

L’auteur donne d’abord la version “pro-Roswell”: le caporal E. L. Pyles des forces aériennes de l’armée était affecté à une installation de radio à quelques miles au sud-ouest de la base de Roswell AAF en 1947. Selon Randle et Schmitt, une nuit “au début de juillet 1947 ”, Pyles était à l’installation de radio quand il a vu “un objet filer dans le ciel nocturne vers son nord, descendant vers le sol”. Randle et Schmitt disent encore que Pyles a cru que cela s’était produit un week-end car “il était réveillé après que les lumières principales avaient été éteintes à onze heures”, et que c’était “avant minuit, parce qu’il se couchait normalement à minuit”.

Pflock dit en outre que lors d’une interview téléphonique entre lui et Pyles le 24 juillet 1994, E.L. Pyles lui a dit qu’il était caporal de l’armée de l’air en juillet 1947, affecté au 101e Escadron des services aériens et des communications aériennes, stationné à l’installation de la radio à douze miles au sud-ouest de Roswell Army Air Field. Il visitait la base principale fréquemment en service et pour des visites d’échange de courrier, pour visiter le club des officiers non contractuels et d’autres installations.

Pyles a dit à propos de son observation: “Ce que j’ai vu une nuit était juste une strie dans le ciel. Je ne pouvais pas vous dire maintenant dans quelle direction elle allait”. Il ne se souvenait pas où, dans le ciel, il l’avait vu, disant que s’il était à la base, il pourrait probablement retrouver la direction et la dire. Pyles a déclaré: “Mais c’était il y a trop longtemps et il serait presque impossible de dire quelque chose à ce sujet”. Il a ajouté: “Je pensais que c’était juste une météorite… C’était dans un mouvement de descente, avait une longue série de choses sur elle, une sorte de queue … Il semblait que cela passait l’horizon, puis il a simplement disparu De la vue.

Pyles a ajouté que ce qu’il a vu était plus grand et plus spectaculaire qu’un météore ordinaire, et “c’est ce qui m’a attiré mon attention”.

Pflock a demandé à Pyles quand cela s’est produit, et Pyles a répondu en 1947, et qu’il ne se souvient pas du mois ou du jour. “Il me semble que c’était l’été”. Pflock a ensuite demandé s’il était sur la base principale pendant l’observation et Pyles a dit qu’il y était, en train de marcher sur un terrain d’entraînement de RAAF avec un de ses amis, également un membre du 101e dont il ne se rappelait pas le nom. Il a dit: “Nous l’avons vu tous les deux”.

Pflock a essayé d’obtenir l’heure, et Pyles a dit “Eh bien, il devait être entre, disons, 8 heures probablement … (et) onze [heures]… Il n’as pas pu déterminer l’heure mais c’était avant minuit. “Je pense que nous étions au club, club NCO.” Quelques jours plus tard il a vu l’article “RAAF Captures Flying Saucer” dans le Roswell Daily Record et s’est demandé si ce que lui et son camarade avaient vu pourrait avoir quelque chose à voir avec cela.

Pflock commente que Randle et Schmitt ont placé Pyles à la station de radio de l’armée, pas à la base RAAF. Il invite à comparer les versions, notant que Randle et Schmitt ont utilisé le mot “objet” et la direction “à son nord”. Il ajoute que ce sont des contradictions, que rien dans le rapport n’indique un véhicule d’aucune sorte, et que le rapport contient si peu d’informations pertinentes qu’il est inutile pour tenter d’établir qu’un engin mystérieux s’est écrasé quelque part au nord de Roswell le 4 juillet 1947 Ou toute autre nuit au début de juillet 1947.

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe ”, book by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus publisher, pp 42-43,57,58,59,60, 2001.

Tim Printy:

Tim Printy dit que le dernier rapport (des rapports d’un objet dans le ciel de Roswell ou de la région de Roswell) provenait d’un certain caporal Pyles qui a vu “un spectacle comme celui d’un météore depuis le sud de Roswell”. Il rapporte avoir vu ce qui semblait être “une étoile filante, mais plus grande”, qui “descendait” (Randle et Schmitt, Truth 4). Il a déclaré qu’il y avait une “lueur orange” autour de l’objet avec un “halo près de l’avant” (Randle et Schmitt, Truth 4).

Printy dit que, puisque Pyles a estimé que c’était proche du week-end, la date du 4 juillet a été ajoutée à la description.

Il commente que c’est encore un rapport réalisé 40 ans après l’événement, qui ressemble beaucoup à un météore, car les observateurs inexpérimentés confondent souvent la luminosité avec la taille. Les objets les plus brillants dans le ciel, la lune et le soleil, sont plus grands que les étoiles et beaucoup de gens indiquent souvent qu’un météore “était aussi grand que la lune.” Cependant, lorsqu’ils sont interrogés sur ce qu’ils veulent dire par là, explique Printy, ils déclarent souvent qu’ils voulaient dire que l’objet était aussi brillant que la lune.

Il ajoute que, lors de son enquête, Karl Pflock a déclaré que Pyles ne pouvait pas se souvenir de la date et ne l’a indiquée que comme étant pendant l’été 1947.

Source:

Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt:

De plus, un engin flamboyant a été vu par des religieuses catholiques, William Woody, le caporal E.L. Pyles et un groupe d’archéologues dans la région de Roswell (qui sont également nommés dans le livre), éliminant efficacement l’hypothèse du ballon. Les preuves documentées, y compris une page de journal, montre que l’accident a eu lieu tard dans la soirée du 4 juillet, corroboré par les témoins oculaires.

  • “The UFO Crash at Rowell - New research & new witnesses result in new Roswell book. Will it finally lay the controversy to rest?”, par Kevin Randle et Donald Schmitt, dans MUFON UFO Journal , N° 311, page 8, mars 1994.

Kevin Randle:

4. Le témoignage du Sgt. Pyles établit un nouveau site ou une heure de crash.

Encore une fois, une présentation trompeuse complète de ma position. Compte tenu des données reçues de Pyles, elle tend à corroborer les informations fournies par d’autres. Pyles se l’est rappelé comme étant au début de juillet 1947 et a déclaré qu’il ne croyait pas à l’explication du ballon lorsqu’il l’a lue dans le journal. Friedman a mal représenté ma position pour créer une fausse déclaration fictive.

Source:

  • “The Search for the Truth about the Roswell Crash ”, par Kevin D. Randle, dans MUFON UFO Journal , N° 330, page 11, octobre 1995.

Kevin Randle dit le que le caporal E. L. Pyles était stationné au Terrain d’Aviation de l’Armée de l’Air de Roswell en juillet 1947, affecté au 101e Escadron des services de communications et des voies aériennes. Don Schmitt a été le premier à l’interviewer et a écrit dans les notes qu’il a fournies à Randle que Pyles n’était pas de service ce soir-là. Avec un ami dont il avait oublié le nom, il traversait le terrain d’entraînement quand il a vu ce qu’il a pensé d’abord être une étoile filante, mais plus grande. Selon les notes de Schmitt, cela a traversé le ciel, avait un halo orange et s’est dirigé vers le bas.

Randle dit que Karl Pflock a interviewé Pyles quelques années plus tard et l’histoire rapportée par Pflock n’est pas tellement différente de ce que Randle a d’abord écrit. Schmitt et lui ont assigné une date, compte tenu de ce qu’ils croyaient être les déclarations véridiques de Frank Kaufmann, mais Pflock a fait une grande affaire de l’un des commentaires de Pyles à propos de la date. Pyles, selon Pflock, a déclaré: “Je ne me souviens même pas du mois ou de la date où je l’ai vu… Il me semble que c’était l’été.”

Alors Pyles a mentionné à Pflock que quelques jours plus tard, il a vu l’article du journal sur la “Soucoupe volante capturée par RAAF”, ce qui était le 8 juillet 1947. Il identifie la date au début de juillet 1947 et bien que Pyles ait déclaré à Pflock que c’était quelque temps après huit heures du soir et, compte tenu de la nature confuse de la déclaration de Pflock, cela aurait pu être aussi tard que onze heures, effectivement avant minuit, alors qu’est-ce que Pyles avait dit Schmitt et ce que Randle a signalé étaient essentiellement la même chose qu’il a dit à Pflock.

Source:

  • “When UFOs fall from the Sky ”, livre par Kevin Randle, New Page Books éditeurs, page 74, 2010.

Kevin Randle a discuté de ce que Karl Pflock a écrit dans son livre “Roswell: Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe” lorsqu’il a raconté sa version de l’histoire du caporal E. L. Pyles:

Pflock a dit que dans le livre de Kevin Randle et Don Schmitt, “The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell”, il est écrit que quinze miles au sud-ouest de la base, le caporal E. L. Pyles, dans une installation détachée, a levé les yeux et vu ce qu’il a d’abord pensé être une étoile filante, mais plus grande. Elle s’est déplacée à travers le ciel, puis est descendue, et il semblait y avoir une lueur orange autour d’elle, et un halo près de l’avant.

Randle dit que Pyles pensait que l’événement a eu lieu entre 23:00 et minuit parce que les lumières de l’installation étaient éteintes après 22:30, et il qu’il allait normalement se coucher avant minuit. Il pensait que c’était près du week-end, mais ne pouvait être sûr de la journée exacte.

Il résume plus tard dans le même livre que le caporal E. L. Pyles, au sud-ouest de Roswell, a vu une étoile filante. Il pensait que c’était une étoile qui tombait parce qu’elle était “enveloppée en orange”, et, comme les autres témoins, il pensait que cela s’était passé juste avant minuit. C’était clairement quelque chose de suffisamment grand et assez lumineux pour être vu à trente ou quarante kilomètres de distance.

Randle souligne que lui-même et Don Schmitt n’ont pas réellement attribué une date à l’histoire, et a laissé clairement qu’ils avaient pensé cru que cela s’est produit au début de juillet 1947 et, compte tenu de ce qu’ils avaient appris par d’autres, ont estimé que le jour était juste avant minuit le 4 juillet.

Il a dit que Pflock a écrit dans son livre “anti-alien” sir Roswell que lui-même avait interviewé Pyles: “J’ai demandé à Pyles quand cela a eu lieu. Il a répondu: ‘C’était en quarante-sept. Je ne me souviens pas du mois ou de la date où je l’ai vu’ J’ai ensuite demandé s’il était sur la base principale, Roswell AAF, quand il a vu la ‘strie’. Il a dit: ‘Oui, j’y étais… Je l’ai vu [accentué dans l’original] Il semble que ce soit l’été. Je marchait sur un terrain d’entraînement… là sur la base … (avec un)n ami… Nous l’avons vu tous les deux.”

Randle dit qu’il admet volontiers que cela semble dommageable pour ses recherches que lui et Don Schmitt avaient pris l’histoire d’une strie lumineuse de Pyles et ont mis une date dessus. Il semblerait qu’ils avaient pris une histoire de lumière dans le ciel nocturne qui aurait pu être vue à peu près en 1947 et l’avaient placé dans une fourchette très proche des autres témoignages et, en fait, en contradiction avec ce que le témoin a dit à Pflock.

Mais, dit-il, Pflock a écrit qu’il a ensuite “demandé l’heure de la nuit”. Pyles a dit: “Eh bien, il devait être entre, disons, huit heures, probablement … (et) onze [heures]. (Je ne pouvais pas) préciser l’heure, mais c’était avant minuit. Je pense que nous étions au club, au club NCO.’ Quelques jours plus tard, il a vu l’histoire ‘RAAF Captures Flying Saucer’ dans le Roswell Daily Record, et il s’est demandé si ce que lui et son ami avaient vu avait quelque chose à voir avec cela (reproduit ici exactement comme cela apparaît dans le livre de Pflock, parenthèses et tout)“.

Randle dit qu’après toutes ces accusations, et la suggestion que Pyles ne pouvait même pas donner un mois pour l’observation, et suggestion qu’il se souvient à peine de l’année, il fournit ensuite une fourchette dans la documentation disponible. Il a dit que c’était dans les jours précédant l’article du journal, ou en d’autres termes, cela aurait pu être le 4 juillet, comme suggéraient Randle et Schmitt, et c’était certainement dans ce cadre selon ce que Pyles a dit à Pflock. Randle et Schmitt avaient identifié l’heure comme avant minuit, de même que Pyles dans sa conversation avec Pflock.

Donc, alors que Randle était accusé de déformer le témoignage de Pyles, ce que Pflock a appris a effectivement confirmé ce que Randle avait signalé, de sorte que Pflock a eu tort de faire une grosse histoire de ce que Pyles n’aurait pas su quand il a vu la lumière, alors qu’un paragraphe plus tard, Pflock lui-même délimite la date à la première semaine de juillet.

Randle conclut:

“En fin de compte, ce que nous voyons ici, c’est que Pyles a confirmé le calendrier de Pflock, mais Pflock, pour une raison quelconque, n’a pas semblé comprendre que Pyles l’a situé au cours de la première semaine de juillet. Et les sceptiques n’ont pas pris la peine de mettre cela en cause. Ils ont juste accepté l’idée que nous avions tort et Pflock avait raison, alors qu’il est avéré que Pflock avait fondamentalement confirmé ce que nous avions dit.

Source:

Mon commentaire:

De toute évidence, ce que E. L. Pyles a dit avoir vu ressemblait entièrement à un météore. Cela ne prouve pas que ce ne soit pas un vaisseau spatial extraterrestre, mais absolument rien ne prouve que cela en aurait été un.

Les questions de divergences de date alléguées entre les versions de Schmitt et Pflock ne devraient pas être un souci réel. La date est imprécise, mais il devrait y avoir un consensus selon lequel c’était probablement quelques jours avant l’article du journal “RAAF Captures Flying Saucer” paru le 8 juillet 1947.

Printy est trompeur quand il dit dit que Pyles se rappelait seulement que c’était en été de 1947: Karl Pflock précise bien que Pyles se souvenait que c’était quelques jours avant l’article du Roswell Daily Record du 8 juillet 1947.

Kal K. Korff est très trompeur quand il assure Pyles ne se souvenait même pas d’où il se trouvait. Un lecteur pourrait penser que Pyles aurait aussi bien pu être en Alabama, ce qui rendrait le lien avec “Roswell” effectivement plus que “spéculatif”; mais en réalité le manque de précision est seulement qu’il aurait été soit sur la base de Roswell soit quelques kilomètres plus au sud à la station radio. Quel que ce soit bonne localisation de ces deux localisations, c’est suffisamment géographiquement lié à l’incident de Roswell, et ne peut être écarté pour des raisons géographiques.

Cependant, la contradiction sur la localisation m’intrigue.

Historique du document:

Version:Créé/changé par:Date:Description:
1.0Patrick Gross25 avril 2017Première publication.

Elizabeth Tulk

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/elizabethtulk.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Elizabeth Tulk

(Elizabeth TULK, Elizabeth WILCOX).(No photograph)

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Under construction.

Elizabeth Tulk is the daughter of George Wilcox, Chaves County sheriff in Roswell at the time of the incident. The other daughter of George Wilcox is Phyllis McGuire.

Chaves County Sheriff George Wilcox was the first authority contacted by William Brazel after he discovered the unusual debris at the Foster ranch near Corona. Wilcox subsequently contacted the Roswell Army Air Field. Wilcox himself never referred to the event publicly.

Affidavits:

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is Elizabeth Tulk

(2) My Address is [Confidential]

(3) I am retired

(4) In July 1947, I visited my parents in Roswell, New Mexico. On the day my husband and I arrived, there were jeeps and some Air Force people at the county jail.

(5) My husband, Jay, went to see my father. He asked, “What’s going on, George?” My father said, “Well, we had this man come in saying there was this flying saucer and brought him a piece of it; he said it looked like burned grass out there (where the material was found).

(6) My mother wouldn’t talk about the event for years. However, as the years went along, my mother would say, “Remember the time we had the flying saucer in Roswell?” I know an article she wrote that said, “We do not to this day know whether it was a flying saucer, because they told my husband not to say a word.” When the Air Force came and picked up the pieces, she said they reprimanded him not to discuss the event. The article was submitted to the readers Digest and delivered to the Roswell Historical Society in 1980.

(7) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement. It is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Elizabeth Tulk
(Signature)

April 22, 1991
(Date)

Signature witnessed by
Christine Tulk
(Name)

Interviews and public statements:

Investigator Donald R. Schmitt has recorded an interview with Elizabeth Tulk:

  • “UFO Crash At Roswell: An Audio Documentary ”, Audio CD, by Donald R. Schmitt, Baraka Foundation.

This audio CD can be oredered at
http://theufostore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=T&Product_Code=ros-aud&Category_Code=roswell&Product_Count=22
or
http://www.pop-informationen.de/audio_documentary_9372876.htm
or
http://www.emusic.com/cd/10588/10588500.html?sourceid=00287001998538184534&bfinfo=cdpagealbum

Investigators notes and comments:

Under construction.

Ellis Boldra

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/ellisboldra.htm

Roswell 1947 - Allegedly involved people

Ellis Boldra

(Ellis BOLDRA, Ellis K. BOLDRA, Ellis KEATING BOLDRA). |
---|---

Biography:

Ellis Boldra is, according to a book on the Roswell incident by investigators Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt, a Major, and an engineer, who, according to statements by his son Greg Ellis and friends of Ellis Boldra, found Roswell debris in Roswell in “the engineering department” in 1952.

I could independently verify that Ellis Boldra was born March 12, 1916, in Roswell, Chaves County, New Mexico, and passed in September 1984.

As far as I know, Ellis Boldra has never publicly spoken in person on this.

Elmer Landry

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/elmerlandry.htm

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Emily Simms

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/ethelsims.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Ethel Sims

(Ethel SIMS, Ethel Dunbar SIMS, Ethel Simmons SIMS, Ethel SIMMS, Emily SIMS, Emily SIMMS).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

I was able to verify outside any UFO literature that General William Hugh Blanchard (1916 - 1966) had a wife named Ethel Dunbar Sims, aka Ethel Simmons Sims, born Feb. 28, 1913, deceased in Fort Worth, Texas, in 1998 after suffering Alzheimer’s disease.

See for example: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=175759500

In the sources below, her name is continuously misspelled.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Mrs. Sims.

Interviews and public statements:

There are no pubilc statements by Mrs. Sims.

Investigators notes and comments:

Jerome Clark:

Only those who had not seen the material were fooled. The late Colonel Blanchard’s former wife Emily Simms recalled, “At first he thought it might be Russian because of the strange symbols on it. Later on, he realized it wasn’t Russian either.”

The author gives no source reference.

Source:

  • “The Roswell UFO Crash (UFO Crashes Part III) ”, article by Jerome Clark, in FATE Magazine , USA, March 1988.

Jean Sider:

This author says that former Blanchard’s wife, Emily Sims [sic], stated that her ex-husband knew perfectly well that the remains of the craft he had sent to Fort Worth were not those of a balloon of any kind. “At first he thought that the object could be Russian because of the strange symbols on some of the debris. Later he realized that this could not be the correct solution.”

The author gives no source reference.

Source:

  • “Ces OVNIS Qui Font Peur ”, book by Jean Sider, Axis Mundi publisher, France, page 86, 1990.

Karl Pflock:

[…]

[…] Blanchard’s first wife, Ethel Simms, told Roswell Researcher William Moore her husband “first thought it might be Russian because of the strange symbols on it. Later on, he realized it wasn’t russian either.” (6)

[…]

(6) William Moore “Crashed Saucers: Evidence in Search of Proof” in MUFON Symposium Proceedings (Seguin, Tex.: Mutual UFO Network, 1985), p. 60; […]

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe ”, book by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus publisher, page 96, 2001.

Robert Durrant:

This author reproduced what Pflock had said in “Roswell - Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe”.

Source:

  • “Project Mogul Still a Flight of Fancy ”, article by Robert Durant, in International UFO Reporter (IUR), CUFOS, USA, page 24, spring 2001.

My comment:

This is all a nice example of shoddy investigation. Firstly, the “witness” name is constantly misspelled. Second, it is obvious that what she told has been truncated, as she said it was not Russian “either”. “Either” here means that another explanation had been discarded - but we are not told what this other discarded explanation was. Alien? Weather balloon? Something else?

Then, of course, one must be quite gullible in thing that if it was not Russian, then it was alien. Of course not. It only means that the symbols were not Russian. Aliens symbols surely would not have been Russian, but the symbols claimed to have existed on tapes of the Mogul balloons were of course not Russian either, so the testimony proves absolutely nothing one was or another that allows to discriminate between the “Alien” and the “Mogul” thesis.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 26, 2017First published.

Ernest Lueras

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/ernestlueras.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Ernest Lueras

(Ernest LUERAS).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to Thomas Carey and Donald Schmitt, Ernet Lueras was a rancner of farmer who had worked with William “Mack” Brazel, and was at the gas station of corona when they interviewed him.

According to the newspaper Detroit Free Press , Detroit, Michigan, for July 6, 1997, page 2, who interviewed Ernest Lueras, he had been working on the Foster ranch in 1947. In 1997, they wrote, Lueras was 65, mayor of Corona and owner of the town’s Shell service station.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Ernest Lueras.

Interviews and public statements:

Detroit Free Press:

This newspaper interviewed Lueras in 1997 for an article about the Roswell incident.

[…]

[…] When Brazel got back to Corona, after spending a week in Roswell with Army Air Force authorities, he clammed up about the crash, said Lueras, who was working on the Foster ranch in 1947.

“They brainwashed him or something,” Lueras said of Brazel. “After that as soon as he saw someone drive up to the house, he would get on his horse and ride off.”

[…]

Brazel decided to make the trip down the road to where the Army air base was, 105 miles southeast of Corona, 75 miles southeast of the pasture, the road down to Roswell. “Roswell. That’s a lot of false advertising [*],” said Ernest Lueras, 65, mayor of Corona and owner of the town’s Shell service station.

[…]

[*] Meaning, in the same direction the article went, that the crash site was not “in Roswell” but near Corona.

Source:

  • “$15 million Associated Press Folks in Corona, N.M., call Roswell’s claim to fame ‘false advertising,’ pitch own tale ”, article by Ollie Reed Jr. in the newspaper Detroit Free Press , Detroit, Michigan, page 2, July 6, 1997.

Investigators notes and comments:

Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt:

A former ranch hand of Brazel’s, Ernest Lueras, was recently interviewed by the authors at his Corona filling station. Lueras recalled a time when he and Mack drove from Corona to Tularosa, a drive that on today’s modern roads takes three hours to complete. The trip was made sometime after the 1947 events but before Mack left Corona for good to open his own business in Las Cruces (a meat-packing enterprise). The reason Lueras recalls this drive so vividly after all these years is Brazel’s very odd behavior. After making several attempts at conversation, Lueras finally gave up. The rest of the trip was made in total silence. Lueras was nonplussed, and did not know what to make of the silent treatment from his boss. Today, Lueras states his belief that ‘They (the military) really messed him up.”

Source:

  • “Mack Brazel Reconsidered ”, article below by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) bulletin International UFO Reporter (IUR), Winter 1999.

The authors say that maybe out of loyalty to his country or just fear and deep concern for the safety and well-being of his family, William “Mack” Brazel never talked of the incident, and went out of his way to avoid any conversation about this bleak time in his life.

They say hired workers such as Ernest Lueras remember “Mack“‘s demeanor had changed, Lueras saying:

“There was one particular time I rode along with him down to Tularosa.” “This was right after he got into all that trouble with the Army. He didn’t say anything. I tried to strike up a conversation. Not a word was said for the entire time I was with him. They (the military) really messed him up.”

The authors say this comes from a “personal interview” with Ernest Lueras in 2000.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, New Page Books publishers, pp 73-74, 2007.

Ernest Robert Robbins

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/ernestrobbins.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Ernest Robbins

(Ernest ROBBINS, Ernest R. ROBBINS, Ernest Robert ROBBINS). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biogreaphy:

According to an article by the Dallas Observer available in this page, Ann Robbins said to have been the wife of Technical Sergeant Ernest Robert Robbins, airplane repair man with an Intelligence clearance, in service at the Roswell Army Air field at the time of the incident. Ernest Robbins apparently died in 2000.

Statements:

Ernest Robbins never publicly said a word on the Roswell incident.

No ufologist as of 2006 ever said he did.

Ernest Robbins’s widow, Ann Robbins, apparently stated to a journalist what his husband had revealed to her about his involvment in the incident and what the incident really was.

This is documented here.

Felix Martucci

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/felixmartucci.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Felix Martucci

(Felix MARTUCCI). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Felix Martucci was 1st Lieutenant of 393th Bomber Squadron at Roswell Army Air Field and generally was assigned the role of bombardier aboard the squadron’s B-29’s.

Affidavits:

None exist.

Intreviews and public statements:

It does not seem to me that there is any public statement from Felix Martucci in person.

Investigators’ notes and comments:

Patrick Gross, April 2005:

It said that it is the other crewmember Robert Slusher who heard Felix Martucci exclaim “we made history” or “Boys, we just made history!” or even in later summaries “Boys, we just made the history books!” right after the B-29 “Straight Flush” lifted off the runway at Carswell Army Air Field, Fort Worth, Texas, for the return flight to Roswell Army Air Field, New Mexico.

The quote “we made history” was reported in “Crash at Corona”, the book on the incident by Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner [1], as well as by ufologist Leonard Stringfield [2], and skeptics commented that it is just not known to what this comment was supposed to apply to.

It is also attributed to Martucci by one other crewmember who remained anonymous and goes under the pseudonym of “Tim” wo contacted ufologist Barry Greenwood in 1989 with the same account as Slusher but claiming he is threatened and does not want to himself known. “Tim” again allegedly surfaced in 2001 by contacting ufologist George Filer, but this time with an “enhanced” story which gives reason for thinking that “Tim” might simply be a defrauder using Robert Slusher’s story as a baseline, and not a second hand witness of real statements by Felix Martucci.

This flight is said to have transported a hastily constructed crate, unpainted and unmarked, containing wreckage or bodies gathered at a site of the Roswell incident. The crate is said to be of approximately 5 feet high, 4 feet wide and 15 feet long.

The corresponding entry in the log for July 1947 at Roswell Army Air Field allegedly says: “July 9, 1947 DEH, Ship 7301. B-29. Cross-country. Ft. Worth and return. Flight time 1 hr. 55 mins.”

Other crew member Robert Slusher wrote in his signed affidavit [3] that Martucci met a old classmate of his when landing at Carswell, this old friend was then a mortician and it was later implied that the content of the crate was related to Martucci’s friend profession.

Again, some have later written that Felix Martucci said that, but other previously simply said that Robert Slusher saw it, and not that Felix Martucci said anything of the sort.

It seems that Felix Martucci refused to discuss anything of his participation in the flight. Ufologists Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt have reported that they tried to interview him but that he did not show up at the rendez-vous, and that he may have passed away afterwards. Karl Pflocks writes in his 2001 book [4] that Martucci is “conveniently” deceased.

Footnotes:

  • [1] “Crash at Corona ”, book by Stanton T. Friedman and Don Berliner, Paragon House Publishers, page 123, August 1992.
  • [2] “Roswell and the X-15: Ufo Basics ”, article by Leonard Stringfield, MUFON Ufo Journal #259, 3-7, November 1989.
  • [3] “Affidavit ”, by Robert Slusher, available here, Karl Pflock, Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR), May 23, 1993.
  • [4] “Roswell - Inconvenient facts and the will to believe ”, book by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus Books publisher, page 32, 2001.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 14, 2005First published.

Fleck Danley

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/fleckdanley.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Fleck Danley

(Fleck DANLEY, James Fleck DANLEY, F. “Fleck” DANLEY).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

I found in the Albuquerque Journal from Albuquerque, New Mexico, Page 4, August 30, 1947, a mention of Fleck Danley (involved in the organization of a local rodes show).

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Feck Danley.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no public statement by Feck Danley.

Investigators notes and comments:

Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner:

These authors said the book “The Roswell Incident” and subsequently “UFO Crash at Roswell” suggested that Barnett stumbled upon the main part of the craft that had left its pieces on the Foster ranch near Corona, rather than another craft that had crashed well to the west.

They say that in the absence of direct testimony from Barney Barnett, there is only secondhand information, but it all points away from Corona as a crash site. One item of information is that James Fleck Danley, Barney Barnett’s boss, made it clear that Barney Barnett’s territory extended to the west of his office in Socorro, not to the north or east.

Source:

  • “Crash at Corona ”, book by Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner, Marlowe publishers, page 88, 1992.

Kevin Randle and Thomas Carey:

A 1992 CUFOS and FUFOR document said that Barney Barney had told his boss Fleck Danley, in the Magdalena office 27 miles west of Socorro, the day the crash happened, that it occurred “in the Plains.”

It is said that James “Fleck” Danley is one of the second-hand sources that testified about what Barney Barnett had said, and Danley testified that Barnett said the crash occurred northwest of Magdalena.

Researchers Kevin Randle and Thomas Carey indicated that Barnett’s testimony to others, including his boss Fleck Danley, must be wrong. It is specifid that Kevin Randle personally interviewed Danley on May 14, 1991.

Source:

  • “The Plains of San Agustin Controversy, July 1947: Gerald Anderson, Barney Barnett, and the Archaeologists ”, summary report of the Plains of San Agustin Conference (Crash III) sponsored by the Center for UFO Studies and the Fund for UFO Research, Chicago, Illinois, February 15-16, 1992.

Stanton Friedman:

Stanton Friedman says that Barney Barnett did tell Fleck Danley the crash was “in the Plains” and Friedman found out only a few years ago that he had told Harold Baca “in the Plains” but did not tell this to the others such as the Maltais couple.

Source:

Steve Kaeser:

This investigator said:

“I talked very briefly by telephone to Faith Danley, who is the wife of “Fleck” Danley, who was Barney Barnett’s boss. She’s, to be honest, very tired of talking to UFO people and wants to be left alone. But she agreed to talk for a few minutes and said, ‘Oh, yes. Fleck went out to this crash also.’ I asked if she knew when the crash had occurred, and she didn’t know the date, but said it occurred in the summer of 1947. When asked where the crash had occurred, she said that by her recollection the crash was between Magdalena and Socorro. The same place we’ve been looking at for this crash site, and not out on the “Plains” at all.”

Source:

Ryan S. Wood:

Ryan S. Wood mentions that Barney Barnett had told his boss Fleck Danley of the day the Roswell crash happened, and Stanton Friedman and other researchers have spoken with Danley and others.

Source:

  • “Majic Eyes Only: Earth’s Encounters with Extraterrestrial Technology ”, book by Ryan S. Wood, page 68, 2005.

The NICAP website:

Unfortunately, Barnett died before anyone had the opportunity to interview him. Investigators were forced to rely on the information as reported by Barnett’s family and friends. Alice Knight, Vern Maltais, Harold Baca, and J. F. “Fleck” Danley all reported that Barnett had mentioned the story of the crashed alien ship to them. All of them spoke of Barnett in the highest terms, and all said that he was a reliable, fine man who was not given to practical jokes, nor was he one who told tall tales.

Source:

Anthony Bragalia:

Anthony Bragalia told that James “Fleck” Danley was Barney Barnett’s boss during the 1940s and 1950s. Danley was on the Water Conservation Board in Magdalena, NM. He and his wife Beth recall Barney fondly and favorably as well, and recall the time when Barney quietly told about the UFO crash, corroborating the claims of the Maltais couple. Danley explained in an interview in 1979, before all of the Roswell books, that Barney Barnett had mentioned to him his witnessing of a crashed flying saucer. Some years later, Danley described Barney “one of the most honest men I ever knew. I never knew Barney to lie. Not about anything.”

Source:

  • “The “Other Roswell Crash: The Secret of the Plains ”, article by Anthony Bragalia, ufocon.blogspot.com, May 2010.

Kevin Randle:

I think every book written about the Roswell case, from Bill Moore’s ‘The Roswell Incident’ to my ‘UFO Crash At Roswell’ to Stan Friedman’s ‘Crash At Corona’ mentions Barney Barnett. Each makes it clear that no one interviewed Barnett because he had died before any of us began to search for information. His tale is well told by various relatives and friends such as Vern Maltais, Alice Knight, Harold Baca and Fleck Danley.

Source:

Kevin Randle indicates that in 1947, F. “Fleck” Danley was Barney Barnett’s boss. He was interrogated by William Moore about Barney Barnett’s story, and Danley told him that Barnett had come to the office one day and said flying saucers were real; but Danley being in a bad mood the did not discuss this further. Danley, thinking again about it, felt bad and asked Barnett about it, and Barnett mentioned something about the “Flats” but that was all that was remembered.

William Moore talked again to Danley four months later, and this time Danley told him he remembered for sure that the date was in the Summer of 1947.

Other interviews with Danley indicated that he did not have a clear memory of when Barnett told him about the crashed saucer, and did not have a clear idea of where Barnett had been on the day he told Danley about the saucer.

Danley mentioned that Barnett was a soil conservation engineer working out of Socorroo and at a satellite office in Magdalena. He mentioned that Barnett occasionally went to Lincoln County but that this was rare. Danley remembered Barnett saying something about Carrizozo, and that Barnett told him about the crash but he did not remember him saying anything about bodies and creatures.

Stanton Friedman said he interviewed again Danley and several others in 1990 who knew Barnett and was again told that the crash was “in the Plains”.

Source:

Kevin Randle mentions that J. F. “Fleck” Danley had been Barnett’s boss in 1947, and told that he had heard the tale of a saucer crash directly from Barnett. Pushed by investigator William Moore, Danley thought the date of this story might have been 1947.

Randle says that when he talked to Danley himself it was clear that he had no real idea of when Barnett had mentioned the crash, that it could have been 1947, but that if he had pushed him he could have gotten him to come up with another date. Kevin Randle says that William Moore knew of the shaky nature of the Danley date, so that he could have understood that Barnetts story had nothing to do with the Roswell UFO crash.

Source:

Kevin Randle explains that William Moore said the quite revelatory thing that “The original hypothesis was that the object had come down in two places, the first being the Brazel site, the second being the Plains of San Agustin, and that in 1985 I abandoned [it] simply because the only witness who put the thing in the Plains of San Agustin at all was Barnett’s boss, Danley, [who] it turned out, was not sure of the place, and it turned out that Barnett could have been up at the Brazel site…”

Kevin Randle indicates that Bill Moore told this on May 11, 1991, as he was interviewed by Antonio Huneeus and Javier Sierra about some of the things that Shandera had said earlier.

