Ross Coulthart on American Alchemy — “I Located A UFO Base In Arizona!” (Jesse Michels)

Source: American Alchemy with Jesse Michels, “I Located A UFO Base In Arizona! — Ross Coulthart.” Jesse Michels’ YouTube. URL: https://youtu.be/V00WcEiKRAY (~1:51:44). Captured: 2026-06-09, full verbatim auto-transcript (timestamps). Provenance only; analysis on coulthart-career-and-claims and plasmoids-and-plasma-life. Plasma relevance: Coulthart describes a Secret Mountain (Sedona) “golden orb… gigantic. It pulses. It’s plasmatic,” explicitly invoking Vallée’s framing — “this is some sort of global control system” — and relays witness reports of objects “plasmatically glowing but at the same time clearly solid, structured… craft.” The plasma-and-solid-craft blend, midway between Vallée’s environmental-plasma and Grusch’s sentient-plasma-life. Also features the Nat Kobitz / underground-bunker / orb-with-Blackhawk-escort claims.

[00:00:00.000] And if you looked at a particular place [00:00:01.760] over Secret Mountain, you would see this [00:00:04.760] big orb being escorted by helicopters [00:00:08.600] rising from behind Secret Mountain. And [00:00:11.040] we watched at 1:30 in the morning, and [00:00:13.200] sure enough, [00:00:15.640] up comes this beautiful golden orb, [00:00:18.360] gigantic. It pulses. It’s plasmatic. And [00:00:21.840] so, where my mind might go with that is [00:00:24.720] that this is some sort of global control [00:00:26.520] system. [00:00:27.840] But an object about a mile behind us, [00:00:29.480] and it’s following us. [00:00:31.120] Let’s hope they’re friendly. One of the [00:00:33.160] first things that one of my sources in [00:00:36.160] that Georgetown pub back in probably [00:00:38.320] 2018 told me [00:00:40.240] was [00:00:41.680] it’s all about consciousness. You [00:00:43.720] probably met more people in and around [00:00:46.440] these programs than anybody else alive. [00:00:49.200] You are saying to the human race, we are [00:00:51.840] not alone. [00:00:53.400] We’re definitely not alone. [00:00:56.120] Anyway, he chuckled. [00:00:57.880] And I remember he just went something [00:00:59.400] like, [00:01:01.040] “Yeah, the Americans wanted that one [00:01:02.600] shut down pretty quickly.” Whoa, it’s a [00:01:05.440] multi-minute long video of this thing [00:01:08.120] flying in the air, and there are symbols [00:01:11.840] around the top. I showed photos of the [00:01:14.400] symbols to Mario Woods and to Randy [00:01:17.880] Anderson, [00:01:19.280] and both of them freaked out. We went to [00:01:22.200] his home and saw this sphere apparently [00:01:26.480] move under its own power. People have [00:01:29.280] been murdered. But I’m told that the [00:01:31.400] briefing that the FBI gave in Congress [00:01:34.440] really blew people away. I have no doubt [00:01:37.680] they think they’re going to get away [00:01:38.600] with it. [00:01:39.040] Uh-huh. And you know what? What? They [00:01:41.280] probably will. [00:01:45.640] I’m here with Ross Coulthart, who um I [00:01:48.840] have just so much gratitude to express. [00:01:51.600] First of all, uh we’ve been waiting to [00:01:53.560] do this for a very long time. I’m [00:01:54.760] grateful you’re in the US. [00:01:56.160] been [00:01:56.600] you. I you haven’t. Um but I’m also I [00:01:59.640] just want to express my gratitude cuz we [00:02:01.160] were talking before when the you know, [00:02:02.840] cameras weren’t rolling. I feel like I [00:02:05.080] am aerodynamically drafting behind you. [00:02:07.920] I feel like you uh have done so much [00:02:10.880] legwork in getting all these amazing [00:02:12.920] scoops and uh you know, often I’ll do [00:02:16.600] you know, a a follow-up interview where [00:02:19.280] you know, I have a lot of fun, but it’s [00:02:20.840] really I just have so much I I owe you a [00:02:23.360] debt and I think humanity owes you a [00:02:24.800] debt as well and so I’m I’m grateful for [00:02:26.400] you uh sitting down. [00:02:27.760] mutual admiration society, Jesse, [00:02:29.600] because I often say to my family, [00:02:32.240] “How the hell does he do it?” [00:02:36.320] You You seem like a jackrabbit. [00:02:37.840] Everywhere I see I mean you Have you [00:02:39.240] just come back from Colombia or [00:02:40.600] something? You’re doing a Boötes sphere [00:02:41.880] story? I was in Yeah, I was Well, I was [00:02:43.720] in This is what’s crazy and I know [00:02:45.560] you’ve experienced I’m sure all sorts of [00:02:47.640] stories where like it starts a certain [00:02:50.080] way and then you have another story come [00:02:51.520] up. So, I was investigating the these [00:02:53.959] Peruvian mummies, these tridactyl, you [00:02:55.959] know, three-toed and fingered mummies [00:02:58.240] from Peru. And then on the way back up [00:03:00.480] to the US, I stopped in Mexico City to [00:03:02.720] meet with Jaime Maussan, who’s a big [00:03:04.160] proponent of this. And 2 days before he [00:03:06.400] happened to get this Boötes sphere [00:03:08.480] Mhm. [00:03:09.120] sent to him or whatever and so I happen [00:03:11.959] to be there. Uh good to know. What’s [00:03:14.280] your preliminary assessment? Is it real? [00:03:16.480] Uh it’s so hard to say, you [00:03:18.280] Did you see what Did you see what my [00:03:19.400] friend Ronnie Vernet posted on Twitter? [00:03:22.360] I [00:03:23.080] Repeat it for the audience. [00:03:24.680] tank. So, So, there’s a particular shape [00:03:27.160] of fuel tank that is exactly 9 L and [00:03:30.360] and it’s got similar holes to the one [00:03:33.560] that Yummy is relying on and it does [00:03:37.320] have the same seam running along the [00:03:39.400] side. It It looks like a direct visual [00:03:42.720] match with a few changes if somebody’s [00:03:45.080] cosmetically altered it. It’s definitely [00:03:48.120] remarkable just the fact pattern. So, as [00:03:50.640] you know, [00:03:51.800] very well, whenever you take a stance, a [00:03:54.600] hard stance in this world, you get a ton [00:03:57.720] of flak. So, I’ll just give you my fact [00:04:00.040] pattern of what I’ve experienced, and [00:04:01.520] then people can sort of decide for [00:04:02.840] themselves. So, Jaime Maussan was given [00:04:05.280] this thing. It was taken in Buga, [00:04:06.720] Colombia. That’s why it’s called the [00:04:07.800] Buga Sphere. Um it was given by a guy [00:04:12.200] So, this video was taken by this guy who [00:04:14.720] is [00:04:15.720] um [00:04:16.320] I guess he like does like uh [00:04:18.079] mining and and metal detection [00:04:20.359] underground. And it’s a it’s a very long [00:04:22.360] It’s a multi-minute long video of this [00:04:24.960] thing flying in the air. You’ve seen the [00:04:27.280] video. And then he picks it up in the [00:04:29.840] forest, and there is a little gap in the [00:04:31.320] video, so that does beget a question of [00:04:33.560] like, you know, provenance and why is [00:04:35.720] there a gap in the video. And then he [00:04:38.240] has it for a while in his possession. He [00:04:39.800] ends up giving it to Jaime Maussan. [00:04:41.919] And there are symbols around the top. Uh [00:04:45.560] apparently, it’s an aluminum alloy [00:04:47.080] that’s, you know, three times the [00:04:48.680] hardness of what we generally use in [00:04:51.200] conventional aerospace. And then, maybe [00:04:53.800] the most interesting fact I can give you [00:04:56.480] uh that is new to the audience as well, [00:04:58.080] is I showed photos of the symbols to [00:05:01.200] Mario Woods and to Randy Anderson. Mario [00:05:04.480] Woods, 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Base [00:05:06.800] experiencer. And then Randy Anderson is [00:05:09.680] this guy who was taken underground, you [00:05:11.840] know, at um Crane Naval Surface Warfare [00:05:14.360] Crane, and was possibly shown some [00:05:16.160] off-world technology. And both of them [00:05:18.800] freaked out. Because it was like that [00:05:21.080] that these were the symbols that they [00:05:22.400] had both seen. Mario inside the craft. [00:05:25.040] to give you something cuz I’m not sure. [00:05:26.760] And again, [00:05:28.160] again, I am not avowing that this is my [00:05:31.160] opinion. [00:05:31.720] Neither of us are endorsing the Buga [00:05:33.400] Sphere. We are just These are facts that [00:05:35.360] we are looking at. [00:05:35.760] endorsing nor debunking. That’s right. [00:05:37.680] Um but I did what I’m increasingly doing [00:05:39.720] these days. I took a photograph of the [00:05:41.480] sphere, and I uploaded it to AI. And I [00:05:44.680] asked AI, in this case, I think it was [00:05:46.520] Grok. Mhm. And I said, “Can you please [00:05:48.760] decipher these symbols for me?” [00:05:51.040] And it came back very quickly and said, [00:05:54.000] “The circuit.” [00:05:56.720] And that I have to admit made me think [00:05:58.600] it was a hoax. Now, I’m not saying it’s [00:06:01.000] a hoax. Okay? [00:06:02.920] But what I am saying is that came back [00:06:06.280] when I put it through AI. But AI is [00:06:07.920] often wrong. [00:06:09.320] But what I love about AI is that it’s [00:06:12.040] ability to draw on symbology and [00:06:14.000] numerology and all of these ideas. And [00:06:16.240] it came back with this one phrase, “The [00:06:18.400] circuit.” Well, if you look at the top, [00:06:21.000] it looks like a little semiconductor or [00:06:23.000] a chip. And then you have, you know, [00:06:25.000] this begets all these ontological [00:06:26.280] questions of like you have, I think his [00:06:27.680] name is Patrick Jackson. [00:06:29.840] Yes. Who has You’ve done an amazing [00:06:31.800] story. Everybody go watch Ross’s story [00:06:34.040] with this guy. [00:06:34.520] And I I have seen one of these spheres [00:06:37.240] in a different domain [00:06:39.080] in the home of a beautiful man in Texas [00:06:42.240] who is a good soul. And I can tell you [00:06:45.880] it may be the case that his sphere is [00:06:48.320] now in the position of Brandon Fugal and [00:06:51.080] the Skinwalker Ranch show is going to be [00:06:54.160] paying to have that sphere properly [00:06:56.720] investigated. There’s a scoop for you. [00:06:58.360] That is [00:06:58.919] going to run it on my show. [00:07:00.520] Yeah, so Jim Marrs is a former rock [00:07:03.320] promoter who worked with Willie Nelson. [00:07:05.240] And he has a house in Texas. [00:07:08.440] And [00:07:09.720] we went to his home and saw this sphere [00:07:16.680] I have to be careful. [00:07:18.240] Apparently move under its own power. [00:07:22.040] And I mean, we were sitting with Jim for [00:07:23.880] hours talking. [00:07:25.600] And he was in a home where the floor had [00:07:28.440] just been fixed, so it’s perfectly level [00:07:30.480] and we verified that with a level. [00:07:33.680] And the ball is [00:07:36.280] sitting stationary on the floor. [00:07:40.080] And then all of a sudden it starts [00:07:41.280] moving and there’s a bar which has a [00:07:44.040] pole coming down onto the floor. It goes [00:07:47.000] up to the bar, and from memory it might [00:07:49.160] have even circled the pole and then come [00:07:50.920] back again part of the way. And there [00:07:53.720] was no movement. We were all just [00:07:55.760] sitting in a chair [00:07:57.440] talking and then Jim chuckles and goes [00:08:00.920] like that. And it moves. Yeah. [00:08:03.040] Was there something that came up in the [00:08:04.640] conversation that was it aligned with [00:08:06.280] anything synchronous? No, and so [00:08:08.720] when I ran that story [00:08:10.320] Uh-huh. on [00:08:11.960] Channel 7 Australia [00:08:13.120] Mhm. [00:08:14.160] they, as usual, as TV networks are want [00:08:16.919] to do, beat the living daylights out of [00:08:19.080] it, which is a journalistic term for [00:08:20.760] flogging the story until it bleeds. [00:08:23.320] And [00:08:24.560] it um [00:08:26.640] you know, there were all the promos were [00:08:28.800] fancy, and it made it look like we were [00:08:30.880] saying for sure that it was an anomalous [00:08:33.200] object. We truly don’t know for sure, [00:08:36.719] and the great frustration for me for the [00:08:39.840] past few years since I did that story in [00:08:42.680] 2021 [00:08:44.120] is [00:08:45.280] every time I went to Jim [00:08:48.160] and asked him, “Could we take it to go [00:08:50.280] and get it tested?” There was a lot of [00:08:52.360] resistance, [00:08:53.640] and it made me suspicious. [00:08:55.839] But then he agreed to go and let it get [00:08:57.480] tested. [00:08:58.720] But the problem was when I was trying to [00:09:01.240] find an X-ray place that does industrial [00:09:03.920] X-rays. [00:09:05.200] The first thing they want to know is, [00:09:06.640] “Well, what’s inside it?” And I’m going, [00:09:08.560] “Well, that’s why we want to X-ray it.” [00:09:10.839] And [00:09:11.920] and I I was expressing this dilemma only [00:09:15.040] very recently on a show somewhere. And [00:09:17.880] this gentleman rang me from Chicago [00:09:20.640] and said that he would X-ray it in his [00:09:24.080] industrial X-ray machine. And he had [00:09:26.400] some other type of machine [00:09:28.800] um [00:09:29.520] can’t remember what it was. Might have [00:09:31.040] been a CT. I’m not sure. Yeah. [00:09:33.400] And he would run it through that as [00:09:34.680] well. [00:09:35.600] And it was for free. And I went to Jim [00:09:38.320] and I said to Jim, “Jim, I finally found [00:09:41.520] a place that can test the ball for you, [00:09:43.440] the sphere for you.” Cuz one of the [00:09:45.080] things I get most a lot of the inquiries [00:09:47.040] about from our audience is, “What [00:09:48.440] happened to the sphere, you know? Why [00:09:50.080] haven’t you told us the story about the [00:09:51.720] sphere?” [00:09:52.840] And I was finally about to announce that [00:09:55.680] we’ve got somebody who will allow us to [00:09:57.040] do the testing on the sphere cuz Jim [00:09:58.760] won’t let us to cut into it for obvious [00:10:00.400] reasons. [00:10:01.840] And um [00:10:03.480] he told me, “I’m sorry, Ross. Brandon [00:10:06.160] Fugal’s agreed to fly out in his private [00:10:08.040] jet to Utah where he’s going to have it [00:10:10.680] tested in the lab.” And look, frankly, [00:10:12.680] I’m really happy if that’s going to be [00:10:14.560] the case for Patrick, who I know, [00:10:17.400] and um [00:10:18.880] and for Jim, who’s a beautiful guy, [00:10:21.680] uh to finally get an answer. And [00:10:23.880] Brandon, I’ve spoken to Brandon about it [00:10:25.640] and I’ve encouraged him to to do it. And [00:10:27.960] so, hopefully, it’s all going to happen. [00:10:30.240] Um [00:10:31.480] fingers crossed. Yeah, let’s hope. [00:10:33.480] That’s amazing. And I think Patrick, [00:10:35.760] because you were talking about the chip. [00:10:37.600] And so, where my mind might go with [00:10:39.760] that, again, I don’t know if it’s real, [00:10:42.400] is uh that this is some sort of like [00:10:44.960] global control system or something. [00:10:46.880] Well, Patrick’s theory is that these [00:10:48.800] spheres are part of a global defense [00:10:51.200] system by some alien civilization to [00:10:53.560] keep the bad guys out of Earth. Right. [00:10:56.120] And [00:10:57.200] I quite like Patrick. He’s a very clever [00:10:59.839] man. He has an eclectic intelligence and [00:11:02.400] he’s fun. [00:11:03.760] Uh I honestly don’t know how he could [00:11:05.760] know that. Right. Yeah, and so, I mean, [00:11:07.839] a lot of it is speculation and he’s got [00:11:09.640] type one spheres and type two spheres [00:11:11.960] and often there’ll be a photograph of a [00:11:14.400] plane and you do you see these spheres [00:11:17.760] around planes in UAP events. So, there’s [00:11:20.880] often [00:11:21.920] a big [00:11:23.240] let’s call it object rather than a [00:11:24.839] craft. There’s a big object that’s [00:11:27.000] clearly anomalous, sometimes beside an [00:11:30.000] aircraft, and then as you look really [00:11:32.440] closely, you’ll see these dots that are [00:11:35.120] these metallic spheres. [00:11:37.280] And when I did that story, I did that in [00:11:39.440] 2021 for Australian TV, it just went [00:11:42.880] nuts. It’s been seen that particular [00:11:45.640] story, if you add the two iterations of [00:11:48.320] the story cuz we we had to take one down [00:11:50.720] because of copyright issues with music. [00:11:53.120] Um it’s been seen over 43 million times. [00:11:57.800] And so I was getting phone calls, [00:11:59.600] messages, emails from people all over [00:12:02.080] the world, including I remember a [00:12:04.160] beautiful guy in Africa [00:12:06.080] who who told me that they were seeing [00:12:08.240] these spheres. And [00:12:11.040] what I what I can report is whatever [00:12:13.560] they are, [00:12:16.280] I do think I can say they’re real. [00:12:18.040] They’re a real phenomenon. Whatever they [00:12:20.400] are, [00:12:21.680] they’re metal [00:12:23.160] spheres with no visible means of [00:12:25.520] propulsion. [00:12:27.520] Dozens of people have told me that [00:12:29.360] they’ve seen them flying or moving under [00:12:31.560] their own locomotive power. [00:12:34.440] There’s no visible way in which they’re [00:12:36.360] moving. [00:12:37.760] And [00:12:38.960] I don’t honestly know what to conclude [00:12:41.320] about them because [00:12:43.560] I mean, I expressed the enigma by [00:12:45.800] telling the story. [00:12:47.400] But like so much of this whole story, [00:12:50.240] Jesse, [00:12:51.480] I don’t know about you, but I often feel [00:12:52.960] like I’ve got my eyes closed and I’m [00:12:54.600] kind of feeling in the dark and trying [00:12:56.320] to get an idea about what it is. And [00:12:58.480] then as soon as I’ve got the texture and [00:13:00.640] the feel of what’s been in front of me [00:13:02.080] here, [00:13:03.120] I realize there’s a whole other room [00:13:04.720] over here of stuff that I’ve never [00:13:06.320] gotten with my brain around. And [00:13:08.640] it it’s [00:13:09.880] it it’s it’s mind-bogglingly complex, [00:13:12.800] whatever it is. This episode is brought [00:13:15.000] to you by my favorite new product, Masa [00:13:17.560] Chips. Here’s a quick history lesson. [00:13:19.520] Before the 1990s, all chips and fries [00:13:22.240] were cooked in beef tallow. 