Bill Chalker × Grant Lavac — “Unpacking the 1971 Australian JIO UFO Document” (full interview)

Source: Grant Lavac (YouTube; the “Unexplained Rundown” show), long-form interview with Bill Chalker — the Australian documentary UFO researcher (OzFiles) who corresponded with Harry Turner personally and identified him as the 1971 Joint Intelligence Organization document’s author. URL: https://youtu.be/gD2Is-PjMhI (Grant Lavac; 2:56:38). A widely-shared ~8-minute excerpt of the “key misconception” segment circulated on r/UAP (https://www.reddit.com/r/UAP/comments/1ugsryq/, posted by u/GrantLavac, native v.redd.it video, 50 upvotes). Captured: 2026-06-28. Full YouTube auto-caption transcript (timestamps retained; ASR artifacts — intro “Heat.”=music bed, “Grush”=Grusch, “DSTO”=Defence Science and Technology Organisation, “Barlow”=George Barlow, Turner’s JIO superior, “John Farrans”=likely Dr. John Farrands, “RAS”=an alleged US anti-gravity division [name uncertain]). The interview splices inserted commentary clips (e.g. “Jesse” — likely Jesse Michels — and David Grusch) that Chalker then responds to. Provenance only; analysis lives on grusch-career-and-claims, turner-1971-jio-ufo-assessment-naa, and chalker-ozfiles-harry-turner. What this is: the most authoritative living discussion of the 1971 Harry Turner JIO UFO/anti-gravity document — the “checkable allied-government primary” Grusch points the public to in the 2026 disclosure cycle. Chalker’s load-bearing “key misconception” correction is at ~1:06:40-1:13:30: (1) it was not a formal government intelligence assessment but an informal historical-collection folder compiled by the JIO, which gained little traction — Turner’s superiors (George Barlow, the JIO head) were not keen to pursue it, deferring to the better-resourced US; (2) it makes no reference to Roswell or crashed UFOs — the phrase “crash program” is military-speak for an urgent/rapid focused effort, not crash-retrieval of craft; (3) it was effectively Turner’s internal bureaucratic pitch (leveraging open-source intelligence) to get Australia to stand up a properly-resourced UFO investigation, which he hoped would sit in DSTO; (4) its substantive value, which Chalker endorses, is Turner’s read that the US was investigating anti-gravity (Teller and Oppenheimer named, ~0:51:00-0:58:00) and that the only reason to do so was that something had gone beyond Einsteinian relativity, plus Turner’s belief in classified US UFO investigations during and after Project Blue Book. Misconceptions are introduced at ~0:05:55 and ~0:45:35; the anti-gravity material runs ~0:43:00-0:58:00.

[00:00:10.000] Heat. [00:00:34.160] Heat. [00:01:02.480] Hey, [00:01:20.080] Heat. Heat. [00:01:38.640] Heat. Heat. [00:01:48.320] Heat. Heat. [00:02:19.840] or concern you about the unknown of the [00:02:22.000] unidentified flying out. [00:02:23.280] >> Oh yes, we discussed it at every [00:02:25.200] conference that we had with the military [00:02:27.200] and they never had been never were able [00:02:29.599] to make me a concrete report on [00:02:31.599] >> you have any subject sir? No, I haven’t [00:02:34.080] had anything on subject and there [00:02:36.480] there’s always things like that going [00:02:38.239] on. [00:02:39.120] >> They’re flying saucers and they’ve had [00:02:40.879] other things. You know, [00:02:44.720] >> for years the world has seen reality [00:02:48.080] distorted, [00:02:50.400] facts manipulated [00:02:52.959] and truth hidden. [00:02:56.800] But there’s even more to the story than [00:02:59.200] anyone has ever suspected. [00:03:02.319] Because no one has been able to see the [00:03:04.239] whole picture [00:03:09.200] until now. [00:03:20.959] Friends, welcome back to a uh another [00:03:23.920] episode of the unexplained rundown. I’m [00:03:26.720] your host, Grant Lavac. And if you found [00:03:28.239] this channel intentionally, then like [00:03:30.000] me, you’re intrigued by the unexplained [00:03:32.560] mysteries of this mortal coil of ours. [00:03:34.560] You crave to know what’s real and what [00:03:36.720] is not. So, it’s good to be back with [00:03:38.400] some uh familiar names and faces in the [00:03:41.519] chat. Short order cook one. Always a [00:03:44.080] short order cook. Always good to see [00:03:45.280] you, my friend. Thanks for tuning in. [00:03:46.560] Jimmy never never messes an episode. So, [00:03:49.360] great to see you. Always my my friend uh [00:03:51.440] Beex is here with us as well. Uh we’ve [00:03:54.560] got a few folks in the house. Aliens [00:03:56.799] gonna get you. When’s it start? Right [00:03:59.280] now. You’re here right now. You’ve [00:04:01.360] joined at the right time. Erin is here [00:04:03.280] as well. Always good to see you, uh, my [00:04:05.200] friend. So, thanks for tuning in [00:04:06.799] wherever you are. If this is your [00:04:08.239] morning, your evening, uh, your day, [00:04:10.080] your graveyard shift. It’s great to be [00:04:12.080] with you. Um, if you, uh, uh, interested [00:04:15.519] to see the channel grow, please do give [00:04:18.560] it a like, share, uh, and subscribe to [00:04:21.040] the channel. Most folks that watch the [00:04:22.880] show are not abs are not not [00:04:24.720] subscribers. So, smash that subscribe [00:04:26.560] button. And if you want to support the [00:04:28.160] channel above and beyond uh a like, [00:04:30.560] share, subscribe, which goes a long way [00:04:32.400] and I appreciate it. There are some [00:04:34.000] membership options that you can explore [00:04:36.160] in the description, the show notes [00:04:38.160] below. Uh membership options on Patreon [00:04:41.120] and on YouTube. Uh Lucid UFO, thanks for [00:04:45.120] joining. Good to see you. Telekinetic, [00:04:47.440] great to see you in the chat, my friend. [00:04:48.800] Thanks for tuning in. Raph is with us as [00:04:51.040] well. Uh we have Existence Unknown [00:04:54.080] joining us and got a few folks that I [00:04:56.400] haven’t seen before. So great to um see [00:04:58.639] some new names in the chat. So um [00:05:02.000] special treat tonight, folks. I’ve been [00:05:04.160] wanting to have a chat with this [00:05:06.880] gentleman, get him back on the podcast [00:05:08.479] for quite a while. I think it’s been [00:05:09.840] almost three years since uh I had a good [00:05:12.639] chat with Bill on the podcast. So um [00:05:15.680] tonight we are talking about the 1971 [00:05:20.800] Joint Intelligence Organization Minute [00:05:23.120] Paper, the document on UFOs that’s been [00:05:25.919] referenced quite a bit frequently, [00:05:28.160] certainly recently by David Grush, uh by [00:05:30.639] others, Jesse Michaels, uh Eric [00:05:32.800] Weinstein, Carl Nil. Uh it has certainly [00:05:35.680] been doing the rounds uh very very uh [00:05:39.840] quite a bit as of late and it’s not a [00:05:41.919] new document. It’s been around for quite [00:05:43.919] some time. Uh, and there’s no one better [00:05:47.120] positioned to unpack this document for [00:05:50.400] us and provide some context, some good [00:05:54.080] background information, maybe highlight [00:05:55.680] some of the misconceptions around this [00:05:58.160] document. So, no one better than uh Bill [00:06:00.479] Chalker to uh break it all down for us. [00:06:03.520] And if you’re living under a rock and [00:06:06.080] you have not heard of Bill Chalker [00:06:08.639] before, uh, allow me to give you a brief [00:06:12.080] introduction. [00:06:13.680] So, Bill is one of Australia’s, if not [00:06:15.919] the world’s youing, uh, leading UFO [00:06:18.479] researchers, also a field investigator [00:06:21.120] based in Sydney. Is widely recognized [00:06:23.440] for his scientific approach to anomalous [00:06:25.680] phenomena, blending his background in [00:06:27.919] chemistry with rigorous archival and [00:06:30.400] forensic investigation. He has also [00:06:32.880] authored countless articles, one in [00:06:35.199] particular for New Dawn magazine. Uh did [00:06:38.240] a great article a couple years back on [00:06:40.880] Harry Turner uh part of the subject [00:06:43.360] matter that we’re covering this evening. [00:06:45.600] Obviously uh he has also uh authored uh [00:06:49.600] an incredibly comprehensive chapter on [00:06:52.560] the Australian military and the official [00:06:54.800] government response in a book titled [00:06:57.360] UFOs and government, a Historical [00:06:59.440] Inquiry. I haven’t read the book. I’ve [00:07:01.599] read Bill’s chapter on it. Fascinating. [00:07:03.680] Uh actually now keen to get my hands on [00:07:05.919] the uh the book and read it uh to to see [00:07:08.800] what else has been happening over the [00:07:10.880] decades in other parts of the world with [00:07:12.960] respect to uh this this topic. Bill has [00:07:16.720] also authored a number of books [00:07:19.280] including the Oz Files which I think is [00:07:22.400] a rare uh a rarity these days. So, you [00:07:24.800] might find a copy on Amazon for a uh a [00:07:28.160] hefty fee being a a collector’s item. [00:07:30.479] Now, he’s also authored uh Hair of the [00:07:32.960] Alien and UFO History Keys. And if you [00:07:35.680] haven’t checked out Bill’s blog, The Oz [00:07:38.080] Files, I’ve put the link in the [00:07:39.840] description below. You can check it out. [00:07:41.599] Specifically, uh all of the blog [00:07:43.360] articles that Bill has done on Harry [00:07:46.319] Turner. So you can just click on the [00:07:48.240] link and it will take you to all of the [00:07:49.680] articles that he’s done uh on Harry [00:07:51.840] Turner who’s obviously uh heavily [00:07:53.759] featured in the discussion this evening. [00:07:57.360] So I would just certainly encourage you [00:07:58.639] to have a look at the uh the blog. Some [00:08:01.120] great great articles and some great [00:08:03.599] historical uh information on the topic [00:08:07.759] uh and an absolute wealth of [00:08:09.759] information. So um like I said, it’s [00:08:12.319] been almost three years since we had [00:08:14.720] Bill on the podcast. So, it’s a a true [00:08:17.759] pleasure to welcome him back to the show [00:08:20.400] and uh Bill, I’ll bring you in and say [00:08:23.440] good day. Hopefully, you can still [00:08:24.800] >> Hi, Grant. How are you? [00:08:26.800] >> Good. Good. Thanks for [00:08:29.759] 8:00 on a Thursday night. So, thanks for [00:08:32.159] taking some time out of your reading of [00:08:34.080] no doubt Jacqu Valet’s Forbidden Science [00:08:36.800] 7. And uh and [00:08:38.080] >> uh yes, I’ve got I’ve got my nose and [00:08:41.120] eyes right into the book right now. So, [00:08:43.279] yeah, [00:08:44.080] >> I’m I’m yet to start. So, I feel a bit a [00:08:47.360] bit embarrassed that I haven’t started [00:08:48.800] yet, but um good to um good to have you [00:08:51.760] with us. And obviously, we are talking [00:08:54.959] tonight about uh Harry Turner’s 1971 [00:09:00.800] Joint Intelligence Organization uh [00:09:03.360] Minute Paper. That’s Harry in his [00:09:05.120] heyday. And you had the good fortune of [00:09:08.240] uh meeting Harry and talking with him [00:09:11.120] comprehensively before his passing. So [00:09:13.839] perhaps for um before we get into it [00:09:17.120] specifically his document, perhaps you [00:09:18.880] can provide for the benefit of the [00:09:21.120] audience that’s not really aware of [00:09:22.800] Harry’s work and how you beca how you [00:09:25.600] came to know of him and eventually sit [00:09:27.760] down with him and and uh and talk with [00:09:30.240] him. Um can you give us a bit of a a [00:09:32.640] back uh breakdown on on Harry briefly [00:09:35.360] and and how you came into contact with [00:09:37.760] him? Yeah, between uh 1982 and 84 over [00:09:43.120] about four different visits, um I spent [00:09:46.240] quite a bit of time going to CRA and [00:09:48.160] looking at the uh uh defense UFO files, [00:09:51.760] mainly RWF files at the time. And uh um [00:09:56.320] over I was I was interested in trying to [00:09:59.440] get a continuity of of files and and [00:10:02.320] cover it all from at least the 50s right [00:10:05.839] through to 80 82 80 84 and and one name [00:10:10.399] in particular came up uh both in the [00:10:13.760] early 1950s and then later in the late [00:10:17.440] 60s early 70s and um that was Harry [00:10:21.040] Turner and turns out uh he was um well [00:10:25.360] in a couple of different roles over that [00:10:26.959] period from um the 1950s. Um he he he [00:10:32.160] ended up getting a how should I say [00:10:34.800] particularly during World War II because [00:10:37.440] of wartime and his familiarity and [00:10:40.959] training in early uh radar which they [00:10:44.560] called at that time radio location. [00:10:47.519] Um he had a uh rapid run through a [00:10:50.880] university degree uh PhD in terms of uh [00:10:54.320] at at what was regarded as the the [00:10:56.880] Bailey’s [00:10:58.480] uh school of military applications radar [00:11:02.480] early radar and it became quite famous [00:11:05.519] that that school there’s a photo in [00:11:08.160] amongst the the collection which you [00:11:09.760] might have that shows Harry sitting down [00:11:12.399] with one of mainly Air Force people a [00:11:15.680] number of army people what was all [00:11:17.360] designed to give a crash course in in [00:11:21.600] uh radio location that kind of thing and [00:11:24.000] and radar. So he he had quite a [00:11:26.959] extensive knowledge on radar and and [00:11:29.519] that comes in goodstead when later on he [00:11:31.839] starts to look at some of the the raft [00:11:33.600] UFO files and the one case that [00:11:36.640] attracted his attention was the uh radar [00:11:39.440] visual case that uh um over Wura and [00:11:43.519] that occurred in 1954. quite quite a [00:11:46.000] spectacular case and uh um so that’s [00:11:50.240] essentially how I encountered him just [00:11:52.079] by seeing his name in the files to begin [00:11:54.079] with. I then rode off to Air Force [00:11:57.839] Intelligence uh Asia and a few other [00:12:02.000] parties um joint intelligence [00:12:05.200] organization um trying to locate the [00:12:08.480] whereabouts of Harry Turner. And uh uh [00:12:12.399] after a while I get this handwritten [00:12:14.320] letter back from Harry or actually [00:12:16.880] initially I got a letter from his former [00:12:19.440] boss uh Bob Mathams who was uh uh [00:12:23.120] essentially um head of what was called [00:12:25.839] the uh DSTI within JIB. That’s the joint [00:12:31.519] sorry the the director of scientific and [00:12:34.160] technical intelligence uh of the J O [00:12:37.279] which became the JIO and subsequently [00:12:40.000] now it’s sort of pretty much within the [00:12:42.240] umbrella of uh the DI organization. [00:12:45.200] Yeah. [00:12:45.519] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the Yeah. You [00:12:47.600] always get a lot of acronyms in this [00:12:49.040] game and [00:12:50.959] >> so many it’s unbelievable. But uh [00:12:53.600] essentially I was looking at him from [00:12:55.680] the uh at the time when he was liazing [00:12:58.160] with Daffy which is stands for [00:13:01.360] directorate of air force intelligence [00:13:03.120] and uh um so uh he uh in latter days um [00:13:10.000] got access to the files in his position [00:13:13.440] when he was with with the joint [00:13:14.959] intelligence bureau Jio. But in the [00:13:17.760] early days back in the 1950s, uh he uh [00:13:22.720] had established a I think a three [00:13:26.240] three-pronged approach to to looking at [00:13:28.800] flying sources and there was a huge UFO [00:13:30.880] wave. One of the biggest UFO waves in [00:13:33.680] Australia and indeed in other parts of [00:13:35.839] the world was during 1954. [00:13:38.399] But he was also looking at it from as [00:13:40.079] early as 1948. [00:13:42.639] And so he was quite a uh well-versed [00:13:45.600] with the subject. But most of it was [00:13:47.680] private interest and uh he was sort of [00:13:51.519] uh at the stage of when he made contact [00:13:54.880] with the Rouble Air For Department of [00:13:56.639] Defense, he was at u uh where are [00:14:00.959] Melbourne University uh in their physics [00:14:03.519] department and he was also [00:14:07.920] uh conducting inquiries with the local [00:14:10.720] civilian group that existed at that time [00:14:13.839] uh in 1954. Now this wasn’t um the [00:14:17.199] Victorian Flying Source Society research [00:14:20.560] society and uh it was uh it was [00:14:24.399] essentially a organization called the um [00:14:26.880] Victorian Flying Saucer Investigation [00:14:29.120] Committee. There were a few members of [00:14:30.959] that group that went on to become [00:14:32.880] members of BUS in latter days. Now [00:14:35.519] buples was unfortunately is now pretty [00:14:38.000] much uh uh non-existent although I think [00:14:40.720] there were obviously some historical [00:14:43.199] presence with it and it was quite a [00:14:45.360] well-established group. Um, and so Harry [00:14:48.560] was doing his own inquiries, doing [00:14:51.680] inquiries through the Victorian Flying [00:14:54.000] Source Investigation Committee and also [00:14:57.519] reached out to Air Force Intelligence, [00:15:00.720] but he he had already had a a pretty [00:15:04.399] high security clearance, particularly [00:15:06.320] with his work with radio location during [00:15:09.040] the Second World War. And so, uh, his [00:15:14.160] timing [00:15:15.760] to contact other couldn’t have been [00:15:17.600] better because basically, [00:15:19.760] uh, Air Force intelligence was being [00:15:21.680] hauled over the coals to come up with [00:15:23.440] some answers as to what the bloody hell [00:15:25.199] with all these flying source reports [00:15:26.800] that were [00:15:28.079] >> inundating, particularly Victoria at the [00:15:29.839] time [00:15:30.720] >> and other places in Australia, but [00:15:32.560] mainly it was mainly a Victorian [00:15:34.720] centered wave during 54 [00:15:38.240] except we uh, the classic radar visual [00:15:41.120] case uh didn’t come into any uh [00:15:44.480] prominence with him until much later. Uh [00:15:48.079] but uh this is the uh the case of uh uh [00:15:51.839] Sheamus Farrell, the seury pilot from [00:15:54.399] Narrow Naval Station that occurred [00:15:57.199] actually in late August of 1954. But uh [00:16:01.199] uh the minister of the day really didn’t [00:16:04.880] get any intensive kind of interrogation [00:16:07.680] by the the media until December 1954. So [00:16:12.079] there’s a lot of accounts around on the [00:16:14.560] web you’ll find that will date the sea [00:16:17.279] fury case as occurring in December 1954 [00:16:20.560] but it actually occurred at the end of [00:16:22.399] August 1954 and that got quite a a [00:16:26.639] detailed response. Um it was also the [00:16:30.320] subject as it turned out [00:16:32.720] uh a subject of the joint intelligence [00:16:35.680] bureau [00:16:37.279] um which was only more or less just [00:16:40.800] established and the first scientific [00:16:43.680] analyst was a chap by the name of Bob [00:16:46.399] Mathams or Robert Mathams and and he’s [00:16:49.199] the one that I actually corresponded [00:16:51.519] with uh during the 19 early 1980s [00:16:55.360] um and he um uh had become become later [00:17:00.800] um Harry Turner’s direct boss [00:17:04.079] >> right [00:17:04.400] >> in the joint intelligence bureau, Joint [00:17:06.160] Intelligence Organization. [00:17:08.319] >> Yeah. [00:17:08.880] >> And and he he mentioned to me that uh [00:17:11.520] they never really uh determined what [00:17:14.240] they would do with reports of UFOs if [00:17:18.240] they confirmed that they are [00:17:19.280] extraterrestrial. layaways were [00:17:21.120] targeting [00:17:22.720] uh UFO flying source type cases that [00:17:25.360] might have been uh Russian hardware, [00:17:28.559] Chinese hardware or not really Chinese [00:17:31.120] hardware a bit early for them but mainly [00:17:33.919] foreign adversarial type hardware [00:17:37.440] >> and that’s what they’re interested and [00:17:39.039] he said we hadn’t really defined a [00:17:41.280] policy but so it’s it’s surprising that [00:17:46.320] in some ways that they had that interest [00:17:48.320] early on but because uh Bob Matham was [00:17:52.080] was the only scientific analyst that [00:17:54.480] they had back at that time in about [00:17:57.360] 195657. [00:18:00.160] Um they just didn’t have the resources. [00:18:02.720] M [00:18:03.039] >> he did it for about a year then sort of [00:18:05.440] opted out I think for personal reasons [00:18:07.360] then came back into it and then became [00:18:09.520] the head of DSTI the director of [00:18:12.960] scientific and technical intelligence [00:18:15.360] and uh uh they started to get more and [00:18:18.559] more analysts and then uh but the [00:18:22.000] problem with Harry was that because of [00:18:23.679] his [00:18:25.200] uh coursework and stuff like that and [00:18:27.440] his university degree that he also got [00:18:30.320] in WA and also [00:18:33.200] the supplementary radioation degrees and [00:18:35.840] all that kind of stuff um at Sydney [00:18:39.440] Sydney University. Um he was regarded as [00:18:43.440] a hell of an asset particularly on the [00:18:45.600] nuclear side of things. So that’s when [00:18:47.840] they they shipped him off to Harwell in [00:18:50.880] Britain to be of some assistance in [00:18:53.520] terms of uh excuse me the um Marilinga [00:18:58.240] situation when the Brits got permission [00:19:00.960] helpfully from our prime minister of the [00:19:03.280] day Robert Menses to lit off a whole [00:19:05.600] bunch of bombs on Australian soil. you [00:19:07.679] know, really impressive work that but u [00:19:11.280] yeah not not something that anybody [00:19:13.120] alive at that time would have [00:19:14.240] appreciated really but no [00:19:15.760] >> it was a different time um everybody [00:19:18.640] wanted to support the British government [00:19:20.400] all that kind of thing and um so it was [00:19:22.960] um kind of um um I don’t know [00:19:27.840] um follow the Brits you know cheer you [00:19:31.440] know follow the the mother country that [00:19:33.360] kind of thing and so Harry was [00:19:35.760] >> do what baby brother do do what big [00:19:37.840] brother is. [00:19:38.320] >> Uh yeah. [00:19:39.280] >> Yeah. So so men said sure you can live [00:19:41.760] off atomic bombs you know in the middle [00:19:44.080] of Australia if you like and and oh [00:19:46.559] we’ve got also um Monty Bellow off the [00:19:48.880] Western Australian coast. That was the [00:19:50.240] first of them um in uh 1952. [00:19:54.799] And so there was a lot of um uh well [00:19:58.480] certainly nuclear activity going on in [00:20:00.320] Australia. And it’s striking that there [00:20:02.799] were 1952 was also a major flap year in [00:20:07.679] various locations including South [00:20:09.440] Australia and Queensland and New South [00:20:12.080] Wales, Victoria, Western Australia. [00:20:13.919] There were reports coming from from um [00:20:17.039] all around the country essentially, but [00:20:18.559] but not in huge numbers. But the really [00:20:20.559] big wave as I mentioned earlier was [00:20:22.720] 1954. [00:20:25.280] >> Very big wave. But maybe [00:20:27.600] >> sounds like [00:20:29.280] the Harry the timing was right for Harry [00:20:31.600] and they welcomed him with open arms to [00:20:34.640] >> Yeah. Well, he he he made the overture [00:20:37.039] first. He wanted to see, you know, what [00:20:39.280] do they have, you know, about their [00:20:41.280] files? And [00:20:42.480] >> they were somewhat pleased to have him [00:20:45.840] making that inquiry cuz they they were [00:20:47.679] being hauled over the coals to come up [00:20:49.200] with some answers about flying saucers. [00:20:50.960] And so they they they uh vetted him uh [00:20:55.440] confirmed that he security clearance and [00:20:57.440] then they wanted to give him a a car and [00:21:00.400] everything to assist in investigations [00:21:02.159] and and wanted him to review the the [00:21:05.120] existing files that they had. Um and he [00:21:10.480] decided he wanted to be independent at [00:21:12.960] that point point in time. And so he [00:21:15.520] declined the use of the car, that kind [00:21:17.760] of thing. And uh but they they did share [00:21:21.120] the files with him and uh he then uh [00:21:25.280] started doing this detailed analysis of [00:21:27.360] the uh of the wor whoopsy days. [00:21:31.520] >> Men in black there for a moment. Yeah. [00:21:33.919] So um um there was a um a kind of a uh [00:21:40.559] he had access directly to the Daffy [00:21:42.480] files [00:21:43.760] >> and then started systematically going [00:21:45.600] through the files. [00:21:47.520] uh and u getting used uh a great deal of [00:21:51.679] familiarity with the contents and the [00:21:53.360] one case that he really focused on big [00:21:55.679] time up to that point and this and we’re [00:21:58.320] talking essentially June July of 1954 [00:22:03.440] um so [00:22:04.960] >> the um [00:22:07.600] >> Seaf Fury case from NAR hadn’t occurred [00:22:10.880] but one of the cases that had occurred [00:22:13.280] >> was the case over um um WRA and that was [00:22:18.320] a pretty impressive case and I think I [00:22:20.799] included quite there’s actually um [00:22:24.240] yeah a number of accounts of that and [00:22:27.440] you might see I would have mentioned it [00:22:29.039] in the um uh the slide deck that [00:22:32.240] >> in your presentation. Yeah. Right. Okay. [00:22:34.640] And so was it so Harry had reached out [00:22:37.440] to you as a result of your inquiries and [00:22:39.600] is that how you developed some back and [00:22:41.440] forth correspondence or when did [00:22:43.840] >> in those slides that you’ve got of mine [00:22:46.400] I I I think I copied the letter that [00:22:49.120] Harry sent to me finally. Um I’ I’ve [00:22:53.280] just redacted his location at that time. [00:22:57.679] Um [00:22:59.280] put you on the spot now. [00:23:00.880] >> See if I can find it. [00:23:02.559] >> Yeah. Yeah, [00:23:02.960] >> give me one sec there. Uh oh, hang on. I [00:23:06.080] think I might have had it. [00:23:13.440] >> Maybe I don’t. [00:23:15.520] Is it It’s a handwritten note from um [00:23:17.840] >> Yeah. Um if I hopefully if I click on a [00:23:22.320] tab, does that cut me out? I’m still on [00:23:24.320] the screen, am I? [00:23:25.600] >> Yeah, you’re still