Source:

My summary and comment:

“Fleck Danley” was first mentioned in “The Roswell Incident” by Charles Berlitz and William Moore on page 198.

The controversy was about the claims based on second-hand statements by people who had known one Barney Barnett as the alleged witness of a saucer crash in New Mexico in 1947. Barnett had died before any investigator could interview him directly, so others who had known him were interviewed. It resulted in claims by some researchers that the crash was in the “Plains of San Augustin”, and/or that it occurred on July 2, 1947. Other researchers rejected the Barnett story and this crash site on various grounds.

One of the people who are said to have known Barney Barnett personally was Fleck Danley, apparently his boss at the time of the Rowell incident, and this file tells, above, what he said to various researchers who interviewed him.

The controversy is mostly between Stanton Friedman, who advocates for a crash site in the Plains of San Agustin, and Kevin Randle, who advocates that this site has nothing to do with the Roswell incident.

Francis Cassidy

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/franciscassidy.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Francis Cassidy

(Francis CASSIDY, Francis “Frank” CASSIDY, Sarah MOUNCE).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to Roswell incident investigators Carey and Schmitt (see below), Francis “Franck” Cassidy was a Private of the 1359th Military Police Company at the Roswell Army Air Force Base in 1947.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit neither by Francis Cassidy not by his wife Sarah Mounce.

Interviews and public statements:

I found no public statement neither by Francis Cassidy not by his wife Sarah Mounce.

Investigators notes and comments:

Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt:

In their 2007 book, these authors said that Private Francis “Franck” Cassidy, of the 1359th Military Police Company, who was at Roswell in 1947, told in his final days in 1976 to his wife Sarah Mounce that as he was “guarding Hangar P-3” he saw the bodies inside…”

This was then reproduced on many websites and books, with or without source reference.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-year Cover-up ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, Career Press, page 198, 2007.

My comments:

I found nothing else about the alleged testimony in the ufology litterature so far; needless to say that Francis Cassidy is an alleged second-hand witness, and that the collected information is very minimal, and basic information such as when Mrs. Mounce told the story and to whom she told it appears to be missing.

What I found is a “Sarah Inez Cassidy Mounce” who passed away at 79 on March 31, 2017, ie four days before I wrote these lines. She was born July 19, 1937 in Dexter, New Mexico. She was the first female Deputy Sherriff in Benton County, as well as the first female dispatcher for the New Mexico State Police. Her husband was Loyd Mounce; she had a son, Robert Cassidy, and a daughter, Mary Cassidy, four brothers, six sisters and her parents.

I think it is very odd that the names Mounce and Cassidy appear, and that she had apparently been working with the NM police. Is this all just a coincidence? Was Francis Cassidy a previous husband?

George Newling

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/georgenewling.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

George Newling

(George NEWLING, George A. NEWLING). |
---|---

Biography:

George Newling is supposedly a member of the military who was at the Roswell Army Air Field at the time of the incident. No other biographical information was found by this webmaster so far.

Affidavits:

I did not locate any affidavit by George Newling.

Interviews and public statements:

George Newling was interviewed on his involvement in the Roswell incident for a documentary on the incident by the Science-Fiction channel, USA, which was aired in 2002.

Investigators notes and comments:

Donald R. Burleson

Donald R. Burleson, PhD, is a UFO researcher, writer of both fiction and non-fiction. He studied at Yale University (with the Institute of Far Eastern Languages), and pursued graduate studies at Midwestern State University (Texas), the University of Massachusetts (Amherst), Rivier College (New Hampshire), and Columbia Pacific University (San Rafael, California). He holds Master’s degrees both in mathematics and in English, and a Ph.D. in English literature, with a dissertation on H. P. Lovecraft. He has taught at many colleges and universities, most recently at Eastern New Mexico University in Roswell. He once held a Top Secret security clearance in U.S. Air Force Intelligence as a Chinese language specialist. He is also fluent in Spanish and has a reading knowledge of French and smatterings of several other languages. He is a longtime member of the American Cryptogram Association, and spoke on national television in the US about the Roswell incident. He is the author, among other publications, of the book “UFOs and the murder of Marylin Monroe.”

He has announced that a witness in the Roswell incident, Mr. George Newling, who was an enlisted man in the Army stationed at Roswell Army Air Field in 1947 at the time of the Roswell incident, has told researchers, including himself, that in October 1947 he was a member of a ground crew doing a preflight check on a B-29 and happened to look into the open bomb bay, where he saw a large, silvery-metallic disc-like object wedged into the bay.

George Newling has said that he only got a glimpse on the object, because immediately there was a military policeman on each arm, hauling him away.

When Donald Burleson showed George Newling a printout of enhanced enlargement of one of the spots of the famous Lubbock pictures, without telling him what it was, George Newling “blinked once and said”, ""That’s what I saw in the bomb bay."" The printout shown was a roundish irregular object with a beehive-type texture.

Source:

  • “The Burleson Enhancement of Object LL-12 in the “Lubbock Lights” Group of UFOs ”, by Donald R. Burleson, PhD, on the website Mesa Black Press at www.blackmesapress.com/page6.htm

Comments found on the Internet:

Thomas J. Carey, a known investigator on the Roswell incident who participated in the Sci Fi Channel investigation, indicates that the interview of George Newling among others for the Sci Fi Channel documentary was in his presence with the Sci Fi channel crew on September 20, 2002, at the former site of Bomb Pit No. 1 on the air base of Roswell, where on July 9, 1947, a wooden crate allegedly containing either three or four alien bodies was loaded into the bomb bay of a waiting B-29 to fly them to Fort Worth, Texas.

Source:

Richard H. Hall, one of the most prominent people in the field of ufology, has seen the Sci-Fi-Channel Roswell special in 2002 and wrote a comment on the show which he published on the UFO Updates discussion list. He wondered about George Newling “who saw something (a?) gray [not at all clear to me who he was and what he was talking about]“.

He has asked on the credentials and the credibility of Newling, whether ufologists on UFOupdates knew that he was really “there” and whether his stories is credible. I have not seen answers by other ufologist on that specific matter.

Source:

In late 2005, I have made a search in the Roswell incident literature and on the Internet, to seek answers to Richard Hall’s question. I found nearly nothing, with the exception of a 2 pages PDF file by the US Army Corps of Engineers, an appendix document, which dealt with the former Walker Air Force Base.

This document contains a reference to George Newling, inasmuch as one Mr George Newling’s memories on the role and history of Walker AFB’s Hangar 2 is quoted. George Newling remembers a plane crash with a fire there, which occurred in the late sixties.

(I am not hereby suggesting that the Roswell incident is this airplane crash, it it not. I am hereby suggesting that the only link between a Mr. George Newling and the Air Force and the Roswell air base I could find so far independantly from his statements as I know them is that it appears that there is a Mr. George Newling who has military memories of events at the Roswel air base dated from en end of the sixties.)

Source:

Glenn Dennis

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/glenndennis.htm

Glenn Deniis was employed in 1947 as mortician at the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell.

AFFIDAVIT

  1. My name is Glenn Dennis

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am ( ) employed as: ____ ( ) retired,

(4) In July 1947, I was a mortician, working for the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell, which had a contract to provide mortuary services for the Roswell Army Air Field. One afternoon, around 1:15 or 1:30, I received a call from the base mortuary officer who asked what was the smallest size hermetically sealed casket that we had in stock. He said, “We need to know this in case something comes up in the future.” He asked how long it would take to get one, and I assured him I could get one for him the following day. He said he would call back if they needed one.

(5) About 45 minutes to an hour later, he called back and asked me to describe the preparation for bodies that had been lying out on the desert for a period of time. Before I could answer, he said he specifically wanted to know what effect the preparation procedures would have on the body’s chemical compounds, blood and tissues. I explained that our chemicals were mainly strong solutions of formaldehyde and water, and that the procedure would probably alter the body’s chemical composition. I offered to come out to the base to assist with any problem he might have, but he reiterated that the information was for future use. I suggested that if he had such a situation that I would try to freeze the body in dry ice for storage and transportation.

(6) Approximately a hour or an hour and 15 minutes later, I got a call to transport a serviceman who had a laceration on his head and perhaps a fractured nose. I gave him first aid and drove him out to the base. I got there around 5:00 PM.

(7) Although I was a civilian, I usually had free access on the base because they knew me. I drove the ambulance around to the back of the base infirmary and parked it next to another ambulance. The door was open and inside I saw some wreckage. There were several pieces which looked like the bottom of a canoe, about three feet in length. It resembled stainless steel with a purple hue, as if it had been exposed to high temperature. There was some strange-looking writing on the material resembling Egyptian hieroglyphics. Also there were two MPs present.

(8) I checked the airman in and went to the staff lounge to have a Coke. I intended to look for a nurse, a 2nd Lieutenant, who had been commissioned about three months earlier right out of college. She was 23 years of age at the time (I was 22). I saw her coming out of one of the examining rooms with a cloth over her mouth. She said, “My gosh, get out of here or you’re going to be in a lot of trouble.” She went into another door where a Captain stood. He asked me who I was and what I was doing here. I told him, and he instructed me to stay there. I said, “It looks like you’ve got a crash; would you like me to get ready?” He told me to stay right there. Then two MPs came up and began to escort me out of the infirmary. They said they had orders to follow me out to the funeral home.

(9) We got about 10 or 15 feet when I heard a voice say, “We’re not through with that SOB. Bring him back.” There was another Captain, a redhead with the meanest-looking eyes I had ever seen, who said, “You did not see anything, there was no crash here, and if you say anything you could get into a lot of trouble.” I said, “Hey look mister, I’m a civilian and you can’t do a damn thing to me.” He said, “Yes we can; somebody will be picking your bones out of the sand.” There was a black Sergeant with a pad in his hand who said, “He would make good dog food for our dogs.” The Captain said, “Get the SOB out.” The MPs followed me back to the funeral home.

(10) The next day, I tried to call the nurse to see what was going on. About 11:00 AM, she called the funeral home and said, “I need to talk to you.” We agreed to meet at the officers club. She was very upset. She said, “Before I talk to you, you have to give me a sacred oath that you will never mention my name, because I could get into a lot of trouble.” I agreed.

(11) She said she had gone to get supplies in a room where two doctors were performing a preliminary autopsy. The doctors said they needed her to take notes during the procedure. She said she had never smelled anything so horrible in her life, and the sight was the most gruesome she had ever seen. She said, “This was something no one has ever seen.” As she spoke, I was concerned that she might go into shock.

(12) She drew me a diagram of the bodies, including an arm with a hand that had only four fingers; the doctors noted that on the end of the fingers were little pads resembling suction cups. She said the head was disproportionately large for the body; the eyes were deeply set; the skulls were flexible; the nose was concave with only two orifices; the mouth was a fine slit, and the doctors said there was heavy cartilage instead of teeth. The ears were only small orifices with flaps. They had no hair, and the skin was black—perhaps due to exposure in the sun. She gave me the drawings.

(13) There were three bodies; two were very mangled and dismembered, as if destroyed by predators; one was fairly intact. They were three-and-a-half to four feet tall. She told me the doctors said: “This isn’t anything we’ve ever see before; there’s nothing in the medical textbooks like this.” She said she and the doctors became ill. They had to turn off the air conditioning and were afraid the smell would go through the hospital. They had to move the operation to an airplane hangar.

(14) I drove her back to the officers’ barracks. The next day I called the hospital to see how she was, and they said she wasn’t available. I tried to get her for several days, and finally got one of the nurses who said the Lieutenant had been transferred out with some other personnel. About 10 days to two weeks later, I got a letter from her with an APO number. She indicated we could discuss the incident by letter in the future. I wrote back to her and about two weeks later the letter came back marked “Return to Sender—DECEASED.” Later, one of the nurses at the base said the rumor was that she and five other nurses had been on a training mission and had been killed in a plane crash.

(15) Sheriff George Wilcox and my father were very close friends. The Sheriff went to my folks’ house the morning after the events at the base and said to my father, “I don’t know what kind of trouble Glenn’s in, but you tell your son that he doesn’t know anything and hasn’t seen anything at the base.” He added, “They want you and your wife’s name, and they want your and your children’s addresses.” My father immediately drove to the funeral home and asked me what kind of trouble I was in. He related the conversation with Sheriff Wilcox, and so I told him about the events of the previous day. He is the only person to whom I have told this story until recently.

(16) I had filed away the sketches the nurse gave me that day. Recently, at the request of a researcher, I tried to locate my personal files at the funeral home, but they had all been destroyed.

(17) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: Glenn Dennis

Date: 8-7-91

Signature witnessed by: Walter G. Haut

At the time of the writing of the above affidavit, artist Walter Henn drew the following sketches under the direction of Glenn Dennis. The sketches are to depict the drawing allegedly made for Dennis by the nurse:

Larry King:“We start in Roswell, New Mexico with two guys who were there, Walter Haut, who was the United States Air Force public information officer at Roswell Army Air Field, and Glenn Dennis, who was working at the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell, New Mexico.”
[snip]
Larry King:“What call did you get, Glenn?”
Glenn Dennis:“I received a call from the mortuary officer, informing…”
[snip - Larry king interrupts to introduce other items.]
Larry King:“Glenn, what call did you get?”
Glenn Dennis:“I received a call from the mortuary officer at the base, asking me how many infant hermetically sealed caskets we had, three-and-a-half to four feet, in stock. And I told him, I said…”
Larry King:“What did you make of that?”
Glenn Dennis:“…we only had one. It’s not military. But I said, I can call the Amarillo, Texas, coffin company by 3:00 this afternoon and have all you need by noon tomorrow [Unintelligible] I said, “What’s going on out there?” And he said, “That’s not important.” Then he calls me back later and he wants to know how embalming chemical would alter the tissues, the stomach contents, and what was our preparation [Unintelligible] bodies laying out in the elements for days. I said, Sir, we have to - the mortuary officer has to tell us what he wants and how he wants it and what procedure he wants us to follow. And he became a little bit upset. But anyway, that was the way that it all started off with me right there.
[snip - Larry King interviews another guest and introduces further guests.]
Larry King:“Glenn, back to you. What was the follow-up? What was the eventual result? Did they ever order any of these caskets? Glenn?”
Glenn Dennis:“Yes?”
Larry King:“Did they order, did the Army Air Force ever order anything from the funeral home?”
Glenn Dennis:“No, sir, they did not. They did not order anything.”
Larry King:“How do you know the Air Force was calling you?”
Glenn Dennis:“Well, because I knew the mortuary officer out there very well. We were close friends.”
Larry King:“Oh.”
Glenn Dennis:“And I knew all the people out there. We worked at the hospital. We had the only ambulance business, and we were involved quite a bit out at the base. Also, we had a military contract. So I knew them all.”
[snip - Larry King interviews other guests, and asks their opinions on the motives for a cover-up.]
Larry King:“Glenn, why do you think they are not releasing it?”
Glenn Dennis:“Well, from what I’ve been told, and being interviewed, the problem is that whoever has this energy could control the whole world and if we don’t have the elements on our planet or anything else to reproduce these, then it could be a problem. I’ve heard this from three or four different sources and maybe that’s true. I don’t know. If you remember, the Orson Welles deal.”
Larry King:“War of the Worlds.”
Glenn Dennis:“Yes.”
Larry King:“Yes.”
Glenn Dennis:“And they didn’t know if that would happen in New Mexico or around the world, or anything else if we were being invaded by aliens.”
[snip - Larry King interviews other guests.]
Larry King:“Now, Glenn, you still live, you live in Roswell. Do you believe there’s…”
Glenn Dennis:“That’s true…”
[Crosstalk]
Larry King:“Do you believe there’s still stuff there?”
Glenn Dennis:“Well, they go out every year, every year after all of the snows and the winter. These government people go out with Geiger counters and everything else, and they have this all marked off up there. And I don’t know if they found anything else or not because they do not consult us anymore at all. But I do know the ranchers and I know people up there because our mortuary has been involved up there with most of it, I mean, with the people there, and very seldom will we ever talk about it. Once in a while, we’ll sit down and mention something, but not very often.”
[snip - Larry King interviews other guests.]
Larry King:“Did you ever see anything in a coffin, Glenn?”
Glenn Dennis:“No, I did not. I did not see it. They were all shipped out in what we call body bags and put in a hermetically sealed container and was flown directly to Wright-Patterson.”
Larry King:“Glenn, do you think we’ll ever going to know the whole story?”
Glenn Dennis:“Well, not at the rate it’s going now. There’s some sightings just recently in Australia and New Zealand and also I have a call the other day that people that had been in Egypt visiting the pyramids and they shut them down for three or four days and no tourists going out there on a count of the sightings.”
Larry King:“Go ahead, Glenn.”
Glenn Dennis:“I don’t know. I think more of the public understands this, the more they know about it, the better the whole world will be.”
[snip - Larry King interviews other guests.]
Larry King:“We thank Glen Dennis for spending all this time with us. He worked at the Ballard Funeral Home in Roswell when all this happened.”

Under construction.

Greg Boldra

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/gregboldra.htm

Roswell 1947 - Involved people

Greg Boldra

(Greg BOLDRA).No photo

Biography:

I have no independently confirmed information on Greg Boldra, who is, according to investigators, the son of Major Ellis Boldra, an engineer said to have been stationed in Roswell at least in 1952.

Affidavits:

I did not locate any affidavit by Greg Boldra.

Interviews and public statements:

I have not found that Greg Boldra made any public statements related to the Roswell incident.

Investigators information:

Roswell incident investigators Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt report in one of their book that on December 5, 1991, they interviewed Greg Boldra, son of Ellis Boldra, and friends of the latter.

They so learned that Ellis Boldra was a Major and engineer stationed in Roswell, who in 1952 samples of the Roswell incident’s debris locked in a safe in the engineering office. Ellis Boldra is said to have found the sample thin, incredibly strong, he could not cut it with a variety of tools and it dissipated heat in some manner. When crumpled, it quickly returned to its original shape.

He is said to have subjected the sample to the flame of an acetylene torch and the sample did not melt. It did not glow when heated, and once the flame was removed, it did not stay warm and could be handled in seconds.

No one remembers if he tried to drill through it. One of Boldra’s friends said that it was not any type of metal that he could identify.

Source:

  • “The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell ”, book by Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt, Avon Books publisher, 1994.

Kevin Randle reported the same in a subsequent book.

Source:

  • “A History of UFO Crashes ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Avon Books publisher, 1995.

Don Schmitt and Thomas J. Carey also reported again on this interview later, adding that the sample was a one foot square section of debris, and that Washington D.C. dispatched a special courier to retrieve the material immediately after news leaked out about its discovery in Roswell.

Source:

  • “Roswell: 52 years of unanswered questions ”, by Donald R. Schmitt and Thomas J. Carey, CUFOS.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossNovember 8, 2005First published.

Howard Scoggin

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/howardscoggin.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Howard Scoggin

(Howard SCOGGIN).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Several newspapers, such as the Amarillo Daily News for September 7, 1945, mentions Howard Scoggin as a resident of Dimmitt. It seems he died in Dimmitt on March 23, 1982 (Amarillo Globe-News , May 18, 2006). Dimmitt is in Texas but 240 km only from Roswell, New Mexico.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Howard Scoggin.

Interviews and public statements:

There is public statement by Howard Scoggin.

Investigators notes and comments:

Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt:

These researchers said that in a 1998 interview, former real estate salesman Howard Scoggin of Las Cruces, New Mexico, described a 1959 encounter with Mack Brazel. Scoggin had gone to a local restaurant for lunch with a friend who pointed out Brazel sitting alone at another table. Against his friend’s advice, Scoggin got up and approached Brazel, and asked him about the 1947 incident. Without saying a word, Brazel clenched his fist tightly, grimaced, and contorted his face, and then slowly rose out of his chair. Fearing for his personal safety, the surprised Scoggin backed away, while Brazel slowly stalked past him and out of the restaurant, leaving his food on the table. It was like watching one of those werewolf movies, when the star turns into the monster,” said Scoggin almost 40 years after the encounter.

Source:

  • In: “Mack Brazel Reconsidered ”, article by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, in the International UFO Reporter (IUR), CUFOS bulletin, Winter 1999.
  • And: “Witness to Roswell ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, New Page publishers, page 76, 2007.

Jack Barnett

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/jackbarnett.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

”Jack Barnett”

(“Jack BARNETT”, JB). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

As far as I know of [written before 2006], there is no evidence or any reliable corroboration that Jack Barnett exists. The alleged “Jack Barnett” provides some biographical information in his own alleged words, however.

[Added April 2006:] Please read the confessions by Ray Santilli: “Jack Barnett” was only a man in the street hired to performe the fake interview.

Affidavits:

None exist.

Interviews and public statements:

“Jack Barnett” never appeared publicly.

Alleged interviews and statements:

On December 19, 1996, Japanese Fuji TV broadcast a 6 minute video taped interview which presented the alleged “Jack Barnett”, an old man, answering questions that Robert Kiviat, producer of “Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction” gave Ray Santilli to have him the question answered by the cameraman. Allegedly, the videotape was done by the cameraman’s own son. Here is a transcript of the interview:

“Jack Barnett”: Ready? Okay. I have here some notes, and on these notes I have answers to precise questions. My son is here to help me with this interview. You will excuse me, this is the first time I have been in front of a camera and I am a little nervous. And I will use my glasses; and I have prepared a statement before we go on with the interview. I am the person who shot the film. I will not tell you my name but I want you to know that I am not happy that I have betrayed my country. Our United States of America is the greatest country in the world and I am proud to be an American. I do not want that to change.

Question: What made you to become an army photographer?

“Jack Barnett”: It wasn’t my decision to become a cameraman in the military. They found out that cameras were something I understand and do best. And that’s why I was given the job.

Question: What instructions did you receive from the army concerning a UFO in 1947?

“Jack Barnett”: No comment.

Question: Why did you fly to New Mexico and did you receive any special instructions from the army?

“Jack Barnett”: Yes, I remember I got a call from McDonald telling me to immediately report to General McMullen. When I got to McMullen I was told that a plane had come down just outside Soccoro, New Mexico. A flight was being laid on to go down there and I was to be on it. I was told to film the crash site and stay with the team, nothing else.

Question: Please tell us anything that you saw when you arrived at the crash site in New Mexico. Where and how did you get there?

“Jack Barnett”: Now let’s see…I flew out of Andrews with the team, mainly medical I think. We stopped at Wright Field to pick up other officers and men, changing planes and flew down to Roswell Air Base. Ah… we had a lot of equipment with us. After the flight we traveled by road and dirt track to the site.

Question: What instructions did you receive when you arrived at the site and what was your impression?

“Jack Barnett”: There were injured creatures lying around, obviously in pain, but the men at the site were too scared to get close. Oh there was a great deal of confusion until we arrived. My authority allowed me to operate as an independent as long as I didn’t interfere with the clean up. When I arrived, I set up my tent and equipment and once I had light, I started shooting. How did I feel about it? I was concerned about potential contamination, but I had no choice.

Question: Who else did you see at the location? Photographer? Scientist? Soldier?

“Jack Barnett”: Even if I could remember, I wouldn’t give you names! Yes, there were scientists, military brass, and medical experts, even Truman’s team got down there, it was the full works.

Question: How was the situation of the site?

“Jack Barnett”: We were told nothing and ordered not to discuss what we had seen. We all knew it was not a spy plane or any other type of plane we had seen before. No one knew how it crashed or where it came from.

Question: What did you take at the site?

“Jack Barnett”: I filmed the crash site, also the poor freaks, and we were told to keep back. I filmed the vehicle itself and the area around it. I felt nervous of something I could not understand or explain.

Question: How did you communicate with the spacemen?

“Jack Barnett”: The freaks kept crying out and the men were scared but they were trained and they were ordered to go in and treat it like a war situation. Their first job was to recover the objects the freaks were holding just in case they were weapons of some kind. I filmed the assault on the freaks to get these objects. It turned out they were not weapons, but control units of some kind. The freaks didn’t want to let them go but they didn’t stand a chance, we got ‘em. Once the units were secured the freaks were removed.

Question: How did you keep the film after shooting and who developed it?

“Jack Barnett”: I kept all the film with me, went back to the base and I processed it.

Question: What happened to the remains of the UFO after delivery?

“Jack Barnett”: Where did it go? Give me the question again. Now the freaks were taken by the medical team to a lab that had been set up at Fort Worth; the debris and craft were taken to Wright Field.

Question: When was the spaceman cut up after the crash?

“Jack Barnett”: The first autopsy took place about three weeks later. I filmed some at a small lab in Fort Worth.

Question: Under what instructions did you take pictures of the dissection?

“Jack Barnett”: I was never given orders on how to shoot film, my brief was the same, film everything, but stay out of the way which is what I did.

Question: Who else was there for the dissection of spacemen?

“Jack Barnett”: What do you think I am? I can’t give names.

Question: What were difficult points in shooting of dissection?

“Jack Barnett”: The protective suits made my job very difficult. Also the air feeds into the feet kept tripping me The surgeons were always getting in the way, but I expected that.

Question: How did you develop the film?

“Jack Barnett”: [not audible] …away I developed the film myself back at the base.

Question: What are problems after developing the film?

“Jack Barnett”: Most of the processing took place around August, by the time the military as we knew it, ceased to be. The Air Force and the Army were about to split and my unit was about to be disbanded for a time anyway [laughs loudly]. In fact, you could say I was in a strange position for a time of not belonging to either one service. Then eventually they found a home for us.

Question: Why could you take back the film proving the existence of spacemen home with you?

“Jack Barnett”: I took all the film because I had no one to report to. My orders were not to discuss the situation with anyone unless they brought up the subject first. The first batch had been delivered, then the department folded and I had no one to deliver to. I tried to contact McMullen, but I couldn’t get through. In the end I couldn’t leave it laying around so I took it home which is where it stayed.

Question: Why did you keep the film after 50 years?

“Jack Barnett”: I didn’t present film to an eager buyer, it didn’t happen that way. One thing lead to another and I felt that there was no reason to keep hold of it any longer. Also I needed money at the time.

Question: How did you meet Ray Santilli?

“Jack Barnett”: He was in Cleveland looking for music film. I had some footage I shot in ‘55 when I was freelancing and he was interested in buying it for a documentary. In fact I wouldn’t have met him if it hadn’t been for my son who discovered that a British company was in town looking for old film.

Question: Is there anyone that has seen the film in the past 50 years?

“Jack Barnett”: No!

Question: How did you keep the film and protect it for 50 years?

“Jack Barnett”: Now the film was kept safely hidden for about 40 years. I never got to handing it back and just didn’t want it in the house. Keeping it secret was never a problem, as it was among other film cans; most of the time I didn’t give it a thought.

Question: Was there any reaction from the US government to release such secret film of dissection, which influences the history of human being?

“Jack Barnett”: I don’t know. Thank heavens I haven’t heard from them.

Question: [not understood] Some people think that you are used for global psychological test to see how much the world can be controlled through the existence of spacemen. What do you think?

“Jack Barnett”: A test lasting 50 years! People can think what they like, all you have to do is look at the film. I can’t tell you what these freaks are or where they came from, but it happened. Frankly, I wish I had never sold the film. He kept after me until I sold him the film. I sold him the film because I needed money. I’m not proud of it. Santilli took about 25 reels. That’s it. I’m going now. No more questions. Turn it off. No more questions.

There is another alleged interview transcript, with no evidence that the interview is a real interview of an existing Jack Barnett.

Hans v. Kampen said he received a copy of a written statement from the cameraman “JB” from the leading Dutch newspaper “De Telegraaf” of Amsterdam in August 1995. He said that the original document is in Amsterdam and that it reads exactly as follows:

THE CAMERAMAN’S STORY

OPERATION: ANVIL - Now known as the Roswell Incident

EXACT TRANSCRIPTION OF TAPE RECORDED STATEMENT

I joined the forces in March of 1942 and left in 1952. The ten years I spent serving my country were some of the best years of my life.

My father was in the movie business, which meant he had good knowledge about the workings of cameras and photography. For this reason I believe I passed a medical that would not normally allow me in, due to Polio as a child.

After my enrolment and training, I was able to use my camera skills and became one of the few dedicated cameramen in the forces. I was sent to many places, and as it was war time, I fast learned the ability of filming under difficult circumstances.

I will not give more detail on my background; only to say that in the fall of 1944 I was assigned to Intelligence, reporting to the Assistant Chief of Air Staff. I was moved around depending on the assignment. During my time I filmed a great deal, including the tests at White Sands (Manhattan project/Trinity).

I remember very clearly receiving the call to go to White Sands. I had not long returned from St. Louis where I had filmed the new ramjet “Little Henry” [See note by Patrick Gross underneath]. It was June 1st when McDonnell [Original note: George C. McDonnell was the first Air Force Chief of Staff for Intelligence. He was most likely Assistant Air Chief of Staff for Intelligence in June of 1947] [Webmaster’s not: or McDonnell simply refers to James Smith McDonnell, the builder of “Little Henry”] asked me to report to General McMullen [Original note: Major General Clements M. McMullen, Deputy Commander of the Strategic Air Command in Washington] for a special assignment. I had had no experience working with General McMullen, but after talking with him for a few minutes I knew that I would never wish to be his enemy. MuMullen was straight to the point, no messing. I was ordered to a crash site just south-west of Socorro [Original note: this could be the Plains of San Agustin]. It was urgent and my brief was to film everything in sight, not to leave the debris until it had been removed and I was to have access to all areas of the site. If the commander in charge [at the site] had a problem with that, I was told to get them to call McMullen. A few minutes after my orders from McMullen, I received the same instructions from “Tooey” [Webmaster note: nickname of General Spaatz, Chief of Staff of the US Army Air Forces], saying it was the crash of a Russian spy plane. Two generals in one day, this job was important.

I flew out from Andrews with sixteen other officers and personnel, mostly medical. We arrived at Wright Patterson and collected more men and equipment. From there we flew to Roswell on a C54.

When we got to Roswell we were transported by road to the site. When we arrived the site had already been cordoned off. From the start it was plain to see this was no Russian spy plane. It was a large disc “flying saucer” on its back, with heat still radiating from the ground around it.

The commander on site handed over to the SAC medical team who were still waiting for Kenney to arrive. However, nothing had been done as everyone was just waiting for orders.

It was decided to wait until the heat subsided before moving in as fire was a significant risk. This was made all the worse by the screams of the Freak creatures that were lying by the vehicle. What in God’s name they were no one could tell, but one thing’s for sure, they were Circus Freaks, creatures with no business here. Each had hold of a box which they kept hold of in both arms close to their chests. They just lay there crying, holding the boxes.

Once my tent had been set up, I started filming immediately; first the vehicle, then the site and debris. At around 06:00, it was deemed safe to move in. Again, the Freaks were still crying and when approached they screamed even louder. They were protective of their boxes, but we managed to get one loose with a firm strike at the head of a Freak with the butt of a rifle.

The three Freaks were dragged away, and secured with rope and tape. The other one was already dead. The medical team were reluctant at first to go near these Freaks, but as some were injured, they had no choice. Once the creatures were collected, the priority was to collect all debris that could be removed easily, as there was still a risk of fire. This debris seemed to come from exterior struts which were supporting a very small disc on the underside of the craft which must have snapped off when the disc flipped over. The debris was taken to tent stations for logging, then loaded onto trucks. After three days, a full team from Washington came down and the decision was taken to move the craft. Inside it the atmosphere was very heavy. It was impossible to stay in longer than a few seconds without feeling very sick. Therefore it was decided to analyze it back at base, so it was loaded onto a flattop and taken to Wright Patterson where I joined it.

I stayed at Wright Paterson [sic, Patterson] [The air base was named Wright field at the time, not Wright Patterson] for a further three weeks working on the debris. I was then told to report to Fort Worth for the filming of an autopsy. Normally I would not have a problem with this, but it was discovered that the Freaks may be a medical threat. Therefore I was required to wear the same protective suits as the doctors. It was impossible to handle the camera properly, loading and focusing was very difficult. In fact, against orders, I removed my suit during the filming. The first two autopsies took place in July 1947.

After filming I had several hundred reels. I separated problem reels which required special attention in processing. These I would do later. The first batch was sent through to Washington, and I processed the remainder a few days later. Once the remaining reels had been processed, I contacted Washington to arrange collection of the final batch. Incredibly, they never came to collect or arrange transportation for them. I called many times and then just gave up. The footage has remained with me ever since.

In May of 1949, I was asked to film the third autopsy.

Notes by researchers:

Patrick Gross, April 2005:

McDonnell XH-20 “Little Henry” proved that helicopters could fly using ramjets. Some researchers have argued that “Little Henry” was a helicopter not a ramjet, but it was actually a ramjet helicopter pretty much of the same characteristic as “Djinn” in France. Its first tethered flight was in Saint Louis on May 5, 1947 and its first free flight was also in Saint Louis and dated August 29, 1947 or or August 20, 1947. Two prototypes were built, only one flew, it was abandoned because of excessive fuel consumption and excessive noise.

Do not view the above as evidence of the reality of a Jack Barnett or his story: all these aeronautics facts were well known.

Of course, MacDonnell was asked if any Jack Barnett had filmed “Little Henry.” They answered that McDonnell Aircraft Company’s ramjet helicopter “Little Henry” would likely have been filmed by McDonnell’s own cameramen Chester Turk and Bill Schmitt. Actually it would have been better if one asked whether a demo flight of Little Henry occurred for the military, and if the military came along with a cameraman and if he filmed the demo flight.

The producer of the “autopsy footage”, Ray Santilli, said he was looking for some unreleased footage of early Elvis Presley performances when he stumbled upon Jack Barnett, who had such early Presley films and also told him he has this “autopsy footage.”

When Jacques Pradel of the TF1 French TV channel showed the footage, they also had investigated the story a little bit. They found in an expert’s book on Presely that a Jack Barnett indeed made some Presley filming, which rights belonged to a named Bill Randle. Bill Randle confirmed to French TV journalist Nicolas Maillard, a colleague of Jacques Pradel, that he had sold the rights to Ray Santilli. The only problem, and it is quite a big problem, is that Jack Barnett died in 1967.

