Radio Motherboard (Vice) — “The DeLonge Con”: Tom DeLonge interview (29 April 2016)

Source: Radio Motherboard, Vice Motherboard podcast, “The DeLonge Con,” published 29 April 2016 (~111 min). Hosts Adrian Jeffries & Jason Koebler. https://shows.acast.com/radiomotherboardpodcast/episodes/the-delonge-con
Subject: Tom DeLonge (Blink-182) on his Sekret Machines multimedia project and the novel Chasing Shadows (co-written with A.J. Hartley) — ~18 months before he launched To The Stars Academy (Oct 2017). Also features skeptical commentary from “Dark Journalist” Daniel Liszt.
Why it matters: a pre-TTSA primary in which DeLonge already claims DoD / special-access-program insider access (“ten people,” “five-star generals,” off-record, “talk through me and my fiction books”) and previews the exact narrative TTSA later professionalized — Roswell-era crashes, Operation Paperclip / Nazi reverse-engineering, UFO nuclear-missile interference, staged abductions & cattle mutilations as military disinformation. Bears directly on the “organic transparency vs. coordinated campaign” question.
Transcript: pulled 2026-05-30 via audio download → OpenAI Whisper (speech_to_text_remote.py, chunked); the caption/sub routes were unavailable for this Acast feed. Dynamically-inserted modern host-read ads (Zonic, ACAST promos, “History of the 90s”) at the head and tail have been trimmed; the body runs from the cold-open through the show’s sign-off. Speaker turns are not individually attributed (multi-voice).
Primary for the-2017-watershed.

Key moments (timestamps in body):

~38:00 — the origin story. DeLonge: meeting “the highest level and rank in a very, very specific division of the Department of Defense” in “the back of a bar restaurant”; the official says “it was the Cold War… we found a life-form, and every decision we made was because of the consciousness at the time.” “Ever since then I have a relationship with ten people.”
DeLonge’s method: he “educated” co-author Hartley, gave him “all the documents,” and “all the way up to print we were being handed things” — “two pages of the most explosive shit I’ve ever read.”
The lore: first crashes “with Germany in the 20s”; Operation Paperclip; UFOs that “turned on” nuclear missiles into a launch sequence (book two) before shutting them down; cattle mutilations and staged “it was just the military” abductions as deliberate disinformation because “the truth is much scarier.”
Government-as-good-guys framing: secrecy is “a war operation,” not because “you and I can’t handle it”; the 9/11 “everyone went to sign up” analogy.
Recommended sources: Joseph Farrell (Oxford PhD), MUFON (which he says retired senior military/intelligence figures have quietly run).
Dark Journalist (Daniel Liszt) critique: “it feels like sales hype… PR… performance art”; unsubstantiated “five-star generals gave me this information”; a “transmedia blockbuster” is “not what UFO research is about.”

[75.8s → 90.6s] Somewhere in that time frame, and he looked away, then he looked me back in the eyes, [90.6s → 120.8s] he goes, we found a life form. Welcome to Radio Motherboard. This is a very special episode, co-hosted by me, Adrian Jeffries, and my esteemed colleague, Jason Kevlar, and featuring the eternal 23-year-old former guitarist and co-lead singer for the band Blink-182, Tom DeLonge. [120.8s → 130.8s] Wait, why is Radio Motherboard talking to Tom DeLonge, you might ask? It’s not because he used to be on a poster in my bedroom, [130.8s → 136.8s] or because he’s Jason’s celebrity lookalike. It’s not because Blink-182 just released a new song, [136.8s → 152.2s] because he’s no longer in the band. We wanted to talk to Tom DeLonge because he just co-wrote, with the best-selling author A.J. Hartley, a bonkers 700-page novel about aliens and UFOs that he claims is based on true events. [152.2s → 161.6s] And he has more, a lot more, where that came from. Back on March 28th, Motherboard received an email with the subject line, [161.8s → 173.4s] The Punk Rocker and the Department of Defense. The email claimed that Tom DeLonge had walked away from Blink-182 in order to pursue an ambitious multimedia project about UFOs, [173.4s → 189.8s] titled Secret Machines. This project will include at least three novels, one non-fiction book, a documentary, and a soundtrack from his new band, Angels and Airwaves. The email also included a link to a video featuring Tom DeLonge. [191.8s → 202.2s] Early this year, I set out to do something pretty challenging. I wanted to shift perception on an extraordinary topic that had already over 70 years of research, opinion, [202.2s → 211.6s] and frankly, quite effective disinformation. I had the rare opportunity to present my ideas to an executive with the Department of Defense who worked in special access programs [211.6s → 230.4s] in an area called Watertown, also known as Area 51. That meeting led to multiple clandestine encounters across the United States, from desert airports to vacant buildings deep within Washington, D.C. From these exchanges, I learned three things. One, there are certain things that should never have been secret. [230.4s → 246.6s] Two, there are secrets that were justifiable at the time but should now be disclosed. And three, there are things that are so terrifying and unimaginable that certain interests believe that they should never, ever be made public. [246.6s → 258.0s] After this, you might even agree. Jason and I decided to read DeLonge’s 700-page masterpiece. As soon as we started the foreword, it was clear we were in for an adventure. [258.0s → 268.2s] For as long as I can remember, I have sought answers, Tom writes. He goes on to say that basically he learned the truth about the government and aliens, [268.2s → 280.8s] but his sources would only allow him to tell the story if he swathed it in fiction. The novel, which is called Chasing Shadows, follows a cast of characters, including a skeptical journalist who runs a UFO-debunking website, [280.8s → 290.6s] a former Marine pilot, a do-gooder heiress, and a Holocaust survivor. Basically, the journalist gets a hold of a diary written by the Holocaust survivor, [290.6s → 300.2s] detailing some things he saw relating to Nazi technology. The pilot gets recruited into a mysterious program, and the heiress uncovers a bizarre web of lies [300.2s → 321.8s] after the sudden death of her financier father. At some point, all the characters converge. The book also bounces between the present and the past, weaving a tale that wraps in pieces of UFO lore from Area 51 to the Roswell incident to Operation Paperclip, in which Nazi scientists were recruited to the U.S. in order to share their advanced knowledge with the American government. [321.8s → 331.6s] DeLonge is no newbie on the UFO scene. In 2011, he founded a site called Strange Times, and he’s appeared as a guest multiple times on Coast to Coast, [331.6s → 341.8s] the infamous late-night paranormal talk show. You know, you think of Blink-182, maybe I’m showing my age, but I think of these guys as a new band, but they’ve been around since 1992. [341.8s → 348.8s] They’ve sold 27 million albums. But if you talk to one of the co-founders, Tom DeLonge, have a conversation with him, [348.8s → 357.2s] he doesn’t talk a whole lot about music. He talks about UFOs and paranormal matters. Now, UFOlogy is a crowded scene. [357.2s → 365.0s] It’s not as if Tom DeLonge is the first person to claim to know the real truth about aliens. I wanted to get a sense of the reaction from the UFO