there. You’re still [00:23:26.799] there. Actually, let me I’ll just pull [00:23:28.400] up the deck so you can um and I’ve put a [00:23:30.960] link in the uh in the show notes below. [00:23:33.760] So, if folks want to have a look at [00:23:36.720] >> um let me just do it. Here we go. So, [00:23:40.159] this was you you did a presentation a [00:23:42.400] couple of years ago and I’ve put the [00:23:44.240] link in the show notes. So, if people [00:23:45.360] want to watch the [00:23:46.640] >> the the presentation you did using the [00:23:48.720] slide deck, they certainly can because [00:23:50.400] there’s some valuable stuff in here. But [00:23:52.559] um chat, when I get to the um get to the [00:23:55.760] letter, if it’s in here, it may um I [00:23:59.760] have a feeling it may not. [00:24:03.919] >> Yeah, I’m pretty sure I would have put [00:24:05.200] it in there. Um [00:24:07.200] >> uh [00:24:08.720] yeah, I don’t think I’ Maybe not. [00:24:10.240] >> I don’t think I’ve got it. [00:24:11.600] >> Maybe not. That’s all right. We can [00:24:13.279] reference these. Um [00:24:14.799] >> anyway, it was just shortwritten letter [00:24:16.640] from Harry. He had retired by then [00:24:19.679] >> and and uh had moved up actually uh [00:24:23.200] since he’s passed away I can mention [00:24:24.799] that he moved up to Mullenar or near [00:24:27.520] Mumbar and had uh [00:24:29.440] >> was in the process uh with his wife uh [00:24:32.880] Gizlet to uh build a quite a nice house [00:24:36.960] on the river there um out the back of [00:24:39.360] Mullenar. And actually, as it turns out, [00:24:42.880] uh, as the UFO or crow flies, he was [00:24:47.200] about six or seven kilometers away from [00:24:49.679] Fernvale, which is the location of the [00:24:53.120] historical case that I looked into back [00:24:55.120] in [00:24:56.240] >> 1927. I didn’t actually look into that [00:24:58.799] in person at the time, but but in [00:25:01.120] retrospect, and it was a a really [00:25:03.679] classic case. It was like uh uh the [00:25:06.720] Mosan prophecies played out out the back [00:25:10.559] of Mumbar at a little tiny village [00:25:13.440] called Fern outside the village. It’s [00:25:15.600] quite a extraordinary case. It had [00:25:17.679] everything [00:25:18.640] >> giant birds and all that kind of stuff. [00:25:21.440] UFOs [00:25:23.840] >> men in black so to speak. [00:25:25.760] >> Cryptoz zoological. Yeah. Right. The [00:25:28.400] whole [00:25:29.200] >> very weird story but but that was 1927. [00:25:33.120] uh a long time be 20 years till uh or 40 [00:25:38.000] years till we till we get to the dating [00:25:40.799] of the Mothman prophecies and it [00:25:42.640] predated [00:25:43.600] >> the modern flying source of waves. So it [00:25:45.600] was a fascinating case. So but Harry in [00:25:48.159] the end retired [00:25:50.159] >> only a short stone throw [00:25:52.960] >> from [00:25:54.480] down a very nice place he had too by the [00:25:57.760] way. But at at the time I kind of when I [00:26:02.080] first made contact with him um he did [00:26:05.440] finally agree after a bit of uh [00:26:08.960] badgering I suppose uh to to meet up but [00:26:12.880] on the condition that we met at the [00:26:14.480] local club and uh I think it was a case [00:26:17.919] of uh uh Gizler his wife was like a a [00:26:22.559] UFO widow like essentially um uh a widow [00:26:27.840] And the competition was UFOs. And soon [00:26:30.159] as he had retired, she basically tried [00:26:31.919] to put the thumbs on him to ensure that [00:26:34.320] he was more focused on the relationship [00:26:36.320] and the family, all that kind of thing. [00:26:38.400] But Harry Harry kind of persisted [00:26:40.480] >> and I think I think he was kind of [00:26:41.760] pleased that I made contact with him. We [00:26:44.320] had numerous phone conversations and all [00:26:46.240] that kind of stuff and exchanges on that [00:26:48.480] basis. But then finally meeting him uh [00:26:52.559] near in Mulmbar I believe was at the [00:26:54.559] club there um um we had a chance to have [00:26:57.279] a fair direct discussion but it was [00:27:00.000] still [00:27:01.520] uh I don’t know getting comfortable with [00:27:03.840] the situation [00:27:05.840] and it was later on that you’ll see this [00:27:08.400] photograph of the two of us together. [00:27:10.720] >> Um that’s when we when I was first at [00:27:15.360] his house and [00:27:17.200] >> Gotcha. Um, and I did uh [00:27:21.679] >> you look pretty dapper dapper there, [00:27:24.400] Bill, with the uh [00:27:26.960] with the whole outfit. [00:27:28.960] >> Yeah. Yeah. Used year 2000 um t-shirt [00:27:32.320] from from China, right? Nice one. Got [00:27:34.320] you. But [00:27:35.600] >> yeah, it’s a bit tattered now, [00:27:36.880] unfortunately. So, yeah, but there’s [00:27:39.600] Harry um just on the ver deck of his new [00:27:43.679] house. But at that time and in that [00:27:46.960] particular visit, I could detect that [00:27:49.200] there was a very icy chill coming from [00:27:52.240] his wife. [00:27:53.279] >> Like she didn’t want me to be there, [00:27:55.840] >> but competition. [00:27:58.159] >> Yeah. Well, well, representational of [00:28:00.480] the competition. You know, I I was [00:28:03.039] bringing up UFOs and uh she wasn’t [00:28:05.600] happy. So, um [00:28:07.200] >> marriage and marriage and the UFO topic [00:28:09.279] is a uh is a is a delicate balance. [00:28:12.640] >> As many research. [00:28:15.520] >> Yeah, had a couple of business, but [00:28:16.880] eventually [00:28:18.559] uh quite a few years later, trying to [00:28:20.720] remember what time when it was, but uh [00:28:23.279] the um I’d geared up the uh the [00:28:27.039] disclosure group here in Australia, and [00:28:28.960] that’s had nothing to do, I should [00:28:30.399] emphasize, with Steven Greer’s [00:28:32.720] disclosure. Mhm. [00:28:34.080] >> Uh you’ll probably detect I’m not that [00:28:35.760] much of a fan of Steven, but but the u [00:28:38.799] the um actual um disclosure movement [00:28:43.279] here in Australia was princely run by [00:28:45.679] people of the likes of Keith Blastfield [00:28:47.520] and Company and and so you know I was [00:28:50.000] really happy to uh get involved with [00:28:52.159] that. But they were doing a lot of [00:28:54.000] fantastic work and the their archives, I [00:28:56.080] highly recommend them. But they were uh [00:28:59.200] keen to catch up with Harry if I could [00:29:02.080] organize it. [00:29:03.360] >> And I said, I’ll see what I I can do [00:29:06.240] about that. But [00:29:07.520] >> it was basically negotiating with uh [00:29:11.440] >> the gatekeeper, [00:29:12.640] >> the gatekeeper who was at this time. [00:29:15.200] She’s a lovely lady, but um uh having [00:29:18.960] >> understandably didn’t didn’t want to [00:29:20.960] lose Harry to the topic. No doubt he was [00:29:23.760] still Yeah. still very [00:29:25.520] >> as it turned out, you know, they kind of [00:29:27.840] felt that u the um whole uh situation [00:29:33.760] was changing a bit. there wasn’t the [00:29:35.520] stigma and given the fact that an [00:29:38.399] official sounding organization I had to [00:29:40.320] explain to them [00:29:41.600] >> that it wasn’t official, it was a [00:29:43.279] civilian um examination of the whole UFO [00:29:49.840] story in Australia from whatever source [00:29:52.480] it came from and mainly from official [00:29:55.200] organizations. And um between when first [00:29:59.120] encount encountering Harry with his [00:30:00.880] letter back in ’ 82 [00:30:03.039] and up until the visit that I [00:30:06.000] facilitated for the disclosure the [00:30:07.679] Australian disclosure movement at [00:30:09.840] Mullenar. Um there was a lot of material [00:30:13.679] that Harry had supplied me in these [00:30:16.320] private visits and and so um um and I [00:30:20.799] was starting well I essentially got a [00:30:23.200] lot of those original files and a lot of [00:30:27.279] those that material I could see uh was [00:30:30.640] what made up the uh the actual [00:30:34.000] um report that has become the subject of [00:30:36.559] a lot of attention in more recent years. [00:30:38.559] >> Yeah. Gotcha. And so [00:30:41.520] >> it wasn’t in in the format that I was [00:30:43.840] seeing it and I was seeing it directly [00:30:46.000] via Harry um in his files and which he [00:30:49.600] eventually uh passed on to me. Um it was [00:30:54.480] all in a bit of an ad hoc form and what [00:30:57.600] it revealed was that from the time that [00:31:00.720] he joined the joint intelligence bureau [00:31:04.080] and its subsequent uh reincarnations, [00:31:08.240] he was uh fairly persistent in trying to [00:31:12.559] get the joint intelligence bureau [00:31:16.159] uh to examine the flying saucer subject. [00:31:18.960] >> But that was not his brief. His job was [00:31:21.279] he was the head of the nuclear science [00:31:24.000] section of the DSTI, the uh director of [00:31:27.840] scientific and technical intelligence [00:31:30.960] um uh within the JAB and later the JO [00:31:36.720] >> and uh uh his his boss um Bob Mason’s [00:31:42.880] uh was trying to how should I say get [00:31:46.399] Harry to you know get away from flying [00:31:50.320] saucers, you know, get focused. [00:31:52.640] >> Eventually, he knew, he told me directly [00:31:55.200] and wrote and said, well, I knew I could [00:31:58.240] never dissuade Harry from actually [00:32:00.640] examining flying sources. So, I said, if [00:32:02.960] the work gets done on the main focus, [00:32:05.440] and that is nuclear [00:32:07.679] >> intelligence and all that kind of stuff, [00:32:09.360] then fine that he would put up with it. [00:32:12.640] But it it became this this figures into [00:32:16.000] the uh situation [00:32:18.720] uh with the perspective that a lot of [00:32:20.799] overseas researchers and some of our own [00:32:23.200] here that are taking on that 1971 [00:32:26.240] document uh that it’s presented as an [00:32:29.840] official file. Well, it’s not. [00:32:32.240] >> Yeah. [00:32:32.720] >> Well, it is in the fact that that it [00:32:34.320] exists in the joint intelligence [00:32:36.159] organization file [00:32:37.120] >> and it’s on letterhead. [00:32:38.640] >> Yeah, that’s right. But it but it’s not [00:32:40.960] an official view. Uh was never never an [00:32:44.320] official view. It was Harry’s view. [00:32:47.600] >> Yeah. Understood. [00:32:48.320] >> And he was trying to convince a lot of [00:32:50.480] players [00:32:52.080] uh to become uh consistent with that [00:32:55.039] view. And he had a lot of support, very [00:32:57.919] high level support. Uh a number of the [00:33:00.960] different um um chief of defense [00:33:04.159] scientists uh were supporters of of the [00:33:07.279] whole concept. But what he was trying to [00:33:08.640] do was not he wasn’t he didn’t I don’t [00:33:12.480] think he ever discussed with me the idea [00:33:14.640] of something like Roswell or crash [00:33:17.600] retrieval cases. He was mainly focused [00:33:20.240] on rapid intervention. The kind of thing [00:33:22.799] that I was trying to advocate as well [00:33:24.480] like being able to get to a location [00:33:26.799] when there’s an actual UFO event on or [00:33:29.840] particularly a physical trace case where [00:33:31.519] there’s physical evidence left behind. [00:33:33.840] And he got he actually got it to a stage [00:33:35.919] where [00:33:37.440] um the uh air force was agreable up to a [00:33:43.519] point and uh they were going to allow an [00:33:48.399] aircraft a jet aircraft to be on standby [00:33:51.360] >> in the event of a close encounter before [00:33:54.640] it occurring and physical traces. That’s [00:33:56.960] how far it got. And uh um but then [00:34:01.200] unfortunately that was 1969 [00:34:04.399] uh when that rapid intervention team was [00:34:06.399] almost put into play and it had people [00:34:09.839] like uh uh George Barlow who was a later [00:34:13.520] deputy uh head of the uh DSTI and and [00:34:18.399] also people like uh John Farrens and the [00:34:21.520] preceding uh chief defense scientists [00:34:23.919] whose name escapes me but uh they were [00:34:26.639] all in wanted to uh be involved. But [00:34:30.000] then uh [00:34:31.679] >> uh probably the person that was dragging [00:34:35.040] the chain a bit was the director of air [00:34:37.520] force intelligence. [00:34:39.440] He personally had a hatred of UFOs. He [00:34:41.599] did not want his own people to be [00:34:43.040] examining the UFO subject. And so he did [00:34:45.679] his best to try and downplay the whole [00:34:48.079] UFO subject. He was actually Air Force [00:34:50.879] Intelligence was happy to transfer [00:34:54.079] transfer all the files over to uh the [00:34:57.920] Joint Intelligence Bureau back in the [00:34:59.680] the late 50s if they wanted it, but they [00:35:01.760] didn’t want to [00:35:03.680] um uh get involved with it because they [00:35:06.960] saw it as a um a kind of a controversial [00:35:09.760] thing that would bring them into the [00:35:11.040] public eye and joint intelligence bureau [00:35:14.960] and and it successors did not want to be [00:35:17.040] in the public eye. Right. So it sounds [00:35:19.359] like it was killed because because there [00:35:21.680] was a this individual had a bit of a a [00:35:25.040] personal disdain for the topic and was [00:35:27.760] there was a fear of a reputational risk. [00:35:30.160] >> It still existed for quite a while. it [00:35:34.400] was uh going to be um coming about it [00:35:39.359] seemed and then there was a major wave [00:35:43.440] in a number of parts of Australia but [00:35:46.320] the one that got Harry drawn into it was [00:35:49.839] uh the one that occurred uh in Western [00:35:52.640] Australia mainly around Perth and uh [00:35:57.200] the Air Force intelligence people uh [00:35:59.760] within Daffy who were the various bases [00:36:04.000] were were be being besieged by UFO [00:36:06.960] reports [00:36:08.560] and and it it occupied about a third of [00:36:12.400] their actual time. [00:36:15.200] >> And the problem was that there was a [00:36:17.200] lack of uh support for Air Force [00:36:20.400] intelligence officers. So they even had [00:36:22.640] to drive their own vehicles to [00:36:25.119] investigate flying source societies if [00:36:26.960] they decided to investigate one. And uh [00:36:29.920] >> right [00:36:30.560] >> and so [00:36:32.480] uh the [00:36:34.400] Daffy guy or or or certainly the the [00:36:37.359] Perth RF people put out a call cuz they [00:36:40.400] had heard that this rapid intervention [00:36:43.440] team was being brought together and and [00:36:47.119] uh it wasn’t quite together and so [00:36:49.680] essentially Harry Harry Turner went [00:36:51.920] across in his own right to to Perth [00:36:56.240] >> uh to do some investigations [00:36:58.960] and he shared a lot of that [00:37:00.720] investigation with me. You won’t find [00:37:02.160] most of that. In fact, I don’t think [00:37:04.000] you’ll find any of it in the in the [00:37:05.920] >> in the archives [00:37:07.119] >> in the archives. But I’ve got copies of [00:37:08.720] it and I’ I’ve shared a bit of it in [00:37:10.880] various articles. Um and it it’s the key [00:37:16.800] uh case that interested in him the most [00:37:19.359] was at Coverdale [00:37:21.359] uh near the airport and there was a [00:37:23.839] radar visual case and given his [00:37:26.240] background back in the 50s with radar [00:37:28.800] location and radar he he had recommended [00:37:32.960] uh back in 54 that we we should focus on [00:37:36.880] radar cases and physical evidence type [00:37:39.040] cases. Um [00:37:41.440] >> uh but they basically ignored his report [00:37:44.800] in 1954 [00:37:46.640] uh even though he said that uh a number [00:37:49.200] of the cases seem to involve possibly [00:37:52.240] extraterrestrial craft. This is back in [00:37:54.800] 1954 to Air Force intelligence. So they [00:37:58.880] were looking for a way to ignore [00:38:01.599] >> Yeah. This report’s obviously got a bit [00:38:03.200] of um uh interesting document obviously. [00:38:07.040] Is this the one that you’re [00:38:08.720] >> you’re referencing? Yeah. [00:38:10.160] >> Yeah. He he completed that report uh on [00:38:13.520] ship going to England to go to Harl [00:38:16.560] >> for more preparatory work for the uh uh [00:38:20.000] the nuclear uh activity that was going [00:38:22.640] to occur in Australia. There was a lot [00:38:24.720] of pre-planning going on. [00:38:26.560] >> Um and Monty Bellow was not an ideal [00:38:30.480] location. Um [00:38:32.240] >> right. [00:38:32.640] >> Uh there’s a a really interesting book. [00:38:36.880] Uh hopefully I won’t pull down the [00:38:41.520] the thing here. But [00:38:43.040] >> the shelf doesn’t crash behind you [00:38:44.640] there. [00:38:45.280] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um I’ve I’ve got [00:38:48.320] >> It’s interesting. And while you’re [00:38:50.560] searching for that, you know, the [00:38:51.680] conclusions in this document, um, you [00:38:54.960] know, it says if if one assumes that [00:38:57.440] these intelligence reports are [00:38:58.880] authentic, then the evidence presented [00:39:00.960] is such that it is difficult to assume [00:39:03.839] any interpretation other than that [00:39:05.520] unidentified flying objects are being [00:39:07.520] observed. Uh [00:39:08.880] >> yeah, but unfortunately Harry Harry as a [00:39:12.240] good scientist decided with these [00:39:13.839] findings there he felt there were not [00:39:16.400] enough cases in the Daffy files that [00:39:18.480] were of [00:39:19.359] >> unknown and so he wanted to to compare [00:39:22.800] it [00:39:23.760] >> and do a correlation with a a bigger [00:39:26.560] selection of data and he got that mainly [00:39:28.560] from cases that were listed [00:39:31.839] >> in one of Donald Kio’s early books I [00:39:33.839] think it would have been the flying [00:39:36.240] sources from outer space because at the [00:39:38.480] back it had summaries of a lot of [00:39:42.480] interesting unexplained cases from um [00:39:46.000] the early days uh of US Air Force [00:39:48.880] investigation. [00:39:50.480] And uh uh he recommended that they in [00:39:55.040] fact get in touch with the Americans to [00:39:57.920] confirm the data that Donald Kio had [00:40:01.440] been given to verify its uh um reality. [00:40:06.480] And uh unfortunately at the time if uh [00:40:09.839] United States Air Force were caught up [00:40:11.520] in a um a bit of a argu with Donald Keo, [00:40:15.680] they were kind of u characterizing him [00:40:18.240] as a science fiction author and uh [00:40:20.720] basically uh unreliable [00:40:23.839] and [00:40:25.760] >> uh that was in fact incorrect [00:40:29.119] uh that he in fact had been given all [00:40:31.520] these unexplained cases by the media guy [00:40:34.640] with the US Air Force and that would [00:40:36.800] Albert Chop and uh he even wrote a [00:40:40.079] letter on the back of of the American [00:40:42.320] edition of uh flying sauces from outer [00:40:46.160] space. So he confirmed it. There was [00:40:48.400] never any doubt that he got these cases [00:40:51.200] from US Air Force and that they were [00:40:54.480] unexplained at the time. Yeah. And so [00:40:57.040] but the problem was [00:40:59.599] uh the US Air Force were conducting this [00:41:01.760] bit of warfare against Donald Kio and uh [00:41:06.400] that enabled our own defense people who [00:41:09.680] contacted the uh US ataché and our old [00:41:15.119] people in in Washington and they came [00:41:18.079] back with the uh then current [00:41:21.520] interpretation of Don Tier’s work saying [00:41:23.839] it was all [ __ ] [00:41:25.520] >> Yeah. and it was uh he was not to be [00:41:28.560] trusted and that undermined at the time [00:41:32.079] uh Harry’s report because he had [00:41:34.960] compared to the US data and so they used [00:41:38.000] that as a convenient way essentially to [00:41:40.560] ignore his recommendations which were to [00:41:43.440] focus on radar cases that kind of thing. [00:41:45.760] >> What a shame. [00:41:47.200] >> What a sincere shame. Well, look, let’s [00:41:49.280] maybe use that as an opportunity to um [00:41:51.599] transition now into the actual 1971 [00:41:54.000] document because it is a fascinating one [00:41:55.680] and it’s a important historical [00:41:57.599] document. But what a lot of people may [00:41:59.760] not know uh those that aren’t as maybe [00:42:02.160] wellversed on the topic as we are that [00:42:05.599] Harry Turner’s 1971 uh joint [00:42:08.079] intelligence organization minute paper [00:42:10.079] is actually included in the Department [00:42:12.480] of War’s latest third release. [00:42:15.760] >> Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:16.640] >> Um, and and so for those of you I’ve put [00:42:19.040] the the link uh in the the description [00:42:22.160] below, but if we just jump into [00:42:25.440] it’s a CIA uh file and if we jump on in, [00:42:29.599] it basically dated 1971 Australian [00:42:32.079] Review of the United States Air Force [00:42:33.440] Project Blue Book. This document was [00:42:34.800] released by the National Archives of [00:42:36.480] Australia. Now what’s um and you and I [00:42:39.200] have talked about this uh Bill, but [00:42:40.880] what’s you know a bit frustrating uh or [00:42:44.560] uh you know a bit eyebrow raising is [00:42:48.319] that if we look at the actual document [00:42:51.119] uh in detail uh it’s I’ll zoom on in for [00:42:55.040] you. [00:42:57.520] They’ve just lifted it directly out of [00:43:00.240] the National Archives of Australia. [00:43:02.560] There’s no there’s no analysis [00:43:06.079] >> provided by the CIA on that report. [00:43:10.000] >> And one of one of the things Harry [00:43:11.359] wouldn’t talk to me about was stuff that [00:43:13.680] was classified, [00:43:15.440] >> but he was pretty open with a lot of the [00:43:17.520] stuff. He did say that [00:43:19.440] >> uh yeah, they were investigating it and [00:43:22.000] there was a focus on uh anti-gravity [00:43:26.240] and that kind of thing. Um but he um I [00:43:30.640] guess he had his hands tied basically uh [00:43:33.040] in many ways. He he had several trips to [00:43:35.680] the United States meeting with the CIA [00:43:38.480] and all that kind of thing. And as it [00:43:40.560] turned out with the classic 19552 wave, [00:43:45.200] he had only one of his own associates [00:43:48.400] who was based at that time at Wura. Uh [00:43:52.319] and that was Colonel John Durant who was [00:43:54.640] the commander of the range. Um, and uh, [00:43:59.520] he comes up uh, as it turns out, he was [00:44:03.920] uh, visiting the United States during [00:44:06.160] June and July of uh, 1952 and actually [00:44:11.119] was invited in to the radar room [00:44:14.800] >> on both weekends of the Washington DC [00:44:17.280] radar sightings. [00:44:18.560] >> Wow. [00:44:18.880] >> And so Turner had the opportunity to [00:44:21.119] talk to Durance. Uh he said more or less [00:44:24.160] they were just across the table talking [00:44:26.560] to each other about it and he said that [00:44:29.359] Durant was absolutely certain that this [00:44:32.480] was not anything man-made that it was [00:44:34.720] real [00:44:36.560] and it was phenomenal. He thought it was [00:44:38.720] extraordinary [00:44:40.319] >> and it that was the catalyst I think for [00:44:43.119] a lot of the focus within the US Air [00:44:46.960] Force to start to examine [00:44:50.319] uh the the concept of anti-gravity. Now [00:44:52.720] Harry’s reaction as a physicist was well [00:44:56.720] we need to get our understanding of [00:44:58.560] gravity in order first before we start [00:45:00.960] talking about anti-gravity and so [00:45:03.839] gravity was a problem we don’t fully [00:45:06.960] understand it. So yeah, [00:45:08.960] >> well that’s that’s um so let’s have a [00:45:10.880] look at again for the benefit of the the [00:45:13.440] audience um you know what exactly the [00:45:16.640] likes of David Grush um you know Carl [00:45:19.200] Nell, Jesse Michaels and and Eric [00:45:20.960] Weinstein what they’ve been saying about [00:45:23.760] this 1971 [00:45:26.160] document that was authored by Harry [00:45:27.839] Turner just so we can then kind of uh [00:45:30.319] maybe you can provide some broader [00:45:32.880] context Bill and speak to maybe some of [00:45:35.280] the misconceptions that have arisen as a [00:45:38.240] result of folks not having as uh [00:45:41.839] in-depth of a knowledge of the [00:45:43.599] supporting documents or maybe they [00:45:45.040] haven’t even looked at the supporting [00:45:46.560] documents. So, this will give some [00:45:48.400] context. [00:45:49.599] >> Yeah, I I should explain too that it was [00:45:51.839] Keith Bastfield that got these files out [00:45:55.200] of the government and got them into the [00:45:56.960] National Archives and organized the the [00:46:00.079] digitization and that’s the only reason [00:46:01.920] you’re able to actually read it by going [00:46:04.240] to the archives. All all due credit to [00:46:06.640] Keith there. [00:46:07.760] >> Kudos to Keith. [00:46:09.760] >> Was that 2008? [00:46:12.160] >> How how what year was they they [00:46:14.000] released? Do you remember the 1971? [00:46:17.440] >> Oo, that would have been in 2010 is for [00:46:20.960] sure. I think [00:46:21.680] >> 201 [00:46:25.200] 13 years ago. All right. A bit over. [00:46:27.359] >> So they’ve been there for quite a while. [00:46:29.119] But as I was saying earlier, I’d already [00:46:31.200] seen the what made up that um I’ve got [00:46:36.400] to say it was an ad hoc collection of [00:46:38.960] documents, [00:46:40.160] >> but there was a lot of discussion about [00:46:42.160] that particular file as well. Sorry, [00:46:44.640] >> people are going to get seasick with [00:46:45.760] this. I better do something sooner. But [00:46:48.000] >> well, like we were saying, yes, it is [00:46:50.079] one of the things that’s frustrating if [00:46:51.680] you’re a, you know, a a researcher [00:46:54.319] that’s relatively green, and I still [00:46:55.839] consider myself to be relatively green. [00:46:57.839] If you have a look at the, you know, the [00:46:59.920] files that Keith was able to get [00:47:01.680] digitized, um, they’re not in any [00:47:04.240] specific order. It’s very, you know, [00:47:06.160] confusing as to what you’re, what you’re [00:47:08.240] looking at. So, it’s very hard to try [00:47:10.000] and, um, you gain a a complete picture [00:47:13.680] of what you’re actually looking at. And, [00:47:15.040] and I think that’s why you’re well [00:47:17.440] positioned to provide some some context [00:47:20.800] because of the fact that you’ve seen so [00:47:22.800] many of these. you you’ve spoken to the [00:47:24.560] man himself that authored the report, [00:47:26.560] but you’ve also seen a lot of the [00:47:28.000] supporting other documentation that [00:47:29.920] Harry authored and uh and has probably [00:47:32.000] shared with you in in his time. So [00:47:34.400] that’s why [00:47:35.359] >> one of the strategies one of the [00:47:37.119] strategies that Harry used to try and [00:47:40.079] get an interest going at a a high level [00:47:44.160] within the joint intelligence [00:47:45.599] organization was to focus on what could [00:47:48.400] be perceived as weaponry. Um, and that’s [00:47:52.240] why [00:47:53.920] uh you don’t see it in in the file [00:47:56.160] that’s uh in the Trump dump. [00:48:00.800] It’s essentially it’s it’s a second part [00:48:03.920] which exists in our archives. [00:48:07.280] >> Um, and that is [00:48:08.319] >> I’ll pull that up on screen in a moment. [00:48:09.920] Yeah. [00:48:10.160] >> Yeah. Where Harry looks at passport to [00:48:13.680] Megan Jacquel [00:48:16.160] catalog of cases. Now, unfortunately, [00:48:18.560] the British publisher Neville Spearman [00:48:22.960] chose not to include the catalog [00:48:26.720] >> uh of a thousand cases or thereabouts. [00:48:29.839] >> Um, yeah, right. [00:48:30.800] >> But Harry’s already got copies of the [00:48:32.800] American edition. Now, that’s a a much [00:48:35.119] more recent edition [00:48:37.200] >> of pass. I love the artwork. It’s very [00:48:39.680] very nice. But in the original American [00:48:42.640] publication, the catalog’s at the back, [00:48:45.760] but it’s not in the Brit the British [00:48:48.160] edition that we poor Australians would [00:48:50.000] get. We would have had to have imported [00:48:52.880] ourselves an American copy. But [00:48:55.520] >> yeah, [00:48:56.400] >> that catalog it was extremely valuable [00:48:58.319] because it was s it sort of highlighted [00:49:00.640] a whole range of data of cases mainly [00:49:04.079] UFO landing cases but also cases where [00:49:07.440] beings were reported in contact with the [00:49:09.520] landing cases and using [00:49:12.640] um what appear to be like rods to [00:49:16.079] paralyze people that kind of thing. And [00:49:19.200] uh he also included uh car stop type [00:49:22.400] cases as well. Electromagnetic type car [00:49:24.800] cases [00:49:26.400] >> and [00:49:28.000] so he listed all that in in that in that [00:49:30.720] version that appears in the Australian [00:49:34.240] um archive. [00:49:35.680] >> Yeah, [00:49:36.960] >> we we’ll have a look at that because [00:49:37.920] it’s um interesting. This the the sec [00:49:40.319] the second part of your the um I guess [00:49:44.079] the appendix information is quite [00:49:46.079] interesting that Harry adds to Yeah. [00:49:48.240] that follows on from the um the JIO [00:49:50.720] minute paper. So, well, let’s have a [00:49:52.160] look again for the benefit of the um the [00:49:54.319] viewers that maybe haven’t seen or heard [00:49:56.240] what folks like David Grush, Carl Nil, [00:49:58.720] Jesse Michaels, and Eric Weinstein have [00:50:00.400] been saying about this document. I think [00:50:02.319] it’s important contra context which we [00:50:04.960] can then get into uh the the detail of. [00:50:07.200] So, let me play this for you on screen. [00:50:10.000] >> Evidence that I that is very obscure [00:50:12.800] that is declassified. Uh there was a [00:50:15.040] former classified Australian government [00:50:18.160] analysis that is currently in the [00:50:19.839] Australian National Archives. It was [00:50:21.920] declassified several years ago. Uh but [00:50:24.960] really the public doesn’t really know [00:50:26.640] about it. Uh this was a 1971 analysis by [00:50:30.480] uh senior physicist Harry Turner who was [00:50:33.200] in charge of nuclear uh procurement for [00:50:35.920] the Australian governments uh in the 60s [00:50:38.400] and 70s. He was a top seeker cleared [00:50:40.880] senior physicist for the government and [00:50:42.960] through his sourcing and this is a a [00:50:45.680] formally classified assessment of an [00:50:47.680] allied government um uh Harry Turner [00:50:51.440] discusses uh in the first couple pages [00:50:54.000] of that assessment if if people download [00:50:56.319] it and go to page seven or eight through [00:50:58.480] 20 they’ll see what I’m talking about [00:51:00.400] where Turner talks about how the CIA and [00:51:03.200] and other organizations secretly knew [00:51:05.119] this was a real issue started that [00:51:07.200] disinformation campaign started secretly [00:51:09.839] working on reversing aspects of the [00:51:11.839] technology. Um, but the US government [00:51:14.480] was deadly serious on the topic at the [00:51:16.960] time and it’s quite the eyebrow raiser. [00:51:19.839] Um, if you actually read that document [00:51:21.680] that was originally classified and is an [00:51:24.400] official Australian uh, government [00:51:27.359] document that um, the public is not [00:51:29.839] really aware of just because it’s [00:51:31.440] obscure if you will. There’s official [00:51:35.040] Canad uh official Australian documents [00:51:38.640] declassified on the National Archives of [00:51:41.040] Australia from 1971 from their defense [00:51:44.800] attaches that made a formal assessment [00:51:47.359] of the United States interest in UFOs, [00:51:49.760] the reality of that and the fact that [00:51:51.599] the US was investigating anti-gravity [00:51:53.760] programs in concert with looking into [00:51:56.160] UFOs. A conclusion that would make no [00:51:58.559] sense unless the reality of this topic [00:52:00.720] was demonstrated. So in 1971, the [00:52:03.760] Australian Joint Intelligence [00:52:05.040] Organization, which is basically [00:52:06.480] Australia’s CIA, came out with a memo. [00:52:09.599] And the whole thrust of the memo was [00:52:11.119] written by the head of their nuclear [00:52:12.640] division, a guy named Harry Turner, who [00:52:14.880] was looking into US efforts into UFOs [00:52:17.200] and anti-gravity. And he his belief was [00:52:19.920] basically like the US had thrown all the [00:52:22.079] other countries off the trail. See, the [00:52:24.079] US at the time had this program called [00:52:25.760] Blue Book. It was the official Air Force [00:52:27.520] program studying UFOs in the ’ 50s [00:52:29.280] and60s. And yet Blue Book would kind of [00:52:32.319] minimize, downplay, rationalize, explain [00:52:34.480] away all UFO sightings. And Harry Turner [00:52:37.839] in the early ‘7s is realizing on behalf [00:52:41.040] of again his sort of CIA that actually [00:52:44.720] US inquiries into anti-gravity and UFOs [00:52:47.359] go way deeper than meets the eye. And [00:52:49.520] actually, there were real programs [00:52:51.359] behind Blue Book that were far more [00:52:53.680] vital than the research being done that [00:52:56.160] was kind of front-facing to throw the [00:52:57.920] public off the trail and to throw other [00:52:59.520] countries off the trail on behalf of the [00:53:01.599] US. And so this document, this 1971 [00:53:04.079] Australian document, is basically a [00:53:06.319] comprehensive documentation of all US [00:53:08.800] inquiries into anti-gravity and UFOs in [00:53:11.200] the ’ 50s and60s. And it says some very [00:53:13.760] bombshell things. It lists the [00:53:15.920] scientists that were involved in these [00:53:17.440] programs and it lists names like, you [00:53:19.200] know, you’ve probably heard of a lot of [00:53:20.240] these people, Edward Teller, Freeman [00:53:21.920] Dyson, Robert J. Oppenheimer as being [00:53:24.720] invol deeply involved in anti-gravity [00:53:27.119] research. It lists academic outposts [00:53:29.520] that the CIA’s Office of Scientific [00:53:31.680] Intelligence was implicitly backing [00:53:33.839] basically some of our top research [00:53:35.359] institutes at the time. And then it [00:53:38.079] lists all of the biggest aerospace [00:53:39.839] companies at the time as well. So you [00:53:41.839] know Bell Aircraft they had just broken [00:53:44.000] the sound barrier in 1947. You have [00:53:46.559] Martin Corporation this is pre- merger [00:53:48.480] with Loheed you know so kind of [00:53:50.160] pre-locked Martin Lear Corporation they [00:53:52.480] had just invented the first business [00:53:53.920] airliner and so these are you know [00:53:55.760] really important claims that we have to [00:53:57.200] look into. Is any of this true or does [00:53:59.760] does any of this actually comport with [00:54:01.520] evidence that we have from the time? Do [00:54:03.359] we have any artifacts to actually [00:54:04.880] support the fact that we were actually [00:54:06.880] looking this deeply into UFOs and [00:54:09.200] anti-gravity? Well, actually we do. So, [00:54:11.520] in 1956, there’s actually an article uh [00:54:14.319] from Young Men’s magazine, which is kind [00:54:16.160] of an aviation and hobbyist magazine, [00:54:18.319] and the headline of the article is, “The [00:54:20.000] G engines are coming.” And it basically [00:54:22.480] has quotes from all of the top aerospace [00:54:25.040] patrons that I just mentioned in the [00:54:27.280] Australian memo exuding confidence that [00:54:30.480] the US is going to beat gravity. And [00:54:32.640] it’s right around the bend. This is [00:54:34.000] basically a second Manhattan project. [00:54:35.839] and in the next you know five or 6 years [00:54:38.240] we are going to beat gravity and so you [00:54:40.319] have all these crazy quotes you have [00:54:42.800] Lawrence Bell basically saying we are [00:54:44.640] working with nuclear fuels and equipment [00:54:46.319] to cancel out gravity and then you had [00:54:48.559] George S. Trimble. He’s the VP of Martin [00:54:51.200] Corporation. So, he runs their actually [00:54:53.200] their anti-gravity division, which most [00:54:55.680] people don’t even know they had an [00:54:56.800] anti-gravity division called RAS, [00:54:58.880] Research Institute for Advanced Study. [00:55:01.040] And he’s saying that uh beating gravity [00:55:03.839] could be done in about the time it took [00:55:05.760] to build the first atom bomb. Uh so [00:55:08.400] again, sort of crazy stuff all in [00:55:10.960] accordance with that Australian memo. [00:55:13.520] There’s this 1971 Australian document [00:55:15.839] actually that Grush cites a lot that is [00:55:18.400] this guy I think it’s the head of their [00:55:19.440] nuclear division this guy Harry Turner [00:55:20.960] he’s writing for the joint intelligence [00:55:22.640] organization which is their CIA and I [00:55:25.599] think they because there’s some atomic [00:55:27.200] testing going on in in Australia they [00:55:30.079] start to see stuff and they’re like oh [00:55:32.640] maybe these UFOs are more real than [00:55:34.240] meets the eye and the US kind of [00:55:36.559] official version of this stuff around [00:55:39.359] blue book was actually not super real [00:55:42.559] and and they start to investigate and [00:55:44.480] it’s this whole thing about the CIA’s [00:55:46.000] office of scientific intelligence. They [00:55:47.520] lists the scientists involved in [00:55:48.880] anti-gravity research and Teller and [00:55:50.880] Oppenheimer are both named so would not [00:55:54.480] be at all surprised. There’s a 1971 [00:55:57.680] Australian document from the uh [00:56:01.119] Australian Intelligence Service that has [00:56:04.240] been declassified, made public, which [00:56:07.280] clears up all sorts of uh mysteries [00:56:10.960] about what was going on with physics in [00:56:13.920] the 1950s and60s. And it names names. It [00:56:17.520] says that Freeman Dyson, John Archald, [00:56:20.240] Wheeler, Pascal Jordan, the Nazi, [00:56:23.920] um, [00:56:25.520] all of these people [00:56:28.240] were working on anti-gravity [00:56:31.040] and the only reason to be working on [00:56:32.960] anti-gravity was is that there was [00:56:35.280] reason to think that something had gone [00:56:38.319] beyond uh, Einsteinian relativity. [00:56:41.520] Do you have any advice for people who [00:56:43.760] are new to the UFO uh topic, the UAP [00:56:46.960] topic, who just really don’t know where [00:56:48.960] to begin? There’s just so much [00:56:50.319] misinformation out there. What is your [00:56:52.640] advice to them? [00:56:53.680] >> Uh I would go watch James Fox’s [00:56:55.440] documentaries. I like the disclosure. [00:56:57.280] It’s a great great movie. [00:56:59.200] >> That’s a good primer. So, and I also [00:57:02.000] there is a declassified 1971 Australian [00:57:06.160] formerly classified secret assessment [00:57:07.920] that a couple years ago was put in the [00:57:09.920] Australian National Archives. I [00:57:11.599] encourage people to read page 7 through [00:57:13.599] 16 and that was the nuclear branch chief [00:57:16.079] of the Australian government discussing [00:57:18.400] the US coverup and the involvement of [00:57:20.480] the CIA back in the 70s. And that’s [00:57:22.559] actually a little known document that is [00:57:24.559] publicly available. [00:57:26.799] >> So there you go. So there there’s one [00:57:28.240] other clip that I want to play very [00:57:29.760] quickly for the benefit of the audience [00:57:31.040] because um Eric Weinstein and Jesse [00:57:33.119] Michaels go into a little bit more [00:57:34.400] detail. So uh once I play this, we can [00:57:36.799] now um get your thoughts, Bill. So let [00:57:38.799] me play this one. [00:57:40.079] >> Want to talk about the 1971 Australian [00:57:42.960] document and and its significance. [00:57:46.960] >> Yeah, sure. It’s the most hidden in [00:57:50.799] plain sight thing that Grush has [00:57:53.520] referenced in multiple interviews and [00:57:55.920] that everybody in this room should just [00:57:58.559] research because it’s insane. It’s [00:58:00.400] basically [00:58:02.000] um Australian intelligence, their, you [00:58:04.400] know, joint in intelligence uh uh staff [00:58:09.280] trying to get up to speed on American [00:58:11.599] anti-gravity and UFO retrieval programs [00:58:14.799] since the late 40s. And it is a timeline [00:58:20.000] uh from the you know estimates of the [00:58:22.559] situation twining memo uh in in in 47 [00:58:27.920] after obviously you know um Roswell and [00:58:31.760] and Kenneth Arnold um to up until you [00:58:35.359] know 50s anti-gravity research and it [00:58:38.400] talks about where a lot of this research [00:58:41.040] was anti-gravity research was housed [00:58:43.680] different six university centers Um, one [00:58:47.359] of which is UN University of uh, North [00:58:49.680] Carolina, Chapel Hill, which was kind of [00:58:51.599] Agy Bateson. One of which was MIT, which [00:58:53.839] was Roger Babson. Um, and so it’s this [00:58:58.720] uh to me absurdly, I mean, if you ever [00:59:02.319] wanted kind of like an interesting [00:59:03.680] smoking gun, like you do all this open [00:59:05.359] source research, you you piece all this [00:59:07.200] stuff together and it’s like super [00:59:08.400] patchwork quilt. You find this document [00:59:10.960] that like [00:59:12.880] is this like very very uh smooth [00:59:15.760] timeline of like everything and it’s [00:59:18.400] it’s done by a you know five eyes ally [00:59:22.079] and uh it’s pretty it’s pretty bizarre. [00:59:25.119] this document if it’s forged uh you know [00:59:27.680] there were maybe three people on planet [00:59:29.599] earth who were really focused on the [00:59:32.400] idea that there was a mystery around [00:59:36.160] um [00:59:38.079] the golden age of general relativity. So [00:59:40.640] why would somebody create an elaborate [00:59:42.480] 1971 forgery to tell this entire tale to [00:59:46.319] clear up the mystery? And the claim [00:59:47.760] inside of the document is there’s no [00:59:50.640] reason to start studying uh this stuff [00:59:54.240] but for the fact that we have recovered [00:59:55.920] craft. So um you you just have to look [00:59:59.760] at this and as a thing of wonder that as [01:00:04.160] of 1971 there were people who were [01:00:06.720] trying to piece this together. Now [01:00:09.520] understanding from um oh what’s the [01:00:12.480] Australian journalist’s name begins with [01:00:14.079] a C Ross uh [01:00:16.480] >> Colart so his point was I think that [01:00:19.119] this was a physicist who was tasked with [01:00:23.599] uh helping to operate the British [01:00:26.640] um you know the Brits used Australia as [01:00:29.040] if it were Nevada. So Australia is uh [01:00:33.520] the UK’s uh Nevada testing site from the [01:00:37.520] early earlier era. And so apparently [01:00:40.160] this was a physicist [01:00:42.640] um who was trying to figure out what the [01:00:44.240] hell was going on because supposedly [01:00:46.000] these uh flying objects attended uh [01:00:50.400] above ground nuclear detonations. [01:00:53.280] So the whole thing um the way I approach [01:00:57.760] this is I begin from the perspective of [01:01:02.400] let’s talk about the top drawer [01:01:04.000] physicists who we know knew knew their [01:01:06.640] stuff. Let’s look at their mysterious [01:01:09.119] and anomalous behavior [01:01:11.520] and then let’s try to figure out why [01:01:13.760] they would be doing any weird stuff [01:01:15.839] based on unseen forces. And you know my [01:01:19.440] my killer question for this world is [01:01:22.480] where are the physicists? If this is a [01:01:24.400] physics phenomenon, stop talking [01:01:26.480] material scientists, stop talking about [01:01:29.040] metamaterials and smart materials. Start [01:01:32.079] talking about um the most interesting [01:01:35.200] thing is the absence of physicists. If [01:01:37.680] you want to know how the Soviet Union [01:01:39.119] figured out something was going on with [01:01:40.720] the atomic bomb, it was because we [01:01:43.200] pulled all the fision documents from our [01:01:45.920] libraries in around 1943 and we stopped [01:01:48.880] publishing on fision. And so the Soviets [01:01:51.680] said, “Huh, that’s really interesting. [01:01:53.359] The fision dog isn’t barking. What’s [01:01:55.200] going on?” Um the analog right now is [01:02:00.319] where are the physicists in a thing that [01:02:02.720] is all about physics if it is real and [01:02:04.880] not at all about physics if it’s at [01:02:06.960] fake. [01:02:08.720] >> So there you go. So that’s um now [01:02:10.319] there’s actually there was one other [01:02:12.160] document I just wanted to highlight [01:02:13.839] because there’s a lot to unpack there [01:02:15.119] from obviously all of that commentary. [01:02:17.200] But it’s not just those folks that have [01:02:18.960] been talking about this document. Uh [01:02:21.680] it’s also [01:02:24.000] the disclosure the the disclosure [01:02:25.920] foundation which is chaired by [01:02:27.760] Christopher Melon. uh they recently put [01:02:30.480] out a an article basically summarizing [01:02:33.920] the presser that uh Grush did with [01:02:36.720] congressional representatives and they [01:02:38.799] actually go into some detail on the 1971 [01:02:42.400] Australian assessment saying that um [01:02:47.119] the document is significant because it [01:02:49.119] represents a formal allied government [01:02:50.799] assessment not speculation from a [01:02:52.480] private researcher. the uh examined US [01:02:55.280] intelligence involvement with UFO [01:02:57.040] reports, the role of the CIA and [01:02:58.960] Robertson panel in public debunking [01:03:01.440] advanced propulsion research and the [01:03:03.520] distinction between the US government’s [01:03:04.960] public posture and its private [01:03:06.720] intelligence interest. Uh and obviously [01:03:09.119] people can read it on the website why [01:03:11.280] the document matters. The importance of [01:03:13.520] this assessment is not that that every [01:03:15.440] conclusion should be accepted [01:03:17.280] uncritically. Historical intelligence [01:03:19.119] documents often reflect the assumptions [01:03:21.200] limitations and information environment [01:03:22.880] of their time. The importance is that a [01:03:25.039] senior Australian government official [01:03:26.559] working in a science scientific and [01:03:28.319] intelligence capacity assess the UFO [01:03:30.480] issue as a serious matter involving [01:03:32.160] national security, scientific [01:03:33.839] investigation and public information [01:03:35.440] management. The assessment describes [01:03:37.359] early United States Air Force [01:03:39.280] intelligence analysts that according to [01:03:41.119] Turner found some UFO reports involve [01:03:43.680] flight characteristic characteristics [01:03:46.000] beyond known US aircraft. It further [01:03:48.079] states that some analysts could only [01:03:50.160] envisage an extraterrestrial origin for [01:03:52.799] certain reports. Whether or not one [01:03:54.799] accepts that conclusion, the passage is [01:03:56.480] historically significant because it [01:03:58.000] records how the issue was being [01:03:59.599] evaluated inside allied government [01:04:01.760] channels. This document also discusses [01:04:04.960] CIA Office of Scientific Intelligence [01:04:07.200] involvement, the Robertson panel, and [01:04:08.880] the US government’s public posture [01:04:10.559] toward UFO reports. Turner’s assessment [01:04:12.960] argues that debunking and ridicule [01:04:15.200] helped suppress scientific inquiry even [01:04:17.920] as underlining intelligence and [01:04:20.319] scientific questions remain unresolved. [01:04:23.200] Uh [01:04:25.520] and we can kind of um [01:04:28.799] it basically goes on to what it uh what [01:04:30.640] it talks about the historical context uh [01:04:34.000] what this document does and does not [01:04:36.079] show. This document does not prove that [01:04:39.200] any particular UFO report involve [01:04:41.119] non-human in tech non-human technology. [01:04:43.599] It does not independently verify every [01:04:45.920] claim made in the assessment. It does [01:04:47.520] not resolve the modern UFO debate. It [01:04:49.680] does show something narrow and [01:04:51.200] important. A declassified allied [01:04:52.720] government assessment treated the UFO [01:04:55.200] issue as a matter involving US [01:04:57.039] intelligence activity, public [01:04:58.319] information management, air defense [01:04:59.920] scientific inquiry, and potential [01:05:01.920] advanced propulsion propulsion research. [01:05:04.559] It also documents that Australian [01:05:06.480] officials understood the United States [01:05:08.240] to have private have private interest in [01:05:10.640] UFO reporting even as the public posture [01:05:13.599] emphasize conventional explanations and [01:05:16.000] debunking. For Congress, the relevance [01:05:18.000] is straightforward. Historical records [01:05:20.079] can help determine whether the public [01:05:22.079] record uh accurately reflects what [01:05:25.039] government agencies knew, how they [01:05:26.640] handled reports, and whether lawful [01:05:28.480] oversight was impeded by excessive [01:05:30.559] secrecy or misleading public narratives. [01:05:34.079] uh why Congress should care. And this is [01:05:36.720] uh I think where we probably will go [01:05:38.079] back to you, Bill. Current congressional [01:05:40.000] interest in UAP is focused on three [01:05:42.480] central questions. Whether relevant [01:05:44.400] records have been withheld from Congress [01:05:46.559] or the public, whether whistleblowers [01:05:48.799] can safely provide protected [01:05:50.400] discussions, and whether legacy programs [01:05:51.839] or historical records remain outside [01:05:54.160] meaningful oversight. The 1971 [01:05:56.000] assessment does not answer those [01:05:57.599] questions by itself. It does however [01:05:59.599] show that concerns about secrecy, public [01:06:02.240] messaging, scientific stigma and the [01:06:04.079] intelligence handling of viewer reports [01:06:05.839] are not new. They have existed for [01:06:08.240] decades, including uh inside allied [01:06:11.440] government channels. This is why [01:06:13.119] historical UAP reports should be [01:06:15.680] collected, reviewed, declassified where [01:06:17.599] appropriate and made available to [01:06:19.599] Congress and the public. So I guess Bill [01:06:23.359] uh the question is what are your [01:06:25.440] thoughts on the characterization of [01:06:28.160] Harry Turner’s document there based on [01:06:30.960] what you’ve seen? [01:06:32.480] >> Yeah, the only problem really I have [01:06:34.720] with the characterization of uh from [01:06:36.880] those commentators is that that it it [01:06:40.079] wasn’t a formal government document. Uh [01:06:43.760] it was a collection of material put [01:06:45.839] together in a special folder by the [01:06:47.839] joint intelligence organization recorded [01:06:50.000] for historical purposes so that they [01:06:52.480] could have a collection of in relatively [01:06:55.039] informed material about flying sources. [01:06:57.200] And the main guy was of course Harry [01:06:59.119] Turner that provided all of that. But [01:07:01.760] the reality in the day was that he [01:07:05.359] wasn’t getting much traction uh with [01:07:07.920] that report when he when he brought it [01:07:09.680] to the attention of the director of uh [01:07:12.880] well his own boss um Barlow and uh the [01:07:17.599] head of the joint intelligence [01:07:18.880] organization at the time. None of them [01:07:21.280] were that keen to pursue it uh simply [01:07:24.799] because they were underresourced. they [01:07:26.400] felt that the United States government [01:07:28.640] had more resources, more money, and that [01:07:31.039] they could do a better job at focusing [01:07:33.760] on it. So, they they took a a backseat [01:07:36.240] to it and tended to downplay Harry’s [01:07:39.200] report. And so it’s it’s actually quite [01:07:41.119] surprising given that background of the [01:07:43.920] contemporary problem or the reception [01:07:46.160] that Harry received which was not that [01:07:49.200] positive um to have it turning up as an [01:07:53.520] historical