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Part of what [00:14:49.280] I want to do in this interview is so [00:14:51.320] many people are used to seeing you in [00:14:52.960] the context of breaking these bombshell [00:14:55.320] stories. [00:14:56.839] I want to get to know the man behind [00:14:59.480] Sure. that, cuz you you you are often [00:15:01.280] the interviewer, and so how did you [00:15:04.200] were, you know, exposing corruption and [00:15:06.320] stuff with the surveillance state in [00:15:07.640] Australia, right? How did you get into [00:15:09.520] UFOs to begin with? [00:15:13.560] Like every kid, I was obsessed with [00:15:16.120] Doctor Who, and I I I loved the show [00:15:18.839] called UFO that was on TV. It was a [00:15:20.880] British series [00:15:22.360] um about malevolent aliens invading [00:15:24.960] Earth and there was this secret [00:15:26.520] organization called Shadow that was [00:15:28.320] defending Earth. But I’ll be honest, I [00:15:30.200] always saw that as fiction [00:15:31.840] and I accepted it was fiction. I never [00:15:33.480] believed it was true and even when in [00:15:36.880] New Zealand, where I was living as a [00:15:39.000] kid, I um [00:15:42.040] there was a really big UFO incident in [00:15:44.960] 1978 when I was 16 years old in a place [00:15:48.640] called Kaikoura on the east coast of the [00:15:51.640] South Island of New Zealand and there [00:15:53.720] was a cargo aircraft flying up that [00:15:55.840] coastline in 1978 in the middle of the [00:15:58.160] night [00:15:59.160] and the pilot and the co-pilot [00:16:02.080] had these objects [00:16:03.880] clearly in their view elliptical [00:16:06.400] metallic disc-shaped objects come right [00:16:09.040] up to the cockpit window glowing but [00:16:11.520] clearly metallic and then [00:16:13.680] go away again. [00:16:15.120] And um [00:16:16.760] what was interesting was the it was [00:16:19.040] another kind of Nimitz story because you [00:16:21.320] had sensor systems. [00:16:23.280] I found the guy in Wellington across the [00:16:25.960] Cook Strait who was the radar operator [00:16:28.360] on the night who’d seen these things on [00:16:30.320] radar. [00:16:31.680] And as the two guys who were the [00:16:33.720] journalists on the aircraft were [00:16:36.440] describing the objects say going to the [00:16:38.320] west [00:16:39.480] the radar operator John Cordy [00:16:41.960] was seeing them go to the west. I have a [00:16:43.400] strong target [00:16:45.120] uh 12:00 to you at 20 miles. [00:16:49.000] Uh I do we have a I also have [00:16:52.080] quite a good uh visual display at the [00:16:53.920] moment. [00:16:55.520] It’s showing lights. [00:16:57.000] Hey Sabre, there’s uh it looks like a [00:16:58.600] collection of lights. [00:17:00.480] So you had this [00:17:02.960] contemporaneous real-time confirmation [00:17:05.760] of solid objects moving or at least [00:17:08.360] objects that registered on radar [00:17:10.560] moving in the directions that these [00:17:12.079] witnesses were saying that they were [00:17:13.280] seeing these objects moving and they [00:17:14.680] were seeing objects that were [00:17:16.959] plasmatically glowing but at the same [00:17:18.920] time clearly solid, structured in their [00:17:22.280] words, craft. from Wellington radar that [00:17:25.319] we’ve [00:17:26.560] got an object about a mile behind us and [00:17:28.280] it’s following us. [00:17:29.800] Let’s hope they’re friendly. [00:17:32.040] I see our echo uh the [00:17:35.360] strong target [00:17:37.080] right in formation with you now uh [00:17:39.840] could either be left or right, but your [00:17:41.680] your target is double the size. [00:17:44.400] And for each of those people, it was a [00:17:45.960] transformative [00:17:47.600] moment. But what was really interesting [00:17:49.400] for me as a journalist was [00:17:52.840] I bought as a teenage boy the official [00:17:55.800] government explanation. [00:17:58.080] And I was doing my exams. I was really [00:18:00.120] focused on my studies. [00:18:02.200] There’d been the Valentich story of a [00:18:04.120] young boy called Frederick Valentich who [00:18:06.120] had disappeared in his Cessna aircraft [00:18:09.000] flying over Bass Strait in Australia [00:18:11.480] just a few months before. [00:18:13.560] And as somebody who was really already [00:18:15.160] very interested in the media, [00:18:17.200] I kind of bought into the idea that this [00:18:18.840] is all a big media beat-up because [00:18:21.760] there’s a big problem in the [00:18:23.080] December-January period. [00:18:25.720] It’s the Christmas holiday period. [00:18:28.000] The news is pretty boring, and so this [00:18:30.160] was obviously a story that the media had [00:18:31.880] leaped onto. [00:18:33.320] And I just thought [00:18:34.760] yeah, this is just a big media beat-up. [00:18:38.240] What was interesting also was that the [00:18:39.560] government had come out with an official [00:18:41.120] explanation very, very quickly which [00:18:43.560] said that these were squid boat lights. [00:18:45.600] And in New Zealand, there are these big [00:18:47.800] Japanese fishing fleets that go off the [00:18:49.600] coast with these gigantic lights, and [00:18:52.120] you often saw them as a kid, and they [00:18:54.040] were glowing on the horizon, and they [00:18:55.680] looked spooky. [00:18:57.320] And so the theory that was pushed by the [00:18:59.400] the New Zealand Air Force was that these [00:19:01.120] were squid boat lights, and the captain [00:19:03.800] the co-pilot of one plane and the [00:19:05.520] captain and the co-pilot of another [00:19:06.880] plane, even though they were flying at [00:19:08.600] 14,000 ft, they were mistaken, and those [00:19:11.320] objects were below them, and it was some [00:19:13.080] kind of refraction in the air. Blah, [00:19:15.200] blah, blah, blah, blah. It all gave a [00:19:17.080] reasonable tinge of explanation that [00:19:20.400] made everybody in New Zealand think, [00:19:22.880] “Ah, that was just a [ __ ] story [00:19:24.320] during the Christmas season. It’s all [00:19:26.160] over.” [00:19:27.760] For me, though, it was interesting [00:19:28.960] because much, much later, when I became [00:19:31.160] a journalist, [00:19:32.840] uh I was working for the New Zealand [00:19:34.400] Herald newspaper, and I met Sir Robert [00:19:36.640] Muldoon, who was the former New Zealand [00:19:38.520] Prime Minister. And he used to do these [00:19:41.160] convivial little chats at Christmas time [00:19:43.360] where [00:19:44.480] uh a young reporter, me, had to drive up [00:19:47.560] and interview him and talk to the former [00:19:49.360] Prime Minister about whatever he wanted [00:19:51.040] to talk about. And I decided, I don’t [00:19:53.160] know why, I knew he’d been the Prime [00:19:54.520] Minister at the time, [00:19:56.160] I decided to ask him, “What about that [00:19:58.160] Kaikoura UFO thing that happened when I [00:20:00.400] was 16?” And by that time, I think I was [00:20:02.680] about 19 or 20, I can’t remember. [00:20:06.360] Anyway, he chuckled. [00:20:08.040] And I remember he just let slip [00:20:09.160] something like, [00:20:11.280] “Yeah, the Americans wanted that one [00:20:12.800] shut down pretty quickly.” Whoa. And [00:20:15.640] that cuz I love espionage stories, and I [00:20:18.440] love, as a young New Zealander, I was [00:20:20.520] always focused [00:20:22.080] on books about espionage, and as you [00:20:24.600] referred to earlier, [00:20:26.360] one of the biggest stories I did in my [00:20:27.800] time in Australia was I revealed the [00:20:30.400] existence exclusively of the Echelon [00:20:33.240] communications surveillance system, [00:20:35.040] which is what the Five Eyes operate to [00:20:37.760] intercept communications. [00:20:39.880] And for the first time ever, um [00:20:42.200] I got from an intelligence service in [00:20:44.480] Australia an official admission [00:20:46.800] that there was a system called Echelon, [00:20:48.800] and it was involved in communications [00:20:50.920] surveillance and spying. And so, [00:20:52.960] I was switched on to that issue all my [00:20:55.280] life. I’ve always been really interested [00:20:56.880] in spies and espionage. [00:20:59.400] And so, it twigged my interest that Sir [00:21:01.000] Robert Muldoon was describing this [00:21:03.800] admission that there’d been some kind of [00:21:05.480] American intervention, but he wouldn’t [00:21:07.360] go any further. [00:21:09.320] And then much, much later when I was [00:21:11.200] writing my book, [00:21:13.120] I discovered that there’d been this [00:21:14.520] release of the New Zealand archives in [00:21:16.360] about 2011. [00:21:18.600] And it essentially revealed the detail [00:21:22.280] of what went on inside the Air Force in [00:21:25.120] New Zealand to try and fix this problem [00:21:27.400] as fast as possible. [00:21:29.280] And it was quite clear these Air Force [00:21:30.880] officers had been told, “Find a [ __ ] [00:21:33.320] solution as fast as possible. We want [00:21:35.520] this off the front page.” And it was [00:21:37.960] quite clear enormous amounts of pressure [00:21:40.120] was being put on the Chief of Air Staff, [00:21:42.240] the head of the Air Force, [00:21:43.800] by the Prime Minister’s office to make [00:21:45.600] this one go away. And hence the squid [00:21:47.960] boat explanation. [00:21:49.760] And then when I was writing my book, I [00:21:51.280] met Quentin Fogarty who’d been one of [00:21:53.520] the reporters on the plane, who by [00:21:55.680] complete chance his son Ben was one of [00:21:58.600] the chief cameraman at 60 Minutes, where [00:22:00.840] I was working as a reporter. [00:22:02.760] And so Ben said to me, “My dad was the [00:22:04.800] guy who was on that plane that night.” [00:22:06.480] And so I got to meet his father. Another [00:22:08.400] weird serendipity. [00:22:10.920] And another one of the reporters was a [00:22:13.040] political correspondent called Dennis [00:22:14.680] Grant of great renown later on in [00:22:17.640] Australia. [00:22:18.880] And Dennis confirmed all the story and [00:22:21.560] he introduced me to Bruce Maccabee who [00:22:23.680] was the [00:22:25.040] atmospheric physicist who sadly recently [00:22:27.400] died. [00:22:28.680] And all of a sudden I realized that the [00:22:31.000] story that I’d bought as a young teenage [00:22:33.880] kid, [00:22:35.400] that basically told me this was [00:22:37.640] [ __ ] [00:22:39.440] was actually completely untrue. [00:22:42.280] And there’d been a really elaborate [00:22:45.400] cover-up. [00:22:47.240] And that fascinated me. And it was one [00:22:49.920] of the cuz I actually started out [00:22:51.920] writing my book in about 2018 when I [00:22:55.280] left 60 Minutes. [00:22:56.920] I thought I wanted to do a book [00:22:58.560] debunking UFOs. I was arrogant and I had [00:23:00.960] this assumption that all UFOs were [00:23:03.080] nonsense. And [00:23:05.320] it was only a matter of time. I’d read [00:23:07.400] Nick Cook’s um Hunt for Zero Point, and [00:23:10.320] you know, he’d implied very strongly [00:23:12.200] that there was some sort of secret US [00:23:14.160] aerospace program. [00:23:16.080] We obviously have all heard all the [00:23:17.600] rumors about the Aurora with all the all [00:23:19.840] the TR-3B, and I just assumed it was [00:23:21.840] some kind of black world American [00:23:23.600] technology, and that a bit of dutiful [00:23:26.120] digging would no doubt reveal this, and [00:23:27.960] somehow, for some inescapable reason, I [00:23:30.240] would discover it and make my name by [00:23:32.520] revealing that the whole UFO story was [00:23:34.360] complete nonsense. [00:23:36.000] But, the more I got into the story, [00:23:38.440] because of that Kaikoura story, [00:23:41.160] everywhere I went, everybody was telling [00:23:43.760] me, [00:23:44.840] “This is real.” And so, I had sources [00:23:47.000] from the original Echelon investigation [00:23:50.080] I’d done, and from people I’d met in [00:23:51.600] Afghanistan and Iraq when I covered the [00:23:54.160] war, [00:23:55.200] who were in senior levels in [00:23:57.200] intelligence and um defense. [00:23:59.920] And they facilitated introductions for [00:24:01.920] me to people who [00:24:04.160] privately, when we sit over a table in a [00:24:06.520] bar, [00:24:07.800] said, “Ross, this is real.” Yeah. [00:24:10.880] And that only really happened for me [00:24:15.280] more recently, you know, while I was [00:24:17.320] writing my book. [00:24:19.000] And probably the biggest breakthrough [00:24:21.560] moment for me, where I went, “Holy heck, [00:24:24.480] this is real.” [00:24:26.240] is when the the um the technique I’d [00:24:29.640] used [00:24:31.280] to try and investigate this was because [00:24:34.520] of my knowledge of Echelon. [00:24:36.960] And how easy it is to intercept digital [00:24:39.480] communications, [00:24:41.320] I decided I wouldn’t approach anybody [00:24:44.360] that I thought might know something [00:24:45.880] about this other than by using analog [00:24:48.560] communication techniques. I wouldn’t [00:24:50.120] even use phones, because of course, [00:24:52.400] there’s a metadata, and we knew about [00:24:54.040] that because of the um [00:24:56.080] Snowden revelations that there was this [00:24:57.960] metadata trail that essentially reveals [00:25:00.800] that you can be tracked. And And they [00:25:02.760] might not know the contents of the phone [00:25:04.360] conversation, but they can certainly [00:25:06.560] track a lot about your habits and your [00:25:08.520] movements and who you’re talking to by [00:25:10.080] looking at the metadata. [00:25:11.960] And so, I wrote letters. [00:25:14.040] Wow. [00:25:15.120] I wrote I think about 160 [00:25:17.840] 170 letters at last count. [00:25:21.000] And a lot of it involved doing things [00:25:23.000] like [00:25:24.680] Uh I’m a lawyer by training. And so, [00:25:28.040] as a young [00:25:29.520] trainee lawyer, I’d learned that a lot [00:25:31.920] of stinky stuff happens [00:25:34.080] in the discovery process in legal [00:25:35.920] proceedings [00:25:37.280] with documents that are [00:25:39.120] maybe procured but not necessarily [00:25:41.640] tended in a court case. [00:25:43.720] And um [00:25:45.440] they’re often tangential to what you’re [00:25:47.040] trying to discover to prove the case [00:25:49.480] that you’re mounting, but there’s some [00:25:51.440] really juicy stuff in there. And so, I [00:25:53.960] don’t want to go into too much detail, [00:25:55.240] but there were some very helpful [00:25:56.400] lawyers. Mhm. And so, I built up a name [00:25:59.400] base of people that I thought might be [00:26:01.560] interesting who’d been involved in [00:26:03.920] litigation at Area 51. [00:26:06.960] And in a layering and iterative process [00:26:09.760] of doing what I do, which is basic [00:26:12.400] investigative journalism where you you [00:26:14.600] build up a chronology and you think who [00:26:16.400] might know something about advanced [00:26:18.760] aerospace or who might have been working [00:26:21.440] in a security role or a support role at [00:26:24.840] that time in this area that might know [00:26:26.480] something. [00:26:27.720] You build up a name base. And so, I [00:26:29.240] wrote letters to people. And one of the [00:26:31.960] glorious things about America is how [00:26:33.920] ridiculously open [00:26:36.040] every database is. And I could procure [00:26:38.560] the home addresses of everybody that I [00:26:41.160] wanted to write to, [00:26:42.920] including some of the most important [00:26:44.960] scientists in America. Wow. And what [00:26:48.040] shocked me was one of the letters I [00:26:50.080] wrote was to a guy called Nat [00:26:52.960] Kobitz. [00:26:53.640] Mhm. [00:26:54.840] And um he was the former head of science [00:26:58.000] technology development for the US Navy. [00:27:00.560] Mhm. And I’d written to him and it was [00:27:03.080] an act of brazen cheek to be perfectly [00:27:05.160] honest. I honestly did not expect that [00:27:07.280] somebody like him [00:27:08.760] would respond. [00:27:10.560] What did Kobitz say? [00:27:12.280] He rang me and [00:27:14.680] I didn’t talk UFOs with him for 3 [00:27:16.800] months. [00:27:17.280] Mhm. [00:27:19.040] And I realized sadly one of the reasons [00:27:21.840] he wanted to talk to me was because he [00:27:23.560] was a lonely elderly man who God bless [00:27:26.280] him was dying slowly of cancer. [00:27:29.520] And he was in his daughter’s home and [00:27:30.920] she was nursing him and he was bored. [00:27:34.600] And I was interested in talking to him [00:27:37.200] and he was talking to me about [00:27:38.520] developing early drone technology and [00:27:41.520] and how one of their drones had crashed [00:27:44.240] in George Bush the president’s ranch [00:27:46.280] because the Secret Service had um [00:27:48.840] frequency blockers. Mhm. And you know, [00:27:51.040] they’d spent millions of dollars on [00:27:52.520] building this drone and the first time [00:27:54.160] they flew it because they flew into the [00:27:55.680] Secret Service air envelope, it crashed [00:27:58.040] and [00:27:58.920] he went, “There went a few million [00:28:00.920] bucks, you know.” And uh [00:28:03.200] and he had this wonderful Jewish [00:28:05.000] Brooklyn sense of humor and I became [00:28:07.720] very friendly with him and I loved I [00:28:09.600] used to really enjoy talking to him. [00:28:12.240] There were things like he’d been [00:28:13.400] involved in developing things on the the [00:28:16.480] lunar lander and I knew somebody who’d [00:28:18.360] worked on the lunar lander and [00:28:20.440] they [00:28:21.640] told me something about the lunar lander [00:28:23.400] and because Nat knew about that, we [00:28:25.480] bounced off that and [00:28:27.160] it just got more and more interesting [00:28:28.840] and then [00:28:31.040] one day I rang him and he was getting [00:28:32.360] really ill. [00:28:34.840] And I could hear a a kind of a um a [00:28:36.960] change in his voice and I I felt really [00:28:39.200] sad because it was obvious he was ill [00:28:41.320] and [00:28:42.360] he went, “Why don’t you ask me the [00:28:44.520] question?” No way. [00:28:46.320] He was the guy who suggested I ask it. [00:28:48.240] Oh, wow. He kind of knew you were Oh, [00:28:50.720] yeah. He knew He knew why I was there. [00:28:52.680] Yeah, I’d made no secret that I was [00:28:54.040] writing a book about UFOs. [00:28:55.520] Uh-huh. [00:28:56.800] You know how we’re always diving into [00:28:58.400] the edge of science and consciousness on [00:29:00.760] this show? [00:29:02.040] Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about [00:29:03.520] aging, not just in terms of years, but [00:29:05.760] in how it actually feels in the body. [00:29:07.920] Slower recovery, lower energy, that [00:29:09.880] middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you. I [00:29:12.200] feel like I can barely go out and drink [00:29:13.880] alcohol anymore. That’s why I started [00:29:16.040] using something called Qualia Senolytic, [00:29:18.440] and it’s been a major shift for me. Let [00:29:20.760] me explain. As we age, our bodies [00:29:22.920] accumulate what scientists call [00:29:24.840] senescent cells, also known as zombie [00:29:27.840] cells. These are worn-out cells that [00:29:30.000] stopped dividing, but don’t die. 