Dr. Eric Davis on The Good Trouble Show — Skinwalker Ranch, crash retrievals, the Wilson-Davis memo (live Q&A, Jul 2026)
Source: The Good Trouble Show with Matt Ford (YouTube), live Q&A with Dr. Eric Davis (theoretical/applied physicist; Senior Science Advisor at EarthTech International; AAWSAP DIRD author; former Aerospace Corporation researcher; the source behind the Wilson-Davis memo). Host Matt Ford, with Davis and audience questions. URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-TlUnnJduQ (uploaded 2026-07-06 per YouTube; ~3:15:40). Captured: 2026-07-04. OpenAI Whisper (whisper-1) via scripts/speech_to_text_remote.py (auto-chunked/merged); multiple voices (Ford, Davis, questioners), not diarized; merged into timestamped paragraphs. Analysis: davis-career-and-claims · aawsap-program
[0:00] These notes were never supposed to be public. In 2019, 15 pages of notes surfaced from a dead astronaut’s estate. They describe a meeting, a car, a Las Vegas parking lot, October 2002, a physicist and the admiral who once ran the Defense Intelligence Agency. The admiral went hunting for a secret, a program buried inside a defense contractor. He had the rank, the clearances, they told him he wasn’t on the list. When he pushed, the notes say the warning was blunt, back off or lose your rank. Today that physicist is live and the questions are yours. What were in those notes and are we alone? Let’s find out. For nearly 80 years, insiders of a crashed craft, craft they say were inside private defense beyond the… Today’s guest is one of the few people alive… Dr. Eric Davis is an astrophysicist…
[1:22] He wrote the Air Force’s rotation study, can barely get that word out, and he is the… Dr. Davis, how are you, sir? Good. Your audio was cutting out during your introduction. Oh, boy. Yeah, it was going in and out. Oh, okay. Well, hopefully it will come back and maybe NSA is messing with us a little bit here. Well, thank you for having me on your show. I think you’ve been trying to pull arms and legs off my body to get me to appear on your show for quite a long time and I’m happy to be here today. I am so excited to be here. We’ve spoken in person a couple of times. I think last time I saw you might have been the Soul Foundation. Does that sound familiar? Yeah. I think that was probably it. So if for some reason my audio cuts out, just ask me to repeat. I don’t know why it is, but I’m a one-man show.
[2:45] This is sort of like cable access, TV on steroids, so who knows what is going to happen. So I want to jump right into it. I am a huge fan of the Legend of Skinwalker Ranch, whatever the full name is of the show. So you were part of NIDS. The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. Yes. There you go. Okay. So you were part of NIDS. This was billionaire Robert Bigelow’s private science institute and you were what, the astrophysics research director? Am I right in that? I was the astrophysics and aerospace physics director. Okay. So this ranch was under Robert Bigelow before it came under Brandon Fugel. So were you ever personally on the ranch? As I understand it, you were. Is that right? For five of the six years I worked for NIDS, yeah.
[3:48] I was on the ranch between one and two weeks out of every month, but not by myself. I’d be with two of my co-workers or one of my co-workers and then sometimes they would get swapped out with one of Bob’s contract investigators who was always on retainer to him. Other times I’d be off the ranch for a period of time on vacation or be cycling, letting someone else take a trip cycle so I could stay home and stay in my office and actually get work done. Understood. So your time on the ranch, what did you personally witness or investigate on that ranch that was anomalous? I mean obviously you investigated a lot of stuff, but stuff that you personally encountered? A craft on the first night that we were there.
[4:46] For the very first time, Bob Bigelow took us out there. Then in November, so that was September of 1996 and November of 96, Colin Kelleher and I were out on the back porch of the double-wide manufactured home that he had installed next to the Sherman house and the Shermans were still living in it. We saw another craft and it was similar to the one that we saw in September in color, size, dimensions, and it was different in that in September it had vertically landed or descended down from the sky, landed roughly half a mile to a quarter of a mile away from where we were. The light went out, the craft was lit and its light went out and then for 30 minutes we couldn’t see any other movement or action and then at the end of that 30-minute period
[5:46] the light returned on the ground level, but it was displaced to my left quite a distance. So somehow it had moved horizontally in a 30-minute period and then it winked out and it was gone forever. We went out there the next day and couldn’t find a trace of anything. We scoured that whole property between where the house was all the way to the far west fence line adjoining the next-door neighbor and we went from, I think we were from north to south, yeah. So we went north to south and couldn’t find anything and then the one in November was a flyover. So Colin Kelher and I are out at about 2.33 a.m. in the morning and it’s cold and here comes that very same type of craft flying over the mesa or the bluff as we called it and it made a straight beeline right over the pasture, about the centroid of the pasture and then it made a perfect 90-degree turn toward our direction where the house was located with respect to where it made its turn and it kept going straight until it disappeared from view and it would have been traveling east.
[7:05] And so, yeah, and so it was really, it went north to south and then traveled east. So it was very, very interesting. No noise, no nothing, no aircraft lights. It was all dark amber light, very large. So was this an orb or was there a physical structure to it? Well, we couldn’t see because the light was very bright but it was obviously a solid object. You couldn’t see through it. But the light was an amber color, very bright, very intense. I don’t think we could make out any structure other than you couldn’t see through. You couldn’t see through. It was very opaque. And I don’t think we would want to call it an orb because the orbs that were known on the ranch, which we ourselves later saw the following year or year and a half, were small.
[8:03] They were probably human head size or basketball size, nothing bigger, nothing smaller. And those orbs that have been seen on the ranch by the Sherman family and by us were consistently basketball to human head size. Okay, okay. And they never flew up in the sky. They were always at human height, you know, above the ground level, maybe no more than six feet above the ground at the best. This thing that I reported from September-November was much larger and was up in the sky. Now, I don’t recall when it first made its appearance on its vertical descent to the ground on the far west side of the ranch in September of 1996 and the similar one that flew over the ranch in November of 1996. But in the November case, that thing was not like a satellite up in orbit or a star.
[9:07] This thing was, I would estimate, about 500 feet above ground level. That’s how low it was. Okay, okay. So this thing was big. And I’m curious your opinion. You wrote the Air Force’s teleportation study as a thing, right? Teleportation physics study, yeah. And that included using a solution of Einstein’s general theory of relativity to find an equivalent for a traversable wormhole that would resemble the Stargate like in the Kurt Russell movie and the television series. And I forget the name of the actor who was leading the series. I never got it because of work schedules and other family things. I never got to be able to see that show. I’m always busy writing Air Force reports. At that time, I was working full-time at NIDS. So I never did get to see the show.
[10:04] But I did get to see occasional parts of the episode. So I’m familiar with the show. It’s based on the movie, which is phenomenal. So this is called a flat-faced traversable wormhole in that it does not have a spherical geometry like the first traversable wormhole solution to the Einstein equations that Kip Thorne and Michael Morse had derived back in 1985. And they worked three years to do the mathematical development of that solution to find out its implications, its applications, and then they published their first paper in the American Journal of Physics in 1988 and simultaneously a paper in Physical Review D, I think it was. And that one was about using wormholes as time machines. And so this is not the spherically symmetric wormhole throat.
[11:07] This is a flat wormhole throat, like a doorway. You step through it and you go out the other side. But when you go out the other side, you’re light years away from where you stepped into it at, you know, your departure point. So I want to interrupt here. Okay, sure. So in your opinion, do you think there’s a wormhole at Skinwalker Ranch or do you think there’s a craft buried underneath? What do you think that is? The wormhole phenomenon had been seen at Skinwalker Ranch by Terry Sherman. I don’t recall now. It’s been so freaking long ago. It’s already been 30 years. This month, next month, actually, actually be 30 years next month when Bob Bigelow and I sat in his big office suite at Park House on Southeastern Avenue in Las Vegas and we had a speakerphone call with Terry Sherman where Bob had kind of like an overarching discussion with Terry of his and his family’s history with the phenomenon on the ranch,
[12:13] which finally led at the end of the conversation a discussion about Bob buying the ranch for NIST. And I had been hired before Collin Kelleher and George Onett were hired, just the month before that. Actually, all three of us got hired in the month of July, but I was the first hired. They came on board about roughly two weeks later. And then in August, Bob Bigelow and I are having on the speakerphone with Terry Sherman about all of what was going on. Bob was made aware of the ranch by his field investigator on retainer, Shelly Wadsworth up in Pioche, Nevada. And she’s very close to the Utah border. And so she sees the newspapers coming out of Salt Lake City like the Deseret News. And Zach Van Ik is one of the reporters of the Deseret News that picked up the story about the Sherman’s terrible experiences on that ranch.
[13:13] And so Shelly brought that to Bob’s attention, faxed him copies of the newspaper articles. One thing led to another. That’s how Bob got connected up to Terry Sherman was through Zach Van Ik and Shelly Wadsworth. One of the things that really blew me away when I read Skinwalkers at the Pentagon was this whole concept of a hitchhiker effect. This thing where people would experience things at the ranch as part of this investigative effort, and then they would go all the way to the East Coast to their home in Virginia, and they would have bad things sort of happen. Did you ever experience anything yourself as far as the hitchhiker effect? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it made its appearance known in my house in Las Vegas.
[14:05] I lived in a small enclave of Southeast Las Vegas, which was still in the county. It was not incorporated into the city of Las Vegas. So we were on East Tropicana Road in Mountain Vista in that neighborhood there. Yep, that phenomenon made its way into our house and created some havoc. I’ve got three kids and two girls in elementary school. My son was just a little tyke, not old enough to go to school. Then my wife is at home. She did have a job, but was at home when she needed to be. So anyway, yes, the phenomenon. In the olden, golden days, we didn’t call that hitchhiker phenomenon. It’s traditionally called poltergeist phenomenon, as in the movie. And the movie didn’t invent that name. That’s a technical name that was invented by research psychologists
[14:56] who looked into paranormal phenomenon. Paranormal is a word that Travis Taylor hates. Because he said, there’s always a physics explanation for things. And so paranormal is a terrible label. And it’s like, well, I agree with that thinking. But unfortunately, we are humans. And we attach convenient metaphorical labels to things. Like idiot over there. Or paranormal for ghost or apparitions. So poltergeist was the traditional… And that’s what you experienced in your home? Yep. And then little to my knowledge, or actually unknown to me, apparently that follows Colin Kelleher home and affected his family. And I didn’t know about it because he didn’t confide in any of us about it. He might have confided to Bob Bigelow, but I’m not aware that he did. Because even Bob Bigelow didn’t report that back to me or George Annette.
[16:01] George Annette also didn’t confide to me to say anything about whether it affected him. Now, he was married. And his daughters were grown and lived in different states. His wife was still living in Sioux Falls, Iowa, I think it is. Is that right? Sioux Falls, Iowa. And she was working there. And she was not living with him in the apartment. The permanent home was in Sioux Falls. And he just was renting an apartment in Las Vegas while he was working for Nibs. So I don’t know whether the poltergeist phenomenon or slash hitchhiker phenomenon followed him home as well. He didn’t say anything about it. I can’t speak for John Alexander. John had only been to the ranch one time that I recall. That’s not enough for the poltergeist to latch on to you. I think you need to make a repeated presence out there.
[16:58] Bob Bigelow did not make repeated presences or trips out there, I should say. Very, very often. Early in the days after he bought the ranch, yes, he’d be out there about twice in September, twice in October, once in November. And then after that, it just dropped off. We just didn’t see him at the ranch anymore. And so but let me fast forward to the future. So in the future, Nibs is out of business and Bigelow Aerospace has emerged as Bob’s number one business next to the Budget Suites of America. After the Shermans moved to the Northwest, Pacific Northwest, Gene and Richard Dietz were nearby property owners not far from where Skinwalker Ranch is. And they retired. Richard worked for Chevron, I believe. He was an oil company man.
[18:07] And he retired and we had encountered with them because they thought that they had ostrich farm. They raised ostriches on a farm. One of the ostriches got attacked and they thought that was a mutilation attempt. So we got called about it, investigated. That’s how we met Gene and Richard Dietz. And it turned out that George Onet is a world-renowned Romanian bovine and avian disease pathologist, microbiologist and veterinarian. He’s a DVM and a PhD. And he’s got tons of books and peer-reviewed journal paper published in the veterinary medicine arena. So he took a look at the ostrich’s leg and said, this is clearly a big cat attack. Big cat can mean Bobcat. We never saw mountain lions around the ranch. Terry Sherman never did either, but he said they were out there.
[19:11] Some of them would cross that badlands where the ranch is located in and make its way in. So they always worried about mountain lions, but normally they were the smaller size big cats. And that’s what had attacked the ostrich. So the point is, after Richard retired and the Shermans left, Bob needed somebody as caretakers on the ranch 24-7 to keep an eye out on things and report on any unusual phenomena. And so he recruited Richard and Gene to move into the Sherman home where they would live in retirement. And fast forward to that period, that’s when Bigelow Aerospace started deploying rotating teams of security guys to work on the ranch. They were given instrumentation by Colin Kelleher. I think he trained them on how to use the equipment and trained them on how to record the data.
[20:09] And like us back at NIDS, they would have to write it down on paper and fax it to Bob Bigelow every night or to Colin every night. So that’s what was going on back in those days. I know that the hitchhiker phenomenon affected at least two or three of the security officers. I don’t know that it affected all of them because I don’t know how many of them were in the rotation lineup. Or whether it was always the same one guy, the same two guys, same three guys. Or maybe they rotated a combination of those guys with a different group of security officers. I don’t know. I didn’t get into the weeds of that. So I do know the hitchhiker phenomenon finally affected Bob Bigelow himself. He’s out at the ranch a lot more during the OSAP.
[21:08] And he’s escorting Senator Harry Reid and Jay Stratton and Jim Likatsky and other people whose names they don’t want publicized from the intelligence community. Military intelligence actually. And they had been on the ranch just one freaking time. And they have the misfortune of poltergeist following them in their homes in Virginia. And terrible things happen to them. And that’s more than two. That’s more than two or three people. I think it is. And then they also it also finally followed Bob Bigelow home. And it really upset the balance of his family life. So I can’t guess what they were going through. But I’ve heard tidbits of it. Well, Brandon Fugel, if you’re watching, I would come to your ranch, but only for a day. That sounds like that’s the insurance policy.
[22:00] I want to circle back to the cattle mutilations because I know you guys studied that as part of NIDS. What did you determine was going on or your personal opinion as to what is going on if you can’t sort of talk about the official determination? Right. Well, Bigelow space was emerging then. I played a role in helping Bob Bigelow stand up that company by defining what sort of company it was going to be. Bob made it clear he wanted space hotel. So I put him into contact with the leading space hotel thinkers. And from there it went. So. Oh, gosh, I lost the question. So repeat your question. Yeah. So what is your opinion as far as what is behind the whole cattle mutilation phenomena as far as what you got? I don’t know why I forgot that. Yeah, it’s OK. So. So I lost my job because of the rise of Bigelow space. A lot of us did. Bob Bigelow started laying off staff in 2001 and then in 2002.
[23:09] And that’s when I lost my job with John Alexander and the second ranch manager on a second that I’ll skip that. It’s Pete Pickup who was on the staff in Utah at the ranch, but he didn’t live on the ranch. This is before Jean and Richard started living on the ranch. And Pete followed Terry Sherman, actually. So there’s the Sherman’s, then Pete Pickup and then the Dietz’s. OK, so in 2002, after after I got permanently furloughed, along with several others, I wasn’t that connected up anymore. And I don’t know what was particularly going on. But Colm Kelleher, well, see, George Annette, unfortunately, got his position laid off, eliminated in January 2001. And so we had no more veterinarian. So sometime after I got laid off, Colm Kelleher continued his investigations into cattle mutilations.