document uh with the joint [01:07:55.839] intelligence organization and now [01:07:57.839] preserved uh for everybody um to have a [01:08:00.960] look at in the Australian archives. [01:08:02.960] >> Yeah. [01:08:03.280] >> And so it’s I I tend to agree with [01:08:05.920] Harry’s analysis. Of course, it doesn’t [01:08:08.400] get into anything to do with Roswell. It [01:08:11.440] doesn’t refer to anything about crash [01:08:13.359] UFOs. It does refer to a crash program, [01:08:16.880] but that crash program is basically [01:08:19.279] military speak to get our our stuff [01:08:22.960] together and start focusing at it in a [01:08:25.040] rapid way that it was an important [01:08:26.799] problem. And that’s the key importance [01:08:28.880] of Turner’s document that he was, I [01:08:32.159] think, fairly well focused. He he had [01:08:34.480] the I suppose the advantage of having [01:08:36.799] already examined it in detail back in [01:08:39.759] 1954 and writing a an official [01:08:43.120] uh report which wasn’t again well [01:08:45.279] received. Um so Harry had a lot of time [01:08:48.880] a lot of difficulty trying to get [01:08:51.279] traction with the Australian government [01:08:53.759] and department of defense to really [01:08:55.839] focus on it. Um, and he spent a lot of [01:08:58.640] time even in his role [01:09:01.120] >> in nuclear science doing UFO work. Uh, [01:09:06.159] and as I said before, uh, Barlow would [01:09:09.199] would, uh, just say, you know, as long [01:09:11.279] as you got the job done, the the the [01:09:13.279] nuclear science part of it, but he he [01:09:15.359] didn’t draw a connection in any [01:09:17.759] significant way other than the fact that [01:09:19.520] he he did confirm to me that yes, there [01:09:21.520] were reports that he had looked at. He [01:09:24.319] didn’t personally have any [01:09:26.960] uh UFO sightings [01:09:29.679] um on site. Associates of he did like uh [01:09:34.319] Reese Dalton Morgan’s grandfather uh Tom [01:09:36.799] Dalton Morgan. Um [01:09:39.520] >> uh he uh Harry knew him. He knew John uh [01:09:43.759] Sir Richard Durant. Um so there were a [01:09:46.239] lot of people and and there was also a [01:09:48.400] lot of sightings that had occurred at [01:09:50.080] Wulmer and a few at Marilinga as well. [01:09:54.000] So, [01:09:54.560] >> so I mean for me when I when I read this [01:09:56.960] this document from Harry Turner, I guess [01:09:59.199] the the last um you know the last [01:10:02.960] paragraph is kind of a um a bit of a [01:10:06.560] tell because um you know it sounds more [01:10:10.320] like based and and correct me if I’m [01:10:12.159] wrong, but it it kind of comes across [01:10:14.239] that this was um you know it was less of [01:10:18.719] a definitive intelligence assessment of [01:10:20.880] US capabilities and more of an internal [01:10:22.880] bureaucratic pitch to try and highlight [01:10:26.560] what the US was doing. These these are [01:10:28.880] reasons why we should take this topic [01:10:30.560] seriously. And obviously, you know, the [01:10:32.960] last uh section says would be it would [01:10:35.360] appear wrong for Australia to remain [01:10:37.199] ignorant of the true situation. We lack [01:10:39.840] an intelligence viewpoint that can [01:10:41.440] assess the nature and possible [01:10:42.880] consequences of the problem. a [01:10:44.960] scientific viewpoint that could derive [01:10:46.719] scientifically valid data from the [01:10:48.880] reports and a public relations viewpoint [01:10:50.719] that can honestly satisfy public [01:10:53.280] interest to overcome these deficiencies [01:10:55.440] in the Australia investigation of UFOs. [01:10:57.840] It would it would seem that a strong [01:11:00.239] case exists for the acceptance of the [01:11:02.480] RAPH suggestion that another government [01:11:04.719] department assume responsibility for the [01:11:06.800] investigation and analysis of UFO [01:11:09.920] reports. So he was leveraging that open- [01:11:12.560] source intelligence that he had [01:11:13.920] collected to try and pitch and [01:11:16.560] strengthen the business case for there [01:11:18.320] being uh a a comprehensive UFO [01:11:21.760] investigation done in an agency that was [01:11:24.560] resourced and equipped to handle it. [01:11:27.040] >> Yeah. [01:11:28.960] >> Yeah. Even though he spent a lot of time [01:11:31.679] and in his role um and occupying [01:11:36.480] uh a lot of interest in UFOs, he did [01:11:39.280] maintain obviously the work that was [01:11:41.360] what he was supposed to be doing and [01:11:42.640] that was nuclear science. and he um [01:11:47.199] as you say he was trying to use this [01:11:49.600] document [01:11:51.679] uh to to to do a pitch for the [01:11:54.719] reorganized defense military [01:11:57.040] intelligence structure which eventually [01:11:59.360] emerged with uh DSTTO um and uh the [01:12:04.719] latter formations of various different [01:12:07.120] aspects of intelligence. the late 60s [01:12:09.360] and early 70s was a time of huge [01:12:12.960] restructuring within military [01:12:14.719] intelligence in Australia. Yeah. [01:12:17.360] >> And he felt that the the best fit uh for [01:12:21.280] the flying saucer subject was probably [01:12:23.840] DSTTO and he happened to have the [01:12:26.560] support earlier with the rapid invention [01:12:29.199] team that he had the concept back in [01:12:31.600] late ’ 69 [01:12:33.600] um to uh with people like John Farah, [01:12:36.480] Dr. on Par and Barlow and company. They [01:12:40.960] were actually interested but they did [01:12:43.040] not have the resources. [01:12:45.040] >> Unfortunately, the the Yanks were the [01:12:46.719] ones that had the resources but Turner [01:12:50.480] was highlighting particularly in those [01:12:52.080] last few paragraphs [01:12:54.000] >> that we should take a separate path. We [01:12:56.640] we should be more focused on the [01:12:58.640] physical evidence that it was indeed a [01:13:00.480] reality. He he knew I think he knew and [01:13:04.000] he more or less implied it to me when we [01:13:05.679] had our discussions that that uh um the [01:13:10.000] the the Americans were conducting [01:13:12.400] classified investigations [01:13:14.719] after Blue Book had been terminated and [01:13:17.440] even while Blue Book was on there were [01:13:19.280] separate investigations and that [01:13:21.520] obviously the UFO aspect could have [01:13:24.159] inspired this focus on um the uh [01:13:28.960] anti-gravity projects and that kind of [01:13:31.360] that that that’s the implication of [01:13:32.960] Harry’s report and the significance of [01:13:34.960] it. And so on the same day that Harry [01:13:38.080] authored that report, you have this uh [01:13:41.360] minute paper, you know, to the deputy [01:13:43.280] secretary [01:13:44.800] um you know, 27th of May 1971 by an RW [01:13:49.199] Furlonger that kind of goes into uh you [01:13:53.440] know the the attitude or or um you know [01:13:57.840] justification or or what they had [01:14:00.880] proposed or what Harry had proposed into [01:14:04.400] basically [01:14:05.440] uh you know that that the the department [01:14:08.000] of supply which would become the defense [01:14:10.000] science technology organization be the [01:14:12.960] ones responsible for handling the the [01:14:15.520] UFO problem. So how did this document [01:14:19.760] this submission um by RW Furlonger [01:14:24.560] you obviously was a draft submission to [01:14:26.080] the secretary. So what was Harry’s [01:14:29.040] involvement in obviously getting this [01:14:32.159] document submitted by Feronger to deputy [01:14:35.760] secretary? [01:14:36.400] >> He was trying to get his superiors to [01:14:38.239] present it to uh Fonger. Uh that’s a [01:14:42.000] draft. Um it it it w it it never got out [01:14:45.679] as a formal [01:14:46.640] >> Oh, I see. Okay. So, because it does say [01:14:49.199] draft submission. Yeah. [01:14:50.560] >> Yeah. I’ve got copies of uh versions of [01:14:53.920] that that are more annotated and uh with [01:14:57.360] I think um um [01:15:01.040] yeah Harry’s immediate boss and others [01:15:04.560] and I think furonger it might be [01:15:06.560] furonger’s notes but somebody high up [01:15:08.719] with joint intelligence sort of saying [01:15:11.440] you know my views on this and I’m not [01:15:14.080] going to sign this memo [01:15:16.159] >> right okay so one thing that’s obviously [01:15:19.280] um just to come back to Harry’s 1971 [01:15:22.640] document. Obviously, you have the likes [01:15:24.719] of Carnell uh and Eric Weinstein and [01:15:27.679] Jesse Michaels really jump on the um you [01:15:32.719] know the the the information regarding [01:15:35.520] the course. Yeah, of course they would [01:15:38.159] because it actually represents [01:15:41.280] >> it it represents a very well-informed [01:15:44.400] summary of the situation with a a hint [01:15:47.520] and a [01:15:48.960] >> a few directions naming names and [01:15:51.280] organizations and companies to follow [01:15:53.840] the trail. Um yeah, and uh you know [01:15:57.760] that’s the importance of the document. [01:15:59.280] So yes, they’re correct in that sense. [01:16:00.960] But the part that’s not right is that it [01:16:03.679] wasn’t an officially mandated [01:16:07.120] Australian government report. It was [01:16:08.880] Harry Turner’s private private opinion [01:16:11.199] formed within his time as the director [01:16:13.760] of nuclear science within the DSTI of [01:16:17.600] the Intelligence Bureau. to strengthen [01:16:20.239] the case for uh it to be to be taken [01:16:24.080] seriously within uh within within [01:16:26.159] Australia and get a a serious um inquiry [01:16:30.640] into the whole topic. How did Harry how [01:16:33.679] did the information about the um the [01:16:36.960] research that was being conducted in the [01:16:39.040] US regarding gravity and gravity, how [01:16:41.679] did that information um come to Harry? [01:16:44.400] Was that as as a result of his time over [01:16:47.280] in was it um Harwell or was that just [01:16:49.679] open source information he was able to [01:16:52.560] secure? Well, he told me the story of um [01:16:55.760] uh when he was at Harwell [01:16:58.000] >> uh that he saw the first of the the [01:17:01.600] notices going up on the Harwell [01:17:05.600] uh classified notice board for [01:17:08.880] uh position, you know, uh indications of [01:17:11.040] interest to participate in anti-gravity. [01:17:14.239] and he like most of the other scientists [01:17:16.640] at Harwell were going, “Yeah, well, we [01:17:19.040] got to get our act together on gravity [01:17:20.719] first before we can really control uh [01:17:23.679] gravity and fixate on anti-gravity.” You [01:17:26.560] know, he said there was a lot of work to [01:17:28.080] be done. And all he’s done there is to [01:17:31.440] basically uh highlight both public and [01:17:35.280] semi sensitive classified programs. He [01:17:40.000] doesn’t outright reveal anything that [01:17:42.239] wasn’t known in the public domain. [01:17:44.560] >> Yeah. [01:17:44.960] >> Uh uh but you’d have to research deeply [01:17:48.880] and have a good understanding of the [01:17:52.159] potential programs that were in play uh [01:17:55.600] to create this list because the list uh [01:17:59.040] as Jesse and others have sort of [01:18:00.719] highlighted comprehensive these guys [01:18:02.480] were focusing on the problem. [01:18:05.120] >> These and these were all the key [01:18:06.480] players. [01:18:07.199] >> Yeah. So, [01:18:08.400] >> no, it’s an excellent summary. [01:18:10.640] >> It’s an excellent summary, but our own [01:18:13.040] government [01:18:14.560] >> our own government got back into it [01:18:16.239] about a decade later. So, uh yeah, a [01:18:19.280] decade later [01:18:20.560] >> and and reassessed the report again. [01:18:23.840] >> Yeah. [01:18:24.480] >> Uh because it was being played around [01:18:26.560] with in terms of foreign policy as well. [01:18:30.719] Uh I think I I shared with you some of [01:18:33.360] those [01:18:34.640] >> other documents. [01:18:35.120] >> Yeah. Well, let’s let’s have a look at [01:18:36.800] the the document 10 years later in 1981, [01:18:39.760] but what you were talking about earlier. [01:18:41.920] So, where the um [01:18:45.600] the document that the Department of War [01:18:47.520] put out where that basically ends I [01:18:50.480] think is um [01:18:52.080] >> I can’t remember where it ends, but but [01:18:54.000] it does [01:18:54.400] >> it doesn’t it doesn’t include the second [01:18:56.960] half, which is [01:18:58.960] focused on the passport Megan Valley [01:19:02.000] catalog. [01:19:02.719] >> That’s right. Yes, Harry Harry takes [01:19:05.520] those takes that catalog and extracts [01:19:08.480] every one of the cases that he believed [01:19:11.920] showed some uh sense of weaponry. You [01:19:15.360] know, he also does all the uh [01:19:17.679] interesting chronologies and all the [01:19:19.040] rest of I think he did a pretty good job [01:19:20.800] in terms of summarizing [01:19:23.040] >> the state of play in the United States [01:19:24.960] at that time. So, um, but I think he was [01:19:28.719] more or less arguing for our own [01:19:30.880] separate, [01:19:32.400] uh, path that really focused on the fact [01:19:34.560] that there was a a definite UFO reality. [01:19:38.080] >> Yeah. And, you know, for people that [01:19:41.199] haven’t read it, it I mean, it is a [01:19:42.800] fascinating document. Uh it’s it’s [01:19:44.960] incredibly comprehensive like you’re [01:19:47.440] saying like Harry’s obviously done his [01:19:50.080] in in the age where there was no [01:19:51.840] internet there was no uh you know he [01:19:55.360] would have had to have done some serious [01:19:56.800] leg work to compile uh all of this key [01:20:00.159] information. So it is a very very [01:20:02.000] interesting document and so that kind of [01:20:03.920] brings us to if we have a look at um the [01:20:07.520] 19 81 document which you flagged for me [01:20:11.760] um the other when in our conversations [01:20:15.120] uh the other day. So, if we go to let me [01:20:17.679] just pull up um this one now. [01:20:22.800] So, I’m just going to jump to [01:20:25.440] I think it was 49. Here we go. [01:20:28.239] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [01:20:29.840] >> So, this is um you know, we can kind of [01:20:32.640] um go we don’t have to go through it in [01:20:34.239] competitive detail, but CDS chief [01:20:36.239] defense scientist uh this was a member [01:20:39.600] on the 14th of January 1981. So about a [01:20:42.159] decade later um from gentleman by the [01:20:45.679] name of Aaron Hamilton uh strategic [01:20:49.280] um remind me what strategic and [01:20:51.360] international policy division. So [01:20:53.280] basically saying I asked um DJIO [01:20:56.080] recently uh to give me an outline the [01:20:58.480] principles and procedures governing the [01:20:59.760] defense interest in and response to UFO [01:21:01.679] sightings in Australia. I had in mind in [01:21:03.520] initiating this inquiry that in all [01:21:05.679] likelihood there would be no response to [01:21:07.280] such sightings other than by crackpots. [01:21:10.000] Now, interesting use of word there. [01:21:11.520] Unless conducted at least or at least [01:21:13.760] initiated by this department. DJ IO has [01:21:17.520] responded and I attach a copy of the [01:21:19.440] response dated 12th January 1981. I have [01:21:22.480] to conclude on the limited advice [01:21:23.920] contained in DJ IO’s minute that the [01:21:26.800] responsibility for examining UFO reports [01:21:28.880] is in fact nowhere clear in the sense [01:21:30.719] that RAPH do not hold it to be important [01:21:32.960] or binding upon them or upon the [01:21:34.800] officers to whom they delegate. I don’t [01:21:36.960] really think that the matter falls [01:21:38.159] within the normal spread of strategic [01:21:40.800] international policy responsibilities. [01:21:43.040] It does occur to me however that it [01:21:44.880] cannot be entirely without interest to [01:21:47.360] the defense science technology [01:21:48.719] organization. May I invite you to read [01:21:50.800] DJ DJ IIO’s minute to me and make your [01:21:53.360] own decisions whe whether you feel that [01:21:55.440] responsibility should be identified more [01:21:57.360] clearly more predictable procedures [01:22:00.239] should be introduced DSTTO should be [01:22:02.320] associated in any way with the [01:22:04.400] development of A and B above and DSTTO [01:22:07.040] should have some role in the [01:22:08.239] identification of matters to be [01:22:09.679] investigated or even in the [01:22:10.960] investigation of itself. So this was the [01:22:13.360] correspondence that the JIO had sent to [01:22:17.840] um Hamilton. [01:22:19.600] >> Yeah. [01:22:20.000] >> And this was what was this? This was um [01:22:22.880] a few days prior. So this is the 12th of [01:22:25.440] January 1981. And uh again just to kind [01:22:29.920] of highlight highlight some of the [01:22:31.440] information, you asked for an outline of [01:22:33.520] the principles procedures which govern [01:22:34.960] UFO sightings in Australia. This note [01:22:36.800] outlines briefly JO understanding of [01:22:38.400] policy and procedures for the [01:22:40.000] investigation of unusual aerial [01:22:41.520] sightings UAS back then in Australia. Uh [01:22:44.719] origins [01:22:46.239] uh kind of covered some of the history. [01:22:48.800] U there are effectively two types of [01:22:51.040] interest in unusual aerial sightings. [01:22:53.120] The defense interest in the possibility [01:22:54.560] of an intrusion of military significance [01:22:56.800] and the scientific interest in unusual [01:22:59.040] phenomena. Uh by the time RAPH set up [01:23:01.280] its systems in 1954, the Americans had [01:23:03.440] concluded that there were no grounds for [01:23:05.280] associating unexplained sightings with [01:23:07.280] foreign military i.e. Soviet activity. [01:23:10.000] We have evidence of continued US [01:23:11.600] scientific interest in unexplained [01:23:13.360] phenomena, much of it classified. But [01:23:15.360] after the direct military interest was [01:23:16.880] judged to be minimal, the US Air Force [01:23:18.960] public attitude became one largely of [01:23:20.639] minimizing the importance of unusual [01:23:22.400] sightings. This all also became the view [01:23:24.719] held in an RAPH in 1971. And this is [01:23:28.080] where it talks about Harry’s JO [01:23:29.840] document. The matter was examined by [01:23:32.320] DSTTO and by JIO [01:23:35.199] scientific and technical intelligence [01:23:36.960] and some thought was given to [01:23:38.719] transferring the responsibility for [01:23:40.080] examination of reports from the [01:23:42.000] department of air to scientists in the [01:23:43.520] department of defense. The transfer did [01:23:45.440] not eventuate. However, the then DJIO [01:23:49.120] did not see the investigation of [01:23:50.400] Australian phenomena as a JIO [01:23:52.560] responsibility. Nor do I quite frankly. [01:23:54.880] However, an informal liaison and [01:23:57.199] assistance continues to be provided by [01:23:59.600] JO Jio when sought by RAPH and then goes [01:24:03.679] into what the practice is that you know [01:24:05.679] it’s above and beyond their normal [01:24:07.040] duties. Uh they there’s a degree of an [01:24:10.719] administrative burden that’s placed on [01:24:13.120] uh the RAF uh personnel to actually go [01:24:17.040] through and complete a report and so on. [01:24:19.760] Uh so that any thoughts that you’ve got? [01:24:22.880] Oh, this is probably the last bit that’s [01:24:24.400] interesting. Uh 12. The press cutting [01:24:26.639] from People, so People magazine dated 10 [01:24:28.719] December 1980 was the work of freelance [01:24:31.840] journalist John Pikney. Um Pinkney, [01:24:35.120] found of Australia’s UFO Research [01:24:36.960] Society. He also had a column or so in [01:24:39.760] such journals as Australasian Post and [01:24:42.239] the recently introduced Omega. You may [01:24:44.239] recall that Omega carried a Brian Tui [01:24:46.880] article entitled Nuclear Terror, [01:24:48.800] Australia’s Secret Role, featuring a [01:24:50.320] double page colored photograph of Pine [01:24:52.239] Gap. John Pinkney’s thesis developed [01:24:54.480] along with other crackpot theories in [01:24:56.639] his book Alien Honeycomb uh paperback [01:24:59.360] $39 published in June 1980 is the [01:25:01.520] existence of a conspiracy between the [01:25:03.520] Australian and American government uh [01:25:06.080] government’s raft defense, Pentagon, [01:25:07.760] etc. for a mass cover up of unidentified [01:25:10.400] flying objects. I hope the above meets [01:25:12.800] your requirements. So before we get into [01:25:15.280] the response letter that was from um the [01:25:20.000] acting chief defense scientist, anything [01:25:22.719] Bill that you want to build on there [01:25:24.239] that we kind of read briefly in in that [01:25:26.080] document? [01:25:27.600] >> Yeah. Well, I should point out I did [01:25:29.040] lock horns with John Pney about alien [01:25:31.280] honey because that was a story based on [01:25:33.600] a crash retrieval claim in Australia. [01:25:37.360] But unfortunately, as it turned out, it [01:25:40.480] the articles that I was writing was [01:25:42.560] essentially [01:25:44.080] classing it as not so alien honeycomb. [01:25:46.320] It was uh basically explainable [01:25:48.560] material. And the analysis that um Dick [01:25:53.760] Smith financed [01:25:56.719] um and on this occasion he was quite [01:26:00.560] pleased to be able to do it. It just [01:26:02.480] highlighted the fact that it it was made [01:26:05.199] of fiberglass and um fairly mundane [01:26:09.199] man-made material and so it wasn’t [01:26:12.400] alien. Um but uh Petney didn’t want to [01:26:17.280] accept that and I can understand it [01:26:19.199] because these matters were coming out [01:26:21.840] just at the time when his book was [01:26:23.520] launched and uh [01:26:24.960] >> so um it I think it did fairly well but [01:26:28.239] the book itself’s a combination of both [01:26:30.800] a focus on that green bank UFO crash [01:26:34.239] story which turns out to be explainable [01:26:37.440] and a reasonably interesting accounting [01:26:39.920] of early eupfology up to about the 60s [01:26:43.760] and 70s and so I don’t think it’s a [01:26:46.880] worthwhile book but you need to you know [01:26:49.520] uh dampen your excitement with regard to [01:26:51.840] the green baggage story [01:26:53.199] >> right [01:26:53.920] >> is it interesting that you had you know [01:26:56.400] top tier intelligence directors [01:26:58.960] dedicating strategic bandwidth to uh [01:27:01.760] reacting to tabloid journalism that [01:27:04.000] Pinkney was putting out seems like they’ [01:27:05.760] done a bit of a comprehensive review of [01:27:07.120] what he was putting out [01:27:09.120] >> well they at least knew [01:27:10.880] >> Yeah. And uh well I actually um did a a [01:27:15.679] letter around about that time in ’ 81 [01:27:18.639] actually um to uh uh Air Force [01:27:23.440] intelligence trying to get them to um uh [01:27:27.600] follow up on certain items and I’d [01:27:29.920] listed a whole series of local coverup [01:27:34.719] claims and I was requesting them to [01:27:37.600] comment about every single one of them [01:27:39.760] but they only made token comments. ments [01:27:41.760] on a few of them and a lot of them [01:27:43.360] include the stories by John Pikney and [01:27:46.159] company. So yeah, it was interesting but [01:27:48.880] you know it’s kind of interesting as [01:27:50.480] well that this whole framing of high [01:27:52.639] level military intelligence guys doing [01:27:55.520] this assessment and looking at it uh um [01:27:58.639] it seems to imply that there was no [01:28:01.360] cover up from their point of view. Um [01:28:04.159] >> so one need to take that on board but [01:28:07.199] there’s plenty of evidence for a lot of [01:28:10.000] uh low-level interest and uh there were [01:28:12.880] many many cases that were curing [01:28:14.480] involving their own personnel that could [01:28:16.719] have been followed up a lot better and a [01:28:18.880] lot more scientifically as well. [01:28:22.560] >> So it’s you know that they use the word [01:28:24.480] crackpots in there twice in this um [01:28:27.280] >> in this this document. So you know how [01:28:31.760] um you know there’s this institutional [01:28:34.080] stigma and one of the questions I put [01:28:35.840] out they’re kind of viewing the I think [01:28:37.920] there’s a sense that some are viewing [01:28:39.760] this topic as certainly fringe a fringe [01:28:42.000] nuisance that you know it it’s does that [01:28:45.120] handicap the ability of a a serious [01:28:47.120] analyst to apply a rigorous metric [01:28:49.760] driven approach to to us data [01:28:52.560] >> because most of the data they were [01:28:54.639] getting was very ad hoc and incomplete [01:28:57.679] and But the reality was that they just [01:29:01.040] didn’t have the funds or the budgets to [01:29:03.840] focus on subjects like flying sauces and [01:29:06.960] UFOs [01:29:07.920] >> and but there were players and like the [01:29:10.719] the person you’re going to highlight the [01:29:12.320] moment the guy that responds to this [01:29:15.040] that’s George Barlow who I had actually [01:29:17.440] interviewed myself you know he said that [01:29:19.679] there would have been uh some level of [01:29:22.239] serious investigation if they had the [01:29:24.320] funds to do it but basically he’s saying [01:29:27.440] we only had funds back in the older [01:29:29.600] days. But really like Arthur Wills, he [01:29:32.480] talks about Arthur Willis. Uh it’s [01:29:34.159] Arthur Wills. Yeah. He was the previous [01:29:36.639] >> Let’s read this. Um yeah, so this was a [01:29:38.639] response. This is the 16th of um [01:29:40.719] December. I couldn’t read this [01:29:42.000] handwriting at the moment, but I did see [01:29:44.320] uh what the hell do I do is is an [01:29:46.880] interesting quote. [01:29:48.080] >> That’s the fast guy um making a comment [01:29:50.719] what I would do with it. Yeah. [01:29:52.239] >> And Baronding. [01:29:54.080] >> Yeah. So this is the response letter [01:29:55.760] from uh the chief the acting chief [01:29:58.400] defense scientist to uh uh to to what [01:30:02.639] we’ve just gone through. It says thank [01:30:04.000] you for the reference which raises a [01:30:05.600] matter which has been discussed with the [01:30:07.280] defense science technology organization [01:30:08.960] from time to time. Two previous chief [01:30:11.280] defense scientists took an interest in [01:30:13.040] the physical bases of the reported [01:30:15.520] phenomena. Mr. Ha Willis uh Wills sorry [01:30:18.080] and Dr. JL Farens and DTS uh O was [01:30:22.560] involved with JIO in the design of the [01:30:25.600] form attached to your to your minute. [01:30:27.840] The form being uh was that the reporting [01:30:30.320] form that um was [01:30:32.239] >> that’s the one Harry Turner designed [01:30:35.040] that form [01:30:36.080] >> designed that form or the [01:30:37.520] >> yeah the three-part proformer [01:30:40.320] >> reporting form in he [01:30:43.760] wanted to make the the form or the [01:30:45.840] investigation that the raft did [01:30:48.400] >> if they were going to be the ones to [01:30:49.920] keep running the show uh he wanted them [01:30:52.639] to do it in a more scientific fashion [01:30:54.719] than they were up to that point as [01:30:57.600] comprehensively data driven as possible. [01:30:59.440] Yeah. In culling the forms held by RAPH, [01:31:02.480] >> uh there remains a small core of reports [01:31:04.719] which are comp competently reported and [01:31:07.280] cannot be readily ascribed to [01:31:08.800] astronomical objects, artificial [01:31:10.480] satellite re-entry or meteorological [01:31:12.639] optical phenomena. The most interesting [01:31:14.719] of these are those which leave physical [01:31:16.480] evidence which more frequently consist [01:31:18.000] of burnt or flattened vegetation. In [01:31:20.239] more affluent days, DT DSTTO had [01:31:22.639] proposed one or two flying squads [01:31:25.440] equipped with mag uh magnetometers, [01:31:28.639] radiation counters, etc. to try to [01:31:31.199] capture some hardcore evidence. [01:31:32.880] Unfortunately, staff ceilings and [01:31:34.880] financial restrictions intervened and [01:31:37.199] that situation still persists uh for [01:31:40.480] Tiori. So that’s what kind of killed any [01:31:45.040] serious effort to get uh something up [01:31:47.600] and running. Financial burden, lack of [01:31:50.560] resources [01:31:52.159] um and a lack of perhaps interest. [01:31:55.520] >> The author is uh George Barlow and I [01:31:58.320] spoke to him a few years later about [01:32:00.719] this matter and and he he um pretty much [01:32:03.840] confirmed what he said there. [01:32:05.600] >> Yeah. Right. So if they had a lot more [01:32:08.080] money, it may have become a a real [01:32:10.080] possibility. [01:32:14.320] >> Um I won’t bother trying to read the um [01:32:17.440] the handwritten note there, but you know [01:32:19.360] this is [01:32:20.560] >> I can read it for you. I can if you live [01:32:22.239] like that [01:32:24.320] original hell by Ross Thomas Facet uh [01:32:28.159] which is international policy for [01:32:30.000] Australia and that kind of thing. uh [01:32:32.239] commented, “What I have established is a [01:32:36.080] record of quote study studied neglect.” [01:32:39.920] In other words, uh they basically [01:32:43.040] examined the subject, but they more or [01:32:45.360] less ignored it because they just did [01:32:48.000] didn’t have the money or the focus [01:32:50.239] resources to be able to study the [01:32:52.000] subject. He says, “What the hell do I [01:32:54.560] do?” [01:32:56.800] U subsequently uh he uh discussed this [01:33:01.679] with Paul Dibbard uh Dibbard I think uh [01:33:06.719] um um [01:33:09.520] uh and finally left with Ross Thompson I [01:33:13.600] think to Ross Thomas rather to raise [01:33:16.480] sometime within military space office. [01:33:20.960] So that implied that there was the [01:33:23.280] possibility if there was more funding, [01:33:26.480] more resources, it may have come back [01:33:29.120] into the picture again in a more focused [01:33:31.199] way. But essentially given the the [01:33:33.440] limited resources that the Australian [01:33:35.280] government was giving to the whole [01:33:37.600] military intelligence program, it was [01:33:40.159] essentially not something they were [01:33:42.000] going to pursue with any great [01:33:43.199] enthusiasm and they’d leave it up to the [01:33:45.120] Americans. That’s that’s the background [01:33:47.199] to it. [01:33:48.320] >> Yeah. Right. Well, it’s an interesting [01:33:51.040] and I know that there are people that [01:33:52.400] have thrown a lot of questions in the [01:33:54.080] chat. So, I I do want to get to some of [01:33:55.920] the questions that folks have, but um [01:33:58.800] before um we take questions from maybe [01:34:03.040] some of the folks in the chat, were [01:34:04.400] there any other comments that you wanted [01:34:06.239] to make, Bill, regarding the 1971 or 81 [01:34:09.040] document that we maybe haven’t um [01:34:11.360] touched on? [01:34:13.360] Yeah, look, essentially, um, given the [01:34:18.000] fact that this was generated, uh, while [01:34:20.239] we’ve still got these kind of, uh, uh, [01:34:23.360] nondigital type rapid confirmations, you [01:34:26.960] know, the modern day responses, uh, have [01:34:29.840] a big churn and they were, I think they [01:34:31.679] weren’t quite sensitive to the fact that [01:34:34.239] maybe they were going to get subjected [01:34:35.840] to FOI inquiries at a later day. [01:34:40.239] And so um to me it seems to be a more [01:34:44.320] honest kind of um kind of assessment of [01:34:48.159] the subject from their point of view. [01:34:49.520] They were under [01:34:50.639] >> situation. [01:34:51.600] >> You mentioned John Farren. I actually [01:34:53.920] had spoken to him and I thought I wasn’t [01:34:56.960] going to get much of an interest but he [01:35:00.080] in in retirement but he he had actually [01:35:02.639] had uh UFO files with him um in [01:35:07.120] retirement and was planning to write his [01:35:09.679] own book on UFOs. Um but then he I he [01:35:14.239] said I think I’ll wait until your book [01:35:16.639] comes out which was later [01:35:19.600] >> but um I’m I’m saying to him no no no [01:35:22.639] you write your book you you write that [01:35:25.040] book and uh [01:35:26.560] >> u but unfortunately um he passed away uh [01:35:31.440] uh I think about a month or so after uh [01:35:33.760] the OS files came out in 1996. uh sad to [01:35:37.840] see but [01:35:38.320] >> what and what a shame because I’m sure [01:35:40.000] there would have been some valuable info [01:35:41.760] that uh could have been [01:35:42.960] >> if Barren had written his book that he [01:35:44.800] had thought about writing it would have [01:35:46.320] been brilliant a really good [01:35:48.800] >> because it was um Sheamus Farrell the [01:35:52.239] Seaf Fury pilot uh in the classic radar [01:35:55.679] visual case uh from 1954 who used to [01:35:59.280] have regular lunches with John Farren in [01:36:02.320] the canteen at the Russell offices [01:36:04.320] building in Canberra And um he said [01:36:08.080] basically Farren knew it all. [01:36:10.880] >> He knew all about the UFO problem and he [01:36:13.199] wanted to pursue it. [01:36:14.480] >> And Farren in fact did confirm that [01:36:16.880] Timmy. Um and that document the fast [01:36:19.679] document uh confirms that as well [01:36:22.560] through George Barlow. [01:36:24.239] >> Right. [01:36:26.159] Oh well I mean we could spend and I [01:36:29.040] would encourage people to have a look at [01:36:30.400] the presentation you did a few years [01:36:32.000] ago. to the YouTube clip link is in the [01:36:34.639] um description below because you’ve got [01:36:37.040] some great slides there that um capture [01:36:39.600] a lot of uh your correspondence. And [01:36:42.320] maybe one that’s probably worth um [01:36:44.639] mentioning is um you had [01:36:49.679] um maybe if we bring it back to um to [01:36:52.880] Harry [01:36:55.760] um [01:36:57.360] >> and and just to kind of highlight, you [01:36:59.119] know, how much time Harry was actually [01:37:02.000] how much how invested he was in the [01:37:04.080] topic and really [01:37:05.920] >> spending a lot of his time obviously [01:37:07.840] he’s very efficient at his job doing his [01:37:10.320] dayto-day job and still being able to [01:37:12.800] invest time to investigate uh UFOs and [01:37:16.159] do as much as he did. But this was do [01:37:18.400] you want to maybe um tee up reference [01:37:20.800] this um this was correspondence you had [01:37:23.360] with [01:37:24.480] >> um [01:37:24.880] >> Rod Barton Rod Barton there that’s [01:37:27.199] mentioned he was uh the author of two uh [01:37:31.600] books uh one was the weapons detective [01:37:34.000] when he was working for the United [01:37:35.360] Nations and the other one um I can’t [01:37:39.119] think of the names of it but he [01:37:41.119] characterizes himself as a spy for [01:37:43.600] Australia [01:37:45.280] um but in there in both of those books [01:37:48.080] he makes some reference to working under [01:37:50.400] directly under Harry Turner and he m he [01:37:53.600] made the um the astonishing claim that [01:37:57.360] Harry was spending up to 70 80% of his [01:38:00.239] time in the nucle nuclear science [01:38:03.199] section of the SDI JAO studying UFOs and [01:38:08.480] that even just amazed me and I said you [01:38:11.440] know I I crewed him and then he’s he [01:38:15.119] responds and say hi Bill, I might have [01:38:17.360] been a bit harsh on the amount of time [01:38:19.360] Harry spent on UFOs. Thinking back, I [01:38:22.400] recall a study that he and I made on [01:38:24.800] global nuclear warfare and he was [01:38:27.040] totally committed to that. [01:38:29.280] >> Even so, if not 90%, this is what I was [01:38:33.119] I was u responding to originally. He [01:38:35.520] originally said up to 90%. I thought, [01:38:38.320] >> yeah, [01:38:38.960] >> how’s that possible? You know, but but [01:38:41.440] uh [01:38:42.239] >> did he ever sleep? [01:38:43.199] >> And he cut it back to 70 to 80%. So [01:38:46.320] >> right. Yeah. [01:38:48.000] >> That so so it it highlighted the fact [01:38:50.560] that Harry was spending an awful lot of [01:38:52.560] time focusing on UFOs during his time in [01:38:56.239] nuclear science. That in itself is a [01:38:58.400] really wonderful story I think and uh um [01:39:01.679] yeah but it was interesting um but [01:39:05.840] basically [01:39:07.440] uh Harry’s age at that time u when u his [01:39:11.920] immediate boss retired [01:39:14.800] um he no longer had the protection of of [01:39:18.880] u uh his boss who was sympathetic to [01:39:22.480] Harry and went back to the old days and [01:39:25.679] Harry retired soon after that as well. [01:39:28.239] So, [01:39:29.360] >> and that was the end of the uh [01:39:31.920] >> that was the end of Harry’s UFO wars [01:39:34.960] within the government department, [01:39:36.400] >> his tenure, right? On to [01:39:39.040] >> enjoying the fruits of his labor. So, um [01:39:41.360] are you happy to take a couple questions [01:39:43.679] from folks in the chat? Yeah. So, you’ve [01:39:45.920] kind of um touched on this one, but for [01:39:47.920] maybe folks that are late comers, Nick [01:39:49.520] um asked, “Did a rapid invention team [01:39:51.440] ever get pulled together in Australia?” [01:39:53.440] I think the safe answer is uh is no [01:39:56.239] there. But were there any other um [01:39:58.239] efforts beyond that proposal from Harry? [01:40:02.400] >> Uh you’re aware of [01:40:04.080] >> Yeah, the uh sorry there was a We’ll get [01:40:09.360] stable for a moment. [01:40:16.960] Look out. I think the uh they’ve come [01:40:19.600] for you, Bill. You’ve you’ve you’ve [01:40:21.280] frozen. Well, I’ll I’ll take my question [01:40:24.159] down. We’ll wait for um we’ll wait for [01:40:26.800] Bill to join us again. [01:40:29.840] And uh I do want to recognize some folks [01:40:32.239] in the the chat. So, while we wait for [01:40:34.880] uh for Bill to try and reconnect, [01:40:39.040] uh we’ll see if he um see if he pops in [01:40:43.119] again in just a moment. So, I’ll keep an [01:40:44.960] eye on his um [01:40:48.320] uh [01:40:49.920] his his uh his camera there. Um looks [01:40:52.800] like there’s some conversations in the [01:40:54.320] chat. You know, you guys have uh been [01:40:56.320] out to see Disclosure Day. Jimmy and I [01:40:59.199] are both fans of Close Encounters. So, [01:41:01.840] uh that’s a tough one to beat in uh in [01:41:04.719] my opinion. Uh and you’ve almost [01:41:07.119] finished finished um Jacqu Valet’s [01:41:09.360] Forbidden Science 7. I I I love seeing [01:41:12.320] the little screenshots uh that you that [01:41:14.800] you’ve highlighted there, Jimmy. So, I [01:41:17.119] by the time you finish, I will have just [01:41:18.719] started. So, I feel pretty uh I feel [01:41:21.199] pretty pretty uh pretty flat that I [01:41:24.960] haven’t even gotten stuck into it yet, [01:41:26.800] but it’s hard when you’ve got um kids [01:41:29.360] and uh and full-time work. I will get to [01:41:31.760] it, though. Uh [01:41:35.119] maybe Bill could prop that camera up [01:41:36.719] with a book or two. I think he’d already [01:41:38.320] done that. I think that was um that was [01:41:41.119] uh what was causing him some grief. [01:41:42.960] There was a question that came through [01:41:44.239] for Bill. So, we’ll wait for see if Bill [01:41:46.480] joins us again. Hopefully, he does uh [01:41:48.960] pop back in because it would be great to [01:41:52.000] um whilst we’ve kind of come to the the [01:41:54.800] end of our discussions on um on Harry [01:41:57.600] Turner. It would be good to get him back [01:41:59.840] in uh to see if he can if he can join [01:42:02.960] us. So, we’ll give it a moment and I’ll [01:42:06.080] flag that question. [01:42:08.719] Uh, but let’s see something. Appreciate [01:42:10.719] the work Harry did and Grant and Bill [01:42:12.400] bringing this history through valuable [01:42:14.080] knowledge threads within this elusive [01:42:15.760] subject. Thanks. Thank you, Telekin. [01:42:17.520] Appreciate appreciate your comments [01:42:19.840] there. Shorter to cook. There are so [01:42:21.119] many good old magazines and specialist [01:42:22.719] society magazines. There’s some [01:42:24.000] wonderful information. I got one old one [01:42:26.639] on my um my bookshelf there. And yeah, [01:42:29.040] there’s some really really fascinating [01:42:31.840] uh I mean articles that uh yeah, so much [01:42:36.000] more detailed than the tabloid crap that [01:42:38.080] you see in this day and age. And looks [01:42:39.840] like hopefully Bill has [01:42:42.800] returned. You’re back, Bill. We we lost [01:42:45.760] you. [01:42:47.679] >> Yeah, I wasn’t cut off in a big cover up [01:42:50.880] by, you know, preventing me from [01:42:52.560] disposing anything. Um, yeah, it was my [01:42:55.280] own stupidity there to knock out the [01:42:58.960] main power plug of my computer. So, I [01:43:01.040] thought it’ be quicker to get back my [01:43:03.440] mobile phone. [01:43:04.800] >> Thought AIO had gotten weaned of what [01:43:07.199] you were what we were talking about. [01:43:09.440] >> No such [01:43:11.440] thing. So, a couple questions. [01:43:13.280] >> I’ll try and answer questions if you can [01:43:14.880] relay them to me. [01:43:15.920] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, a question comes through [01:43:18.239] from Grant 9301. Hey Grant, does Bill [01:43:20.960] know who it was that appeared on the Don [01:43:23.679] Lane show way back in the 1970s and [01:43:26.960] early 80s that came on one night to talk [01:43:29.199] about the Valentic case uh from America [01:43:33.280] with an with an armed escort. Um, [01:43:36.800] >> yep. I do know who it allegedly was, [01:43:42.159] but inappropriate for me to suggest it [01:43:45.760] to point it out publicly. [01:43:48.000] um [01:43:49.440] >> based on who advised me of the details [01:43:53.440] cuz they were a little bit concerned [01:43:55.119] about u putting that out there as well. [01:43:58.400] >> I don’t see why it shouldn’t be out [01:44:00.560] there but uh to me it was just [01:44:03.840] >> I I I don’t know. I thought it was a [01:44:05.440] real dog and pony intelligence show. It [01:44:07.760] was kind of stupid beyond belief. Um and [01:44:10.639] uh anybody who believed what the guy [01:44:12.719] said at the time um would have had rocks [01:44:15.119] in their head. [01:44:16.320] >> But basically [01:44:17.760] The implication was that uh I I didn’t [01:44:20.480] see the actual interview, others that I [01:44:23.199] know did. And uh it it’s a interesting [01:44:27.679] claim, but uh the argument being that it [01:44:31.199] was uh um [01:44:34.080] essentially uh American high-tech [01:44:36.560] advanced technology [01:44:38.800] um uh UFO like um but it was all the [01:44:43.760] American government’s hardware and that [01:44:47.040] somehow Lent might have uh I can’t [01:44:50.880] remember the the actual detail of the [01:44:52.880] actual claims. teams. Um but uh yeah, [01:44:57.679] just a hint uh check out Watergate [01:45:00.320] parties. You might find out who the [01:45:02.239] person is. [01:45:02.960] >> Oh, right. Okay. So, I So, I um uh Don [01:45:07.119] Lane had quite an interest in the topic. [01:45:09.280] He was a he loved his basketball and he [01:45:12.000] was um basketball coach of a a good [01:45:14.000] friend of mine growing up as a um at [01:45:16.639] school. He um he was you the head coach [01:45:20.320] for one of the the private schools in [01:45:22.400] basketball. He had quite the fascination [01:45:24.639] on the the topic because I understand he [01:45:26.880] had quite a few people on the Don Lane [01:45:29.440] show that would uh would often open and [01:45:31.520] talk about it. [01:45:32.639] >> Um question came through from from Beno. [01:45:35.040] The Americans were here studying. Is [01:45:36.400] Bill familiar with Paul Norman? And I [01:45:38.639] believe you well and truly are. [01:45:41.119] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, Paul Norman class I [01:45:43.440] should point it out. You know, Paul did [01:45:45.600] some interesting investigations, but he [01:45:47.679] also characterized people like me and [01:45:50.080] Keith as members of Malfunction [01:45:52.400] Junction. Anybody outside Victoria that [01:45:54.880] investigated UFOs in Victoria were part [01:45:57.679] of Malfunction Junction. So, that was [01:46:01.679] Yeah. And I remember getting on into an [01:46:04.639] elevator with Paul, you know, and [01:46:06.159] basically he acknowledged my existence, [01:46:09.280] but was a [01:46:10.719] >> That was about [01:46:12.320] >> Yeah. about, you know, bit bit of a [01:46:13.840] rumble and that was it. I was being [01:46:16.239] polite. [01:46:17.440] >> Yeah. [01:46:17.840] >> Cordial. [01:46:18.480] >> But unfortunately, Paul and and members [01:46:21.119] of the Victorian group like Judy um [01:46:25.040] McGee, um they seem to have a pretty [01:46:27.760] hostile view for anybody outside of [01:46:30.320] Victoria investigating UFO sightings in [01:46:32.800] Victoria. Um, [01:46:35.760] sadly no longer with us, but um um but [01:46:39.119] they sort of did some interesting work [01:46:40.800] and yeah, I tribalism between the um [01:46:45.360] civilian UFO group [01:46:46.719] >> apparently. So, but I I’ll give them the [01:46:48.800] respect they deserve, you know, because [01:46:50.800] they did good work over the years. [01:46:53.440] >> Fair call. Fair call. Another question’s [01:46:55.360] come through. Uh do you know what [01:46:57.760] happened to the Faren’s documents he had [01:47:00.480] compiled for the book he didn’t write? [01:47:04.880] Yeah, that’s something that’s under [01:47:09.040] further research. Um, it’s there’s a lot [01:47:14.400] far being in the well, he had two major [01:47:17.280] roles in particular. He was a longtime [01:47:19.119] associate of the various manifestations [01:47:21.920] that led up to GSTTO from Department of [01:47:24.480] SL supply and all the rest of it. Um, so [01:47:27.760] his archives are incredibly large and [01:47:31.280] diverse, [01:47:33.360] but it’s the more private ones that [01:47:36.080] obviously anything that he might have [01:47:38.320] thought about um with regard to your [01:47:40.880] face. But I did speak to him and got [01:47:42.639] some limited insight uh into where he [01:47:45.920] was at with it. [01:47:47.360] >> Yeah. Right. [01:47:47.840] >> But um [01:47:49.840] uh as for the actual how far along it it [01:47:52.880] got, I don’t know. [01:47:54.719] >> Um [01:47:55.199] >> Okay. because he wasn’t well and he [01:47:57.840] passed away about a year after my book [01:47:59.440] came out. So, [01:48:00.880] >> Right. Okay. Um well, look, I’m mindful [01:48:03.760] of your time, Bill. I know that it’s 10 [01:48:05.360] to 10, but I know that um some people [01:48:08.320] are quite keen to get your thoughts on [01:48:12.480] uh Westall because you were kind enough [01:48:15.119] to share with me some of the the footage [01:48:17.440] that you had taken at the the the [01:48:19.360] inaugural West reunion witness reunion [01:48:22.400] event, the 40th anniversary back in [01:48:25.040] 2006. So, um are you happy to what time [01:48:28.159] do you need to jet? How how how are you [01:48:30.880] for time? [01:48:31.520] >> Well, we could go a couple more hours if [01:48:33.280] you like. [01:48:34.480] We could we could keep at it. Well, [01:48:36.880] before we as we transition into West and [01:48:39.520] we we talked about this briefly uh when [01:48:41.760] we spoke last, but I’ve always been [01:48:44.239] interested as to why, you know, there’s [01:48:46.320] been no documentary evidence whatsoever [01:48:50.239] for uh Westall in any of the uh the [01:48:54.880] documents that are available in the [01:48:56.159] National Archives. Now, it could be that [01:48:57.520] documents were destroyed. They’ve never [01:48:58.960] seen the light of day. But um the there [01:49:03.119] were summary documents that were put out [01:49:05.600] prepared in the public interest [01:49:07.119] including final assessments of sightings [01:49:09.360] reached uh by department of air in CRA [01:49:12.320] and it was regretted that no further [01:49:14.000] correspondence could be undertaken on [01:49:15.199] the subject. So basically there’s a [01:49:17.280] quite a gap here from the 2nd of March [01:49:19.520] to the 26th of April um in 1966 [01:49:24.320] based on the [01:49:27.280] what we’ve heard of there being um [01:49:29.679] reports of Wrath personnel that were [01:49:32.880] involved with Westall in terms of [01:49:35.600] potential witness intimidation and and [01:49:37.679] observations of possibly Wrath [01:49:39.760] personnel. Is it is it odd to you that [01:49:43.119] it was West was left out of this report [01:49:47.199] or is that nothing to uh to to to be [01:49:50.880] conspiratorial about? [01:49:53.520] >> Oh, I I think it’s there’s definitely [01:49:56.480] some sort of um uh situation there. It [01:50:01.440] it did get documentation at the time. [01:50:03.600] There was indications of RAF interest [01:50:06.159] and RAF involvement. [01:50:08.400] Therefore, it should well it should have [01:50:10.480] been a on the on those sort of summary [01:50:12.800] listings. But Harry Turner himself told [01:50:16.560] me about how that his lists were put [01:50:19.760] together. Um and uh he felt it was a [01:50:24.400] pretty poor example of [01:50:26.159] >> lackluster effect, right? [01:50:27.600] >> Yeah. Work. Basically, um, the [01:50:31.040] Department of Public Relations with the [01:50:33.119] RAPH or or Department of Defense wanted [01:50:36.000] to put out some sort of fairly benign [01:50:40.080] summary or overview of the RAF’s [01:50:43.440] involvement investigations and wanted to [01:50:45.920] be pretty upfront with it, but [01:50:49.440] Air Force intelligence weren’t prepared [01:50:51.360] to go that far. And then he basically [01:50:54.880] said, “Look, you send the files to us [01:50:58.719] and we’ll create the summaries.” [01:51:00.880] >> And this is what they did. [01:51:01.840] >> Got you. [01:51:02.639] >> And and this is in part the explanation [01:51:04.639] for some of the rather unscientific [01:51:07.280] explanations of possible causes [01:51:09.920] >> that end up in these summaries. Now [01:51:12.080] whether it continued to operate that way [01:51:14.159] the way Harry described his [01:51:16.719] understanding of it um uh but he felt it [01:51:20.719] was courtesy initially of u uh summaries [01:51:24.639] created by the director of public [01:51:28.080] relations [01:51:29.760] based on their examination of the files [01:51:32.480] and what sense they can make of each of [01:51:34.080] the cases. [01:51:35.600] So it wasn’t a very scientific kind of [01:51:37.840] uh um assessment of the uh um the data [01:51:42.480] that was in there. But of course, you [01:51:44.080] know, the core data was was rough [01:51:46.719] organized. Anyway, it was only [01:51:49.119] occasions. [01:51:53.760] Uh that doesn’t explain why [01:51:59.040] >> Yeah. The the only explanation I have [01:52:00.800] for that is that if there were western [01:52:03.520] files, they may have been removed by [01:52:05.520] certain parties and may have ended up [01:52:07.840] with the Americans. [01:52:09.599] >> Yeah. Yeah. And it makes me think of [01:52:11.840] when reading through this. [01:52:14.960] >> Yeah. Right. Another question I had. So [01:52:17.679] would it be fair to say that um you know [01:52:20.800] department of air raft were generally [01:52:23.840] you know Australia’s primary agencies [01:52:25.440] were receiving and assessing reports [01:52:27.360] from the public and aviation sector from [01:52:29.920] the 50s onwards. [01:52:31.840] >> Yeah. Originally it was DCA were were [01:52:34.800] involved originally. they were told to [01:52:37.119] butt out that it was basically air force [01:52:39.360] intelligence’s requ role to do it. Um [01:52:43.520] but then subsequently there would be [01:52:46.800] organizations like the CSRO [01:52:49.520] uh that were brought in as consultants [01:52:51.599] and and that kind of thing. Um so there [01:52:54.719] was a lot of um involvement from various [01:52:57.840] government departments. Um but it was a [01:53:01.040] a bit of an ad hoc thing but the main [01:53:03.119] player as far as the general public was [01:53:05.679] concerned was um um air force [01:53:09.520] intelligence within Iraq. [01:53:12.159] >> But you know there you know I had uh [01:53:15.280] interactions with various [01:53:18.560] uh sort of AIO agents trying to get [01:53:22.639] their take on what on various individual [01:53:26.320] cases like the jury film. Um but again [01:53:30.639] it was all ad hoc and bit hit and miss. [01:53:34.159] >> Um and [01:53:36.320] there’s a long list of even just with [01:53:39.040] Asia as controversial as it is a list of [01:53:42.480] items that they were involved with. Um [01:53:45.840] you know for example the um uh the [01:53:49.119] people that looked after the Petro [01:53:50.560] family for those who don’t understand [01:53:51.840] who the Petro people were uh husband and [01:53:55.440] wife spies in the Russian embassy. um [01:53:58.719] they defected back in the the late in in [01:54:02.719] the mid-50s and it became a real [01:54:05.040] controversial case and uh the Asia agent [01:54:08.960] that looked after [01:54:10.880] uh the Petro when um the Melbourne [01:54:14.480] Olympics were on, they thought it was [01:54:17.440] possible that the Russian intelligence [01:54:20.080] agents were going to try and take back u [01:54:22.960] the Petro by by kidnapping them. So they [01:54:26.400] shipped them off to uh um another family [01:54:30.560] uh uh an Asia agent family [01:54:34.880] uh in uh near the Gold Coast. It was the [01:54:37.840] subject of a another nice book I think [01:54:40.239] somewhere I’ve got here. Um yeah, with [01:54:42.719] my little eye uh by Sandra Hogan. It [01:54:46.000] talks about u uh basically uh Daly Doy [01:54:50.400] who was the age of Asian. I I couldn’t [01:54:52.480] name him publicly because uh all [01:54:55.599] Australians are subject to the AIO act. [01:54:57.520] You can’t name an AIO agent unless [01:54:59.760] they’ve named themselves or [01:55:01.840] >> that kind of thing. And when that book [01:55:04.080] came out, it was I was quite dismayed to [01:55:06.880] see his name. So I already I I did know [01:55:08.800] his name. Uh it was given to me and uh [01:55:12.080] it was uh uh yeah, but it was [01:55:15.679] frustrating that that I couldn’t do it. [01:55:17.679] I couldn’t name him because I didn’t [01:55:19.520] >> I didn’t want to spend time. [01:55:21.679] >> You didn’t want to get into trouble for [01:55:23.360] doxing [01:55:24.960] when [01:55:26.000] >> I might have been provided alternative [01:55:27.679] accommodation like a a federal jail. [01:55:31.280] >> Exactly. Right. The cold gold cell of a [01:55:34.480] cold floor the floor of a cell. So if [01:55:38.239] and just the reason why I asked this [01:55:40.000] question like if we come back so RAPH [01:55:41.920] looking after reports from the public [01:55:44.320] aviation sector and so department of [01:55:46.480] supply became involved when sightings [01:55:49.199] occurred and correct me if I’m wrong [01:55:50.960] occurred near facilities that were under [01:55:53.119] its control like Woomer missile ranges [01:55:55.760] nuclear test sites and defense research [01:55:57.760] establishments would that be a [01:55:59.840] >> and that’s what he tried to formalize [01:56:01.599] was that more clandestine side of the [01:56:05.280] military intelligence structure IE that [01:56:07.440] was contributed to by the likes of guys [01:56:10.239] like John Barren and company um George [01:56:13.520] Barlo [01:56:14.560] >> and they were interested they were they [01:56:16.880] were actively interested up to a point [01:56:18.480] that they were willing to support [01:56:20.560] Harry’s idea of a rapid intervention [01:56:22.639] team but then all got killed off when uh [01:56:26.080] Harry went over to Perth to investigate [01:56:28.320] UFOs over there during 1969 [01:56:31.679] and uh the problem was um he was a bit [01:56:35.520] hyperritical [01:56:36.960] of Dappy and the lack of support that on [01:56:40.159] the ground [01:56:41.920] um air force people got that were [01:56:44.960] required to investigate UFOs. They had [01:56:46.719] to use their own cars, all that kind of [01:56:48.719] stuff. [01:56:49.599] >> And u Harry felt that we should be doing [01:56:52.320] it a lot better. But unfortunately the [01:56:55.840] director of air force intelligence of [01:56:57.440] the day I think it was Rston I think [01:56:59.840] from memory um was not too happy to see [01:57:02.639] that comment [01:57:03.760] >> and the the access that uh JO had [01:57:07.599] through Harry Turner of the Daffy files [01:57:10.560] was cut off at that time. [01:57:13.280] >> So would it be would it be typical for [01:57:15.920] Raph and the Department of Supply to [01:57:18.800] investigate the same case? [01:57:22.560] Uh [01:57:24.639] the only person that was really doing [01:57:26.239] active in well investigations of the [01:57:29.199] sort would have been Harry Turner. Uh [01:57:32.239] >> the reason that question Yeah. So the [01:57:34.719] reason I ask that question, it makes me [01:57:36.159] wonder, you know, we’ve heard on [01:57:38.800] numerous occasion occasions now that [01:57:41.360] there was a representative for the [01:57:44.960] Department of Supply that investigated [01:57:46.880] and and put together a comprehensive [01:57:49.599] report on Westo. So, if it was the [01:57:52.000] Department of Supply [01:57:54.000] that did investigate and compile a [01:57:55.760] report, can we infer anything from the [01:57:57.840] fact that it was the Department of [01:57:59.920] Supply that investigated West based on [01:58:03.440] the fact that they were looking at [01:58:05.119] sightings near facilities under their [01:58:06.800] control, missile ranges, nuclear test [01:58:09.040] sites, and defense research [01:58:10.400] establishments? [01:58:12.000] >> Yeah. Well, I I think there’s pretty [01:58:13.760] good evidence for that. Um but um we [01:58:17.520] don’t have access to the report. You [01:58:19.199] know, it’s allegedly [01:58:20.719] >> speculate held and uh it was uh burnt [01:58:24.400] upon the instructions of uh the guy’s [01:58:27.119] wife and uh um that he had given to his [01:58:31.280] wife upon his death to destroy the copy [01:58:33.840] that he had. Now, um it would be nice to [01:58:37.760] have access to [01:58:38.880] >> um would it does it seem odd to you that [01:58:41.679] it was the Department of Supply, if in [01:58:43.760] fact that’s true, it was Department of [01:58:45.679] Supply that was doing a report on the [01:58:49.360] public sighting above West. [01:58:53.040] Um, [01:58:55.760] yeah, given that it was 1966, things [01:58:58.000] were getting out of hand a fair bit and [01:59:01.040] basically there are documents within the [01:59:02.960] RWAF files that highlight the fact that [01:59:06.080] the RWF themselves were trying to get [01:59:08.320] rid of the UFO problem. Um, there was a [01:59:11.360] lot of uh a big state of flux and those [01:59:15.760] that within the military structure that [01:59:17.920] were interested in UFOs would take the [01:59:20.560] opportunity to do it. But it seems in [01:59:22.320] the West case that the gentleman [01:59:24.320] concerned was asked to investigate, [01:59:28.000] obliged and directed to investigate it, [01:59:30.639] >> right? [01:59:30.880] >> And it would be fascinating to have [01:59:32.719] access to that report. [01:59:35.119] >> So Michael, we could still try to amass [01:59:38.560] as much information we can have on that [01:59:40.960] and make further [01:59:42.239] >> Well, that be the holy grail, wouldn’t [01:59:43.599] it? On the West Coast, [01:59:45.520] >> I would be surprised if there’s uh all [01:59:48.800] the copies are lost. I doubt if they all [01:59:51.760] would have gone off um to America, [01:59:55.520] >> but maybe [01:59:57.280] eyeing America for the West Files is an [02:00:00.239] ongoing matter. [02:00:02.800] >> Yeah. Well, it’s like um trying [02:00:05.119] >> you never know what might drop in a [02:00:06.719] >> needle needle a hay stack or find a [02:00:09.280] needle in a hay stack. A needle. Well, [02:00:11.440] that needle might be found in amongst [02:00:14.320] the rather incoherent and disorganized [02:00:16.960] efforts that Trump’s doing with regard [02:00:18.719] to [02:00:19.679] >> revealing someone else. [02:00:20.639] >> Wouldn’t that be nice if if we saw come [02:00:23.040] out on West? [02:00:28.239] >> Yeah, absolutely. I tell you what, I [02:00:30.400] think everyone and the witnesses can [02:00:31.840] finally rejoice that there’s finally [02:00:33.840] some documentary evidence. But well, [02:00:35.520] let’s have a look at now. Um, so you had [02:00:40.080] uh maybe just tee this up for folks. Um, [02:00:43.119] how did the in 2006 you had an [02:00:46.159] opportunity to go down to Westall uh [02:00:48.960] with Shane Ryan, George Simpson, and and [02:00:51.119] meet a number of the primary witnesses, [02:00:54.560] many of which had not come forward, had [02:00:57.280] not been uh known of before. So, how did [02:01:00.080] that come about? Was that as a result of [02:01:04.159] >> the way 66? Yeah, it was the early [02:01:08.639] preparations o of the the West Hall 66 [02:01:11.760] thing and the the beginning of the [02:01:14.239] preliminary filming and we weren’t [02:01:16.320] directly involved with that. But uh we [02:01:18.320] saw as an opportunity um to uh come to [02:01:22.000] that that reunion because it was the [02:01:24.480] first time really that that large number [02:01:26.800] of people had come together about it. [02:01:29.440] And uh so it was a great opportunity to [02:01:32.560] uh go along and and meet a lot of the [02:01:34.239] witnesses and and uh I I I did uh [02:01:38.320] interviewed various witnesses prior to [02:01:40.639] that, but it was all hit and miss um [02:01:44.000] because it was the pre- internet age, [02:01:47.360] but with uh 2006 um it really came [02:01:52.000] together, which was really good. and and [02:01:54.880] one of the witnesses that you met and [02:01:57.199] interviewed briefly that day was the [02:01:59.679] author of the Clayton calendar, the [02:02:02.719] anonymous entry that [02:02:05.199] >> Yeah. We won’t [02:02:08.480] >> Yeah. Um so, you know, obviously that [02:02:11.199] individual wants to rename anonymous [02:02:12.719] other than his uh first name and that’s [02:02:14.800] fair enough. But um I found um that [02:02:18.800] interview to be an interesting one [02:02:20.480] because uh it was the first time that we [02:02:23.280] had heard from that individual. So let’s [02:02:25.440] play maybe this um this clip. [02:02:29.520] >> You to introduce yourselves and and uh [02:02:32.719] explain your involvement please. [02:02:35.520] >> Well, I’ve changed my name since but at [02:02:37.040] that stage it was my name is Jeff [02:02:39.280] >> and I was in year nine. [02:02:41.440] >> Right. [02:02:42.719] and uh myself and a whole bunch of other [02:02:45.360] people were out on the oval right [02:02:47.840] >> the whistle high school right at the [02:02:49.599] back and over the pine trees here we saw [02:02:52.239] this uh silver cigar looking thing just [02:02:55.760] going like this [02:02:56.480] >> did you see it at morning recess time [02:02:58.320] yourself so you actually [02:02:59.360] >> it’s a bit hazy when I I think late [02:03:01.119] morning from [02:03:01.679] >> memory [02:03:03.360] something like that [02:03:03.840] >> so you weren’t in classroom at the time [02:03:05.280] you actually out [02:03:06.080] >> yeah I I I think I was up at the other [02:03:08.639] end of the oval and then I saw people [02:03:10.480] moving down to the far end So we all [02:03:12.159] just ran down there. [02:03:13.199] >> Right. Right. Okay. [02:03:14.880] >> But I think the I mean we know what we [02:03:17.599] saw and people for years just well not [02:03:21.040] not really for years just shortly after [02:03:22.480] you just everybody ridiculed you. So you [02:03:24.480] just sort of okay show. [02:03:26.480] >> Now you said you were you were [02:03:27.599] responsible for writing the piece in the [02:03:28.800] Clayton calendar and the Clayton [02:03:29.920] Calendar was the school magazine [02:03:31.760] essentially. [02:03:32.320] >> That was the school magazine at the at [02:03:33.920] the at Clayton State School over in [02:03:36.159] Clayton. and Karen who’s my sister there [02:03:38.800] was editing that [02:03:39.920] >> and we had a great teacher over there [02:03:41.599] who we’ both gone through when we were [02:03:43.040] in primary school Mr. Wall [02:03:45.040] >> and he said why don’t you write [02:03:47.599] >> what you saw and we’ll put it in [02:03:49.360] >> Mr. W [02:03:51.360] >> W A U G H. Okay. [02:03:53.199] >> I have no idea if he’s still alive or [02:03:54.800] whatever. And he said, “Write what you [02:03:56.800] saw.” And it was really fresh in my [02:03:58.159] memory. And a couple of days later, I [02:03:59.440] wrote it all that became the article in [02:04:01.119] the Clayton calendar. [02:04:02.159] >> Right. [02:04:03.280] >> So, who decided it was going to be [02:04:04.880] anonymous, please? Obviously, your [02:04:06.239] name’s [02:04:07.199] >> me because everyone would just ridicule [02:04:09.840] your relatives and everybody’s laughed [02:04:11.440] at you, made fun of you, said you’re [02:04:12.880] making it up. Did you get all [02:04:14.480] >> No, got [02:04:18.000] Oh, yeah. [02:04:19.199] Yeah. Yeah. I know. You’re making it up. [02:04:21.040] You’re a kid. You’re in year nine. [02:04:22.480] You’re making up stories. You say there [02:04:24.480] was 60 other people who saw it. [02:04:26.639] >> So year nine, you would have been what [02:04:28.159] age at that time? Year. [02:04:30.080] >> 14. [02:04:30.960] >> That’s third year high school basically. [02:04:32.560] Third year high school. [02:04:33.760] >> Yeah. Cuz I was year eight. [02:04:34.960] >> They called it form three. [02:04:36.480] >> That’s right. I was second form. [02:04:39.199] >> Yeah. Cuz I was 12 and a half or 13. [02:04:41.520] >> So what did you see when you in the [02:04:42.960] playground? You you were with other [02:04:44.239] other kids. [02:04:45.199] >> Yeah. It was a whole bunch. And they [02:04:47.599] were all kind of pointing and looking [02:04:48.800] and then you above I guess these pine [02:04:51.520] trees [02:04:53.360] this thing that just was like a silver [02:04:55.840] cigar. You know it sounds so cliche. [02:04:58.400] >> It was like a but it had a dart too. It [02:05:00.639] was circular. It was a funny shape. [02:05:03.599] >> It wasn’t a plane. It wasn’t a balloon. [02:05:05.119] It was a thing just [02:05:06.800] >> and then it it it just went like this [02:05:10.480] >> and it was it was just going like this. [02:05:12.000] >> Yeah. Otherwise, it was sort of going [02:05:13.760] >> and then it just went down. [02:05:16.159] >> But that was after the two planes [02:05:17.920] buzzed. Remember the two planes flew? [02:05:20.000] >> This was coming in from [02:05:22.320] >> That’s right. There were two little [02:05:23.360] planes. Well, you know, flew in from [02:05:25.840] either side and buzzed and then it sort [02:05:28.159] of went high and then come low and then [02:05:30.239] it disappeared and then all of a sudden [02:05:32.320] it come back up and went and it was gone [02:05:36.159] like that. Was it [02:05:37.679] >> and it just raced the Cessna just went [02:05:40.320] for dead. [02:05:40.800] >> Yep. And there was no sound. That was [02:05:43.119] the other thing. There was no like [02:05:44.400] engines or and it just went like up and [02:05:46.880] down and the planes from a rabbit or [02:05:49.360] wherever they were from. And it just [02:05:50.560] went [02:05:51.280] >> Yeah, it did. It sort of turned on it, [02:05:52.800] didn’t it? Like turned on it side and [02:05:54.239] just disappeared. [02:05:55.119] >> Just left. [02:05:58.480] >> So, I mean, I just found that to be [02:06:00.159] fascinating from you. [02:06:03.920] >> Fascinating account to hear from. It’s [02:06:05.599] clearly not um documentary style quality [02:06:08.960] uh footage here, but it was purely [02:06:11.040] research footage. Rosie Jones was there, [02:06:13.920] you know, with her producer and and of [02:06:16.639] course their camera people and doing [02:06:18.560] interviews, but there was also Channel 9 [02:06:20.480] as well. So, um um yeah, but I’m glad I [02:06:25.599] captured that because it captured the [02:06:27.280] >> Yeah, it’s the moment great great um [02:06:29.520] great testimony and some some because [02:06:32.079] when like you and I had spoken that, you [02:06:36.079] know, you had to kind of try and um [02:06:39.040] encourage people to start talking and [02:06:41.840] and wanting to open up because it it [02:06:44.960] really for people that watch the video [02:06:47.280] will see that there was really quite a [02:06:50.320] reluctance from people to actually even [02:06:52.400] start talking. Uh, and it wasn’t until a [02:06:55.280] few of them did start talking that they [02:06:57.040] they all started to get into it and open [02:06:58.719] up. So, you know, you you kind of [02:07:00.880] facilitated that process to get them to [02:07:02.639] want to [02:07:03.840] >> be comfortable to talk. [02:07:05.040] >> I think the main facilitators of that [02:07:07.440] event was was Shane and Rosie. Um [02:07:11.280] >> yeah, [02:07:11.679] >> but uh yeah, [02:07:13.840] >> I just uh felt it was a great [02:07:15.679] opportunity to uh do a bit of research [02:07:18.400] and inquiry and investigation at the [02:07:21.440] time because we weren’t going to get [02:07:22.800] that opportunity [02:07:24.880] too often and and and fortunately it’s [02:07:27.679] almost become an annual event now. So [02:07:29.760] which is good. [02:07:30.400] >> Yeah. And so to you you mentioned that [02:07:33.199] channel 9 were there for that event. So [02:07:34.960] let me play a clip that actually shows [02:07:37.040] the channel 9 team uh at at the event. [02:07:40.639] footage as well, the Westall footage [02:07:42.480] because I was in Mount Gambia for a UFO [02:07:45.119] conference in October of 1976. Also [02:07:48.639] there for the total eclipse of the sun [02:07:50.639] and there was a current affair uh crew [02:07:53.119] there present um filming us at the uh [02:07:56.880] the eclipse etc. And when I got back to [02:07:59.360] Sydney a few days later, uh the current [02:08:01.840] affair show had gone to air and the one [02:08:04.960] thing that I do remember fairly clearly [02:08:07.119] was footage of of a a school girl. I [02:08:10.719] don’t know whether it was you. I thought [02:08:12.079] it was Marilyn Eastwood. [02:08:13.679] >> Um and uh u showing a sketch of the [02:08:18.159] object as well. one. And because of my [02:08:20.239] background in UFO research, I kind of [02:08:22.400] immediately kind of uh zeroed on the [02:08:24.880] fact that I thought this was archival [02:08:26.480] footage of the West school case. And it [02:08:28.880] was it was included in the general UFO [02:08:31.679] piece about the UFO conference at Mount [02:08:33.920] Gamber in 1976. [02:08:35.040] >> Actually went to air. Well, we we uh we [02:08:38.000] have as you might imagine less resources [02:08:40.800] on the weekend as well, but um they’re [02:08:43.119] going to do our best as a couple girls [02:08:44.880] in our news library, but uh nothing [02:08:47.360] immediately came up on the computer, [02:08:48.639] which doesn’t mean it isn’t down there, [02:08:50.560] >> but it’ be good. Shane, I know Shane, [02:08:52.960] I’ve encouraged Shane to do this. Tried [02:08:54.560] to to get access to those archives. [02:08:56.719] >> He’s been trying to get it to so [02:08:58.400] hopefully by the time 6:00 rolls around, [02:09:00.480] we we have found it and been able to [02:09:02.719] transfer it on the tape to this film, [02:09:04.960] right? But we’ll keep trying. [02:09:06.480] Apparently, you just [02:09:10.320] been trying to obtain this mysterious [02:09:13.360] film for the last year [02:09:15.520] >> and we thought we came close a few weeks [02:09:17.360] ago. [02:09:17.840] >> Well, others others have tried to get it [02:09:19.440] out of channel 9 in previous decades as [02:09:21.679] well with no success either. It may have [02:09:24.159] vanished through the ether [02:09:26.000] >> and uh current affair were assisting me [02:09:29.520] recently in trying to obtain this this [02:09:31.920] original footage or the later one from [02:09:33.679] 1976 that Bill’s just alluded to. Right. [02:09:36.320] >> There are some people who get a little [02:09:37.920] bit conspiratorial about the footage and [02:09:41.840] uh that maybe it has been destroyed or [02:09:44.880] held back or is in some dark file not to [02:09:47.599] be released vault. [02:09:49.520] >> That’s right. [02:09:51.040] And of course that may be true, but [02:09:53.679] we’re hoping it’s not and we hope it [02:09:55.360] still exists and that it’s accessible [02:09:57.679] because one of the problems I think is [02:09:59.520] with this old film that’s not video uh [02:10:02.400] it’s been the the archive is very [02:10:04.960] haphazard. [02:10:05.599] >> Yeah. [02:10:06.880] >> So how how fortuitous that nine were [02:10:09.760] there to um to document that event and [02:10:12.960] they committed to having a look for it [02:10:15.040] at least they did uh [02:10:16.960] >> yeah indicate that nothing was found. [02:10:20.880] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure Shane and [02:10:23.440] Rosie were on to them as well, but uh I [02:10:26.480] thought I’ I’d stick it in as well and [02:10:28.400] hopefully get them to pay attention to [02:10:30.719] that possibility of looking for the [02:10:32.800] film. Um because you know, we had seen a [02:10:36.239] fragment of it anyway. And you know, the [02:10:38.639] general apocalyp [02:10:40.800] uh was it Kerry’s father’s um [02:10:44.239] >> Kerry Carrie Packer. [02:10:46.400] >> Yeah. you moved it from Melbourne to [02:10:48.560] Sydney was the rumor and what happened [02:10:50.159] to it? Who knows? [02:10:51.280] >> Yeah. So, we don’t really know. It could [02:10:53.440] all be apocalyp but it parts of it [02:10:56.719] clearly existed in 19 um when was it the [02:11:00.400] total 1976 [02:11:02.480] >> 10 years after West uh that footage was [02:11:05.760] still around. [02:11:07.440] And so one of the other gentlemen that [02:11:09.440] was at that event, his son was at the [02:11:12.639] primary school and he recounted uh [02:11:16.960] actually seeing the news report that [02:11:19.440] evening on the 6th of April 1966 and he [02:11:21.760] talks about it and he recalls what he [02:11:24.079] saw in that news report. So while [02:11:26.239] there’s no uh record visual, we don’t [02:11:29.360] have uh any record of the video footage [02:11:31.280] itself, uh at least he could provide [02:11:33.679] some commentary as to what he remembered [02:11:35.360] seeing. Joy. He was Joy. Um [02:11:38.960] >> Joy remembered it as well. [02:11:40.800] >> Yeah. So um but this gentleman, I hadn’t [02:11:43.199] heard from him before, so I thought his [02:11:45.599] um recollections were quite the [02:11:47.520] gentleman that that walked you guys down [02:11:49.360] to the graange to see if he could find [02:11:52.159] where he uh believes the uh the the the [02:11:56.960] grass uh marking was that was um was in [02:12:01.040] the news report. So I’ll tee that up for [02:12:03.440] people to watch. [02:12:05.520] was a primary school on that particular [02:12:08.719] day in the uh West Primary School and he [02:12:14.480] was about seven and he and other [02:12:18.400] children became terrified when somebody [02:12:22.000] described a silver object going down [02:12:25.440] behind the pines in the grain. and he [02:12:28.880] came home and uh relayed this to mom and [02:12:31.920] dad and don’t have to tell you what the [02:12:35.520] reaction was and uh never thought any [02:12:39.360] more about it. But what happened later [02:12:42.560] that night on the channel 9 news in [02:12:45.760] black and white Eric Pier see Eric later [02:12:50.480] made the story apparent about the [02:12:54.800] so-called UFO that had landed down in [02:12:57.599] the grain and this was accompanied by [02:13:00.560] footage of a circle [02:13:04.079] of grass that had been swirled around in [02:13:06.639] an anticlockwise direction [02:13:09.520] and the news finished and I went back to [02:13:13.840] whatever I was doing. I’m a maintenance [02:13:16.400] engineer with a bakery or was. And uh [02:13:20.639] the only time off we had was on the [02:13:23.040] Saturday morning. It was the Easter [02:13:25.040] weekend of that weekend. And uh [02:13:30.000] feeling rather foolish, I hopped on the [02:13:32.000] bike and rode down into this area. [02:13:36.079] So this area was very much like the [02:13:38.079] Graange is now, but it was right up to [02:13:40.239] West Road. It was just solid scrub. [02:13:43.360] Yeah. [02:13:43.679] >> All they were were just sand tracks [02:13:47.760] and there were no roads as such at the [02:13:50.960] moment. And [02:13:54.400] I came down to this area where all these [02:13:57.520] pine trees were. Never been here before. [02:14:00.400] We’ve lived in the area for about six, [02:14:02.079] seven years. But it felt quite eerie [02:14:06.000] because it was a foggy morning. And as [02:14:08.719] the fog lifted, the sunlight started to [02:14:11.040] filter through. And I thought, well, [02:14:13.520] what am I looking for? And just kept on [02:14:16.719] going right downhill until we came to [02:14:19.360] the bottom of the hollow. [02:14:21.679] And in that hollow there was a clearing. [02:14:25.760] And in that clearing was a great big [02:14:28.000] circle which happened to be 25 ft across [02:14:32.000] whatever that is in today’s 7 8 m or [02:14:35.599] whatever and the grass was swirled [02:14:37.520] around in an anticlockwise direction. In [02:14:40.239] the center was a dome, very much like an [02:14:43.760] old Volkswagen [02:14:45.520] hubcap, but the grass seemed to be [02:14:47.679] compressed and it was very tightly wound [02:14:52.320] together. And around the edge of the [02:14:55.119] circle, there were scorch marks like [02:15:00.079] about eight of them intermittently [02:15:01.599] spread around the perimeter. And just so [02:15:05.199] that if anybody ever asked