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Go to [00:30:09.680] qualialife.com/jesse [00:30:12.720] for up to 50% off your purchase and use [00:30:15.960] code Jesse. Again, that’s j e s s e for [00:30:19.600] an additional 15% off. That’s q u a l i [00:30:23.600] a l i f e dot com slash jesse j e s s e [00:30:29.240] for an extra 15% off your purchase. [00:30:32.200] Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring [00:30:34.400] this episode. Why don’t you ask me the [00:30:36.760] question? [00:30:38.080] And I was nervous. I was actually [00:30:39.400] slightly nervous. [00:30:41.800] And I’ve never released it, but I [00:30:43.800] actually got a recording of this Oh my [00:30:45.920] god. [00:30:47.080] And he had authorized me to record it. [00:30:49.000] Of course. Um [00:30:51.240] and I went [00:30:52.720] I’ve been agonizing about how to ask you [00:30:54.280] this question. [00:30:56.960] And he went [00:30:58.360] third time Why don’t you just ask me the [00:31:00.840] question? And so I went [00:31:03.800] Have you ever been read in [00:31:07.280] to any kind of program involving [00:31:11.680] unidentified aerial phenomena, alien [00:31:15.440] technology? [00:31:16.960] And before I finished answering the [00:31:18.040] question, he went, “Yes.” [00:31:20.080] Wow. And he obviously made a decision to [00:31:23.440] answer the question. [00:31:26.080] And [00:31:27.640] I actually didn’t hear him the first [00:31:29.360] time he said it. Uh-huh. I was expecting [00:31:31.640] him to go, “No, I don’t know anything.” [00:31:32.840] Cuz everybody was saying, “No, I don’t [00:31:34.440] know anything about what you’re talking [00:31:35.400] about.” And you know, well, I actually [00:31:37.200] know that wasn’t true. I’d already had [00:31:38.640] people confirm [00:31:40.280] the retrieval program. [00:31:42.880] But [00:31:44.800] there was a kind of a beat. One, two. [00:31:47.920] And then I went [00:31:49.560] “What?” [00:31:52.240] And and [00:31:54.440] out of respect to Nat and Nat and his [00:31:57.200] family, I I’m not going to go into a lot [00:31:59.520] of detail of the remaining [00:32:01.560] parts of the conversation because what [00:32:03.240] he then did for me [00:32:05.840] was incredible. He facilitated [00:32:09.320] introductions Mhm. to people. And that [00:32:11.840] was my big break through. Wow. And um [00:32:15.760] Will that conversation ever come out? [00:32:19.200] I I think I’d want [00:32:20.880] his family’s okay about it. [00:32:22.360] Sure. I do you know, cuz it’s an [00:32:23.600] emotional thing I think for a family to [00:32:25.640] hear a father’s voice after he’s been [00:32:27.800] passed for so long. Yeah. But um [00:32:31.880] he was a beautiful guy and and it was an [00:32:33.840] act of courage [00:32:36.000] on his part. And and I remember that of [00:32:38.000] the conversations I had with him was, do [00:32:39.560] you think there’s any good reason? Cuz [00:32:41.200] this is the thing I wrestle with, as I [00:32:42.720] know you do as well. [00:32:44.840] What’s the dirty secret? What why? Why [00:32:47.680] can’t we know this? You know, if the US [00:32:49.400] has recovered technology, [00:32:51.640] why can’t we know? And [00:32:54.080] he hadn’t been told that. And and he had [00:32:56.960] that rigid doctrinaire thing about how [00:32:59.240] he wasn’t read into that part of it. And [00:33:01.680] um [00:33:02.680] that was a compartmentalized issue. He [00:33:04.120] wasn’t entitled to know about. What he [00:33:05.720] told me was that he’d been told that the [00:33:08.360] United States had recovered multiple [00:33:11.280] craft. Wow. [00:33:12.600] Multiple craft. And he implied very [00:33:14.280] strongly that Roswell [00:33:16.280] and another case I’m interested in, [00:33:17.720] Aztec and Kingman, were all real [00:33:20.280] incidents. [00:33:22.080] And that really rocked my worldview. And [00:33:25.720] um [00:33:27.520] but what what happened was he also told [00:33:30.120] me that he I cuz oh, there was another [00:33:32.120] time I asked him. I said, oh, [00:33:35.040] have you ever actually seen evidence of [00:33:38.000] alien technology? And he went, no. And [00:33:40.440] kind of I was kind of disappointed cuz [00:33:41.920] he’d implied that he had. Yeah. [00:33:44.600] And then he gave me this cheeky look. [00:33:47.160] Huh. [00:33:48.000] And cuz we were talking on Zoom. And um [00:33:50.920] and I said, [00:33:53.120] have you ever been given [00:33:56.960] anomalous technology [00:34:00.120] that [00:34:01.600] defied prosaic explanation? [00:34:05.200] And he went, like he had the first time, [00:34:06.840] yes. Uh wow. And then he told me this [00:34:09.679] amazing story about how [00:34:12.040] he was an expert in a particular type of [00:34:14.520] welding called electron beam welding. [00:34:17.399] Okay. And apparently they his company [00:34:20.240] had done the the nose wheel for the [00:34:23.040] C-47, one of the big cargo planes they [00:34:25.560] used by the US military, and they need [00:34:27.080] really tough welds. And this is one of [00:34:29.480] the strongest welds you can do of [00:34:31.480] metals. And he was like the world expert [00:34:34.000] with his company in that type of [00:34:36.080] welding. [00:34:37.200] And it’s an indistinguishable bead. [00:34:39.399] Unlike I don’t know if you’ve ever [00:34:40.520] welded, but it’s it welds leave a big [00:34:43.240] bead. [00:34:43.800] Mhm. [00:34:45.080] This type of welding didn’t. [00:34:47.159] And so he was contacted on his own [00:34:48.800] admission by Wright-Patterson Air Force [00:34:50.919] Base. [00:34:52.560] And I think it was even whatever the [00:34:54.399] technology division is known as now. I [00:34:56.399] think it might be the [00:34:57.960] foreign technology exploitation [00:35:00.040] Yeah, the yeah. [00:35:01.680] And he um he was flying to Wright-Patt. [00:35:04.520] Yeah. And he did go underground. I [00:35:07.040] remember I giggled and I said, “Did you [00:35:08.400] go underground?” He went, “Oh, yeah.” [00:35:11.160] “Oh, yeah.” It was obviously a long way [00:35:12.840] down. [00:35:13.280] Mhm. And he was taken into a room [00:35:17.720] under heavy guard Mhm. [00:35:19.880] and shown what he described to me as the [00:35:22.760] piece of a bulkhead. [00:35:25.600] And he said, “It looked like it should [00:35:27.560] have been incredibly heavy, but it was [00:35:30.200] almost light or almost lightweight, you [00:35:32.040] know, like a feather.” Yeah. And he [00:35:33.920] said, [00:35:35.160] “What blew me away was and he I I don’t [00:35:37.280] know enough about metal metallurgy to [00:35:38.920] know this, but [00:35:40.360] he said there were two types of metal [00:35:42.480] and he wouldn’t tell me what types of [00:35:44.200] metal they were [00:35:45.720] that had been bonded. And he asked to [00:35:49.560] look at it I think under an electron [00:35:51.480] scanning microscope. [00:35:52.640] Mhm. [00:35:53.920] And the scientist in him couldn’t resist [00:35:57.760] giving that sense of awe about what he [00:36:01.000] saw that he said it was bonded [00:36:04.400] at the atomic level. Whoa. Whoever had [00:36:07.360] built this Mhm. had layered it atom by [00:36:11.000] atom. And he said, “I I know for a fact [00:36:14.160] that’s not a technology certainly that [00:36:16.080] I’m aware of and I would have thought [00:36:17.640] that I would have known.” Yeah, I think [00:36:19.760] like semiconductors you can do little [00:36:22.840] amounts of atomic layer deposition, but [00:36:24.560] you can’t fabricate at scale materials [00:36:27.000] that are atomically, you know, where [00:36:29.840] you’re deliberately placing atoms. You [00:36:31.600] just can’t do that. That’s amazing. [00:36:33.520] So, I think [00:36:35.240] for me, the the big aha moment where I [00:36:38.160] stopped being the skeptic [00:36:40.360] and went Oh, [ __ ] This is real. I can’t [00:36:43.680] believe this. [00:36:45.000] And I remember I actually spent days [00:36:46.440] just going for walks cuz I was writing [00:36:48.720] my book and it had it had actually [00:36:50.480] altered I had a confirmational bias. [00:36:52.920] Yeah. I was writing a book to debunk all [00:36:55.120] this nonsense. And And this guy is [00:36:57.120] telling me [00:36:58.600] it’s true. Is this in plain sight, by [00:37:00.440] the way, that you were writing at the [00:37:01.400] time? [00:37:02.480] And the great thing about it was um [00:37:05.480] I was doing a lot of traveling for 60 [00:37:08.240] Minutes and Channel 7, two big networks [00:37:11.120] in Australia, and I was often in [00:37:12.560] America. [00:37:14.080] And as part of cost-cutting, they’d [00:37:16.160] often leave you in a hotel for a few [00:37:17.880] days while you shared the crew with [00:37:20.160] another reporter. [00:37:21.480] And so, you’d have down time when really [00:37:23.480] all you wanted to do was be with your [00:37:24.640] family. [00:37:25.960] And you’re sitting in a hotel in [00:37:27.320] Washington or New York, and it sounds [00:37:29.000] like fun, I know. And once you’ve tried [00:37:31.200] on the fluffy dressing gown and used the [00:37:32.760] bath salts once, you’re just a bit [00:37:34.320] bored. [00:37:35.840] And so, I would um [00:37:38.360] I’d research things. [00:37:39.960] And I was going to the National Archives [00:37:42.080] and reading a lot of the old archives on [00:37:43.800] UFOs. [00:37:45.440] And then that organized for me to start [00:37:47.880] meeting people, and that was like [00:37:51.480] UAP 101. [00:37:55.080] And there was just this conga line of [00:37:57.080] people coming through an apartment I [00:37:58.960] rented [00:38:00.400] that were [00:38:03.120] brave, amazing people. It’s amazing [00:38:06.360] Well, it’s amazing how deeply embedded [00:38:09.760] you became because I I remember [00:38:12.000] correctly, Grusch had come out and you [00:38:13.520] guys had had some mutual contacts before [00:38:16.120] he came out. [00:38:17.240] true. [00:38:17.640] And with Jake Barmer, I believe you knew [00:38:19.160] him for like a couple of years before he [00:38:21.440] came out. [00:38:22.040] how long I knew either man, but [00:38:23.360] basically, it’s just to protect them. [00:38:25.880] Basically, yeah, I learned about David [00:38:28.680] Grusch from people in the program. I [00:38:30.720] just think that’s important for the [00:38:31.840] audience to hear cuz, you know, they [00:38:34.200] think it’s some like choreographed thing [00:38:36.120] or whatever. [00:38:36.400] No, [00:38:37.720] people always got this idea that all [00:38:39.160] that happens is these people come to you [00:38:41.480] and you interview them and it’s a really [00:38:42.800] lazy job. [00:38:43.600] Yeah. And they have no idea. Honestly, I [00:38:46.240] I used to have a full head of hair and [00:38:47.960] the [00:38:49.280] the the the job of [00:38:52.800] It’s a bit like you. I really admire the [00:38:54.280] way you do your stuff cuz you actually [00:38:55.800] know a lot of science and a lot of [00:38:57.760] physics. And you [00:38:59.800] you you you do. And I I love the way you [00:39:02.040] demonstrate that knowledge in the shows [00:39:03.680] that you do. Thank you. Whereas I [00:39:05.520] honestly am not a scientist. But what I [00:39:08.320] do is I’m really good and I learned this [00:39:11.600] at law school [00:39:12.400] Mhm. at absorbing huge amounts of [00:39:14.800] information, Yeah. [00:39:16.040] complex information, and analyzing it, [00:39:17.960] and understanding it, and and making [00:39:19.760] sure I understand it. [00:39:21.080] Mhm. Cuz at law school we had the [00:39:22.440] Socratic method where you were tested [00:39:24.720] orally about your understanding of [00:39:27.080] something. And you were put on the spot [00:39:29.440] by the lecturer and questioned in front [00:39:31.320] of 300 other students. And if you didn’t [00:39:33.800] know your stuff, you were humiliated and [00:39:35.640] vilified and I was never going to let [00:39:37.200] that happen. And I was humiliated and [00:39:39.120] vilified on constant occasions. [00:39:41.280] And um So you’re like Pavlovian [00:39:43.240] conditioned in [00:39:44.520] a great way. [00:39:45.120] it’s terror terror training, yeah. [00:39:46.880] That’s right. And um [00:39:48.560] and so I learned subjects so that I [00:39:51.000] could hold conversations with people and [00:39:54.000] I’d read Scientific American articles [00:39:56.200] and [00:39:57.040] try and understand them and I for the [00:39:58.840] life of me couldn’t and I I’d get [00:40:00.800] friendly physicists or um [00:40:03.120] neuroscientists to explain things to me. [00:40:06.240] And it’s by demonstrating a knowledge or [00:40:09.680] an understanding or just enough to be [00:40:11.640] able to have a conversation with [00:40:12.960] somebody [00:40:14.360] that increases the flow. [00:40:17.360] And so [00:40:18.960] sometimes I’d come out of a conversation [00:40:21.120] and I’d go [00:40:22.280] I think I’ve got what they’re talking [00:40:24.480] about. [00:40:25.640] And there’s a lot of ideas that people [00:40:27.400] were discussing with me that frankly, [00:40:29.360] now that I’m into consciousness and [00:40:30.760] psionics and stuff like that, I’m now [00:40:32.520] only now beginning to understand and [00:40:35.360] it’s um it’s 7 years since I had those [00:40:38.000] conversations. [00:40:39.640] It’s it’s wild how much your kind of [00:40:41.880] aperture opens up getting I mean I’m [00:40:44.440] curious as to like you feel [00:40:47.880] now because you’ve broken all these [00:40:49.760] stories. [00:40:51.000] You can’t really argue with the [00:40:52.480] substance of a lot of the stories. You [00:40:53.680] can’t argue with the people’s [00:40:54.680] backgrounds, you know, their [00:40:55.960] credentials. Like you you can’t really [00:40:57.720] do that. [00:40:59.080] And so I imagine you feel like you’re on [00:41:02.040] this like remote island and then like [00:41:04.480] you have, you know, I feel this at [00:41:06.760] least. You have like mainstream media or [00:41:08.920] news and they just [00:41:11.360] it’s like they can’t even comprehend [00:41:13.080] like where you are. It’s funny. I’m so [00:41:15.880] glad you’ve led me into this path [00:41:17.200] because I’m going to give you my rant. [00:41:19.480] I think there will come a time [00:41:22.920] in the not too distant future where [00:41:24.760] there will be a bloody reckoning with [00:41:28.120] the failure of the mainstream media in [00:41:30.560] the main [00:41:31.840] to deal with the greatest disinformation [00:41:34.800] operation in human history. [00:41:37.560] It has been the most effective psyop [00:41:41.440] ever run. [00:41:43.120] But you you also realize when talking to [00:41:45.640] a lot of these people the psyop maybe [00:41:48.120] it’s at the top like okay, I’ll tell [00:41:50.320] give you a crazy story. [00:41:53.240] A friend of mine was planning an op-ed [00:41:56.640] with a former cabinet member in the US. [00:41:59.920] The cabinet member wanted to know where [00:42:02.200] they were they were expressing [00:42:03.200] frustration about their lack of access [00:42:06.160] to [00:42:07.520] UFO stuff. [00:42:09.680] I decided to help him out cuz he was [00:42:11.560] having trouble with the Wall Street [00:42:12.560] Journal getting this published, which is [00:42:14.040] just prima facie crazy if you take that [00:42:16.680] claim at face value. And even just the [00:42:19.160] fact that the cabinet member is claiming [00:42:20.880] it. [00:42:21.160] Well, you look I mean, what made the New [00:42:22.280] York Times publish it in 2017? The mere [00:42:24.400] fact that the Pentagon was looking at [00:42:26.440] UFOs was a story. [00:42:27.720] It’s It’s the There you go. Which is [00:42:30.480] That is a story, right? And so, [00:42:33.320] um and then you get into all these [00:42:34.240] questions of like, why did the New York [00:42:35.440] Times reject the Grusch story? It’s [00:42:37.160] crazy. But, in this case, I’m talking to [00:42:39.840] this journalist at the The Wall Street [00:42:41.640] Journal trying to help my friend out. [00:42:43.160] And she’s actually somewhat open-minded, [00:42:46.040] but like she just you know, it’s a one [00:42:48.000] of these things where it’s like [00:42:49.800] it seems so beyond the pale, and if you [00:42:51.880] don’t understand the the deeper research [00:42:54.200] and you haven’t gone down the rabbit [00:42:55.400] hole, [00:42:56.400] it’s kind of like in one ear out the [00:42:58.280] other, and she then says, “I don’t know. [00:43:01.080] We have this um [00:43:03.080] we have this like consultant that we [00:43:04.800] talked to about UFOs here, [00:43:06.800] uh and his name is David Spergel.” And [00:43:09.880] you know where I’m going with this. And [00:43:11.360] David Spergel tells me that it’s all [00:43:13.880] uh uh space trash, uh temperature [00:43:16.320] inversions, and light reflections. And [00:43:17.880] in my head I’m thinking, “That’s exactly [00:43:19.680] what Don Menzel would say in the ’50s to [00:43:22.600] throw people off the trail.” And David [00:43:24.360] Spergel not only did the NASA UAP review [00:43:26.600] panel in 2023, but he happens to run the [00:43:29.040] Simons Foundation, you know, uh uh um [00:43:32.480] and uh you know, as a scientific [00:43:34.240] advisor, and is very embedded in like, [00:43:37.080] you know, DOE research. [00:43:39.520] That’s where if you both if you know [00:43:41.280] what we both know, that’s where the [00:43:42.520] bodies are buried. [00:43:43.280] Absolutely. No, and it’s it’s funny. I [00:43:46.360] One of the things in my line of work is [00:43:48.920] we have a vulgar expression, which is [00:43:51.160] always assume a [ __ ] up before a [00:43:52.640] conspiracy. Like, conspiracies happen so [00:43:55.160] rarely. [00:43:56.400] And invariably, it’s the it’s the [00:43:58.520] screw-ups that that are the explanation [00:44:01.800] rather than active conspiracy. In this [00:44:04.240] case, I have been led reluctantly to the [00:44:07.040] conclusion this is a conspiracy. Mhm. [00:44:10.160] That there really is a group, a cabal, a [00:44:13.640] leadership cabal that is actively [00:44:16.920] conniving to deceive the public. Why do [00:44:19.720] Why do you think that it going back to [00:44:21.440] your earlier question of like, “What’s [00:44:22.880] the big deal?” [00:44:24.240] Why do you think they hide it? [00:44:26.440] I think they’ve convinced themselves cuz [00:44:28.720] I I I actually asked somebody from [00:44:30.240] Lockheed Martin is [00:44:31.760] Perfect. What’s up, guys? I want to tell [00:44:34.000] you about my new favorite boots. These [00:44:36.480] things are epic. I’ve been wearing these [00:44:38.360] everywhere. They’re called Brunt. 