But ufologists Michael Heseman and Philip Mantle, and John Purdie of the british TV, and a Japanese TV channel all state that “Jack Barnett” exists, he is 86 and lives in Florida. Ray Santilli also said that Gary Shoefield of Polygram spoke with him.

Thus, the theory surfaced that the real cameraman is not named Jack Barnett, and used his name to protect himself. He said to have known Jack Barnett as a colleague he replaced during a strike at Universal studios.

Two frequent confusions are worthy of note:

The first is that because a certain Volker Spielberg was located by TF1 as an intermediate in the footage’s release, some people started to propagate the rumour that the famous Steven Spielberg was involved in its “disclosure”, or was the hoaxer.

The second is that because Philip Mantle wtote in an article for Nexus magazine that he had located four eyewitnesses who had seen footage of the same stock in the US military and intelligence, one of them being a captain John McAndrews, then some people started to propagate that James McAndrews of the USAF, one of the author of the latest USAF “case closed” report on the Roswell incident, “knows about the film.”

Here is what ufologist Stanton Friedman told in a live interview on the French-German culture channel Arte during a live interview with him transmitted from Texas in 1992:

I have met twice with Mr. Santilli in England. I was part of the Fox network show in US, I looked the footage over and over again. I have found that every time I checked on Mr. Santilli, he wasn’t telling the truth.

In the first interview, he said that Harry Truman was clearly visible in the footage. Nobody has seen President Truman. He also said, they had established that Truman was in Dallas at the time of the autopsy.

I said, “did you checked at the Truman library?” He said “yes.” Well I checked. According to the Truman library, Truman was not in Texas or in New Mexico in June trough October 1947.

When I confronted Mr. Santilli with this, the second time around, he said, there is a conjonction with this trip to Ottawa. Ottawa is the capital of Canada straight north of washington DC. Dallas is 1100 miles south west the trip to Ottawa in June was by train and was a very public trip. Truman took off the train. He met with the canadian parliament.

So, as you know, a French researcher, Nico Maillard, has located the story about Jack Barnett

When I first met with Santilli, he told me the cameraman’s name was Jack Barnett and he had filmed Elvis Presley, that’s why Santilli was talking to him and he said “I’ve got some other material” and so far. Making a long story short, the first film of Elvis was shot by Jack Barnett. He was a cameraman, with Movietone News, and then NBC, he was never in the military which is part of the story, he died in 1967. I have a copy of his death certificate so that doesn’t… It’s not true.

Mr. Santilli didn’t buy the rights of the film from Jack Barnett, he bought it from the owner of the film who was a lawyer right then, then I was told in San Marino [ufology symposium] … “The name his really Jack Barrett”… Mr. Maillard located the story on Barnett, he was in a Hollywood union for 35 years and he had been in the military, Mr. Barnett had never been in the military even though the story said he was in the military for many years.

Mr. Barnett however was not a cameraman, was out of the military in December 1945, and died in August even thought some of the boosters of the story are saying: “we are going to interview the cameraman.” So I have done everything I can, I have talked to many, many, people, I’ve been to England I can find no reason whatsoever of any kind to relate what is in that footage to Roswell crashed saucers, alien bodies.

I have two eye witnesses, the bodies, their testimonies, they both say small, big head, practically no nose, mouth, ears, big eyes, four fingers [he insists], no thumb, not as you will recognize the body in the film, is heavy not skinny little guy, there are quite clearly visible ear lobes and nose, and mouth, there are six digits even though in one frame you can see that, as if the hand had been… it’s sharped off, meaning attached on there is a wedge of space.

Now Mr. Santilli’s story has evolved. Now he says that the cameraman says whoever this mysterious cameraman is, if there his such a person still alive, that the crash took place in may 31th in New-Mexico over to Socorro New-Mexico 160 miles from Roswell.

So what we have here, I believe, I call it a froth.

Somebody is trying to pass off footage. I don’t know whether the footage is of a earthling, with a genetic defect of some kind or whether it’s a Hollywood special, there are people who make bodies, that’s their business. Eight of nine of those people when asked said it’s a phoney body. They can tell you how to make it. Whichever it is, I don’t know yet, it could be a medical school on autopsy, on file of a strange earthling.

Certainly one thing that really bother me, two thing, I worked in security for 14 years and I cannot believe any cameraman would have been allowed to carry away a whole bunch of film. Security didn’t work that way.

Second thing, as a physicist I cannot believe that people having the first opportunity to autopsy an alien body wouldn’t be doing any measurements. There is no scale, there is no measuring device. They go about it routinely. This was a unique opportunity and what are this suits for, there is no breathing apparatus seen, they keep these from seen, the identity of the supposed doctors, why is the man behind the window? He is reasonably safe from whatever is bad. Why is he wearing a facefull mask? To protect him against what? Otherwise you can’t see his face.

So I have very strong … Now I will have to say one good thing. Because of that footage that has been shown in 32 countries there has been a great deal of public discussions about UFOs that would otherwise not have occurred.

Jack Trowbridge

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/jacktrowbridge.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

JACK TROWBRIDGE

(Jack TROWBRIDGE). | |
---|---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Jack Trowbridge, born in 1916, indicates that he was assigned to the Roswell base in April 1947, (age 31) then assigned to the base Intelligence under the orders of Major Jesse Marcel, and that his rank was First Lieutenant.

Affidavits:

No affidavit was made by this witness as far as I know.

Interviews and public statements:

Video-recorded statement on TV, Sci-Fi Channel circa 2007:

The Science Fiction Channel presented a video recorded public statement by Jack Trowbridge, specifying that it was the first time that this witness agreed to speak on camera.

The video can be viewed as of August 2007 at the SciFi channel website at:

http://www.scifi.com/roswell/index.php?vid=1

Mr. Trowbridge states:

My name is Jack Trowbridge, and I was assigned to Roswell in April of 1947.

I was further assigned to Intelligence, with Jessie Marcel, who was the head of Intelligence, a Major, I was a First Lieutenant.

On this particular evening, we were having bridge at Major Marcel’s home. [He?] was there in basket, my wife was there, all the Intelligence was there, playing bridge, except Jessie.

He was out with a pick-up, gathering the junk in this debris field. Okay.

So when we came in it was fairly late I believe, and we broke up the bridge game then, to go out and see was Jessie brought in. And it was of great interest.

It was aluminum in appearance, there were fragments of aircraft-skin or whatever the thing was, and also some girders, with pictures of… hieroglyphic-like things on it. I took them to be … who knows. You know, it was interesting I could get my hand on the material. And the material had some peculiar properties. For example they looked like [??-bar] wrappings.

But you squeezed it up in your hands as hard as you could, you let go, and it returned to originally, to the original shape. Instantly!

Then the next day, Jessie brought some of this stuff into, in the Intelligence Office. And we looked at it, and played with it wild, and everybody went back to work.

Later that day, boom! Nobody knows anything, they just shut up, nothing happened et caetera.

And when you’re in the service, you do what they say.

Major Marcel was hold up to Fort Worth to show the Press what he found.

What he had to show the Press was really a weather balloon. This stuff was not a weather balloon, when he brought that. So he was forced to lie to the Press, as we say. I don’t think he’s too happy about it, but you do what you’re told. You’re in the service, you follow orders.

And they were afraid of the American public panicking with this knowledge. I don’t think that would have happened, but, hey… the word came down from up above and you do what it says.

Investigators notes and comments:

Greg Bishop:

Ufologist Greg Bishop states on his blog with the author of UFO books Nick Redfern that FATE magazine encouraged them to go meet one of the very few surviving witnesses of the Roswell incident at this year’s festival. He reports that they met Jack Trowbridge, aged 91, veteran of the Army then of the US Air Force.

He tells they asked him many impromptu questions, recorded in video.

He tells that Trowbridge was apparently at Jesse Marcel’s house Marcel playing weekly bridge with other men of the air base of Roswell when Marcel returned home in the night of July 7, 1947. Trowbridge said to have handled some “memory metal” which, when folded up, took back its initial shape. Greg Bishop indicates that for a 91 year old man, Trowbridge was remarkably alert and lively, and that they enjoyed meeting him.

Greg Bishop comments on that oddly, the bridge game had never been mentioned in accounts up to now, and that the Jesse Marcel Junior did not publicly remember the weird metal, only a lot of debris and the well-known I-beams with strange designs embossed on them.

Source:

Note: a similar report from one “Adam Gorightly” is at http://gorightly.wordpress.com/2007/08/05/roswell-that-btch-aint-dead-yet-part-1/

Jason Kellahin

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/jasonkellahin.htm

Under construction.

AFFIDAVIT:

(1) My name is Jason Kellahin

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am employed as: was a practicing attorney and I am retired

(4) I am a native of Roswell, New Mexico, where, at the age of 12, I started working for the Roswell Morning Dispatch, sweeping out the back shop after school. Shortly before World War II, I was named editor of the paper. After the war, I became an Associated Press (AP) reporter, later going to law school and entering into practice in 1951. In July 1947 I was a reporter in the AP’s Albuquerque bureau.

(5) On July 8, 1947, someone in Roswell called our bureau with the news that the Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) had announced the Army had “captured” a flying saucer on a ranch in Lincoln County. Although I may have taken the call, I do not remember doing so. The story was put on the wire, and AP headquarters in New York ordered our bureau chief to send someone to get more information. He sent me and, because he thought there might be a photo opportunity, our wire technician and photographer, R. (Robin) D. Adair. We took our portable wirephoto machine with us.

(6) Our first stop was the Foster ranch, where the discovery had been made. At the ranch house, we found William “Mac” Brazel, his wife, and his small son. It was Brazel who made the find in a pasture some distance from the house. He was not happy about the attention he was getting and the people tripping around his place. He said if he ever found anything again, he would not tell anyone unless it was a bomb.

(7) Brazel took Adair and me to the pasture where he made his discovery. When we arrived, there were three or four uniformed Army officers searching some higher ground about a quarter to a half mile away. Apparently, they had been there for some time.

(8) There was quite a lot of debris on the site — pieces of silver colored fabric, perhaps aluminized cloth. Some of the pieces had sticks attached to them. I though they might be the remains of a high-altitude balloon package, but I did not see anything, pieces of rubber or the like, that looked like it could have been part of the balloon itself. The way the material was distributed, it looked as though whatever it was from came apart as it moved along through the air.

(9) After looking at the material, I walked over to the military men. They said they were from RAAF and were just looking around to see what they could find. They said they were going back to Roswell and would talk with me further there. They had a very casual attitude and did not seem at all disturbed that the press was there. They made no attempt to run us off.

(10) Adair and I, Brazel, and the Army men then drove down to Roswell, traveling separately. That afternoon, or early evening, we met at the offices of the Roswell Daily Record, the city’s afternoon newspaper. The military men waited on the sidewalk out front, while I and a Record reporter named Skeritt interviewed Brazel and Adair took his picture. (Adair also took photos of Brazel and the debris at the ranch, but these were never used.) Walter E. Whitmore, owner of KGFL, one of Roswell’s two radio stations, was also present during the interview. Whitmore did his best to maneuver Brazel away from the rest of the press.

(11) After interviewing Brazel, I spoke with the military people outside then went over to see Sheriff George Wilcox, whom I knew well. Wilcox said the military indicated to him it would be best if he did not say anything. I then phoned in my story to the AP office in Albuquerque. The next morning, Adair transmitted his photos on the portable wirephoto equipment.

(12) I have not been paid or given or promised anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: Jason Kellahin
Date: Sept. 20, 1993

Signature witnessed by:
Michele Guadagmole
Sept. 20, 1993

Under construction.

Under construction.

Jesse Marcel

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/jessemarcel.htm

Pratt:Tell me something about your background.
Marcel:(I) entered the U.S. Army Air Force in April 1942 was an aide to General Hap Arnold. Entered as second lieutenant He (Arnold?) decided 1 should go to intelligence school (for which there were) lengthy and strenuous exams. (I Went to) Air Intelligence School, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania under CO (commanding officer) Colonel Egmont Koenig. Was in school - first combat intelligence and (then) kept on in photo intelligence, since I had done a lot of cartographic work and interpreting aerial photographs. I used both combat intel and photo intel in my work. He (Koenig) elected to retain me there as an instructor, one year, three months. I applied for overseas duty, combat. Was sent to South pacific, New Guinea, assigned as squadron intelligence officer. I had flying experience before going in the service - started flying in 1928 - so being in (the) air was not foreign to me. Did lot of flying, combat flying, B24s. From squadron, was elevated to group intelligence officer until I was sent back to the States just before the A-Bomb was dropped on Japan. Sent me back to take radar navigation course at Langley Field. Was there when bomb was dropped and the war ended… was reassigned to Eighth Air Force.
Pratt:Headquarters was at Colorado Springs -
Marcel:Reported for duty there but the following day transferred to Roswell, New Mexico, which became Walker Air Force Base. Immediately after the end of war, 509th Bomb Wing. I was intelligence officer for the bomb wing.
Pratt:What was your rank?
Marcel:Major. Stayed there until October 1947. The 509th was the only A-Bomb group in world. The first project I was sent on was an atom test on Bikini in 1948. Came back to Roswell until latter part of 1947, when I was sent to Washington. Was in service for eight and a half years and had been in the Louisiana National Guard and the Texas Guard also. It became very difficult for me to get out of service, but I felt I had a duty to my family. I was assigned to the Special Weapons Program, collecting air samples throughout the world and (getting them) analyzed. In fact, when we finally detected there had been a nuclear explosion, had to write a report on it. In fact, I wrote the very report that President Truman read on the air declaring that Russia had exploded an atomic device. This was after I left the 509th. I got out in 1950, latter part of 1950.
Pratt:What was your rank then?
Marcel:After this flying saucer thing came about in 1947, I was given a promotion after I got back to Washington and I didn’t even know it. I was promoted to lieutenant colonel in December 1947.
Pratt:When did you learn you had been promoted?
Marcel:After I got out of the service… They kept me so busy I never even looked at my personal files. I was released from active duty as a lieutenant colonel.
Pratt:Was the flying you did before the war part of your work.
Marcel:Private pilot.
Pratt:What work did you do before the war?
Marcel:I was a cartographer, mapmaker. Worked for U.S. Engineers and Shell Oil Company. I was working for Shell Oil Company as a photographer when the war began. All my map making for the Engineers and Shell Oil Company was derived from aerial photographs. No degree then. Got one later, six different schools. I speak French and English and understand several others but don’t speak them. After war, I worked in electronics, repairing radios and TVs, since I had been a ham radio operator all these years. Retired now, (with my wife). My son is a doctor in Helena, Montana. He’s also a seismologist.
Pratt:When did you find the debris in New Mexico?
Marcel:I don’t remember the exact date. It was in July 1947. How it all started, I was in my office. I went to the officers’ club for lunch and was sitting having lunch when I got a call from the sheriff from Roswell and he wanted to talk to me. He said “There’s a man here, a rancher who came to town to sell his woo, he’d just sheared his sheep and he told me something that’s weird And you ought to know about this. And I said, “Well I’m all ears.” He said, “This man’s name is Brazel. He said he found something on his ranch that crashed either the day before or a few days before, and he doesn’t know what it is. He (the sheriff) said, “This might be well worth your while to investigate this since I know you’re the intelligence officer of the base. So I said “Well fine.” So I said “Where can I meet him?” He said “Well he’s going to leave here about three-thirty or four o’clock, but he’s in my office now, if you want to come and talk to him now. He’ll be here waiting for you” And he was, and he told me about it. Well, he got me interested so I went back - I said (to Brazel), “You wait here.” I said, “I have to go back to the base.” So I talked to my CO (commanding officer of the 509th Bomb Group Colonel William H. Blanchard) about that (what was his advice), He said. “My advice is you better get in that car.” He said, “How much of that stuff is there out there?” I said, “Well the way the man talks, quite a bit.” He said, “Well you have three CIC agents working for you.”
Pratt:CIC?
Marcel:That’s Counter Intelligence (Corps) agents - See, my main job there was to clear the personnel through the Atomic Energy Commission to be stationed at that base, military personnel. I had five officers and about twenty enlisted typists working for me, with an office going like mint all the time. With (plus) those three CIC agents. They would do the investigating. Whenever we had to investigate somebody, I gave that job to them and they’d turn in their reports in to my office and we’d write the reports. Well to come back to this. So I talked to Colonel Blanchard and he said take whatever you need with you but go. So I got one of my agents named Cavitt (Captain Sheridan W. Cavitt), who, incidentally, we’ve never been able to find since I don’t know his first name. I didn’t keep any paperwork on CIC agents They didn’t belong to me. So - but I had three of them. So I took him (Cavitt). He drove a jeep carryall. I drove my staff car, and we took off cross-country behind this pickup truck this rancher (Brazel) had. He didn’t follow any roads going out? This was an eighty square mile ranch, so he told me. It was big. So we got to his place at dusk. It was too late to do anything, so we spent the night there in that little shack of his. And the following morning we got up and took off. He took us to that place, and we started picking up fragments, which was foreign to me. I’d never seen anything like that. I didn’t know what we were picking up. I still don’t know. As of this day, I still don’t know what it was. And I brought as much of it back to the base as I could and - Well, some ingenious young GI thought he’d try to put a few pieces together and see if he could match something. I don’t think he ever matched two pieces. It was so fragmented It was strewn over a wide area, I guess maybe three-quarters of a mile long and a few hundred feet wide. So we loaded up and we came back to the base. In the meantime we had an eager-beaver public relations officer, he found out about it, he calls AP (Associated Press) about it. Then that’s when it really hit the fan. I don’t mind using that expression. I probably got telephone calls from everywhere. News reporters were trying to come in to talk to me, but I had nothing for them I couldn’t tell them anything. I didn’t have anything to talk about. They wanted to see the stuff, which I couldn’t show them. So my CO (Blanchard), early the next morning sent me to Carswell (Air Force Base, which in July 1947 was still Fort Worth Army Air Field) to stop over and talk to (Brigadier) General (Roger M.) Ramey (commander of the Eighth Air Force. (I took) all the stuff in a B-29. My CO told me to go ahead and fly it to Wright-Patterson air field in Ohio, but when I got to Carswell, General Ramey wasn’t there, but they had a lot of news reporters and a slew of microphones that wanted to talk to me, but I couldn’t say anything. I couldn’t say anything until I talked to the general. I had to go under his orders. And he (General Ramey) said (Marcel chuckles - Pratt), “Well just don’t say anything. So I said “General, Colonel Blanchard told me to get this stuff to Wright-Patterson.” And he said, “You leave it right here. We’ll take care of it from here.” And that was the end of it - that was the end of my part in it. I still don’t know what I picked up.
Pratt:Did they keep the B-29?
Marcel:No, no. It (the material) was transferred to a transport. The general told me, “You go back to Roswell You’re need more there.” He said, “You’ve got a big job there, what you’re doing is important. This, there’ll be nothing -“
Pratt:What was the rancher’ name?
Marcel:Brazel, don’t know his first name.
Pratt:Where is the ranch in relation to Roswell?
Marcel:North of the test sites and I would say sixty miles northwest of Roswell.
Pratt:What was the sheriff’s name?
Marcel:I don’t recall it right now (It was George Wilcox). He was sheriff of the county Roswell was in (Chaves).
Pratt:What kind of a ranch was it?
Marcel:Cattle and sheep.
Pratt:The next morning he took you out to this place?
Marcel:Yes. In fact he saddled two horses. I never rode a horse in my life, and I said “You two ride the horses.” Cavitt was an odd - He was from west Texas. He was at home on a horse. So they took off. We went up there, and we loaded all this stuff in the carryall and we got through kind of late. But I wasn’t satisfied. I went back I told Cavitt, “You drive this vehicle back to the base, and I’ll go back out there and pick up as much as I can put in the car.”
Pratt:What was the terrain like?
Marcel:Very flat. It’s all very arid. You had tumbleweeds. It was adequate for a sheep ranch for grazing. I didn’t pay too much attention to that because my interest went another way.
Pratt:When you got out there, what did you actually see, bits of metal or what?
Marcel:I saw - Well we found some metal, small bits of metal, but mostly we found some material that’s hard to describe. I’d never seen anything like that, and I still don’t know what it was. We picked it up anyway. One thing, one thing -
Pratt:It was something manufactured?
Marcel:Oh, it definitely was. But one thing I do remember, I recall that very distinctly. I wanted to set some of this stuff burn, but all I had - I had a cigarette lighter, since I’m a heavy smoker anyway. I lit the cigarette lighter to some of this stuff, and it didn’t burn.
Pratt:Were there any markings?
Marcel:Yes, there were. Something indecipherable. I’ve never seen anything like that myself. Oh, I call them hieroglyphics myself. I don’t know whether they were ever deciphered or not.
Pratt:There were some markings, though?
Marcel:Oh. Yes - little members, small members, solid members that could not bend or break, but it didn’t look like metal. It looked more like wood.
Pratt:How big?
Marcel:They varied in size. They were, as I can recall, perhaps three-eighths of an inch by one-quarter of an inch thick and just about all sizes. None of them were very long.
Pratt:How large was the biggest?
Marcel:I would say about three feet (long).
Pratt:How heavy?
Marcel:Weightless. You couldn’t even tell you had it in your hands - just like you handle balsa wood.
Pratt:The piece three or four feet long - was it wide or what?
Marcel:Oh no. It was a solid member, rectangular members, just like you get a square stick (here Marcel drew a sketch - Pratt). Varied lengths, and along the length of some of those they had little markings, a two-color markings as I recall - like Chinese writing to me. Nothing you could make any sense out of.
Pratt:Was everything in this shape, long and slender?
Marcel:All the solid members were that way. There was other stuff there that looked very much like parchment that, again, didn’t burn. Obviously - I surmise - I’m not -I was acquainted with just about every method there of weather observation devices used by the military, and I couldn’t recognize any of that as being weather observation devices.
Pratt:You’ve been flying since 1928, twenty years when this happened. Was this part of any aircraft that you recognize?
Marcel:No, it could not have been part of an aircraft.
Pratt:Nor part of a weather balloon or experimental balloon?
Marcel:I couldn’t see that it could be, no. For one thing if it had been a balloon, like the parts that we picked up, it would not have been porous. It was porous.
Pratt:Any jagged or broken ends or the like?
Marcel:No. As far as I can recall, they were clean. See, I had so little time to spend on this - I had other duties to perform. I brought the stuff over here. my CO saw it, my staff saw it and then the following day my CO told me to take it to Wright-Patterson.
Pratt:Why there?
Marcel:For analysis. They wanted to see what it was.
Pratt:What was the agency at Wright-Pat?
Marcel:Air Force analysis laboratories. I think.
Pratt:How many pieces were there?
Marcel:It might have been hundreds. I don’t recall. It’s been so long since I handled all this stuff. I’d just about dismissed the whole thing from my mind.
Pratt:When you went out there that morning, you could see this stuff scattered for quite a ways in the distance?
Marcel:Lord, yes, about as far as you could see - three-quarters of a mile long and two hundred to three hundred feet wide. I tell you what I surmised. One thing I did notice - nothing actually hit the ground bounced on the ground. It was something that must have exploded above ground and fell. And I learned later that farther west towards Carrizozo, they found something like that, too. That I don’t know anything about. It was the same period of time, sixty to eighty miles west of there.
Pratt:Ranchers found something similar out there?
Marcel:I think it was discovered by some surveyor out there. (Marcel is probably referring to the Barney Barnett story, about which previous interviewers told him.)
Pratt:Did you pick up all the parts?
Marcel:I did not cover the entire area. We picked up as much as we could carry and some was left there.
Pratt:Was it grouped or bunched together, or was it scattered?
Marcel:Scattered all over - just like you’d explode something above the ground and just fall to the ground. One thing I was impressed with was that it was obvious you could just about determine which direction it came from and which direction it was heading. It was traveling from northeast to southwest. It was in that pattern. You could tell where it started and where it ended by how it thinned out. Although I did not cover the entire area this stuff was in, I could tell that it was thicker where we first started looking, and it was thinning out as we went southwest.
Pratt:What was the length of the shortest pieces?
Marcel:Four or five inches. It was as if something of some greater area that had been together.
Pratt:Were there clean breaks or obvious breaks?
Marcel:I don’t recall that. Nothing seemed torn. It’s pretty difficult to assimilate in your own mind just what it was because I wasn’t with it that long. It’s like you handle a hot potato - you want to get rid of it.
Pratt:Had the rancher been in that area recently before finding this?
Marcel:I faintly remember he told me he had heard an explosion at night and the following day he went out there in that direction and he saw that stuff.
Pratt:Of course, we didn’t have artificial satellites in 1947-
Marcel:No.
Pratt:We had missiles, though, didn’t we?
Marcel:Oh, yes.
Pratt:This obviously was no rocket?
Marcel:Oh, no. Unh, unh. I’ve seen rockets. I’ve seen rockets sent up at the White Sands testing grounds. It definitely was not part of an aircraft, nor a missile or rocket.
Pratt:Strange, isn’t it?
Marcel:Yes, it is. It’s bewildering. The one thing that I kept wondering - why no publicity was given about that by the Air Force. They probably got something they wanted to sit on. That’s my opinion. There had been a lot of reports about flying saucers in that area. In fact, I’m not sure - I wouldn’t swear to this, but one night about eleven-thirty - I lived in town - the provost marshal called me and said, “You better come out here in a hurry.” He wouldn’t elaborate on the telephone what it was. So I got in my car and put my foot on the accelerator and going as fast as I could go, and it was a straight road. Something caught my attention. It was a formation of lights moving from north to south. But it was so - I mean we had nothing that traveled that fast anyway. I knew that. We had no aircraft that traveled at that speed, because it was visible only maybe three or four seconds from overhead to the horizon. They were bright lights flying a perfect vee formation And I hesitated to open my mouth about that because I knew nobody would believe me, but two or three days later some GI said “I saw something in the skies the other night.” And he described exactly what I’d seen.
Pratt:Was this before the debris incident?
Marcel:Just slightly before. Anyway, I figure there’s some credence to this UFO business. I believe in it. Even my son Jesse (Dr. Jesse A. Marcel), one afternoon - he has two little boys and a girl and the boys were with him - he was going into town and - They live on a little crooked road up the side of a mountain and one of the boys said “Dad look at that!” My son stopped the car and looked up there and he saw 8 shiny circular object that all of a sudden took off like nobody’s business.
Pratt:Tell me about Cavitt’s jeep carryall.
Marcel:It’s slightly larger than a pickup truck, with a covered body. And we loaded the back end of that up with material and then I went back and loaded my car up.
Pratt:And there was a lot left?
Marcel:Oh, lord, yes. Yes we picked up a very minor portion of it.
Pratt:You put all this on the B-29 and were going to take all the material to Wright -
Marcel:All we had.
Pratt:And you never heard back anything more from General Ramey?
Marcel:Nothing at all.
Pratt:- or Wright Field?
Marcel:Nothing at all.
Pratt:Do you know if Blanchard did?
Marcel:That I wouldn’t know. I rather doubt that he did because if he had heard something about it would have told me. And he never mentioned anything.
Pratt:How long did you stay at Roswell after that?
Marcel:Until the latter part of 1947.
Pratt:Where did you go then?
Marcel:Transferred to Washington, D.C. I was given an office with a title about that long (held hands apart - Pratt). I was in the Selective service building next to the State House on E Street.
Pratt:What do you think this thing was?
Marcel:Well, as far as I know, or can surmise, it - I was pretty well acquainted with most of the things that were in the air at the time, not only from my own military aircraft but also in a lot of foreign countries, and I still believe it was nothing that came from earth. It came to earth but not from earth. The biggest mistake I ever made - of course I couldn’t - was not to keep a piece of it. But in all fairness to my work and the service, I couldn’t.
Pratt:You had three thousand hours as a pilot -
Marcel:Right and eight thousand hours flying time.
Pratt:What medals were you awarded?
Marcel:I have five air medals because I shot down five enemy aircraft in combat.
Pratt:From a B-24?
Marcel:Yes, from the waist gun of a B-24 in the South Pacific. And I was given a bronze star for the work I did re-teaching personnel that came to fly combat, that were greenhorns that came out of the States. I had charge of that. I was given a bronze star for that. I’ve got commendations - even got one from the U.S. Navy - Air Force intelligence office, for the A-Bomb tests in South Pacific, Kwajalein.
Pratt:You were all handpicked officers.
Marcel:Right. I’ve been around the world five times, been in sixty-eight countries. I have a degree in nuclear physics, bachelor’s, at - completed work at George Washington University in Washington, D. C.). Attended LSU (Louisiana State University), Houston, University of Wisconsin, New York University Ohio State, (unintelligible - Pratt), and GW.
Pratt:Were you ever told not to talk about this?
Marcel:You don’t have to be told you just know. I couldn’t jeopardize my part of the service and be criticized for what I said.
Pratt:The base public relations man called the Associated Press, and so on. Was the idea that a flying saucer had crashed?
Marcel:I don’t know. I didn’t talk to him or read what he said. I’ve heard contradicting reports on this. I had heard this PR man had called the press without consulting the CO, and later I heard the CO had authorized him to do that. But I haven’t verified that.
Pratt:How many combat missions did you go on?
Marcel:I had a total of 468 hours of combat time, was intelligence officer for bomb wing, flew as a pilot, waist gunner and bombardier at different times. I got shot down one time, my third mission out of Port Moresby.
Pratt:Did everyone survive?
Marcel:All but one crashed into a mountain I bailed out just before we made landfall. I guess a quarter of a mile inland our engines gave out on our B-24. I bailed out at eight thousand feet and I fell six thousand feet before I got my ‘chute open. I was lucky to get it open - malfunction. Good thing I had a chest pack. My backpack wouldn’t work, and I went to work on my chest pack. I wasn’t taking any chances, and it paid off.

Jesse Marcel Jr

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/jessemarceljr.htm

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is Jesse A. Marcel, M.D. (2) My address is: [Confidential] (3) I am a physician, and I have served in the National Guard since 1978; I am a certified crash investigator and helicopter pilot. (4) In July 1947, I was eleven years old and lived in Roswell, New Mexico, where my father, Major Jesse Marcel, was stationed at the Roswell Army Air Field, serving as the base intelligence officer. (5) One night, I was awakened by my father in the middle of the night. He was very excited about some debris he had picked up in the desert. The material filled up his 1942 Buick. He brought some of the material into the house, and we spread it out on the kitchen floor. (6) There were three categories of debris: a thick, foil-like metallic gray substance; a brittle, brownish-black plastic-like material, like Bakelite; and there were fragments of what appeared to be I-beams. (7) On the inner surface of the I-beam, there appeared to be a type of writing. The writing was a purple-violet hue, and it had an embossed appearance. The figures were composed of curved, geometric shapes. It had no resemblance to Russian, Japanese or any other foreign language. It resembled hieroglyphics, but it had no animal-like characters. (8) My father said the debris was recovered from a crash site northwest of Roswell. He felt it was very unusual and may have mentioned the words “flying saucer” in connection with the material. He was certain it was not from a weather balloon. (9) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: Jesse A. Marcel
[Signed]
Date: 6 Mar 91 Signature witnessed by:
[Signed]
Trudy Anders LPN

Joe C. Briley

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/joebriley.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Joe Briley

(Joe BRILEY, Joe C. BRILEY, Joseph BRILEY, Joseph C. BRILEY, Joe Charles BRILEY, Joseph Charles BRILEY). |
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Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Here is biography information I found on Joseph C. Briley from non-ufological sources:

Joe Charles Briley

Obituary

Joe Charles Briley, 91, died peacefully in his home in Kerrville, on Dec. 8, 2008, attended by his devoted wife of 69 years, Nona Jean (Pugh). He was born in Mineral Wells, TX, on March 8, 1916, in a hotel owned and run by his late parents, Charles and Myrtle Edwards Dowell. His early experiences with farm work and oil field “roughneck” labor prompted him to dream of a loftier career — he wanted to fly planes. His talents on the football field took him through high school, where, as a senior at Ranger, TX, High School he had an opportunity to play in the first Sun Bowl football game in El Paso, and subsequently led to football scholarships to Texarkana Junior College and then to the University of Arkansas, where he was to meet the love of his life, Nona Jean. In 1939, a recruiter for the newly formed United States Army Air Corp gave him the chance to fulfill his life’s dream. Just short of graduation from the university, Joe jumped at the chance to enter flight training school, and he and his new bride embarked on a 22-year adventure that sent him to assignments throughout the United States and around the world. He was so successful as a new pilot, he was immediately assigned as a flying instructor at Kelly Field in San Antonio, a position that became even more critical with the outbreak of World War II. In September 1943, he was given command of one of the first B-29 squadrons formed and was assigned to combat action with the 20th Bomber Command operating from bases in China, Burma, and India. Returning from this mission, he was made Director of Training for the B-29 Flight Engineer School in Hondo, TX, until the end of the war. He then was assigned to the 509th Bomb Wing at Roswell, NM, participating in the Bikini bomb tests. He served in England from 1950 to 1953 with the 3rd Air Force and the SAC 7th Division, which allowed him and his family to witness the celebrations of the coronation of the young Queen Elizabeth and to visit many of the European countries. From there he became Chief of the Bomber Test Organization of the Air Proving Ground Command, Eglin Air Force Base, FL, which was responsible for conducting Suitability Tests on various Strategic and Tactical Bomber Weapons Systems and all transport and tanker aircraft purchased by the Air Force. This work culminated each year in a “Fire Power Demonstration,” attended by dignitaries from all over the country. In 1958 he was assigned Director of Operations of the 314th Air Division in Osan, Korea, responsible for monitoring the USAF responsibilities to the Republic of Korea Air Force and maintaining the relationship between the American and United Nations ground forces. In 1959 he assumed command of Johnson Air Base, Japan, and in 1960 he was named commander of Kadena Air Force Base in Okinawa. During his long military career, he was awarded numerous medals and honors, including the Air Medal and Commendation Medal. He retired from active duty in 1961, and returned to Texas, exploring new endeavors in the lumber industry, real estate and manufactured housing sales, until finally winding down to several years of “snowbirding,” enjoying sunny Mexico winters and cool Oregon, Utah, and Canadian summers. He and Jean finally settled down in Kerrville in 1988. In addition to his parents, Joe was preceded in death by his brothers and their wives, Harold and Ruby Briley and Les and Irene Swafford, and one sister, Gertrude Swafford Jones, all of Odessa. Together with his wife, Jean, he is mourned by two sons and their wives, Don and Wanda Briley of Lufkin, and Bill and Kathy Briley of Waller, and two daughters, Barbara Trapp of Crosby, and Elizabeth Warner of Kerrville. He also leaves behind grandchildren and spouses, Davin and Carman Myers and Eric and Dasha Myers of Crosby; David Myers of Belton; Clint and Michelle Briley of Lufkin; Shea and Carlton Fisher of Jacksonville; Chris Kirk and Mikaela Mercer of Kerrville; Katera and Richard Rutledge and Brian Briley of California; Alisha and Michael Hyatt and Kris Briley of Waller, as well as 14 great-grandchildren, special niece, Nola Whirlow, and numerous other nieces and nephews. Memorial services will be held Friday, December 12, 2008, 10 a.m. at Grimes Funeral Chapels officiated by Rev. Frankie Enloe and with military honors provided by Lackland Air Force Honor Guard. Interment will be at Ft. Sam Houston National Cemetery in San Antonio at a later date. The family invites you to send condolences at www.grimesfuneralchapels.com by selecting the “Send Condolences” link. Funeral arrangements are entrusted to Grimes Funeral Chapels of Kerrville.