community, [365.0s → 375.4s] so I talked to Daniel List, also known as Dark Journalist. List runs a YouTube channel and has more than 3 million views on his videos about topics including the opaque black budget [375.4s → 382.6s] and the government’s secrecy around high-tech projects. He’s also known for his YouTube documentary, The CIA Patsy, [382.6s → 387.0s] which argues that Lee Harvey Oswald was set up to take the fall for killing JFK. [387.0s → 410.8s] Tom DeLonge has been interested in UFOs for a long time. He had tried to launch a media project around it a couple years ago that I think he ended up not pursuing. The first piece of it to come out is this book, Chasing Shadows. And you mentioned that you had picked it up. Yeah, I’m about three quarters of the way through it now. It’s pretty long. [410.8s → 424.8s] It is. It’s about 700 pages. Yeah. That’s one heck of a debut. You have to give him credit. Well, my first reaction was, it’s a fantasy novel. I mean, it is a novel. [424.8s → 433.2s] And it reads like an X-Men movie, really, in some ways. I mean, it’s kind of a better plot, maybe, [433.2s → 446.6s] but it’s reminiscent of Iron Man and that kind of thing. And I think in Tom DeLonge’s bio, he mentions that he’s really into comics, you know, so it’s this kind of way of telling the story. [446.6s → 456.4s] And many of the themes are regurgitated from alternative research community sources. So we have, you know, some Area 51 lore. There’s some abduction lore. [456.4s → 487.8s] There’s some ancient alien themes thrown in. And there’s references to some of the fundamental cases, like Admiral Byrd, who, in some of his expeditions, you know, he saw a series of disks and he thought, oh, hey, the Nazis have a base down in Antarctica, you know. I think we also have to say, you know, A.J. Hartley is a major mystery writer. It’s a New York Times bestseller who’s known for writing thrillers. So, you know, he’s writing this book around Tom DeLonge’s themes. [487.8s → 493.6s] So it’s a thriller and it reads like that, you know. I mean, so it’s kind of interesting as a book. [493.6s → 498.8s] You know, my impression is that it was determined to cram every alternative buzzword in there. [498.8s → 510.2s] So as a novel, it’s fun. I mean, it’s interesting. But I think the issue really is, in his press releases and interviews, he keeps referring to it as though it’s real, you know. [510.2s → 518.2s] He’s talking to high-level figures of the military. So since that’s never substantiated or proven, [518.2s → 530.4s] it feels like sales hype. It feels like PR. And it has a little bit of that feeling. And it has a little bit of that Blair Witch kind of promo, [530.4s → 538.8s] which is, you know, people didn’t know if that was real or not when it came out. So it’s blurring the lines, I’d say, between some promo piece. [538.8s → 545.6s] You know, it could even be called performance art. You know, we could even have… We can imagine that he would come out in a couple years and say, [545.6s → 550.8s] well, you know, I wanted to do this. I put the issue out there and I was using creative license. [550.8s → 571.2s] You know, it was performance art, so shoot me. You know, so that’s… Unfortunately, when you don’t substantiate your sources and you say, like, five-star generals gave me this information, it doesn’t really do much for the credibility of the book. Right. So one of the things he says is that he is trying to spread knowledge. [571.2s → 580.8s] He’s trying to spread the word. And I think he is not necessarily talking about reaching out to people who already believe in UFOs and are interested in the questions, [581.0s → 591.2s] but also to get new people excited about the idea. And so I think that’s his justification, if you take it on its face, [591.2s → 598.6s] for why he’s doing fiction and nonfiction, kind of mixing the two. I think he’s going to release a fiction book and then a nonfiction book [598.6s → 605.8s] and alternate that way for the next couple years. Do you think that approach is valid? [605.8s → 618.6s] Well, I don’t like the idea of a media enterprise, you know. So, like, here’s… You know, if you’re going to do a book, this is the interesting thing about the UFO community, I think, [618.6s → 630.8s] which is they want the truth. They don’t want, you know, here’s part one and, you know, the sequel’s coming and I have a documentary on it and I’m going to put it on a major network [630.8s → 641.2s] and here’s my CD that goes with it. You know, it seems like you’re selling sneakers and T-shirts. So, you know, I mean, this is very serious work. [641.2s → 651.2s] The implications of UFO technology are very serious for the economy. They relate to free energy. They change the paradigm with the petrol dollar. [651.2s → 665.0s] I mean, it’s pretty significant, the reason the secrecy is so heavy. And you’ve had serious researchers, nuclear physicists, you know, even astronaut Gordon Cooper, who talked about, well, you know, [665.0s → 684.4s] he saw UFOs and he understood it was a major secret inside NASA. So, we have very high-level confirmations of the phenomenon and I think the idea of, you know, selling it like hotcakes in a package like that doesn’t really appeal to the UFO community because they’ve already, you know, [684.4s → 692.8s] they’ve been flim-flammed around and what they’re looking for is transparency. That’s the way I look at it and I think in something like this, [692.8s → 699.2s] it runs the risk, regardless of the intention, of coming off really as a PR exercise. [699.2s → 709.4s] You know, like, hey, I have insiders. I have a group of ten insiders giving me advice and they’re five-star generals, but you can’t meet them and they won’t go on the record, [709.4s → 722.6s] but they’ll talk through me and my fiction books. See that? For me, that doesn’t resonate much. Now, it may be, as far as entertainment goes, with a fantasy novel, it actually, you know, it works. It’s an exciting story. [722.6s → 734.0s] As I’ve been reading the book, you know, they’re good stories. You know, some of these people have done research all their lives on the topic, I think put a little more heft into trying to discover the reality of it [734.0s → 747.6s] without worrying about if part two of their new book coming was out, you know. So, I think we have to get away from, you know, when you want reality, I think you have to get away from the idea of, [747.8s → 754.6s] I’m going to make this a transmedia blockbuster, you know. That’s not what UFO research is about. [754.6s → 771.8s] It’s about what’s the truth of alien life visiting Earth? What’s the truth of advanced technology flying in the sky and the government not talking about it and possibly corporations re-engineering the technology? You know, those are very important questions. [771.8s → 778.4s] So, for me, it kind of falls short on the reality side. Even as entertainment, it’s kind of fun. [778.4s → 788.0s] Okay, so Dark Journalist isn’t sold. It may be that the UFO community just isn’t ready for Tom DeLonge, but Jason and I were still super stoked to talk to him. [788.0s → 793.4s] So, you guys would like to speak to me about certain things I hear. That’s Tom DeLonge. [793.4s → 806.0s] He was super nice and he really appreciated that we had actually read the book. He even cracked a couple jokes at the beginning of the interview which we miserably failed to record. Then we got into his book. [806.0s → 820.6s] I will say it is a good book and I did not expect to say