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I won’t say who they [00:45:53.240] are and convey who they are with They [00:45:54.640] were They were an executive, a very [00:45:56.440] senior executive. [00:45:58.040] And we were playing a delicate dance. [00:46:01.040] They’d heard me say something, [00:46:03.080] and they were thanking me for [00:46:06.320] not putting them in it and for more [00:46:08.240] accurately reflecting the true state of [00:46:09.880] events about something. And essentially [00:46:11.840] it was an implicit acknowledgement by [00:46:13.240] that Lockheed Martin executive [00:46:15.560] that they are holding alien technology. [00:46:18.600] And I just blurted it out. I said, [00:46:20.520] “Look, can I ask you a question?” I [00:46:21.760] said, “I promise you I’m not recording [00:46:23.320] you.” [00:46:24.480] “Why? [00:46:25.920] Why not just come out and say it?” And [00:46:27.560] he said, “It’s not us.” [00:46:30.120] He said, “It’s the agency.” Interesting. [00:46:32.480] He said, “We want to do it.” And then [00:46:34.280] that’s how I found out about the [00:46:36.760] attempt by Bigelow Aerospace to this [00:46:40.320] [ __ ] story about metamaterials that [00:46:43.120] God bless them, Leslie and Ralph put in [00:46:45.120] the New York Times story. [00:46:46.800] That was always nonsense. It wasn’t [00:46:48.840] metamaterials, it was a spacecraft. [00:46:51.240] Right. Lockheed Martin was going to pass [00:46:53.760] on control of an alien spacecraft to [00:46:57.560] Bigelow Aerospace. That’s the real [00:46:59.400] story. Mhm. And you hear rumors that [00:47:02.000] maybe it was the Kingman craft in ‘53. [00:47:04.480] Yeah. And so the the interesting thing [00:47:06.320] is the um [00:47:07.840] the CIA intervened to stop that from [00:47:10.720] happening. Or at least the Office of [00:47:12.240] Global Access as it was once known. [00:47:14.000] And it was it was Glenn Gaffney, right? [00:47:15.560] Who is now at It’s interesting, I’m not [00:47:17.400] 100% sure it was Glenn Gaffney. People [00:47:20.080] have denied that from the inside, but I [00:47:21.800] don’t know if that’s disinformation. [00:47:23.480] Okay. Glenn Gaffney’s definitely been [00:47:25.480] involved in the cover-up. [00:47:27.000] Right. Yeah, no, for sure. [00:47:28.600] Yeah. And Australia I I remember when I [00:47:30.840] first met you, it was at the Sol [00:47:32.080] Foundation a couple years ago. And [00:47:34.640] Australia has its own fascinating [00:47:36.400] history that I remember asking you about [00:47:38.080] at the time. You have this guy named [00:47:40.000] Harry Turner. [00:47:40.800] Oh, I love Harry Turner. Tell us about [00:47:42.520] Harry Turner. [00:47:43.120] Well, good friend of mine, Bill Chalker, [00:47:44.720] who’s probably Australia’s preeminent [00:47:46.920] UAP researcher, he got to know Harry [00:47:49.720] really well while Harry was alive. And [00:47:51.440] Harry had been [00:47:53.080] in his youth, as a young 20-something, a [00:47:56.240] young physicist recently qualified from [00:47:58.280] Melbourne University, and he expressed [00:48:00.840] an interest in investigating UFOs to [00:48:03.840] the then government. And they’d invited [00:48:06.800] him to come on board back in those more [00:48:08.920] learned and insightful days when [00:48:10.800] governments didn’t try and hide evidence [00:48:12.360] of UFOs, they invited this young [00:48:14.520] physicist in to analyze UFO sightings [00:48:17.320] cuz they were like the Americans trying [00:48:19.000] to investigate them. And we were [00:48:20.640] involved in a collaborative relationship [00:48:22.760] with America providing information to [00:48:24.720] Project Blue Book, handing over some of [00:48:26.800] the more interesting Australian and New [00:48:29.040] Zealand sightings cases. And there was a [00:48:31.280] collaborative exchange of data and [00:48:33.200] information. [00:48:34.800] Which they still do secretly, but I [00:48:36.200] won’t get to that until later. But the [00:48:38.680] the interesting thing is Harry Turner [00:48:41.680] somehow fell into the Maralinga nuclear [00:48:45.080] test program. [00:48:46.560] And when the British were developing [00:48:49.200] their nuclear weapon, [00:48:51.120] God bless the British, they lit their [00:48:53.160] bombs off in the middle of Australia. [00:48:55.880] And I’ve been involved in doing stories [00:48:58.000] about what a dreadful scandal that was [00:48:59.960] and how [00:49:01.360] Aboriginal Aboriginal people died in [00:49:03.400] their droves from horrible cancers, and [00:49:05.400] so did the servicemen [00:49:07.200] who were involved in supervising the [00:49:09.240] tests. [00:49:10.560] But there’s two ranges. There’s the [00:49:11.880] Maralinga range where the bombs were [00:49:14.120] tested, and there’s the Woomera range [00:49:16.360] where they tested the ICBMs. And Woomera [00:49:18.880] is still very active. It’s where the [00:49:20.360] Americans have secretly been testing [00:49:22.600] hypersonic missile technology. [00:49:24.800] And there’s a huge level of [00:49:25.880] collaboration secretly between Australia [00:49:28.080] and the US where a lot of your dirty [00:49:30.320] aerospace gets brought out to Australia. [00:49:32.680] And [00:49:33.560] funnily enough, it’s neither here nor [00:49:34.720] there. I’ve had many Aboriginal [00:49:37.000] communities that are often the only [00:49:38.840] communities out there in these remote [00:49:40.600] parts of Australia [00:49:42.240] who’ve described black triangles flying [00:49:45.600] over their communities, silent black [00:49:47.440] triangles. Something is, I’m sure, being [00:49:50.880] tested in the Australian Outback. Wow. [00:49:53.360] But Harry in the 19 Whenever the nuclear [00:49:56.440] tests started, I think it was in the 19 [00:49:59.000] 50s 50s and into the 60s. [00:50:02.160] He was the supervising physicist on the [00:50:04.800] range at Maralinga. [00:50:07.480] And he was invited to investigate [00:50:10.400] multiple UAP UAP sightings that took [00:50:13.160] place at Maralinga during the sightings. [00:50:16.880] And there are still reports in the [00:50:18.920] archives of those UAP sightings and I [00:50:21.640] put a lot of them in my book. [00:50:23.760] And um there’s a young fellow who I’ve [00:50:26.440] just put an article of his up on a [00:50:27.840] website in Australia, [00:50:29.560] uh Rhys Dalton Moore. And he’s basically [00:50:32.120] his grandfather ran [00:50:34.480] the Woomera test range. [00:50:36.760] And it turns out he was secretly [00:50:38.520] involved in investigating [00:50:41.400] uh [00:50:42.000] Rhys Dalton Morgan, I apologize. And his [00:50:44.400] grandfather was involved in secret [00:50:46.120] investigations with the British [00:50:47.520] government in the late 1950s late 1940s [00:50:50.600] in Britain with the UFOs. [00:50:53.360] And so it turned out there’s this whole [00:50:55.080] area of physicists including Harry [00:50:57.960] Turner [00:50:59.240] who were witness to UFO incidents in [00:51:02.640] their droves in the Maralinga and [00:51:04.640] Woomera test range areas during the 50s [00:51:06.760] and the 60s. [00:51:08.440] And so after he’d done that work, Harry [00:51:10.480] went on to work in the equivalent of the [00:51:12.800] DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency in [00:51:15.760] Australia, [00:51:17.040] which at the time was known as the Joint [00:51:19.200] Intelligence Organization, JIO. [00:51:22.840] And he in 1972 [00:51:25.800] wrote an extraordinary paper [00:51:28.880] which lots of people keep on sending me [00:51:31.120] going, “Wow, you must read this, Rossy. [00:51:33.240] You wouldn’t know about this.” And I’ve [00:51:34.880] blooming written chapters about it and [00:51:36.480] talked about it for years. [00:51:38.120] I find it fascinating. Harry wrote this [00:51:40.000] definitive piece which basically was a [00:51:42.600] report to the chief of JIO recommending [00:51:46.720] that the Defense Department of Australia [00:51:48.720] set up a a UFO flying squad to [00:51:51.320] investigate UFOs. [00:51:53.480] And it was under serious active [00:51:55.840] consideration. You can see that they [00:51:57.440] weren’t going to dismiss their chief [00:51:58.640] scientist in a hurry. And he made a very [00:52:02.360] authoritative argument that the [00:52:04.440] Americans were essentially lying. Mhm. [00:52:07.480] And [00:52:08.600] I have a strong suspicion because there [00:52:10.760] was an enormous amount of liaison [00:52:12.440] between physicists from America and [00:52:14.440] physicists from Australia that there was [00:52:16.560] a bit of cross-pollination that that [00:52:18.760] Harry had picked up stuff from American [00:52:21.320] nuclear physicists [00:52:22.960] who were aware of the early stages of [00:52:26.280] the American legacy program. Well, you [00:52:28.280] told me one time that like some of the [00:52:30.160] gray beards you’ve spoken to in the [00:52:32.040] Australian context talked about Robert [00:52:34.080] Sarbacher coming and visiting them and [00:52:36.320] obviously [00:52:36.960] Robert Sarbacher was definitely involved [00:52:39.360] in liaison. And the most interesting [00:52:40.880] thing is a lot of the Australian [00:52:42.720] scientists, including Harry at one [00:52:45.120] stage, went on [00:52:47.000] um expeditions to the Pacific tests [00:52:50.080] because the Americans were trying to [00:52:51.600] suck up to us for exploding bombs in our [00:52:54.400] backyard by inviting us to be part of [00:52:57.200] these tests and to be witnesses to them. [00:52:59.560] And of course, they were polluting vast [00:53:01.120] parts of Micronesia, spraying nuclear [00:53:04.360] residue all over huge parts of the [00:53:06.800] Marshall Islands and Johnson Atoll. [00:53:09.160] Huge numbers of communities and I’ve [00:53:10.960] been out to the Marshall Islands and [00:53:12.400] Johnson Atoll briefly. And it is really [00:53:15.120] quite amazing to think that they were [00:53:16.880] exploding thermonuclear weapons in the [00:53:18.880] open. But I think there was a lot of [00:53:20.440] cross-pollination there as well between [00:53:22.640] Australian scientists and American [00:53:24.360] scientists. [00:53:25.720] It’s pretty obvious Harry picked up a [00:53:28.600] lot of information. And he wrote this [00:53:31.520] absolutely candid analysis [00:53:34.200] that the Americans clearly have some [00:53:36.840] kind of retrieval program. He talked [00:53:39.280] about Roswell. He talked about other [00:53:40.960] retrievals. And he talked about how the [00:53:43.600] Americans were clearly keeping this from [00:53:45.480] us. [00:53:46.520] And look, even in present day, this is [00:53:48.160] strategically significant for us in [00:53:49.920] Australia, [00:53:51.200] because I was involved in 1994, that’s [00:53:54.520] how old I am, [00:53:55.880] uh in another story about spies, [00:53:58.600] where I revealed that our intelligence [00:54:01.520] service, the equivalent of the CIA, ASIS [00:54:04.480] in Australia, [00:54:05.920] did plausibly deniable favors for its [00:54:09.840] allies, America and the UK, under the [00:54:12.440] Five Eyes alliance, and [00:54:14.520] there were amazing examples of plausibly [00:54:16.960] plausibly deniable favors, where [00:54:20.000] for example, Australian technical [00:54:22.520] operators, people who did bugging and [00:54:24.960] tapping, [00:54:26.360] were borrowed by the Brits, and MI6 [00:54:29.360] would ring the Australians and say, “I [00:54:31.360] say, old chap, can I borrow one of your [00:54:33.000] tech ops lads?” [00:54:34.600] And we we spoke to some of these people [00:54:36.400] who were involved in these technical [00:54:37.840] operations, and they told us how [00:54:40.280] one of them had flown to Kuwait [00:54:42.640] after the first Gulf War, [00:54:45.360] and there was a huge amount of money [00:54:47.320] going for contracts for the rebuilding [00:54:49.880] of Kuwait, multi-billion dollar fat, [00:54:52.680] juicy, cost-plus contracts. [00:54:55.000] And there were Australian construction [00:54:56.480] companies involved in bidding wars with [00:54:59.480] British companies to win these [00:55:01.080] incredibly lucrative contracts. [00:55:03.600] And so, the Brits secretly borrowed one [00:55:06.600] of the technical operators buggers from [00:55:08.520] Australia [00:55:10.040] to win a commercial advantage against [00:55:12.400] Australia by bugging the Kuwaiti [00:55:14.480] government offices on behalf of British [00:55:16.160] intelligence. [00:55:17.720] And it blew me away. I verified this [00:55:20.400] directly with some of the people [00:55:21.720] involved in the operation, [00:55:23.520] that Australian [00:55:26.040] spooks [00:55:27.680] were used this way as plausibly deniable [00:55:30.640] operatives to do things that the British [00:55:33.000] wanted to be entirely off the books, and [00:55:35.360] if they’d been caught doing it, they [00:55:37.360] would have it would have been my [00:55:38.440] government, Australian government that [00:55:39.880] was compromised, not the Brits. [00:55:42.600] And we’ve been doing this kind of dirty [00:55:44.600] work for years in the Five Eyes [00:55:46.440] Alliance. [00:55:47.640] That story was like incendiary [00:55:51.480] inside the Five Eyes Alliance. I [00:55:53.920] I know it upset a lot of people because [00:55:56.880] it revealed the dirty little secret that [00:55:59.080] the Kiwis and the Aussies and to a [00:56:00.680] lesser extent the Canadians, [00:56:02.680] they do the [ __ ] that the Brits and the [00:56:04.800] Americans want to deny, including spying [00:56:07.320] on their allies [00:56:08.720] and bugging, including in some cases [00:56:10.720] their allies. [00:56:12.560] And I I [00:56:14.880] met this group of people who’d been [00:56:16.800] involved in these operations and that [00:56:19.040] was when it was in the back of my mind [00:56:21.040] when I was investigating the UFO stuff. [00:56:22.960] So, [00:56:23.840] when I later on started investigating [00:56:25.720] UAP retrieval operations, [00:56:29.600] I knew people from special forces in [00:56:31.480] Australia, [00:56:32.720] including retired special forces people [00:56:34.800] who’d worked in a particular era when I [00:56:36.720] knew [00:56:37.840] there were allegedly American retrieval [00:56:39.960] operations involving UFOs. [00:56:42.560] And they told me they’d been involved in [00:56:44.160] retrieval operations. [00:56:45.920] And the incredible thing was [00:56:47.880] the Australian government was never [00:56:49.440] briefed into these retrieval operations. [00:56:52.200] They were paid cash US dollars just to [00:56:54.840] keep their mouths shut. They were asked [00:56:56.720] to sign NDAs. [00:56:58.920] And if you think about it, it’s perfect. [00:57:02.520] Yeah. [00:57:03.400] There were no US personnel involved in [00:57:05.520] this operation. Right. Right, and it’s [00:57:08.440] not even Australian government didn’t [00:57:09.920] know and these guys walked away with fat [00:57:11.600] checks and were kept very happy. [00:57:13.480] This is why the fact of the Canadian [00:57:15.920] involvement in retrievals and [00:57:19.160] reverse engineering efforts has been [00:57:20.600] kept so secret for so long [00:57:22.840] because Canadian scientists have been [00:57:26.000] and are involved in the legacy program. [00:57:30.040] And it’s been kept secret from the [00:57:31.800] Canadian people and [00:57:33.760] um the only reason I’m aware of this [00:57:36.080] stuff is because I know [00:57:37.840] to look