[24:13] He got in contact with experts. That had some connection to this at Los Alamos National Laboratory. And he wrote a book about it, Brain Trust. And to my surprise, because I wasn’t involved in the milieu of all that since I’m no longer on the staff. And I was at the time working as a principal investigator under contract to the Air Force Research Lab, Advanced Concepts Office at Edwards Air Force Base. But I’m still living in Vegas. I just traveled to Edwards about once or twice a month to give briefings and have meetings with my program manager there. So anyway, Colm came to the conclusion from all of his research on cattle mutilations that followed George’s termination and my termination. And came to the conclusion that he found a poorly designed horror protocols anti-livestock weapon testing operation or program that involved cattle. And this is what they did during the Cold War. This is circa like 1960, 61 thereabouts, or maybe the late 50s.
[25:24] But it was in the period of late 50s, early 60s, just by a spread of maybe three or four years. And what had happened is the biological warfare guys came up with the virus that was not meant to kill cattle. It was meant to infect them because they need to see if they can come up with a very intense vector, a viral vector that can infect animals rapidly, highly infectious. And they did not make it lethal or make the cattle sick even by mild standards. So the idea was to find out its effectiveness. Can we shoot this thing at the Soviet Union at their cattle ranches and farm their livestock ranches, I should say, and take out their primary food source by a highly infectious lethal livestock virus? So this was the precursor to that done by the United States government.
[26:21] Government, probably Department of Agriculture and Fort Detrick were entwined into that one. What he found out is that the protocols were terrible. The cattle were not contained. I think I haven’t read Collins’ book in 20 some years, so I’ve forgotten the details. But I think the cattle were mixed with cattle from private ranches that were allowed to graze on the same federal property because a lot of ranchers graze their cattle on federal properties that are open for licensed grazing use. So you can pay a fee, get a license and graze your cattle, you know, your livestock, horses, cattle, goats and sheep or whatever. So the virus got transmitted from the government cattles to the private cattles, and then it made its wildfire entrance into the U.S. beef supply.
[27:21] And Collins’ thesis is that the mutilations are a result of a need to do random, sporadic, not frequent, but sporadic killing and sampling of selected cattle across the United States at big ranches where there are a lot of cattle. And it can be done covertly and quietly by a contractor company that has access to unmarked U.S. Army Special Forces helicopters, and they’ll fly over day or night, actually. Not in the middle of the night. They’ll fly in day or night. Nobody’s around, at least from what they can see up in the air. They’ll probably have ground guys, you know, driving around, keeping an eye on people and automobile traffic. So once the coast is clear, they land, they sedate a cattle, a cow or a bull, and they mutilate it. What they’re doing is they’re taking tissues.
[28:20] The soft tissues are the places that are well known in the cattle industry, especially among veterinarians like George Ornette. They are the parts of the body that accumulate viral diseases and bacterial parasites the most compared to the rest of the body. And that would be the eyes, the ears, the lips, the udders, the rectum. And I think that’s about it. So genitals. So those are the parts that always get mutilated. There might be some stragglers where they get something in the side where the ribs are, but that’s not where the disease accumulates. Viral and bacterial diseases accumulate the most in those soft tissues, and that’s why they were always mutilated. So that’s Colum’s thesis, is that this is a group that he found out about from contacts at Los Alamos. I don’t recall if he named them in the book. He might have been able to.
[29:22] I’d have to go back and look at my book to refresh my memory on it. But that was the answer. And we also had one more piece of evidence from retired Cascade County, Montana Sheriff’s Department Captain Keith Wolverton, who investigated waves of cattle mutilations, UFO flyovers over the northern tier sack ICBM silos in Cascade County and surrounding counties, and Bigfoot sightings all kind of glommed on to one geographical region in Montana. And so his deputies in the desk would write police blotters of all called in reports from angry cattle ranchers or upset Air Force security police officers and whatnot, or farmers who see a Bigfoot running across their property not far from the front porch or back porch.
[30:27] Anyway, so he documented this for several years, wrote a book about it, Mystery Stocks, The Prairie. The book is long out of print, but it looks like it’s available on Amazon for a hefty price. And he documented it. So he produced a very big case file of all of that. They found hard evidence that the cattle that were mutilated were drugged, just like I said, but I thought they’d be drugged with the sedative. I’m probably putting the word sedative in Colin Keleher’s mouth. They might have been drugged differently, but I would have done a sedative. And I think George Annette would agree with me. So anyway, we found amphetamine speed in their blood, in their body. We found the tin foil that was used to contain and carry, you wrap it up and you’ve got powdered speed in an amphetamine. And that would be mixed in solution and put into a big cattle syringe. We also found where they drain the blood out.
[31:33] They used the equivalent, you know, when you get a blood draw, they use a phlebotomist. Phlebotomists use the big needle that goes into your vein near the bend of your elbow. Well, they do similar with cattle only. It’s not on their legs. It’s somewhere in their body where they draw blood from. But they have a much bigger needle. It’s ugly, scary looking. So they found needles like that. They found foils that were tainted with amphetamine. And not just at one location, not just in Montana, but there were locations or ranch areas in Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, Colorado, probably also New Mexico and so forth. Where these similar things were a blood pathology panel was run on what blood was left in the cattle. And they found drugs in its system. Narcotics, the type that humans use. So it’s like, what the hell are the aliens doing with speed, you know? And so that’s what the answer is. It wasn’t aliens.
[32:39] It was covert clandestine government contractors, probably biowarfare contractors, conducting this. And unfortunately, Linda Howe had gotten all that confused with the UFO explanation on the basis of one uncorroborated case where only one person, she might say differently, but I’ve read her books. I’ve talked to her many times in person. It always comes down to one witness that was never corroborated who saw a UFO at the site of cattle mutilation on her ranch. But some aspects of the story don’t hold and the story changes a little bit when you talk to that witness over time. So I’m less inclined to believe that on the basis of one case versus dozens and dozens of cattle mutilation cases where law enforcement and veterinarians who did on-site necropsies and ran histologies on the animals had found human narcotics of high concentration or high doses, I should say, in the animals, along with evidence that the narcotics were there. Like in the Cascade County case.
[33:55] So Keith Wilberton, fast forward to the early 2000s before I’m axed at NIDS, and he arrives at NIDS and says, Hey, I’d like to meet with you guys. And we already knew about him because we had talked to him on the phone. I think that would be Colin Kelleher had talked to him on the phone. Maybe even George, no, George Annette got axed in 2001, but it’s possible he talked to Keith Wilberton in 2000. I just don’t recall that level of minutia. So Keith showed up and he said, I have retired and I’m looking at a snowbird retirement home here in Vegas. He’s still living in a Montana near Billings. And when the weather gets cold there, he wants to come to Vegas for the warmer winters. And he brought with him this really big three ring notebook binder. And it is chock full of all of his UFO, Bigfoot and cattle mutilation cases, including the sealed pouches that contain that big veterinary,
[35:02] that bovine phlebotomy needle and the tin foil that the speed was stored and carried in. And so we have the evidence. So he said, you know, this stuff had reached its 17 year maximum lifespan for storage, according to county regulations. And they were due to be pulled out of the vault and destroyed because there’s a 17 year lifespan for everything that’s stored in their archival vault for the Cascade County Sheriff’s Department. So he’s already retired. He remembered that he had all that evidence there and all those reports, all of those extensive reports of interviews with UFO witnesses, Air Force security police, cattle ranchers with mutilation and cattle ranchers and farmers who saw Bigfoot. And he’s got all that in there. And so he went back and he remembered all that.
[36:00] He kept in contact with the people in the sheriff’s department administrative office, and I think they were communicating routinely. And I think he got word that, hey, your stuff is going to be destroyed pretty soon because it’s coming up on 17 years since you entered all that into the records or into storage. And so he went and he got permission from the sheriff’s department to remove that big three ring notebook binder containing all of his case files and to keep them because they’re going to be destroyed. And as far as they’re concerned, there’s no problem with just giving it away to a former captain of the department. Big deal. He wrote the book back in the mid 70s and they don’t have trouble. So he brings it to us and he gives it to us. We got it for keeps.
[36:45] And I went through that and did a statistical pattern analysis on every one of those cases. I did a pattern analysis on all the Bigfoot cases, the the ICBM UFO encounter cases and the cattle mutilation cases. It was really interesting to see the pattern. And I made bar charts and graphs of all that. And we presented that at the NED Science Advisory Board. So the sum total of columns work, getting information from Los Alamos, plus what we did at NEDS before George left NEDS unceremoniously, unfortunately. And Keith Wolverton’s evidence and all the and like I said, the sum total of NEDS evidence includes not just mutilations in Utah, but the mutilations in other states that we were able to go to.
[37:34] Or collect data from veterinarians and law enforcement in those states that they were willing to share with us. So that’s what it looks like. It’s man-made mutilations. Okay. Well, at least we know that the government treats animals ethically. So I’m really glad to hear that. By the way, I want to tell you something. There’s something you should know. And people are going to say, hey, wait a minute. Isn’t the government contractor committing a felony by killing a 2,000 pound cow or bull? And, you know, they could be taken to the market for auction and make big money for the rancher. And I would think that’d be like grand theft auto, the equivalent of grand theft auto, based on the kind of money those ranchers can get at the auction houses for cattle. And the answer is no.
[38:20] So our former chairman of the Science Advisory Board, the founding chairman, was Dr. Christopher C. Green, a.k.a. Kit Green, formerly of the CIA, Directorate of Intelligence, and later General Motors, and the number three man at General Motors. And so he kind of got lost my point. I’m sorry. So. Well, when you’re doing, you know, sure. I want to I want to move on if if if you don’t mind. So you were on American Alchemy and you talked about Corona, which is what people would more more commonly known as Roswell. Correct. It’s commonly called Roswell because the news press was given press releases from the 509th Bombardment Group stationed at the Roswell Army Airfield in Roswell, New Mexico, which is where future Apollo 14 astronaut and Navy pilot and astronautical engineer Edgar Mitchell lived when he was in high school.
[39:36] So the actual crash took place in Corona, New Mexico, on the Foster Ranch that was managed by Mack Brazel. And that ranch is about 106 miles from the city of Roswell. And you’re certain that you’re certain that this occurred. And I believe you said that there were biologics found as well. Correct. OK, biologics referred to vaccines. I don’t know who the hell started Dave Grush on this use of the word biologics when he testified before the House Committee Oversight Committee two years ago, three years ago, actually. And no, biologics is using viruses and bacteria to find vaccine cures for disease, viral disease, bacterial disease. It should be any. I like the old fashioned word dead alien bodies.
[40:28] OK, so are you are you 100 percent sure that that this this did indeed happen in your investigation and NIDS and because you were looking into crash retrievals during NIDS, correct? Starting in 98. Yeah. And I interviewed Brigadier General Arthur Exxon, who was a lieutenant colonel at the time at Wright Airfield. He was there in doing temporary duty to work on getting his master’s degree in industrial engineering. And he happened to know everybody at the RAF. You knew Colonel Blanchard. You knew Jesse Marcel, Sr. Major Marcel. You knew Walter how the I think Walter House was the press officer. Marcel was the intelligence officer and so forth and so on. So he knew these guys back in those days.
[41:21] He also knew Pappy Henderson, who was a pilot in the Air Transportation Command. And I may not have that name right. The Air Force Transport Command possibly. So, yeah, so he knew him and and he was right there when Pappy arrived with crates from from the Foster Ranch geologist field kit that didn’t have the tools in it. But it had samples filling it, filled up in it from the craft debris that was recovered from the craft. The craft was not a 100 percent debris field. It was a partial craft with some chunks of it that splintered off into debris, a hitter, an arroyo and busted up. Oh, and plus it skidded for several hundred yards. So it left debris along its skid mark until it came to a rest in an arroyo that it hit. So you got a craft that’s crumpled up, broken off and all that kind of crap. So he knew all about that.
[42:25] And how many did you hear, like how many we’ll call them alien bodies were on that craft? And do we know what they looked like? They were four and they were the greys, the guy, the little four foot guys with big heads and very diminutive bodies. Like there’s a medical word I’d want to use, but I can’t think of it. But anyway. Yeah, it’s it’s consistently the greys in that case. The one at Ciudad Acuna, Mexico, which is on the other side of the Rio Grande from Del Rio, Texas. That was in December 1950. There was a single occupant on that. And that was also a grey and that craft. And I haven’t heard any other cases that had greys or or any other type of species. It’s usually been the greys. But I haven’t been able during my work at NIDS, my work for AFRL and my work for how put up where we were both at the time at which we were both working for the OSAP under contract to Bass. I could never crack that nut.
[43:33] I could never crack the nut of alien communication with the government other than my interviews with retired President George Herbert Walker Bush in 2003 and letters exchange in 2005. So, yeah, there’s alien contact, but somebody’s got that department and they boy, they keep it hidden. Well, so during. And I’m sorry to interrupt. But but as far as like your work at NIDS, were you ever privy and you probably can’t even answer this. Were you ever privy to any classified information that would give you a clue that the Roswell did happen? Not Roswell specifically. I was given leaked classified information by someone who was an executive administrative assistant and field security officer for one of the legacy aerospace companies that no longer exist.
[44:30] It got absorbed by one of the other legacy aerospace companies after 2000 or about that period of time. And that individual revealed that Wright Patterson Air Force Base, where they had a facility at her company that employed her and they had intact craft there that they were trying to reverse engineer. And so that I knew about that was illegal information. But I didn’t have security clearances with the need to know to get that. That was leaked and that was kept very quiet until the leak of the Wilson notes in which elements of her story of that woman. That’s a woman. That individual story were included as context to provide context to the Wilson notes. It wasn’t. It was just kind of glommed on to the Wilson transcript to provide context to the crash retrievals.
[45:27] Absurd security measures to keep it hidden. OK. OK. Yeah. And I want to ask you a question. But we’re going to take a quick break. But the question is, how many alien species are there? But hold hold that answer. Just going to. You’re watching the show and you’re not subscribed to our channel. Please hit the subscribe button. We found out that YouTube is literally not recommending our show to anybody on YouTube. We had changed our sort of channel category to news and politics because we were talking about what was going on with with UAP stuff in Washington. But apparently it’s really effed up the algorithm and YouTube is literally not not promoting our show whatsoever. So when you leave a comment, when you. It sends signals to YouTube and and hopefully will help turn this thing.
[46:42] So like zero, we don’t have Peter Thiel or anybody bankrolling or paying paying the studio rent here in Los Angeles, which is not cheap. So. And if you want to help pay the bills and help us be able to bring you great shows and guests today, you can find us on Patreon at www.patreon.com forward slash the good trouble show. The link is also in the YouTube. And also super chats are open. You can do the whole super things thing. All of that goes to. All that kind of stuff. So, all right, let’s get back to Dr. Davis. Now, your Zodiac. Stuff to TRW and I understand that TRW was TRW was bought out by Northrop Grumman. So Northrop Grumman, the primary stakeholder of the UAP crash or crash retrieval program, as far as you know.
[47:48] No, there’s no word on that. Chris Mellon has a friend at Northrop Grumman who was on the merger and acquisition team that was actively engaged in buying TRW. And he told Chris and remember, I’m getting this from Chris. So he what Chris tells me is he told Chris that there was no sign of this type of program. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. What it meant is its contract likely had been terminated. The records that they had been pouring through during this acquisition period. You know, the oh, it’s the process you do when you’re buying a business and buying a home. But anyway, so due diligence. So it’s the due diligence by going through TRW’s papers, accounting books and all that showed that there was no revenue being generated by any kind of program of this nature.