that. No, you know, no offense to you, I hope, but just, you know, it’s not the kind of book that I read and also like when rock stars write books, they’re not always great, [820.6s → 831.2s] but it’s a page-turner and it’s extremely well-paced. Like it starts out at a quick pace and then at some point it starts to accelerate and then at some point you like can’t put it down [831.2s → 838.2s] and it’s 700 pages and it really didn’t feel like it. So, I will say I thought it was a good book. [838.2s → 862.2s] Thank you. So, congratulations. Thank you. Trust me, the baggage of being a musician and doing the things that I do now, it’s difficult and, you know, and I say baggage because if you spent your whole life, you know, as a painter and then one day you come in and want to be a doctor, you know, people are going to say, well, why should I let you operate on me? [862.2s → 891.2s] All you’ve been doing is painting for all these years, you know. So, in my mind, you don’t have the skill sets required, but you might say, no, I have a steady hand and I have the ability to concentrate for long periods of time and have the ability to work my way around issues while I’m deep into something, you know, and then you start to go, oh, wow, you can be a doctor, you know, but it’s, you know, for me coming in and doing this stuff, I’m up against quite a lot of skepticism and I get that [891.2s → 899.2s] and I willfully, you know, invite that and signed up for it because it’s always a pleasant surprise when an artist does something [899.2s → 911.2s] that you weren’t expecting and it was good, you know. I know what I’m doing. I’m not walking off of a stage in front of 100,000 people so I can go out and embarrass myself writing a really shitty book. [911.2s → 921.2s] That’s just not, I’m not dumb, you know. So I’m very excited about people like yourself giving it a shot [921.2s → 937.2s] and walking out after it and saying, wow, this is pretty dope. So what is this all about again? And then I can step in and say, well, let me take you on a bit of a ride, you know, but what’s even more important than that is what the purpose is for the entire project [937.2s → 970.2s] because that’s what’s really transformative. This is something, you know, there’s things in that book you read that have never been told to the world before ever and if you’re into things like the UFO phenomenon or you’re wondering about our place in the universe and you’re wondering about why the government has secrets and you’re wondering about the breakthroughs scientifically, you know, or engineering breakthroughs that we’ve done and why they haven’t come out and, you know, if you’re wondering about all these things, you’re going to start to find those things within this project, [970.2s → 978.2s] within these books and within these films. So I very much was reminded of a book I read by Peter W. Singer called Ghost Fleet [978.2s → 993.2s] and I know you worked with him on this project a bit. Can you explain a little bit about, you know, you just said that there are things here that have never been told before, but it’s a fictional book, so it’s kind of based on, you know, [993.2s → 999.2s] real things and there are real things in the book. Are you hoping that people will be able to sort of read between the lines [999.2s → 1025.2s] and see what is real and what is, you know, fiction? Absolutely. I know Mr. Singer, we interviewed him for the documentary portions of what’s going to be coming out over this next year for Secret Machines and, yeah, he has a fantastic book with Ghost Fleet. I am absolutely serious when saying, you know, this is historical fiction. [1025.2s → 1042.2s] The characters are fiction. Those interludes are all real in the book. Even elements of going to Groom Lake or Area 51 and needing to, you know, have certain security protocols that take place in the book [1042.2s → 1049.2s] were put in there by other people all the way down. When you say the interludes, you mean there are these interstitial scenes [1049.2s → 1067.2s] where people see a UFO. Yeah, well, even more than that, there’s, yeah, we call them interludes, but yes, it’s exactly what you described where these stories take place throughout the book that seem to have nothing to do with the narrative [1067.2s → 1080.2s] that’s going on as you read the book. All of a sudden, you flip the page and you’re in this whole new chapter that has nothing to do with what you’ve been reading and there’s a very strong purpose for those because it’s framing, you know, [1080.2s → 1099.2s] let me back up here. The reason the architecture exists the way it does is so people can be handed very important information step by step about how it’s financed, how it’s kept secret, what it is, how the things work, what the science issue existing to religion [1099.2s → 1119.2s] and to all the other things that go into this. And so what we’ve done is with those interludes is we’re framing events that have happened, and we will continue to do that in all the books, and we’re getting you to understand that this stuff not only is real and these events are real, but we’re playing them out in such a way [1119.2s → 1142.2s] that you can step back and go, wow, I actually can see how that can happen. If someone came to you and just said, hey, you know, there was about three crashes, maybe four, that happened in the 30s, 40s, and 50s, and they were from somewhere else, and they weren’t human, and it was so advanced it took a bunch of German scientists [1142.2s → 1155.2s] to figure out how it worked or even theorize how it worked for decades. Whatever, if I just threw that on you, you’d just go, okay, you’re smoking a lot of shit right now, and you’re making things up, and that’s science fiction, [1155.2s → 1165.2s] and there’s no possible way. But if you take the time to walk through page by page, how things work in a scenario like that, [1165.2s → 1177.2s] and getting called in the middle of the night. There’s one interlude about a little girl that has to go with her dad who is an engineer and scientist that gets called to an event out in the desert late one night, [1177.2s → 1197.2s] and the little girl is trying to understand what she sees. A bunch of men that are panicking, a bunch of men that are trying to understand something that seems a lot bigger than they are, a bunch of wreckage on the floor, and all those things kind of galvanize in her head the same way it would for a reader, the same way it would for any of us [1197.2s → 1203.2s] throwing into a situation like that. So you’re kind of being delivered a real event [1203.2s → 1214.2s] by not just throwing it all out in one breath. It’s step by step learning as you go along. There’s an interlude in the book about these UFOs [1214.2s → 1222.2s] shutting down our nuclear missiles. We’re going to revisit that interlude in book two from a different perspective and show how before they got shut down, [1222.2s → 1228.2s] they got turned on and they started going through a train. Whoa, that was spooky. [1228.2s → 1238.2s] That was like they were turning on right now. I know. So we’ll see how the missiles were turned on and started going through their launch sequences like they were all going to start launching. [1238.2s → 1255.2s] That’s the other part of the story that people don’t know. So you’re going to realize that before we tell you that the UFO flew over some facilities in the 70s and turned on the weapons, let’s just tell you there’s a big interesting machine that’s