for it because of the stories [00:57:39.680] I’ve done previously about things like [00:57:42.240] Echelon and [00:57:44.080] the plausibly deniable favors of secret [00:57:46.640] services exchanging each other’s men to [00:57:48.640] do dirty tricks on each other. [00:57:51.040] And that woke me up. I I I I knew to ask [00:57:54.120] the question [00:57:55.440] when I was questioning people in the [00:57:57.680] program. [00:57:59.120] And they’d say, “Oh yeah, I remember the [00:58:00.840] Aussies. I remember that guy. Yeah.” And [00:58:03.080] it’s interesting because people wanted [00:58:05.520] to talk about it because [00:58:07.640] when I really pushed the issue [00:58:09.840] to come back to the actual question [00:58:11.280] you’d asked me, there was no good reason [00:58:14.680] for this to be kept secret. [00:58:17.000] And that blew me away and Harry Turner [00:58:20.440] was the very early [00:58:23.400] proponent of [00:58:25.920] the fact that Australia was having the [00:58:27.960] wool pulled over its eyes. [00:58:30.120] I care about this issue because we’re [00:58:32.120] currently negotiating. We’ve actually [00:58:34.440] agreed to buy [00:58:36.560] 368 [00:58:39.440] billion dollars worth of Virginia class [00:58:42.400] nuclear attack submarines [00:58:44.480] from your government in America [00:58:47.280] because we supposedly need them as a [00:58:49.000] strategic deterrent to deal with the [00:58:50.560] Chinese. And what it’s really all about [00:58:52.840] is helping you guys fight the next war [00:58:55.000] that they think they’re going to have [00:58:55.840] with China and maintaining American [00:58:58.280] imperial hegemony. [00:59:00.160] And there are a lot of people including [00:59:01.960] in a former Australian Prime Minister [00:59:03.840] Paul Keating who’ve said publicly [00:59:06.600] “Why are we so slavishly doing these [00:59:09.160] things for the American alliance?” [00:59:11.720] And I think there’s a fundamental deceit [00:59:14.840] that lies at the heart of this alliance [00:59:16.880] and it’s UAPs. [00:59:19.080] And I’ve raised this at a very high [00:59:20.680] level with our government [00:59:22.480] and I’ve had people in our government [00:59:24.040] say to me, “Ross, give me the evidence.” [00:59:26.080] Yeah. [00:59:27.000] Well, I’m going to link that document at [00:59:28.880] the bottom of the uh at the in the [00:59:30.560] description of this video because it’s [00:59:32.080] an amazing document. [00:59:33.680] It talks about crash retrievals. It [00:59:35.400] confirms all these things that you have [00:59:38.240] to kind of do deep research in the US to [00:59:40.360] even know, which is Blue Book is fake. [00:59:43.480] Blue Book was this total PR, you know, [00:59:45.800] job to rationalize and explain away UFO [00:59:48.120] sightings in the ’50s and ’60s. And then [00:59:50.040] it goes into the fact that the real work [00:59:51.640] around anti-gravity was going on and you [00:59:54.280] had people like Oppenheimer That’s [00:59:56.120] right. Wheeler, [00:59:57.880] Freeman Dyson, our top scientists all [01:00:00.040] investigating this stuff. And it even [01:00:01.880] lists the outposts of the CIA’s Office [01:00:04.640] of Scientific Intelligence studying [01:00:06.160] this. It talks about University of North [01:00:07.800] Carolina, Chapel Hill, where we know [01:00:09.920] that they were funding Thomas Townsend [01:00:11.360] Brown and all sorts of other, you know, [01:00:12.920] anti-gravity stuff. So, [01:00:14.960] it’s a it’s a fascinating document. [01:00:17.040] Speaking of the Marshall Islands, you [01:00:19.520] before me actually broke this amazing [01:00:22.440] story about Blue Gill Triple Prime. Oh, [01:00:24.440] yeah. [01:00:24.800] You with Jeffrey Cruikshank, who [01:00:28.160] is a is a really amazing researcher and [01:00:30.200] also comes from the nuclear world. And [01:00:33.880] what got you onto that story? And now, I [01:00:36.800] you know, I want to talk about this with [01:00:37.960] you because there’s a little bit of [01:00:39.080] controversy around Harold Agnew. Well, I [01:00:41.560] I know and I’ve seen [01:00:43.400] Jifs also published a rebuttal to [01:00:45.200] Douglas Dean Johnson’s hatchet job. [01:00:48.240] I will link that, too. Yeah. Yeah, and [01:00:50.040] and it’s interesting cuz I haven’t had a [01:00:52.040] chance to read his rebuttal yet. I [01:00:54.280] thought Douglas raised some legitimate [01:00:56.200] points and I’m really interested to see [01:00:59.680] the academic argument back from Jifs. I [01:01:01.600] just haven’t had a chance to read it [01:01:02.800] yet. But yeah, I mean, how did I get [01:01:05.320] into that? I was as a young man, I was [01:01:08.560] living in New Zealand when these tests [01:01:11.200] were happening in some cases. And it was [01:01:14.520] I can tell you [01:01:15.920] a big issue that both the Yanks and the [01:01:18.920] French, particularly the French at [01:01:20.800] Mururoa, [01:01:22.360] were exploding thermonuclear weapons in [01:01:24.760] our backyard. [01:01:26.400] And [01:01:27.520] I can remember um [01:01:29.360] as a much younger journalist, I learned [01:01:31.240] how to use the archives, and one of the [01:01:33.760] early documents I found in the [01:01:35.360] Australian archives were was evidence of [01:01:38.320] secret testing of animals for radiation [01:01:41.480] residue from those nuclear experiments [01:01:43.920] that were at the time kept from the [01:01:46.200] Australian and New Zealand public. And [01:01:48.800] there were nuclear tides showing quite [01:01:51.040] concerning levels of radioactive [01:01:52.920] isotopes [01:01:54.080] coming from weapons testing including, [01:01:56.840] by the way, Maralinga and um [01:01:59.160] and um other explosions that had taken [01:02:01.840] place in islands off the coast of [01:02:03.400] Australia that showed that contrary to [01:02:06.360] what the public had been told, there [01:02:07.840] were radioactive elements getting into [01:02:10.640] the blood and the the bodies of human [01:02:12.800] beings, and more importantly, there was [01:02:15.040] a discernible [01:02:16.880] sigma move, if you like, showing a a [01:02:20.000] statistical lift in cancer rates. Mhm. [01:02:22.840] And this was never revealed. It was [01:02:24.240] never talked about. [01:02:25.160] Mhm. [01:02:25.960] And uh I I I just I I guess I grew up in [01:02:29.240] that environment of deep skepticism. [01:02:32.240] I was also um living in New Zealand [01:02:34.520] around the time of the attack by the [01:02:36.880] French on the Greenpeace boat in [01:02:39.200] Auckland Harbor where [01:02:41.280] um an environmental vessel that was [01:02:44.080] being used by Greenpeace to go and [01:02:46.200] demonstrate against the Mururoa Atoll [01:02:49.240] nuclear tests [01:02:50.720] was blown up by the DGSE, French [01:02:53.120] intelligence, in an intelligence [01:02:54.640] operation slap-bang in the middle of [01:02:56.920] Auckland Harbor. I mean, an incredible [01:02:58.600] operation. [01:03:00.080] I mean, incredible French arrogance to [01:03:02.720] think that they could do that and not [01:03:04.080] get caught. And the stupid buggers, if [01:03:06.560] they just hadn’t [01:03:08.240] tried to get the deposit back on their [01:03:10.400] rental car, the French would have got [01:03:12.560] away with one of the most awful crimes [01:03:15.440] of that time of recent history. [01:03:18.240] But, um, you know, there was this sordid [01:03:20.320] period where the great imperial powers [01:03:22.640] of the world were looking for rental [01:03:25.320] for real estate to explode their nuclear [01:03:27.240] weapons. [01:03:28.400] And both the US and France used the the [01:03:31.480] South Pacific. [01:03:33.000] And all the Pacific. And, um, [01:03:35.920] it was a big political issue for me as a [01:03:39.120] young man in New Zealand and much later [01:03:41.880] in Australia as well. People were [01:03:43.360] concerned about this. Why the hell are [01:03:45.280] we allowing the Yanks to do this? [01:03:47.320] And when Maralinga came out, very much [01:03:49.360] in 1988, [01:03:51.880] there was a huge court case by [01:03:53.400] servicemen in the UK where all of the [01:03:55.840] dirty secrets of Maralinga came out. And [01:03:58.680] all of these horrible revelations of [01:04:01.120] toxic radiation exposure was finally [01:04:03.440] revealed. And the Maralinga Royal [01:04:05.920] Commission remains, I think, one of the [01:04:07.600] most sensational public inquiries of [01:04:09.640] that era. [01:04:11.040] Because essentially it was crimes [01:04:13.440] committed by the state [01:04:15.240] on the justification of national [01:04:16.960] security exposing servicemen and women [01:04:20.360] to high levels of radiation that in some [01:04:23.480] cases killed people. [01:04:25.840] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s that’s [01:04:28.040] the history and that’s the backdrop of, [01:04:30.720] uh, you know, some of these interesting [01:04:32.080] UFO stories where we do have this [01:04:34.760] well-documented, you know, nuclear [01:04:36.560] connection. You’ve interviewed Robert [01:04:38.080] Hastings. I’ve interviewed Robert [01:04:39.480] Hastings. [01:04:40.680] And, um, [01:04:42.240] I do think it’s interesting with this [01:04:43.560] with this Malmstrom case, [01:04:46.120] I think there’s a lot of circumstantial [01:04:48.400] evidence to to say that this this [01:04:50.400] actually happened. I don’t know what you [01:04:51.600] think, but [01:04:52.360] yeah, I mean, I I I’m not prepared to [01:04:54.040] stake my [01:04:55.200] my [01:04:56.000] hand to my heart and say I think Harold [01:04:58.400] was telling the truth. [01:04:59.320] Yeah. I’m not prepared to say yet I [01:05:01.480] think he was lying. And part of this is [01:05:04.000] driven my my my deep respect and [01:05:06.040] admiration for Pippa. Mhm. And I I I do [01:05:09.000] feel whether way Douglas did it was [01:05:10.480] quite heartless and malicious. Well, in [01:05:13.360] the way that he did it that so soon [01:05:15.880] after [01:05:17.160] I agree. the the death of a a man who [01:05:19.680] family is still treasuring. I think it [01:05:21.680] could have been done in a more gentle [01:05:23.360] way. And I had the feeling a little bit [01:05:26.360] too much when I was reading Harold’s [01:05:28.680] write-up. Not Harold’s Douglas’s [01:05:31.080] write-up. This is Douglas Dean Johnson [01:05:33.880] who who wrote an analysis of the claims [01:05:36.680] of Harold Momgren [01:05:38.520] that substantiated the [01:05:41.120] the allegation that there was a UFO [01:05:42.840] retrieved in the Triple Blue Girl Triple [01:05:45.160] Prime Blue Girl tests in the Pacific. [01:05:49.600] And [01:05:51.320] yes, [01:05:52.640] it is odd that there’s no paperwork [01:05:55.800] that substantiates this. [01:05:58.200] But is it possible, for example, that [01:06:00.840] because of the role that Harold was [01:06:02.640] playing, of course there was no [01:06:04.080] paperwork? Yes, well, that is the [01:06:06.320] history historyography of the time, [01:06:08.440] right? We are talking to an audience [01:06:10.080] that probably believes that the CIA had [01:06:12.160] a hand in killing JFK. Then you ask [01:06:13.960] people [01:06:14.400] no doubt. No doubt. Right, yeah, they’re [01:06:16.760] all sure. And then you ask, “Okay, so [01:06:18.680] how did that get coordinated? Who called [01:06:20.160] the shots?” And they’re like, “Oh, it’s [01:06:21.560] it’s Allen Dulles.” Where was Allen [01:06:22.920] Dulles at the time? Was he at the CIA? [01:06:24.240] No, he wasn’t. He was at the Brown [01:06:25.920] Brothers Harriman, where he had left the [01:06:28.000] CIA. We’re also talking to an audience [01:06:30.080] that is talk loves to talk about Tim [01:06:31.960] Taylor, this like really interesting [01:06:33.880] character that inserts himself in Diana [01:06:35.600] Pasulka’s life, says he’s part of the [01:06:37.000] secret space stuff. And where was he [01:06:39.840] working? He’s was NASA mission [01:06:41.880] controller, but he was also at a [01:06:43.840] federally funded research and [01:06:45.560] development center called Aerospace [01:06:47.360] Corporation. So that is the backdrop [01:06:49.760] That is the lens through which you have [01:06:51.480] to understand that this guy is working [01:06:53.040] at the Institute of Defense Analysis, [01:06:55.200] another federally federally funded [01:06:57.080] research and development center. [01:06:58.560] by my intelligence friends is used as a [01:07:01.000] front. It is used as a front. He said in [01:07:03.600] a 2024 interview in with Robert Laird, [01:07:06.880] “I was [01:07:08.680] the cover was that I was at the [01:07:11.080] IDA, but in fact I was actually helping [01:07:13.600] the Joint Chiefs in the Pentagon. I know [01:07:15.800] he couldn’t say this and and other [01:07:17.560] people we both know can’t reveal that [01:07:19.440] the CIA as well. [01:07:21.160] But do you think it’s possible Harold [01:07:22.400] was CIA? I do. And and I’m going to be [01:07:25.360] coming out with a more extensive video [01:07:27.120] on this [01:07:28.480] because I think it’s important to say [01:07:30.040] and I [01:07:30.960] I actually wanted to say it as part of [01:07:33.000] the story, but I wanted to respect and [01:07:35.320] his sort of gentlemanly desire to sort [01:07:37.600] of keep it shut at the end. But you [01:07:38.960] Okay, here are a few a few fun facts. If [01:07:41.200] you watch that interview I did with him, [01:07:43.800] he says I was best friends with Tom [01:07:45.440] Farmer. Happened to be the GC, the [01:07:47.560] general counsel of the CIA. He says, you [01:07:50.640] know, oh I was living at Nabokov’s house [01:07:52.840] and then Pippa says, yeah, there’s all [01:07:54.160] these CIA connections with Nabokov. He [01:07:57.480] says he he helped create the [01:07:59.400] presidential daily brief, which is a CIA [01:08:02.000] thing. Like over I was holding Paul [01:08:04.800] Mellon’s walking stick. You think he [01:08:06.760] bought that at a yard sale? Paul Mellon [01:08:08.400] founded the CIA. So this is really [01:08:11.320] important because [01:08:12.560] a lot of the the Douglas Dean Johnson, [01:08:15.040] you know, debunk is like I spoke to an [01:08:17.799] archivist here, I spoke to a person here [01:08:20.160] and they didn’t know him. But but but [01:08:21.759] the the crux of it, the heart of it is [01:08:24.040] he didn’t have a Q clearance. If that Q [01:08:25.839] clearance came through him being part of [01:08:28.120] the CIA, which he was part of the CIA, [01:08:30.720] you wouldn’t be able to query it. It [01:08:32.200] wouldn’t be in some FBI foyer request. [01:08:35.000] in a file and release to the public. I [01:08:36.640] mean, one of the things you can make a [01:08:38.640] discretionary thing to do is to is to [01:08:40.680] redact any evidence that somebody held a [01:08:42.640] Q clearance. [01:08:43.200] Absolutely. Because the fact of somebody [01:08:45.240] holding a Q clearance is in and of [01:08:47.120] itself potentially compromising a [01:08:48.799] special access program. [01:08:50.000] Yes, totally. And the Institute of [01:08:52.359] Defense Analysis has been formally, even [01:08:55.400] on paper, involved in every single [01:08:57.359] missile defense program after Bluegill. [01:09:00.279] So Stradex to THAAD and Aegis now to you [01:09:03.040] know, Star Wars in the ’80s, IDA has its [01:09:05.839] fingerprints over all of it. Not to [01:09:07.600] mention, you’d appreciate this. You have [01:09:09.279] you spoken to Bob Jacobs ever? 64? Yeah, [01:09:11.839] many times. Yeah. So, yeah, I’m sure you [01:09:13.920] have some great content with him. [01:09:16.000] Um he’s a really believable guy in my [01:09:17.920] opinion. He was deleted by the [01:09:19.279] government and then you know, [01:09:21.200] a man’s man his major in the Air Force. [01:09:23.080] What a brave act by man’s man. To to go [01:09:26.080] back and say [01:09:26.839] a guy, just to explain to our audience, [01:09:28.720] this is a guy Bob Jacobs who as a young [01:09:31.080] captain [01:09:32.240] in the US Air Force was asked to [01:09:34.640] photograph a fairly mundane launch of an [01:09:36.839] ICBM test prototype missile from Edwards [01:09:39.480] Air Force Base. [01:09:40.839] In the course of the launch of that [01:09:42.440] missile [01:09:44.480] they didn’t know it at the time, but [01:09:45.880] when they reviewed the film footage [01:09:48.120] there is a UFO circling the warhead and [01:09:52.520] shooting at it with a laser beam. [01:09:54.800] And of course, the usual suspects [01:09:57.840] attacked him when he came public in Omni [01:09:59.920] magazine in the ’70s and basically said [01:10:01.960] he’d seen this [01:10:03.200] and said that’s just a load of nonsense. [01:10:05.280] And to his great credit, I loved it one [01:10:07.960] of the things I I think we often [01:10:10.240] we tend, I certainly do in the media, [01:10:12.720] you tend to assume the worst about all [01:10:14.120] military and all intelligence. [01:10:15.640] Mhm. [01:10:16.160] But the thing I’ve learned, especially [01:10:18.440] from reporting from war zones, is there [01:10:21.360] really is an honor in the American [01:10:23.840] officer class. And these men and women [01:10:28.000] inculcated with a decency Mhm. that is [01:10:31.000] drilled into them. It’s a character [01:10:32.640] thing to be truthful. [01:10:34.400] And so, the commanding officer of Bob [01:10:37.320] Jacobs [01:10:38.640] he’d been there when they’d watched this [01:10:40.400] film. Mhm. And Bob asked him for support [01:10:43.800] and he supported him Mhm. and verified [01:10:46.320] that that’s exactly what happened and [01:10:48.800] that these two, I think CIA guys had [01:10:51.280] basically told them to shut up about it. [01:10:53.160] That’s exactly right. And so, the the [01:10:55.160] update here why Bob Jacobs is related at [01:10:57.080] all to Malmstrom