[48:52] And when that happens, when they don’t. any kind of program like that, and there’s nothing being generated. It’s not in the books, and that means it’s dead. It had terminated and moved on. So for all intents and purposes, when Northrop Grumman bought TRW, it did not inherit what was going on at Wright Air Force Base, circa from the beginning of TRW until sometime before it got bought by Northrop Grumman, which was roughly 2002 period. Okay. I want to talk about OSAP, and I think most of our viewers here know what OSAP is, so I don’t want to get into a sort of heavy explanation of it. But in your opinion, was OSAP ever positioned to flush out or gain access to older legacy crash retrieval information? Okay. You’ll have to ask the question again. The first part of your question, you have a sound problem going again. Oh, sorry. It’s probably Ronald Moultrie jamming my microphone here. Was OSAP, in your opinion, ever positioned to locate, flush out, or gain access to older legacy crash retrieval information?
[50:17] No, because we did not have an SAP clearance. And specifically, what we found out is that the clearance is waived unacknowledged special access program, which is the higher category of SAP. And it goes beyond the classification that we had. The OSAP itself was cleared at TS-SCI level, sensitive compartmentalized information level. TS means top secret for those of you who don’t know that. So that was it. So Hal Puthoff and I were deputized by Jim Lukaski at the DIA Defense Warning Office 3, and we both got letters that were introductory letters we could give to people in the government or in the industry that identified us, said that we were official representatives of the DIA, and that our identification cards would show our security clearances. And that identification card was our courier card. That’s the card that’s issued to people that legally are allowed to courier classified information from one place to another
[51:22] place safely and securely. So we had courier cards, and our courier cards were valid worldwide. We had worldwide access. So no, I’m not going to get into a long story because it was only incidental to this question. We did find out from our affiliation with one of the companies in California that the senior vice president of that company had been a young engineer who got hired in 1970 right out of graduate school with his doctorate in material science, and a friend of his was also hired right out of graduate school at the same time with a PhD in mathematics. They both got hired by the program manager for the crash retrieval program at that company, and they worked together with a team of three or four others. The leader of that group that did the hiring, he was the third one, so I think there were still three other guys or two other
[52:24] guys. So they were under contract to the Central Intelligence Agency to do crash retrievals. If there was anything landing in the desert of Nevada or California, they’d literally go out themselves and retrieve stuff, but 99% of it was just space junk, and the other 1% of it was, as I was told by that senior VP, very interesting. He elaborated to how put off and I’m further with that 1% very interesting stuff that they recovered falls into the category of UAP craft, but there was other UAP craft components that were sent to them by the CIA. So they got stuff from the government customer, the CIA, and they were not a bona fide recovery team. It’s just because of the convenience of their location in California and the location of where the CIA told them to go hunt for the stuff. Douglas Goldstein, CFP®, is the director of Profile Investment Services and SIPC, Member FINRA, SIPC, Member FINRA, SIPC, Member FINRA, SIPC, Member FINRA, SIPC, Member FINRA, and I want to kind of dig a little bit deeper into that. So your tasking was to hunt down
[53:40] a letter on DIA stationary. Harry Reid tried to get you the clue, and by your own account, Jim Lekatsky knew about the program when he sent you huntings. You were being fed the wrong information by Lekatsky, and do you think Lekatsky had actually been read into the program? Okay, so Lekatsky’s published books, and then he’s made public statements in a YouTube interview video with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp. Okay, so I didn’t have a lot of contact with Lekatsky, but briefly, every now and then. It wasn’t routine, because I am one of the two science advisors. Hal was the chief science advisor, because he owned EarthTech International Incorporated, and he was the president and CEO, and he was also the director of the Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, which is the think tank for EarthTech. It’s EarthTech’s think tank. So we,
[54:50] the company, had a subcontract for the OSAP through Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies. Okay, so based on my work at NIDS, and based on what Hal Puthoff and I found out through our other interaction, non-UFO-related work on advanced R&D with the senior vice president, who was also the director of this company’s Advanced Technology Center. Well, he is over, he is sponsoring a research study on vacuum energy that we had a multi-organizational collaboration. So it was EarthTech, Cal State Long Beach, it was Mission Research, and the guy there later moved to a different company, and then Lockheed Martin Space Systems, and so that was the group of us. And so it was only by happenstance, through that affiliation, that project, that we were trying to get DARPA funding for, collectively, as a group of scientists, we find out about the senior VP, who sponsored that project internally, having something to do with the Legacy Crafts Retrieval Program in his company, not overall, just in his company. Right. I want to ask, did insiders,
[56:16] people that worked on the program, or… Hang on, let me answer the rest of your questions. Oh, sure. Okay, please. So Lekatsky has come out and provided two pieces of information that none of us heard before, and I understood from Collin Kelleher that he and Bigelow, well, I don’t know that he’s speaking for Bigelow, but it’s possible that the same is true for Bigelow, but I know Collin said he never heard those tidbit revelations from Lekatsky during the OSAP, or even within the few years after the OSAP, and Hal Puthoff and I certainly didn’t hear that information before. I met with Jim Lekatsky for a long, for a relatively long period, more than a day, at the Army Research Lab at Adelphi, Maryland in July of 2015. We were there attending an advanced energy workshop, and so he was there, I was one of the session chairs, and I gave a plenary talk on my session, which was quantum vacuum energy, and then I had experts in quantum vacuum, zero-point fluctuations, zero-point energy, which I embraced, umbrella it with quantum vacuum energy to simplify the terminology, and so Jim is there, he’s in the
[57:45] audience, he’s not presenting, he’s just in the audience. He pulled me aside, let’s see, this was like a two-day event, as I recall, so he pulled me aside one day, and it might have been a three-day event, it was, it was a three-day event, so he pulled me aside during one of those days, we had a long break, when we walked to the far end of the building, this workshop taking place in a big meeting room upstairs, so we’re on the second floor, there’s a long hallway with windows on one side of it, and then a wall on the other side with doors, big lab doors and office doors. There’s no markings on them, so we’re walking down the other end to get away from people, we’re near the restrooms, and nobody’s going in and out of the restrooms, so we’re over by there, he wanted to tell me about what’s happening with him at the DIA, he contracted leukemia and was going to take a medical leave of absence from the DIA to undergo treatment, and he didn’t
[58:50] know exactly how long he’d be gone, but if he could successfully beat it and get it into remission, he’d go back to the DIA, go back to work again, and stay until he was ready to retire, so that was the last time I saw Jim, and even then, Jim did not bring up the fact that he had gone into a UAP, whose program engineers managed to figure out how to open it up, and then the other fact that he gave to Korbel and Knapp that, if I remember, I sent that information to you, it was about triangular shaped craft, I’m going to have to refer to my notes here so I can remember the exact wording, so hang on, I think I need to expand that message a bit. Oh yes, so the military was seeing triangles, and so the OSAP was trying to figure out the physics of how to do that type of propulsion, and he was asked by Jeremy Korbel, do you think it’s already been achieved by the US government, or it hasn’t, and that’s why OSAP had a ton of value, had a lot of value, and Jim Makatsky replied, it hasn’t been achieved to its
[60:10] full extent. So to what extent did they achieve it, 25%, 50%, 75%, I don’t know, because he never told us, so Hal Puthoff and I have talked about these things, and we’re looking at each other like, huh? So, no, this isn’t disinformation, this is the DOPSR telling Jim what he can say publicly in his books, versus what he can’t say in his books, and they cleared him to say what he said, and obviously they cleared him to say what he said to Korbel and Knapp. I haven’t read his second and third books yet, so I don’t know if that thing about the triangles is even in there, I haven’t gone all the way through the first book yet either. So it’s real, Makatsky would have the eligibility for access, which guys like, remember the
[61:08] video interview involving Sammy Gerb, Hal Puthoff, Avi Loeb, and Congressman Eric Burleson, on, what was that, June 20? I think so. Yeah, something like that. So it was right after, it was right, was it, I think it was either before, it was either one day before, I think it was the night before the disclosure form, if not the night out. No, they had a bank with the night out. Anyway, so this is the thing, it’s just that I was trained and educated, well, more trained and given training, it’s routine when you’re employed as a contractor to support a NASA contract like I was at the Aerospace Corporation. So my government customer is NASA, I’m on the NASA site interacting with those in a program that I am supporting under the contract. Okay, and then I’m an employee of the company. So the company has TSSCI projects, they probably have SAP projects too. Okay, so we get routine security training, frequently, like about two or three times a year, different, not all the same thing repeated, it’s different elements of it, and we
[62:24] get it every year. So that’s at the Aerospace Corporation level, and then we have that at the NASA level. If you’ve got NASA equities, like you have a NASA contractor badge that gives you access to all the facilities at the Marshall Space Flight Center, which sits in the Redstone Arsenal, it gets me access to the Redstone Arsenal to get in and get to the NASA campus. Okay, and then also, it’s got an RFID chip that I put in the side of my NASA issued laptop, so I can access the laptop. Okay, so in return for that, I have to take all the the equivalent NASA version of all the same training I’d had at Aerospace. So I am learning everything and anything, and I’ve taken special access program, security officer training, I’ve taken counterintelligence training through another venue, and this is all hosted by the Defense Counterintelligence Security Agency for contractors and government employees that have security clearances. So I can tell you that I understand the DOPSR, I don’t remember what the
[63:32] full acronym is, but D is defense, so it’s a defense office for what, SPR. Pre-publication review. There you go. So I can tell you I know what the criteria is to delineate between that, which is super sensitive and should not be revealed in a book, magazine, newspaper, or a podcast interview, or even whispering to your grandmother before she dies. Okay. And that, and then distinguish between that information, information which is not considered to be sensitive. So that’s how come I can tell you that what, that DOPSR told Jim Lukatsky what he can talk about openly that isn’t that sensitive today. And I already have that training, so I know that when I talk about this stuff, and you’re hearing me say things, there’s a lot of people out there that see me on these podcasts saying, oh my god, Eric, or maybe they see me at the Sol Foundation symposium, and the, I didn’t make it to the disclosure form because of work, major changes
[64:42] at work, so I had to stay home. Anyway, so they hear me say these things on podcast or at these big forums, oh my god, he’s revealing classified information, why isn’t he getting arrested and charged and going to prison and all that stuff? And it’s no, it’s because I’ve been trained on the process, I know what the criteria and the guardrails are, so I know what I can say. I can say to you guys that there are a minimum of four different alien species, and they are known from the public domain and in the classified world. The credibility isn’t, the credibility of the, of that ranges on the spectrum from no credibility to high credibility. The high credibility is the classified part. And in the high credibility, not on the far end of it, but there are credible witnesses who have been corroborated by multiple other witnesses or had other means of corroborating their account of an encounter with one of these four species. So there’s some high credibility for
[65:46] for witness accounts, and there’s medium, low, and none. And there’s a minimum of four. And if you look at Bob Emenager’s book, UFOs Past, Present, and Future, published in 1974, he’s got a beautiful center section, it’s black and white, and it shows you a taxonomy of the known UFOs that the U.S. government had documentation for, or classified information on. It wasn’t just Project Blue Book, it incorporated Project Blue Book, of course, those craft, but it’s a taxonomy of all these different craft. Well, next to that is the taxonomy of all the different type of aliens that have been investigated in the reports that Blue Book took and investigated, as well as classified stuff that was released. So this stuff was released. The MacArthur Foundation and the Department of Defense were the sponsors of Bob Emenager’s two documentary television shows,
[66:51] UFOs It Has Begun, and then it got retitled, it might have been UFOs Past, Present, and Future, but I know that it got retitled to the other one, UFOs It Has Begun. I might have them backwards. But anyway, the second one, first one came out in 74, second one came out in 76. The second one, the difference is Jacques Vallee was added as one of the co-hosts, and he specifically did the segment of the show on cattle mutilations, and that’s why he was added to the show. But that was in 76. So anyway, the companion book came out in 74 to come out with the first documentary, and those are sponsored by the DoD and the MacArthur Foundation, so this is serious stuff. I want to circle back to Lekatsky. Do you think it was possible that he was a legacy program all along? No, he wouldn’t be in the legacy program. I know his job duties. He’s a ballistic missile engineer, so he wouldn’t be a fit for the legacy program. It doesn’t mean they wouldn’t
[67:59] they wouldn’t consult him on a technological basis because he has a doctorate of engineering. I have a doctorate in philosophy. I have a doctor of philosophy. There are no doctorates of physics. It’s always a PhD, but he has a doctorate of engineering based on the school he went to to earn that doctorate. They had that particular title, so he’s a doctor of engineering. It could have been here and there. They could have briefed him or consulted him without telling him that they were the legacy program or one of the actors in the legacy program, and they needed his information, and it might not have been later on. Possibly. I want to spin this up a little bit as a big possible possibility. Possibly during the OSAP when we were looking for the legacy programs, he knew already because he had Jay Stratton working with him. It’s not Jim that stood up the OSAP. It’s Jim Lekatsky and Jay Stratton. They both stood up the OSAP, and his memoir is
[69:06] finally coming out in October. He’s got an actual day of that month that that memoir is coming out. I’m hoping he’ll talk about that issue, that era, that history, and it’s not out of the question that Jim could have been briefed at a superficial level for the purpose of consultations or as a courtesy briefing. Let me tell you about a man named Jim Semivan, who all of you out there in UFO land are very familiar with from TTSA days. Jim Semivan also received a complimentary or courtesy situational awareness briefing on the crash retrieval programs, but that’s at a superficial top level. That’s at the top level. He was invited to get the more detailed technical information level briefings that would come after another time, another location, but he turned that
[70:09] invitation down because he found the top level situational awareness briefing to be pretty boring. He kind of recognized what it was about, and I think after the fact, he really recognized what they were talking about after talking to some people about it, but he did recognize what it was about. I’d say he was kind of, you know, it’s like, what? What are they talking about? So anyway, they invited him to get the full Monty, and he did not want to do the full Monty because here’s why. He works in the clandestine directorate, the directorate of operations. It might be formally known as the National Clandestine Service. I don’t know if they still use that name or not, but anyway, that’s what his job was, so he’s not a technical guy, not at that level. He would be of no use to them for them to give him that briefing