glowing that turned off the missiles before we scare you and tell you a little bit more [1255.2s → 1274.2s] about what happened that evening. So the goal here is that it’s historical fiction and we’re throwing a lot out there for people to digest and talk about and the ramifications of all of this and what it is and what it’s doing [1274.2s → 1302.2s] and why to this day we’re still dealing with it. That’ll start to come out in book number two. And so as long as we ground everything in book one and talk about how we have certain things and we’re exploiting this technology and other places on Earth have it as well and everybody’s in this kind of grand chess game and then showing you a few events of how these things happen and how it does really exist, then you’ll be open to all the other things [1302.2s → 1309.2s] we need to teach you in book two and three. Right. And I notice you keep saying we, [1309.2s → 1327.2s] which I was really curious about. I know you have a lot of people you’re working with on this project, but you also collaborated with A.J. Hartley, who is a best-selling writer who writes everything from adventure and fantasy books to young adult fiction. And he’s also a professor of Shakespeare [1327.2s → 1333.2s] at the University of North Carolina, Charlotte. And I was just curious how you two got hooked up. [1333.2s → 1346.2s] How did you find him? Was he interested in this stuff as well? No, he wasn’t. I knew of him through his agent, who I was talking to the agency about [1346.2s → 1353.2s] who would be good for this project. And she quickly said that A.J. would be perfect for it. And when I started reading about him, [1353.2s → 1359.2s] I went, wow, this guy won book of the year for Hamlet. But then I started reading his other stuff [1359.2s → 1368.2s] where he was able to attack any subject or any genre. And authors rarely can do that. Usually you’re like a young adult author or you’re a science fiction writer [1368.2s → 1383.2s] or you’re a thriller writer. He can do any of it. But when I was able to really sit with him and get to know him more, I learned that he’s a very elevated thinker [1383.2s → 1396.2s] and a very elevated writer. And that’s what the project needed. And so it wasn’t just like grabbing a science fiction author that knows how to create drama about googly-eyed aliens [1396.2s → 1410.2s] that leave slime in the house. He was going to attack it from a very grounded, real, rational way. And so the first three to six months of our relationship [1410.2s → 1422.2s] was me teaching him as much as I could about this subject. Everyone knows about the idea of UFOs. Everyone’s heard something about Roswell. And everyone has their own opinions [1422.2s → 1437.2s] if it’s even possible or not. But what nobody really knows is the enormity of the subject matter. Sitting with him and talking to him specifically about the secret space program, how it’s financed, how it’s hidden, what we’re building, what we’re doing, [1437.2s → 1443.2s] and why we’re doing it. And then giving him all the documents and really showing him. [1443.2s → 1458.2s] He’s just like, oh my God, I had no idea that this is all out there. Real Freedom of Information Act requests and CIA reports and whistleblowers or high-level officials that have come out openly and talked about it. [1458.2s → 1463.2s] He just goes, none of this stuff makes it to normal people like me. I know, I know. [1463.2s → 1473.2s] But that was by design. By design, that’s how it’s been disclosed to people. So they can give you information but you don’t freak out over it because chances are it’s not real [1473.2s → 1478.2s] because they’ve been also ridiculing it as they send it out. So no one’s really scared of it. [1478.2s → 1482.2s] And that’s what they wanted. They wanted everyone to know about this stuff but they don’t want people to be scared of it [1482.2s → 1490.2s] because they’re dealing with it. They’re working really, really fucking hard to deal with a threat that’s existential [1490.2s → 1500.2s] to who we are as people. And they’ve made enormous progress. So you exposed this world to him. [1500.2s → 1506.2s] How did it go after that? How much of the writing was him and how much of it was you? [1506.2s → 1516.2s] How did you come up with these characters? I wrote a screenplay, about a 180-page screenplay that set off a lot of the characters [1516.2s → 1521.2s] and a lot of the tonality that I was going after. So he read that and I think he got a good idea [1521.2s → 1528.2s] for what I was trying to achieve. It’s easier for me to write a screenplay than it is… I’m not a novelist, number one. [1531.2s → 1540.2s] Writing a script, I understand that medium because it has an element of visualization as you’re reading, in between dialogues, [1540.2s → 1548.2s] just for the action sequences and whatever. So he read that and then we came back and we said, okay, well, what’s the best architecture [1548.2s → 1557.2s] for what we’re trying to achieve? We decided that a Game of Thrones-type architecture worked because there’s a lot of characters interweaving [1557.2s → 1562.2s] out of each other’s lives over a long period of time. There’s so many characters. [1562.2s → 1570.2s] Yeah, so that’s what we needed. It’s a long cast. And we wanted and needed to talk about all these things [1570.2s → 1580.2s] because you can’t just go and… If you really want to discuss the subject, you can’t go in and just say, you have one character and he works at SETI [1580.2s → 1591.2s] and they heard a signal and there’s life. That’s not doing anything for what has happened. Even when we deal with some of the retrievals that we’ve had of the technology, [1591.2s → 1599.2s] whose POV are you going to go with? The general in charge of the wreckage? The scientist that spends years underground [1599.2s → 1609.2s] trying to figure out how it works? The intelligence operative that’s running around and gathering information amongst what’s happening in the world [1609.2s → 1617.2s] because of what this phenomenon is doing? Whose POV are you going to use? So for us, we said we need a lot of POVs, [1617.2s → 1631.2s] a lot of points of view. So basically, he read my stuff. I educated him on everything. We came up with an architecture that can hold a lot of different characters to tell the enormity of a story, [1631.2s → 1638.2s] and then he would go away and start writing. Then he would send me the material. I would review it and I would make notes and changes [1638.2s → 1647.2s] and he would go away again. Once it was finished, I sent that to a handful of my advisors and had them pour through it and change a whole bunch of things [1647.2s → 1654.2s] that they felt needed to be changed. And then I got information at the final… I got some really explosive stuff [1654.2s → 1660.2s] at the bottom of the ninth inning to include. And that’s what I’m saying. All the way up to print, [1660.2s → 1667.2s] we were being handed things to have in this book. And that to me is… That sounds like our job. [1667.2s → 1680.2s] It’s exciting, man. I can’t even tell you. I’m pulling over in my car on a busy street as I’m getting an email that says, you know, is there still time to include this? And I read it and it’s two pages [1680.2s → 1689.2s] of the most explosive shit I’ve ever read. And I’ve been studying this stuff for 20 years. Yeah. Someone like me, I feel like I know a lot about it, [1689.2s → 1695.2s] but then I get some of this information. I go, holy shit. This is… It makes all the