is people don’t know [01:10:58.920] this. I have footage of Bob Jacobs Bob [01:11:02.000] Jacobs was stationed at Johnston Atoll [01:11:04.120] but in 1963 so a year after Bluegill. [01:11:07.880] Bob you had such an interesting [01:11:09.160] experience at Vandenberg in 64. I didn’t [01:11:12.080] realize you were actually stationed at [01:11:14.720] the Marshall Islands before that and [01:11:17.560] that you were involved in the Operation [01:11:19.160] Fishbowl tests. Is that right? First of [01:11:21.400] all I was officer in charge of optical [01:11:23.400] instrumentation at Vandenberg the 13th [01:11:26.120] security night photo squadron. [01:11:28.160] As such we were charged with high-speed [01:11:30.520] assortment photography of every single [01:11:32.520] missile missile launched down the [01:11:33.960] western test range. [01:11:35.640] We had a detachment at Johnston Island [01:11:37.680] in the Marshalls [01:11:39.160] and I was sent down there for a period [01:11:41.520] of time in I believe it was November of [01:11:44.000] 1963 [01:11:45.560] not 62. The scuttlebutt at the time by [01:11:48.480] every single person on that island when [01:11:50.920] I got there this is engineers [01:11:53.120] technicians my airman who’d been down [01:11:55.720] there before me [01:11:57.880] we were told that what happened is the [01:12:01.400] the Soviets had launched a nuke into [01:12:03.680] orbit up above us. [01:12:05.840] And JFK told Khrushchev take that down. [01:12:10.080] Khrushchev said I won’t do it. JFK said [01:12:13.400] then we’ll shoot it down. [01:12:15.360] And Khrushchev said you don’t have the [01:12:16.960] technology to do that. [01:12:19.000] We were down there according to the [01:12:21.040] common [01:12:22.080] talk of the time to shoot down that [01:12:24.400] nuclear [01:12:25.600] missile in in that nuclear weapon in [01:12:27.200] orbit. I was told [01:12:30.280] that [01:12:31.320] that that that launch had happened and [01:12:33.160] that the several things had happened [01:12:34.640] because of it. [01:12:35.880] First of all something had fallen down [01:12:38.720] toward the island from that explosion in [01:12:41.080] the sky. [01:12:42.240] The explosion lit up the entire South [01:12:43.960] Pacific and and caused all sorts of [01:12:46.360] alarm and reports of UFOs and so on. [01:12:51.400] And something had been recovered. I [01:12:53.600] never told what it was. So that that’s [01:12:56.160] fascinating. I actually want to be clear [01:12:57.800] the incident that I’m referring to is [01:12:59.480] the Bluegill triple prime test which is [01:13:01.560] at the end of operation Fishbowl in [01:13:03.800] October of 1962. [01:13:06.400] It’s October 26th, so it’s during the [01:13:08.880] Cuban missile crisis. And so you’re [01:13:11.840] saying that the kind of rumors at the [01:13:14.360] time, you know, at the bar sort of thing [01:13:17.760] were that Soviet warhead was actually [01:13:20.840] knocked out of the sky as a part of that [01:13:23.320] operation. Is that right? [01:13:26.440] That’s what I understand, yes. But [01:13:28.360] here’s what’s interesting. [01:13:30.240] We’ve never had nukes in space. No. I [01:13:33.080] not to my knowledge. So unless there’s [01:13:34.520] some double story here where like, you [01:13:37.600] know, we actually did take out a nuke in [01:13:39.280] space which I don’t think we did. [01:13:40.880] It sounds like an ex post facto style [01:13:43.080] disinformation operation. [01:13:44.160] That’s right. But even then there were [01:13:47.040] rumor widespread rumors of people on the [01:13:49.800] ground that there was a UFO shoot down [01:13:52.680] that had that’s taken place. And the [01:13:53.920] only alternative is is a nuke which [01:13:55.560] obviously isn’t true. So [01:13:57.480] I find that very interesting along with [01:13:59.160] if you there there were [01:14:01.120] there was a FOIA request in the National [01:14:02.920] Nuclear Security Administration and it [01:14:05.320] was for everything, you know, all these [01:14:06.880] UFO related acronyms. And this was [01:14:08.800] around Starfish Prime. So it was a [01:14:10.200] little earlier. And [01:14:12.520] they basically say the responsive [01:14:14.120] records, you know, we we we can’t give [01:14:16.000] you any of the responsive records [01:14:17.440] showing that there are responsive [01:14:18.760] records with those names in them. [01:14:22.080] And it says with the subject matter [01:14:23.680] expert we have to consult them on this [01:14:25.440] topic or whatever. So there are there’s [01:14:27.160] a lot in my opinion of circumstantial [01:14:29.080] evidence to support that. [01:14:29.840] mean my I keep on coming back to the [01:14:31.320] fact that if there’s a stinky dirty [01:14:33.040] secret [01:14:34.240] you don’t write it down. Right. And if [01:14:36.640] if Harold as he alleged was working for [01:14:39.400] example in the um [01:14:41.920] the White House undercover [01:14:44.760] um they wouldn’t put his name in the [01:14:47.200] address book. You know, they I mean I’m [01:14:49.480] still keeping an open mind and I I think [01:14:51.600] it’s slightly naive to think that [01:14:53.880] everything would be written down. Well, [01:14:55.560] I’ve also seen his diaries, which are [01:14:58.280] now in a safe place and they’re backed [01:15:00.240] up, so don’t mess with them. And I have [01:15:03.000] seen a lot of meetings between Harold [01:15:05.760] Malmgren and Richard Bissell. [01:15:07.800] Oh, wow. [01:15:08.480] In the diary, Richard Bissell who [01:15:10.240] founded Area 51, mayor of Area 51. [01:15:13.240] was key to Harold Malmgren’s claims that [01:15:15.960] he was read into the existence of the [01:15:18.440] legacy UAP retrieval program by Richard [01:15:21.120] Bissell. There you go. Yeah, so [01:15:23.280] So who went on to become a deputy [01:15:24.560] director of the CIA? [01:15:25.480] That’s right. He went on to become the [01:15:26.800] number two at at the CIA. So [01:15:30.040] fascinating. What you know, along the [01:15:32.240] lines of what we were talking about [01:15:33.560] earlier, you’ve probably met more people [01:15:36.840] in and around these programs than [01:15:38.840] anybody else alive. And from the outside [01:15:41.720] Please don’t say that too loudly. [01:15:44.600] You know, it’s funny when I came through [01:15:46.080] on the weekend to come here. Um [01:15:49.640] I was actually nervous. Mhm. [01:15:51.160] I’ve never been nervous coming into the [01:15:52.960] US before. [01:15:53.800] Mhm. But there’s been a lot of stories [01:15:55.400] in the Australian press about young [01:15:57.160] people who [01:15:59.080] were just turned away by border [01:16:00.600] protection for no good reason and [01:16:02.840] harassed and for no good reason. And [01:16:05.000] there’s been a change of culture at the [01:16:06.480] border. [01:16:06.960] Mhm. And I have to admit I had my [01:16:10.560] computer on auto delete if it was opened [01:16:13.720] Yeah. uh when I came [01:16:14.720] Wow. [01:16:15.040] when I came through customs. Wow. And I [01:16:18.360] was ready to go live on national [01:16:21.120] television if I was detained by border [01:16:22.760] protection. [01:16:23.400] Wow. Which actually happened to me after [01:16:25.640] I did the Grusch story. Really? [01:16:27.360] Yeah, after I did the Grusch story, I [01:16:28.680] was detained and held by CBP. Oh my god. [01:16:32.160] And um [01:16:33.760] a mutual friend of ours made some [01:16:35.000] inquiries and confirmed that there’d [01:16:36.600] been some kind of a flag put on my um [01:16:39.880] on my file. I believe Unfortunately, it [01:16:42.200] was so high level they couldn’t access [01:16:44.200] it. [01:16:45.040] But basically, somebody I suspect from [01:16:46.680] the agency had flagged that we want to [01:16:48.800] know when Coulthart comes through next [01:16:51.120] and let’s cause them some mischief. And [01:16:53.440] I have to admit I um [01:16:56.320] we have a euphemism in Australia tearing [01:16:57.880] somebody a new [ __ ] [01:16:59.600] I I I just wasn’t going to put up with [01:17:01.320] it. And I I I very [01:17:04.080] I summoned my anger and basically yelled [01:17:06.400] at border protection and said, “I [01:17:08.560] strongly advise that you [01:17:11.320] get on the phone, whoever it is that’s [01:17:12.920] flagged me, contact them now or tell [01:17:15.680] them I will be going live on television [01:17:19.280] in about 10 minutes to talk about the [01:17:21.080] fact that I’m being illegally held. I [01:17:23.040] have a valid visa. You have no good [01:17:24.560] reason to hold me. If you want to fight, [01:17:26.520] you can have one.” And I was let out. [01:17:28.880] Good for you, man. Well, I think you’re [01:17:31.760] ho- hopefully you’re protected and [01:17:33.040] you’re protected by the by the public [01:17:34.920] cuz I think you [01:17:35.720] Well, it’s funny. I I look, I I must [01:17:37.160] confess I’ve been quite humbled coming [01:17:39.160] to where we are. Sure, everybody here. [01:17:41.120] No, see you are. I I’ve been mobbed. [01:17:43.520] Yeah, I believe it. [01:17:44.280] And and and it’s funny my my wife and [01:17:46.160] children think it’s hilarious that that [01:17:48.000] there is this fandom. Uh there’s even a [01:17:50.240] guy, God bless him, in Germany who’s [01:17:52.360] done a three-dimensional model of me [01:17:55.440] with far too much hair, which is quite [01:17:57.160] flattering. [01:17:58.240] Doesn’t show the gut and it doesn’t show [01:17:59.720] the lack of hair. And um [01:18:01.840] my wife and children just wanted to know [01:18:03.200] whether it had a bobblehead like this so [01:18:04.800] we could stick it on the front of the [01:18:05.760] car. [01:18:06.240] Oh my god, that’s amazing. [01:18:09.040] That’s hilarious. But you know, I’m I’m [01:18:11.280] really touched by the fact that people [01:18:13.640] care about this issue. And and just to [01:18:15.680] make it serious for a moment, [01:18:18.280] um [01:18:19.480] the issue is still ridiculed in much of [01:18:22.520] the [01:18:23.680] British-style English-language [01:18:26.560] Australasian press. You know, I get [01:18:28.720] mocked and ridiculed by my journalist [01:18:30.480] colleagues cuz I take UFOs seriously. [01:18:33.280] You know, and people will pejoratively [01:18:34.800] sneer, “How’s your UFO obsession, Ross?” [01:18:37.800] Or there’s actually a national [01:18:39.160] broadcaster, the ABC in Australia. [01:18:41.920] And one poppers [ __ ] on that broadcaster [01:18:45.400] said [01:18:46.520] Oh, Ross has called out. He’s been [01:18:48.200] investigating UFOs. He’s either [01:18:51.160] completely crazy or he’s the best [01:18:54.280] journalist ever. Yeah, that’s the best [01:18:56.360] compliment you could ever get. [01:18:57.520] was a snide It was deliberately snide [01:18:59.920] because the clear inference was I was [01:19:01.400] You can’t be the best journalist [01:19:02.640] a [ __ ] house journalist and I was [01:19:04.080] obviously going crazy. [01:19:05.760] But the thing I’m really heartened by is [01:19:09.480] the degree of interest [01:19:12.360] that sparked me getting hired by [01:19:13.800] NewsNation is incredible. When we did [01:19:17.040] the David Grusch interview [01:19:18.480] Mhm. [01:19:19.160] NewsNation, admittedly not at the time a [01:19:21.640] very high-rating news channel. [01:19:23.080] No, you brought it on the map. It [01:19:25.120] escalated its ratings by 990%. [01:19:30.440] That was written up in the industry [01:19:31.760] press. [01:19:32.240] It’s amazing. And they still say to me [01:19:34.160] that UFOs UFOs is the issue that saved [01:19:36.920] the network. Yeah. [01:19:38.040] And it’s really interesting issue [01:19:39.600] because [01:19:40.880] the audience, no matter what the [01:19:42.960] mainstream media do to ignore this [01:19:44.920] issue, you know, you’ve got the [01:19:46.400] doctrinaire attitude of the New York [01:19:48.400] Times. We’re not going to do UFO [01:19:50.200] stories. We’re going to reject the David [01:19:51.920] Grusch story. [01:19:53.280] You know, the the Jake the Jake [01:19:55.280] The Jake Barber story wouldn’t fly in [01:19:57.040] any of the national media. [01:19:58.320] Sure. [01:19:58.760] I don’t think it’s had a coverage [01:19:59.720] anywhere. I don’t think it’s had a [01:20:01.040] coverage yet. [01:20:02.440] and yet [01:20:03.720] the public [01:20:05.600] they make it clear they really want this [01:20:08.000] story. [01:20:09.120] And they can smell another journalistic [01:20:11.640] euphemism I’ll give you. They can smell [01:20:13.040] a smelly turd when they smell one. Mhm. [01:20:15.480] And [01:20:16.640] this story stinks to high heaven. Yeah. [01:20:20.240] And they can smell [ __ ] [01:20:22.160] And what fascinates me is particularly [01:20:25.640] the younger generation. Mhm. I’m amazed. [01:20:28.920] I’ve never had a story I’ve always been [01:20:31.200] the kind of old fart of journalism, you [01:20:33.040] know, [01:20:33.960] uh and doing investigative stories that [01:20:36.560] not many people are really that [01:20:37.600] interested in, but they matter because [01:20:39.440] they’re sort of interesting points of [01:20:40.920] principle. [01:20:42.280] This one really captures the imagination [01:20:44.920] of the millennials and the X generation. [01:20:47.240] It’s amplifying what I do on NewsNation. [01:20:50.920] And I don’t know how to use Instagram or [01:20:52.680] Tik Tok, but there are kids that are [01:20:54.240] making a living out of repackaging my [01:20:56.200] stories on Instagram and Tik Tok, and my [01:20:58.680] daughters are constantly coming to me [01:21:00.080] saying, “Dad, have a look at this. This [01:21:01.960] guy’s making a fortune out of doing your [01:21:03.720] stories on Tik Tok.” And I go, “Look, I [01:21:05.640] don’t know how to do it. I haven’t got [01:21:07.040] time to do it. Good luck to them, you [01:21:09.120] know, that’s great.” But what it’s done [01:21:11.040] is it’s generated this [01:21:13.000] massive audience. Mhm. And I’m not [01:21:16.280] trying not to sound boastful, but you [01:21:18.240] know, we’re routinely getting millions [01:21:20.120] of views for stories that frankly, I’m [01:21:22.640] genuinely surprised and excited and [01:21:24.640] interested that people are watching [01:21:26.080] them. Well, you’re doing an amazing job. [01:21:28.200] And just a recent one which I I was [01:21:30.840] watching in preparation for this and I I [01:21:33.080] was so fascinated by is you were um in [01:21:35.920] Sedona, Arizona. Oh, yeah. [01:21:38.160] And it would like if you watch watch [01:21:40.400] this video, it is the most mind-blowing [01:21:43.960] video ever. Let me tell you. Let me tell [01:21:45.680] you. I am in no doubt whatsoever, Jesse, [01:21:48.320] that there is a deep underground [01:21:50.440] military bunker that was built in the [01:21:52.120] 1950s [01:21:53.080] Uh-huh. under Secret Mountain. That’s [01:21:55.400] what it’s called. That’s the hilarious [01:21:57.320] thing is somebody’s secret It’s called [01:21:59.320] Secret Mountain. Unbelievable. near [01:22:01.160] Sedona. It’s within 5-7 km of Sedona. [01:22:04.840] And more importantly, there’s a place [01:22:06.400] called Secret Canyon [01:22:09.000] where there’s allegedly a portal. [01:22:10.840] Some kind of interdimensional portal. [01:22:13.040] And I thought all of this was just crazy [01:22:14.880] nonsense. [01:22:16.120] But [01:22:17.280] there are incredibly brave and super [01:22:20.480] super interesting people, Jeremiah [01:22:22.520] Hostetler and his wife Alexandra, [01:22:24.440] particularly, [01:22:25.840] who live in Sedona. [01:22:27.480] And they’ve been doing some really [01:22:29.560] clever on-the-ground research. [01:22:32.080] Mhm. And one of the things we did a lot [01:22:34.160] of the stuff we got, as so often [01:22:36.080] happens, you can’t put it in the story [01:22:38.240] because you can’t get these people to go [01:22:40.200] on camera. [01:22:40.920] Mhm. [01:22:41.640] But there was a number of people who [01:22:43.560] would privately admit that they’d been [01:22:45.760] walking in what is public land. [01:22:49.200] Public parkland. [01:22:50.400] Mhm. And they’d be stopped by men with [01:22:52.360] guns, men in uniform with with with [01:22:55.040] automatic weapons, clearly highly [01:22:56.720] trained elite soldiers, probably tier [01:22:59.200] one operatives from the way they moved. [01:23:01.280] And they would basically order people [01:23:03.360] “Go away, or we will kill you.” [01:23:05.800] No no mucking around. [01:23:07.640] And there are sightings, numerous [01:23:09.640] sightings, of what we saw. I saw it with [01:23:12.240] my own eyes. [01:23:13.640] I was told that the best time of night [01:23:16.680] is around about 1:30 in the morning. [01:23:19.240] And if you looked at a particular place [01:23:20.920] over Secret Mountain, you would see [01:23:24.120] this big orb being by helicopters rising [01:23:28.960] from behind Secret Mountain. [01:23:30.840] So I was skeptical, but we went out with [01:23:33.160] a local lady, Melinda Leslie, who has [01:23:35.160] some good quality uh military-grade [01:23:38.280] night vision goggles. [01:23:40.280] And we watched at 1:30 in the morning, [01:23:42.400] and sure enough [01:23:44.640] up comes this beautiful golden orb, [01:23:47.320] gigantic. It pulses. It’s plasmatic. [01:23:51.200] It slowly moves off, and [01:23:53.280] the way it moved [01:23:55.080] you couldn’t tell if it’s because it got [01:23:57.480] smaller or whether it went so fast that [01:23:59.640] it just disappeared so quickly, but it [01:24:01.560] just disappeared. [01:24:03.400] And they were they were being escorted [01:24:05.040] by military Black Hawk helicopters. [01:24:08.440] Dozens of them. [01:24:10.080] I mean, the helicopter fuel bill alone [01:24:13.280] for the evening that we’re watching them [01:24:14.800] must have been somewhere between $50 t o [01 : 24 : 16.920]$ 