[71:03] because he wouldn’t be able to give them technical feedback on it and say, oh, I got an idea. You missed something. What about that? No, that’s not Jim. Jim’s a spy. Sure. So you don’t think it’s possible that OSAP was spun up as kind of a side quest to see just spun up as a side quest by somebody in the legacy program to see if another program could find the legacy program? I don’t know, and that’s a good question. I really don’t know, but if they did do that, that was not known to Harry Reid. Sure. I don’t know that Jay Stratton and Jim McCaskey could even volunteer that information, but it’s a possibility. I cracked TRW, and I cracked the other company. I know Sammy Gerb revealed the name of the company and even mentioned the senior VP’s name. I know I’ve actually slipped out those names at the Soul Foundation Forum in San Francisco in November 2004 when Sammy and Jack Orcutt and two other guys were interviewing me during lunch, and I got flack for that because this was a lunch interview, and they served lunch and drinks to all of us because we were in the
[72:33] middle of a very short-window lunch period between technical sessions, and I didn’t want to miss the next session that Admiral Gallaudet was leading, and I really didn’t want to miss it. I ended up missing about half of it in the end because of that interview, so I’m chucking food down the spin. You were talking about DOPSER, and DOPSER essentially giving people that have worked in classified programs the go-ahead or no-go to talk about a specific thing. You obviously were around a lot of people that had greater access to things that maybe you weren’t able to get into those compartments. Did any of those insiders ever want you to publicly validate what they couldn’t say on the record, what they couldn’t say, etc.? We had a plan just to answer that question. Hal put up, myself, Bob Bigelow, Callum Kelleher, we came up with a plan with that senior VP in that California big aerospace company, one of them, and I’m not going to name them, but you guys know who I’m talking about. Okay, so the plan was this. Their stove piping, that’s the euphemism for compartmentalization under a waived and acknowledged special access program security regime, is so
[74:00] onerous that they’ve only got roughly five people working on the program at any one time. Now, the program was actually shut down in May of 1989 for all the companies involved, not for their company. It was all of the companies involved with the contract to the CIA. CIA shut it down due to the lack of progress. I mean, these guys had contracts running since probably 1960, is what I found out, so I’ll take back the word probably. I know it was 1960 at the beginning because TRW was founded and the Aerospace Corporation was spun out of TRW, and they were both born in 1960, so that’s the earliest that they could have been involved, okay, in all this, and the same with the other company, and I’ll name it, I’ll say it, Lockheed Aircraft Company. Okay, so there’s also Hughes Aircraft Company and the Aerospace Corporation, so anyway, this goes back to the 60s, documentation in the 60s, I found out, the Douglas Aircraft Company, which named them. Okay, so the senior VP
[75:12] at this company thought that our program was unique and it was a great vehicle for his company to take their holdings, their holdings being some of the crash retrieval materials that they retained which the CIA never got back when they canceled the program in 89. This company retained some of the stuff they were supposed to return, 100% of it. It’s like, you got a box of Christmas tree ornaments under contract with us, we’re, you know, we’re the owner, we’re the CIA, we own the Christmas tree, the box of ornaments, you guys were given the box of ornaments to analyze, and when, and you didn’t do good, you didn’t do well, you couldn’t figure it out, the ornaments are too advanced, so we’re taking it back, we’re canceling the contract, and when we cancel that
[76:04] contract, you got to return the whole box filled with the ornaments that were in that box. Well, that company didn’t return probably about, maybe about 20% of the ornaments. Okay, that’s a lot, that’s a lot for the tree. Yep, so 80% of the ornaments got returned and the company quietly kept 20% on the chair, of course, that over the years, their laboratory technology, physics, and engineering would have advanced over the years such that they reach a point where they want to pull those 20% of the ornaments they kept for themselves out and put them back in the lab again and see if they can use the new laboratory techniques, new laboratory diagnostic tools, like what Gary Norland has at Stanford, any apply, any of the new applied physics
[76:59] theories that come from theoretical physics and any of the new engineering principles that come out of advanced engineering developments, and so they were doing it for that reason, they were trying to see if they could get a commercial and military advantage over our foreign adversaries on the military advantage side and commercially competitive adversaries in the US capital industry, you know, the capitalist industry system, the free enterprise system, they’ve got competitors in the aerospace, defense, intelligence industry, and you know, maybe some of this material, they might figure it out 10 years, 20 years in the future, and they got, oh, wow, we can invent a new technology that’ll bring us even more revenue than the F-35 did, that’s their mentality. But when we came to them and said, hey, you know, we’ve been working with you on vacuum energy stuff, and let’s start the exchange of information about our work on OSAP, what we’re doing, what our mission goals are, and they reached a consensus that what they could do is take the 20% of the Christmas tree ornaments that they kept, and
[78:15] initiate a contract with EarthTech. Here, Hal and I and our other staff here in Austin, Texas, and we would get that material. But EarthTech did not have the advanced diagnostic laboratories that even that company had. We have access to diagnostic tools in Austin that work for the chip fabrication companies, like Samsung is here, and Advanced Micro Devices was here, and so forth. Okay, so the idea was to give it to EarthTech, and then we turn it around, we go back to that company, and we say, hey, company XYZ, we got these weird Christmas tree ornaments, and we can’t figure these out. We don’t have the tools, but we got the money from our government contract to pay you under a contract to have the best of your best laboratory people and theory
[79:13] people to do laboratory studies on these Christmas ornaments, and we’ll sweeten the deal. Any new discoveries your teams make, your team or teams make, you could publish in the peer-reviewed technical journals, and that would be a way of outing those materials into the public domain by going through science only, not going to the newspapers, not saying, ah-ha-ha, we got alien technology, ah-ha, you’re going to have guys like Michael Shermer shitting on all of this, you know, he’s going to be giving us trouble, you know, using ad hominem attacks against us. Yeah, that’s how he rolls. He’s a long, long, yeah, long-distance, long-duration bicyclist guy, so highly qualified, believe me. Yeah, so, no, we wanted to go to science, which is Avi Loeb’s push right now with capturing UFO data or UAP data with instrumentation, advanced scientific instrumentation. Measurements and signals intelligence is what guys like me
[80:18] call it. So, that was the idea. Get this material into science when you make a discovery. If you make a discovery like this metal or this ceramic or this plastic is really unusual. It’s nothing like what we have anywhere on Earth. Nobody on Earth is even remotely close to making these or even theoretically discussing these in the technical peer-reviewed literature in their respective scientific disciplines. Nobody’s close. This is really exotic. So, this is how they would get it into the science, into the scientific community. And that’s what we said. We said, you could take it out of the classification stovepipe, get it out of the waived unacknowledged special access program, get it out of there, give it to Earth Tech under a contract. Earth Tech turns around and gives it back to you under contract. And you no longer have it under waived unacknowledged special access program because we don’t have that level of clearance. You’ve
[81:12] released it to us under TSSCI. We’re going to give it back to you under maybe a secret level or for official use only level. Maybe even not in any collateral security level. We give it back to you. You study it. You make the discoveries of what it is, what it’s about. And maybe you come up with applications. You might think of genius applications for it. You publish that in a bunch of peer reviewed technical journals in your research literature, your laboratory, you know, in this literature of material science, engineering and physics and so forth, semiconductors and things like that. And then we get that information out. Then when you go do your due diligence, which is on your job, it’s best to communicate your scientific discoveries, even if it’s in the private industry, even if that discovery is made in the private industry. If it’s not
[82:05] at that point, this is not a classified contract. We probably want to downgrade that heavily. I don’t know that we would want to do it at TS level, S level, maybe official use only, or maybe at proprietor. I think now that I think about it, something like that would be done at the corporate proprietary level between two companies. So I think that’s how that would actually happen. So we would bring we would do it at the proprietary information level. So then their scientists are going to want to go to the professional science conferences in their disciplines. And they’ll associate with their disciplines like the IEEE, the American Society for Mechanical Engineers, the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, etc. So you go and give a technical presentation on your discovery relevant to the discipline of that conference that you’re attending, then you might have a statement
[83:00] saying, which we all have to do, I had to do that for my AFRL studies, by the way, the teleportation physics study wasn’t my only study, I did five or six of them total, only one of them didn’t get published. Okay, so when you do, when you give a presentation based on a government contract, and I have, you have to say this study was funded under contract number XYZ123 with the Air Force Research Lab, for example. So in these guys, in this case of this scenario that we were designing, it would be the guys from company XYZ would then say on their presentation slide, it was also being on their technical papers, by the way, you do the same thing, you have to do the same thing in the acknowledgement section, which comes before the list of references in a technical paper, you will acknowledge that this work that you are publishing was made possible from, by the funding under contract XYZ123 with the, with DARPA, for example, DARPA Program Office X, for example. So it’s going to be on the technical
[84:10] paper that you were funded on that program, under that contract number, and it’ll be in the presentation slides at a conference. So then at the conference, now in the technical paper, you don’t say anything about UAP from an unknown origin. At the conference, you might let that slip. You might just say, Oh, by the way, you know, guess what? That’s why this is not a human origin. Right. We didn’t, we didn’t dig this up. We didn’t just make this, this was given to us from ABC, you know, so this is how we will let it gently release into the public domain through the scientific community. And that way, they have the peer review first eyes on that, what on that discovery, and that’s how you get it more acceptable. So that was the big plan. The big plan
[85:00] failed when Glenn Gaffney got in the middle of our, of that company’s negotiation between their executive vice president, the senior VP that we collaborated with during the OSAP, who Hal Puthoff and I had been working with, with other organizational teams on quantum vacuum energy stuff, research. And, and so I think I lost my train of thought again. Oh, that’s okay. When I Oh, no, I do. I do the same thing. Well, I have to say, I mean, I know, like CIA is supposed to open up doors, you know, it’s a pretty big, big thing. Yeah, there you go. And all I can say, so the, I was gonna just say the EVP and the senior VP of that company, went to Glenn Gaffney to get his permission to transmit or transfer and transport the 20% of the Christmas ornament to EarthTech, because they didn’t own it. They had to get this Glenn Gaffney’s permission, because he was the portfolio owner of all that. And when he found out that they had 20% of those
[86:12] Christmas tree ornaments in their possession, since the shutdown of the program in 89, he went berserk, said absolutely not, it’s not going to happen. You ain’t getting it. Then Harry Reid went to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, I believe it was at the time, and asked him to intercede. Panetta refused to intercede and get in the middle of that. So that was it, that killed our plan, our brilliant genius plan. Well, and I don’t know if you’ve seen the, I don’t know if you’ve seen the Steven Spielberg movie, but I, everybody’s like doing their career 2.0. And I have to say, Glenn Gaffney’s acting career, I think is off to a pretty good start. I thought he was just absolutely fantastic in the movie, even though he’s a bit of an asshole in real life, as I understand it. Now, I want to go back to the program being shut down in 89. So Gerb pushed back on this podcast. And by the way, folks, he is an excellent, excellent researcher. And the question was around this, the program being shut down, as you said, in 1989. Is that firsthand information that you know, or were you?
[87:23] First hand. It was first hand from the legacy program, senior VP at that one company. And he was not talking about his company. He was talking about all of the companies. And the problem is, Hal hit a milestone birthday last month, and he’s older than God, you know, God love him. And his memory is quite as sharp at the detailed information level. So Hal forgot, he’s forgotten. So the first hand information is that the entire legacy program was shut down in 89. But the CIA, what Hal forgot to say is that maybe Hal didn’t think he could say it, but I will say it. The CIA, I’m sorry, the legacy that that senior VP said the CIA will bring it out once every 10 years, and give new contracts to the companies. And then they will bring it and then they will receive the materials back. And they will attempt to use now we’re 10
[88:27] years into the future from the shutdown. And it may take and admit, and they may not be successful, but they get a contract, they get the materials, they work on it. And they said, we still can’t figure it out. So they put it back into cold storage again, for another 10 year period. CIA comes back says, okay, try again. So they’re going to keep doing this until the laboratory diagnostic instrumentation, physics theories, applied physics, and engineering principles catch up. And then when that next 10 year period comes up, it gets resurfaced for another look by the legacy programs, legacy companies, then they may get successful. And I think given what Lekatsky said about the triangular shaped crap, which I had never heard about, not just me, but some several of us on the offset at the contractor level, that tells me that somebody somewhere got successful. And now since the companies can’t talk to each other, it won’t be Boeing and Lockheed, it won’t be Lockheed and
[89:32] Raytheon. And it won’t be Raytheon and Northrop Grumman or some combination thereof of all that. Could be somebody else even Battelle. By the way, Battelle Memorial Institute was another one. So that’s one that Sammy didn’t think about. They are an FFRDC and they had a hand in UFO material analysis for Project Blue Book, and they had a classified report, top secret. Jacques nicknamed it the Pentacle Memo in his first volume of Forbidden Science. And unfortunately, the modern versions of that book you can get, you know, the updated newer version, they don’t have that damn memo in it. You have to go back and get the old one with the green paperback cover, and it’s got the Pentacle Memo reproduced in it. So it’s been allegedly declassified. I think it has been declassified finally. So Battelle is another one of those companies that
[90:26] was involved. I know that two of the labs at the Department of Energy, which back then was the AEC, the Atomic Energy Commission, for those of you who are very young and uninformed, poorly educated in school. The Atomic Energy Commission owned all those Manhattan Project labs, which became the National Labs. And you have Los Alamos and the Idaho National Lab. And unfortunately, Sammy named Livermore and Oak Ridge, you couldn’t be more wrong. It’s the other two. But Battelle works in with them. Battelle actually runs INL. Lockheed Martin runs Los Alamos. Yeah, so anyway, there we go. Okay, so it’s entirely possible, this program, if you want to call it the legacy program or not, has been spun up again.