Source:

  • Obituary published in the newspaper The Lufkin Daily News , December 11, 2008.

Affidavits:

There was no affidavit by Joe Briley.

Interviews and public statements:

There is apparently no public statement by Lt. Col. Joe Briley about the Roswell incident.

Investigators notes and comments:

Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt:

The authors that in July 1947, Joe Briley was a lieutenant colonel and assigned as the operations officer at the Roswell base. When asked about the Japanese balloon bombs [a.k.a. the “Fugo” balloons], he said “I never heard it mentioned. There were no rumors about it. It certainly wasn’t talked about at the base, and if it had ever been suggested I would have heard about.”

The authors say that Lieutenant-Colonel Joe C. Briley confirmed that colonel Blanchard’s leave was just a “blind”, when he was actually at the crash site.

The authors indicate this comes from interviews conducted by phone in October 1989, April 1990 and December 1990.

Source:

  • “The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell ”, book by Kevin D. Randle with Donald R. Schmitt, M. Evans publishers, pages 117,182,192, 1994.

Kevin Randle:

First, we have the testimony of Lt. Col. Joseph Briley. (According to the unit history, Briley became the Operations Officer in the middle of July. Prior to that he had been a squadron commander.) Briley asserts Blanchard had gone to the crash site. Available information indicates that this visit was made on July 8 and that Blanchard’s leave began on July 8. The leave was actually a cover for Blanchard’s activities revolving around the crash.

Source:

  • “When a Leave is not a Leave: Col. Blanchard and the Roswell Timeline ”, article by Kevin D. Randle, in International UFO Reporter (IUR), bulletin by the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, Volume 19, Number 4, July / August 1994.

[…] Colonel Joe Briley, who, in July 1947, was Blanchard’s operations officer, said that Blanchard couldn’t have cared less about a balloon, the answer most often suggested as the culprit in scattering the debris. While this is certainly not the most positive of statements, it does call into question the repeated Air Force excuse of a weather balloon.

[…]

Source:

Karl Pflock

This researcher says that Randle and Schmitt reported that then Lt. Col. Joe Briley told them he was “sure” Blanchard went to the crash site, although Briley denied “he [Who? Briley? Blanchard?] had any firsthand knowledge of the crash”, having at the time been in command of the 509th Bomb Squadron rather than serving in group headquarters as he did later in the year.

Source:

  • “Roswell - Inconvenient Facts and the Will to Believe ”, book by Karl T. Pflock, Prometheus publisher, page 100, 2001.

The NICAP website:

Lt. Col. Joe Briley confirmed that Col. Blanchard’s “leave” was just a “blind”, when in actuality he was at the impact site.

Source:

US Air Force 1995 report - James McAndrews:

The following text by 1st Lt. James McAndrew, USAF, comes from a summary of the Air Force’s findings on Project Mogul, the top secret project that was proposed by some researchers as the answer to the Roswell mystery. In appeared in the 1995 Air Force publication “The Roswell Report: Fact Versus Fiction in the New Mexico Desert.”

The full report is here as a PDF file on www.dod.mil.

THE REAL COVER STORY

On July 10, 1947, a newspaper article appeared in the Alamogordo Daily News displaying for the press the devices, neoprene balloons, and corner reflectors which had been misidentified as the “flying disc” two days earlier at Roswell AAF (Atch 11). The photographs and accompanying article quoted Maj Wilbur D. Pritchard, a Watson Laboratory Project Officer (not assigned to MOGUL) stationed at Alamogordo AAF. This article appeared to have been an attempt to deflect attention from the Top Secret MOGUL project by publicly displaying a portion of the equipment and offering misleading information. If there was a “cover story” involved in this incident, it is this article, not the actions or statements of Ramey.

The article in the Alamogordo Daily News stated that the balloons and radar targets had been used for the last fifteen months for the training of long-range radar personnel and the gathering of meteorological data. The article lists four officers — Maj W.D. Pritchard, Lieut S.W. Seigel, Capt L.H. Dyvad, and Maj C.W. Mangum — as being involved with the balloon project, which was false. Moore and Trakowski could not recall any of the officers in the photograph, with the exception of Dyvad, whom Moore identified as a pilot who coordinated radar activities. (43) Additionally, some of the details discussed (balloon sighting in Colorado, tracking by B-17s, recovery of equipment, launching balloons at 54 AM, and balloon altitudes of 30,000-40,000 feet) relate directly to the NYU balloon project, indicating that the four officers had detailed knowledge of MOGUL. (44) Moore’s unorthodox technique of employing several balloons and several radar targets was shown in one of the photographs. Other techniques unique to Moore, […]

[…]

CONCLUSION

Many of the claims surrounding the events of July 1947 could be neither proved nor disproved. Attempts were not made to investigate every allegation, but rather to start with what was known and work toward the unknown. To complicate the situation, events described here took place nearly 50 years ago and were highly classified. This Top Secret project appeared to have utilized the concept of compartmentalization very well. Interviews with individuals and review of documents of organizations revealed that the ultimate objective of the work, or even the name of the project, in many instances was not known. It was unlikely, therefore, that personnel from Roswell AAF, even though they possessed the appropriate clearances, would have known about project MOGUL. In fact, when the NYU/AMC group returned to Alamogordo in September, their first trip since the “incident” occurred, one of the first activities of the project scientists, Peoples and Crary, who were accompanied by Major Pritchard and Captain Dyvad, was to brief the commanding officer of Alamogordo AAF and the 509th Bomb Group Operations Officer, Lt Col Joseph Briley, on MOGUL. (48)

48. Combined Hist, 50th Bomb Grp and Roswell AAF, Sep 1-30, 1947, p. 79; Untranscribed journal of Albert P. Crary, p. 64.

Source:

  • “Project Mogul - Synopsis of Balloon Research Findings ”, by 1st Lt James McAndrew, USAF, in “The Roswell Report: Fact Versus Fiction in the New Mexico Desert”, US Air Force, 1995.

Note: This shows that the idea that the Mogul people informed Joe Briley of the Mogul Project in September was published by the US Air Force in 1994.

However, the same source includes the transcript of a June 8, 1994, interview with Professor Charles B. Moore, who was involved in Project Mogul. The USAF interviewer recalls that a document indicates a visit of Roswell Army Air Base by “Mogul” people, and asks Moore - twice - if he knows the reason of this visit:

Q: I saw that you had a copy of the 509th Bomb Group history. In the 509 the Bomb Group history from September I saw a meeting where Dr. Peoples met with LTC Joe Briley, 830th the Bomb Squadron Commander, 509th, Air Group Roswell. Do you know why Dr. Peoples would meet with the squadron commander of a B-29 outfit?

A: Only if he wanted to get in to put a receiver on the base there. That would be my guess. We had a big operation. We went back to Alamagordo in September. We had our first 20 foot diameter General Mills balloons. We had a very successful set of balloon launches in Alamagordo in September of ‘47. My only guess is trying to have a down-wind receiving station.

[…]

Q: What about then Colonel Blanchard and General Ramey? Do you think they may have had any knowledge of what your ultimate purpose was?

A: I think not. I want to say something about Colonel J.D. Ryan. He was Chief of Staff of the Air Force later, but “Dr. Peoples, Murray Hackman, and First Lieutenant Thompson from Air Material Command, were out at the field to inspect Air Material Command installations and to confer with LTC Briley.”

My note: “Skeptics” have suspected, suggested or even claimed that the visit of White Sands “Mogul” people to Roswell Air Force Base was to inform the base people about the Mogul project to prevent that their balloons would cause incident any other incident (See for example Guttierez and Fernandez, below.) - To many skeptics, the “Roswell incident” being caused by debris of Mogul project balloons.

This Air Force interview shows that it is unlikely that it is a proven fact that the purpose of this visit was to inform Roswell Air Force base about Mogul.

It appears that in this visit, Lieutenant Colonel Briley was met by the Mogul people. No source about Lt. Col. Briley indicates he ever heard of the Mogul project or ever was informed that the “crash” was called by balloons. One may expect that if the Mogul people informed him about Mogul in September 1947, he might have told about it later to the “pro-Roswell” investigators.

I also note, just as with many military people they could have interviewed, the US Air Force investigators of 1994 could have interviewed Lt. Col. Briley, but did not do it.

Gregory Guttierez:

Gregory Guttierez said that on July 11, 1990, Fred Whiting of the Fund for UFO Research had an interview with Walter Haut recorded in video, where it was said:

Whiting: Has Colonel Blanchard spoken of this incident after General Ramey’s statement? For example, in a staff meeting?

Haut: During the staff meeting that followed, about a week later (I think they took place was every Monday), he made a comment about the agenda. It seems to me that after that, he said something like, “We really made a mistake with this story last week. In fact,” he said, “the team that sent these balloons was on our grounds. They came from White Sands and measured the winds in the upper atmosphere, from east to west.”

Of course, this revelation could not have taken place the week after the incident, because at that time Blanchard was on leave. However, in the “Calendar of Visitors and Executives” from 3 to 15 September 1947 (in “Joint History of the 509th Bomb Group and the Roswell Base, 1 to 30 September 1947”), there is this mention at the date of September 10: “Mr. Peoples, Mr. Hackman, and Lieutenant Thompson, of the Air Materiel Command, arrived at the base to inspect the facilities of this command and to discuss with Lieutenant-Colonel Briley.”

James Peoples was the scientific leader of the Mogul project. Obviously, his visit to Roswell was intended to ensure that the activities of the Mogul / University of New York project, which had just been resumed in Alamogordo, would not generate further misunderstandings. Lieutenant-Colonel Joseph Briley, bomber squadron commander in July 1947, was the operational officer of the 509th in September 1947. Kevin Randle and Donald Schmitt introduced him as one of the witnesses whose statements support the assumption of the flying saucer crash.

Source:

Gilles Fernandez:

… In one of the few available periodicals, the Calendar of Visitors and Executives (Annex 4) of the Roswell base from 3 to 15 September 1947, mention is made on September 10, 1947:

“Mr. Peoples, Mr. Hackman, and Lieutenant Thompson, of the Air Materiel Command, arrived at the base to inspect the facilities of this Command and to meet with Colonel Briley. ”

Note: Gilles Fernandez explains that since Mr. Peoples was one of the Mogul project’s scientific managers, the reason of the visit may have been to inform Roswell’s base of the Mogul project to avoid further misunderstandings in the future.

… When NYU and AMC personnel returned to Alamogordo for the first time after the incident, one of their first activities did not involve “launching” balloons, but to inform the Roswell command and Lieutenant-Colonel Joseph Briley from the Roswell base about Mogul. This mission was mainly accomplished by Peoples, a member of the Mogul project (September 10, Roswell, remember), accompanied by Major Pritchard, Captain Dyvad, Mr. Hackman (who also goes to Roswell on September 10 with Peoples) and Lieutenant Thompson.

Source:

  • “Roswell : Rencontre du premier mythe ”, book by Gilles Fernandez, BoD - Books on Demand publishers, France, pages 72,156, 2010.

Thomas J. Carey and Donald Schmitt:

These authors say that Lt. Col. Joseph Briley who was assigned as the operations officer and the headquarters at Roswell in 1947, mused that “Blanchard’s leave was a blind. He was actually setting up a base of operation at the crash site north of town.” “We have also been told by airmen and NCOs who were there that Blanchard clandestinely moved his office to the basement of one of the enlisted men’s barracks on the base to get away from the press. He may also have checked in at the base guard house (a.k.a “the brig”) for a time.”

The authors say in the related footnote that this comes from personal interviews of Joseph Briley in 1992, 2002 and 2006.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-year Cover-up ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, Career Press publisher, pages 193,239, 2007.

Kevin Randle:

This researcher says that Lieutenant colonel Joe Briley, a squadron commander until the middle of July 1947 when he became the 509th Operation Officer, confirmed that William Blanchard’s leave of the Roswell Army Air Field was a blind and that Blanchard had gone to the crash site. Briley said “I’m sure of it.”

The related footnote says that Kevin Randle interviewed Joe Briley by phone on October 20, 1989.

Kevin Randle indicates that Briley said: “The story was changed and hushed up immediately… Frankly it was hushed up so quickly… and so completely that nothing was ever said about it.”

The related footnote says this comes from telephone interviews with Kevin Randle on October 20, 1989 and April 9, 1990, and also Carey and Schmitt in “Witness to Roswell pp 88-89, and Pflock in “Inconvenient Facts” p. 249.

Randle says that the members of Col. Blanchard’s staff reported with the single exception of Lt. Col. Robert Barrowclough that what was found in the incident was alien in nature.

Source:

  • “Roswell in the 21st Century ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Speaking Volumes publishers, 2016.

PRO:

Joe Briley, operations officer for the 509th, told Randle that in July 1947 he was a squadron commander at that time, and he did know that Blanchard had gone out to the crash site. Briley said that most stories were “changed and hushed up immediately as soon as the people from Washington arrived.” Briley said that Blanchard, who had been a close friend, “was not stupid enough to call a weather balloon something else.”

Source:

On his blog, Kevin Randle mentions that in July 1947, there were two base operations officers at Roswell, first was Lieutenant Colonel James Hopkins and second was Lieutenant Colonel Joe Briley.

Source:

Tim Printy:

Tim Printy argues that the idea that the Roswell Air Base knew all about what NYU was doing at Alamogordo [i.e. the Mogul Project] and therefore would not have mistaken the debris for a crashed “flying disc” is a myth.

He says he saw this myth numerous times and that Kevin Randle usually is the source of this information, based on 2 points, the point relevant to this file is that “The NYU team went to RAAF and talked to the base about their operations.”

Printy says this is misleading, based on what Randle interprets about Moore’s comments. The latter stated they tried to get on base but could not because of base security. Therefore, none of them managed to talk to any of the officers. Printy says it is hard to pinpoint when this happened, and that Moore told the USAF that they had to set up their receiver in a hotel in Roswell because of being turned away.

Printy says that some of the Mogul team did eventually make it into a meeting with Lt. Col. Briley, on September 10, 1947, as documented in the 509th unit history. So it was two months after the events in early July 1947 and there is no evidence to suggest that the team met with RAAF officers/personnel in a formal visit before this date.

Source:

My comment:

Once again, I see the situation is quite complex. I note:

I thought previously that Joe Briley was probably Lieutenant, not Lieutenant-Colonel, at the time of the incident, and was probably a Lieutenant-Colonel when he retired from the Air Force.

However, a noted Roswell researcher informed me in 2021 that Joe Briley was really a Lieutenant-Colonel, at the time of the incident. This researcher told me that according to the Yearbook of those assigned to the 509th Bomb Group in 1947, Joe Briley is pictured as the Operations Officer at the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.

He was aged 21 +-1 at the time of the incident.

Skeptics have been trying to say that the Mogul people informed RAAF people in September 1947, and thus likely Briley was involved since he is cited in official document as having been met by the Mogul people, that the “Roswell incident” was debris from a Mogul balloon launch.

This seems to be supported by the Air Force investigation of 1994, as it both said that the Mogul Project was Top Secret and “It was unlikely, therefore, that personnel from Roswell AAF, even though they possessed the appropriate clearances, would have known about project MOGUL”, and that in September 147, “one of the first activities of the project scientists, Peoples and Crary, who were accompanied by Major Pritchard and Captain Dyvad, was to brief the commanding officer of Alamogordo AAF and the 509th Bomb Group Operations Officer, Lt Col Joseph Briley, on MOGUL.”

However:

Mogul team member C.B. Moore, asked twice about the purpose of the visit, did not say it was to inform RAAF about Mogul, but likely to get to set up a receiver at RAAF as the base was downwind from the launch site at Alamogordo.

I doubt there was any need in September 1947 for the Mogul team to go to Roswell to disclose their Top Secret Project because of the incident in early July 1947: this incident had been “closed” within hours by the Army Air Force alone, without the need of any “explanation” by any Mogul people; in September the incident was then totally “debunked” and forgotten, nobody questioned the Army Air Force explanation that the “flying disc” was just the debris of a weather balloon and its radar target. Any “new” incident of this kind would have received the “balloon” explanations even faster without the need of any information about Mogul. So such a useless breach of the “top secret” Mogul projects makes absolutely no sense to me.

It would also be strange that Joe Briley would have been informed of Mogul in September 1947, and never say that to anyone when asked about the incident; it appears that he had been interviewed by one or probably more than one “pro-Roswell” researchers on at least 3 occasions (October 1989, April 1990 and December 1990), and what he allegedly said was not at all that he knew about Mogul. Of course, it could be argued that “pro-Roswell” researchers simply published only those parts of Briley’s statements that fit their agenda.

What he allegedly said was:

Base commander Blanchard was not really on leave when the “crash site” was found, instead, this was a “blind” as Blanchard was on the crash site. Blanchard, he said “couldn’t have cared less about a balloon”.

Apparently, he said “The story was changed and hushed up immediately… Frankly it was hushed up so quickly… and so completely that nothing was ever said about it.”

However:

Briley is quoted in bits here and there over the years, no full transcription or audio or video recording of what he said has been published yet, no affidavit was written. It is obvious that he did not really say what the debris were, and probably did not know what they were.

If I stick to what he allegedly said, it does not about to much: Blanchard could have used a “leave” as an excuse to go to the crash site, but this does not mean that there were debris of an alien spaceship at the crash site. Just the same “blind” could have occurred if the debris at the crash site were those of a Mogul balloon train. Of course it is mildly odd to have any “blind” or hush up about what would have been ordinary balloon debris - Mogul balloon trains were ordinary balloons - but as they had been called “flying disk” earlier, Blanchard might just not have been sure of what was actually out there.

In the end, I feel again that everything is very shoddy and sketchy; the effort for investigation I would have expected is not fulfilled. The Air Force in 1994 used what “pro-Mogul” researcher had said earlier and did not even care to interview their own people unless they supported the Mogul explanations, and “pro-Roswell” researchers only gave some short sentences by Briley, in unknown chronology, without any full transcription, without asking if he knew about Mogul etc.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 28, 2017First published.
1.1Patrick GrossNovember 16, 2021Paragraph “Joe Briley was probably Lieutenant, not Lieutenant-Colonel, at the time of the incident, and was probably a Lieutenant-Colonel when he retired from the Air Force.” replaced with paragraphs “I thought previously that Joe Briley was probably Lieutenant, not Lieutenant-Colonel, at the time of the incident, and was probably a Lieutenant-Colonel when he retired from the Air Force.” and “However, a noted Roswell researcher informed me in 2021 that Joe Briley was really a Lieutenant-Colonel, at the time of the incident. This researcher told me that according to the Yearbook of those assigned to the 509th Bomb Group in 1947, Joe Briley is pictured as the Operations Officer at the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.”

L. M. Hall

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/lmhall.htm

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is L. M. Hall (2) My address is: [Confidential] (3) I am employed as: retired (4) I came to Roswell, New Mexico, in 1943, while serving in the Army Air Force. I was a military policeman and investigator at Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF). In 1946, after being discharged from the service, I joined the Roswell Police Department, and in 1964 I was appointed chief of police, serving for 14 and a half years. I am now a member of the Roswell City Council. (5) In 1947, I was a motorcycle office, with patrol duty on South Main Street, between town and RAAF. I and other police officers would often take our breaks in the small lounge at the Ballard Funeral Home at 910 South Main, where Glenn Dennis worked. I had gotten to know Glenn when I was a base MP because he made ambulance calls to the base under a contract Ballard’s had, so I would sometimes have coffee with him if he was at work when I stopped in. (6) One day in July 1947, I was at Ballard’s on a break, and Glenn and I were in the driveway “batting the breeze.” I was sitting on my motorcycle, and Glenn stood nearby. He remarked, “I had a funny call from the base. They wanted to know if we had several baby caskets.” Then he started laughing and said, “I asked what for, and they said they wanted to bury [or ship] those aliens,” something to that effect. I thought it was one of those “gotcha” jokes, so I didn’t bite. He never said anything else about it, and I didn’t either. (7) I believe our conversation took place couple of days after the stories about a crashed flying saucer appeared in the Roswell papers. (8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: L. M. Hall
Date: 9-15-93 Signature witnessed by:
No one present to witness

Leo Spear

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/leospear.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Leo Spear

(Leo SPEAR). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

I found outside ufology sources that one Leo Spear was a resident of Roswell, New Mexico, born on September 4, 1928, died on Saturday, January 30, 2016.

This Leo Spear would have been about 19 years old at the time of the incident in 1947; this can be compatible with his picture fron the 1947 RAAF yearbook.

Leo Spear is presented as Roswell Campus Police chief on page 2 of the Roswell Daily Record for December 21, 1979.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Leo Spear.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no public statement by Leo Spear.

Investigators notes and comments:

Kevin Randle:

Even if we ignore the testimonies of Steve MacKenzie [1] and Jim Ragsdale [discredited witness], who describe activities on the impact site during the recovery of the craft and bodies, we can still offer testimony to the 509th’s involvement prior to the July 8 press announcement. Leo Spear, a military policeman in Roswell in July 1947, reported hearing other MPs return to the barracks talking about the crashed flying saucer. Like the others who had not been used as guards, Spear thought they were making up the story. But Spear says that when he read about the saucer in the newspaper (July 8), a day or two after he had heard from his fellow MPs, he changed his mind. In other words, he had heard about the crash from the guards prior to the press release. The release convinced him their stories were true. This corroborates the reports of those who claim military involvement on july 5 and supports the idea that the military were preparing for contingencies on July 6. It suggests they knew a great deal more much earlier than researchers have believed until recently.

Source:

Kevin Randle says Leo Spear was an MP with the 1395th MP Company assigned to Roswell in 1947, and when interviewed in May 1994, he said that he had no first-hand knowledge, that he hadn’t been out to guard the crash site, but he had been in the barracks when those who had been guards returned. He heard them talking about the crashed flying saucer.

According to Spear, “I can’t remember if it was the evening shift… or if it was the next morning… but they saw the truck come in and they said, ‘You know what? They brought in some stuff from a UFO…that crashed north of Roswell…we thought they were BS-ing until we read the article about it. (emphasis added.) I think it was the next day or the next day after that.”

Randle notes that in 1947, they would not have used the term UFO, but undoubtedly did say flying saucer or flying disk.

He comments that this does establish military involvement in a retrieval operation prior to July 8 when the conventional wisdom suggests that the only military personnel involved to that point had been Marcel and Cavitt, and that Spear was suggesting that the MPs were guarding the site as early as July 5.

Source:

  • “New First hand witnesses prove the truth about the Roswell UFO crash ”, article by Captain Kevin D. Randle (USAF Ret.), Spring 1995,

Kevin Randle explains that at one time he tried to find all the members of the 1395th Military Police Company and went through the Roswell base Yearbook for 1947 and matched the names to telephone numbers thanks to computer programs and free white pages sites.

One of the MPs he found was Leo Spear, and he interviewed him in June 1994.

Spear himself did not go to the crash site or the hangar, he was in the barracks when some of the others came in. He told Randle: “I can’t remember if it was the evening shift or if it was the next morning when they came in with a cock and bull story… these guys come in but they said the truck come in and they brought in some stuff from a UFO… that crashed north of Roswell. And we thought they was BS-ing until we read the article about it…”

Randle says the timing seems to suggest that those MPs who went out to guard the site had gone out the day before the article appeared in the newspaper. They had come back late that evening when Spear and the others thought they were making up the tale. When they saw the article in the next day’s newspaper, they changed their mind.

Source:

  • “Roswell Revisited ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Galde Press publishers, 2007.

On his blog, Kevin Randle says that on June 3, 1994, he interviewed Leo Spears, a former member of the 1395th Military Police Company who had been stationed in Roswell in July 1947.

He says Leo Spear told him, that he was a PVT E2, however in the Roswell 1947 Yearbook he was identified as a PFC in July 1947, with the military police company. He had not been assigned to guard duty involving any of the material recovered, but did talk about it with his friends who had been involved. He said “…it was the next morning when they came in with a cock and bull story… they said, ‘You know what? They brought in some stuff from a UFO. And that it had crashed north of Roswell.‘”

Randle notes that he did say “UFO” (an acronyme that did not exist in 1947 - PG note) but that in 1994, it is not surprising and in 1947 they likely had said “flying saucer”.

Spear told Randle that he thought the MPs were crazy, but the next day, when he saw in the newspaper that they had picked up pieces of a flying saucer, he realized that it wasn’t a cock and bull story and that something had happened.

Source:

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossMay 19, 2017First published.

Lorenzo Kent Kimball

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/lorenzokentkimball.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Lorenzo Kent Kimball

(Lorenzo Kent Kimball). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Lorenzo Kent Kimball (1922-1999), Professor Emeritus of Political Science at the University of Utah, passed away in 1999 at the age of seventy-six. He was born, raised, and spent most of his life in Utah. He enlisted in the army upon graduation from high school at the age of eighteen. His military career spanned from 1941 to his final retirement from the US Air Force in 1962 as Lieutenant Colonel, with a brief interruption in 1945-46, a year that he spent as a student at the University of Utah. He later earned a B.A. (1962) and a Ph.D. (1968) in political science from the same institution.

Affidavits:

None found.

Interviews and public statements:

Lorenzo Kent Kimball tells of his connection with the time and place:

About the reports by Roswell’s Ballard Funeral Home employee mortician Glenn Dennis, he writes:

“1- There was no mortuary on the Base. There was no AAF mortuary officer with such an assignment. As Medical Supply Officer I was responsible for obtaining, maintaining and issuing all supplies and equipment for the Base Hospital and any functions of a mortuary officer would have been within my responsibilities. I never met Glenn Dennis and I don’t recall ever calling him for anything.” “2- There was no nurse named Naomi Maria Selff assigned to the Base Hospital during the period I was assigned there (1946-1948). I was well acquainted with all five nurses assigned during this time and none of them anywhere near fit Dennis’ description of the nurse he knew. Further research by UFO researcher Victor Golubic has determined that no nurse by that name was ever commissioned in the U.S. Army or assigned to the Army Air Force.” “3- The photograph cited above is of a two story brick structure. The entire hospital complex was a World War II cantonment type, one-story, wooden frame structure. There were NO two story buildings and NO brick structures in the complex.”

About researchers Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt statements that a Major Jesse B. Johnson of the 509th Bomb Group was the base pathologist who assisted in a preliminary autopsies on alien bodies, and their claim that “Johnson’s position as a pathologist has been verified by a number of former members of the 509th Bomb Group” and “verified by the 509th yearbook and the RAAF unit history”, he writes:

“1- There was a physician named Jesse B. Johnson assigned to the Base Hospital. However, he was a 1st Lt., not a Major, and he was a radiologist, not a pathologist. He had no training as a pathologist and would have been the last member of the medical staff to have performed any autopsy on a human much less an alien!! He is identified as a 1st Lt in the 509th Yearbook.” “2- After I learned of these assertions, I called Doctor Jack Comstock, who, as a Major, was the Hospital Commander in 1947, and in 1995 was living in retirement in Boulder, Colorado. I asked him if he recalled any such events occurring in July of 1947 and he said absolutely not. When I told him that Jesse B. was supposed to have conducted a preliminary autopsy on alien bodies, he had a hard time stopping laughing - his response was: PREPOSTEROUS!!” “3- Major Comstock lived in the Hospital BOQ, located in the hospital complex. Any unusual activity was immediately reported to him by members of the medical and nursing staff. He told me (this was in 1995 prior to his death in February 1996) that NOTHING of this nature occurred in July 1947 at the Base Hospital.”

He concludes:

“From first-hand knowledge, I am reasonably certain that no alien bodies were brought to the Base Hospital in July 1947 where “preliminary autopsies” were supposedly conducted. There was no nurse by the name of Naomi Maria Selff ever assigned to Squadron M, 509th Bomb Group. The statements made by Glenn Dennis are not credible. The accounts in the Randle/Schmitt book concerning Jesse B. Johnson are fiction.”

Source of the above:

See also:

  • “Take it from one who was there: no aliens at Roswell in 1947 ”, article by Lorenzo Kent Kimball, in “Skeptical Inquirer”, #21, 1997.

Investigators notes and comments:

Patrick Gross:

Here we have a negative witness to the claims of Glenn Dennis and the notion that a preliminary autopsy could have been performed at the Roswell Army Air Field Hospital.

Lorenzo Kent Kimball indicates as challenge to Glenn Dennis claims that “there was no mortuary on the Base.” Glenn Dennis has not said that there was a mortuary at the base, he spoke of the base’s hospital. However Glenn Dennis indeed publicly claimed that there was a mortuary officer at the base and that they were close friends.

Loretta Proctor

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/lorettaproctor.htm

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is Loretta Proctor. (2) My address is: [Confidential] (3) I am retired. (4) In July 1947, my neighbor William W. “Mac” Brazel came to my ranch and showed my husand and me a piece of material he said came from a large pile of debris on the property he managed. The piece he brought was brown in color, similar to plastic. He and my husband tried to cut and burn the object, but they weren’t successful. It was extremely light in weight. I had never seen anything like it before. (5) “Mac” said the other material on the property looked like aluminum foil. It was very flexible and wouldn’t crush or burn. There was also something he described as tape which had printing on it. The color of the printing was a kind of purple. He said it wasn’t Japanese writing; from the way he described it, it sounded like it resembled hieroglyphics. (6) Some time later, my husband, my brother, and one of his friends saw “Mac” in Roswell, surrounded by soldiers. He walked right by them, without speaking a word. The Army kept him five or six days. When he got back, he said that the Army told him the object he found was a weather balloon. “If I see another one,” he said, “I won’t report it.” He was upset about them keeping him from home that long. He wouldn’t talk about it after he got back. (7) “Mac” Brazel was a good neighbor, usually pretty friendly. He was not the kind of person who would tell a lie or create a hoax. He knew what weather balloons were like, because he had found them before. (8) The piece of material I saw did not resemble anything from a weather balloon. I had seen weather balloons before. I had never seen anything like this. (9) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement. It is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: Loretta Proctor
[Signed]
Date: May 5 - 1991 Signature witnessed by: Alma Hobbs
[Signed]

Lydia Sleppy

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/lydiasleppy.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Lydia Sleppy

(Lydia SLEPPY, Lydia A. SLEPPY).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Under construction.

Affidavits:

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is Lydia A Sleppy (2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX (3) I am employed as: ____
I am retired: 9/30/77 from State of California, Dept. Parks & Recreation (4) In 1947, worked at KOAT Radio in Albuquerque, New Mexico. My duties included operating the station’s teletype machine, which received news and allowed us to send stories to the ABC and Mutual networks, with which KOAT was affiliated. (5) In early July 1947, I received a call from John McBoyle, general manager and part-owner of KSWS Radio in Roswell, New Mexico, which was associated with KOAT. I do not remember the exact date, but it definitely was a weekday (I never worked weekends) and almost certainly after the Fourth of July. The call came in before noon. (6) McBoyle said he had something hot for the network. I asked Karl Lambertz, our program director and acting manager (KOAT owner and manager Merle Tucker was out of town), to be present in my office while I took the story from McBoyle and put it on the teletype. Using the teletype, I alerted ABC News headquarters in Hollywood to expect an important story, and Mr. Lambertz stood behind me while I typed. (7) To the best of my recollection, McBoyle said, “There’s been one of these flying saucer things crash down here north of Roswell.” He said he had been in a coffee shop on his morning break when a local rancher, “Mac” Brazel, came in and said he had discovered the object some time ago while he was out riding on the range, and that he had towed it in and stored it underneath a shelter on his property. Brazel offered to take McBoyle to the ranch to see the object. McBoyle described it as “a big crumpled dishpan.” (8) As I typed McBoyle’s story, a bell rang on the teletype, indicating an interruption. The machine then printed a message something to this effect: “THIS IS THE FBI. YOU WILL IMMEDIATELY CEASE ALL COMMUNICATION.” Whatever the precise words were, I definitely remember the message was from the FBI and that it directed me to stop transmitting. I told McBoyle the teletype had been cut off and took the rest of his story in shorthand, but we never put it on the wire because we had been scooped by the papers. (9) I never again discussed the matter with McBoyle, but the next day, he told Mr. Lambertz the military had isolated the area where the saucer was found and was keeping the press out. He told Lambertz he saw planes come in from Wright Field, Ohio, to take the think away. He also said they claimed they were going to take it to one place, but the planes went to another. Either they were supposed to have gone to Texas but went to Wright Field or vice versa. (10) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: Lydia A. Sleppy
Date: 9-14-93 Signature witnessed by:
Ada A. Somers

Ufology sources:

“Saga’s UFO report” in 1974:

[…] During that same time in New Mexico, a woman with a responsible position at a radio station received a call from the station manager. He had been out checking reports of a UFO which had crashed in a field and was trying to track down the rumor that pieces of the object were supposedly stored in a local barn. In his excited call to the newsroom, the station manager verified the UFO crash report, and also claimed he had seen metallic pieces of the UFO being carried into a waiting Air Force plane which was destined for Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. As the woman began typing out the fantastic news over the teletype to their other two radio stations, a line appeared in the middle of her text, tapped in from somewhere, with the official order: “Do not continue this transmission!” […]

  • “UFO Battles the Air Force Couldn’t Cover Up ”, article by Bobbi Allen Slate and Stanton Friedman, in Saga’s UFO Report , USA, page 60, Winter 1974.