sense in the world, [1695.2s → 1704.2s] but holy shit, you know? Right. I really related to the character of Tamika and I liked her arc. And I was wondering if you ever felt like her [1704.2s → 1712.2s] during the reporting and writing of this book. That’s a good question. Yeah, sorry. Tamika is kind of like a skeptical journalist [1712.2s → 1719.2s] who kind of debunks a lot of conspiracy theories. And then she’s delivered this journal from a Holocaust survivor [1719.2s → 1726.2s] that sets her on this like very crazy path. Right. And I think most people will relate to Tamika. [1726.2s → 1733.2s] I didn’t because I knew that the stuff was real. I knew a lot about it. So I wasn’t coming at this as a skeptic, [1733.2s → 1743.2s] but most people will. And I think that’s why her character is so important. But the more important thing about her character is she’s helping you realize what happened in World War II. [1743.2s → 1758.2s] It’s a very, very important part of the story. The first crashes that was told to me that happened was with Germany in the 20s. So Germany had the first pieces of something [1758.2s → 1763.2s] that fell on their land that no one knew what it was. And that’s why their science and their war machine [1763.2s → 1771.2s] was so much more advanced. The V2 rockets and all that kind of stuff. And that’s why we grabbed all the German scientists [1771.2s → 1776.2s] in Operation Paperclip and brought them over here. And they all went into the Apollo space program [1776.2s → 1790.2s] and worked out in Utah and New Mexico. We had like a few thousand German Nazi scientists come over. I mean, Werner von Braun was a Nazi scientist [1790.2s → 1798.2s] on the cover of Time magazine for leading all the scientists at NASA. He was in charge of building the rocket [1798.2s → 1808.2s] that took the new Armstrong to the moon. So we needed to be able to tell a story back in World War II because that’s when things really started happening [1808.2s → 1815.2s] with this phenomenon. The phenomenon’s been around forever, but our interactions with it to this degree [1815.2s → 1827.2s] really started with Germany in the 20s. Yeah, so I was reading about Operation Paperclip and you’re totally right. It was 1,500 scientists and engineers [1827.2s → 1835.2s] who were recruited to the U.S. after the fall of Nazi Germany. And their reasoning was that, of course, [1835.2s → 1843.2s] they wanted that technical expertise for themselves. But they also said, oh, we want to make sure these people don’t end up working for Russia [1843.2s → 1858.2s] or working for a newly arisen Germany. So that was an interesting experience for me. It was reading the book and then going and looking up things online and finding out that they were actually real [1858.2s → 1879.2s] and basically how they were represented in the book. The other thing that I had to look up was the Ash Meadows speckled dace, which in the book is this fish that’s supposedly endangered, but it’s kind of really just so that the government can keep people out of Area 51. [1881.2s → 1886.2s] And so I looked it up and it’s real and there’s a Fish and Wildlife entry for it. [1886.2s → 1900.2s] And so that was a weird experience for me. There’s a lot of stuff in there, I’m telling you. And if people have an open mind and really kind of surrender a lot of their belief systems, [1900.2s → 1922.2s] I think you can come out changed. The advisors that I’m working with are in charge of these topics. And so people have to realize that this project over the coming years, what it’s going to do is potentially groundbreaking [1922.2s → 1935.2s] if it does what I think it can do. But I have a lot of work ahead of me to pull off. But we’re doing some really interesting documentaries and news pieces at the moment on this entire project [1935.2s → 1948.2s] that will let people know further how real this is. So why do these people want this story out if they’re aware of these sorts of things and are in charge of them? I’m curious what their incentive is. [1948.2s → 1954.2s] I think it’s something they want everyone to know about. They don’t think that this information [1954.2s → 1964.2s] should be exclusive to them. The reason they’re keeping it secret is because you have to think of it like a war operation, [1964.2s → 1973.2s] an intelligence operation. They’re in the middle of doing something that requires extreme secrecy because of the adversaries they’re dealing with, [1973.2s → 1981.2s] not because of you and I can’t handle it. So they want the human race to know about these things [1981.2s → 1994.2s] and to transform the way people think. But they don’t have entire divisions dedicated to teaching us about it and having us absorb the info [1994.2s → 2000.2s] and what that means for society. What we’re going to be attacking in the next book [2000.2s → 2025.2s] and with the project is religion. So religion plays a very, very big part of the UFO phenomenon. And if you look at what’s happening on Earth, the religious divides and the perpetual state of war, that’s something that only a new generation of youth that thinks differently about their own personal belief systems [2025.2s → 2033.2s] can come together and get us out of that mess. And there’s only one topic that I’ve ever heard of that I know anything about [2033.2s → 2040.2s] that can change somebody’s religious beliefs. And it’s going to be a topic like this. But it’s a very touchy subject, you know, [2040.2s → 2054.2s] and it’s a very difficult thing for people to accept. But it’s coming. So that’s interesting that you say that people, you know, we’re talking about people in the government don’t think that the truth [2054.2s → 2072.2s] is not something that people can handle. It’s just that it’s a geopolitical sensitive situation. Because I noticed that in your book, the government characters are kind of like cool, suave men in black guys, and they’re the good guys, [2072.2s → 2093.2s] which is, that’s unusual for people who talk about UFOs. Like often people who are UFO conspiracy theorists, whatever you want to call them, they think the government is the bad guys. Yeah, I know. Trust me, I know. And that can’t be further from the truth. It’s, and I’m not saying that [2093.2s → 2102.2s] because I’m being used by these guys. When you find out the real reasons for secrecy and what they’re doing, [2102.2s → 2111.2s] it’s transformative. And it makes you go, holy shit, that makes perfect sense. And how do I help? [2111.2s → 2118.2s] You know, what do you guys need? You know, what is, you know, what is a way that, it’s kind of like when 9-11 happened [2118.2s → 2129.2s] and everyone went to sign up the next day. It’s because when it comes down to truth and when it comes down to, you know, the powers that be that are being transparent of what they do, you know, then you trust them and then you say, [2129.2s → 2142.2s] well, let me help you. Like, what do we need to do? And this topic should have that element to it. Once you find out why they’re keeping it secret and what they’re doing for us all [2142.2s → 2152.2s] that they get no credit for. They just don’t have an arm of their machine that takes its time to come and talk to us [2152.2s → 2165.2s] and make sure we understand, you know. You got to think about it, think about it this way. It’s kind of like you have a group of soldiers over in Afghanistan right now that are putting their lives at risk every single day to go do something [2165.2s → 2180.2s] that keeps us safe. Now, since