[91:21] Okay, here’s the thing. The company’s got shut down, but that doesn’t mean the program offices at the CIA and the Air Force, which is their executive agent on most of this stuff. Well, on this topic and other topics that have nothing to do with UFOs and aliens. Okay, so those program offices are still in existence. They have primary compartments. They’ll have sub-compartments within the Wave Dynamic Knowledge Special Access Program regime, security regime, okay, or infrastructure, if you will. So there are compartments and sub-compartments, and they all had code names. And those can keep going using government resources. So there might be some folks out at one of the national labs running it at a low level on behalf of the government program at the Air Force or the CIA. And they might, it’s not out of the question, but they could just call back one or two of the industry companies, the defense industry companies like Battelle,
[92:27] Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and so forth. TRW is gone. Hughes is gone. That’s Raytheon now. And so forth. So you got Northrop Grumman and Raytheon replacing Hughes and TRW, et cetera. So it’s not out of the question for them to bring back one, maybe two companies and give them a contract. It’s just that you have to understand the Wave Dynamic Knowledge Special Access Program security infrastructure. It does not permit hundreds of people being cleared at any one organization. It only permits roughly a handful. So you’re going to have two or three or four government guys plus the gatekeepers. That’s another thing Sammy got wrong. He’s a young guy. He’s not 30 years. He doesn’t have 30 years of experience that I have. Didn’t work at these classified programs like I did with HAL and Column and Bigelow and the other Bigelow Advanced Space Studies staff. Jacques Vallee was on the contract. So was John Schuessler,
[93:34] who was the former co-founding member of MUFON, who later became one of the international directors. Oh, he became the international director right after Walt Andrus died. He was the founding international director of MUFON. So we were under contract and it’s just not out of the question that the legacy programs. See, we got to understand Sammy doesn’t grasp that there’s a distinction. The legacy programs, jargon, those two words refer to the aerospace defense industry. Okay. It doesn’t refer to the government offices because government program offices in intelligence and in the military or slash Department of Defense, Department of War, they get reorganized. They constantly get reorganized. You’ve got guys cycling in, cycling out. Your military personnel,
[94:35] the military leadership of these program offices cycle in on either two to four year basis. Your lower ranking officers cycle in roughly on a two year basis, very rarely four years. Some of them do, but not all of them, but it’s the top level guys who are usually your generals and admirals. Okay. But they have working with them. So you’ve got the organizational tree. So there’s the top box is the military commander and coming out, shooting out from his box is the civilian commander, the GS-15 guy. Usually at the general level, you’re going to have SCS level guys, senior executive service. In the intelligence community, it’s an SIS for senior intelligence service. And for guys like Jay Stratton, Jay moved from DIA to the office of Naval Intelligence after the OSAP or sometime around thereabouts. And he worked at the ONI. And so he couldn’t go into SIS there. Their nomenclature for the equivalent of an SIS is DISL, defense intelligence
[95:42] senior leader. So he was a one. He went from GS-15 to one, DISL one. That’s the equivalent of a one star. And then he got promoted before he retired. Sometime before he retired, he got promoted to DISL two, which is equivalent of a two star. So I have to remind you that Sammy is young. He’s green. He doesn’t have a PhD in anything or a master’s. I don’t know if he even has a bachelor’s degree. The point is he doesn’t know these distinctions. And the distinction is program offices in the government, they constantly change. If you have a defense operation, they’re going to have a general or an admiral in charge. That general and admiral is usually cycled in and cycled out every two to four years. That general or admiral leader. And then the guys cycle probably every couple of years and they move on. Okay. The CIA. Okay. Now you have the civilian guys that I mentioned earlier. They are permanent. Those guys stay on unless they make
[96:45] a decision to transfer to another military service or another program office within the service they’re working in. So those guys are more or less permanent. Okay. You have retirements. You’ve got deaths. You’ve got Ronald Reagan firing everybody. Now you have Trump firing everybody. So these guys will come and go too, but not nearly as frequent as the military leadership. That is not the legacy program. That’s why we call it the legacy program. That refers to the aerospace defense companies that had contracts with the CIA and Air Force to do UAP studies and handle the crash retrievals. Probably most likely often. Okay. There’s the government side of that. So we don’t have a name for that. Yeah. I don’t know what you would call right now. I would just stick with the compartmentalized programs. Okay. Sure. Okay. Great. And folks, we will definitely get to some
[97:48] questions. We have a hard out. with Mr. Davis and in in 40 minutes, but we will we will do our best What a Ross Coulthard recently alluded that Lou Elizondo was out of the legacy program In as far as what you know when he was at OSAP. Do you think Lou Elizondo? Okay your audio quit again, but I heard your lips, okay Yeah, Lou Elizondo was not part of the OSAP. He was kind of peripheral out there. He was part of the ATIP was the nickname for the OSAP every every classified code word will have a nickname You use the nickname to protect the code word to keep the code word from getting leaked out in the public You can leak out in a nickname and nobody’s going to know what it means So you can’t trace it to anything So the ATIP was was the nickname for OSAP then when OSAP ended Jay Stratton Picked it up ran with the nickname and renamed it a tip renamed what would have been the OSAP as the a tip and
[99:02] He was in charge, but Lou played a big supporting role in that. I think he was a portfolio manager somewhere in there I think I’m sure and certain actually that Jay is going to clarify that in his memory memoirs So he was involved with the post OSAP a tip that Jay Stratton ran and it was not funded It was on borrowed money and not much got done because there wasn’t much money to borrow So it was just an existence humming along and then Jay struck dirt when the chief of Naval Operations Came to him and said I want you to stand up The UAP task force and its mission is going to be a whole of government operation you are going to have the power to reach out to every branch of the federal government including the National Forest Service in the Department of Agriculture even and federal communications The FCC and so And the FAA so you’re going to reach out to all of them and you’re going to get them to dedicate liaison officer or two and
[100:16] Maybe Not funding Won’t be able to get funding. He didn’t get funding either. The idea was that he would be Given services in kind So the labor of the technical support people logistical support people security support people would be provided for free to his task force so because he didn’t have a budget wasn’t given any money from the Congressional appropriation or by a via some carve-out from the oh and I budget So he basically would be given and this is my understanding So they basically basically would be given services in kind to establish a whole of government operation the core group of members in the task force numbered 40 and there’s approximately 1,000 of them in the periphery on the outside, but they they supported the program through for various reasons Doing various things and I don’t have all the picture of that because I wasn’t in the middle Hal and I were The science advisors science consultants Travis Taylor of the secret of Skinwalker Ranch was J’s chief scientist and I know the names of other people that were involved
[101:34] But I’m not liberty to reveal them because they’re still in government in sensitive positions in government so anyway, I do know some of the task force members who were out in the periphery and I do know a couple of them. And so That’s that’s What that how that was laid out and I believe J is going to really lay that out Lou was in that group. I think he was not peripheral I think he was probably somewhere close if not in the 40 probably on the surface of those 40 people He provided valuable Resources to the task force. He connected J to important people Programs and he opened doors that J needed help opening where J couldn’t open them Lou was there to open them. So Oh Lou was, you know an intelligence officer then he had a counterintelligence portfolio So I can imagine now counter. Okay. I got to give a lesson to you folks There’s a difference between counterintelligence and intelligence counterintelligence has the word intelligence in it, but it is not an intelligence program or operation
[102:40] So the word counterintelligence really means law Enforcement and those guys in counterintelligence law enforcement always get always tell everybody else We’re in intelligence because that’s what they want to believe now They don’t want everybody to believe it. They want to believe so. Anyway, the intelligence operations is collecting information That’s enemy information that secret and you want to collect it analyze it process it Send it up the chain of command for for action items and that’s the distinction between those So Lou worked on both sides of that aisle, but he had a big counterintelligence portfolio. So he did have an a tip portfolio So I don’t know what it was specifically. It didn’t matter how and I had to report to him We reported to J and Lou Lou was great. Lou was fundamental. You couldn’t do without Lou. That’s my that’s my little Little jingle there. So so do you think it’s possible Lou was actually Running a counterintelligence for the legacy program and was kind of bridging things between and I say legacy
[103:46] Yeah, it’s very possible, but he couldn’t tell how or I that because we didn’t have to know for that That’s a law enforcement thing and they don’t like talking to guys like us About that kind of thing. They like to keep that, you know in the shadows. That’s what do you think? Do you think it’s possible J Stratton? Do you think it’s possible J Stratton was actually part of the legacy program? I Don’t You know, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I Know talking. I know from talking with him during the OS app and during the a tip and during his task force That I gave him enough information That he used to track down who the gatekeeper is and that’s another thing Sammy Gerb confused all of the audience in that What was that freedom of secrecy or something? I’m not sure
[104:43] On you by mentioning somebody else’s podcast I don’t know what hey, a lot of people are doing really great work. So Okay. Good. Okay, so Sammy Oh Crap, I always skip a beat memory wise and it’ll come to me. But anyway, Sammy got that wrong About Lou Lou was about J. So well, he I think he was talking about Lou too, but J Okay, so the the gatekeepers that’s where Sammy fell down Sammy was naming programs off program offices The office of this the office of that the director of this the director of that and so forth He said those are the gatekeepers. That’s what he’s implying. We’re the gatekeepers. They are not the gatekeepers They are the program offices. He got it wrong. You want to target them? Yes, absolutely, but they’re not the gatekeepers. The gatekeepers are here’s the clue. Here’s the hint hold on to your chair the counterintelligence officers So those officers are officials they have counterintelligence officials in the Air Force Office of Special Investigations They’re the criminal investigative service for the Air Force. They are also the counterintelligence service for the Air Force
[106:01] Let’s just say that they are the important gatekeepers since the Air Force is executive agent to the CIA’s UFO crash retrieval program Okay, so J found out who the gatekeepers were during the task force but Kovac it He made a an arrangement to speak to the gatekeeper Once again, that gatekeeper was a FOS I special agent in charge of Protecting wave done acknowledged special access programs in his portfolio that included all of them probably also special access programs Also, probably hidden SCI programs there are also hidden SCI programs So anyway, J found out who that was through channels. He learned that person’s office the name they made an arrangement to meet in a skiff and talk about how J can get read in and
[106:56] Kovac struck and that cancelled all of it. You couldn’t do classified work on your Laptop at home Home and they’re no longer connected to the secured intranet system supernet So he couldn’t do that work They couldn’t meet in the skiff everything was shut down during that period that guy ended up moving on during the Kovac period J Just didn’t reconnect with them for a lack of time and he’s now winding down toward retirement at the time So that’s what I wanted to point out who the gatekeepers were. I do know that when how told Answered Sammy’s question during that podcast He mentioned DHS Finding the gatekeeper and yes, that’s true That’s the DHS is security chief and his deputy those two guys took the briefing information that how Bigelow and Kelleher gave to Jane loot at the DHS to justify standing up the OSAP In DHS and it was going to be in the Directorate of Intelligence I’m sorry wrong wrong Directorate of Science and Technology. Sorry that was led by Dr. Tara O’Toole, so she led the Directorate of Science and Technology within the Department of Homeland Security Well, it was the department’s two chief
[108:18] security officers And I’m not going to name them So that guy and his deputy got all that information from us not me, but us collectively with me not Not being in the picture That was probably under that temporary SAP called Kona blue that was like the framework it was oh it was a Temporary us SAP how gave it the correct name proposed SAP. I think it was PS AP. So anyway So those two guys figured out from our data, which was house investigations my investigations and They found the gatekeeper at AFOS. I they contacted the gatekeeper and the gatekeeper confirmed that yes He is the guy Protecting the very programs. They are seeking the crash retrieval programs. So they so DHS Security found the gatekeeper at AFOS. I so I’ve given AFOS. I a bad a big hit in the head here They’re probably going to get pissed off. They’re probably going to get somebody To do a Rick Doty on me, you know, I’m like the Paul Bennewitz and they’re gonna kill my reputation and credibility They’re gonna do black bag operations. I’m heavily armed here in Texas. We have
[109:39] firearms without a license in the public Invisible and we have king of the castle. I’ll be happy to kill any of them And that and that leads me to this question Eric have have you ever been threatened or anyone tried to intimidate you We’ve heard about the retaliation that and I know I know all of this to be true because I’ve personally spoken to a bunch of these whistleblowers and they’ve gone into a great great detail as far as Retaliation that they’ve experienced. Have you Eric Davis ever? Experienced retaliation from anyone in the legacy program or elsewhere talking about this target negative Okay, and why do you think but why do you think that that well, I might be too dangerous for them Because of where I’m located and also they they’re probably well aware of Texas firearm laws But the real serious reason yeah the serious reason I think the number one reason is that I had done special work
[110:44] Under contract to the Air Force as an employee of another contractor. I won’t name him and I was in I was stationed in Tokyo and Kunsan South Korea, which is where the a fighter wing is still stationed there in South Korea on the southwest side of the peninsula Right on the edge of the Yellow Sea the eastern the eastern edge of the Yellow Sea So I had been brought I wasn’t there for military reasons. I was there for more mundane Scientific and satellite technology based reasons. I did get thrown into clandestine covert Situation concerning the presidential election in Taiwan in early 1996 and And China and North Korea were doing things to the US military on the South Korean Peninsula, and I was brought in to help Investigate and clear up or find the origin of some threat actors and actions, so The government knows that very well I wasn’t an employee of an intelligence agency not by any means Okay and so they probably know that record I have and they know what I’m capable of doing and they know that you live in and
[112:00] They know you they know that you you live in, Texas And I’m gonna ask you one last question One last question getting tongue-tied before we get get to some some viewer questions here Did any agency or contractor ever require you to sign a non-disclosure agreement? specifically tied to UAP Um When we got our security clearances for the OSAP, we had to sign the standard for standard form 312 312 that’s the secrecy NDA for the United States government for anything that has to do with classified information Secret top-secret TSSCI and SAP as well. So that’s the only NDA I signed was a government one I have never been asked to sign a corporate NDA but how how to had a OSAP subcontract through BAS so BAS was providing us our security officer and they were responsible for facilitating getting our security clearances Set up and established at the DIA with Jim Lukatsky’s Defense Warning Office 3 security officer or it might have been the whole agency security office. So
[113:18] In that case how put up would have signed some sort of NDA with with Bigelow aerospace advanced space studies he is the owner and CEO and president of earth tech would have signed that with Bigelow aerospace not me. Okay. I was I was his chief scientist and senior research physicist So I didn’t I don’t I don’t need to be signing documents for business transactions Okay, let’s get let’s get to some some audience questions folks. Anyone. That’s a that is a Super chat donor. They all get get priorities because of course We’re trying to keep the lights on here and we actually had have a very generous a super chat From a disclosure tonight. This is really an outstanding question And thank you very much for asking this Thanks, Matt and dr. Davis for a great interview question. Are you and let me preface this there are a ton of questions So as best you can try to keep your answers as short so we can try to get to everyone
[114:18] Anyway disclosure tonight asks. Are you aware of any hitchhiker incidents that resulted in the death of a family member? No, I’m not aware of any Okay. Okay Let’s see here Rob Miltrano. Thanks again for the super chat. Really really appreciate it Let’s see There’s a question here ask if he has any knowledge of if Gary Reid left his executive secretary role at AOI MSG when it Expanded and was renamed to the Pentagon bullshit factory known as arrow. I Have no knowledge of that. I wasn’t involved in the middle of that. Okay. Okay. Let’s see Just for a cat there’s a giant electromagnetic anomaly around where the South Atlantic Anomaly is and that’s around where Brazil Colaris attacks took place or any of those related. I
[115:14] Have no knowledge of that. That’s a geophysics thing and I don’t do geophysics I know about the South Atlantic normal anomaly as a lay person I I don’t study the Geophysics technical literature or read it for any reason because that’s out of my discipline I thought my professional discipline so I I can’t comment on that particular question because I just don’t know Okay, here’s another one from a good friend of mine in the show David Smethurst has Eric ever heard of US government having communication or agreements with NHI and What about China and Russia? I? Can’t speak about China and Russia because I’ve never seen intelligence on what they had in that to answer that question, but I Only have been a made aware that there was a US government communication with NH eyes
[116:08] at the Holloman Air Force Base incident of 1964 and that information was given to me by President George Herbert Walker Bush when he was long under retirement Back in 2003 in 2005 Okay, let’s see here are UFOs. This is from just a cat are UFOs UAP. Oh wait. No. Sorry I just asked that one last track here from Phoenix wizard the most plausible propulsion system behind triangle-shaped UAP Advanced human aerospace technology is it field propulsion or something non-human in your opinion? it’s going to be non-human, but You know the laws of physics are pretty darn good We still have some theories of physics that haven’t been turned into laws yet That would be Einstein’s general theory of relativity and quantum field theory those theories have predicted faster than light propulsion by way of warping space to produce a worm a Traversable wormhole and a warp drive and just to make it very short
[117:08] Traversable wormholes are not black holes. There’s no model of a black hole. That’s traversable in in that Einstein Rosen bridge picture of wormholes that is a blocked formal There’s a singularity that’ll destroy you so you don’t get go through and come out the other side So a traversable wormhole does not have a singularity and it does not have an event horizon So you can go in and go out without troubles, okay? so we’ve got that we’ve got the theory for that, but the problem is the mathematics shows that the Energy required to produce those kinds of space warps are beyond our capability So then that leaves open the question. Do we need new physics? No, it just means we haven’t Engineered we haven’t advanced our state of engineering material science the engineering behind quantum vacuum energies and so forth haven’t advanced to a
[118:06] A state where we can address that and be confident at an applied physics level that we can engineer and so It’s just too far in advance. It might actually be something different too. It might be something that’s Hiding in plain sight. We already have the physics for it, but we have it might be recent and new It comes out of quantum theory. It’s it’s already based on an existing theory of physics. That’s very successful For over a hundred years, that’d be a hundred and one years now, that’d be quantum mechanics Quantum field theory was officially it discovered in 1950 It was quantum electrodynamics was the first one for rich Richard Feynman And I think John Wheeler got the Nobel Prize in physics for so It’s just that they are so new relatively on the scale of human lifetimes that we haven’t Pushed him far enough to find new Solutions that could get us excited so I just do know that there’s now coming out of quantum theory in the way of quantum entanglement and teleportation aspects That they’re that the theoreticians are mimicking