Note: This is very obviously the story of Lydia Sleppy, the “woman with a resposible position at a radio station”; published here in a UFO magazine 4 years before the Roswell incident appeared as a ufology topic.

Interview by Stanton Friedman 1990:

“We were Mutual Broadcasting and ABC, and if we had anything newsworthy, we would put it on the machine, and I was the one who did the typing. It was in my office. Mr Tucker was in Washington DC trying to get an application approved for a station in El Paso, when this call came from John McBoyle. He told me he had something hot for the network. I said, “Give me a minute and I’ll get the assistant manager,” because if it was anything like that, I wanted one of them there while I was taking it down.” “I went back and asked Mr. Lambertz - he came up from the big Dallas station - if he would come up and watch. John was dictating and he was standing right at my shoulder. I got into it enough to know that it was a pretty big story, when the bell came on. Typing came across: “This is the FBI, you will cease transmitting.” “I had my shorthand pad, and I turned around and told him that I had been cut off, but that I could take it in shorthand and then we could call it in to the network. I took it in shorthand, as John went on to give the story. He had seen them take the thing away. He’d been out there [presumably at the Foster ranch] when they took it away. And at that time, if I remember correctly, John said they were gonna load it up and take it to Texas. But when the planes came in, they were from Wright Field.”

Source:

  • Interview of Lydia Sleppy, by Stanton Friedman, October 1990.

Investigators notes and comments:

(Under construction.)

Kal K. Korff:

In an article for CSICOP’s Skeptical Inquirer magazine, Kal K. Korff wrote that Lydia Sleppy claimed she was operating a teletype machine announcing the recovery of the flying disk when her teletype suddenly went dead and broadcast an ominous message from the FBI back to her ordering her to stop broadcasting the story in the interests of national security.

He then opposes that the truth is that he personally checked with all relevant FBI field offices and their headquarters and no evidence turned up that the FBI sent any such message. He adds that the FBI “did not have the monitoring equipment in place to do so.”

He adds that furthermore, the type of teletype machine in use by Sleppy at the time would have required her to throw a “receiver” switch in order for her to receive an incoming transmission. There was no way that the FBI could have “interrupted” her as she claims.

  • “What Really Happened at Roswell”, article by Kal K. Korff in Skeptical Inquirer magazine, July/August 1997.

Timothy D. Printy:

http://members.aol.com/TPrinty/crash.html

Lydia’s story has another interesting twist, when we learn about her Teletype machine. According to her, the message just started typing out and she could not transmit. However, Kal Korff points out that the Dallas field office of the FBI found out that the Teletype used by Sleppy had a transmit-receive switch. Her description of the message just printing out is not exactly correct. She had to change the switch position to receive. Kal also states the FBI had no files on Lydia Sleppy, which indicates they were not monitoring her communications.

Patrick P. Gross:

I comment on Kal K. Korff’s paragraph about Lydia Sleppy that

  • ASR Automatic Send-Receive Teletypewriter Machine.
  • that the FBI had no file on Lydia Sleppy is obviously not an argument since the FBI could not know that the person typing at Albuquerque was Mrs Lydia Sleppy. The “monitored conversation” was not about a Mrs Sleppy typing a TWX but about a Mr. Ed McBoyle talking of a crashed disk over the phone.

I comment on Timothy Printy’s paragraph about the teletype problem:

  • in his haste to “debunk” the witness of Lydia Sleppy, he has simply re-run Kal K. Korff’s skeptical enquirer paragraphs. The “according to her” is seemingly announcing some contradiction, but there isn’t a contradiction.

Kal K. Korff is President and CEO of TotalResearch, a company dedicated to studying “universal mysteries and concerns.” He has appeared on such TV shows as CNN’s Larry King Live and Fox’s Encounters. He is the author of Spaceships of the Pleiades: The Billy Meier Story (1996) and The Roswell UFO Crash: What They Don’t Want You to Know (1997), both from Prometheus Books. He is a former senior systems analyst at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory on the “Star Wars” program and is a recognized expert and pioneer in computer-based multimedia systems who helped develop Apple Computer’s revolutionary HyperCard software — the ancestor to the Internet software Browser. He can be reached at 16625 Redmond Way #254, Redmond, WA 98052, or through e-mail at TotlResrch@aol.com.

Telegraphy usage accelerated rapidly during the 1920s when the financial industry adopted the technology to send records of transactions. At this time, news organizations began using telegraph service for transmitting stories between offices.

In November, 1931 the Bell System inaugurated the teletypewriter exchange service, often called the TWX (pronounced “twicks”) service. It provided a complete communications system for the written word, including teletypewriters, transmission channels and switchboards.

Here’s how it worked: Customer A sent information to customer B by typing the information on a teletypewriter keyboard. The teletypewriter converted the message to a coded signal which was sent out on the local loop to the STC and central office equipment. There the signal was converted to make it compatible with the carrier’s lines and sent on to the STC serving the distant city. The central office equipment then converted the signal again and sent it over the local loop to customer B’s teletypewriter which decoded the signal and printed the information.

Mary Kathryn Goode

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/marygoode.htm

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is Mary (Catherine) Kathryn Goode. (2) My address is: [Blackened] (3) I am employed as: [Blackened] (4) My father was Oliver W. Henderson. When 1 was growing up, he and 1 would often spend evenings looking at the stars. On one occasion, 1 asked him what he was looking for. He said, “I’m looking for flying saucers. They’re real, you know.” (5) In 1981, during a visit to my parents’ home, my father showed me a newspaper article which described the crash of a UFO and the recovery of alien bodies outside Roswell, New Mexico. He told me that he saw the crashed craft and the alien bodies described in the article, and that he had flown the wreckage to Ohio. He described the alien beings as small and pale, with slanted eyes and large heads. He said they were humanoid-looking, but different from us. I think he said there were three bodies. (6) He said the matter had been top secret and that he was not supposed to discuss it with anyone, but that he felt it was all right to tell me because it was in the newspaper. (7) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: Mary K. Goode Date: August 14, 1991 Signature witnesses by : Robyn L. Christl, Notary Public, Nevada, Douglas County

Melvin Brown

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/melvinbrown.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Melvin Brown

(Melvin BROWN, Melvin E. BROEN, Melvin C. BROWN). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Note:

Melvin E. Brown never testified to anyone else than, allegedly, his daughter Berverly Bean.

So, please read the file about Beverly Bean to see what Melvin Brown allegedly told her.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 17, 2017First published.

Patrick Saunders

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/patricksaunders.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Patrick Saunders

(Patrick SAUNDERS, Patrick H. SAUNDERS).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

I was able to verify outside ufology sources Patrick H. Saunders married in 1951 in Tucson, Arizona, and his military assignments would take them to Roswell, N.M.

I was unable to find any corroboration of the cited medals he is said to be recipients of.

Affidavits:

There was no affidavit by Patrick Saunders.

Interviews and public statements:

There was no public statement by Patrick Saunders.

Investigators notes and comments:

Kevin Randle:

Kevin Randle wrote that Patrick Saunders was the base adjutant in 1947, and the recovery operation could not have gone forward without his knowledge because he would have been responsible for all the paperwork that would have been generated, he would have had to know.

Randle says that when he first contacted Saunders, Saunders made jokes about little green men and said that he didn’t really know anything of importance. He talked of other matters and Randle thought there would be nothing to learn from him about Roswell. But Saunders bought copies of both “The UFO Crash at Roswell” and “The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell”, and according to family and friends, he bought lots of copies and sent them out.

Randle notes that in the front of some of the copies, on the flyleaf, Saunders wrote, “This is the truth and I still haven’t told anybody anything!” and signed his name.

Randle notes that there was no reason for Saunders to have done this: it was not as if he was having a laugh by ‘pulling my chain’”, as Saunders had no reason to suspect that Randle would even learn that he had done this.

Saunders died about 18 months before Randle learned about the statements in the books. Randles says he since talked to his widow and got in touch with his daughter. Saunders had planned to leave a video report on what he knew, but died before he made it.

Randle concludes:

We are left with the statements that he wrote in the front of the Roswell books. Statements that should carry real weight because of who he was and the circumstances under which the statements were made.

Source:

Randle says Patrick Saunders was the Roswell Army Air Field adjutant in July 1947, and, retired Colonel, died in November 1995, after a fall that put him into the hospital. Saunders was born in Alabama in 1916 and died 76 years later in 1995 in Florida. He attended the University of Florida and was graduated from the University of Nebraska at Omaha and the Air War College. During WW II he flew 37 combat missions and was awarded the Legion of Merit, the Silver Star, a Bronze Star with Oak Leaf Cluster, the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Medal with three Oak Leaf Clusters.

Randle says that before dying he left a legacy of information about his role in the retrieval and cover up: and as the adjutant and a member of Colonel William Blanchard’s primary staff, Saunders must have been involved, and that according to the information he ahs, he was “not only in on it, he played a major part in it.”

Randle says he first talked to Saunders in June 1989, as he was beginning his research into the Roswell case. Saunders just got out of the hospital after a heart attack, and Randle would waited several weeks before calling him if he had known this.

When Randle asked his by telephone conversation about the possibility of the UFO crash, he said that he knew nothing about the little green bodies and said that the whole thing was a big joke. He did confirm that he had been the 509th adjutant for only a few weeks when the events of July 1947 transpired.

Randle asked if he could remember any of the rumors and which of those might have some truth to them, and he siply replied “I can’t specify anything.” Randle thought Saunders was not a witness to the story, or rather, he led Randle to believe this at the time, which probably saved him from dozens of telephone calls from around the world wanting to know what the truth was.

But after “UFO Crash at Roswell” and “The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell” were published, Randle learned that Saunders bought copies, even lots of copies because, according to what he wrote on the first page of “The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell”, he believed that was the truth.

He wrote on the flyleaf on the book which was labeled, “Damage Control,” in his own handwriting, “Here’s the truth and I still haven’t told anybody anything! Pat” Randle presumes this comment refers to that specific page.

The page was about files and personal records that were altered, along with assignments and various codings and code words. The page told that changing serial numbers ensured that those searching later would not be able to locate those who were involved in the recovery. Individuals were brought into Roswell from Alamogordo, Albuquerque and Los Alamos. The MP s were a special unit constructed of military police elements from Kirtland, Alamogordo, and Roswell. If the men did not know one another or were separated after the event, they would be unable to compare notes and that would make the secret easier to keep.

Randle says that on the flyleaf to “UFO Crash at Roswell”, which he sent on to his daughter, he had written, “You were there! Love, Dad.”

Randle descripes the page where this was written; it is about senior counterintelligence man Rickett and the Provost Marshal walking the perimeter of the debris field and examining the scattered wreckage there, with a description of the pieces, and th CIC agent telling Rickett who agreed, that “You and I were never out here”, “You and I never saw this. You don’t see any military people or military vehicles out here either.”

Randle comments that these handwriten notes are opened to interpretation and will probably be argued against.

He adds that according to a letter he received from one of Saunders’ children, Saunders had “At one point… bragged to me about how well he had covered the ‘paper trail’ associated with the clean up!”

Randle says that in the months before he died, Saunders confided in a number of close and life long friends that suddenly, the officers of the 509th Bomb Group were confronted with a technology greater than that of Earth. The occupants of the flying saucers had control of the sky, and the Air Force was powerless against them though they had just seen the power of control of the skyas a key factors that defeated the enemies in WWII.

Saunders also told people that military officials had no idea about what the intentions of the flying saucers occupnats might be. Their technology was more advanced than that of the United States and top military leaders did not know if the alien beings were a threat so the government was reluctant to release anything about them. Saunders warned those he talked with to be careful, as he was aware of the threats that had been made and he believed that those making them were serious.

Randle says one of the daughters of Saucers wrote, “…he asked me a lot of questions probably to see if, in fact, I had read (UFO Crash at Roswell) carefully. Then he wanted me to understand that he felt the threats to people who ‘talked’ were very real…”

Randle notes that when the Air Force was made their Roswell investigation, they did not interview Saunders, though they certainly had the chance as he was not all that old, only 76, and while his heart might have been weakened, he certainly had the strength to sit through an interview with another Air Force officer.

Randle notes that Saunders only talked to close friends and family only after the story had been told by so many others, so that it cannot be said he was seeking fame or fortune by creating a tale to put himself in the limelight.

Randle says that when Saunders prepared for his own funeral, he added a note to his list of accomplishments mentioning his role in Roswell.

Note: please note this is a summary of Kevin Randle’s report, and that the report includes reproduction of the handwritten notes mentioned in it. Refer to the source below. On Kevin Randle’s blog, there are also comments by reader and answers by Randle that I do not reproduce here.

Source:

Tim Printy:

Tim Printy says that “Kevin Randle’s preoccupation with information produced by people who die reaches a peak when it comes to a man named Patrick Saunders.”

He says Saunders was the 509th adjutant for a short period of time in July 1947 and could possibly know about the whole event. When asked about Roswell, Saunders stated he knew nothing about the little green bodies and said that the whole thing was a big joke. Kevin Randle was perplexed and appeared to give up on Saunders until he died in 1995, and now “we discover that Saunders wrote in the flyleaf of at least one copy of the book, The Truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell”:

“Here’s the truth and I still haven’t told anybody anything” (Randle Randle 203). Then Randle states that he told all his close friends all about it in the months before he died.

Printy says that if this is true, why didn’t Saunders call Randle up and tell him the “whole truth”? Randle supposedly had this copy of the book and Printy originally felt that this was a figment of his imagination since he did not publish a copy of this note, but Randle “eventually would publish an image of this note.”

Printy says “I was surprised and it is signed “Pat” (Randle “The Roswell Disconnect”).”

Randle contemplates that Saunders may have been pulling his leg but then dismisses it. Nobody knows the context of the “message” and Printy felt, at one point, that it could have been a forgery, and that the document should be verified as coming from Saunders because there have been plenty of forgeries and lies told in the Roswell story.

According to Randle, Saunders was going to make a videotape of his story before he died but never got around to it. Randle states Saunders is a key player because, “Patrick Saunders was the base adjutant in 1947. The recovery operation couldn’t have gone forward without his knowledge because he would have been responsible for all the paperwork that would have been generated. He would have had to know” (Randle “The Roswell Disconnect”).

Printy comments:

What Randle fails to mention is that there was no paperwork found concerning any crash! What is he supposed to be doing? Did he simply generate and then immediately destroy the paperwork? Maybe he was telling everyone not to generate paperwork. Then how come he is never mentioned by any of the other witnesses about being told not to generate reports/paperwork? What was Saunders “need to know” and why would he be involved at all? I see no proof that Saunders was involved except for this fleeting note. Then there is the question of how accurate can this be when many of the principle witnesses in the book have been shown to be lying and much of what was in the book was found to be inaccurate. How can this book be a reflection of what really happened if so much is wrong? The actual purpose of the note appears to have been revealed when more information became available.

Printy says that Randle, in an effort to give Saunders more credibility, presented another book with a note in it from Saunders. This is a copy of UFO Crash at Roswell, which he sent his daughter. The writing on the document states “You were there. Love, Dad” (Randle “The Roswell UFO Crash…”). At the bottom of the page there are various numbers listed. Most of these are page numbers where his name appears in the book. After looking at it, Printy thought he begun to understand what has transpired: “It appears that this is probably Saunders handwriting and the context is that of an old man, who seemed interested in how he will be remembered. I was somewhat confused by the “You” as a note to his daughter, which would mean she was there. I am sure it probably is meant as a joke, and that in light of this one can look at the other note and realize it too was probably a joke.

Printy concludes:

The whole idea of Saunders writing little cryptic notes in books is just plain silly. Had Saunders really engineered all of this and wanted everyone to know, he would have made it clear in a diary/notebook/document to be opened after his death. Instead, we get these little tidbits that are vague and inconclusive. If he were really involved in such a cover-up, why not go through the book and correct all the factual errors so history could preserve what really happened? He then could write on the cover that this is what really happened. Where Randle sees proof of a grand conspiracy, I see nothing more than some humorous comments by an old man to friends and family.

Printy lists works cited in his page:

- Randle, Kevin. The Randle Report: UFOs in the 90s. New York: M. Evans and Company inc., 1997
- “The Roswell Disconnect.” The Randle Report. Online. Internet. Available WWW: http://web.archive.org/web/20000612015845/http://www.randlereport.com/report14.html
- “The Roswell UFO Crash and Patrick Saunders”. A different perspective. March 16, 2009. Online. Internet. Available WWW: http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2009/03/roswell-ufo-crash-and-patrick-saunders.html

Source:

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 27, 2017First published.

Paul Brazel

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/paulbrazel.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Paul Brazel

(Paul BRAZEL). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Paul Taylor Brazel (October 30, November 27, 1997) was one of the three sons of “Mack” Brazel, he was 28 years old at the time of the incident, and dies at 78 in his home.

He was born on the Brazel Ranch south of Carrizozo, New Mexico.

He mainly resided in Carrizozo, Lincoln County, New Mexico, USA, then Los Alamos, New Mexico, and in 1963 he moved to Bandon, Coos County, Oregon, USA.

He entered the U.S. Army in 1939 and was in the last commissioned cavalry at Fort Clark, Texas. He was also a veteran of World War II and fought in both the Japanese and German theaters.

He was married, had a child, and a member of the Eularosa Masonic Lodge for more than 50 years.

(I found and verified the above information in non-ufological sources.)

Interviews and public statements:

There are none.

Investigators notes and comments:

Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt:

These researchers said that one of the sons of “Mack” Brazel was Paul, who died in 1997. They say he was employed running a ranch in Texas for the same J. B. Foster that employed his father in 1947, but when interviewed he said he had no direct knowledge of the events.

Source:

  • In: “Mack Brazel Reconsidered ”, article by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, in the International UFO Reporter (IUR), CUFOS bulletin, Winter 1999.

These authors said in 2007 that during the disruption of the ranch activities by the army because of the incident, cattle and sheep had to be fed and watered, and horses needed tending. The troops assigned to the cleanup operation did not care about that, but Brazel’s two older sons, after hearing about his disappearance, came to take care of the ranch. Unfortunately, his son Paul made the error of arriving first, during the military’s occupation.

They say Paul was a rancher in Texas at that time and traveled some distance to help out his father, or to try to help.

The authors tell of their furstration as Paul Brazel would never discuss the situation with them, always telling he had absolutely nothing to say.

But finally, just before he passed away from cancer in 1995, he confessed one important concern as a rancher to his nephew Joe: “You know what always riled me even up to this day?” “Every time I tried to get to the main ranch house (10 miles from the debris field) to water the horses in all that summer heat, the damn Army forced me off the ranch. I tried again the next day and they still threw me off the property. I was sure they did nothing for any of the animals.”

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, New Page publishers, page 71, 2007.

(In this source, the authors provide a picture of Mack Brazel with his two sons Paul and Bill.)

Anthony Bragalia:

Source:

Paul Wilmot

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/paulwilmot.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Paul Wilmot

(Paul WILMOT). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Paul Wilmot is the son of Mr. and Mrs. Dan Wilmot, witnesses of a phenomenon in the sky in Roswell on July 2, 1947; which might have been a meteor.

This bio information is established by he fact that he appeared as such in a TV documentaries series by Leonard Nimoy titled “In Search of…” (1976-1982), about the latter’s investigations into various mysteries.

Paul Wilmot - and Jesse Marcel - appeared in an episode first aired on September 20, 1980, titled “UFO Coverups”, with a summary saying: “An investigation into UFO sightings with an emphasis on the 1947 Roswell, New Mexico sightings, Project Blue Book, and Hangar 18 at Wright-Patterson AFB.”

Source: see for example http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0902063/?ref_=nm_flmg_slf_1)

Affidavits:

These is no affidavit by Paul Wilmot.

Interviews and public statements:

Paul Wilmot said about the Roswell incident in the TV documentary “In Search of…” by Leonard Nimoy in 1980:

“[Image of the house] this was their home. In July 1947. It was one summer evening they were sitting out here [shows the porch], Dad looked up in the West saw an object that came down, it had lights blinking and… it was rather frightening to him but he said all of a suddent it seemed to rock a little bit [Paul Wilmot spoints above the house opposite in the street] and counter-balanced itself, wiggled a little bit then seems to settle down, take off and rapidly gain speed [Paul Wilmot nakes a gesture as if the UFO goes to his right]”

The Wilmots home.

Paul Wilmot showing the object position before showing it to go to the right.

Investigators notes and comments:

On the web:

There is a little more to the Wilmot story. In his last interview in 1981, former Roswell intelligence chief Jesse Marcel said he had met the Wilmot’s son Paul when he returned to Roswell in 1980. According to Marcel, Paul Wilmot said his parents had also seen the object seeming to explode in the distance, but did not report this. Marcel then added that a few days later was when the rancher came to town to report that something had exploded over his ranch during a lightning storm.

Source:

Note: several websites published the same.

David Rudiak:

David Rudiak says Jesse Marcel Sr. told Linda Corley in his last interview that when he went back to Roswell around 1980 and spoke to Wilmot’s son, Paul Wilmot told him his parents not only saw the object fly overhead but explode off in the distance. Then, said Marcel, the rancher came to Roswell a few days later to report the exploded flying saucer.

Source:

Jérôme Beau:

Inhabitant of the locality of Roswell. Wilmot was reported to have witnessed Roswell’s crash, 1947-7-2 at 9:50 pm, when he and his wife saw an oval-shaped craft streaking in the sky heading northwest. On 7-8, the Roswell Daily Record published the news on the cover, preceded by dozens of newspapers around the world. It can be read, below a beautiful headline on 5 columns, citing the testimony of the Wilmot. In 1980 Paul Wilmot, son of Dan Wilmot, told Jesse A. Marcel that his parents had actually seen the object explode.

Source:

My comments:

Apparently, Paul Wilmot told Major Marcel that his parents heard, or saw, the “saucer” they saw passing, explode. Marcel apparently told this in his last interview in 1981 by Linda Corley.

Refer to the Wilmots file for details on what they reported. The claim about the explosion was not made by the parents at the time, or at least, it was not published at the time.

I would like to note that the mention of an explosion of the object brings nothing very convincing either way: it may seem to corroborate that a flying saucer exploded in the direction of the Foster ranch on July 2, 1947; but meteors too can explode… And the Wilmots testimony may or may not be explained as a meteor.

If the statements are taken at face value, with an object that “wiggles” and “counter-balances itself”, the meteor explanation does not hold. But I cannot be sure that Paul Wilmot’s memory is correct, and I cannot be sure it is incorrect. It does seems quite different from his father’s report as there was no mention of blinking lights, no mention of movement changes, in his father’s testimony on July 8, 1947.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 25, 2017First published.

”Philip Croft”

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/philipcroft.htm

New Roswell witness says Brazel hid debris

By Donald R. Burleson, Ph.D. MUFON SD, New Mexico investigators over the years have, produced an impressive body of witness testimony painting a remarkably clear and consistent picture of the now famous Roswell crash debris. People who were present in 1947 and fortunate enough to see, and in some cases touch, the debris, have described (among other things) thin pieces of foil resistant to being broken or burned. Now a new witness has turned up to add some detail to this ever growing narrative. He is unwilling to be identified, and I will refer to him by the fictitious name of Philip Croft… My wife, Mollie Burleson, herself a MUFON member, first met Mr. Croft quite by chance and conducted a preliminary interview with him. Subsequently I have conducted two follow-up interviews, and the account that has unfolded appears to be highly significant. Mr. Croft spoke freely and comfortably to us of his experience, but understandably insisted on remaining anonymous. In 1951 Croft lived in Corona, NM, and was employed by the Highway Department, working on roads around Vaughn, Corona, and Carrizozo. He and his friends used to go deer hunting on land near Corona. One day in November of 1951 one of his two hunting companions was Mack Brazel, whom he and a friend had met at the bar in Corona. This was of course the W. W. Mack Brazel well known to UFO researchers as the ranch foreman who came into Roswell on Sunday, July 6, 1947, with a box of strange debris to show Sheriff George Wilcox and got himself taken by the military for his troubles. Mr. Croft’s account adds some intriguing new facets to our understanding of Brazel’s involvement in the Roswell incident. On the day in question, the hunting party was out in the prairie southeast of Corona near the spot where Brazel had parked his truck. Brazel suddenly seemed a bit nervous for some reason. He looked toward his truck and said, “I want to show you boys something.” Going to the truck arid opening the door, he pulled an odd object out from behind the seat. Philip Croft has described the object as a piece of “silver-aluminum” metallic foil, “paper thin,” and about the size and shape of a dinner plate. Unfortunately he didn’t get to touch the material himself, but he had plenty of opportunity to observe it, because Brazel set the object up at.the base of a pinyon tree and suggested that they fire at it-which they did-with 30.06 deer rifles from a distance of about thirty feet, an easy target for experienced deer hunters. Mr. Croft said that when the foil was hit, it spun a considerable distance up in the air and came floating down “like Kleenex.” Upon examining the material, the men found that it showed no effects from having been hit-not even a dent, and certainly no tears or punctures. Keep in mind that the material, which resembled tinfoil, was paper-thin and light enough to float down through the air. I’m not a hunter, but two weapons experts have assured me that a shot from a 30.06 from a lot further away than thirty feet will easily penetrate a car door, and the weapon will of course drop a deer from more than a hundred yards away. Yet these shots left the strange piece of foil unscratched. (This suggests that rumors of full-scale ballistics tests done in secret on the Roswell material-tests that left it unaffected - may well be true.) It is clear from this account that in spite of all official efforts to the contrary, and in spite of his son Bill Brazel’s having had his own scraps of debris confiscated in 1949, Mack Brazel must have managed to keep an illicit piece of debris from the Roswell UFO crash. As described, the material that Croft observed in 1951 could in no way have originated on this planet, though Mr. Croft himself drew no particular conclusions about its origins. In fact he asked Brazel at the time, “Didn’t the army people tell you what the stuff is?” Brazel, in characteristically colorful fashion, replied, “No, and they’re sure being a bunch of chicken****s about it.” Clearly he was still upset over the whole business, feeling put-upon by his experiences with the military, and feeling anxious that the wrong people not know of his possession of the material. When Croft asked Brazel exactly where he had found the foil, Brazel said, “I got it where they vacuumed the ground.” He went on to say that the military brought heavy equipment out to the spot (which we now call the debris field) and literally vacuumed a five-hundred-foot radius of land so clear that there was almost not a weed or a rock remaining. (This account corroborates other witness descriptions of the army’s cleanup.) Brazel said that what little he was able to see of the army’s activities he had to watch from a distance, as he was not allowed close up. “They’d threaten your life,” he said, according to Croft’s memory of the conversation… I asked Mr. Croft what happened to the metal foil after they had shot at it, and he said that Brazel simply put it back in his truck. Needless to say, one has to wonder what ever happened to this piece of material from another world. At any rate, thanks to witness Philip Croft, we now know more about the aftermath of the Roswell incident. Mr. Croft told me that on the few occasions over the years when he mentioned this experience to acquaintances, they only laughed at him. As a UFO investigator I assured him that I, for one, am certainly not inclined to laugh. Obviously what he saw was not readily explainable in any mundane terms. When I asked him if I might use his real name, he said, “No, I think all this stuff is still real sensitive.” And how right he is.

Phyllis McGuire

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/phyllismcguire.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Phyllis McGuire

(Phyllis MCGUIRE, Phyllis MAC GUIRE, Phyllis MACGUIRE, Phyllis WILCOX, Phyllis WILCOX MCGUIRE). |
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Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Phyllis McGuire is Sheriff George Wilcox’s daughter. The other daughter of Geroge Wilcox is Elizabeth Tulk.

Chaves County Sheriff George Wilcox was the first authority contacted by William Brazel after he discovered the unusual debris at the Foster ranch near Corona. Wilcox subsequently contacted the Roswell Army Air Field. Wilcox himself never referred to the event publicly.

Affidavits:

In the best of my knowledge there is no affidavit signed by Phyllis McGuire.

Interviews and public statements:

Under construction.

During an interview for a documentary concerning the incident, Phyllis McGuire said, from father, sheriff George Wilcox:

“He had some material with him… which I did not know what it was. …He said that he had sent some deputies out there and they had seen some things. They had seen a corral that had some of the material in it and they had seen a large burnt spot on some grass about the size of a football field.”

During an interview for a documentary concerning the incident, Phyllis McGuire reported that her father, sheriff George Wilcox, sent his two deputys to investigate on location after William Brazel told of his finding of the debris and he informed Roswell Army Airfield She said that the deputys had difficulties finding the debris field, did no located it, but instead found a nearby area where the vegetation had been burnt and sand had seemingly melted as under an impact:

“They found … like after a bombing. A big circle that had been burnt.”

Phyllis McGuire told, according to Kevin D. Randle, that she remembered that two deputies of her father had found “an area of blackened ground” which looked like “something large and circular had touched down.”

Source:

  • “UFO Crash at Roswell ”, book by Kevin D. Randle and Donald R. Schmitt, pp 45-46, 1995.

In a letter of January 1996 to Robert Shirkey, according to Robert Shirkey, Phyllis McGuire wrote:

“When I read in the Roswell paper about the Flying Saucer being found, I went into his [her father sheriff George Wilcox’s] office to ask about it… I asked my father if he thought the information about the saucer was true. He said: ‘I don’t know why Brazell [sic] … would come all the way in here if there wasn’t something to it.’ He said Brazell had brought in some of the material to show, and that it looked like tinfoil, (a material like aluminum foil), but when you wadded this material up it would come right back to its original shape. He felt it was an important finding and he sent deputies out to investigate.”

Source:

  • “Roswell 1947: I Was There ”, book by Robert Shirkey, pp. 94-95, from a letter of January 1996, ISBN 096714650X, July, 1999.

Investigator Donald R. Schmitt has recorded an interview with Elizabeth Tulk:

  • “UFO Crash At Roswell: An Audio Documentary ”, Audio CD, by Donald R. Schmitt, Baraka Foundation.

This audio CD can be oredered at
http://theufostore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=T&Product_Code=ros-aud&Category_Code=roswell&Product_Count=22
or
http://www.pop-informationen.de/audio_documentary_9372876.htm
or
http://www.emusic.com/cd/10588/10588500.html?sourceid=00287001998538184534&bfinfo=cdpagealbum

Investigators notes and comments:

Under construction.

Robert I. Sarbacher

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/robertsarbacher.htm

Washington Institute of Technology

Oceanographic and Physical Sciences Dr. Robert I. Sarbacher
President and Chairman of Board November 29, 1983 Mr. William Steinman
15043 Rosalita Drive
La Mirada, California 90638 Dear Mr. Steinman: I am sorry I have taken so long in answering your letters. However, I have moved my office and have had to make a number of extended trips. To answer your last question in your letter of October 14, 1983, there is no particular reason I feel I shouldn’t or couldn’t answer any and all of your questions. I am delighted to answer all of them to the best of my ability. You listed some of your questions in your letter of September 12th. I will attempt to answer them as you had listed them. 1. Relating to my own experience regarding recovered flying saucers, I had no association with any of the people involved in the recovery and have no knowledge regarding the dates of the recoveries. If I had I would send it to you. 2. Regarding verification that persons you list were involved, I can say only this: John von Neuman was definitely involved. Dr. Vannever Bush was definitely involved, and I think Dr. Robert Oppenheimer also. My association with the Research and Development Board under Doctor Compton during the Eisenhower administration was rather limited so that although I had been invited to participate in several discussions associated with the reported recoveries, I could not personally attend the meetings. I am sure that they would have asked Dr. von Braun and the others that you listed were probably asked and may or may not have attended. This is all I know for sure. 3. I did receive some official reports when I was in my office at the Pentagon but all of these were left there as the time we were never supposed to take them out of the office. 4. I do not recall receiving any photographs such as you request so I am not in a position to answer. 5. I have to make the same reply as on No. 4. I recall the interview with Dr. Brenner of the Canadian Embassy. I think the answers I gave him were the ones you listed. Naturally, I was more familiar with the subject matter under discussion, at that time. Actually I would have been able to give more specific answers had I attended the meetings concerning the subject. You must understand that I took this assignment as a private contribution. We were called “dollar-a-year men”. My first responsibility was the maintenance of my own business activity so that my participation was limited. About the only thing I remember at this time is that certain materials reported to have come from flying saucer crashes were extremely light and very tough. I am sure our laboratories analyzed them very carefully. There were reports that instruments or people operating these machines were also of very light weight, sufficient to withstand the tremendous deceleration and acceleration associated with their machinery. I remember in talking with some of the people at the office that I got the impression these “aliens” were constructed like certain insects we have observed on earth, wherein because of the low mass the inertial forces involved in operation of these instruments would be quite low. I still do not know why the high order of classification has been given and why the denial of the existence of these devices. I am sorry it has taken me so long to reply but I suggest you get in touch with the others who may be more directly involved in this program. Sincerely Yours,
Dr. Robert I. Sarbacher P.S. It occurs to me that Bush’s name is incorrect as you have it. Please check the spelling.