they don’t have anybody to take the time and go and tell us what they’re doing, we just talk every single day as civilians and we just go, yeah, there’s some guys that just like killing people and they just so bad just want to go out [2180.2s → 2193.2s] and shoot them up. They’re like these crazy, like, good old boys from Texas that just always wanted to have a machine gun, you know. And so we start defining them because they don’t have a mechanism to tell us what they’re doing. But if you went to Afghanistan, [2193.2s → 2210.2s] you’ll find out that they’re good guys. They just got out of high school and in some cool city and they’re normal like you and I and they’re being asked to do some very difficult things and every single day they’re trying to hunt down somebody that’s trying to let off a biological weapon [2210.2s → 2220.2s] inside of our borders. And you kind of go, oh my God, you guys are dealing with some really heavy shit and we’re over here just trying to act like you just want to be at war and kill people because we don’t know, [2220.2s → 2237.2s] because we don’t talk to you. We don’t know anything about what you’re doing. And it’s those kind of eye-opening experiences that make us think differently about our government or the Department of Defense or whatever. Are there bad people? Yeah. You know, Nixon was arguably a bad president. He did bad shit, you know. [2237.2s → 2270.2s] And it doesn’t mean that everyone’s good. The operations and the reasons and what they’re doing and what they’re trying to accomplish, those are all, I believe, after dealing with the men and women that I’m dealing with and asking very specific questions and being told very specific things about the enormity of this, that they need to be supported and they need to be given credit for some revolutionary things [2270.2s → 2278.2s] that they’ve done over the past 60 years. Stuff that the entire world should be thankful for, [2278.2s → 2288.2s] not just the United States. Right, right. And you talk about kind of like signing up after 9-11. And I was wondering, was there a moment [2288.2s → 2295.2s] when you decided to sign up for this? And it’s very obvious that this is such a passionate project for you [2295.2s → 2309.7s] and I would imagine. imagine like maybe one of the most important things like getting this the word out about this. I’m just curious like when that sort of happened. I imagine that at some point being in Blink-182 was the most important thing [2309.7s → 2351.1s] in your life and it seems like now this is the most important thing in your life. When did that change? You know I went through a hand in the very beginning it took a couple months to be connected to very specific people. When I got connected to this one person that is of the highest level and rank in a very very specific division of the Department of Defense. When I sat with that person in the back of a bar restaurant by ourselves and the very first thing he does is look me in the eye and says it was the Cold War and every single day [2351.1s → 2385.2s] we thought nuclear war could happen. Every single day we were prepared that the end of the world could be coming because of because of you know the state of affairs between very powerful countries and people. He’s all but somewhere in that time frame and he looked away then he looked me back in the eyes he goes we found a life-form and everything we did and every decision we made was because of the consciousness at the time. Right at that moment my heart sank and I have the chills right now to tell this to you I [2385.2s → 2429.6s] realized that I’m dealing with some very very important and explosive stuff and I better quickly make sure I’m respectful and I give it the I give it the sensitivity it deserves. I sent I sat there for two hours after that and had the meeting of my lifetime and ever since then I have a relationship with ten people that at times each one of them is doing that same type of conversation with me. I walked out of that and that’s all going to be in the documentary and everything that we’re doing but walking out of those [2429.6s → 2464.4s] situations over that first few months I realized quickly that going from being in a big rock and roll band that that touches people’s lives in a certain way or that is a lot of fun or it’s my passion or this or that is a completely different thing than dealing with something that is is can change the world you know like can literally change that not me but what these guys are doing and I just wanted to be a part of it I just want to be a part of something that is that important and if I’m one of the sparks that ignites in a [2464.4s → 2507.1s] new way for everyone in a new awareness of ourselves then that to me was was definitely worth it. That’s very intense. I know right? I know. Are you? The whole thing’s crazy intense and I think people they they’re they’re just so quick to think they know who I am and what I do and they have they really have no clue what I’m involved in you know so yeah I mean do you do you get anything from your fans like where they feel like hey we were here for fun and now you’re trying to like now I feel like I’m in school like do you get any kind of like [2507.1s → 2544.2s] what is the reaction from your fans been? Well that’s a good question on this you know this isn’t a band project anybody that’s followed my band Angels and Airwaves knows that I’ve been involved and passionate with larger kind of themes for a very long time it’s our 10-year anniversary this year and so I think those fans are have always been open and engaged with some of the broader ideas that I’ve had as part of the ethos of that art project and it’s not a band it’s an art project you know but I think people also know that I’ve [2544.2s → 2578.8s] done a lot in my life I’ve I’ve been building companies and doing a lot of different things outside of Blink-182 so I think at this point most of my fans have come to expect that I’m gonna try very ambitious stuff and hopefully you know it’s not too big of a turnout are there a lot of people out there that just don’t I don’t care what I mean yeah of course are there a lot of fans out there like you know go back out Blink and play some fast songs and make me feel like I’m 16 again you know that’s always gonna exist and I understand why [2578.8s → 2612.8s] because it’s important to them and that part of their life is is connected to what I did and they want to they want to see it more and I get that and and they will they will see more of that but you know there’s I’m a complicated dude you know there’s a lot of things that I’m passionate about and there’s a lot of things that I want to accomplish before before I’m gone you know right for the people who do want to learn more what are your favorite UFO news sources or where should people be looking for more besides your books obviously you know [2612.8s → 2651.0s] that’s a really good question there’s a guy named Joseph Farrell that you know you can’t judge a book by its cover because the covers to his book sometimes look really really fringe but he’s a PhD from Oxford in ancient religions and he’s written a lot of books following the movements of technology and people after the fall of the Nazi Empire you know the short-lived Empire and leading its way into the military-industrial complex and following that technology and following those threads and you can learn a hell of a lot from his books I [2651.0s → 2692.9s] hell of a lot and he’s I think he has a