100,000. [01:24:19.160] Somebody is paying huge money [01:24:22.680] to operate [01:24:25.640] orbs with no visible means of propulsion [01:24:28.760] over secret mountain in Sedona. [01:24:31.440] And it’s funny because [01:24:33.200] um one of the people told us [01:24:35.680] that um [01:24:37.240] if you want to hide something [01:24:39.080] you hide it in plain sight. [01:24:41.760] And that’s the best way to describe [01:24:44.000] what’s going on in what I think is [01:24:46.040] happening in Sedona. [01:24:47.680] And Do you think that’s NHI, non-human? [01:24:50.360] Do you think it’s man-made or I mean [01:24:52.400] there are allegations that that base is [01:24:54.560] NHI. I’ve had people who are psionic [01:24:57.160] tell me that they have detected NHI in [01:24:59.400] that in that area. Sedona is also a [01:25:02.080] strange place. It’s a place everybody [01:25:04.400] says when you go weird stuff happens. [01:25:06.920] Yeah, no it does. And and I I never [01:25:09.800] expected to see such overt displays of [01:25:13.680] obviously anomalous [01:25:16.160] technology [01:25:17.800] in company with obviously [01:25:21.240] military style aircraft. And you show [01:25:24.160] footage it’s which is amazing and then [01:25:26.480] you also show all these sort of logical [01:25:28.200] fallacies of the cover story where it’s [01:25:30.000] like I think there’s like a contract [01:25:31.640] between Northern Arizona University but [01:25:34.120] like none of the professors ever show up [01:25:36.120] or whatever. [01:25:36.840] and and it’s and it’s funny because um [01:25:38.800] what we’re talking about is the Bradshaw [01:25:40.400] Ranch and [01:25:42.000] there’s allegedly a portal in the [01:25:44.840] Bradshaw Ranch that was seen by the [01:25:47.480] former owner of the ranch Linda [01:25:49.080] Bradshaw. [01:25:50.400] And she actually took photographs of it. [01:25:52.320] And um [01:25:53.480] it opened up in a particular area of [01:25:57.320] the ground around that ranch which just [01:25:59.640] so happens to be the area that’s fenced [01:26:01.640] off. [01:26:02.600] And we noticed that there is a tower in [01:26:05.840] the middle of that area. This is [01:26:06.960] supposedly a deserted ranch. [01:26:09.560] There’s nobody there. There’s no [01:26:10.960] electrical power. And there’s solar [01:26:13.160] panels on this post [01:26:15.400] that has a camera. [01:26:17.720] Now if you’re protecting the security of [01:26:20.120] what is supposedly an academic research [01:26:22.280] institution, [01:26:23.640] you have the camera pointed out [01:26:26.280] so that you can see people coming from [01:26:27.640] the outside. Yeah. But, you know where [01:26:29.400] the camera’s pointing? Where? It’s [01:26:31.160] pointing exactly at the point where [01:26:32.960] Linda Bradshaw says she saw the portal. [01:26:36.320] And then the other thing we noticed when [01:26:37.440] we were there, and this was picked up by [01:26:39.560] my friend Paul, who’s an Australian [01:26:41.600] ground penetrating radar [01:26:43.880] operator. [01:26:45.160] He um [01:26:46.680] he heard a humming. Mhm. And he kicks a [01:26:48.880] bush aside, and there’s this gigantic [01:26:50.920] three-phase power power box [01:26:53.800] with a cable definitely going into the [01:26:56.200] ground. Wow. [01:26:57.760] Three-phase power, and it’s humming. [01:27:00.680] And then we walk a bit further around, [01:27:02.000] and there’s another one. [01:27:04.240] And there’s massive amounts of [01:27:07.160] electrical power going into the ground [01:27:10.640] under Bradshaw Ranch. [01:27:12.240] And [01:27:13.400] we didn’t put this in the um [01:27:16.440] feature-length film that we put to air [01:27:18.160] on primetime, but it runs in the [01:27:19.760] full-length interview with Paul, my [01:27:21.640] friend. [01:27:22.120] Mhm. [01:27:23.480] He did a ground penetrating radar check [01:27:26.160] on the road around Bradshaw Ranch, [01:27:29.560] and we found a 50-ft wide reinforced [01:27:32.680] steel concrete, highly visible on ground [01:27:35.240] penetrating radar. Literally just under [01:27:37.520] the ground. Wow. I mean, I’m in no doubt [01:27:40.080] whatsoever it’s there. Can you get down [01:27:41.840] there? No. I mean, I was half tempted to [01:27:44.120] get a shovel and start digging it out. [01:27:46.160] But, the the interesting thing is um [01:27:48.720] the other thing we we we learned about [01:27:50.400] was [01:27:51.400] there’s an egress point into this whole [01:27:53.600] secret facility [01:27:55.720] called the Clarkdale Cement Plant. [01:27:58.720] And the weird thing about it is it’s [01:28:00.200] nowhere near Secret Mountain. Mhm. It’s [01:28:02.480] halfway between two mountain ranges, but [01:28:05.400] it if you run a direct line between [01:28:07.840] those two mountain ranges, and put it [01:28:09.960] through Bradshaw Ranch, where we know [01:28:11.440] there’s a tunnel, or at least we picked [01:28:13.240] up the tunnel, and if you match the [01:28:14.960] walls of the tunnel [01:28:16.680] with where it goes, it goes directly [01:28:20.200] to the Clarkdale Cement Plant. [01:28:22.560] And one of the things we heard about [01:28:24.800] from locals was that 20 years ago the [01:28:27.920] drilling was so intense that things were [01:28:30.360] shaking on the bookshelves and they were [01:28:32.040] obviously tunneling underneath the [01:28:34.280] village at Clarkdale where these people [01:28:36.360] live. [01:28:37.400] And people were even compensated for [01:28:40.000] damage. And you know, I mean [01:28:44.000] I don’t understand as a journalist. I [01:28:46.480] mean, I’ve been taught [01:28:48.800] journalism [01:28:50.880] to do the work on the ground and go and [01:28:53.200] ask the question. Don’t accept what [01:28:54.640] you’re told by some defense PR flunky. [01:28:58.240] Go and check and do the basic checking. [01:29:01.600] And [01:29:02.360] I think the interesting thing is that [01:29:03.760] this is all coming out at a time [01:29:06.520] in journalism where sadly investigative [01:29:09.120] journalism is in serious decline because [01:29:11.760] even the great masthead newspapers like [01:29:13.840] the New York Times, the Wash Post, the [01:29:15.720] LA Times, the Boston Globe, the [01:29:17.520] Baltimore Sun, [01:29:18.960] papers I grew up like I didn’t have Bay [01:29:21.400] City Rollers on my wall. I used to paste [01:29:23.400] up big newspaper investigations. That’s [01:29:25.640] what I always wanted to be. And um [01:29:29.080] it’s sad because that era of great big [01:29:31.880] budget investigative journalism where [01:29:33.560] they would deploy teams of people to go [01:29:35.800] and investigate stuff, it’s well and [01:29:37.920] truly over. And the big unspoken secret [01:29:40.640] about the New York Times is even the New [01:29:42.440] York Times doesn’t have the resources to [01:29:44.440] do this kind of journalism. [01:29:46.400] But all you need to do, if I was the [01:29:47.680] editor of a newspaper today, I would put [01:29:51.280] 10 days [01:29:52.760] into deploying a couple of investigative [01:29:54.920] journalists to go up from Phoenix and [01:29:58.680] have a look at what I saw in Sedona. And [01:30:01.320] you will find a deep underground [01:30:03.920] military facility that is highly [01:30:06.120] protected, has hydraulically operated [01:30:08.560] doors in the side of mountain sides, and [01:30:10.880] is secretly operating what I suspect is [01:30:13.320] non-human technology. It’s amazing, and [01:30:15.800] it corroborates, [01:30:18.000] you know, Larry Sanders who wrote a book [01:30:19.960] about deep underground military bases. [01:30:21.920] Sauder’s. Richard Sauder, sorry, thank [01:30:23.800] you. And Catherine Austin Fitts who [01:30:26.000] talks about large, you know, trillions [01:30:27.920] of dollars missing from the the federal [01:30:29.640] budget, from the DOD budget to to go [01:30:31.920] towards these these projects. So, [01:30:34.480] and then that Kobit’s story and other [01:30:36.360] story, Randy Anderson’s story. So, At [01:30:38.680] what point though do I mean, this is the [01:30:40.560] thing I don’t get. I really don’t get [01:30:42.360] it. It’s almost like there’s a willful [01:30:43.720] blindness in [01:30:45.680] Cuz why do we expect the mainstream [01:30:47.920] media to follow this? Because they [01:30:49.800] should. Yeah. But they No, they they [01:30:52.200] really should. It’s like the most [01:30:54.160] interesting, important thing and it’s if [01:30:57.040] you talk about like an Archimedes lever, [01:30:58.640] like the point of most leverage. I mean, [01:31:01.160] you can cover like local grifts, right? [01:31:04.640] But why don’t you cover like the [01:31:06.600] trillions of dollars missing from the [01:31:08.640] from the DOD’s budget or why don’t you, [01:31:10.640] you know, this stuff? [01:31:11.720] No, I love that quote and it’s a true [01:31:13.120] quote. I actually dug it out when I was [01:31:14.440] writing my book that Donald Rumsfeld [01:31:16.080] admitted that there was something Is it [01:31:17.400] 23 trillion dollars missing from the [01:31:19.680] DOD’s budget? [01:31:21.200] trillion missing in an audit the day [01:31:23.560] before 9/11 happened. You can make that [01:31:25.480] speech. [01:31:26.560] Trillions of dollars are disappearing [01:31:28.600] from the American defense budget. [01:31:30.400] Documented. That’s actually one thing I [01:31:32.560] really liked about what Doug was doing. [01:31:35.600] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Musk was basically [01:31:37.440] saying, “Why the hell do you not have [01:31:40.520] the acquittal numbering that allows you [01:31:43.360] to reconcile what this money is for with [01:31:46.680] where it’s being spent?” [01:31:47.880] Well, there is an amazing, I think it [01:31:49.280] was like Babylon B like headline or [01:31:51.640] something and it was “Elon Musk leaves [01:31:54.120] job of making government more efficient [01:31:56.320] for easier job of allowing humans to [01:31:58.560] occupy Mars.” Which is like this guy [01:32:00.880] doesn’t give up on anything.” You know, [01:32:04.560] the a successful car company hadn’t been [01:32:06.520] built in the US since like the 1910s or [01:32:09.480] something. And you have him build Tesla, [01:32:11.920] you have him single-handedly [01:32:13.200] resuscitate, you know, [01:32:15.360] a version of NASA with SpaceX. And and [01:32:17.800] and he gives up. [01:32:18.880] With the with the government efficiency. [01:32:21.320] I had to interview Elon in 2015 [01:32:24.320] That’s amazing. I didn’t know that. [01:32:25.720] 60 Minutes. [01:32:26.400] Wow, how was that? Well, it was funny [01:32:28.560] because I honestly genuinely had the [01:32:31.000] feeling that like 1% of his brain was [01:32:33.600] answering my questions and the the other [01:32:35.840] 99% was working on another problem. [01:32:38.640] But the thing I was really impressed [01:32:40.240] with was he he was excited to show me [01:32:42.680] around the SpaceX factory in LA because [01:32:46.640] that was where they were building the [01:32:47.720] new rockets. And a lot of the [01:32:50.960] people in SpaceX, but particularly in [01:32:52.920] the Tesla factory right next door, are [01:32:55.080] Aussies. Mhm. Because the Australians [01:32:57.240] had laid off all of their car industry. [01:32:59.240] We completely destroyed in an act of [01:33:01.720] utter stupidity our entire car industry. [01:33:04.920] And so a lot of those engineers went to [01:33:06.720] work for Elon. And he loved Aussie [01:33:08.600] engineers. [01:33:09.920] But the thing I was really impressed [01:33:11.240] with was he knew more [01:33:14.680] about every aspect of the production [01:33:17.160] line than anybody [01:33:19.520] that he was showing us that day. And it [01:33:21.560] wasn’t some big performance. He really [01:33:24.080] did know. And he was asking about metal [01:33:27.280] tolerances and [01:33:29.200] you know, he really knew his stuff. [01:33:30.760] Every of that production line he knew [01:33:33.640] intimately. And you could see he had [01:33:36.040] everybody on his toes. And frankly, [01:33:39.000] that’s if you’re going to be running a [01:33:40.120] rocket business or an electric car [01:33:41.960] business, that’s exactly the kind of [01:33:44.040] propriety you want. [01:33:45.760] No, it’s it’s he’s incredibly [01:33:47.520] impressive. Yeah. He has a unique mind [01:33:50.200] and ability to to make things happen. [01:33:52.400] Albeit albeit, I’m sure he’s probably [01:33:54.040] highly annoying to live with. I’m sure. [01:33:56.280] And probably hiding something when it [01:33:58.160] comes to UFO issue because why [01:34:00.280] he’s been written. I’ve been I’ve been [01:34:02.560] told he’s been written. Uh yeah, I I [01:34:04.720] think so, too. Um speaking of which, [01:34:07.320] speaking of high-level people that [01:34:08.720] you’ve spoken to, you were interviewed [01:34:10.920] by Don Jr. by the son of the sitting [01:34:13.480] president before you broke the Jake [01:34:15.000] Barber story. What was that like and did [01:34:17.400] it give you any hope as far as American [01:34:20.000] movement on disclosure at the highest [01:34:21.840] level? [01:34:22.320] if Don Trump Sr. listens to his son, Don [01:34:25.280] Trump Jr. is very engaged and interested [01:34:28.320] in UFOs. [01:34:29.920] And in a in a really well-informed way, [01:34:32.120] as well. I mean, [01:34:33.840] um he’s been briefed by a a lot of [01:34:37.160] people and there’s been a lot of Well, [01:34:39.760] not a lot, but there’s been multiple [01:34:41.360] secret briefings of the Trump camp [01:34:43.720] before they came into government. [01:34:45.840] And [01:34:46.880] it’s interesting because I am persuaded, [01:34:50.160] not at the moment that I’m seeing any [01:34:51.680] action, but I am persuaded that people [01:34:53.760] like Tulsi Gabbard, Kash Patel in the [01:34:57.400] FBI, Dols Tulsi, of course, is the DNI, [01:35:00.000] the Director of National Intelligence, [01:35:02.200] um John Ratcliffe at the CIA, these are [01:35:04.360] all people who’ve previously expressed a [01:35:07.000] strong desire [01:35:09.200] to get to the truth of the UAP mystery [01:35:13.040] and I don’t think it’s any coincidence [01:35:15.520] that um Representative Anna Paulina [01:35:17.800] Luna, when she was [01:35:19.560] tweeting earlier this week about what a [01:35:21.800] hopeless cause AARO is, that’s the [01:35:23.920] Pentagon Yeah. UFO investigation office. [01:35:26.880] Good for her, by the [01:35:27.680] She She made the observation that they [01:35:29.240] were obviously a waste of money and [01:35:31.080] should be defunded. And she implied that [01:35:33.080] the money should go to someone else and [01:35:34.640] I think that’s the FBI she’s talking [01:35:36.360] about. [01:35:36.760] Yeah. Cuz I’m told that the briefing [01:35:39.080] that the FBI gave in Congress really [01:35:42.320] blew people away. And watch that FBI [01:35:47.280] ongoing investigation. I’ve dealt with [01:35:49.640] some of the people on the investigation [01:35:51.400] team. [01:35:52.480] And [01:35:53.800] I like G-men. They’re they’re like dogs [01:35:56.280] on a bone and they’re looking at crimes. [01:35:59.520] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because ultimately, if [01:36:01.200] what we’re talking about here is true, [01:36:03.760] Mhm. David Grusch, Mhm. [01:36:06.280] Jake Barber, Mhm. they have insinuated [01:36:09.200] and alleged, all right, in Jake’s case, [01:36:11.120] that people have been murdered to [01:36:13.400] protect the secret. Yeah. It’s a capital [01:36:16.400] crime. Yeah. There are people who I [01:36:19.200] suspect are very nervous right now in [01:36:21.800] the legacy program because they are [01:36:23.560] under active FBI investigation. Yeah, I [01:36:26.960] wonder what the mentality is of somebody [01:36:30.080] or yeah, probably. [01:36:31.280] arrogant. I have no doubt they think [01:36:33.400] they’re going to get away with it. [01:36:34.440] Uh-huh. And you know what? What? They [01:36:36.680] probably will. Oh, no, don’t say that. [01:36:39.480] No. [01:36:40.600] I’m pretty bleak. I I I I’m not I [01:36:43.640] actually had an argument earlier on [01:36:44.920] today, actually. Well, not an argument, [01:36:46.640] but a a free and frank exchange of views [01:36:48.840] with [01:36:49.200] Yeah. a lawyer who’s been liaising with [01:36:51.720] Congress um and they were having a bit [01:36:54.800] of go at me because I I talked about how [01:36:57.000] I’m talking to legacy program [01:36:58.760] whistleblowers who want to come forward, [01:37:01.120] yeah, but they’re wary of coming forward [01:37:04.000] and they took a swipe at me and [01:37:05.440] basically said, [01:37:07.360] “We’ve got all these protections in [01:37:08.720] Congress. You should bring them in and [01:37:10.040] encourage them to come in.” And I said, [01:37:12.280] “Well, hang on a bloody moment. Look at [01:37:14.280] what they’ve done with David Grusch’s [01:37:15.800] allegations. [01:37:16.640] That’s right. Sweet FA. Yeah. You know, [01:37:19.000] David gave them first hand direct [01:37:21.680] information from his sources of where to [01:37:24.640] look, where to find the spacecraft. [01:37:27.400] Yes. Where to literally go and open the [01:37:29.080] door. Oh, by the way, there’s a there’s [01:37:31.440] a spacecraft recovered from Aztec. [01:37:33.440] Yeah. Open this door. Oh, yeah, that’s [01:37:34.960] the one from Kingman. That’s right. You [01:37:36.680] know, Who’s the person in charge? What’s [01:37:39.080] the title of the program? What’s the [01:37:40.600] code name? He gave them chapter and [01:37:42.680] verse. [01:37:43.760] How many subpoenas have been issued, [01:37:45.920] Senate Select Committee for Intelligence [01:37:47.840] for any of that information. Nada. So [01:37:50.600] crazy. [01:37:51.120] [ __ ] nada. [01:37:52.480] And so, I don’t think Congress is doing [01:37:54.560] its