Robert A. Slusher

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/robertslusher.htm

[…] After my “Status Report V, UFO Crash/Retrievals: Is the Coverup Lid Lifting?” was published in the January 1989 issue of the MUFON UFO Journal, revitalizing interest in my research, I became privileged to learn of a new, firsthand source who appeared to have important information relating to the Roswell incident. Just Cause had earlier received a letter from this source, and after discussing its potential value with the editor, Barry Greenwood agreed to send me a copy and gave me the green light to follow up. On January 26, 1989, I was able to make contact with the source in a remote western state. To gain his trust, I promptly explained the confidential arrangement with Greenwood and provided my own credentials. In short time, “Tim” agreed to cooperate. Tim proved to have been a proud member of the only atomic bomb wing extant at the time, the 509th Bomb Group, stationed at Roswell Army Air Force Base in 1947. And as one of his fellow crew members reminded him on July 9th of that year, they were “making history” on their flight aboard a B-29, which they believed transported the deceased alien cadavers from the Roswell airbase in New Mexico to Carswell in Fort Worth, Texas. In consideration of the sensitivity of Tim’s position, I agreed to the terms he requested concerning the release of his information, which includes concealing certain details mostly pertaining to his professional career, including rank, assigned duty aboard the flight, and the identity of key personnel involved in his special mission. As one of the few dramatis personae of the Roswell story, Tim’s eyewitness information was of course of extreme interest to me personally and to those who support my endeavors. In the long run, however, it may prove to be of even more importance as a vital piece of evidence in any future congressional hearing or in the chronicles of a historian. For the sake of accuracy, then, Tim and I reviewed to the verge of boredom, piece by piece, every aspect of his role, his observations and speculations to the best of his memory, even grading key issues such as his recall of attendant personnel and duties aboard the flight into three categories: Positive, Probable and Uncertain.

Tim’s Account

We begin witth Tim’s original story, excerpted from his letter to Just Cause, as follows: “On this day our crew had not been on the flying roster. We had accomplished our period of ground school in the morning, then went to the skeet range after lunch. The Aircraft Commander had broken 48 targets, and I was next with 47 out of 50. “The sergeant in charge of the range asked us if we had heard about the “Flying Disk” that had crashed out in the desert. Twice more before leaving the skeet range we heard reports of a space ship with bodies inside that had been found on a ranch in the area. When the truck dropped us off at the squadron area most of the other crews had been released for the day. The operations officer told our captain to keep the crew together because he thought he had a flight for us. We expected this was a last minute test hop on a plane needed for the next day’s mission. I loved test hops, for on many of them the pilot would let me be the co-pilot and sometimes I would get to make a landing.

No Routine Flight

“We were sent out to preflight our own airplane; we knew then it was no test flight. The preflight of a B-29 was a lengthy operation, requiring a visual pressure check of each engine’s fuel system, plus many other details. An hour later we were told to taxi the plane to the “Pit,” a place where the atomic bomb was normally loaded. We were positioned so the front bomb-bay was directly over the pit, which was covered with a large tarp. But no atomic bomb was in the pit that afternoon. “When the canvas was removed by the loading crew, all we could see was a very large wooden box. We stood off to the side and were not allowed more than a glimpse of the loading process. The box was sitting on a platform of the type we often used to carry cargo on. Once the load was secured in the bomb-bay four military policemen went inside and took positions at each corner of the box. I think two of them were majors, and one a lieutenant. The fourth man was an NCO. “Three other officers of company and field grade were positioned in the forward and aft crew compartments. The officer crew members went to base operations for flight clearance and briefing. When they returned only the bombardier was allowed to go in the bomb-bay and check the security of the load. The engineer and I had no problem at all, and no ballast was required in the tail, so I guess now that it was less than 5000 pounds. “Once airborne we were told the destination was the AAFB at Ft. Worth, Texas. By now we were aware that this was no routine cargo mission. The rank and number of the M. P.’s were clues that we had something important on board. One of our officers speculated that it was the household goods of some high-ranking ground-pounder being transferred to Ft. Worth. This was a reasonable guess. “I do not remember connecting it with the “Flying Disk Crash” story until we were on the way back. We left most of the security people in Ft. Worth. I think only one, maybe two, came back with us. I do remember the strong lecture of this being a routine flight that we must not talk about. One of the crew, a very outspoken individual, said on the way home that we were now a part of history. He went on to say it was the disk and remains of the flight crew, because he had seen a man he recognized in the reception group. This man was a mortician by military specialty. “For weeks rumors were plentiful, and we were hard pressed to maintain the silence we had been ordered to keep.” If Tim’s flight indeed transported the bodies, and not additional debris from the wreckage, then his testimony fits well into the scenario that says his was the third mission from Roswell. To prove it, of course, we would need access to official records, if they still exist, which is doubtful, for obvious reasons. Despite the paucity of firsthand testimony from surviving personnel, I feel reasonably sure of “Pappy” Henderson’s flight of July 8, 1947, which transported the main “wreckage” in a B-29 (or possibly a C-54) to Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio. According to the testimony of Major Jesse Marcel, he had been bumped from this flight.

Jesse Marcel

Also according to Marcel, he flew to Carswell in a B-29 on July 8th. Notably, he referred to the cargo not as a crate, but as a “half B-29-ful” of fragments he had collected from the crash site on the Brazel ranch. Once at the airbase, his job was done. General Roger Ramey, in charge of the operations, released the story to the media that the downed saucer was actually a weather balloon, and ordered Marcel to return to Roswell, which he did the following day, July 9th. Of significance, Tim remembers Marcel’s involvement. To refresh his memory, he was sent a copy of the 509th Bomb Group’s 1947 yearbook. He said he recalls his (Marcel’s) presence on the scene, but is not sure where. “It’s possible,” said Tim, “that he was one of the officers to greet my plane at Carswell, but my guess is that he was on my return flight to Roswell.” Based on known information, Marcel was unaware of the retrieved bodies and would not have a need-to-know qualification to greet the plane. A sealed crate, however, would surely have aroused suspicion. Crucial, then, in coordinating the sequence of events, is the date of Tim’s flight. Understandably blurred by the passage of time, and without any official 509th records to substantiate such a secret mission, he was at first uncertain of the date. “One clue, for sure,” he said. “The weather that day was sunny and hot during a season known for its thunderstorms.” In a letter received in February, Tim entertained the notion that his flight might have been July 8 or 9, based on an illegible entry in a pocket diary that he had salvaged from his Roswell days. As it became increasingly important to fix a date, considering the impact of his revelations and the surfacing of new material (unknown to Tim), I called October 2, asking him to take another look at his diary. A tall request, indeed, in light that I knew he was in the midst of moving to a new residence, and I was told that it was already stored somewhere in a box. Then on October 5, Tim called. “I found the diary,” he announced. “It was the ninth. I found the dates of my flights, clearly circled on the calendar, inside the back cover, which backs up my log entries for July 4th, 9th, 26th, 28th and 29th.”

Log Entries

Following are Tim’s flight entries in his log for July, 1947: July 4,1947 DEH (CAA station designation for Roswell), Ship 6291. B-29. Formation flight cross country. Vicksburg, Little Rock, Tulsa, Amarillo and return. Holiday celebration. Flight time 9hrs., 55mins. July 9, 1947 DEH, Ship 7301. B-29. Cross country. Ft. Worth and return. Flight time 1 hr., 55 mins. The next 17 days, Tim said, he and crew were in special training school featuring courses in Russian language, Judo, hand-to-hand combat, etc. July 26, 1947 DEH, Ship 430? (last number illegible) B-29. Cross country Round Robin to Atlanta and return via Houston. 10 hrs., 20 mins. July 28, 1947 DEH, Ship 6291. B-29. Cross country radar bombing. Omaha, Kansas City, Houston and return. Flight time 11 hrs., 20 mins. July 29, 1947 DEH, Ship 6291. B-29. Formation over Utah, live bombing. Flight time 5 hrs., 45 mins. The key date: July 9, 1947. For one thing, it backs up the scenario that Marcel returned to Roswell on Tim’s flight. Other dramatic events on the 8th and 9th of July were linked to Marcel’s flight to Carswell. New evidence reveals that during this period, a special detachment of troops from Roswell found three alien bodies (maybe four) about two-and-a-half miles from the crash site on the Brazel ranch. While this expeditionary discovery was probably unknown to Marcel, a figure so important to our reconstructed scenario, the magnitude of its shock surely would have triggered a state of alarm at the highest levels of government in Washington. And we can assume that hasty and momentous decisions were made, at least one of which, the urge toward secrecy, haunts us still. In the short run, however, the exotic cadavers had to be protected, preserved, photographed and crated for shipment out of Roswell. By the afternoon of July 9, the bodies were ready for their shipment to Carswell. In my mind, Tim made that historic flight. “Everything about the fight was unusual,” said Tim. “So tight was security, we knew that the crate contained more than the general’s furniture.” It was made of wood, he said, and was unpainted and unmarked as though hastily constructed. Fitting snugly into the bomb-bay, it was approximately 5 feet high, four wide and fifteen long. According to my calculations, these dimensions would suitably accommodate three 4-foot tall bodies (or parts of bodies) placed in a lengthwise row. But beyond the mystery of the crate and the extraordinary security measures at Roswell and Carswell, the strongest factor in support of Tim’s belief that his plane carried the bodies is found in the words of a fellow crew member, the officer who recognized a former school chum, a mortician, among the contingent of greeters at Carswell. The names of the pilot, co-pilot and those of his crew members that he can recall are known to me, but Tim prefers, understandably at this time, that they not be published. Perhaps in the near future more can be revealed about them and their roles. Tim’s disclosures, based on the raw facts as he observed them, basically illustrate a military reaction to a UFO event. His information may seem circumstantial to the skeptic, but thought of in the context of the whole, as it links to the testimony of many other reliable witnesses, the case could stand up in any court of law. […]

Robert Lida

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/robertlida.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Robert Lida

(Robert LIDA, Wanda LIDA).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

I found no verified information about Robert Lida or Wanda Lida.

According to reserchers Thomas Carey and Donald Schmidt, Wanda Lida said her deceased husband Corporal Robert Lida had been working at the Roswell Army Air Force Base during the Roswell incident.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Robert or Wanda Lida.

Interviews and public statements:

There public statement by Robert or Wanda Lida.

Investigators notes and comments:

Thomas Carey and Donald Schmidt:

According to these authors, Wanda Lida said her deceased husband Corporal Robert Lida had told him that he had guarded the hangar and observed inside the wreck and small bodies, which were being prepared to be shipped.”

This was later republished on numerous websites and in other books about the Roswell incident.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-year Cover-up ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, Career Press, page 198, 2007.

Robert R. Porter

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/robertporter.htm

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is Robert R. Porter (2) My address is: [Retained] (3) I am (X) retired ( ) employed as: (4) In July 1947, I was a Master Sergeant in the U.S. Army Air Force, stationed at Roswell, New Mexico. I was a flight engineer. My job entailed taking care of the engines in flight, maintaining weight and balance, and I was responsible for fuel management. We mostly flew B-29s. (5) On this occasion, I was a member of the crew which flew parts of what we were told was a flying saucer to Fort Worth. The people on board included: Lt. Col. Payne Jennings, the Deputy Commander of the base; Lt. Col. Robert I. Barrowclough; Maj. Herb Wunderlich; and Maj. Jesse Marcel. Capt. William E. Anderson said it was from a flying saucer. After we arrived, the material was transferred to a B-25. I was told they were going to Wright Field in Dayton, Ohio. (6) I was involved in loading the B-29 with the material, which was wrapped in packages with wrapping paper. One of the pieces was triangle-shaped, about 2 1/2 feet across the bottom. The rest were in small packages, about the size of a shoe box. The brown paper was held with tape. (7) The material was extremely lightweight. When I picked it up, it was just like picking up an empty package. We loaded the triangle-shaped package and three shoe box-sized packages into the plane. All of the packages could have fit into the trunk of a car. (8) After we landed at Fort Worth, Col Jennings told us to take care of maintenance of the plane and that after a guard was posted, we could eat lunch. When we came back from lunch, they told us they had transferred the material to a B-25. They told us the material was a weather balloon, but I’m certain it wasn’t a weather balloon. I think the government should let the people know what’s going on. (9) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: Robert R. Porter June 7, 1991 Signature witnessed by:
Ruth N. Ford 6/7/91

Robert Shirkey

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/robertshirkey.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Robert Shirkey

(Robert SHIRKEY, Robert J. SHIRKEY). |
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Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Under construction.

Affidavits:

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is Robert Shirkey (2) My address is: [Retained for respect of privacy] (3) I am ( ) retired ( ) employed as: (4) In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air field with the rank of 1st Lieutenant. I served as the assistant flight safety officer and was assigned to base operations for the 509th Bomb Group. (5) During that period, the call came in to have a B-29 ready to go as soon as possible. Its destination was to be Fort Worth, on orders from the base commander, Col. Blanchard. I was in the Operations Office when Col. Blanchard arrived. He asked if the aircraft was ready. When he was told it was, Blanchard waved to somebody, and approximately five people came in the front door, down the hallway and on to the ramp to climb into the airplane, carrying parts of what I heard was the crashed flying saucer. (6) At this time, I asked Col. Blanchard to turn sideways so I could see what was going on. I saw them carrying what appeared to be pieces of metal; there was one piece that was 18 x 24 inches, brushed stainless steel in color. I also saw what was described by another witness as an I-beam and markings. (7) Several days later, a B-25 was scheduled to take something to Ft. Worth. This was the second flight during this period: the third was a B-29 piloted by Oliver W. “Pappy” Henderson directly to Wright-Patterson. (8) I learned later that a Sergeant and some airmen went to the crash site and swept up everything, including bodies. The bodies were laid out in Hangar 84. Henderson’s flight contained all that material. (9) All of those involved — the Sergeant of the Guards, all of the crewmen, and myself — were shipped out to different bases within two weeks. (10) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection. Signed: Robert Shirkey
30 April 1991 Signature witnessed by:
Lupe V. Sandoval

Note later added by Robert Shirkey to the above affidavit:

I have learned since making the statement (9) that, while I was aware of several people being “shipped out” on change of station, not everyone actually were that may have been involved with the incident aftermath.

Interviews and public statements:

Under construction.

Roswell Witnesses Interviewed
By Stephen Johnson
Houston Chronicle
stephen.johnson@chron.com

Robert Shirkey Interview:

509th Bomb Group operations officer Robert Shirkey first learned that something unusual was being flown to Fort Worth when he returned from lunch July 8, 1947 and wonders if his interest in it caused him to be transferred unexpectedly to a non-existent job days later.

“I entered the Operations building and asked the civilian clerk on duty what was going on and he said, `We just got an order from Col. Blanchard to have a B-29 go to Fort Worth.”

“I walked out towards the ramp on the south side of the building and watched the B-29 pull up by the building and shut its engines off.”

“I walked back in to (say) the plane was there and a voice behind me said, “Where’s my airplane?’ and it was Col. Blanchard who had come in through the front door. He stepped back into the hallway and waved at several people who were standing outside. They came into the front door and down the hallway and Blanchard stepped back into the doorway.”

“I said to him, `Colonel, turn sideways I want to see too.’ Of course he gave me his usual scowl and we stood belt buckle-to-belt buckle with our heads turned, watching these people go through the hallway carrying boxes of this material they picked up.”

“Maj. Marcel came along with an open cardboard box with several pieces of this aluminum-like material with one of the I-beams sticking up in the corner… with characters written on a portion of it. What the characters were I cannot recall at all.”

“Another gentleman in a civilian suit was walking along with a piece stuck under his arm like a poster board.”

“The group went out on the ramp and across to the airplane. Col. Blanchard and I watched them hand the boxes up through the wheel well and they climbed the ladder and shut the door.”

“At the same time a staff car came up to the back end of the airplane and was handing some boxes up to the rear door. It left and the aircraft started up its engines and taxied over to the runway and we stood there until we saw it leave the ground and start its turn toward Fort Worth.”

Shirkey said the debris that he saw loaded aboard the bomber looked nothing like weather balloons he saw launched from the weather building located near his own office at Roswell Army Airfield. Shortly after this event, Shirkey, who was awaiting promotion to captain and assignment to a new job at Roswell air base, shortly afterward received some startling news.

“Nine days later I got a telegram from the Eighth Air Force sending me to Clark Field in the Philippines to fill the request the 13th Air Force had made for a weights and balance officer.”

His orders, oddly enough, were signed by Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey, the Eighth Air Force commander who ordered Marcel to pose next to the debris that Marcel said was not what he had recovered. If Shirkey felt he was being shuffled away from Roswell unceremoniously he found himself receiving unusually grand treatment in the way he was to fly to Hamilton Field, Calif., on the way to the Far East. Deputy Base Commander Lt. Col. Payne Jennings, who flew the B-29 with the debris aboard to Fort Worth, informed Shirkey that he would personally fly him to California for his next assignment.

“He told me, `Take a few days off and next Sunday give me a call and I’ll take you to California.‘”

“A week or two later, Lt. Col. Payne Jennings - the deputy base commander - flew me as a first lieutenant to my next station in California before going overseas.”

“As we were flying along at altitude I asked him why are you making this flight colonel and he said, `Just to take you to your next base.‘”

“When was the last time you heard of a first lieutenant being taxied by a deputy base commander in a B-29 to his next station?”

When he arrived at Clark Field in the Philippines he had another surprise when he was informed that no such job vacancy existed. Shirkey was told the 13th Air Force had a weights and balance officer and didn’t need one. He would instead be made assistant operations officer in a photo reconnaissance unit. As far as Shirkey’s concerned, his inexplicable departure from Roswell “was part of the cover-up” of the saucer crash. Today, Shirkey teaches oil field safety techniques at a junior college branch of Eastern New Mexico University located on the grounds of the former Roswell Army Airfield. Nearby is the one-time operations center, where Shirkey worked. It is today used by an aviation firm.

ABQ Journal:

ABQ journal published the following:

One of the six New Mexicans directly affected by the crash of what was first called a UFO, then a weather balloon, shares memories of the event 50 years ago Robert Shirkey, 74

“They were carrying boxes of strange-looking material.”

First Lt. Shirkey was the assistant operations officer of the 509th Bomb Group in July.

“Suddenly we had this call from Col. Blanchard that said I want a B-29 parked in front of the Base Ops. I sent the crew down and they were ready for takeoff at about 2 o’clock. This was July 8. I came back from lunch that day and Col. Blanchard walked in behind me. He stepped back in the hallway and waved his hand at some people who were out front of the building. And they came through and down the hallway and walked out across the ramp.”

“They were carrying boxes of strange-looking material. One man had a piece, carrying under his arm right out in the open, about 16 by 22, coffee table sized. Maj. (Jesse) Marcel went through carrying this box with scraps of metal in it and one of the I-beams sticking up in the corner. Meanwhile a staff car had pulled up underneath the tail and they were handing some boxes up into the back door entrance.”

The plane lifted off about 2 p.m., and at 3 p.m. the Roswell Daily Record hit the streets with the story of the flying saucer. Shirkey teaches oilfield safety classes at the Roswell branch of Eastern New Mexico University, which has its campus across the street from the old air field.

Source for the above paragraphs:

  • “The Roswell accident 50th anniversary ”, article by the ABQ Journal, the electronic edition of the Albuquerque Journal newspaper, available as of September 13 2003 on www.abqjournal.com/roswell/roslived5.htm

Inzerview given to Stanton Friedman:

“A call came in to have a B-29 ready to go as soon as possible. Where to? Forth Worth, on Colonel Blanchard’s directive. [I was] in the Operations Office when Colonel Blanchard arrived and asked if the airplane was ready. When told it was, Blanchard waved to somebody, and approximately five people came in the front door, down the hallway, and onto the ramp to climb into the airplane, carrying parts of the crashed flying saucer. I got a very short glimpse, asked Blanchard to turn sideways so [I] could see too. Saw them carrying pieces of metal. They had one piece that was eighteen by twenty-four inches, brushed stainless steel in color.”

Source:

  • The above paragraph is circulating on the Internet.

Books:

Robert Shirkey wrote a book:

  • “Roswell 1947: I Was There ”, book by Robert J. Shirkey, ISBN 096714650X, July, 1999.

Note: the book is listed on amazon.com but is currently (September 2003) not available anymore. |
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Investigators notes and comments:

Patrick Gross:

A brief review of the book “I was there” by Robert Shirkey:

The book is a 154 pages paperback with large typeface and almost double interlining. This may appear to be quite a short narration, said critics, but on the other end, it is more than the usual affidavit or interviews.

A preface to the book by the now self-discredited witness Frank Kaufmann is much more worrying and suggests that, as an investigator, Shirkey may have bought Kaufmann’s tall tales.

Although it seems acceptable and factual that Robert Shirkey did stand at the Operations Desk of the Roswell Air Field with Colonel Blanchard while men were loading cardboard boxes of aluminum-looking metal pieces onto a B-29 aircraft, the book does not add much to the essence of his testimony as can be read in his affidavit and interviews. The main interest of the book is that it does confirm several aspects of the case, such as the several flights for the debris. Other aspects reported by Shirkey, such as the bodies and Hangar 84 were only told to him and he reports what he has been told by other.

Some critics have made the confusion there: on one side, there is Robert Shirkey the witness, telling what he allegedly witnessed. On the other side, Robert Shirkey started is own investigation, interviewing other witnesses, and thus told what other claimed to have seen. Once the distinction is understood, there is little sense left in the criticism that he did not see in person what other people reported to him, as an investigator.

Robert Shirkey, 2001.

The events directly witnessed by Robert Shirkey as narrated in his book are, in short, that on July 8, 1947, he went to duty to the Operations Building at Roswell army Air Field, and is met by his colleague Earle Williams. Williams tells him that Colonel Blanchard has ordered a B-29 to be readied for a flight to Carswell AFB, Fort Worth, Texas, at 02:00 P.M. When the plane is ready, Shirkey and Blanchard are watching several men loading cardboard boxes filled with aluminium looking debris into the plane. Then arrives Major Jesse A. Marcel with a box filled with little pieces of metal, different from the pieces loaded by the other men. Among these pieces he saw an I beam with markings but he could not observe the markings and determine what they were. Then a civilian boards the plane, holding a large metal piece under the arm. The large metal piece had torn egdes but its surface is flat without any traces of damages. Other debris are loaded directly from a jeep. The planes takes off as scheduled at 02:00 P.M. Later that day, he heard that there was a flying saucer that had been recovered, and he understood that what he has seen loaded to the B-29 was related debris.

Source:

The above is the source.

”Saucer Smear” newsletter:

A brief review of the book “I was there” by Robert Shirkey:

Next we have “I Was There”, which is another in the endless series of pro-Roswell books, this one written by a former Air Force Captain named Robert Shirkey. Frank Kaufmann, a well-known alleged Roswell witness, is a major contributor to this book, though his name is not on the cover. Amusingly, Shirkey decided not to use any material from famed Roswell witness Glenn Dennis. Dennis gave Shirkey the brush-off when asked to contribute, so Shirkey thereafter concluded that Dennis’ story of Nurse Naomi Marie Selff (?) was not provable, and therefore not worth using in the book anyway. Shirkey’s claim to fame is that, at the time of the Roswell Incident, he was Assistant Group Operations Officer for the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell Army Air Field. He allegedly watched the crash site debris being carried through the Operations Building & loaded onto a waiting B-29.

Source:

  • Saucer Smear” (“non-scheduled newsletter”), editor and “still supreme commander” James W. Moseley, contributor Karl T. Pflock, Volume 47, No. 6 July 15th, 2000.

Patrick Gross:

The unrecoverable telex:

Robert Shirkey has said how he has been oddly reassigned to another location after the incident. Under FOIA, Roswell investigator Dennis G. Balthaser proposed Shirkey to request a copy of the military teletype dated on or about 17 July, 1947, from 8th Air Force, Fort Worth, Texas, reassigning Lt. Robert Shirkey from Roswell Army Air Field to Clark Field, Philippines. He requested the copy by letter on March 17, 1999.

The Military Personnel Records center in St Louis, Missouri, finally answered to Balthaser on August 22, 2000 that this record has been among those lost in the fire that occurred there on July 12, 1973.

Balthaser commented in a letter to Robert Shirkey that “I really find it rather odd that many of the records needed on personnel assigned to Roswell in 1947 were amongst those lost in that fire.”

Source:

The above is the source.

Robin Adair

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/robinadair.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Robin Adair

(Robin ADAIR, Robin D. ADAIR). | |
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Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to researcher Donald Schmitt, Robin D. Adair was an Associated Press “wire” man based in Albuquerque, NM, who was sent by the news agency office in New York to report on the “recovered disc” incident near Roswell. There he met with reporter Jason Kellahin, also sent by the Associated Press.

AP told them to get there as fast as possible and they used a rented plane to land at the Roswell municipal airport. But before landing in Rowell, they flew above what Rowell investigators said was the crash site.

In 2017 could verify Robin D. Adair’s bio in the archive “Obituaries” of the Albuquerque Journal newspaper website:

Adair — Robin D. Adair was born on August 17, 1901, in Texas. Robin passed away on January 26, 1999, while in the Albuquerque Manor Nursing Home. Mr. Adair is survived by two sons, Robin D. Adair, Jr. living in Westminster, Colorado, and Richard Weldon Adair living in Boulder, Colorado. Mr. Adair was employed by the Associated Press for approximately 40 years, starting on 8-31-24. His last position was as Traffic Bureau Chief in the Albuquerque office of the AP. He retired from the AP on 9-1-66. […]

Source:

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Robin D. Adair.

Interviews and public statements:

I found no verbatim full interview or statements by Robin D. Adair.

Investigators notes and comments:

Kevin Randle:

Researcher Kevin Randle opened his “Roswell Encyclopedia” with pages about Robin D. Adair including context information and statements:

He said that he was in a plane to go to Roswell when he overflew a site surrounded by policemen, F.B.I. people, military officers. These people were waving at their plane to go away, they were afraid of being shot at so they did not dare to fly to close and too low and he could not take pictures of the site.

Adair said he did look at the site and that he “made out a lot of stuff”. It looked like a burned place, a gouge and tracks on the ground, and one could tell “something had been there.”

He said:

“You couldn’t see them too good from the air… apparently the way it cut into [the ground], whatever hit the ground, wasn’t wood or something soft. It looked like it was metal.”

He said he did not think it “skipped” as it hit the ground, but that it gave the impression of having come down flat “right straight down and straight back up when it left”.

Adair said he saw two other “sites”, one not very distinctive and the other plainer.

Landing at Roswell, he met with Jason Kellahin, and in the evening they went at the office of the Roswell Daily Record and sent photographs and the story written by Kellahin over the telephone lines.

Source:

  • “The Roswell Encyclopedia ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Captain, USA retired, USA, 2000.

Thomas Carey and Donald Schmitt:

The researchers say Robin Adair was a photographer with the Associated Press who received a phone call from the main office in New York on July 8, 1947, asking him to immediately go to Roswell “even if it meant leasing a plane” from the journey from El Paso, Texas.

Adair told the pilot of the plane to fly north toward Lincoln County before landing in Roswell so that he could get aerial shots.

Adair told these researchers that they could not get any pictures, that the place was surrounded by policemen and F.B.I people, and military officers waving them not to approach, so that they were afraid to be shot at and obeyed.

From the air, he saw many troops, vehicles and MP’s covering a large open field, with areas that appeared to have been scorched. Despite the altitude the plane was flying, he distinguished a “gouge” and noted that whatever hit the ground was not soft and was not wood, it gave the impression that it descended, hit the ground and then “ascended back into the air”.

Heading south to Roswell, he noted the terrain became more rugged and canyon-like, and that the pilot continued to look for military activity on the ground, said that he saw two other recovery sites, one that “wasn’t very distinct” and one that was more easily seen.

After landing at the Rowell municipal airstrip West of Roswell, Adairt joined Jason Kellahin, also sent by the New York office of the AP, and who came there by driving from Albuquerque.

In the evening the team went to the Roswell Daily Record office where Adair set up the equipment to transmit to Albuquerque by wire.

The two planned to interview “Mac” Brazel who was now rectracting his original statement that what he found was not a weather balloon. Adair took Brazel’s picture and it was sent by wire with the report by Kellahin. The Roswell Daily Record published a photo on July 9 showing Brazel, Adair and Kellahin, because the sending of Brazel’s photo by a telephone line was a world premiere.

Source:

  • “Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-year Cover-up ”, book by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, pp 63-64, 2007.

Kevin Randle:

This researcher published about Robin Adair and Jason Kellahin on his blog in 2008.

He says he interviewed Jason Kellahin in January, 1993, in his home in Santa Fe. The interview was videotaped.

He says ten months later he was interviewed by [skeptical] researcher Karl Pflock and his story had changed radically from that first interview. Pflock made him sign an affidavit that was [not] published in Karl’s book about Roswell.

From Kevin Randle’s interview we learn that Kellahin said about Adair:

Adair was with him, he had a camera and took some pictures of the stuff lying on the ground and of the rancher who was there. “Brazel was there and he [Adair] took his picture.”

To Pflock and for his affidavit Kellahin said: “Adair and I, Brazel, and the Army men then drove down to Roswell, traveling separately. Late that afternoon or early evening, we met at the offices of the Roswell Daily Record, the city’s afternoon newspaper. The military men waited on the sidewalk out front, while I and a Record reporter named Skeritt interviewed Brazel and Adair took his picture. Walter E. Whitmore, owner of KGFL, one of Roswell’s two radio stations, was also present during the interview. Whitmore did his best to maneuver Brazel away from the rest of the press.”

(Kellahin’s testimony to Pflock was essentially that the so called “crashed disc” was just a weather balloon.)

Kevin Randle discusses his interviews of Adair et Kellahin and criticism by Pflock and Klass about it, and notes that indeed, both men cannot be right about the circumstances and that he now suspects that neither are, essentially because once Kellahin and Adair arrived in Roswell, General Ramey had already introduced the balloon explanation. They cannot be both right also because one said it was a balloon and the other said it was a crashed spacecraft.

He specifies that he did not interview Robin Adair himself but worked from the notes and transcripts of the interview conducted by Don Schmitt.

Skeptic researcher “CDA” comments on Randle’s blog that “Kellahin’s testimony, and his affidavit, are both highly dubious. If he had been at the ranch his article on July 9 makes no mention of it. Instead we read that Brazel came to the newspaper office and gave his interview there.”

And: “It seems inconceivable that Kellahin would have omitted that he (and Adair) had been to the ranch and seen the various AF officers and police there (to say nothing of the pieces of the ‘flying disc’); i.e. the same people and ‘balloon’ he talks about 45 years later.”

Source:

Miscellaneous:

Below : this photograph of “Mac” Brazel on July 8, 1947, in Roswell, was said to have been taken by Robin Adair:

Below : in an unidentified newspaper of July 1947, appeared this picture of “Mac” Brazel; which was no doubt taken by Robin Adair, the caption mentioning its transmission by a phone line (“A.P. Wire-photo”):

Transcription of the article:

DISCOVERED DISC. — W. W. Brazell [sic], 48 years old rancher, living 76 miles northwest of Roswell, N.M., puffs on a cigar while he is asked about an object he discovered on ranch and turned over to Army intelligence. Rumors that the object was a real “flying disc” were explosed when the object turned out to be a weather balloon. (A.P. Wire-photo)

Sally Strickland Tadolini

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/sallystrickland.htm

AFFIDAVIT (1) My name is Sally Strickland Tadolini (2) My address is: [Confidential] (3) I am employed as: [Confidential] I am retired. (4) In July 1947, I was nine years old and lived with my parents, Lyman and Marian Strickland, and my two brothers on our ranch in Lincoln County, New Mexico. The neighboring ranch was the Foster place, which was managed by William W. (“Mac”) Brazel. His house was about 10 miles from ours. (5) I remember my parents talking about Mac Brazel finding a lot of unusual debris in one of his pastures and that there was a great deal of excitement about it among the neighbors. I recall the adults at first thought it was some kind of newfangled weather balloon, then deciding, no, there was no way it could be anything like that. I also recall that, later, the neighbors talked about how badly Mac Brazel had been treated, and that when he came back to the ranch, he never wanted to talk about what he had found. (6) A week or so after all the excitement, Mac’s son Bill, who was quite a bit older and married [added later: I am not certain that he was married at that time], stopped by our house. He had someone with him, and while I am not absolutely certain, I think it was his brother Vernon, who was my age. We — my father, brothers, myself, and possibly my mother — sat at the kitchen table with them. Bill showed us a piece of the thing his father had found, and he asked us not to say anything about it. (7) What Bill showed us was a piece of what I still think of as fabric. It was something like aluminum foil, something like satin, something like well-tanned leather in its toughness, yet it was not precisely like any one of these materials. While I do not recall this with certainty, I think the fabric measured about four by eight or ten inches. Its edges, which were smooth, were not exactly parallel, and its shape was roughly trapezoidal. It was about the thickness of very fine kidskin glove leather and a full metallic grayish silver, one side slightly darker than the other. I do not remember it having any design or embossing on it. (8) Bill passed it around, and we all felt of it. I did a lot of sewing, so the feel made a great impression on me. It felt like no fabric I have touched before or since. It was very silky or satiny, with the same texture on both sides. Yet when I crumpled it in my hands, the feel was like that you notice when you crumple a leather glove in your hand. When it was released, it sprang back into its original shape, quickly flattening out with no wrinkles. I did this several times, as did the others. I remember some of the others stretching it between their hands and “popping” it, but I do not think anyone tried to cut or tear it. 9/27/93

Sappho Henderson

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/sapphohenderson.htm

Roswell

CASE 10) The crash and recovery of an “alien” object near Roswell, New Mexico in July 1947, so well documented by researchers Bill Moore and Stan Friedman, and others, is a case that should cause skeptics to think twice before they impugn the existence of UFOs or the plausibility of the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Though most of Roswell’s firsthand sources were civilian, the overall evidence supporting this “nut-and-bolt” incident is massive. Of significance, ironically, is the report that news of the UFO’s discovery at the base slipped out in an “uncleared” press release by the PIO, 1st Lt. Walter Haut. Had it not been for a fast and effective coverup, the full story once in public domain could have rewritten what we know as history. Having been informed, perhaps mankind in his philosophical and geopolitical pursuits would have chosen a wiser course. Except for rumors, the truth about Roswell did not surface until 1978 when the late Jesse Marcel told an NBC radio newsman, Steve Tom in Chicago, about his official role as the intelligence officer assigned to the crash site to retrieve the scattered debris. On April 7, 1978, Tom called me and linked me up with Marcel in Houma, Louisiana, to get his story firsthand. This led to other calls to Marcel, and upon learning that we had served in the 5th Air Force, during WWII, in the same combat areas in Leyte, of the Phillipines, we developed a feeling of camaraderie and talked about meeting together for a UFO discussion in the near future. For the moment he confirmed that the debris he combed from the crash site on the Brazel ranch was not the remains of a balloon and that he had observed on a fragment of metal beam, a row of symbols looking like hieroglyphics. (See Status Report II, Case A-10, and the foregoing Kecksburg case describing hieroglyphic symbols.) Regretfully, I never got to meet Jesse Marcel as we had hoped to do. During 1978 when the floodgates opened for me with enormous C/R input I was working at full capacity and plans to go “here and there” were dropped. Bill Moore, however, concentrating on his book, The Roswell Incident, made the trip and interviewed Marcel. Following is one statement, in part, by Marcel that still had some questions unanswered: ”… that next afternoon, we loaded everything into a B-29 on orders from Colonel Blanchard and flew it all to Ft. Worth. I was scheduled to fly it all the way to Wright Field in Ohio, but when we got to Carswell at Ft. Worth, the general nixed it. He took control at this point, told the press it was all a weather balloon, and ordered me not to talk to the press under any circumstances. I was pulled off the flight and someone else was assigned to fly the stuff up to Wright Field…“. My Status Reports do pay off. Thanks to one reader, John August, in Hawaii, I got the “missing link” referred to by Marcel as the officer who flew the B-29 with the Roswell remains to Wright Field. Following up his initial phone call with the news Labor Day 1988, August wrote, in part, the following: “Confirmation of the Roswell crash reached me through a Maui resident who claimed that her father, Captain O.W. Henderson, flew the retrieved spaceship from Roswell to Wright Field on a B-29. According to Henderson’s wife, who was reached by phone, a news officer reported the incident but it was quickly quieted down. On February 17, 1981 the story appeared in the tabloid Globe and Henderson admitted to his wife and daughter that the story was true. The crew, she said, were little people with exceptionally large heads … At the time Henderson was stationed with the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell. It was an elite group for which all involved required high-security clearances. Besides being a highly decorated pilot during WWII, with over 30 combat missions, Henderson was in charge of the movement of all passengers and freight transported by air for organizations participating in the atomic bomb tests and the Manhattan Project…” Enclosed, as a result of August’s attentive spadework, were copies of photos showing Captain Henderson and flight crew and a letter of commendation for an “excellent job accomplished” from Carl Spaatz, Commanding General, AAF, forwarded to Colonel William Blanchard, Commander, 509th, etc. For verification, August footnoted his letter with Mrs. Henderson’s address and phone number. Calling her October 1, 1988 I explained my work; asked many questions to which she cordially responded and got approval to publish her name in this report, minus address. She said that her husband, known as “Pappy” among his buddies, passed away in 1986 and stated unequivocally that he flew the B-29 with the Roswell wreckage, to Wright field and kept the secret faithfully until 1981. She remembers his comment, “I’ve been dying to tell you for years, but couldn’t. It was top secret.” When I asked Mrs. Henderson if he had ever described the object he transported, she said he told her “it was strange,” avoiding details. Avoiding details, it seems goes with the business of covert work if one must talk at all. […]. […]

Stephen Lovekin

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/stephenlovekin.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Stephen Lovekin

(Stephen LOVEKIN). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

The Disclosure Project website indicates that Brigadier General Lovekin entered the military in 1958 and joined the White House Army Signaling Agency in May 1959, serving briefly in both the Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations until August of 1961. He had worked as a trained cryptologist with a Top Secret security clearance in the Pentagon during President Eisenhower’s White House term during the ’50s, and was the military aide who regularly briefed President Eisenhower on UFO evidence and developments.