[119:16] mimicking using quantum theory space-time curvature or gravity So that might be the alternative path instead of going through general activity We want to mimic what general activity does by you by tinkering with quantum entanglement that might solve our Stupendous energy requirement for making wormholes and warp drives and that energy negative energy, by the way Okay, so yeah, let’s let’s move on to appreciate that appreciate that answer This is from Heath Jett really appreciate the super chat also afra m83. Thanks for the super chat So Heath Jett asks you’ve mentioned that you don’t believe Bob Lazar the Bob Lazar story That you spoke to a woman supervisor that said he was just a technician at area 51
[120:01] Can you briefly briefly elaborate on that? No, that was a colleague of mine and John Alexander’s who? worked at Los Alamos and New Lazar was a Kirk Mayor employee he was hired as an hourly paid Radiation health monitor. It was this gentleman who is now in an assisted living facility He’s very old. His wife died a couple of years ago he Saw George now. He had a home in Indian Springs a mobile home because he was His part of his job was to run programs Of Los Alamos programs at area 51. So he was home in Indian Springs saw the KLS TV Broadcast of George Knapp’s interviews with Bob Lazar and his investigations in the Lazar story and he thought oh my god This guy is leaking Area 51 classified information. He’s going to be pounced on by the counterintelligence corps that lives in Las Vegas and that surrounds area 51 in and outside and
[121:07] The DOJ is going to charge him. They’re going to indict him. They’re going to nail him And that did not happen. So he he found out from being on the bay of being on the National Laboratory Who was our work forward and he found out he worked for Kirk mayor Kirk mayor is a logistical support company to Los Alamos National Lab and he a radiation health monitor is a guy that checks in and he checks out the radiation badges to Los Alamos personnel that work around radioactive materials and the same is true for some people at area 51 So he doesn’t know that they work at area 51 because people on those Janet flights to Las Vegas They don’t carry signs that say I work at area 51 and their name badges They’re probably don’t even have a name badge after if they have one or or a lanyard They probably have to take it off before they even land in Vegas that because that’ll identify Their their who they are their photograph and where they work and it won’t say area 51 on it But it’ll give something away probably. Okay, so there’s a 51 is really Air Force Test Center detachment 3 and
[122:14] Their field security officers their program security officers and our friend John Alexander and my friend Have no record of Lazar going to area 51 and his job did not have a security clearance requirement He did not qualify for security clearance because he ended up he and his wife first wife were got a home in Vegas They didn’t make their home payments home got Repossessed by the bank under foreclosure foreclosed is the word I was looking for He got involved in running a prostitution ring in Vegas because in that County That’s one of the two counties or so I don’t think it’s more than two counties in Nevada where prostitution is illegal So he got arrested state felony went to prison got convicted of that felony went to prison then After all that he’s now it’s in the upper Midwest and he’s sending Explosives and explosive paraphernalia through the US mail to customers that want to buy that stuff from him That’s a federal felony got in trouble for that and so people people with people with Foreclosures on he went on to home foreclosures multiple car
[123:27] Repossessions because he’d get a car and didn’t make the first car Sure For security clearances in that with that kind of history and record I’m just he’s not trustworthy. So a radiation health monitor. He’s paid like five dollars an hour I think he made seven by the time he got booted out of Los Alamos We got a Kirk Meyer Kirk Mayer is what an m-a-y-e-r. So mayor is where he worked and My friend Bill’s the one that knew his supervisor met her. She pulled up his personnel record and showed what? He doesn’t have a college degree of any kind Just he’s not a physicist and he works as a as a radiation health monitor and we’re paying him five bucks an hour Yeah, okay. Let’s let’s move on if you don’t mind. This is a Chris Chris Devoe. Thanks for the super chat. Dr. Davis is 1994 through 1997 Perry Kaminsky the right window to study legacy program SAP records
[124:27] OUSD ANT sapco sapak waived carve-out programs and can and contractor access control That that time period it’s a mouthful. I Don’t know. Okay. I’ve never heard of him Okay, got it. All right. Let’s see here Let’s see a great show Thank you very much for the super super chat is Lonnie Zamora legit and is it possible I could get an interview with Davis? I He’s looking for me to connect you and I’ll do that after is Lonnie Zamora Zamora legit his that’s what a landing Report UAP landing report from the 50s. What are your thoughts? Yeah, 1,000 percent legit, but the expert on that is Jacques Vallee Okay. Okay, great Let’s see here Scrolling through there are a bunch. Let’s see. This is No, I already have that one. Okay. Sorry Catch back up here
[125:29] Question. Why did the legacy UAP program get shut down in? 1989 and who told you this? Well again, I think you’re already sort of I think somebody already explained that yeah Yeah Got it got shut down because of a lack of progress in the reverse engineering programs by all the companies that were contracted to do work on that and who told me that was the senior vice president of one of those companies who was working on the Crash retrieval program after graduate school after he got his doctorate and got hired to work for that company So he worked a good chunk of his early career On the crash retrieval programs and as a senior VP in the future, which would have been during the OSAP era He still read in on The aspects of that that were still operating at the low level what was going on after the 89 Cancellation the programs were put into semi hibernation. That’s the word I would put it The legacy aerospace companies didn’t have contracts but I did say earlier in this broadcast or this interview that they would be resurrected every now and then to see if
[126:43] They had the ability to figure it out Okay, so that would be every once every 10 years according to what that senior VP told us at the OSAP And that would be how put off in myself. He might have also said that to tell her and big and Bigelow, but I didn’t know I just know how and I know because we were in the most we had the most frequent Contact with that senior VP for several years actually even after he retired so but the Government side of that is the program offices and the program offices could have closed down the subcompartments could have been Terminated compartments could have been terminated But there’s going to be a number of them that are kept going at a minimal level at the level of being in cyber hybrid semi Hibernation, they’re they’re quasi or semi hibernation state. There’s some employees there. They’re doing some mental stuff They might be working with the national labs and every once in a while They might let out a contract with one of the companies to do something Okay question from Cortez zero Jacques Vallee recently spoke on
[127:55] communication established on a continuous basis in a secure facility with NHI over 20 years ago through a Sophisticated process as he called it. I can you add to any any do you have any information to add on top of that? Where did that come from? Was that in one of the forbidden science volumes? I it must must have been he didn’t specify but yeah Okay, I just don’t remember that. I’m not disagreeing with Jacques or disputing it. I just don’t recall the details It’s been ages since I’ve read those and I don’t that doesn’t come to mind So I can’t answer that question Okay, let’s see here could some of this is from Phoenix could some of Could some UAP be interfaces rather than vehicles in the normal sense manifestations or projections from a deeper reality Negative
[128:48] They’re physical. They are definitely physical. Okay. Yeah, have you ever been in a craft or touched one? Nope, I wish I was I wish I did I wish I had same with how put off same with Bigelow and tell her and everybody else at best We all were aiming for that, um, I don’t believe I well, I don’t want to put words in Jay Stratton’s mouth Let’s wait for his memoir to come out. Maybe he’ll make a big reveal Okay. All right. We have another great question and very generous super chat from disclosure tonight a really great show BAM Matt, do you? Matt do you believe? Dr. Eric Davis is a super genius and Deserves a presidential order to remove the impedance from form 312 to deliver the truth You’re clearly a super genius. I use he’s he’s Genius not by many means if I was I’d probably be richer than Stephen Hawking was when he died Kip Thorne is a multimillionaire, by the way, so that makes them a super genius You got to be a super genius to use your physics to make millions of dollars man. So anyway, I appreciate that Thank you for whoever asked that question from Phoenix
[130:01] So So I forgot what’s the rest of her question besides that just bring the question is Do you believe dr. Eric Davis is a super genius, which clearly I do Despite maybe he may disagree with me, but I I can spot super geniuses a mile away Does he deserve a presidential order to do you deserve a presidential order to remove the impedance of form? 312 to deliver the rest of what you know That’s the question. I want to answer too And I understand it better now after you said it a second time That would be nice. Now the SF 312 allows me to talk to Congress okay, so the Disclosure Foundation broke through the black wall of the security training that has been drilled into me to about three times every year at the Aerospace Corporation and Twice every year at NASA and have blocked gone through and said you got to read yours 312 read the whole frickin thing because there’s a part of it that says you are not forbidden It is not illegal for you to go to Congress with classified information if you’re concerned about fraud waste or abuse That’s my understanding. I just can’t go to Congress just to freely give them Matter of factly just to shoot the breeze
[131:23] Classified information I’ve been read in on or been involved with no I have to have a reason and that reason is provided in the SF 312 So the SF 312 I would need a waiver for I would need President Trump to issue a directive that gives me a waiver to go outside the three to Forget the 312 it doesn’t exist and I can blab everything But for now I can talk to Congress I could give them Sensitive information now. I don’t have classified information to give them I have some I do actually I do but most of it is proprietary and and back in the OSAP era it would have been For official use only level so official only yeah, and that that no longer exists now It’s controlled unclassified information that makes it immune from FOIA, but okay, it’s a company-owned information Not government. It’s company-owned. It’s what I gave the government and since I generated it in earth tech It it FOIA can’t touch it so I can’t touch is protected by earth text intellectual property rights
[132:39] What what percentage let me ask it this way? The you know the your whole knowledge your class of your classified Well, how should put this your entire knowledge of the UAP issue? What percentage and this is including this would be classified information what percentage? And unclassified obviously what percentage do you think that you’ve? Publicly been able to speak about is it 5% of your total knowledge is it? 50% like if if if Trump were to release this how much information Could you could you put that or could you put out there would you say how much have you been able to publicly speak about? 0% classified the rest is under adopts er Allowance I wasn’t I didn’t formally talked adopts er and get a written permission No, this is what I know from my security training So what the guard adopts your guardrails allow me to say and it’s based on the proprietary information. I developed at earth tech for the OS app
[133:48] Okay, gotcha what Let’s see here. There’s only one piece of Classified information that I have not revealed and that’s still Kept quiet. I didn’t generate it as a classified information the government customer classified it and So the unclassified version remains unclassified in my possession and in the earth tech possession, but that’s where it stays Okay, got it. All right This is a great screen rain screen name a crackhead 330 did Eric Davis ever and yeah, that’s a good one Did Eric Davis ever investigate the work of Kenneth Ratford shoulders co-worker of how put off I’ve never heard of that guy Yeah, I don’t know who that is I Have no no idea. No idea. I I know I know the employees that have worked for house since 1985 all the way up until we had to shut down or tech now our tech is only Existing by name only it is still incorporated, but there’s no laboratory no employees anymore I’m house Volunteer senior science advisor now because we’ve been friends and colleagues since I got hired at nibs in July of 96 So I was his employee For 15 years, so that guy’s name has never come up never saw that guy working at earth tech Nobody by that name. We had a small staff Okay, let’s see
[135:22] Thank you. This is I can’t tell but I thank you for the super chat favorite. You ate. What is your favorite UAP case? From dr. Davis or one that you think is a hoax, but we’ll just say what is your favorite UAP case? Oh My favorite UAP case. Okay. Ah boy. I Would have to say the Roswell case is my favorite. It’s great. It’s a great example of government Tripping over itself to hide hide it in in plain sight. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, you know general Roger Ramey’s bullshit Rawin balloon targets shredded debris at the feet of major Marcel in Ramey’s office the press wasn’t allowed into the office They had to stand in the doorway to ask questions and take photos Then you got the follow-up to that to the Clinton administration. Were that Air Force Captain McAndrew issued the
[136:20] The mogul project mobile balloon explanation for the Roswell crash and then the separate second volume that invoked 1953 era crash test dummies to explain away the alien bodies that were recovered on July 8th of 1947 Okay, okay And even Colonel John Alexander had a hearty laugh and extreme puzzlement over over the government over the Air Force Tripping over itself to give that bullshit disinformation story Okay, so speaking of bullshit disinformation There’s dr. Sean Kirkpatrick who ran the Pentagon’s Arrow office the all-domain anomaly resolution office Which I prefer yeah quite often on this show to the Pentagon’s in-house bullshit factory. What are your thoughts on? dr. Sean Kirkpatrick and should representative Anna Paulina Luna and others from the UAP caucus believe what Should they should they even trust arrow at this at this point, even though it’s under new leadership under from dr. John Koslowski Okay John Koslowski used to work for J’s UAP draft task force. He was one of the really insiders. Yeah, really Yeah, so
[137:42] Interesting talk to John at length J has brought John up to speed on this topic and all that But you know John already knew it because he worked on the task force. So I can’t say Anything bad about that now because it’s under John’s leadership So things should change but I don’t know what kind of pressure John is under from his two bosses the undersecretary of defense for intelligence and the office of the director of national intelligence and as you now know We have two clowns that have been running the ODNI the first clown quit and the second one is now going to accuse everybody Forging their mortgage loan paperwork or something like that so he can fire them So we got two clowns in a row that have been running ODNI
[138:32] John could has political think this is a political job and He’s that he’s not in a political office. He’s not in a political function running a political function I I don’t know how they’re doing But I have met with some of the folks that worked with Sean who still worked there Under John and they’re great people. They’re patriotic They are very enthusiastic about the UAP topic But I think they’re going to be constrained by the mission objectives of that office and can’t go outside of it I Don’t know what they can or if they can do anything about the crash retrieval programs. I really don’t Kirkpatrick I met in person supposed to be for about an hour or so briefing in a skiff At the DIA’s Missile and Space Intelligence Center at the Redstone Arsenal when I was working for NASA there at the Redstone Arsenal on the Space Nuclear Propulsion Program that I supported from 2019 to until my job got terminated due to a contract termination in in nearly in mid 2024 so Kirkpatrick is A great and brilliant and highly decorated physicist
[139:51] Lasers was a big thing for him. So he’s a laser physicist, but he’s done other stuff in the areas of spectroscopy and Optics and I think quantum optics. So he’s done brilliant work. No doubt about it, but as the leader of Arrow, he he was a pent ultimate disinformation officer Dave Gresh had to work with him or interact with him on some intelligence operation back in 2015 and I brought this up with Dave and Dave said yeah, he had a He’s like pig pen and peanuts like you get your clothes you’re gonna smell the stink, you know Yeah, yeah dirtiness and stink around you. He said you can’t trust Kirkpatrick Kirkpatrick’s not a team player and he’s deceitful and So he lied to Congress in volume one He literally liked Congress and then he lied to the public in his public speeches about the OSAP and the people Involved with the OSAP. He made us all look like a cabal that Bigelow put together in the 90s and we’ve been Mary trotting merrily on our white horses from
[140:58] pronouncing and promoting the crash retrieval story and That’s something that a nefarious CIA analyst who’s now long retired Used to accuse us of we used to be accused by him Ronald s Pandolfi of being thieves and crooks and loons and liars were Manipulating gullible billionaires into giving us their money to continue Research on UAP when far this was when the further was the truth because they approached us The thing is they recruited us not us Manipulating them they recruited us to work for them and there’s two of them involved and And so Kirkpatrick was parroting that same language that Pandolfi was always using during the 90s 2000s and 2010s and I almost wondered whether the two slept together. So I Don’t want to I don’t want to say anything about today’s era because I don’t know what they’re doing. I’m not read into it I’m not privy to it. I I I want I think they should be allowed to do the work. They’re supposed to be doing
[142:08] I just don’t know how in-depth and thorough they’re going. I do know they’ve got to be involved with scientific instrumentation Of UAPs and get data gathering. I just don’t know how much data they’re going to be able to gather And get data gathering. I just don’t know how much money they’ve got how much they can spend beyond Their labor costs for their personnel and facility cost and security costs. I just don’t know how Successful, they’ll be there’s no reason why Luna’s task force can’t interact with arrows I think she should sure when Kirk when Kirkpatrick was in power over there or in his job as director It probably would have been best to advise her task force to carry butcher knives Machetes and hatchets with them when they go meet Kirkpatrick And and do you think I mean obviously Kirkpatrick has been caught caught lying and I have it on good information That the government has actually given him a legal waiver that will protect him from any kind of criminal prosecution for lying to Congress And it’s a very informed very informed thing But do you it seems odd? That Sean Kirkpatrick would exit arrow continue to work for the government and
[143:32] Continue to parrot this disinformation. Do you think it’s possible? He was given top cover and and when he exited they said here’s your pot of gold We’re going to give you but we need you to do a couple of things One of which is lie to the Wall Street Journal Lie to the public and to continue to sow disinformation on this topic. Do you think that this? Kirkpatrick’s continued behavior and even Tim Phillips for that matter. They could possibly be running an op No, they’re not running an op they’re encouraging Kirkpatrick to do that I say they’re encouraging him Yeah, they’re encouraging him to do that That’ll be the op on their side on the government side. But for Kirkpatrick, he’s not getting paid. He’s not getting paid for that This is this is something they’re encouraging to do so so what what’s in it for Kirkpatrick to continue to throw himself under the bus in terms of opinion, there’s got to be some kind of Some some kind of quid pro quo I would think
[144:39] No, it’s probably cognitive dissonance and Dunning-Kruger effect I know I know a few debunkers that like Michael Schirmer and Nick West I would definitely say our poster children of Dunning-Kruger, but I want to go back to arrow for just a second. So arrows two primary Contractors one was Sandcorp and arrow actually fired Sandcorp and there’s a new one called Arlo solutions They’re the ones that reached out to me asked me to apply for position of which they wanted me to have Background in information operations and deception operations and information operations But but here’s the thing both of those contractors They are known for insider threat management That is what the lion’s share and information and perception management. That is the lion’s share of what arrows two primary contractors and from what I understand the contractors are really the ones doing the work in in in the In arrow, they’re the ones really
[145:44] The muscle behind it. Do you think that it is possible and I’m going to add one at one other thing to this Do you think that it is possible that arrow as part of one of their? Undisclosed missions is to be a flypaper operation for Whistleblowers and what I’ll tack on to that is two years ago I submitted a letter to Congress that is now part of the congressional record that Revealed for the first time that that the current actor Glenn Gaffney who’s on this great Steven Spielberg movie Was on this back when he was at CIA DS&T He was actually on the arrow advisory board, which again in my letter I said the Congress’s look you’ve got this guy that is a gatekeeper And is seeing all of the the Classified testimony from whistleblowers and therefore could be a back channel. Do you think that arrow could? have a counterintelligence backchannel flypaper type operation to get stuff back into the legacy program. Information. It sounds like it based on what you said.