me in the [02:15:07.760] future, I took some bearings [02:15:11.119] and looking to the north, [02:15:14.159] I saw the top of one of the high tension [02:15:17.520] towers, which had only been in perhaps 2 [02:15:20.079] or 3 years at the time. And immediately [02:15:23.199] behind me there’s a fence which divides [02:15:26.400] what is now the tip that at the time was [02:15:29.119] a very deep sand mine and was filled [02:15:32.639] with water. And the yellow sign on the [02:15:35.280] fence which I think you’ll find is still [02:15:37.040] there is danger where quicksand. [02:15:42.000] >> That’s right. And if you take the [02:15:44.639] correlation of those two points, that’s [02:15:47.199] where you will find where the site of [02:15:50.800] what I saw was. I make no claim to [02:15:53.520] having seen a flying saucer. I have no [02:15:57.599] claim to a UFO. [02:16:00.159] I don’t doubt that other people saw [02:16:02.000] other things elsewhere, but that is the [02:16:04.079] only thing that I’m aware of. No men in [02:16:06.639] uniform, no cars, no trucks, nothing. [02:16:10.000] because you it must have been a bit of [02:16:11.840] an effort for the TV crew to get in [02:16:14.560] because I remember noticing that the [02:16:17.199] circle itself wasn’t damaged at all. But [02:16:21.040] around it were tire marks and footprints [02:16:23.840] cuz it had been fairly muddy around the [02:16:27.599] edges and uh basically that’s it. [02:16:32.800] I mean that’s the kind of testimony [02:16:34.479] that’s you gold for for for a researcher [02:16:37.280] because you very vivid in his uh [02:16:40.800] recollection and depiction. So I hadn’t [02:16:43.280] heard that from uh uh you George was [02:16:46.319] kind enough to confirm his name there uh [02:16:49.120] Norman Bury. But you know fascinating [02:16:51.439] that the day after [02:16:53.200] >> it um it aired on channel 9 he was down [02:16:56.080] there and able to to to look at it with [02:16:58.880] his two eyeballs. [02:17:00.719] >> Yeah. I I was having a lot of [02:17:02.160] correspondence with Nor um prior to that [02:17:05.040] and after that as well, but sadly he’s [02:17:07.280] passed away. So, it’s I think awesome to [02:17:10.240] to have him recorded there talking about [02:17:12.000] it. [02:17:12.960] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. and and some [02:17:14.960] other folks that you interviewed that I [02:17:16.960] had not seen uh you because I’m only [02:17:20.160] aware of the the witnesses that are [02:17:22.399] maybe [02:17:24.080] at the reunion events uh year on year [02:17:26.639] and those that are maybe a little bit [02:17:28.240] more prominent in the um in the in the [02:17:30.719] media reports that have been uh been put [02:17:33.040] out over the years. But this was an [02:17:34.399] interview that you did with uh Lady Bome [02:17:36.800] of Genevieve and I thought her account [02:17:39.040] was quite u fascinating as well. So let [02:17:41.359] me play this one. [02:17:44.080] in terms there on the Wednesday and you [02:17:47.120] were in the school grounds, not not in [02:17:48.960] class. [02:17:49.439] >> I was sitting out on the oval with a [02:17:51.519] group of friends. Uh I recall it was [02:17:54.080] fair blue sky. It was quite a warm day. [02:17:57.599] >> Uh and we were just sitting out in the [02:17:59.120] sun chatting. [02:18:00.000] >> Mhm. And then a lot of the [02:18:03.359] uh student there was a lot of you know [02:18:04.960] sort of excitement shouting look look [02:18:07.359] and uh so when we looked up and that was [02:18:10.559] when I saw the UFO um and just watched [02:18:16.000] its movement. [02:18:17.040] >> So what what did you actually see? [02:18:19.120] >> What I saw was a a very elongated disc [02:18:22.960] type shape. [02:18:24.479] >> My recall of it is more that was white [02:18:26.719] rather than silver against the sky. [02:18:29.599] um it was a distance. It was that [02:18:31.840] distance between the oval and and the [02:18:33.599] pine trees [02:18:34.800] >> here on the grange. [02:18:36.719] >> The um the thing that held me fascinated [02:18:39.519] was its ability to [02:18:42.399] move in and out. Um could just go [02:18:46.000] horizontal, sideways, very fast speeds. [02:18:48.559] It was not [02:18:49.679] >> What kind of distance was it doing that [02:18:51.280] over in terms of uh portions of the sky? [02:18:54.880] It would have been [02:18:57.920] from very quickly the the width of an [02:19:00.880] oval and then it would move away from us [02:19:04.800] until you couldn’t see it. [02:19:06.880] >> Um, and very rapid and then it would [02:19:09.840] move very quickly and out and you’d lose [02:19:12.080] sight of it and then it would come back [02:19:13.920] >> right [02:19:14.399] >> somewhere else and its movements were [02:19:16.719] very very um fast, very specific. [02:19:20.880] >> Right. So, what what kind of duration [02:19:22.719] did you see it for? [02:19:24.639] >> The it was for some time. It wasn’t just [02:19:27.120] a couple of minutes. Um, it was long [02:19:29.040] enough for some students to go inside to [02:19:30.960] try and get teachers to come out. [02:19:32.639] >> Um, so it obviously went on for several [02:19:35.200] minutes, [02:19:35.679] >> right? And presumably, if the other [02:19:38.240] people are correct, that you’re there [02:19:39.439] during recess time. So, that’s usually [02:19:40.960] about 15 minutes. [02:19:42.319] >> Yes. [02:19:43.200] >> My recall is that we felt that the staff [02:19:46.080] then rang the bell earlier and and [02:19:48.160] called us inside before. [02:19:50.319] >> Right. Okay, [02:19:50.960] >> we assumed it was uh because [02:19:54.399] >> they may have felt we were getting [02:19:55.920] excited and some kids did jump the fence [02:19:57.840] to go up. [02:19:59.120] >> So I think it was a way of probably a [02:20:01.120] sensible way of containing so many [02:20:03.520] >> students. So you you’re aware of of [02:20:05.600] others that had gone down towards the [02:20:07.680] gra. [02:20:08.319] >> Yes. Heard discussion the following day [02:20:10.720] about what they saw. [02:20:12.000] >> Right. [02:20:12.479] >> But I didn’t go to the site. [02:20:14.640] >> Right. [02:20:16.880] So, there’s there’s more of her um her [02:20:19.680] interview in the video. I won’t play all [02:20:21.520] of it for people to watch, but again, [02:20:23.439] good good to hear from another witness [02:20:25.439] that had uh you know, clearly seen [02:20:28.399] something. And the way each of them [02:20:29.840] describe the movements of what they saw, [02:20:32.640] you know, clearly doesn’t reconcile with [02:20:34.399] a deflating balloon or uh or or you [02:20:38.240] know, aircrafts make noise when they fly [02:20:40.479] around the sky. So, you know, it just [02:20:43.439] it’s it’s just such compelling testimony [02:20:46.000] from these firsthand witnesses. For [02:20:48.080] someone like me that hasn’t seen a lot [02:20:49.600] of this stuff until you shared it with [02:20:50.880] me, it’s uh it’s fascinating stuff. [02:20:55.920] Well, I think you lost you on mute [02:20:57.680] there, Bill. Let me um see you’re [02:20:59.680] unmuted or you might have to unmute [02:21:01.520] yourself there. There you go. [02:21:03.280] >> Yep. Am I right? [02:21:05.359] >> Yep, you’re good. [02:21:06.160] >> You can hear us. Okay. Yeah. You know, [02:21:08.880] like I said back in the day, um I don’t [02:21:11.680] think the answer to West Tool is blowing [02:21:14.720] in the wind to [02:21:17.200] to um the the answer’s obviously [02:21:20.160] elsewhere as far as I’m concerned and [02:21:23.040] it’s probably unexplainable [02:21:26.640] >> potentially a bonafide UFO [02:21:29.040] >> and the search. Well, and that’s that’s [02:21:32.880] a perfect segue into Sir Joy Clark, who [02:21:36.319] then was Joy Tai. uh you know her if we [02:21:39.840] just have a look at you know this was [02:21:41.439] her written report that was provided to [02:21:44.240] the Victorian Flying Saucer Research [02:21:46.399] Society and this is uh grabbed I think [02:21:48.880] from an article that you had done Bill [02:21:51.200] where you know she goes into obviously [02:21:53.600] her address information back then which [02:21:55.200] is this is all previously been put out [02:21:57.120] in public but the time of the incident [02:21:58.960] 10:20 a.m. Uh yeah, appearance. Um I [02:22:03.840] don’t know if that word is one, but one [02:22:05.680] circular and then two UFOs flying in [02:22:07.920] very varying directions. Uh there was a [02:22:11.520] worring noise, round on top, flat on [02:22:13.439] bottom, silver. And then it talks about [02:22:17.600] any other features, flatten waist, high [02:22:19.280] grass for uh 10 yards diameter. So it [02:22:22.319] talks about some of the uh features. [02:22:24.800] Movement faster than some of the light [02:22:26.319] aircraft in the vicinity. The direction [02:22:27.920] was seted south. 15 minutes was the [02:22:30.319] duration. Weather conditions were fine. [02:22:32.560] A rough sketch of what uh it resembled. [02:22:36.080] Uh who saw it? School staff and pupils. [02:22:39.120] Were you excited? That was how she felt. [02:22:41.280] She wasn’t startled or calm. She was [02:22:42.800] excited. Other remarks: UFO uh turned on [02:22:46.240] its edge and disappeared fast. And this [02:22:48.880] was, correct me if I’m wrong, but this [02:22:51.120] was on the 7th of April of 66 that she [02:22:54.640] submitted this report. So, was it the [02:22:56.000] day after? [02:22:57.520] >> Yep. Yep. collected by the viewful [02:22:59.680] people [02:23:00.880] >> and and how and what [02:23:04.560] >> Yeah. [02:23:06.000] >> So you’ve got [02:23:07.840] >> Let’s go on. [02:23:09.359] >> Yeah. Yeah. It was collected by the uh [02:23:12.080] the Victorian Flying Source Research Uc [02:23:15.280] society people and I believe at the time [02:23:17.280] it included uh Paul Norman and uh uh [02:23:22.000] Judy [02:23:22.319] >> McGee [02:23:23.840] >> and uh yeah and there were photographs [02:23:26.399] taken by them of the site or at least [02:23:29.120] one of the sites. [02:23:31.359] And so what’s fascinating with Joyy’s uh [02:23:34.560] you know testimony in the interview I’ll [02:23:37.040] play now is you know 40 years after she [02:23:39.840] submitted this written report how [02:23:41.520] consistent her recollection is. I’m [02:23:43.920] obviously there’s a few subtle nuances [02:23:45.760] like the time of the event I think in [02:23:47.439] the interview uh about the play. She she [02:23:50.479] may have not got the time correct. um [02:23:54.000] you and those sort of details will fade [02:23:55.680] over time, but I found um her and and [02:23:58.640] she’s been remarkably consistent with [02:24:01.040] her testimony even to this day. So, I I [02:24:03.760] found this um this interview you did [02:24:06.240] with her uh a fascinating one [02:24:08.319] >> with three. [02:24:09.280] >> Yeah. [02:24:09.680] >> Not one but three. [02:24:11.760] >> And there was a big one in the middle [02:24:13.520] and there were two little ones on either [02:24:15.760] side. Now, to me, it looked as if the [02:24:18.560] little ones were sort of they were sort [02:24:20.720] of scooting off this way and that way [02:24:22.560] and and looking sort of like they were [02:24:24.240] looking around and the big one was sort [02:24:25.680] of just hovering, you know, just sort of [02:24:27.680] hovering and moving around. But the [02:24:29.680] little ones and then the little one sort [02:24:31.359] of all both went to the right and went [02:24:33.439] to the left and sort of turned sort of [02:24:36.319] on their side, I suppose, and seemed to [02:24:38.720] accelerate and then just just [02:24:40.479] disappeared, right? They just sort of, [02:24:42.640] you know, disappeared. But the big one [02:24:44.160] stayed there. And then a couple of light [02:24:46.479] aircraft came across around the back. [02:24:49.040] And the big one, it seemed to to go up [02:24:52.160] and down and it was moving sort of [02:24:53.920] erratically. It wasn’t going, you know, [02:24:55.680] was going zoom all over the place. [02:24:58.399] >> And then it it went up fairly high and [02:25:00.960] then it came back over to this area [02:25:02.800] behind the pine trees here where the [02:25:04.560] gries [02:25:05.439] >> and it came up over the pine trees and [02:25:07.439] then it just disappeared. Right. So it [02:25:09.680] sort of went out of sight for a while. [02:25:11.120] Now I can’t tell you timewise whether it [02:25:13.200] was 5 minutes, 10 minutes, whether it [02:25:14.720] was 2 minutes it because it it was sort [02:25:17.680] of unreal you know trying to sort of [02:25:20.560] take comprehend what you’d actually [02:25:22.080] seen. So time virtually stood still. it, [02:25:26.000] you know, it was one of those unreal [02:25:27.920] experiences. And then, um, next thing it [02:25:31.840] came back up and it came sort of hovered [02:25:34.479] around again. Um, went straight up very [02:25:38.000] quickly, sort of turned on an angle and [02:25:40.880] went and disappeared and was gone. [02:25:43.120] >> Right. [02:25:44.640] >> But so that was the last part of the [02:25:46.960] thing. [02:25:47.359] >> Yeah. [02:25:47.760] >> Yeah. So during the time that you saw [02:25:49.680] it, sort of how much of that time were [02:25:52.000] those two smaller objects in proximity? [02:25:54.000] only only for a couple of minutes to me. [02:25:56.479] Well, my you know recollection of it was [02:25:59.760] as I say everybody talks about one. [02:26:01.200] Well, I know I saw three and said one of [02:26:02.960] the other girls said the same thing. To [02:26:04.640] me it was like they were minders [02:26:06.800] >> if you want to call them minders. [02:26:08.560] >> Yeah. [02:26:08.960] >> You know that they were like perhaps to [02:26:11.280] me maybe they were checking out whether [02:26:12.800] it could actually come down or whether [02:26:14.240] it was safe for it to come down or [02:26:15.760] something. I don’t know. [02:26:17.200] >> Sort of thing. [02:26:19.359] >> Yeah. Uh with with with the um um [02:26:26.399] The sense you had as a child at that [02:26:28.000] time. What what kind of impression did [02:26:29.760] you have in terms of how [02:26:32.000] >> scared? But how high do you think this [02:26:34.319] was? [02:26:35.040] >> Well, it was probably I said it before [02:26:36.640] about the tree. It was fairly low [02:26:39.120] >> in when you think about it that because [02:26:41.280] they were very visible. [02:26:43.840] >> You’re standing there in the playground. [02:26:45.680] Um [02:26:46.319] >> well above the the tree up here probably [02:26:48.640] what 30 40T probably 50 meters. But if [02:26:50.800] if you held your arms arms length, etc., [02:26:53.120] how far would you have to have your [02:26:54.240] thumb and your forefinger apart to uh [02:26:56.640] sort of just cover the dimensions of it? [02:26:59.680] >> Probably, you know, [02:27:02.240] >> yeah, [02:27:02.720] >> it’s fairly large angular size. [02:27:05.040] >> The big one was big. [02:27:06.640] >> The big one, there was quite a [02:27:08.000] significant size different between the [02:27:10.720] larger and larger one. And as it was a [02:27:13.600] different shape to the smaller ones, [02:27:15.439] >> right? [02:27:16.000] >> So, what what was the relative size of [02:27:17.920] the smaller ones compared to the large [02:27:19.120] ones? probably well to me probably half [02:27:24.160] >> probably half. [02:27:25.200] >> Each of them were about half the size. [02:27:26.319] >> Half the size. Yeah. [02:27:27.439] >> And what kind of shape were those [02:27:28.720] smaller? [02:27:29.040] >> Well, the two the two smaller ones were [02:27:30.880] were um what you call I guess your [02:27:33.120] typical flying saucer size like a [02:27:34.960] saucer. [02:27:35.520] >> Right. [02:27:35.840] >> Right. With a dome and you know that [02:27:38.080] sort of shape as people think. Right. [02:27:40.800] >> And the bigger one was also had a dome [02:27:43.359] in the middle, but it was more [02:27:45.040] cylindrical like a cigar sort of type [02:27:47.359] shape, but it still had the [02:27:49.600] >> the dome thing in the middle, but it was [02:27:51.520] it was longer. [02:27:52.720] >> Right. [02:27:53.760] >> Right. Yeah. You were describing to me [02:27:56.080] earlier the impression that it had some [02:27:57.680] sort of kind of [02:27:58.240] >> Yeah. Like port what are you going to [02:28:00.080] call them? Port holes or viewing windows [02:28:02.319] or something like Yeah. around the the [02:28:05.120] perimeter was sort of something and they [02:28:06.800] were actually [02:28:08.960] now I’m not real sure whether they were [02:28:10.479] moving or not. I can’t tell you whether [02:28:12.160] they were spinning but they they were [02:28:13.600] definitely some sort of like you know I [02:28:16.399] suppose a window I guess. [02:28:18.319] >> Yeah. Now the manner of movement of the [02:28:20.000] larger object you described as being [02:28:21.520] kind of erratic and moving very quickly [02:28:23.040] in different sections of the sky etc. [02:28:25.200] Were the smaller ones moving that kind [02:28:26.960] of same way? [02:28:27.439] >> Yes, they had the same speed. Um they [02:28:29.600] were seemed to be working together as a [02:28:31.600] team. It was it was like one would go [02:28:34.160] there so the other one would go the same [02:28:36.640] >> you know the same distance the other [02:28:38.080] side. It was like they were either side [02:28:39.600] of it and one would move away so the [02:28:42.160] other one would move away and then they [02:28:43.840] would both sort of one would come back [02:28:45.520] or come for and they would both sort of [02:28:47.200] like they were doing it in a pattern. [02:28:48.800] >> Right. Right. [02:28:49.680] >> So I know that various explanations been [02:28:52.560] put forward to what happened that day [02:28:54.479] and some of the explanations have been [02:28:55.840] well just saw aircraft or balloons or [02:28:57.840] something. What what’s your reaction to [02:28:59.359] those kinds of explanations? Well, it [02:29:00.800] definitely was not a weather balloon and [02:29:02.319] it definitely was not any aircraft that [02:29:04.399] I’d ever seen ever, you know, was was [02:29:07.280] just something totally it just wasn’t it [02:29:09.920] was nothing I could describe as just to [02:29:11.600] say it was something that I’d never ever [02:29:13.680] seen before. Ever. [02:29:14.800] >> Right. [02:29:17.600] >> The UFO then occurs basically. What what [02:29:20.080] was the kind of the what followed in the [02:29:22.319] wake of that? Well, after that, of [02:29:23.760] course, when it didn’t come back, after [02:29:25.439] it disappeared, cuz we all stayed out [02:29:26.960] there for quite a while, and everybody [02:29:28.319] was looking in the sky and, you know, [02:29:30.080] and hoping it I think probably hoping it [02:29:32.560] had come back cuz I wanted to have [02:29:33.520] another look. [02:29:34.080] >> Did you you saw it actually go down as [02:29:36.240] well or? [02:29:36.720] >> Yeah, I saw it come down. I saw it go [02:29:38.640] behind the trees. It disappeared out of [02:29:40.319] my vision, my line of vision, and it [02:29:42.240] came behind the track and came. But then [02:29:43.920] it came back up again. [02:29:45.520] >> And that was when it came back up and it [02:29:47.120] sort of hovered [02:29:48.319] >> and very and said seemed to accelerate [02:29:50.560] at very high speed very quickly. Just [02:29:52.560] went straight up, [02:29:53.840] >> sort of turned on an angle because the [02:29:56.000] bottom of it was quite sunny and there [02:29:58.160] was a big gleam off the bottom, you [02:29:59.920] know, like the sun had hit the bottom, [02:30:01.680] the flat base of it when it had actually [02:30:04.000] turned on and just gone and it was gone. [02:30:07.439] >> It was gone. [02:30:08.240] >> Right. So, so what what transpired in [02:30:10.479] the wake of that? [02:30:11.200] >> Well, after that and of course because [02:30:12.479] everybody was, you know, all talk, did [02:30:14.319] you say it? Did you say it? No, I didn’t [02:30:15.760] see it. And, you know, it was all talk [02:30:17.120] around the school and all that sort of [02:30:18.560] stuff. And then I remember now, did the [02:30:22.160] police come then or was it after we’d [02:30:24.240] had the school assembly? [02:30:26.479] I think it was before the school [02:30:28.319] assembly that the media were there [02:30:30.479] fairly quickly. uh and the police came [02:30:33.680] and then I have as I said um before I [02:30:36.640] have a memory of car key people in [02:30:40.000] uniform some sort of whether it was [02:30:42.319] military I’m not sure but it was memory [02:30:44.800] of because there was a lot of cars a lot [02:30:46.960] of trucks or not trucks but a lot of [02:30:48.720] cars a lot of people sort of all arrived [02:30:51.040] >> but how soon after the event [02:30:52.479] >> well I reckon within 40 minutes [02:30:54.319] >> really as soon as that [02:30:55.840] >> yeah I reckon it was that quick [02:30:57.520] >> but like I said it could could have been [02:30:59.120] longer to be because it was all so [02:31:00.720] everybody was so hyper, you know, hyper [02:31:02.399] because it was so well, it was exciting. [02:31:04.000] >> So, presuming that was still before [02:31:05.359] school had finished. [02:31:06.319] >> That’s right. Because we actually had an [02:31:07.920] emergency assembly that afternoon. [02:31:10.160] >> What after that? [02:31:11.120] >> Yes. And that’s when Mr. um the school [02:31:14.319] principal had stood up and said that [02:31:15.920] nobody was to say anything about it, [02:31:18.560] that he didn’t want to hear any any more [02:31:20.319] about it. So, and if you spoke to the [02:31:22.240] media or anything, you would be in [02:31:23.760] trouble, [02:31:24.319] >> right? [02:31:24.960] >> But you had already spoken to the media. [02:31:26.720] So, [02:31:28.800] >> there you go. So, I mean, it’s great [02:31:30.240] that she provided some additional [02:31:32.240] context there for the the two other [02:31:34.640] objects that she saw because, you know, [02:31:36.319] the focus is always on the for a lot of [02:31:39.200] folks the one craft that they saw, but [02:31:41.680] you know, she clearly recollects seeing [02:31:43.920] three. So, and provides just such good [02:31:46.560] detail and description. That’s a I guess [02:31:48.640] the the kind of you stuff that any good [02:31:51.600] researcher craves is to have that level [02:31:53.840] of detail even 40 years after. [02:31:57.040] >> Yeah. [02:31:58.160] >> Yeah. [02:31:59.840] Yeah, it’s an impressive uh series of [02:32:03.200] interviews and um you know I I I think [02:32:07.120] um memory is fallible but uh there’s [02:32:10.640] been a fairly interesting degree of [02:32:12.720] consistency over the decades and um you [02:32:15.840] know I they’re all credible witnesses as [02:32:18.560] far as I’m concerned. [02:32:20.399] >> Yeah, I I would completely agree. Um [02:32:24.319] >> I feel sorry for Joy have getting [02:32:26.720] detention. Yeah, I I’m sure it was well [02:32:30.640] worth it. Well worth it in the end. Um, [02:32:33.600] couple of questions before I just wanted [02:32:35.120] to get to closing things up. Um, [02:32:38.479] question Beex asks, “Bill, um, do you [02:32:40.880] know if Harry Turner has or had any [02:32:43.120] patents on technology he invented?” [02:32:46.720] >> Uh, [02:32:48.319] no, no, no, no. The uh person that did [02:32:52.160] have patents that they tried to patent [02:32:55.439] was um the RF investigator of the fairly [02:33:00.720] famous Cressy sighting from 1960. Um his [02:33:05.680] name escapes me at the moment, but he [02:33:07.439] did actually create some or try to [02:33:10.080] create some patents based on uh his [02:33:12.800] interpretation of data that he collected [02:33:14.720] from the Chrissy case. [02:33:16.319] >> All right. [02:33:16.720] >> Of a flying sporter. So, [02:33:19.200] >> which is interesting. Um, short order [02:33:21.359] cooks, are you doing any presentations [02:33:23.040] in New South Wales this year that are [02:33:25.280] public events? [02:33:27.280] >> Uh, not that I’m aware of at this stage. [02:33:30.479] >> Not yet. [02:33:31.200] >> Up hopefully in August if it all comes [02:33:34.080] together. Good. [02:33:35.680] >> Fingers crossed. It’ be great to be [02:33:36.880] there up there for up there with you for [02:33:39.120] it. So, um, and that’s [02:33:41.200] >> I’m happy to give presentation New South [02:33:42.960] Wales if somebody can organize it. [02:33:46.160] There’s a call to action for any folks [02:33:48.160] that are a member of the New South Wales [02:33:49.680] branch. Um, West, did the science [02:33:52.240] teacher ever mention American accents [02:33:54.479] where he was visited by three men? I [02:33:56.240] think it was two men, one Australian Air [02:33:58.080] Force uniform. Uh, the other one was in [02:34:00.720] civilian attire. Um, [02:34:04.000] uh, yeah, leave that one for you, Bill. [02:34:05.680] I’m not sure um if if Andrew Green would [02:34:08.560] have commented on people with American [02:34:10.080] accents. [02:34:11.200] >> Yeah, I I never uh interviewed Andrew, [02:34:14.080] unfortunately. So, [02:34:16.800] >> all right. Well, look, let’s as we kind [02:34:18.479] of um [02:34:20.640] >> and it was great that Ross was able to [02:34:22.080] get him on camera uh in the end a couple [02:34:24.479] years ago uh for seven spotlight um [02:34:27.520] before sadly he passed away last year. [02:34:30.000] But um what I thought would be of [02:34:31.920] interest to share with folks before we [02:34:33.680] kind of wrap things up is I had a [02:34:36.399] document uh released to me today through [02:34:40.640] the Freedom of Information Act uh [02:34:43.120] pertaining to Westall. Now don’t get too [02:34:45.680] excited if if anything this will [02:34:47.200] probably piss you off a little bit. Uh [02:34:49.040] but um you all may remember that those [02:34:52.319] of you that saw the Australian story [02:34:54.640] episode [02:34:56.880] uh back in um which let me just play [02:34:58.960] this uh again. I’ll share my screen [02:35:01.040] again. So on the 6th of April to mark [02:35:04.160] the 60th