Another Disclosure Project web page states that Lovekin is currently a practicing attorney in North Carolina and a Brigadier General in the Army National Guard with the JAG division (Judge Advocate General).

Stephen Lovekin is one also one of a group of witnesses affiliated with Steven Greer’s Disclosure Project designed to get the US government to disclose further information on the UFO phenomenon.

He said in 1997: “This [UFOs and the UFO secrecy] is a subject that can either bore you to death or shock you to death or absolutely leave you speechless.”

Kevin Randle a noté qu’il avit bien un grade de Brigadier Général, mais pas dans l’Armée, dans le State Guard of North Carolina Association, qui est une association civile composée de colontaires.

Kevin Randle noted that he did have a rank of Brigadier General, not in the Army, but in the State Guard of North Carolina Association, which is a civilian association made up of volonteers.

Affidavits:

None exist to my knowledge.

Interviews and public statements:

The following excerpts are from Lovekin’s Disclosure Project testimony that can be seen or heard on the Internet, including video recording and transcript. On May 9, 2001, in the Disclosure Project National Press Club conference, recorded in video, he told:

“Colonel Holomon brought out a piece of what appeared to be metallic debris. He explained that this was material that had come from a New Mexico crash in 1947 of an extraterrestrial craft. I got an opportunity to travel with the President [Eisenhower]. He was very, very interested in what made [the UFOs] go. But Eisenhower got sold out. He realized that the [study of these technologies] was not going to be in the best hands. That was a real concern. “What happened was that Eisenhower got sold out. Without him knowing it, he lost control of what was going on with the entire UFO situation. In his last address to the nation, I think he was telling us that the Military Industrial Complex would stick you in the back if you were not totally vigilant. And, I think that he felt like he had not been vigilant. I think he felt like he trusted too many people. And, Eisenhower was a trusting man. He was a good man. And I think that he realized that all of a sudden this matter is going into the control of corporations that could very well act to the detriment of this country.” “This frustration, from what I can remember, went on for months. He realized that he was losing control of the UFO subject. He realized that the phenomenon or whatever it was that we were faced with was not going to be in the best hands. As far as I can remember, that was the expression that was used, “It is not going to be in the best hands.” That was a real concern. And so it has turned out to be…”

He said that during briefings at Pentagon, an officer spoke to him:

“He did not describe what the bodies looked like, although they did discuss the fact that there were bodies, extraterrestrial bodies, yes, there were either 3 or 5, and they didn’t even know at that point because some of the information that they had gotten apparently was incomplete But 3 or 5 stands out in my mind as a number that were taken. One was alive, partially alive, at the time that this happened, and I do not know what may have happened to him after that.”

He said that during a meeting discussing Project Blue Book materials:

“We were in the basement of the Pentagon. And in those days, that was in 1959, there was a tremendous amount of security there in the basement of the Pentagon, and anybody who has worked there knows what I am talking about.” “I learned a lot about Project Blue Book. Blue Book was discussed quite openly in the office. Sections of Blue Book were opened for discussion. And then there were other matters as well that were brought to our attention. One afternoon when we were just about ready to finish training, it was 3:30, maybe a quarter to four in the afternoon, Colonel Hollobard [Hollogard or Holloberg] brought out a piece of what appeared to be metallic. It was a metallic piece of … it looked like a yardstick. It had deciphering … it had inscriptions on it. He did describe them as being symbols of instruction. And that’s as far as he would go. But he did infer that the instructions, whatever they might have been, were something that was important enough for the military to keep working on on a constant basis.” “It seemed giant-like when I saw it because it was the first time I had ever seen anything like this before. And all eyes were just peeled on that particular thing. And when he told us what it was, it was frightening, it was eery there. You could have heard a pin drop in the room when it was first mentioned.” “He said it had been taken from one of the craft that had crashed in New Mexico. It had been taken from a box of materials that the military was working on. They didn’t use the word reverse engineering at that time, but it was something similar to the reverse engineering they felt like they needed to work on and that it was going to take years to do this.” “What they were trying to say was, “Look, we have this physical evidence to go along with what you have seen in Bluebook; we have now been able to get our hands on and show you this material” and that is what he did. He went on to further explain that this was the material that had come from a New Mexico crash in 1947 of an extraterrestrial craft and that was discussed at length.”

He discussed the topic of secrecy, intimidation and death threats:

“There were strict regulations involving anything had to do with the reporting of a UFO or talking about a UFO. If you wanted to ruin your career… it was made clear to us that if you wanted to mess up your career, the way you could do it the fastest was to talk about UFOs, that we were being groomed for Top Secret and above, and that we certainly would not be cleared for any kind of confidential material should this be released.” “It had been discussed with me on numerous occasions. [We] talked about what could happen to me militarily and what could happen to me even if I discussed this as a civilian. I would say that the government has done as good a job enforcing secrecy through the installation of abject fear as they have done with anything within the memory of modern man. I really believe they have done a job.” “[One older officer] discussed with me what possibly could happen should there be a revelation. He was talking about being erased. And I said, “Man, what do you mean erased?” And he said, “Yes, you will be erased.” And I said, “How do you know all this, or something to that effect? And he said, “I know.” “He said those threats have been made and carried out. He said those threats started way back in 1947. The Army Air Force was given absolute control over how to handle this, this being the biggest security situation that this country has ever dealt with. And there have been some erasures.” “I don’t care what kind of a person you are. I don’t care how strong or courageous you are. It would be a very fearful situation because from what Matt [this older officer], said, ‘They’ll go after not only you, they’ll go after your family.’ Now those were his words.” “And, so I can only say that the reason that they have managed to keep it under wraps for so long is through fear. They are very selective about how they pull someone out to make an example of. And I know that that has been done.” “As I see it, when you propagate a lie and propagate a fear of the truth, you put yourself in a very vulnerable position. And you can’t create anything positive through fear. Fear only degenerates the human soul and the human psyche, the human mind if you will.” “All I know is that he was very convincing when he said this. And he was in a position to know. He was much older than I. He had been involved with the CIA and then the DIA both. Maybe he wasn’t DIA, but he was involved with the CIA. And so he knew what he was talking about. He wasn’t just kidding.”

Thomas J. Dubose

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/thomasdubose.htm

BRIGADIER GENERAL THOMAS J. DU BOSE Died February 24,1992 Thomas Jefferson Du Bose was born in 1902 in San Antonio, Texas. He graduated from Central High School, Oklahoma City, in 1922 and attended the University of Oklahoma from 1923 until 1924. In 1925 he entered the U.S. Military Academy and graduated from West Point June 13, 1929. In September 1929, Second Lieutenant Du Bose entered primary flying school at March Field, Calif. He later graduated from the Advanced Flying School at Kelly Field, Texas and was transferred to the Army Air Corps March 14, 1931. He served as flight instructor at Kelly Field until June 1931 when he joined the 3rd Pursuit Squadron at Clark Field, Philippine Islands. In 1934 First Lieutenant Du Bose returned to Kelly Field as a flight instructor. He was later promoted in June 1939 to captain. The next year Captain Du Bose became director of training at Moffett Field, Calf., and was promoted. Major Du Bose assumed like responsibilities as director of training at Merced, Calif. in October 1941. While serving there he was elevated to the rank of lieutenant colonel and a year later he was appointed chief of Flying Training Section at Headquarters U.S. Army Air Forces with the rank of full colonel. Colonel Du Bose served as chief of the Air Crew Training Division from March to December 1943, when he was appointed deputy to the assistant chief of air staff for training. Colonel Du Bose assumed command of the 316th Bomb Wing at Colorado Springs, Colo., in December 1944. The following July he took that wing to the Asiatic-Pacific theater of operations. In January 1946 he was named assistant chief of staff for plans of the Pacific Air Command at Manila, Philippine Islands. In June 1946 Colonel Du Bose became deputy assistant chief of staff for operations of Strategic Air Command at Bolling Field, Washington, D.C. From August to October 1946 he commanded the advance headquarters echelon of Strategic Air Command at Colorado Springs, Colo. He was then assigned to the 8th Air Force at Forth Worth, Texas with which he served successively as assistant chief of staff for personnel, chief of staff and deputy commander. In February 1948 Colonel Du Bose was named deputy commander of Air Task Group 7.4, the Air Force part of Joint Task Force 7 which constructed a proving ground for the Atomic Energy Commission at Eniwetok and later assisted the Atomic Energy Commission in the conduct of the first series of tests of atomic weapons. In May 1948 after his return to the United States, he rejoined the 8th Air Force as chief of staff. Colonel Du Bose later entered the National War College in August 1948 and graduated in June 1949. Two months later Colonel Du Bose assumed command of the 1602nd Air Transport Wing at Wiesbaden, Germany. On Aug. 13, 1952 Colonel Du Bose returned to the United States and assumed command of the Air Rescue Service at Washington, D.C. Four days later Aug. 17, 1952, he was promoted to the rank of brigadier general. General Du Bose, a rated command pilot since 1942, also is a rated combat observer and an aircraft observer. INTERESTS A former tennis and squash player, General Du Bose is an avid sports enthusiast. This enthusiasm is combined with his active photographic hobby. Among his many sports friends, Mr. Leo Durocher is perhaps the best known. They trace their friendship from 1945. DECORATIONS AND MEDALS American Defense Service Medal
American Campaign Medal
Legion of Merit
Asiastic-Pacific Campaign Medal
Army of Occupation Medal (Japan)
Bronze Star
World War II Victory Medal
Army of Occupation Medal (Germany)
National Defense Service Medal
European-African Middle Eastern Campaign Medal OPINIONS, TASTES AND EVALUATIONS General Du Bose is an enthusiast for Mexican style foods, or as he put it “anything hot.” He is an amateur cook, having learned the art when he became interested in cooking during his tour of duty in Texas. His tastes in reading are historical novels or actual historical documents. His personal philosophy of life, “live and let live,” particularly will suits him as commander of a humanitarian organization that has as its motto “That Others May Live.” General Du Bose stresses loyalty and honesty - he emphasizes this and demands it of all who associate with him. “Of all the generals I know, he is by far the fairest and most appreciative of your work.” This was said by one of his staff officers recently about General Du Bose. A colonel on his staff also recently stated, “the general tells you what he wants and then let’s you do it without interference.” CIVIC AND RELIGIOUS ACTIVITIES Member, Military Order, World War Member, American legion Post I, Paris, France.

Tommy Tyree

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/tommytyree.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Tommy Tyree

(Tommy TYREE).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

According to Roswell incident researchers, Tommy Tyree was from the area of Corona, New Mexico, and sometimes worked as ranch help for rancher William “Mack” Brazel.

I found no other biography information about him.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Tommy Tyree.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no verbatim or public statement Tommy Tyree.

Investigators notes and comments:

“The Wanderling”:

A mostly minor player that was brought forward sometime later in the overall scheme of things was a young man by the name of Tommy Tyree. In Roswell lore Tyree is usually associated with four aspects of the incident, each one bigger than the other, but none of them taken together or separately ranking very high up as being definitively earth-shaking. For one he shows up briefly in a comment by Roswell investigator and author Kevin Randle that goes something like:

“Tommy Tyree told us that during the Second World War an aircraft had crashed in the area and the teenagers from Corona knew where it had happened though the military had wanted to keep the site a secret.”

There is a second brief mention of Tyree that shows up a lot --- but, for some reason, without much needed follow through. It seems that as late as August of 1947, one month after the crash and long after all of the various military contingents left, Tyree and Brazel noticed a piece of wreckage in the water at the bottom of a sinkhole and that neither tried to retrieve it. Third, is his confirmation of the size, and to later investigators, the location of the debris field. And fourth, the following below, that shows up on a regular basis in a variety of forms, presentations, and formats, AND the number one reason Tyree is most noted for:

“Tommy Tyree, a ranch-hand that worked on and off for Brazel AFTER the crash, is on record as saying that Brazel complained to him regularly over and over --- and to others as well it has been reported --- how the day he found the material scattered all over the ranch he had been forced to circle his sheep a mile or more around the area to water because they refused to cross the debris field. It doesn’t make sense, nor is it likely given the average temperature in Corona is 87 degrees and rising in June, that Brazel would leave material scattered all over his ranch from mid-June to early July that frightened his fully wool-covered sheep so much they wouldn’t even go to water on their own, but had to be physically driven just to get a drink. Not only would he be highly remiss in his duties, he would also be putting his livelihood as well as the sheep’s lives in danger.”

I met Tyree twice. Once before the crash, once after the crash. The first time I met Tyree my uncle and I were on our way to Fort Sumner to see the gravesite of Billy the Kid. We were in the general area for a couple of reasons, the main being that exactly three years before I had been a passenger on the Santa Fe Chief westbound from Chicago to Los Angeles. Around midnight of July 3, 1944, between Flagstaff, Arizona and Williams, on a high speed downhill run and behind schedule, the Chief’s locomotive, bearing the Santa Fe road number #3774 hit a marked 55 mph speed limit curve at over 90 MPH, with the locomotive derailing and sliding in the dirt on it’s side off the tracks for well over 500 feet before coming to a stop. The rest of the 14 car train ended up in various stages of derailment and wreckage on and off the track, some cars remaining upright with two actually staying on the tracks undamaged. The fireman and three passengers were killed. 113 passengers along with 13 train employees injured, among them the severely injured engineer. My uncle and I had stopped at the location of the wreck to pay thanks to my survival and pay homage to those injured and the deceased.

After leaving the site where the train had derailed some three years before, but before reaching Fort Sumner we stopped in Corona to get some water for the truck as it had overheated because of a broken or loose fanbelt. While waiting for the truck to cool down, with some time to spare, we sat in the shade drinking a couple of iced cold sodas. In the process, with the hood up and man and boy possibly stranded, a number of locals stopped by to see if everything was OK. My uncle, knowing a few people in the general Corona area dropped a few names and before you knew it, everybody was the best of friends. In a friendly general conversation sort of way they asked where we were headed and how the trip was going. My uncle told them we had visited Elden Pueblo where a rare meteorite had been buried by prehistoric Native Americans in a ritual style then to Meteor Crater and were now on our way to Fort Sumner to see Billy the Kid’s gravesite.

Most of the people we talked to that day were what I would call adults. However, in those days, anybody twice my age at 19 or 20 years old was “old” or a “grown up,” although to adults, say my uncle’s age at the time, it wasn’t unusual for 20 year olds to still be cast in a “kid” catagory --- especially in conversations being carried out between older adults. Mostly because of that, a young man who was, as I look back now, in his late teens or possibly maybe 20, turned his attention in conversation to me. He told me that in a couple of weeks he was going to go to work on a nearby ranch. He also told me, connecting the story to Billy the Kid --- in that I was on my way to visit the Kid’s gravesite --- that Sheriff Pat Garrett, the man who killed Billy the Kid in 1881 was shot and killed in 1908 by the uncle of the ranch foreman who hired him. The ranch foreman, actually a lease holder, was William W. Mac Mack Brazel, the man that first discovered the material spread all over the Foster ranch he leased, that would become, in later years, famous in Roswell lore as the debris field. The man who killed Garrett, Jesse Wayne Brazel, was the brother of Mac Brazel’s father.(see) The young man who told the Billy the Kid story was Tommy Tyree, although at the time I didn’t know such was the case. I only learned who he was days later when the two of us met for a second time on a hill above the debris field.

Within days of Brazel’s discovery, but before any military presence had the wherewithal to seal off the area to outsiders, my uncle, with me tagging along, accessed the debris field --- as did apparently a number of other people. One of those people, although he isn’t known for having done so, was Tommy Tyree.

[…]

The morning I met Tyree, my uncle, leaving me in our secure spot at the hay shelter, departed before dawn to be on the debris field at sunrise and did not return until ten or so. Sometime before his return, needing to dump, I walked some distance down the hill from where we had been concealing ourselves to an outgrowth area of taller underbrush and did my business. Just as I was about to go back I heard a slow moving vehicle grinding away transversely across the hill toward where I was. I layed flat in the brush as an Army 3/4 ton truck passed between me and the area where my uncle and I had been holing up. I heard a noise in the bushes and just as I was about to turn around someone pushed me back down from behind and put their hand over my mouth. It was Tyree. Then I saw why. Coming up some distance behind the truck and following in it’s tracks were four armed soldiers on foot, basically just bullshitting and route-stepping their way along the hill. Had I stood up or walked out of the underbrush I would have run right into them. He had hobbled his horse some distance back in some wadi and was on his way to meet a couple of buddies hoping to scope out the debris field when, like me, he heard the vehicle. It was just by coincidence he stumbled across me. We stayed there for awhile, until we felt it was safe. I thanked him for saving my life, we shook hands, he told me his name was Tommy Tyree, then we went our separate ways, never to see each other again.

A few paragraphs back I mention the four main things Tyree is known for relative to the Roswell incident. The one most cited is the one about him reporting that Brazel needed to drive his sheep around the debris field to get to water because, as according to Tyree, the sheep would not cross the area. Interesting enough, two of the lesser things about Tyree and Roswell are interelated or interconnected to each other in a bigger, more macabre sort of way. The plane crash in 1941 near Corona he talks about actually went down near the now-not-there onetime community of Lon. Lon was abandoned in the 40s and all that remains now of a onetime general store, a two-room school house, and a few other buildings that existed in 1943 is just the barely discernable outline of the adobe walls of the school house.(see) Near where Lon used to be is a crudely made headstone put up by a woman that lived in the area at the time of the plane crash. The headstone reads “5 U.S. Boys” refering to the five crew members on the doomed flight. Her grandson writes:

“My grandma and grandpa, along with their kids and grand kids, began to find body parts scattered over a large area that the military had missed. One cousin, who would have been about ten at the time, says he still has vivid memories of finding a portion of a leg. The family decided the respectful thing to do was to give the men a proper burial in the family cemetery. My grandmother inscribed the marker.”

The second of the lesser things Tyree is known about, that I mentioned above, is that in August of 1947, one month after the crash and long after the military folk left, Tyree and Brazel spotted a piece of wreckage in the water at the bottom of a sinkhole and that neither tried to retrieve it. Now, all you hear about is how the military scoured every square millimeter of the debris field picking up pieces of the alleged saucer. Although I am not in agreement with it, it has even been reported that houses were searched, floors torn up, and people intimidated by authorities searching for more pieces. Yet, here is a piece sitting in plain sight in a sinkhole a month after the crash, apparently overlooked --- that Tyree or Brazel wouldn’t even get off their horses to retrieve. Six years before the military wasn’t even able retrieve all the body parts of the crew of a downed aircraft, no wonder pieces of the Roswell object could still be found in a sinkhole one month later. What happened to that piece is unknown.

Source:

David Rudiak:

This researhcher indicates that Tommy Tyree was a ranch-hand hired by Mack Brazel soon after the incident, who said sheep detoured a mile around debris field.

He said that Randle and Schmitt indicated that Tyree said that Brazel had been annoyed because the material formed a barrier that the sheep refused to cross. Brazel had to drive them around the debris field to get them to water.

Source:

  • “Descriptions of Roswell Crash Debris by Civilian and Military Witnesses ”, electronic document compiled by David Rudiak, updated November, 2002.

Sci-Fi Channel:

The book says that in August 1947, after a rainfall near the debris field, Mack Brazel and a young ranch hand, Tommy Tyree, spotted a piece of debris in a sinkhole; which they lefte here, moving on.

Source:

  • “The Roswell Dig Diaries ”, book, by the SCI FI Channel, Simon and Schuster publishers, 2010.

Tim Printy:

The last person to talk about concerning this portion of the Roswell “story” is a man by the name of Tommy Tyree. He started working at the ranch after the incident and had spoken to Mac Brazel many times. At one point, he told people that Mac said it was a Japanese Balloon bomb. However, when Schmitt and Randle showed up for the interview, they state this story changed and he felt Brazel found something unusual. Tyree does not explain any more than that but there is no mention of a huge gouge by Tyree. All Tyree mentions is that one day, he and Brazel saw a piece in a hole but did not bother to pick it up because Brazel did not want to deal with that matter anymore. All Tyree does is confirm that some metal like debris was still sitting around the ranch and that there was no gouge in the earth.

Source:

Note: Tim Printy is a “skeptical” researcher, advocating that the Roswell incident is not the crash of an alien “saucer” and generally, thy all UFO sighting reports are best explained by misinterpretations and hoaxes.

Kevin Randle:

This researcher says that Tommy Tyree was an occasional ranch hand of Mack Brazel and said he has seen a piece of the debris, but did not retrieve it. He was riding with Mack Brazel when they looked into a sink hole and there was a shiny bit of the debris floating on the water at the bottom. It was too far down for them to get to, so Tyree just looked at it.

Source:

  • “Whe UFOs fall from the sky ”, book by Kevin Randle, New Page books, 2010.

Randle says Tommy Tyree was interviewed by himself and Donald Schmitt in Corona on August 12, 1989, and they learned that Tyree was not exactly a ranch hand for Mack Brazel but worked with him on occasion, who had not seen the debris field before it was cleaned but had heard Brazel complain about it.

Tyree also said that Brazel had told him that the debris was so light that it stirred in the wind, but so strong that pieces of it would not flex.

Source:

  • “Roswell in the 21st Century ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Speaking Volumes publishers, 2016.

Kevin Randle says that Tommy Tyree, who worked for Brazel, told him and Donald Schmitt of riding the range with Brazel when he pointed down into a sinkhole that had water in the bottom. Floating on it was a bit of debris.

He says they did not find the sinkhole, as Tyree did not know precisely where it had been, and the water would have been long gone and the hole probably filled in. But Tyree gave them directions out there and it was on the same bit of range as that shown to them by Bill Brazel.

He adds that when they did the site survey, they dug around the roots of plants that looked old enough to have been there when the crash happened, that they looked into animal burrows, hoping to find a scavenger that had found a bit of the debris, that they used metal detectors and even tried an aerial survey in a rented plane, and found no debris.

Source:

Additional information:

Kevin Randle also specified in 2006 on the “UFOudpates” mailing list that the reason the sheep would not cross the field had nothing to do with any “odor”. Tommy Tyree told him and Don Schmitt that the sheep refused to cross the debris field because of all the shiny metal and trash scattered around. Only the debris frightened them.

On the same list in 2002, he added that there also had been aircraft accident in the area: Tommy Tyree told Randle and Schmitt that during WWII an aircraft had crashed in the area and the teenagers from Corona knew where it had happened though the military had wanted to keep the site a secret.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 12, 2017First published.

Vernon Brazel

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/vernonbrazel.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Vernon Brazel

(Vernon BRAZEL, Vernon Richard BRAZEL, Vern BRAZEL). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Vernon Richard Brazel (July 31, 1938 - June 22, 1967) was the youngest child of “Mack” Brazel. He was aged 8, almost 9, at the time of the incident. He had resided - after the incident - at least in Virginia, and dies in California.

I found and checked the above information from non ufological sources, such as:

U.S. Social Security Administration, Death Master File, database (Alexandria, Virginia: National Technical Information Service).

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by Vernon Brazel.

Interviews and public statements:

There are none.

The 1947 Press:

Roswell Daily Chronicle, July 9, 1947:

[…]

Brazel related that on June 14 he and 8-year-old son, Vernon were about 7 or 8 miles from the ranch house of the J.B. Foster ranch, which he operates, when they came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up on rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks.

[…]

Source:

Investigators notes and comments:

Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt:

Mack’s youngest child, Vernon, was 7 years old at the time of the incident. Unfortunately, he disappeared under mysterious circumstances in 1960 and has never been heard of again. Another son, Paul, died in 1997. He was employed running a ranch in Texas for the same J. B. Foster that employed his father in 1947, but when interviewed said he had no direct knowledge of the events.

Source:

  • In: “Mack Brazel Reconsidered ”, article by Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt, in the International UFO Reporter (IUR), CUFOS bulletin, Winter 1999.

Note: his age was not 7 but 8 at the time of the incident, and he died in 1967, not 1960.

Kevin Randle:

This researcher said that in the early 1990s, the Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR), initiated a program to gather testimony and affidavits from Roswell witnesses. Bessie Brazel said in her affidavit that the Brazel family had a home in Tularosa, where she lived with her younger brother Vernon during the school year, and that they used to spend the summers on the Foster place with their father.

Bessie said that one or two days after her father found the debris field around July 4, 1947, she and him and Vernon rode by horse to the site to pick up the material. She says they used several feed sacks to collect the debris.

She said that on or two days later, several, maybe 15, military people came to the ranch, and one or two officers spoke with her father and her mother, while the rest of the Brazel family were waiting, and that none of the soldiers spoke with her or Vernon.

Source:

Note: see the affidavit by Bessie Brazel, and the affidavit by Sally Strickland.

Anthony Bragalia:

For many what was seen at Roswell cast a shadow the length of a lifetime. And for the two children who innocently happened on strange things fallen from the sky in 1947 that did not belong, their lifetimes were short. It is telling that the ‘first-on-the-scene’ witnesses to the unearthly crash materials were the ones who would say the very least. They were troubled by secrets that were held in their hearts and to their graves. The original and untainted witnesses were ranch manager Mac Brazel and two New Mexico boys, Dee Proctor and Vernon Brazel.

But suffer the children. And these two indeed suffered. Theirs is a story of silence and of suicide. It is a tortured tale of drink, divorce and dying young. It is an incredible account of stolen alien metal and of frightening threats to juveniles. And the brief but stunning confession of one of these Roswell child witnesses is related on the internet for the first time ever, here and now:

The Ranch Man’s Son: Vern Brazel

Mac Brazel managed a ranch that was owned by twin brothers H.S. “Henry” Foster and J.B. “Jasper” Foster. Vernon was Mac’s son. Vern was 8 years old in 1947. Vernon is very rarely mentioned in the Roswell UFO crash saga. In fact, Vern is only mentioned once (and fleetingly) in only one edition of one of Roswell’s two newspapers at the time and in none of the newspapers in the country that carried the story. Only the Roswell Daily Record’s July 9th 1947 issue mentions the ranch man’s son and states in part: “Brazel related… that he and his 8 year old son came across the large area of wreckage…”

That is all that has ever been written about Vernon Brazel. And no one ever got to talk to him because he left New Mexico as soon as he legally could. And no one could find Vern Brazel because he changed his name and moved from state to state. And no one will ever be able to talk to Vernon Brazel because he shot himself young with a handgun, instantly ending his life with a bullet to his head.

This author learned from Loretta Proctor (neighbor to Mac Brazel) in conversations about four years ago, that Vernon was a very close friend with her son Dee, who was also there at the discovery of the crash scene. Dee was seven and Vern was eight. Both were what she called “little ranchers” who helped Mac with chores on weekends and during summers. When I first mentioned Vern’s name to Loretta, however, she snapped: “What do you know about Vern?” Loretta, who had always before been very accommodating and pleasant, startled me with the way in which she wanted to know how I knew of Vern. I then realized the reason for her alarming firmness. Loretta explained that after the crash, Vern “had adjustment problems, a hard time with the other kids” and became the brunt of jokes about his Dad’s unusual find. He wanted to get out of the state as soon as he was of age, Loretta learned. The story followed him wherever he went. Loretta told me that Vernon wound up changing his name and “wanted to get as far away from his identity and this State as he possibly could. He used the last name of Tannehill or Tunnecliffe, I believe. Something like that.” Loretta was to find out that after a brief stint in the US Navy, Vernon lived in many places including Montana, California and Virginia. But as far as Loretta knew, Vern never returned to New Mexico, “he never wanted those memories.” Roswell’s “little secret” about their “little rancher” was about to be told when I asked Loretta, “What became of Vern?” Loretta hesitated and replied, “Vern took a pistol and killed himself. Shot in the head. He was only in his 20s.” Shocked, and hearing what I thought was a suppressed weep, I could only say to her, “We both know why.” Loretta did not reply.

I wanted to confirm as much as I could about this remarkable information imparted to me by Loretta. And in fact, I was able to ascertain through military records that Vernon Brazel was a shipmate of the USS Hassayampa at its homeport in Pearl Harbor. Through the Social Security Death Index, I found that both California and Virginia were given as the last state of residence and as the state where the death certificate was issued. And he did pass in his 20s. All of this Loretta Proctor had told me. I felt almost guilty fact-checking her. This is because the ranch woman who has outlived her beloved son -and is now nearly a century old- has always proven to be a woman of truth.

[…]

The two Roswell children who found the UFO crash site were the first human beings in history to lay eyes upon the Extraterrestrial and things not made on Earth. Both of them - Dee and Vern - never spoke publicly about the event for as long as they lived. One of them ran from researchers and one ran from life itself. Both had “issues” that seemed insurmountable following the crash event- and both died young , keeping a burden that ultimately proved too difficult for either to bear. In their deaths they remind me of another who was Roswell-involved. The Roswell Base Chaplain Hankerson told his children repeatedly and trance-like on his deathbed, “too much knowledge can be a very bad thing.”

Source:

  • In: “The Children Who Bore Witness to Roswell: Their Tragic Stories Finally Revealed ”, by Anthony Bragalia, “The Bragalia Files”, 2012.

James Bartley:

Later [after the incident], Mac’s son Vernon would abruptly leave home, abandon his car, move to another state, adopt a different name and marry a woman without telling her who he really was and where he had come from. Upon Vernon’s death, she tried to claim benefits and when she submitted his social security number it pulled up the name Vernon Brazel which was a complete mystery to her. For whatever reason, Vernon felt compelled to leave his family and everything behind and move to another state, assume a fake identity and never contact his family again.

Source:

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 13, 2017First published.

Vernon D. Zorn

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/vernonzorn.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Vernon D. Zorn

(Vernon D. ZORN, Vernon ZORN).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Vernon D. Zorn is said to have been a non-commissioned officer in charge of the Third Photo Unit at Roswell Army Air Field. He is liste on numerous web pages about the Rosweel incident as a “firsthand eyewitnesses to Roswell.”

A “Vernon D. Zorn” is listed as “Treasurer” in the “Journal of the Society of Photo-optical Instrumentation Engineers”, Volume 6, 1967. He is listed as a member of the St. Louis Chapter in the same journal in 1969.

Affidavits:

There was no affidavit by Vernon D. Zorn.

Interviews and public statements:

I found no public statement on the Roswell incident by Vernon D. Zorn.

Investigators notes and comments:

The NICAP website:

Zorn, Vernon D.

[…]

- Non-commissioned officer in charge of the Third Photo Unit at Roswell Army Air Field. He said no photos of the crash site were taken by his men.

[…]

Anthony Bragalia:

[…]

Earlier corroboration of these three accounts comes from a brief interview that was conducted with the Unit’s Operations Manager, Vernon Zorn. In 1991’s UFO Crash at Roswell by Kevin Randle and Don Schmidt, Zorn confirmed that “no photos of the crash site were taken by his men.”