[146:56] I’ve never heard of Arrow’s contractors. I only knew one Arrow contractor, my former employer, because they were hired to provide some sort of office support and the people that worked there were engineers. So they’re doing some kind of support for Arrow. So given that I only knew about Arrow Space, I’ve never heard of the other two companies before. And given that they do insider threat assessments, I happen to know from my security training at Arrow Space that insider threat is a big component of counterintelligence. And that’s very interesting. So you link that with Kirkpatrick’s role and Gaffney’s role and it’s like, well, what people might know by now, I don’t know if they do, but Gaffney was actually Kirkpatrick’s mentor. Kirkpatrick did work at the CIA. Yes.
[147:50] Kirkpatrick was his boss and mentor at one time during his career. That explains everything. Holy shit. OK. OK. Well, you’re you’re here on the show. Explain. Yeah. So there you go. That’s why Volume One was filled with bullshit, because Glenn Gaffney is lurking around in the swirl of Kirkpatrick’s life. Wow. Yeah. I mean, sometimes I wonder if if Sean Kirkpatrick is a managed asset and he’s managed by Gaffney after revealing that, that that wouldn’t wouldn’t surprise me at all. Yeah. Well, Gaffney’s retired. Well, I think Gaffney’s retired, if I’m not mistaken. If not, he’s no longer in that role, but he’s going to be an advisor, a friend, a consultant. That’s easy to understand. That’s easy to imagine. So Kirkpatrick is not a gatekeeper, by the way.
[148:43] He is. He was the portfolio owner for the. What does that mean for UAP? Oh, he his office being the director of being the deputy director of the CIA for the Director of Science and Technology means it is in his house that the crash retrieval program exists. OK. And so that was his role. And so that makes him not a gatekeeper, but the portfolio owner. He owns the portfolio. His house owns that portfolio. And it might be divided among different offices, for all I know. But I don’t know how, but but that’s his role. The gatekeepers, like I said, are the counterintelligence guys, wherever they are in the government. So with with what you just said, in your personal opinion, do you think Sean Kirkpatrick, when he was testifying in front of Congress, had a full read on to the UAP issue, the past
[149:42] legacy program efforts and possibly current current reverse engineering efforts? Do you think that’s very possible? That’s very possible. We did scenario playing on what he knew or what he didn’t know. And we and our scenario role playing ended up on a large probability, a big fraction of one hundred percent that he was read in. But we weren’t certain. We couldn’t confirm that probability to make it. Yeah, definitely. A hundred percent. No, we only had a good chunk of one hundred percent that he would have had to been read in. It makes sense that he got read in or would have been read in. But we don’t have any proof of that because that was outside of our clearances are clear. OK, so along with your eligibility for for access, which is a security clearance, you
[150:31] have need to know. So it isn’t beyond our eligibility for access. It’s beyond our need to know. So it’s outside of our need to know how that relationship worked within Gaffney’s organization and where Sean played a role in it when he worked for Gaffney. But Gaffney was his career mentor and boss at one time during his long intelligence career. Oh, my God. It’s all it’s all coming together in your in your work in the classified world. When I received this this message, this DM on LinkedIn from the recruiter for Arlo Solutions who has took who took the place of Sandcorp when when when they were fired. When it’s when the job is saying that that they want me that they want my desired qualifications to be information operations, information activities and I’m sorry, information operations, information activities and deception operations.
[151:37] Would that be a red flag like like Arrow is trying to hire me to to be a puppet? You know, I’ve had people tell me, yes, yeah, deception is a part of perception management, which is a role of counterintelligence. So it’s like, whoa, Joel Sheckman at The Wall Street Journal worked for another bullshit artist, a front organization, you know, PR information organization. So that’s what he did was perception management. That’s part of counterintelligence. Yeah, that’s part of official disinformation. So so it’s it’s entirely possible that that was indeed what they were wanting me to do. Yeah. It’s possible. Yeah. I can’t imagine they’re going to have you do that with Chinese intelligence information.
[152:28] That’s not what you would be doing. That’s what the intelligence analyst does. They take Chinese intelligence, parse it down into its pieces, figure out who needs what of that, figure out what the whole picture is, figure out what the little pieces of the picture are and all that. But that doesn’t they’re not looking for counterintelligence. And China’s side is to prevent their classified programs from leaking to us or being stolen by us. OK, they’re there to prevent that. But for you to work for counterintelligence operation that’s involved in UAP in a UAP office, that’s very interesting. It’s very interesting. It sounds like perception management, counterintelligence. And the thing that was interesting was it was the the direct message that I got from
[153:18] Arrows, Arrows prime contractor. It didn’t have any of that in there. You know, the guy reached out and said, hey, we think that you might be a good fit for this position. Of course, I don’t hold a security clearance. So right away, I knew that wasn’t going to happen. But then when I, you know, when I went and looked at the link for the job position they wanted me to apply for, that’s when it said information operations and information activities and deception, deception operations. And again, this is under Dr. John Koslowski’s leadership, which to me says that members of Congress, and I know Congresswoman Anna Paulina, you watch this show as well as many other members of Congress and their staffers. I don’t think that you can trust a goddamn thing, pardon my French, that Arrow puts out
[154:03] there personally. Let me just interject briefly that there’s a small possibility that came to mind just now that maybe they want you to do that type of work to figure out who’s doing that disinformation against the United States government, you know. So that would be an intelligence gathering thing. But maybe they want the perception management, you know, disinformation side to a threat and now, you know, threat, insider threat assessment, to look at that from the counterintelligence side involving a foreign actor. But now that I think about it even more, I’m thinking that’s, that doesn’t line well. That’s still, yeah. That’s very curious, but don’t, I don’t want to get all upset with John because, you know, there’s going to be memos, phone calls, and agreements going on in the background and
[155:03] there’s going to be a lot of missing information. We cannot connect together and, you know, dots very close together versus the dots that are wide apart like we’re talking about right now. We need the dots that are closer together. So we don’t have that and I don’t know why that’s necessary for Arrow. It’s not a scientific endeavor and as a matter of fact, that goes against science to do that kind of thing. Well, and it certainly would be in alignment with Sean Kirkpatrick’s behavior as the leader of Arrow. I mean, clearly they were a massive disinformation arm and pushing propaganda on the American public and the world. I want to end this interview with this science advisory panel. We had Dr. Avi Loeb on the show, I think it was a week and a half ago, folks.
[155:59] It was a really great interview. I encourage everyone to watch it. Now there are quite a few people on this panel that have been on this show that I have absolutely tremendous, tremendous respect for. Rear Admiral, retired Rear Admiral Tim Galliadetis comes to mind and then also Dr. Gary Nolan, who I would count as a personal friend and just absolutely one of… Peter Scafish. Yeah, Peter Scafish. All of these folks that are Dr. Avi Loeb himself, a wonderful human being. And then you have Michael Shermer, who has this entire 501C3 with, I think he had like 800,000 in revenue or a million in revenue. Anyone can go look up on the IRS Form 990 site. Just look up for Skeptic Society. This is Michael Shermer’s organization. Of course, Michael Shermer went on after he was, actually it may have been right before
[157:05] or shortly after he was named to this panel. He goes on X, puts up a photo of David Grush, whistleblower David Grush, and compares him to the Heaven’s Gate cult leader. Now my personal opinion is that Michael Shermer should go take a hike. He has, he is unqualified. He is unqualified ethically. He is unqualified professionally. He should not be on this panel. What is your personal opinion about Dr. Michael Shermer and what would be your message to Dr. Avi Loeb? I’ve got two opinions. One, Avi is absolutely right in that if you have a hardcore skeptic on that council and you can use the data, the UAP measurement data of something that can be identified as unknown. It is not human made. Not by any chance, not by any means. It is not a human made data that his council has collected data on or gathered
[158:10] from whoever feeds that data to their council. Whether it be a government agency or private organizations like UAPX and Beatrice Villarreal and others. And I apologize for the other, the Tedesco brothers. If I didn’t, I hope I didn’t mispronounce their name. So if you can get the data and the data is clearly irrefutably anomalous and is of a craft of some type that cannot be identified as human made. And if you can use that data to convince a guy like Michael Shermer, then Michael Shermer should psychologically react by blowing the clarion call to say UAPs are real. They are here. They are visiting us. So if you can convince a guy like Michael Shermer that the data proves that there are UAP that are non-human technologies, non-human entities of whatever form they take are real,
[159:11] then basically you put down the skeptics arguments. You put down Penn and Gillette. You put down Shermer. You put down all the other skeptics people that I don’t, you know, the older guys have all died off and moved off. So we have a new generation, I’m sure. So that’s the gold standard. I agree with it. But Michael Shermer himself, he’s ethically compromised. And I think I know from reading the skeptics bloggers from the 2000s, they have complaints about his moral problems. And I won’t discuss that on this show. But you already know what that is. So he has some moral issues. Who knows? Maybe he’s reformed now. Maybe he’s a better guy. That’s great. But unfortunately, he has behaviors exhibited
[160:04] that were very unprofessional and lacked morals. Very unethical. So it’s just not the best choice. We can set that aside. Let’s go ahead and set that aside and forget I even said it. Let’s just look at the fact that his personality is highly biased against some of this phenomenon, the various things they call pseudoscience, especially UAP. So he exhibits cognitive dissonance very strongly. And he’s demonstrating the reason why Alan Lightman, one of my former astrophysics professors who did a sabbatical at my university, I took an astrophysics course from him in graduate school. He wrote an article with a colleague that was published in Science magazine in 1993, Where Do Anomalies Begin? And it talked about Galileo’s travails. It talked about meteors. It talked about how we had these anomalous phenomena that retroactively, retrospectively were realized to be new phenomenon that were not predicted
[161:22] by prevailing accepted scientific theories. Therefore, tossing those theories aside either to have to be rewritten to incorporate this new data, or they couldn’t be rewritten and they have to be replaced altogether. So that’s what the gist of When Do Anomalies Begin? Is that the words cognitive dissonance appear in that article. Yeah, and let me go ahead. Shermer is not a scientist. That’s the problem. He’s a soft scientist, a STEM scientist, science, technology, engineering, mathematics. We live by the scientific method. Shermer does not. He doesn’t have a scientific method. Well, he might be able to adapt it for the science he practices. But the problem is the word cognitive dissonance applies to him and Thomas Kuhn’s book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions,
[162:18] is the feature and focus of that article. In that you get data that contradicts your worldview of science and you’re going to suffer cognitive dissonance. And then when more data comes in, that keeps contradicting your worldview. And more of your fellow scientists are upset and they’re realizing, you know what, this data is solid. That means our worldview sucks. It’s wrong. We’ve got to redo it from scratch. That’s where Shermer can’t go. It seems like he’s psychologically predisposed. It’s like he’s got some psychosis that prevents him from going there. That’s why he’s not a valid pick for the board, the council. Avi has many, many, many other choices of excellent, unbiased scientists in many disciplines who don’t suffer from cognitive dissonance. And he could do a simple test to find that out by interviewing these people. Somehow, Michael Shermer passed the test, but here’s what we know. Avi and Shermer both sit on the editorial board of Scientific American.
[163:29] I don’t know if that’s true today, but they have been for many, many years. Yes. Wow. They both are or were on the editorial board of Scientific American, so obviously they’re going to come across each other. You know, Shermer writes some stuff that I agree with, actually. But on UAP, oh, he’s way off the beaten path. On psychic stuff like remote viewing and psychokinesis, he’s way off the beaten path because there’s already laboratory data with statistics. In other words, Avi’s gold standard has been met. And it turns out, Hal put off the one that brought psychic research into a modern laboratory science at Stanford Research Institute. Yeah, why isn’t he on it? Yeah. Okay, this is what cognitive dissonance also means. It means he refuses to read and look at the data and think about it.
[164:21] That’s where the cognitive dissonance is blinding him psychologically. He’s got a barrier he can’t get across because he refuses to read the published scientific literature, which there is in Nature magazine and in the IEEE journals and books on the remote viewing program, including that it passed the CIA and defense science review boards repeatedly. Hal was able to take the most staunchest science board members who were skeptical. They come and audit the remote viewing program at Stanford, and they said, this is all bullshit. I want you to run a session for me. So Hal ran a session, and the skeptical scientist said, oh, I can figure out a magic trick that can explain that. And Hal would prove to him he was wrong. And these are double blind studies, by the way,
[165:10] for which Hal would not know what the target is. Okay, so then the key to persuading them is not to let somebody else be the remote viewer, not let an established military remote viewer or an SRI remote viewer do the session. It’s Hal briefly trains the skeptic on how to do the remote viewing, and every time that a skeptic came in to audit the program because they were skeptical and they were hoping, they were advising to cancel the budget for that program, Hal would teach him how to remote view. He’d have a guy out there. Somebody in the office would get some guy. Hal would know who he was, would go out in some random location, find a target, sit there, look at it, and then Hal would just sit there. And after the training, the skeptic would start getting mental images
[166:04] and start scribbling it down, verbally describing it. And boom, every time Hal ran different sessions with the skeptic, he was remote viewing accurately where the guy who Hal didn’t know or the scientist didn’t know, some random guy picked by the office to go out to some target. It might have been a donut shop with a giant donut on top of the building, that kind of thing. So Hal was able to persuade those skeptics. Well, we need to do something equivalent for UAP now. My ultimate evidence to persuade them is to get them into a crash retrieval program, have them touch a craft and go in it, and maybe even have them see evidence of the recovered NHI bodies. And that will be an ontological shock that will shake them up. And here’s the thing. Can we trust Michael Shermer whose entire livelihood income is based on book sales and 20,000 to 30,000, that was the other thing, he posted about saying that all these UAP whistleblowers are grifting and available for doing talks, paid talks, but yet Michael Shermer, if you go and you look at these booking services,
[167:35] is charging 20 to 30,000 dollars to go talk. So can you trust Michael Shermer to be an honest broker on this committee when his entire bank account is reliant on debunking this stuff? Yeah, I went to my first UFO conference and only got a $1,500 honorarium with travel expenses paid for the first time. Yeah, it was at the end of May this year and that’s the first time I ever went. I got a full-time job. I make a good amount of money. I’m in the upper middle class, way up there, and I don’t need to grift. I’m not looking to write a book, although people are pressing me and pressing me to write a book. I probably have less information than Lekatsky and Stratton have, and Lou’s book, Eminent, too. So no, I’m not looking to make money on it.