tremendous gift I will tell you this one of the biggest secrets I was told to communicate he is the only person out of 200 books that I’ve read that was saying the same thing and I thought that was pretty pretty telling are there like websites for sort of like breaking UFO news I mean if there’s like any events somewhere or sightings somewhere like oh yeah would one like what are the best ones yeah I don’t follow those sites there’s so many of them I mean move on the mutual UFO network is the biggest [2692.9s → 2738.1s] and most respected and people have to realize that even move on as a as an international civilian run organization to study UFO reports and to archive information what people don’t know is that some of the highest ranking military and intelligence operatives in the country have retired and gone and run that organization for long after the retirement is starting back in the 50s so people have to you know you can’t just look at it like it’s some weird fringe organization that’s not the case I think they would be blown away to know [2738.1s → 2770.3s] what types of people have been involved in building that organization over the years and there’s a reason because the government does get some of its information from organizations like that you know a lot of people think the CIA knows everything and they have magical powers to have more info than everybody else but people don’t realize is the CIA gets its information from the earth the same way we do new sources people on the ground asking around do they have satellites and operatives that you know can get into the fine print of what’s [2770.3s → 2809.8s] happening yes they do but if you spend enough time and you follow the events of the world closely you can learn a hell of a lot and that’s why I’ve got the relationship with people that I have is because I knew a hell of a lot and when I put forth a thesis of what the UFO phenomenon was I didn’t put forth an idea that you’re seeing on some weird show on the History Channel on Sunday afternoon you know I assembled a thesis painstakingly over many years doing a lot of research and I’m not in the CIA but I was still able to get very [2809.8s → 2845.8s] close to what’s going on I asked our editor-in-chief Derek Meade who knows a lot more about UFOs than I do what we should ask you and he said I told him a little bit about the book and he was surprised to hear that area 51 or dreamland is a big part of it and he was like oh UFO like UFO conspiracy theorists that crowd like they’ve all moved on from area 51 like area 51 is passe in the community like I guess I don’t know if it’s because the government has acknowledged its existence now or why but he he said area [2845.8s → 2880.3s] 51 is like nobody cares about it anymore that’s not that’s not exactly that you there are many sites where they do many different things one site in particular has four different locations and the first three locations are just to throw you off where the fourth one is so either the way I was told is you if you showed up one let’s say this isn’t the real place it’s over here and by the time you’re with your way to the fourth one they’ll arrest you area 51 is in the book because all we’re talking about right now are the beginnings of test [2880.3s → 2919.9s] flights and you know proving a technology and starting to get out let me play it this way let me say this way you when they build the technology for the first time they build the pieces in many different locations they assemble it all together at one location when they test it they do it at a different location and when they operate it they do that at a different location so area 51 is in the book because they’re in the middle of proving and testing the technology and the other books you’ll learn more there’s one that will be in [2919.9s → 2952.8s] book number two that nobody’s ever heard of that is going to that is pretty fantastic I wanted to talk about one of my favorite parts of the book and there is this is a spoiler so if you haven’t read it maybe skip the next two minutes or something it’s the part where to me guys kidnapped and put into basically a saucer I guess and there are aliens in this saucer and you know she’s kidnapped and you don’t really know what’s happened to her and then she kind of fights her way out and you find out that the aliens are people dressed up in [2952.8s → 2985.1s] suits and I like that part because it happens maybe like halfway through the book or three quarters of the way and I was like oh here are the aliens and it was sort of like this you know bait-and-switch sort of thing and I’m curious if you could just talk a little bit about why you put that scene or is that is that something that you believe happens like you it’s done to kind of undermine her as a journalist like she saw this very stereotypical thing that lots of people report seeing and I just wanted to know if you could talk a [2985.1s → 3023.6s] little bit more about like what went on there yeah the that scene in the book is early on when the UFO phenomenon started having all these abduction reports pop up there were there were groups that would stage those events specifically to try and get the the consciousness to not think it was alien so we would do these operations to make people think oh it’s just the military the military is doing some crazy stuff you know and and and the military wanted that they wanted [3023.7s → 3059.9s] people to think that the abductions were just the military because the the real information the truth is much scarier and they don’t want people knowing that same thing with cattle mutilations we would find cows mutilated blood missing no vascular collapse you know cutting in between cells hearts missing with no incisions whatsoever jaws and and generals cored out with intensive heat and then the cow would be dropped from a from a very high elevation and in a pit on the ground because of the impact I mean really creepy weird shit the [3059.9s → 3091.2s] military would know that event happened probably because they can monitor to monitor the movements of certain craft and they would race to that location and they would throw like a gas mask into the grass nearby so when people come by and they see this mutilated cow they go oh here’s a gas mask the military’s doing a secret operation because they want you to think it’s the military they don’t want you to think about what it really is and so what we’re setting up with that scene is specifically that and the idea of that in the book is to let [3091.2s → 3124.7s] you know that the subjects much larger and more complex and that we’re gonna start to understand that those operations existed because they wanted they needed time to get that get a handle on everything and to create defensive mechanisms for it and they don’t want people freaking out you know so what they would do is they would go and you know create their own alien abduction scenario but at the end of the day it seems like it’s military and it was probably military I remember seeing a military guy there and that’s all I [3124.7s → 3161.0s] remember and then everyone starts to go okay these are all military things this the UFO thing it’s not real that’s what they wanted so I also liked that scene but I wanted to ask you about the scene that was probably the one that I felt like took me out of the narrative a little bit which was one of the interludes we talked about before how you have these scenes of people having sightings that are based on real