anniversary uh ABC on their [02:35:06.800] Australian story program put out a [02:35:10.240] episode on the Westall incident and the [02:35:13.760] very last screen or the very last thing [02:35:16.160] that is shown in that episode is this [02:35:18.479] disclaimer. So Australian story asked [02:35:20.640] the def department of defense if it had [02:35:22.479] any records about the West incident [02:35:24.880] including in relation to research and [02:35:26.399] development. It declined to respond. So [02:35:29.120] following that airing of that episode on [02:35:31.439] the 6th of April of this year, I [02:35:33.760] submitted a foyer request to defense [02:35:37.359] media, which is who the media reach out [02:35:39.840] to if they’ve got a query that they want [02:35:42.319] media to uh provide uh official comment [02:35:45.439] on. And so I submitted a [02:35:48.880] request uh and I’ll just I won’t read [02:35:51.359] through the whole thing because it’s you [02:35:52.720] know basically saying that on 23rd of [02:35:55.439] March defense media responded to ABC [02:35:58.240] Australian story producer Rebecca Laam [02:36:00.640] I’d been in contact with Rebecca [02:36:02.880] declining to comment on the program’s [02:36:04.399] investigation into the 1966 West UFO [02:36:06.720] incident. This is subsequently confirmed [02:36:09.120] in the end credits of the Australian [02:36:10.560] story episode titled the West UFO [02:36:12.800] mystery which dated which aired on the [02:36:14.319] 6th of April. uh on consideration of the [02:36:16.640] above I wish to submit the following [02:36:18.319] requests. So I asked for copies of [02:36:19.760] documents created between the 1st of [02:36:22.000] March of 24th of March of this year. [02:36:24.160] Emails, internal memoranda, uh briefing [02:36:26.880] notes, file notes, basically [02:36:28.399] correspondence between the producer of [02:36:31.040] the Australian story, Rebecca Leam and [02:36:33.280] defense media and so uh and using some [02:36:37.680] search specific search terms. So they [02:36:40.319] came back uh with two documents that [02:36:42.960] they had uh located and this is what [02:36:45.600] they had provided. Uh let me just show [02:36:48.080] this on screen. So basically uh this was [02:36:51.280] Rebecca’s uh email [02:36:56.160] to uh defense media. So she had sent an [02:36:59.680] email the 20th of March. which obviously [02:37:01.359] is a couple of weeks before the airing [02:37:03.280] of the Australian story episode asking [02:37:05.600] high media team this email doesn’t [02:37:08.000] relate to the Middle East rather it’s a [02:37:10.160] about a social history story with a [02:37:11.680] military presence that dates from the [02:37:13.359] 1960s we’re running a film in 10 days [02:37:16.240] time Monday 30th of March they pushed it [02:37:18.080] out to the 6th of April which tells the [02:37:20.000] story of some unidentified aerial [02:37:21.520] objects in the air above two Melbourne [02:37:23.520] schools that appeared midm morning at [02:37:25.120] Westall secondary college and Westall [02:37:26.880] State Primary School back on 6th of [02:37:28.399] April 1966 UFOs in the old parliament [02:37:31.680] now referred in uh to intentionally as [02:37:34.080] UAPs. The arrival of the objects had led [02:37:36.800] to a strong military response in the [02:37:38.319] hours and days afterwards. This military [02:37:40.000] response was documented by hundreds of [02:37:41.840] witnesses from the schools and from the [02:37:43.680] broader community. American Air Force [02:37:45.680] personnel were also seen at the schools. [02:37:47.840] We have former defense people commenting [02:37:49.760] that it’s possible the objects have been [02:37:52.240] related to research and development from [02:37:53.840] the government aircraft factories and/or [02:37:55.680] the Commonwealth or aeronautical [02:37:57.359] research laboratory at Fisherman’s Bend [02:37:59.439] in Melbourne. A government report was [02:38:01.600] also prepared about the objects and what [02:38:03.920] may have gone wrong with the flights for [02:38:06.160] the then Department of Supply which at [02:38:07.760] the time was based in Melbourne and then [02:38:09.200] later moved to CRA and eventually merged [02:38:11.439] with Defense. My reason for this email [02:38:13.760] is to ask whether or not this report can [02:38:16.000] be sourced through the defense archives. [02:38:18.160] It was previously classified and whether [02:38:20.080] it can be released to us. Previous FOI [02:38:22.399] requests haven’t led anywhere and given [02:38:24.160] the passage of time, we were hoping the [02:38:25.840] content might now become available. Are [02:38:27.920] there any other comments you’d like [02:38:29.040] you’d care to make? Many thanks Rebecca [02:38:30.960] Leam, the producer. This is their [02:38:33.120] response to Rebecca on the 23rd of [02:38:36.880] March. Hi Rebecca, thank you for your [02:38:38.319] email. Unfortunately, we’re not able to [02:38:40.240] facilitate this request. So that was the [02:38:42.640] response that Rebecca received. Now the [02:38:44.399] internal correspondence between defense [02:38:46.720] media uh 23rd of March at 5:00 p.m. So [02:38:51.040] later that day after Rebecca received a [02:38:54.080] response at 459 internal correspondence. [02:38:57.520] Hi all please consider consider this [02:38:59.760] inquiry finalized as below. So that was [02:39:02.319] internal for defense media. [02:39:05.280] We also have um another email [02:39:10.319] that was uh earlier that day. So some of [02:39:13.200] the deliberations that were happening [02:39:14.560] internally following a receipt of [02:39:17.120] Rebecca’s request. Look at the subject [02:39:19.840] heading for ODPM for office of deputy [02:39:23.200] prime minister advice ABCTV Australian [02:39:26.080] story film query. Hi team as flagged [02:39:29.200] with redacted. We are going to politely [02:39:32.160] decline this one. If FO FOI requests [02:39:34.880] have led nowhere, we won’t be able to [02:39:36.399] find these docs. Let us know if any [02:39:38.640] concerns. Now, if they had flagged this [02:39:42.560] inquiry from Rebecca Laam to [02:39:46.880] potentially someone in the office of the [02:39:48.720] the deputy prime minister uh in the [02:39:51.200] office of deputy prin deputy prime [02:39:53.520] minister, there would have been an audit [02:39:55.920] trail. So, I submitted a follow-up [02:39:58.560] request [02:40:00.160] uh once I received these documents back [02:40:02.560] and basically I highlighted exactly that [02:40:06.000] saying that um you know on the 23rd of [02:40:10.240] March, defense media responded to [02:40:12.319] Rebecca Laam’s uh inquiry declining to [02:40:15.120] comment on the program’s investigation [02:40:16.640] into the West incident. This was [02:40:18.160] subsequently confirmed in the end [02:40:20.000] credits. Uh then obviously that was the [02:40:22.640] initial request. Um and then I [02:40:27.760] submitted a request for an internal [02:40:29.840] review um asking basically my original [02:40:34.720] request sought access to documents [02:40:36.560] created between 1 March and 24 March [02:40:39.439] relating to internal and external [02:40:41.439] communications decision-making processes [02:40:43.600] and final approvals to decline the ABC [02:40:46.240] Australian story inquiry regarding the [02:40:47.920] West incident. In the statement of [02:40:50.000] reasons, the decision maker identified [02:40:51.840] only two documents as fa falling within [02:40:53.840] the scope of the request. I contend that [02:40:55.760] department’s search was insufficient and [02:40:57.600] failed to identify further highly [02:40:59.280] relevant internal communications [02:41:01.120] explicitly explicitly [02:41:03.439] explicitly referenced within the release [02:41:05.920] material. Grounds for review, inadequate [02:41:08.479] search and emission of internal [02:41:09.760] communications. basically calling [02:41:11.920] attention to the fact that uh the [02:41:15.600] internal email had been flagged with [02:41:17.840] someone in the office of the direct [02:41:19.840] deputy prime minister’s uh area uh and [02:41:23.520] that there must therefore be an audit [02:41:25.280] trail of what that commentary that that [02:41:28.880] communication was regarding it being [02:41:31.040] flagged. So uh I submitted an internal [02:41:34.560] review request and there was one new [02:41:36.399] document that was located. Now you might [02:41:39.359] be asking why was that document not [02:41:41.680] provided initially? Well, it could be [02:41:44.319] for this very reason and this is the [02:41:46.720] document that they returned and prepare [02:41:49.760] yourself to be a little bit pissed off [02:41:51.120] because it pissed me off. Conversation [02:41:53.600] with I imagine uh ABC [02:41:58.160] 23rd of March at 5:36. So after Rebecca [02:42:01.920] had received her response uh uh when was [02:42:06.560] it? Um, oh sorry, no, that was um sent [02:42:09.359] 20. I’m not too sure because this is [02:42:11.280] 1217. There’s sorry 1207. So I’m not too [02:42:14.720] sure um what’s missing out of the cor [02:42:17.359] but basically saying speaking on tinfoil [02:42:20.160] hats. Well, speaking of tinfoil hats, [02:42:22.960] Australian story are doing a program on [02:42:24.880] UFOs. They’ve asked us for docs from the [02:42:26.880] 60s. Apparently FOI requests have led [02:42:29.520] nowhere. I’m going to decline. We’ll [02:42:31.120] forward email for your situational [02:42:32.880] awareness. Response 10 minutes later. [02:42:35.520] Yep, that all sounds good. So, it’s just [02:42:39.359] so unfortunate that, you know, the [02:42:41.359] stigma and ridicule that’s plagued this [02:42:43.200] topic for decades is still sadly alive [02:42:46.240] and well within the Australian [02:42:47.840] Department of Defense. They don’t give a [02:42:49.359] flying stuff about genuine inquiries uh [02:42:53.680] into something so significant as the [02:42:56.800] West case. And imagine if you’re a [02:42:59.040] witness and you see this response. Um, [02:43:02.319] you know, those years of ridicule and [02:43:04.399] being treated as crackpots and tinfall [02:43:08.000] hatters and conspiracy nuts just comes [02:43:10.160] flatting flooding back for them. So, [02:43:12.000] it’s just, [02:43:13.040] >> you know, such a disappointment that [02:43:14.880] that’s the current official position of [02:43:16.640] the Department of Defense. [02:43:18.720] >> Yes. I wish it was different, but uh [02:43:20.880] that’s the reality. Unfortunately, we [02:43:22.640] have to uh experience the level of [02:43:25.359] involvement in Australia is not that [02:43:27.840] good at the moment. [02:43:29.840] >> And it shows you that history repeats [02:43:31.680] itself to a degree. I mean, look at the [02:43:33.280] stigma and ridicule that plagued the era [02:43:36.160] >> of uh you know, the the reference to [02:43:38.640] crackpots in the historical documents we [02:43:41.439] looked at [02:43:42.479] >> and you know, nothing has changed, which [02:43:44.640] is really frustrating considering how [02:43:46.399] seriously the topic’s been taken um you [02:43:49.439] know, in other parts of the world. [02:43:52.160] Yeah. Yeah. [02:43:53.120] >> Thus is life. [02:43:55.680] >> Yeah. [02:43:56.160] >> No. Anyway, [02:44:00.399] >> yeah. [02:44:00.640] >> History will be kinder to the UFO [02:44:03.040] subject than the machinations of uh the [02:44:06.960] internal uh people within the Department [02:44:09.279] of Defense. [02:44:11.040] And I hope it’s in our lifetime that [02:44:12.720] that uh that is realized because it’s uh [02:44:16.240] I mean you know [02:44:18.319] >> I’m I’m in I’m turning 50 in a few years [02:44:20.960] so I want to obviously get I mean and [02:44:23.520] like anyone that’s been researching this [02:44:25.200] as long as you have. You want to finally [02:44:27.680] have some answers um you know for for [02:44:32.479] >> I I don’t need answers from the OAF or [02:44:34.880] the Department of Defense. I’ve already [02:44:36.399] had [02:44:38.160] myself in terms of my own experiences [02:44:40.720] >> back in 72 and 73. Um, the hills were [02:44:43.840] alive with UFOs back in New England [02:44:47.600] outside of university and I was taking [02:44:50.640] university people backwards and forwards [02:44:52.640] and uh they were having some interesting [02:44:55.680] experiences. So, yep. [02:44:58.800] >> That’s the gift that I’m yet to receive. [02:45:01.600] >> Doesn’t mean much to me. No, no, but [02:45:04.640] >> it’s good to know the details, [02:45:07.200] >> but it doesn’t matter much. [02:45:09.520] >> No, no, you’re right. And um I guess for [02:45:14.800] folks [02:45:17.600] are newer to the topic like myself only [02:45:19.680] been at it now for a couple of years uh [02:45:21.920] diligently, it’s just so frustrating [02:45:23.520] that their tune has not changed one [02:45:27.279] iota. So [02:45:29.120] >> yeah, [02:45:29.760] >> but we can only keep [02:45:30.720] >> Yeah. I think they need to be a bit [02:45:33.120] better informed about their own history. [02:45:36.240] >> Yeah. Yep. [02:45:38.080] >> But much of that is embarrassing. They [02:45:40.319] probably don’t want to know about it. [02:45:42.240] >> No. And you know, they sadly continue to [02:45:44.479] make these gaffs of embarrassing [02:45:47.120] themselves where they refer to it as a [02:45:49.200] science fiction. Uh you know, it’s [02:45:51.520] science fiction. It’s tinfall hatters. [02:45:53.840] you know, uh, you know, minister for the [02:45:56.640] minister for foreign affairs Penny Wong. [02:45:59.279] Is this a UFO problem? It’s just, you [02:46:01.200] know, just such [02:46:02.800] >> I wonder what they would have had to the [02:46:04.720] likes of Dr. John Farren and George [02:46:07.200] Barlow and and company. [02:46:09.520] >> That’s right. Yep. [02:46:10.880] >> It would have been very interesting. [02:46:12.880] >> Impressive views on the subject. [02:46:15.520] >> And the only thing that limited their [02:46:17.040] involvement was a lack of funding and a [02:46:18.880] lack of direction. [02:46:20.720] >> Yeah. I wonder if Harry Turner was alive [02:46:23.279] today, how a conversation would go [02:46:26.399] between him and the current um you know, [02:46:30.560] head of the defense science and [02:46:32.399] technology group, Professor Tanya [02:46:34.479] Monroe, who’s also a physicist. I’d be I [02:46:37.520] wonder how that conversation would go. [02:46:40.240] >> Yeah. Well, you’d like Harry to be a bit [02:46:42.880] more younger. You know, the Harry of the [02:46:46.319] 70s would [02:46:47.279] >> if he was in his heyday. [02:46:49.040] >> Yeah. [02:46:49.359] >> Yeah. Yeah. would be make for a very [02:46:51.520] interesting discussion [02:46:53.040] >> conversation. [02:46:53.840] >> You know, a lot of the people that were [02:46:55.279] working in the trenches within the [02:46:56.720] Department of Defense weren’t exactly [02:46:58.880] encouraged by the uh opinions and [02:47:01.680] conclusions of the upper echelons. So, [02:47:04.080] there was always a disconnect. [02:47:06.560] >> Yeah. Yep. Which is true in 2026, isn’t [02:47:11.600] it? such a disconnect [02:47:13.920] >> within those in positions of leadership [02:47:16.399] in defense [02:47:17.920] >> which is you know just such a contrast [02:47:19.760] to to to I mean you know all the the [02:47:23.200] song and dance despite the song and [02:47:24.880] dance that’s happening in the US you [02:47:26.880] still have a formal investigatory body [02:47:29.840] at the moment with ARO that has helped [02:47:33.840] um facilitate mandatory reporting [02:47:36.080] requirements for the services in the US [02:47:40.240] a you a data driven scientific approach [02:47:42.880] to trying to uh resolve cases. Uh and [02:47:48.800] you know you you got to applaud I mean [02:47:50.640] irrespective of what people think of AR [02:47:52.399] you have to applaud the fact that there [02:47:54.319] is a um there there is a real effort [02:47:58.479] being undertaken to try and um [02:48:01.279] understand the nature and the extent of [02:48:02.960] UAP. Um, you know, I mean, I I I don’t [02:48:07.439] know anything other than the fact that [02:48:08.960] there is a UFO investigatory body in the [02:48:12.720] United States, and there really isn’t in [02:48:15.040] any other parts of the world. [02:48:17.680] Well, there are there’s still [02:48:20.399] manifestations of Japan and others and [02:48:23.920] uh [02:48:24.160] >> to to to I would say to the extent of [02:48:26.880] the the US effort at the moment [02:48:29.840] >> um you know from a [02:48:33.279] >> from the traction that uh you know all [02:48:35.439] the conversation that’s been happening [02:48:37.359] since [02:48:38.399] >> you know 2017 and then the the [02:48:41.359] preliminary assessment that the ODI put [02:48:43.279] out in 2021 [02:48:45.279] uh you know it’s all led to there being [02:48:47.040] the establishment of a [02:48:48.319] congressionallymandated body arro. So [02:48:50.960] you know it’s the question rem is a um [02:48:56.080] an un unanswered question is ARO doing [02:49:00.080] uh a decent job. Are they really trying [02:49:03.760] to um execute on their mission? That [02:49:06.319] remains to be seen I think. But [02:49:08.080] >> yeah, at least [02:49:09.439] >> see a lot more scientific rigor and a [02:49:12.080] lot more detailed analysis, not page [02:49:14.640] after page of reductions. [02:49:16.960] >> Yeah. And and not just file drops of [02:49:19.680] videos that have no supporting context [02:49:23.279] and no data. [02:49:25.200] >> Uh [02:49:25.600] >> well, I can understand a bit of that [02:49:27.040] because some of that might go to the [02:49:29.680] heart of showing the nature of some of [02:49:32.160] the [02:49:33.439] >> Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. Uh, so I can [02:49:35.600] understand that, but it doesn’t require [02:49:37.520] that wholesale reduction that we’re [02:49:39.040] seeing in a lot of the current videos [02:49:41.359] because a lot of it’s already out there. [02:49:44.160] >> Yeah. Yep. And have you been generally [02:49:47.200] Yeah. Would you say you’re been [02:49:49.760] relatively underwhelmed by what’s [02:49:52.240] released thus far? A lot of it’s already [02:49:54.160] been in the public domain. [02:49:56.000] >> Um, [02:49:56.640] >> yeah. Well, that’s true. and and [02:49:58.399] certainly Harry’s has been in in the [02:50:00.640] public domain and um but it’s [02:50:02.880] interesting to see it pop up in the [02:50:04.720] third drop amongst Trump’s um [02:50:07.840] >> official drops. Well, I it’s not exactly [02:50:10.960] a wellorganized drop, but it’s [02:50:13.920] fascinating to see and I’m sure it’ll [02:50:15.920] encourage a lot of uh uh newbies to come [02:50:19.040] into the subject. It’s certainly uh [02:50:21.120] catching a lot of attention. Not so much [02:50:23.600] here [02:50:25.439] >> and not so much apparently amongst the [02:50:28.479] upper echelons of our own department of [02:50:31.520] defense which is a bit underwhelming. [02:50:35.520] >> I totally agree. Well um I actually had [02:50:38.160] one two final questions for you Bill [02:50:40.240] that I want to ask before we we go [02:50:42.000] because we’ve coming up on the three [02:50:43.920] hours. [02:50:44.240] >> Are we are we setting a record here or [02:50:46.479] >> we we No, I’ve gone longer than three. [02:50:48.880] Um, and James Riggnney will always be uh [02:50:52.880] be kind enough to remind me how long I [02:50:55.200] end up going. Uh, but uh my my [02:50:59.040] aspirations of getting these um deep [02:51:01.359] dives down to under an hour is uh is is [02:51:04.240] not going to be a reality. I don’t think [02:51:06.160] anytime soon. [02:51:06.880] >> We’ve got to keep it tighter. [02:51:08.880] >> We do. We do. We do. Um Oh, where is it? [02:51:12.080] I got my question here. Um [02:51:16.000] Oh, truth. I I’ll probably remember it. [02:51:18.800] Um [02:51:20.479] any thoughts on um Harry Turner being [02:51:23.439] read into the legacy program if it does [02:51:26.800] in fact ex exist? [02:51:30.080] >> Was he um [02:51:32.640] >> any thoughts on the potential of him [02:51:34.319] being read into it during his visits to [02:51:36.720] the CIA? [02:51:39.120] >> Um that’s what he actually directly [02:51:42.720] declined to talk about. um anything that [02:51:46.399] was [02:51:48.000] of a a clear classified nature, [02:51:50.720] particularly if it was coming from the [02:51:52.319] US, um [02:51:54.560] >> he would talk about it in general terms, [02:51:57.439] but he, you know, he he honored, I [02:52:00.080] guess, his um um restrictions that had [02:52:04.560] that been placed on him given his [02:52:06.720] position. [02:52:08.240] But um uh he certainly was a a huge [02:52:12.160] major player in terms of uh trying to [02:52:15.840] create a a a scientific investigation of [02:52:18.880] UFOs within military intelligence. And [02:52:22.000] >> it’s a pity that there weren’t the [02:52:23.600] resources put in place to do that at [02:52:26.240] least in a more obvious way. There might [02:52:28.960] well have been other things going on uh [02:52:31.439] through other other um sections that [02:52:35.200] were a little a little bit more [02:52:36.319] clandestine, but u yeah uh yeah. [02:52:40.800] >> Did that did that non-answer from Harry [02:52:43.920] um put a little green on your face or [02:52:46.479] was it to be expected that he would [02:52:48.160] stay? [02:52:50.080] >> Yeah, I fully expected that. So yeah. [02:52:52.080] >> Right. Yeah. [02:52:52.640] >> I didn’t have I didn’t have a problem [02:52:54.160] with it. I didn’t want him to uh you [02:52:57.120] know uh cause problems for himself. [02:53:00.080] >> No. Yeah. Good on him for staying more [02:53:02.880] come out on Harry and I hope to be able [02:53:05.359] to have the opportunity to write more [02:53:06.960] about him deeply in more depth. So um [02:53:11.120] yeah [02:53:13.920] >> we definitely we’ll we’ll get back on [02:53:15.600] and have a chat because uh I’m I’m sure [02:53:17.520] there’s much to Harry’s story that is [02:53:19.920] yet to be um yet to be told. So, um, [02:53:23.840] final question. If if there was one [02:53:26.560] question that you would love to have [02:53:28.399] asked Harry, but you didn’t have an [02:53:30.399] opportunity to do so, what would it be? [02:53:33.439] >> Well, obviously uh a more explicit [02:53:36.000] question about um crash retrieval [02:53:38.080] programs. Did he ever come across any? [02:53:39.920] But again, that would have been in the [02:53:41.600] classified sense. I real answer. [02:53:45.520] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [02:53:47.359] >> Yeah. He was a pretty high level player. [02:53:50.720] >> Yeah. [02:53:53.200] I wonder if there’s anything else in the [02:53:54.960] CIA files that will um be released in [02:53:58.479] the uh your future trans trenches about [02:54:01.520] um Australia. Be it’d be interesting. Uh [02:54:05.520] >> yeah, [02:54:05.920] >> to see if there’s anything else. Yeah, [02:54:09.600] >> for a CIA briefing of Harry Turner [02:54:14.479] >> in the United States. [02:54:16.399] >> Yeah. Well, that’s what we’re all that’s [02:54:17.680] what we’re wanting that that [02:54:20.479] you know, not not so much the uh the [02:54:22.800] stuff that you know has been released [02:54:25.040] before or is or is uh you know ambiguous [02:54:28.640] footage of [02:54:30.800] whatever something that could be pro [02:54:32.720] completely prosaic. If these claims and [02:54:36.640] of there being clandestine crash [02:54:38.800] retrieval and reverse engineering [02:54:39.920] programs are true, that’s what people [02:54:41.760] want to see evidence of, not just [02:54:43.120] Congress, but the public as well. [02:54:44.880] >> So, Time will tell. Well, look, Bill, we [02:54:48.240] we’ll we’ll do it at 2 hours and 55 [02:54:50.800] minutes. So, just shy of three hours. [02:54:52.319] It’s been a um a real thrill to pick [02:54:54.800] your brain. Thanks for um staying with [02:54:57.040] me for so long. And um I guess before [02:55:00.880] you go, um where can people find your [02:55:03.279] work? Uh if you want to give your blog a [02:55:05.520] bit of a plug and uh anything you’re [02:55:07.920] working on at the moment that is worth [02:55:09.920] uh sharing. Uh yeah, I’m still active [02:55:14.319] and still functioning and and uh the [02:55:16.720] brain’s still ticking over and uh yeah, [02:55:19.200] there are a lot of things I’m working [02:55:20.640] on. Uh but much of that I can’t go into [02:55:23.279] much detail about it. It all requires a [02:55:26.080] little bit more effort and a bit more [02:55:27.600] consolidation before I put it out there. [02:55:31.120] >> More to come. Watch this space. And uh I [02:55:33.600] put a link in the show notes below. If [02:55:35.840] people want to check out your blog, they [02:55:37.439] can. Um, I’ve put a link to just a [02:55:40.399] search on Harry Turner. So, that will [02:55:41.920] pull up all of your articles that you’ve [02:55:43.600] done on on Harry on your blog. Um, [02:55:47.359] >> yeah. So, so thanks again. Looking [02:55:49.040] forward to seeing you up in Cardwell if [02:55:50.640] you get there. And, um, appreciate [02:55:53.200] everyone tuning in. So, great to have a [02:55:55.200] chat. [02:55:56.080] >> Yep. Good night, folks. And good night [02:55:58.319] to you, Grant. [02:56:00.560] >> Good night, folks. See you next time on [02:56:02.080] another episode of the unexplained [02:56:03.359] rundown. So, thanks for joining, folks, [02:56:04.880] and enjoy your upcoming weekend. Bye for [02:56:07.120] now. [02:56:08.080] >> If you have enjoyed this episode of The [02:56:09.920] Unexplained Rundown, please consider [02:56:12.319] giving it a thumbs up, sharing with your [02:56:14.640] friends, family, colleagues, and social [02:56:17.279] network, as well as subscribing to the [02:56:19.760] channel. And if you’d like to be [02:56:21.760] notified whenever the Unexplained [02:56:23.520] Rundown goes live, premieres, or posts a [02:56:26.399] new video, be sure to ring that cowbell.

UFOpedia

Explorer

chalker-lavac-turner-1971-jio-document-2026

Bill Chalker × Grant Lavac — “Unpacking the 1971 Australian JIO UFO Document” (full interview)

Graph View

Backlinks