[168:35] As a matter of fact, I don’t make money on it. I just was given a courtesy honorarium. It was $1,500 plus the travel expenses, and that’s the first one I’ve attended since 2013. The 2013 one was the International Mufon Symposium that year, and the previous time I went and got it, and they gave me an honorarium. No, they did not. They did not pay me even an honorarium, but they paid my travel expenses. But the last one I attended, and the first one was the last one previous to that, was in the 2001 International Mufon Symposium in Irvine, California. I did not collect an honorarium, but they covered my travel expenses, and that’s it. So I don’t do the UFO lecture circuit. I don’t have the time. I’m training PhDs between Baylor University and the State University of New York at Albany, a.k.a. University of Albany, where UAPX is located in the physics department
[169:39] under professors Kevin Knuth, Matt Sudeikis, and I’ll leave the third professor’s name out. She doesn’t want a high profile. So anyway, that’s how I feel about it. I’m not in this to make the money. I was actually a paid professional ufologist, a UFO field investigator using forensic field investigation techniques at NIDS for six years. And then I carried that forward when I worked for AFRL. My program director was heavy into this stuff as well, this topic. So he had me keep that going. Matter of fact, the guy I replaced who died from glioblastoma was his longtime contractor, Dr. Robert L. Forward at Hughes Research Labs in Malibu. And Robert Forward did a UFO investigation for one of his study reports for my program manager. And that was circa mid 80s. So my program manager was into the topic because he himself had his own
[170:45] inside government information. He’s running the Advanced Concepts Office at AFRL Edwards Air Force Base. And he is there as a government service employee, research scientist, program manager, actually. And so he’s got his security clearances and he knows what he’s been read in on stuff. And there’s the rumor mill that kind of, you know, you whisper in the ear of your co-worker and he’s heard stuff. And he’s an incredible, incredible people he talked to at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. There’s an Advanced Concepts Office at AFRL there too. So this had been going on and then worked for Hal Putup. We, again, like Bigelow, we were funded by a very wealthy benefactor who was interested in the topic. But that benefactor had no role in the OSAP because that was a DIA contract that went to Bigelow Aerospace
[171:44] Advanced Space Studies and that, and they let out subcontracts to several of us. And the reason why, well, there were several of us from the NIBS era, makes sense. We were either staff or members of the Science Advisory Board, but it wasn’t all of us. It was just a very small number of us. The rest of the people at Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies were retired Navy and Marine Corps fighter pilots and data management analysis staff. The people who work with information technology, those guys, those are all guys that had nothing to do with NIBS. They had nothing to do with Skinwalker Ranch. They just got hired to run their job duties to meet the mission goals of the OSAP contract that BAASS had.
[172:30] So, Shermer, Shermer, I don’t want to upset people by using a series of foul words. Okay, I do it all the time here. Yeah, we got to speak politely. He’s the wrong candidate. He’s the wrong guy nominated. Obby should look for somebody else. If Obby wants me to give him a list of prospective replacements, I’ll be happy to. And I will not necessarily go with anybody in physics. Although I have physics people I can immediately pick, like an American physicist at CERN who would be a great skeptic. I think he’s too biased, but he’s now Michael Shermer. He’s ethical. He’s a moral guy. He’s straight arrow, but he’s a little twisted. That’s what people say about me. So anyway, there are people in psychology, psychiatry, other medical fields, material sciences, other fields of engineering, physics, mathematics, astronomy, astrophysics. There are people there that have not made contact into it. They may have read popular literature about UFOs, but they don’t.
[173:37] This isn’t their thing. They don’t ride the horse of UAP. So they would be great for Obby. He needs to have somebody who’s removed from the UAP field, in my opinion. That way they won’t suffer from some form of cognitive dissonance in the pro or con direction. He wants them unbiased. Yeah, yeah, and not charging $20,000 and $30,000 to give talks, some of which are certainly about debunking UFOs. Well, Eric, I have to say this has been one of the most enjoyable interviews I have done in quite some time. We’ve blown way past your heart out at 3.30 Pacific, and unfortunately we won’t be able to get to all of the questions. But I am just truly, truly grateful for your candor and the generosity of your time.
[174:33] I know everyone watching this show certainly is, and we appreciate everything that you’ve done on this topic. Thank you very much, and I was very happy to be here, and I’m very happy that I’m in an employment status that allows me more freedom than I had at the Aerospace Corporation, which banned me. The Corporate Communications Office banned me from making these kinds of appearances. I couldn’t even go do scientific conferences or talk to the press about the work of my PhD students at Baylor on wormholes and warp drives or even time machines. Couldn’t do it. That’s all general relativity with a mixture of quantum field theory. They wouldn’t let me do that. They had a problem with a famous celebrity scientist getting hired by the company, and that individual brought a lot of the political and public controversy. His work engendered into the company, and they had to manage that somehow.
[175:27] So they put a hard ban on me, and I work for an employer who actually is very open-minded and involved in UAPs in the background. Whoever that employer is, I will not name him. Yeah, I have a guess. Well, Eric, thank you. Thank you so much. This is just, I mean, bombshell after bombshell with this interview. So this has really, really been great. Thank you for your time. Thank you very much. Have a great day. Bye. All right. Eric, scrolling through the prompter. Yeah, I just want to wrap up a couple of things. Firstly, apologies for not being able to get to all of the questions. In the history of the show, we have never had this many live viewers. This is by far the largest, and the number of questions was just insane, and we just weren’t able to get to it.
[176:22] Eric, Dr. Davis said that he could stay with us until 3.30 and then had to leave, and we’re almost at 4 o’clock. But I wanted to wrap this up by talking about two things briefly. This science advisory panel of which professional debunker Michael Shermer is on. In my personal opinion, you cannot trust a guy whose livelihood is based on debunking this stuff. $20,000 to $30,000 speaker fees. Dr. Gary Nolan, who has done more for the world, for humankind, for the stuff that we will never fully understand, the things that he has done to better the human condition. Dr. Gary Nolan does not charge a dime to speak at any convention or anything. And this man, Michael Shermer, who is a bicyclist, and I guess is some kind of scientist.
[177:30] I don’t know about that. But here’s this guy charging $20,000 to $30,000 to show up and debunk UFOs and other things, and then has the gall to post, and this was prior to I think either the last or the previous UAP hearing, has the gall to call the people that were about to testify in front of Congress, these whistleblowers, to call them grifters, saying that they will likely be available for book deals and television shows and speaking engagements. And yet Michael Shermer, at the height of hypocrisy, goes and charges $20,000 to $30,000 to speak. Now, I do not fault anyone for making a living at this. Hopefully one day I’ll make a living at this because I love it. But I don’t fault Shermer for charging for speaker engagements. Everybody’s got to pay the bills. But to go and accuse whistleblowers, government whistleblowers, who have done way more for this country than Michael Shermer will ever hold a candle to, whistleblowers that have given everything, and I can tell you one main whistleblower who I’ve understood the amount of money that this individual has lost to put this out
[179:06] and the amount of harassment and intimidation by security contractors working for Northrop Grumman and others. These guys have given it all to testify in front of Congress under oath, under oath. They’ve done all of this in the name of doing the right thing for the country, for putting country before self. But I don’t think that Michael Shermer is a person that understands what it is like to sacrifice and put country before self. I don’t think he has an absolute clue. And I recently shared a very personal story of what my mother shared with me six months prior to her passing. She finally told me she had a UAP encounter with beings and everything, and she kept that to herself her entire adult life, not telling anyone, her parents, her siblings, her husband, myself, and my brother until six months prior.
[180:21] And the reason that she didn’t do that is because she was worried about what people would think about her. She was worried that people would think that she was crazy. She told me that. I will never forget it. Sitting in her wheelchair, God bless her, six months prior to passing. And it is because of people like Michael Shermer, because of people like Mick West, because of people like Neil deGrasse Tyson, these charlatans, these charlatans that do untold psychological damage to the mental health of people that have experienced this UAP stuff. Either abductions or whatever. So Michael Shermer is not qualified to be on this panel. He should be fired from this panel. He should be ejected from this panel because you cannot trust Michael Shermer to be an honest broker.
[181:18] And I love Dr. Avilobe. Dr. Loeb has been on this show I think five different times. I have a feeling that Dr. Loeb has no idea, no idea as to the true history of Michael Shermer, things that he has posted and other things. And I would say this to members of Congress. I know Anna Paulina Luna watches this show and other members of Congress and quite a bit of staffers on Capitol Hill. This is a politically untenable situation for the Trump administration if you have this guy on your panel. It will backfire on President Trump. It will backfire on this administration and it will backfire on Republican members of Congress that are supporting this. And I’ll wrap this up. Final thing I promise here.
[182:14] And this is for Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna, Representative Eric Burleson, Representative Tim Burchette. Do not trust Arrow. You cannot trust Arrow. John Koslowski may be the nicest guy. He may be trying to do the best he can. But at the end of the day, Arrow was designed to lie to members of Congress like you. They are part of this whole information and perception management operation. When Arrow’s prime contractors, and this is again for members of Congress and their staffers watching this show. When Arrow’s prime contractor, Sandcorp, and Arlo Solutions, who is the current prime, when their entire background is information and perception management and insider threat, that tells you folks in Congress that that is what Arrow is designed to do.
[183:22] It is designed to be a honey trap for whistleblowers. There is no other explanation why you would have the former director of the Directorate of Science and Technology, CIA DS&T, who oversees the Office of Global Access. There is no other explanation why you would have Glenn Gaffney sitting on this secret Arrow advisory board. Then to funnel privileged information back to the CIA, back to the legacy program. You cannot trust Arrow, full stop. I can tell you for a fact, there was one senator that was on a texting basis with Sean. And Sean had this senator so snowed over that I believe that it affected this senator’s decision making thing. I can tell you as well, a former member of the intelligence community who dealt with the UAP issue as part of their portfolio was in a meeting in a classified briefing, a large, very largely attended classified briefing,
[184:40] talking about UAP and the legacy program and all of that. Sean was in that meeting. I also told you earlier that Sean has some kind of legal waiver that will protect him from criminal charges, I’m sure civil charges as well. So members of Congress, when you look at the totality of Arrow, of what it is in a macro view has done, and again I know that there are good people in Arrow, scientists that are trying to do the right thing, but when you have Tim Phillips and Sean Kirkpatrick going and messaging on a continual basis, clearly with top cover, messaging that the public and lawmakers cannot trust whistleblowers. When you have the former director and deputy director of Arrow messaging that whistleblowers are grifters, that David Grush is a grifter, that these other people are grifters, when they are out there on podcasts saying that, folks in Congress, you have to understand,
[185:56] this is what Arrow was set up to do. It is set up to put people out into the ether, such as Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, to feed Joel Shechtman, who worked for a CIA cutout, the International Republican League. Joel Shechtman, who worked for IRL, who is one of the Wall Street Journal authors. Aruna Viswanatha, whose sister is one of the key legal counsels for Northrop Grumman. You cannot make this shit up. So members of Congress, you cannot, cannot trust the intentions of Arrow whatsoever. It has nothing to do with Dr. John Koslowski. Although we just found out that Dr. John Koslowski, his mentor was, I guess, Glenn Gaffney. I’m sorry, that was Sean Kirkpatrick’s mentor was Glenn Gaffney. And we found out that John Koslowski worked on the UAP task force. That was news to me.
[187:02] So bottom line, members of Congress, you cannot trust a goddamn thing Arrow is going to tell you about UAP. Sure, they’re going to sprinkle in a few videos that are going to have some truth to it. But overall, when you’ve got the two former heads of Arrow out on the podcast circuit and being the primary sources for the Wall Street Journal, it tells you right there, right there, that these two intelligence professionals, and let me back up a bit, Tim Phillips, the former deputy director of Arrow, said on a podcast that the government is in possession of craft the size of Klingon battle cruisers that look like UAP. So you’re telling me that a career intelligence professional is going to reveal on a freaking podcast classified information,
[188:00] reveal a special access program? I can tell you right now that did not happen without top cover. So folks in Congress, when you are asking yourself, should you trust Arrow? You have to look at, from the macro view, what Arrow has done as a disinformation node, as a information and perception management node with its former directors, who I’m certain were given some kind of sweetheart deal, some pot of gold or something. I don’t know what the hell it would be, but whatever it is, these guys are obviously out there as part of a coordinated communication, a coordinated comms plan. So you cannot trust Arrow. And the Trump administration should not trust Arrow. Absolutely, full stop. I’m sure Pete Hegseth is being sold a bill of goods that amounts to a wheelbarrow full of bullshit, because that is exactly what Arrow is.
[189:07] It is the Pentagon and IC’s in-house bullshit factory that is meant to perform information and perception management operations. I mean, they tried to hire me, and they wanted me to have a background in information operations, information activities, and deception activities. As you heard Dr. Eric Davis talk about, that is extremely suspect. And I can tell you, members of Congress, I spoke to one special access program manager who specifically told me that any DOD job that is posted asking for somebody with a background in information operations, information activities, and deception activities, is that Pentagon program manager told me specifically, because that program manager has run SAPs where they needed a disinformation leg to the SAP.
[190:08] They told me specifically that that job posting is looking for somebody that will parrot propaganda. So members of Congress, Anna Paulina Luna, Tim Burchette, Eric Burleson, ask yourself why Arrow, under the leadership of Dr. John Koslowski, would ask me to work for Arrow in a paid position putting out disinformation. And I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, the freaking government legacy program or whatever could offer me millions of dollars. They can fuck right off because I’m not going to be out there spewing their bullshit and their lies to the American public. It’s not going to happen. And it is high time members of Congress haul in Dr. John Koslowski, Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, and Tim Phillips and put them under oath under the threat of perjury,
[191:06] although with Kirkpatrick probably won’t work, and ask them specifically what the hell they’re up to. The Trump administration and Congress cannot trust a damn thing that Arrow is doing. And at the end of the day, ask yourself this question. Why are the former directors of Arrow messaging to the Wall Street Journal, messaging to podcasters in any place that will listen to them, not to trust David Grush or whistleblowers? I can tell you why. Because if Arrow can discredit the allegations of David Grush and others who have said on the record under oath that the U.S. government has been operating a UAP crash recovery program and has engaged in illegal retaliation against members of the United States citizens,
[192:05] the legacy program and the CIA, they don’t want that out. They do not want that out. And the way that you get Congress to stop asking about the legacy program, to stop asking about whistleblower retaliation, and God knows what else, is you poison the well and you convince Congress that one, they cannot trust whistleblowers such as David Grush, and two, that they are wasting taxpayer money. And what better way to convince the public of that than to go and plant a story with Aruna Viswanatha and Joel Schechtman and the Wall Street Journal to try and amp up your constituents, amp them up so they call up Tim Burchette and they say you’re wasting our money, amp up Ana Paulina Luna’s constituents and convince them that they’re wasting money. This is what Arrow is doing. This is what the CIA is doing, the IC. And we already know the ODNI cannot be trusted as well.
[193:12] I’ve talked about Aaron Lucas with Liberation Times. At the end of the day, this administration, they can’t be trusted with what they’re told because they are doing everything, everything to derail members of Congress and this current administration from revealing all of this stuff. So members of Congress, listen to what I say. Trust me, this is coming from a place of knowledge. This is coming from a place of a lot of folks with clearances coming and talking to me about this stuff. Don’t trust Arrow. And John Koslowski, his job is to carry the water of OUSD, INS, and the Pentagon. He has no other choice. Don’t trust Arrow. Don’t trust ODNI. They are disinformation operations. They are a disinformation operation. And again, why would they try to hire me and want me to push out propaganda? That is your answer right there why you cannot trust Arrow. It is an in-house bullshit factory, full stop. Folks, thanks for tuning in. Please, please tell your friends about our show.
[194:31] Please subscribe to our channel if you enjoyed this. Please hit the little notification bell. Again, YouTube is not promoting our channel whatsoever. And on Patreon, if you want to become a subscriber, we literally only are getting $200 a month from Patreon, a few hundred dollars depending on the month from YouTube and the podcast, and we are barely, barely making ends meet on this show. So if you find what we’re doing here valuable, please consider becoming a financial supporter. Thanks for spending your Sunday with us. And remember, Arrow is a bullshit factory. They are meant to throw whistleblowers under the bus. They are meant to deceive Congress. And you cannot trust a goddamn thing Arrow says. Full stop.