[…]

My comment:

This is all very meager and of little significance one way or the other. Alas I found nothing more for now.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 27, 2017First published.

Walter Haut

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/walterhaut.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Walter Haut

(Walter HAUT, Lt. Walter HAUT, Walter G. HAUT, Lt. Walter G. HAUT). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Under construction.

Affidavits:

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is Walter Haut.

(2) My address is: [Confidential]

(3) I am retired.

(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air base, serving as the base Public Information Officer. At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth.

(5) Col. Blanchard told me to write a news release about the operation and to deliver it to both newspapers and the two radio stations in Roswell. He felt that he wanted the local media to have the first opportunity to have the story. I went first to KGFL, then to KSWS, then to the “Daily Record” and finally to the “Morning Dispatch.”

(6) The next day, I read in the newspaper that General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth has said the object was a weather balloon.

(7) I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is there any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken.

(8) In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey’s office was not the material he had recovered.

(9) I am convinced that the material recovered was some type of craft from outer space.

(10) I have not been paid or given or promised anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

[signed] Walter G. Haut

Signature witnessed by: 5-14-93 Max Littell. [signed]

Interviews and public statements:

Under construction.

News:

December 18, 2005

Lt. Walter Haut, Spokesman Who Announced Wreckage Of Flying Saucer In Roswell, Died At 83

By Associated Press

ALBUQUERQUE - The man made famous for issuing a news release that said a flying saucer landed in Roswell has died.

Army Lt. Walter Haut, a former spokesman for the Roswell Army Air Field, died Thursday in Roswell, his daughter, Julie Shuster, said. He was 83.

Haut listened closely on July 8, 1947 as base commander Col. William Blanchard dictated a news release about a recovered flying saucer and ordered Haut to issue it.

The Roswell Daily Record newspaper ran a bold headline July 9, 1947: “RAAF Captures Flying Saucer on Ranch in Roswell Region.”

The same day, a statement was released saying it was only a weather balloon.

“I guess they changed their mind,” Haut told The Associated Press in 1997.

Haut said he never was told exactly where the flying disc reported in his news release was found nor did he, himself, ever see a UFO.

But he remained a believer.

“There must have been something in the skies at that time,” he said. “There’s just too much evidence.”

Haut and two other men founded The International UFO Museum in 1991 where he was president until 1996. More than 2 1/2 million people have visited the museum since it opened in 1992, Shuster said.

It wasn’t until the late 1980s that Shuster said she and her sister learned about the flying saucer incident, not from their father but from a book.

“It was not a topic of conversation at the dinner table for anybody involved,” she said.

Haut, born June 3, 1922, in Chicago is survived by his two daughters, Shuster and Marabeth Fields of Roswell, three grandchildren and four great-grandchildren.

A viewing is scheduled Monday in Roswell at the LaGrone Funeral Home. Funeral services are set for 11 a.m. Tuesday at Trinity United Methodist.

Source:

  • Free New Mexican, of Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA.

The AP news release above also appeared with similar context in the newspapers Mainichi Daily News, Japan; The New Mexico Channel.com, New Mexico; KOB-TV, New Mexico; CNN International; The Indianapolis Star, USA; The Ottawa Sun, Canada, and others.

One Australian newspaper, Advertiser of Adelaide, found it appropriate to headline “UFO hoax man dies.”

Investigators notes and comments:

Under construction.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossDecember 19, 2005First published.

William Brainerd

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/williambrainerd.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

William Brainerd

(William BRAINERD). |
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Lawyer William Brainerd, Roswell’s mayor when the Roswell museum opened, never anticipated that it would become so popular so fast, but thinks the tourism is good for the city. Brainerd says he arrived in Roswell in 1953, and never heard a word about aliens or a UFO crash until a 1965 function for past commanders of the old Walker Army Air Field (a newer name of the Roswell Army Air Field).

Affidavits:

None exist to my knowledge.

Interviews and public statements:

According to an article by Roswell researchers Thomas J. Carey and Donald R. Schmitt for the Sci-Fi Channel web site in 2003, William Brainerd, the former mayor of Roswell told then that when Colonel William Blanchard returned to Roswell a few years after the event, Brainerd met him on some official event. He found himself sitting across from Blanchard at dinner, and he asked him about the 1947 incident. Blanchard’s only comment was that the wreckage was “The damnedest thing I ever saw.”

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 9, 2005First published.

William E. Anderson

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/williamanderson.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

William Anderson

(William ANDERSON, William E. ANDERSON).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

William E. Anderson is the name of a captain who was a crew member of the alleged “second flight” of the Roswell debris, to Wright Field via Fort Worth, on July 8, 1978.

He said that what they were transporting “was from a flying saucer”.

This is from the affidavit by Robert R. Porter, crewmember on this flight, on June 7, 1997, cited in many books such as:

  • “The Roswell report: fact versus fiction in the New Mexico desert ”, Diane publishing, United States Government Printing; 1st Printing edition, page 23, January 1995.
  • “Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-year Cover-up ”, Thomas J. Carey, Donald R. Schmitt, Career Press, page 113, 2007.
  • “Mammoth Books presents Aliens and Extra-Terrestrials ”, by Jon E. Lewis, Hachette UK publishers, 2012.

The name “William E. Anderson” matches with several military men, but here is all I found that is consistent with an Army Air Force officer for 1947:

I found in Sooner , a military magazine, for November 1943, page 11, an information saying that a Willian E. Anderson, and his twin Robert E. Anderson, from Hobart, Missouri, were promoted to the grade of corporal.

I found that a “Major William E. Anderson USAF” participated in the Vietnam war.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit by William E. Anderson.

Interviews and public statements:

I found no statements at all by William E. Anderson.

On the web:

In 2017 I found on the web a “copied/pasted” article, apparently lifted from a disappeared web age at http://ufocon.blogspot.fr, written by “A group of media guys” or “RRRGroup”, that said:

[…]

Researcher Kevin Randle provided to me the names of some of the individuals that he could confirm were part of “Squadron A” at RAAF in 1947 as base fire department personnel. Randle has access to the 1947 RAAF Base Yearbook and other resources to help with such confirmation. The individuals Randle identified that he could find were Lt. Col. William H. Unger, Major Wilson L. Jones and Captain William E. Anderson.

It was this last name - Captain William E. Anderson - that seemed vaguely familiar to me, as though I may have read it before in relation to Roswell. For many months I thought about this. Then entirely by coincidence - when recently re-reading the US Air Force’s debunking 1995 “The Roswell Report” authored by Col. Richard Weaver- I found where I had seen the name William E. Anderson before. Incredibly, there in the very Air Force Roswell report that I was reading (on page 23) was the name William E. Anderson of the RAAF fire department - explicitly mentioned in relation to the Roswell crash.

The Air Force report cites testimony from a sworn affidavit dated June 7, 1991 in which former RAAF Master Sgt Robert R. Porter attested that Captain William E. Anderson (of the base fire department) had directly told him that the crash was of a flying saucer. Porter and Anderson were both on a flight heading out of RAAF to Ft. Worth in a B-29 with cargo that contained some of the crash debris. Porter apparently trusted Anderson’s word and thought that Anderson had a more intimate involvement or knowledge about the flying saucer crash incident. Interestingly, Robert Porter is the brother of Loretta Proctor, the rancher who lived adjacent to the Foster Ranch where the crash occurred. Loretta has testified that rancher Mac Brazel brought over a piece of the debris for her and her husband Floyd to examine. Porter is also Uncle to the late Dee Proctor, Loretta’s son who was with Mac at the Foster Ranch where crash debris was found.

So we have an RAAF Master Sgt from 1947 implicating a member of the Roswell base fire department as being intimately aware of the fact that the crash was of a flying saucer. […]

See: http://uforesearchnetwork.proboards.com/thread/266/roswell-military-firemen-claim-retrieval#ixzz4dJHLE5KL

It is of course perfectly possible that a Captain William E. Anderson was a fireman at RAAF and crew member in alleged flight of the debris.

However, Porter did not say Anderson was “of the base fire department”, and he did not say there was “the crash was of a flying saucer”, instead he said that what they were transporting “was from a flying saucer”.

My comment:

Except that his name appeared in the references cited above and many others on the web, despite the fact that a few websites put his name on a list of Roswell witnesses, it appears that William E. Anderson did not testify of anything and never said anything publicly known about the flight he was supposedly in and the nature of the cargo.

So, to the best of my current knowledge, William E. Anderson is not a witness per se, he is only cited by witness Robert R. Porter.

It should also be understood that if he did say that what their plane was transporting “was from a flying saucer”, it does not mean that it was something extraterrestrial, as “flying saucer” back then did not imply this. It only implied that it was something talked about and mysterious, maybe from space, maybe some secret craft from the UD or a foreign nation.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 5, 2017First published.

William M. Woody

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/williamwoody.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

William Woody

(William WOODY, William M. WOODY).No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

William Woody, son of a farmer, was 14 years old at the time of the incident.

Affidavits:

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is William M. Woody

(2) My address is: [Confidential]

(3) I am employed as: I am retired.

(4) In 1947, I was 12 years old [corrected to 14 years old] and living with my family on our farm, located 3 miles south of Roswell, New Mexico, and east of what was then Roswell Army Air Field. I still live on that farm.

(5) One hot night during the summer of 1947, probably in early July, my father and I were outside on the farm. It was well after sundown and quite dark. Suddenly, the sky lit up. When we looked up to see where the light was coming from, we saw a large, very bright object in the southwestern sky, moving rapidly northward.

(6) The object had the bright white intensity of a blow torch, and had a long, flame-like tail, with colors like a blow-torch flame fading down into a pale red. Most of the tail was this pale red color. The tail was very long, equal to about 10 diameters of a full moon.

(7) We watched the object travel all the way across the sky until it disappeared below the northern horizon. It was moving fast, but not as fast as a meteor, and we had it in view for what seemed like 20 to 30 seconds. Its brightness and colors did not change during the whole time, and it definitely went out of sight below the horizon, rather than winking out like a meteor does. My father thought it was a big meteorite and was convinced it had fallen to earth about 40 miles north of Roswell, probably just southwest of the intersection of U.S. Highway 285 and the Corona road (State Highway 247).

(8) My father knew the territory, all its roads, and many of the people very well, so two or three days later (definitely not the next day), he decided to look for the object. He took me with him in our old flatbed truck. We headed north through Roswell on U.S. 285. About 19 miles north of town, where the highway crosses the Macho Draw, we saw at least one uniformed soldier stationed beside the road. As we drove along, we saw more sentries and Army vehicles. They were stationed at all places - ranch roads, crossroads, etc. - where there was access to leave the highway and drive east or west, and they were armed, some with rifles, others with sidearms. I do not remember seeing any military activity on the ranchland beyond the highway right of way.

(9) We stopped at one sentry post, and my father asked a soldier what was going on. The soldier, who’s attitude was very nice, just said his orders were not to let anyone leave 285 and go into the countryside.

(10) As we drove north, we saw that the Corona road (State 247), which runs west from Highway 285, was blocked by soldiers. We went on as far as Ramon, about nine miles north of the 247 intersection. There were sentries there, too. At Ramon we turned around and head south and home.

(11) I remember my father saying he thought the Army was looking for something it had tracked on its way down. He may have gotten this from the soldier he spoke with during our drive up 285, but I am not sure.

(12) I also recall that two neighbors, both now dead, stopped by and told my father they had seen the same object we had seen. One said others in his family had seen it too. There were many rumors about flying saucers that summer, and I recall the weather balloon story, explaining away the report of a flying saucer crash near Corona. This seemed reasonable to us at the time.

(13) I have not been paid or given or promised anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: William M. Woody
[Signed]
9-28-93

Signature witnessed by:
[Signed]
Tracy L. Callaway
9.28.93

Interviews and public statements:

Under construction.

Investigators notes and comments:

Tim Printy:

Tim Printy says that one of the observqtion of a celestial event related to the Roswell affair is by a man named William Woody who reported he saw a brilliant meteor on July 2, 1947, “described as white with a red tail” that streaked “across the sky, falling to the horizon”.

Printy indicates that this comes from Randle and Schmitt, in their book, on page 199.

Printy says that because of Woody’s recollection that he and his father went looking for the meteorite that weekend, Randle and Schmitt altered the date to July 4 in their second book, The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell.

Printy says that even though Woody described it as a meteor, the authors felt that it was not because it was the “wrong color” and “it was brighter than any of those other meteors” according to Randle and Schmitt, page 4. The authors also suggested that Woody saw the object fall to the ground., but unfortunately, Randle and Schmitt are taking serious liberties with their interpretation: something disappearing beyond the horizon does not mean it reached the ground.

Printy saws: “One can compare this to a ship that disappears over the horizon. Just because one sees the ship slowly blend into the ocean with the masts disappearing last does not mean the ship has sunk.”

Printy adds that Woody saw a brilliant object moving across the sky, nothing indicates it was a spaceship of any kind. He says Woody was a young boy at the time of the event and did not record the date in any sort of diary; Randle and Schmitt were based on a memory over forty years old, and it is highly likely that the observation may not have even been made in the month of July.

About the meteor being the “wrong color” or “too bright,” Ptinty says Randle and Schmitt maybe never saw a brilliant bolide at night, whereas he viewed many and saw they often cast shadows on the ground. There can be more than one color depending on the observer’s perceptions.

He concludes that it is highly likely that Woody probably just saw a brilliant meteor that went beyond his optical horizon.

Source:

Under construction.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossJuly 19, 2003First published.
1.1Patrick GrossApril 24, 2017Addition “Tim Printy”.

Anonymous archaeologist #01

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/anonymousarchaeologist01.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Anonymous archaeologist 1

().No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

There is no biography information for this witness.

Affidavits:

There is no affidavit from this witness.

Interviews and public statements:

There is no interview nor public statements for this witness.

Investigators notes and comments:

Kevin Randle:

But Carey stayed after it [the search of the “archaeologists”], reinterviewing those who had been found and rejected. He talked to Dr. George Agogino, who formally admitted that he had heard the story himself. He knew who had been there. When Carey read him the notes from the conversation with the anonymous source, Agogino said, “That’s what he told me.” (27) [The sources references are missing.]

Agogino didn’t want to identify the archaeologist, because the man had made him promise not to tell. Fear of the government seemed to be the reason. He didn’t want to get into trouble. But Agogino did tell, (28) providing a name as well as a corroborating source.

My notes: The above article in full tells many more aspects of the search for the “archaeologists” team that would have been on the “Roswell crash site”. I show here the part related to this “witness file”.

Kevin Randle:

On February 15, 1990, a man called Kevin Randle and said he was an archaeologist who was on the site of the Roswell crash when it occurred. He did not want to give his name for fear of negative repercussions in his professional life.

He said that he was with archaeologists in a survey north of the Captain Mountains in central New Mexico looking for sign of pre-Columbian occupation and Spanish sites.

As they drove cross-country they came over a rise and saw what he described as looking like a crashed airplane without wings or more like a fat fuselage. He saw no dome, portholes, hatch and no markings.

They approached the craft and he saw three bodies. The closest to him was in the best condition. He said it was small, with a head larger than a human’s head, big eyes, a mouth, no sign of a nose. It was wearing a silvery flight suit. One arm was bent at a strange angle as if broken.

Soon, military personal arrived on the site after them. They were all armed with pistols and some also with rifles. An officer ordered everyone away from the craft and told them what they had seen was a matter of national security. He then took the archaeologist names and address and the college they attended. He said that if they talked about this they would lose their grants and find no jobs.

They were then firmly escorted away, taken to the nearest road, a dusty track, and told to drive to the East. They passed an army car parked along the roadside with to armed guards standing next to it.

He said this is all he knew and refused to answer questions. He said he wanted this to be known.

Kevin Randle thought this would remain a quite useless, unverifiable report, but MUFON researcher Thomas Carey thought that there were some chances to locate peple doing archaeology in New Mexico in 1947, and by reviewing archaeological literature, he found one Dr. George Agostino from Portals-Clovis, NM, who said he heard a similar story from a friend years earlier.

When Tom Carey gave him Randle’s notes to read, he confirmed that this was the story his friend had told him.

Agogino said this man told the story to several other people over the years, and phone investigation by Carey confirmed this.

Agogino gave a name to Carey and Carey and Randle found the man.

In the Summer of 1994, Randle visited him in his office. The man refused to confirmed and resused to deny anything and asked “do I look old enough to be an archaeologist in 1947?” Randle indicated he was certainly old enough to have been an archeology student in 1947. But as the man refused to say anything, no further development occurred.

Source:

  • “The Roswell Encyclopedia ”, book by Kevin D. Randle, Captain, USA retired, USA, 2000.

Berkeley University website obituary:

George Allen Agogino died at his home early Monday morning, September 11, 2000, after a three-year battle with cancer. He was 79. He came to Portales in 1963 to lead a summer excavation at the Blackwater Draw archeological site; he stayed to create the Department of Anthropology at Eastern New Mexico University, which he chaired for eleven years. He was the founding director of the Blackwater Draw Museum which he designed and found the resources to build. In 1989 he was selected to be a New Mexico Eminent Scholar by the Governor. He retired as Distinguished Research Professor in 1991.

[…]

Dr. Agogino was fascinated by “the unexplained” and Cryptozoology. He worked with Ivan T. Sanderson and others to lend his expertise in physical anthropology to analyze evidence of what has been called the Yeti, Big Foot, Abominable Snowman, and Sasquatch. Here is the Forward he wrote for Ivan T. Sanderson’s book Abominable Snowman in 1951. Here is a 1969 article from Argosy Magazine, “The Minnesota Iceman Story”, followed by an article written by then Argosy Science Editor Ivan T. Sanderson titled: “THE MISSING LINK?”The Society for the Investigation of the Unexplained, of New Jersey, U.S.A., May 1969. pp. 23-31. Over the years, as all of the evidence sent to Agogino appeared to be either fraudulent or of some known species, Agogino came to the conclusion that it was unlikely that any such creature could continue to exist now that most of the land masses of the earth have been explored. Dr. Agogino was featured on the “unexplained mysteries” television program with the negative results from DNA analysis of an ancient finger specimen obtained from a monastery in the Himalayas called the “Pangboche Hand”.

As George Agogino was an archaeology student in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s in New Mexico and had lifetime connections with many ranchers in New Mexico, he was tapped for information concerning the July 1947 “Roswell UFO incident”. Kevin Randle’s book and its updates claim to have received confirmation from George Agogino in regards to the name of the archaeologist doing work near the Plains of San Agustin who reported the incident. George Agogino’s daughter Alice recalls that her father had narrowed the mystery archaeologist down to 3 possible candidates, the son of one told him on his deathbed that his father could not reveal information for fear of losing government contracts. Alice Agogino says that her father never had any first hand knowledge that any one of his candidates was indeed the one reported to have been involved with the Roswell incident.

[…]

Source:

My comment: the above is an obituary for Dr. Agogino by his daughter. Im one sense, it means that Dr. Agogino did not know the name of the anonymous witness this file is about.

But Kevin Randle did not write that Dr. Agogino knew the name of the anonymous archaeologist this file is about. He wrote that Dr. Agogino “supplied a name and both Carey and Randle were able to figure out who the anonymous archaeologist was”, not “supplied the name of the anonymous archaeologist”.

What looks fascinating to me is that apparently, Dr. Agogino was in a position so supply not just one name but three names of possible candidates. So, there was a possible misunderstanding here. It is possible that Dr. Agostino told of three possible names to Kevin Randle, and that among these three names, one only was the possible anonymous archaeologist Kevin Randle met. Kevin Randle does not write that this man was a witness of the Roswell case, he said this man refused to confirm and refused to deny this.

So, it seems possible that not just one, but three people, told Dr. Agostino to have been somehow witnesses of something related to the Roswell affair!

It seems to me, from the documents I have, that Kevin Randle did not claim Dr. Agostino was “directly” involved. But maybe others did.

It also appears that Dr. Agogino was interested in “the unexplained” etc. This probably eased his will to talk to Tom Carey about the Roswell affair.

Supplements:

I found out as I created this file in 2017 that Dr. Agogino wrote:

  • Agogino, George, 1996. What Fell from the Sky Near Roswell on July 3rd, 1947? , Connections, Eastern New Mexico University, No. 6, 8.

Source:

Some “skeptics” have argued that there was no reason that any archaeology team would scrap the New Mexico desert, or even claimed that there is nothing to be found there for archaeologists. This is totally false. Archaeology literature proves otherwise, and I want to cite just one of the numerous references:

Source:

  • “Cultural Resource Overview - Central New Mexico ”, by Joseph A. Tainter and France Levine, Bureau of Land Management, New Mexico State Office, Santa Fe, New Mexico, 1987.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 5, 2017First published.

Anonymous witness #01

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/anonymous01.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

Anonymous witness #01

| No photo.
---|---

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Anonymous testimony:

“I was at Roswell in 1947 to early 1950. I was as at the time a gunner in the 393rd Bomb Squadron, 509th Bomb Group and a member of Captain Frederick Ewing’s B-29 combat crew with tail number 44-7301 (Straight Flush). On Wednesday, July 9, 1947, our crew transported a crate to Carswell Army Air Force Base, Fort Worth, Texas in 1:55 minutes. The mission and cargo was classified. The crate was hauled in the front bomb bay and armed guards rode in that bomb bay with the crate. When I removed the down lock, I saw a Major and a Technical Sergeant in the bomb bay and some others in there. They rode the whole trip in the bomb bay and did not return with us. We flew unpressurized at about 8,000 feet. Our bombardier made a safety check of the shackles which held the platform secure. Those shackles were rigged so that the cargo could not be jettisoned. The corporal tail gunner and I saw the crate when we removed the down locks from the from the bomb doors. The crate was covered with a tarp when unloaded and taken away on a trailer at Carswell. I would guess the crate was about 12 x 6 x 6 feet. The engineer and I talked about weight and balance. They evidently had not given him a firm figure on the weight. He said with a laugh, “As long as it isn’t more than five thousand pounds our center of gravity should be okay.” We knew that Ft. Worth was to be our landing point, and we might get to see the new B-36 bomber. Someone made a remark about carrying “The General’s Furniture”. There had also been rumors for a couple of days about a spaceship crash, but we were only told it was classified cargo and to stay back.”

“On the way home, I went forward to chat with Warrant Officer Landry about minor problem with a prop. We had the Curtiss Electric’s and there was concern that one of them was hunting a bit. Major Jessie Marcel rode back to Roswell with us and I talked briefly with him. He was always interested in the enlisted men on flight crews. He wanted gunners to be good observers when on long missions. I don’t think his questions that day were probing. We were useful mostly as scanners because we had only tail guns. He asked if I was anxious to get into B-36’s? We were told repeatedly not to talk of this incident, not even to our wives. I held that inside until 1988 when books began to appear. To this day I am in touch with one other member of our crew. Most of the others are no longer alive. Major Ewing was killed in a B-47 crash in Florida in 1952.”

“Sometime afterwards, about three to six months later, the wives began talking among themselves about the cleanup detail. This originated from the wives of men on that duty. One such was a neighbor of ours in July 1947. They moved across town, but I would sometimes see him and I ask him what he had seen out there. He was upset and told me, “You don’t want to know.” I think he was a baker because he would leave for work in the early morning, like 0130 hours. A time or two when I’d come in from a late flight he would be standing on the corner waiting for a ride. They did not own a car. Based on the wives gossip we heard that he had seen a body.”

“Later, I became a pilot and while in SAC and was an instructor in the Aero-clubs and moonlighting as a crop duster. Aviation has been my life. While in SAC KC-97’s at March AFB our crew had two weird experiences, with something that officially wasn’t there. You may put the story in your Filer’s Files.”

Source:

Filer’s Files

By George A. Filer,
Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern Region

Another new Roswell witness?

The individual narrating the following account has requested that his name not be released at this time. “I was at Roswell in 1947 to early 1950. I was at the time a gunner in the 393rd Bomb Squadron, 509th Bomb Group, and a member of Captain Frederick Ewing’s B-29 combat crew with tail number 44-7301 (Straight Flush).

“On Wednesday, July 9,1947, our crew transported a crate to Carswell Army Air Force Base, Fort Worth, Texas in 1:55 minutes. The mission and cargo was classified. The crate was hauled in the front bomb bay, and armed guards rode in that bomb bay with the crate. When I removed the down lock, I saw a major and a technical sergeant in the bomb bay and some others in there.. They rode the whole trip in the bomb bay and did not return with us.

“We flew unpressurized at about 8,000 feet. Our bombardier made a safety check of the shackles which held the platform secure. Those shackles were rigged so that the cargo could not be jettisoned. The corporal tail gunner and I saw the crate when we removed the down locks from the bomb doors. The crate was covered with a tarp when unloaded and taken away on a trailer at Carswell. I would guess the crate was about 12x6x6 feet.

“The engineer and I talked about weight and balance. They evidently had not given him a firm figure on the weight. He said with a laugh, “As long as it isn’t more than five thousand pounds, our center of gravity should be okay.” We knew that Ft. Worth was to be our landing point, and we might get to see the new B-36 bomber. Someone made a remark about carrying “The General’s Furniture.” There had also been rumors for a couple of days about a spaceship crash, but we were only told it was classified cargo and to stay back.

“On the way home, I went forward to chat with Warrant Officer Landry about a minor problem with a prop. We had the Curtiss Electric’s, and there was concern that one of them was hunting a bit.

“Major Jessie Marcel rode back to Roswell with us, and I talked briefly with him. He was always interested in the enlisted men on flight crews. He wanted gunners to be good observers when on long missions. I don’t think his questions that day were probing. We were useful mostly as scanners because we had only tail guns. He asked if I was anxious to get into B-36’s. “We were told repeatedly not to talk of this incident, not even to our wives. I held that inside until 1988 when books began to appear. To .this day I am in touch with one other member of our crew. Most of the others are no longer alive. Major Ewing was killed in a B-47 crash in Florida in 1952.

“Sometime afterwards, about three to six months later, the wives began talking among themselves about the cleanup detail. This originated from the wives of men on that duty. One such was a neighbor of ours in July 1947. They moved across town, but I would sometimes see him and I ask him what he had seen out there. He was upset and told me, “You don’t want to know.” I think he was a baker because he would leave for work in the early morning, like 0130 hours. A time or two when I’d come in from a late flight and he would be standing on the corner waiting for a ride. They did not own a car. Based on the wives gossip we heard that he had seen a body.

“Later, I became a pilot, and while in SAC was an instructor in the Aero-clubs and moonlighting as a crop duster. Aviation has been my life. While in SAC KC-97’s at March AFB our crew had two weird experiences with something that officially wasn’t there. You may put the story in your Filer’s Files. Thanks to a Roswell B-29 gunner.”

(Filer’s Note: The government claims what was brought to Fort Worth under guard was an unclassified Mogul Balloon that they launched regularly from White Sands Proving Grounds with printed instructions on the side for a reward if found. Our witness claims there were multiple guards inside the bomb bay. Even Atomic bombs did not normally warrant guards inside the bomb bay, and certainly not an officer with the rank of major. The witness verifies parts of the message held in General Ramey’s hand, such as the debris was forwarded to Fort Worth as ordered below.)

Source:

  • “Filer’s Files ”, by George Filer, in the MUFON UFO Journal , #385, page 16, May 2000.

Thomas J. Carey:

From: Tom Carey
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:38:28 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:16:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer’s Files #14 — 2000

Dear List:

Unlike the “MP’s Story”, George Filer’s account of this witness’ story has been verified. I knew who it must be when I read it, but I called George just to make sure the source is in the 1947 RAAF yearbook, and our investigation has been in touch with him over the years. His account has not changed since he first told it to us as a reluctant witness some years ago. We hope that by going public with his story on Filer’s Files at this time, he will come forward himself in the not too distant future].

Our investigation now believes that the July 9, 1947 B-29 flight from Roswell to Ft. Worth [the flight that this witness speaks about] carried several bodies which had been recovered at the J.B. Foster Ranch. Another witness, Robert Slusher, who was also on this flight has told us that there was a local mortician on the tarmac waiting to greet the plane when it landed in Ft. Worth. After the plane discharged its cargo, it immediately returned to Roswell. On the flight back [which had an additional passenger, Maj. Jesse Marcel], one of the officers, Lt. Felix Martucci, was heard to exclaim, “Boys, we just made history!”

Tom Carey

http://www.ufoupdateslist.com/2000/apr/m11-013.shtml

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossJuly 10, 2003First published.
1.1Patrick GrossApril 26, 2017Addition of the source MUFON Journal #385.

An anonymous MP

Source: ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/anonymousmp01.htm

Roswell 1947 - Documents on the witnesses

An anonymous alleged MP

().No photo

Please, before asking any question or sending any comment or criticism, read this.

Biography:

Nothing proven can be said.

Web testimony:

From: Ed Gehrman
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 03:16:43 -0500
Subject: An MP’s Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

Errol and list:

This is not a joke!

Several months ago while I was having a heated discussion on UpDates regarding the Alien Autopsy, I received an e-mail from a person I didn’t know. It was simple and to the point. He advised me to keep defending the AA and that Santilli’s creatures, depicted in the Fox TV show, were not hoaxed nor faked. He knew because he had seen the creatures himself. He had been at Roswell when the crash occurred! Since that time I’ve kept in contact with him and we’ve exchanged information but he never told me the complete story until several days ago. Here is his version of events, Roswell, July 3rd, 1947.

An MP’s Story

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I wanted to try and remember all I could before I sent you this. Here’s some information for you to start with. The crash I saw was at what they call the Roswell location. It was not the Brazel location but on the Plains (of San Agustin.)

I was stationed at the base and was taken to the site with several other men to secure the area. I was an MP. All of the men on guard with me that morning were MPs at the base. I have my regular papers stating that I was stationed at Roswell. I left the service in 1948. There was some talk after the event, but not very much. A lot of people had been told to say nothing. I only ever spoke of it to one other person at the base who I trusted and I knew trusted me. His name was Pappy Henderson, a wonderful guy. I only told my son after the 50th anniversary was all over the press. I thought he should know the truth for sure. My wife passed away 5 years ago. I never told her.

I did not see all of the creatures, but was able to see one just as it was being covered up and then put into a truck. The one I saw had the six fingers, not three or four. As they put the creature onto a stretcher one of the arms hit the side of the MP. It was then that I took notice that it was funny looking. As I looked at it I took notice that it had six fingers. Something you will never forget! It had the big head, pale skin, pale as in Chinese complexion and was short, looked to me to be about 4’9, but it’s just a guess. It was smaller than the stretcher it was on, so that gave me a idea of size. That I can still see as if it were yesterday. The creature from the Alien Autopsy film is what it looked like. So you can imagine what a shock it was to see the film on TV. I almost died.

The creature had on a silvery suit, no helmet. I was not allowed to look inside the craft. We were told to stand facing the other direction and make sure no one would get close to the area. The craft had crashed and struck the rocks, smashing up the front of it and also cracking the big rocks. The left side of the craft had a huge hole in it going from the middle part along to the bottom. To me, it looked like something had exploded from inside the craft.I would say I was about 15 feet or so from the craft which looked like a damn stingray, with weird tile like objects under it that had a faint glow. It was dark before all the flood lights had been put up, so I was able to see that glow. They also put up flood lights facing out so no one could possibly see the area if they had been looking from a distance. To the best of my memory, it was July 3rd. The entire area was filled with people I did not know. Truman was not there at the site, but several people from DOD were in charge. Besides the regular MPs, I saw several men in normal clothes, a few with suits on. When I was debriefed it was by DOD, at least that’s what they told me, so I assume they had been in charge. I can tell you for sure that Col. Blanchard was there. He was my CO.

The craft was loaded on a flatbed truck by crane and covered with tarps and that was the last time I saw it. I can also tell you for sure that the creatures were taken to the base and then flown out to various locations, including Wright-Patterson. After that, I was told to forgot what I had seen. I was brought into Col. Blanchard’s office, he was not present. Two men dressed in suits told me that they were from DOD and not to talk about this to anyone, family or otherwise for the best interest of the country and my family.

The only thing after was just rumors. I feel that most had been afraid to talk about it. I know that three trucks had come back to the base with parts of the crash. As far as being sent to Wright-Patterson, as I mentioned, I was on friendly terms with Pappy Henderson. He flew the bodies out.

Not everyone knew about the crash. It was the damnest thing. As far as I knew, very few people at the base knew and if they did, they didn’t talk about it. The only person I ever talked to about it was Henderson. I was thirty-two at the time. I think about it almost everyday. It is a sight that you can never forget. You think, “My God! Something from another world came here and the government don’t want anyone to know” You feel like if you had tried to tell anyone back then about it, they would have thought you were crazy. It was only after hearing others come out and talk about it that you feel better about saying something.

I wonder if the truth will ever get out. The problem right now is that we don’t have any proof. Nothing to show for it. I think the people in Washington made sure that word would never get out. I hope and prey that the truth will come out soon. I’m getting older everyday and I would like the people to know. This has been upsetting over the past fifty plus years for me. Hope this helps. I am a little scared about telling this to anyone.

Source:

Investigators notes and comments:

The reaction to Ed Gehrman’s text on the UFOupdates discussion list was of justified skepticism.

Stanton Friedman effered to Ed Gehrman to verify in the 1947 RAAF Yearbook that the author of the testimony had actually been there in the military police. This was met with a refusal.

Another ufologist pointed out that the term DOD (Department of Defense) was not yet used in 1947.

My comments:

I note that the “Alien Autopsy” film with its six-finger alien was, onl later, shown to be a fraud, and an admitted one. In 2000, its credibility was still being debated.

I note that nothing in the narrative could not have been written by anyone from what had already been published on the incident.

It is suspicious that what the author claims to have been called “the Roswell site” is the so-called site of the San Agustin Plains, which is by far the furthest from Roswell and has been in the list of sites due to the fraudulent testimony by Gerald Anderson.

It is odd for an MP in Roswell to say that Colonel Blanchard was his commanding officer: he was, but not his immediate superior, so that this information makes no sense, whereas the name of his direct superior is not given.

Document history:

Version:Created/Changed by:Date:Change Description:
1.0Patrick GrossApril 6, 2017First published.

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