job. And frankly, I do get the [01:37:56.840] impression that congressional staffers [01:37:59.080] are captive to the defense [01:38:00.640] establishment. Yeah, I mean, that feels [01:38:02.840] right. I mean, the last time around the [01:38:04.280] UAPDA was killed by Mike Turner where [01:38:06.880] like, you know, his largest donors were [01:38:08.880] all defense [01:38:09.640] I mean, it’s funny cuz I mean, a lot of [01:38:11.160] the work is done in this preliminary [01:38:14.160] investigation of allegations by people [01:38:16.520] like David Grusch, by people like Lou [01:38:19.320] Elizondo, people like Jake Barba. When [01:38:22.120] they’ve gone in and given evidence in [01:38:23.800] camera, in SCIFs, as they all have done [01:38:26.720] to the Congress, [01:38:28.480] the people that have been sitting there [01:38:29.840] have been staffers. Yeah. [01:38:32.280] And they’re good people. They’re [01:38:33.520] well-intentioned, good people. [01:38:35.800] But one of the things Jake Barba told me [01:38:38.120] when he was um [01:38:40.560] giving his direct evidence of the legacy [01:38:42.680] program, first-person evidence. So, I [01:38:45.160] mean, people say, “Where’s the [01:38:46.680] evidence?” The first-person evidence of [01:38:49.160] Jake Barba was given [01:38:51.360] to the Senate Select Committee for [01:38:53.520] Intelligence. [01:38:54.320] Yes. [01:38:55.680] And um [01:38:57.240] one of the staffers on that committee [01:38:59.920] was concerned for his own safety [01:39:02.200] Yep. [01:39:02.920] and asked Jake, [01:39:04.840] “Are you able to help me get security [01:39:06.600] because somebody from the Defense [01:39:08.360] Department is ordering helicopters to [01:39:10.160] fly across and over my home. They’re [01:39:11.840] harassing my home.” And that’s the kind [01:39:14.280] of thing that the Defense Department was [01:39:15.880] doing. They were buzzing [01:39:17.800] a guy with Black Hawk helicopters just [01:39:20.800] hovering over his home as an act of [01:39:22.560] intimidation. A staffer working for the [01:39:25.320] Congress. I know exactly who you’re [01:39:27.640] talking about, and he was providing a [01:39:29.320] pipeline of legacy operators. He was the [01:39:32.440] one who basically talked to the Senate [01:39:35.600] the Select Senate Committee on the [01:39:37.080] topic. So, I’m not blaming the staffers [01:39:38.720] because these people are intimidated. [01:39:40.880] They have families, too. And I don’t [01:39:43.120] think the public realized that this is [01:39:45.280] how the game is being played. You’ve got [01:39:47.920] a vast national security state and it is [01:39:51.280] truly a deep state protecting itself. [01:39:54.520] It’s self-interest misusing the [01:39:56.400] resources of the state, your money, your [01:39:58.960] taxpayer dollars to essentially bully [01:40:01.400] and intimidate and in some cases murder [01:40:03.280] people. Yeah. It’s [01:40:05.360] That’s where I sort of go There are so [01:40:07.440] many times when I sit back in the story [01:40:09.480] and I go [01:40:11.080] Hells bells. [01:40:12.640] This is like a thriller. It’s like a [01:40:14.080] John Grisham thriller. [01:40:15.520] Truly. But it’s true. Yes. And [01:40:19.040] it’s being ignored by the premier [01:40:21.840] national security reporters of the land. [01:40:24.720] I mean any sane, rational editor who has [01:40:29.560] an ounce of journalistic respect for [01:40:31.520] himself in his bones would deploy staff [01:40:34.280] to at least go and check out the basic [01:40:37.040] allegations. See see if the 170-odd Q [01:40:41.040] cleared, you know, people seeing UFOs [01:40:43.400] around our most sensitive sites, [01:40:44.800] shutting them down in certain cases, [01:40:46.840] might be somewhat credible. Like maybe [01:40:49.000] maybe check that out. Yeah, it’s crazy. [01:40:50.920] But you know what I’m enjoying? I’m [01:40:51.960] enjoying the tyranny of the internet. [01:40:53.960] The fact that you and I are actually [01:40:56.280] generating programs. In your case, [01:40:58.360] you’re actually making a living by the [01:40:59.600] looks of it [01:41:00.840] doing stories on this phenomenon and [01:41:02.880] reporting on it. And it’s interesting [01:41:05.400] because [01:41:06.840] that proves to me there is an audience [01:41:09.280] there that want this stuff. [01:41:12.040] There there there really isn’t it? I [01:41:13.480] think it resonates deeply with what they [01:41:15.560] intuit about reality themselves, which [01:41:17.920] is that there’s more and that you know, [01:41:20.480] there there have been sort of secret [01:41:21.920] programs around these things hidden from [01:41:23.840] them for a very long time. And with AI [01:41:26.600] and with the internet, you can vigilante [01:41:29.040] corroborate and research a lot of this [01:41:30.720] stuff yourself. And so I think people [01:41:32.960] are waking up post-pandemic. As much as [01:41:35.520] I share your [01:41:37.120] pessimism around government action on [01:41:39.360] the topic, I do think the the larger, [01:41:42.200] you know, public is waking up to these [01:41:44.600] broader realities and that’s exciting. [01:41:46.560] I’ll tell you this. [01:41:48.120] If you accept psionics, which of course [01:41:50.320] the debunkers won’t, Yeah. they’re [01:41:52.240] saying disclosure is coming. [01:41:54.760] Interesting. Wow. Yeah. Well, that it it [01:41:58.000] There’s a perturbation in the force, [01:41:59.640] Luke. [01:42:02.080] Yeah, well, hey, I think the government [01:42:04.040] itself accepts psionics as we know [01:42:05.920] through the their remote viewing [01:42:07.040] programs that they had. [01:42:08.000] that’s the other doublethink, you know, [01:42:10.400] we’re told and there’s a whole movie [01:42:12.240] made about it debunking the idea of [01:42:14.200] telepathy and psychics and psionics. And [01:42:16.800] you you’ve only got to read the CIA [01:42:19.240] gateway documents in the CIA files and [01:42:21.680] they show that that’s actually not true. [01:42:24.320] That that that essentially [01:42:26.440] everybody took it very, very seriously [01:42:28.560] and [01:42:29.560] I [01:42:30.480] spoken to people who’ve confirmed that [01:42:32.800] there is still an ongoing psionic [01:42:35.160] operation being run in the Pentagon. [01:42:37.280] Clearly. Well, the the um nominal reason [01:42:40.480] for shutting it down in 1995 was there [01:42:42.960] was only offense, there was no defense. [01:42:44.920] Why would you shut a program down where [01:42:46.880] there’s still offense and it’s still [01:42:48.600] working offense? [01:42:49.880] Makes no sense. Yeah, no, I I I just [01:42:52.720] I don’t know why people buy this, you [01:42:54.800] know? Is it because they’re so [01:42:56.600] distracted covering the Ukraine war or [01:43:01.240] but I I don’t get it. I mean, what point [01:43:03.560] did the lack of curiosity begin? I don’t [01:43:06.000] know. Well, something I’ve found [01:43:07.480] anecdotally that I wonder if this [01:43:09.880] is in accordance with with your [01:43:11.240] experience, [01:43:12.520] meeting a lot of these guys with long [01:43:14.840] government histories and serious [01:43:16.360] credentials, [01:43:17.720] they’re often more conspiratorial than [01:43:20.600] people in the public. You expect you you [01:43:23.200] know, a conspiracy theorist to be this [01:43:24.600] tin foil hat, you know, they live in [01:43:26.120] their mom’s basement or something. [01:43:27.840] They’re like they’re watching crazy [ __ ] [01:43:29.720] on the news. But no, this is these are [01:43:32.600] these people have serious credentials. [01:43:34.520] Their version of reality is way weirder [01:43:37.560] than the average person in public’s [01:43:40.240] reality. [01:43:40.880] Absolutely. I mean it it’s it’s how I [01:43:43.360] felt when I started getting into [01:43:45.480] psionics. [01:43:46.720] Because one of the first things that one [01:43:49.280] of my sources in that Georgetown pub [01:43:51.600] back in probably 2018 told me [01:43:54.480] was [01:43:55.960] it’s all about consciousness. [01:43:57.480] Yeah. [01:43:58.360] Yeah. And I had no idea what he was [01:44:00.400] talking about. [01:44:01.920] Right. [01:44:02.560] really has taken me probably 7 years to [01:44:05.480] actually begin to understand. And now [01:44:08.160] I’m realizing more and more it’s all [01:44:10.520] about consciousness. [01:44:11.640] Yeah. It really is. I agree. So much is [01:44:14.600] downstream of that. Well, uh Ross, this [01:44:17.680] has been an honor. I have one final [01:44:19.480] question before I before you before you [01:44:21.080] go. Is there anything Joe Rogan just [01:44:23.800] talked about this. Everybody talks about [01:44:26.000] this amazing bombshell thing that you [01:44:27.640] reported on. You know what I’m going to [01:44:28.960] say. [01:44:29.400] Yeah. [01:44:30.120] This UFO possibly found in [01:44:34.280] that that that they needed to build a [01:44:35.760] bunker around that was like, you know, a [01:44:38.440] mile plus long. Anything you can say [01:44:41.480] about it. [01:44:42.640] I do not resile from saying what I’ve [01:44:44.920] said previously, which is that there is [01:44:49.360] a buried [01:44:51.160] or at least built upon UFO that was too [01:44:53.960] big to move. [01:44:55.800] And that’s it. I I I part part of the [01:44:58.600] reason it’s actually [01:45:00.320] I [01:45:01.080] it’s weird just how angry people get [01:45:04.040] because I can’t reveal it. And there [01:45:05.520] seems to be this view in UAP social [01:45:08.600] commentary [01:45:09.800] that I’m obliged to reveal everything. [01:45:12.840] No. And if I don’t reveal everything, [01:45:14.720] then I’m being irresponsible and I’m not [01:45:17.600] helping the disclosure cause. [01:45:19.480] And one of the things that was steeped [01:45:21.240] into me as a journalist [01:45:23.440] I’ve been privy because people started [01:45:26.680] leaking to me things that they probably [01:45:28.520] shouldn’t have done to secrets where [01:45:32.280] including from America I should not have [01:45:34.680] them. Mhm. Mhm. And I’ve been shocked [01:45:38.640] that I’ve had these things in my hand [01:45:40.480] and I’ve gone holy hell. And in some [01:45:42.760] cases I burnt them. Wow. But the the [01:45:45.440] worst one for me was when I covered a um [01:45:49.080] I was I was made aware that Australia [01:45:51.240] was deploying special forces troops into [01:45:54.720] um the Iraq desert [01:45:56.240] Mhm. probably 3 weeks before [01:46:00.000] the war started. And a friendly special [01:46:03.480] forces operator told me that this was [01:46:05.080] happening and [01:46:06.400] I initially got really excited. [01:46:08.520] And I actually went and spoke to a an [01:46:10.520] editor about it and said look I’ve I’ve [01:46:12.280] got this story. I mean they’re deploying [01:46:13.920] SAS troops. We’re going in. You know, [01:46:15.520] we’re going to be in the western desert. [01:46:17.840] And then we kind of looked at [01:46:19.320] each other and went nah. [01:46:22.520] And and I spoke later on I did a story [01:46:24.760] with the Australian SAS about what [01:46:27.400] they’d done in the western desert. I [01:46:28.880] asked one of the guys who’d been there [01:46:31.040] if I revealed that, what would have [01:46:33.000] happened? And he said we would have been [01:46:34.040] killed. Oh my god. Well, there you go. [01:46:36.480] And and and so [01:46:37.920] in the case of the buried UFO [01:46:41.200] Mhm. I can’t reveal because if I reveal [01:46:43.840] why I say this, it would compromise it. [01:46:46.720] It’s a very sensitive place. [01:46:49.320] Mhm. That should be enough of a guide [01:46:51.400] for you. Mhm. And to [01:46:54.600] reveal the full extent of what I know [01:46:56.680] would compromise the lives of young men [01:46:58.920] and women who are doing good things for [01:47:01.080] America completely separate from the UAP [01:47:04.120] program and they’re probably oblivious [01:47:06.160] to what’s sitting downstairs. That’s uh [01:47:09.000] as valid a reason as ever. And it also, [01:47:11.400] you know, to to to argue on your behalf [01:47:13.720] against the the people that say that’s [01:47:15.480] bad for disclosure, you’re going to [01:47:17.360] torpedo your relationships if you you [01:47:19.520] know, speaking to somebody they’re never [01:47:20.880] going to speak to you again if you [01:47:22.240] reveal something that you promised not [01:47:23.720] to. So [01:47:24.160] Cuz I I actually take it as a [01:47:25.600] journalistic responsibility not to [01:47:27.520] reveal something if it’s going to [01:47:29.080] compromise the safety of your country or [01:47:31.320] my country. Absolutely. [01:47:32.760] And and you know, we are really [01:47:35.440] I lie in bed at night worried about how [01:47:37.160] dangerous things are at the moment. I [01:47:39.640] wouldn’t be surprised at all if Israel [01:47:42.640] launched a preemptive attack on Iran in [01:47:44.880] the next few weeks. [01:47:45.840] I wouldn’t either. It’s a it’s a the [01:47:47.520] world’s in a freaky place and I think I [01:47:49.960] don’t know if you [01:47:51.240] mind dialectic around the UFO issue, but [01:47:53.560] I think about that and I’m like, oh [01:47:54.760] maybe UFOs don’t matter, the world’s [01:47:56.400] going to blow up. And then I say, well, [01:47:57.720] if the world’s going to blow up, if [01:47:59.240] there were ever a time to care about [01:48:00.920] UFOs and throw a Hail Mary, it would be [01:48:03.560] now. Well, one of the things I asked [01:48:06.200] somebody very recently was, is this some [01:48:08.480] kind of super weapon that we’ve got [01:48:10.280] stashed away because I’ve heard this [01:48:12.560] rumor and it looked to be honest with [01:48:14.080] you, it’s only rumor. It’s people who [01:48:16.920] probably [01:48:18.280] wouldn’t really know for sure, but [01:48:20.640] they’ve told me second hand stuff [01:48:22.680] suggesting that the US has developed [01:48:25.320] what what are called scalar weapons. [01:48:27.360] Well, you heard the Michael Kratsios [01:48:28.760] statement. [01:48:29.120] We are capable of so much more. [01:48:32.080] Our technologies permit us to manipulate [01:48:34.440] time and space. They leave distance [01:48:36.680] annihilated. [01:48:37.600] Which you know, he’s in an official [01:48:38.720] position and he said [01:48:39.680] And I know and and Trump keeps on [01:48:41.360] hinting [01:48:42.480] that the US has a weapon, a super weapon [01:48:45.160] that they haven’t revealed yet. But [01:48:47.320] notice Putin has said exactly the same [01:48:50.600] thing. Mhm. And I have been told that [01:48:53.200] the Russians have developed [01:48:55.040] extraordinary weaponry and I wouldn’t be [01:48:57.000] surprised at all [01:48:58.520] if [01:48:59.800] one of the primary reasons for the [01:49:02.560] secrecy is because each nation thinks [01:49:04.960] that they have an advantage with scalar [01:49:06.720] weapons, but the reality is none of them [01:49:09.000] do. Right. Oh, wow. [01:49:11.400] That’s scary that there’s some subrosa [01:49:13.560] Manhattan Project 2.0 going on. [01:49:15.520] Oh, I’m sure there’s a Manhattan Project [01:49:17.120] 2.0 going Well, you have these rumors [01:49:19.520] that you had Kammler stuff in in Nazi [01:49:21.520] Germany where they were doing kind of [01:49:22.880] black world nuclear stuff. [01:49:24.080] tell you one thing. I’m sorry, we we [01:49:25.960] were trying to finish, but I’ll just [01:49:27.000] give you this little tip. [01:49:27.680] We could we talk forever, yeah. There’s [01:49:29.160] a There’s a friend of mine who speaks to [01:49:30.960] a lot of astronauts and to people who [01:49:32.600] supervised astronauts and um [01:49:35.560] one story that came up was that in the [01:49:38.400] early days of glasnost when [01:49:41.680] Russia [01:49:43.320] and America [01:49:45.120] were kind of friends again. Mhm. [01:49:47.920] Russia imparted to America that it was [01:49:52.160] in possession of a crashed craft and [01:49:55.320] there was an astronaut a known astronaut [01:49:57.600] still alive deployed to go and actually [01:49:59.880] I don’t know if he’s still alive [01:50:01.360] to go and assist in the retrieval and a [01:50:04.920] lot has changed in the last what 25 [01:50:07.920] years since the 30 years since the end [01:50:09.840] of the Cold War. [01:50:11.240] 35 years. Mhm. [01:50:12.840] And it it’s really interesting because I [01:50:14.640] suspect that there has been [01:50:16.360] collaboration in the distant past [01:50:18.760] between the Americans and the and the [01:50:20.680] Russians and that it suited each side [01:50:23.720] to keep quiet about the fact that there [01:50:26.760] is this sub rosa Manhattan Project going [01:50:29.640] on [01:50:30.400] where essentially there’s a Cold War. [01:50:32.320] There’s a battle for [01:50:34.160] possession of and development of [01:50:37.600] non-human technology and I’m in no doubt [01:50:40.160] whatsoever that that’s happening. [01:50:42.320] Well, that’s an amazing note to end on [01:50:44.040] which is let’s hope disclosure happens [01:50:46.480] and these scionic viewers are correct [01:50:50.200] before the world blows up. Me, too. Um [01:50:52.680] Ross, this is an honor, man. It has a [01:50:54.320] long time coming for me and [01:50:56.360] it’s amazing to to hear all your you [01:50:58.080] know, your vast knowledge and all the [01:50:59.400] stuff and uh pray for your continued [01:51:02.600] productivity because you are you’re [01:51:04.960] really doing the Lord’s work. Well, vice [01:51:07.360] versa, Jesse. I love your show and [01:51:10.080] there’s plenty of room there for both of [01:51:11.520] us. Awesome. All right. Thanks, Ross.

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Ross Coulthart on American Alchemy — “I Located A UFO Base In Arizona!” (Jesse Michels)

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