reported sightings and there’s this one where this couple is driving in the backcountry and they see something in [3161.0s → 3193.2s] the sky and they see a light and then they have memory loss for three hours and then it’s like when they’re coming back to consciousness they’re saying you know like that they feel violated they feel dirty and like they need to take a shower and it was like I don’t know if this is what you intended but to me the subtext was that there had been some kind of anal probe level sort of thing that happened and that’s when I was like okay I was like I was I was riding along with this and then we get to the part where there’s the anal probe and [3193.2s → 3218.5s] then you just like you can’t help but roll your eyes you’re just like this is like all right so we’re this is National Enquirer like bat-boy territory yeah it’s hard for you guys to first of all we don’t say anal probing but let’s make that clear but uh but I hear what you’re saying right you don’t explicitly say anal probing that was something that I read into it so maybe that says more about me than about the book but that was what I got out of it. No no no I get it yeah what what people will have to [3218.5s → 3264.2s] realize is that that is true and what is going on with the UFO phenomenon has to do with genetics it has to do with the DNA of mankind it has to do with some other stuff I can’t talk about and that is going to start to be addressed in book number two where people will start to understand why it’s happening in the first place and that when somebody goes through what they don’t understand that we call an abduction scenario and they feel violated and they see the medical tests and they know that something is going on with their own body that is [3264.2s → 3297.7s] very very true there’s a doctor dr. Roger Leary’s a surgeon he just passed away last year but he he removed over over 11 implants from people where they where they knew that he was the one doctor that actually did it we do the MRI find out where the implant is and he would take it out sometimes the implant would call crawl deeper into the person’s body sometimes the implant would break but then reassemble itself sometimes the the implant would be sending extremely low radio frequencies that when you look up in the government [3297.7s → 3331.0s] which band of frequency that is it would be one that NASA reserves for deep space communication sometimes after the people the guy somebody would see the implant or know they have an implant he would take it out you go to their house and everything is magnetized at the house the dirt the the wood the tree the window the glass everything’s magnetized you know so the point is is what are these implants doing how are they being put in and and and we know how in some cases how we’ve taken them out and we sent them to two laboratories [3331.0s → 3361.6s] they’re always that’s nanotechnology that’s what they did find out a lot of times it’s containing elements that aren’t even here on earth and and he’s done extensive research on that as as the sir I mean this is a guy that can lose his medical license for talking about aliens you know it’s a very serious thing so it’s but it comes up it comes out like science fiction it like what the fuck are you talking about you know probing and that but that was by design you know the Brookings Institution think tank put out a plan [3361.6s → 3396.4s] how to ridicule the information as they release it that way exactly what you’re doing happens you’ve heard about it but it sounds outlandish so you don’t really believe it but you’re still kind of curious to know more about it but you’re not scared and that’s exactly what you’re doing and that was by design I am kind of scared that idea of alien implants that are burrowing deeper into your body that were inserted by an anal probe is terrifying well it’s not inserted by an anal probe but uh but it is it’s not is that a spoiler no no that [3396.4s → 3431.4s] whole thing the anal probe is it’s a big joke you know obviously I don’t know um everything that happens in those situations but you should read a book or a series of books by a guy named John Mack John Mack was the head of Harvard Medical School he was a psychiatrist that believed the abductions were real he just passed away um got hit by a car out of nowhere in London a few years ago they tried to kick him out of Harvard because they thought what he was doing was crazy but they ended up keeping him in because he won all the lawsuits and [3431.4s → 3466.0s] he was the head of the entire medical school he wrote like five books on abductions and he says this is real and you can read any of you go on Amazon right now and read all of the all of the the books that he’s written and and 20,000 people that he’s interviewed and studied from all over the world all different ethnicities and and races and ages and locations and they’re all it’s all exactly the same stuff there’s a series of medical experiments that happen to certain people with certain genetic lineages over a period of time [3466.0s → 3496.8s] and they follow them through their whole life and it has something to do with the DNA so how much of this story do you think that you know like if you had to put a percentage on it like how much of this overall you know project the UFO the various UFO projects do you believe that you know and do you think that you know I’m sure you’re constantly learning more but like have you put all the pieces together no I you know it used to be a joke between me and my friends I [3496.8s → 3534.0s] would call them up I go holy shit I now know 95% of the truth and then I’ll call him two days later go dude it’s down to 85 you know but I was always like a running joke with me and my friends but um I think when you’re talking about building blocks of what’s going on I know a great deal you know but it’s a very it’s a very large complex topic you know and there’s a lot of things I don’t know I don’t know all the the many different programs that they’re doing all over the world and the trillions of dollars they’ve spent and what they’re [3534.0s → 3576.6s] studying and what weapons they’ve actually built I know some of the craft that they’ve built I don’t know you know I just know certain things I just know certain things and and and and I know the basics and the foundations for what’s going on but this is you know I have a guy I own the life rights to a scientist and I’m putting out his autobiography later this year that worked underground for six months in 1989 as a scientist back engineering in the alien propulsion engine and his story not only is true but it’s you know he told [3576.6s → 3616.5s] me that when he worked there only 22 people on earth knew of that base in the mountain 22 there are only 22 people you know like if you went to an admiral that was running the Pacific fleet for the Navy out in the oceans that had multiple carriers under his command and he was a big-time Admiral that guy was not one of the 22 he would know nothing about that base you know does that make sense so it’s it’s it’s very very very compartmentalized okay so I have a hard ball question for you so to be totally honest when I first heard about this [3616.5s → 3652.1s] project when we got in touch with Michael your rep my immediate thought was that it’s a gimmick that it’s like a put-on where you Tom DeLonge are pretending to be a conspiracy theorist so that you can sell more Angels and Airwaves albums and secret machine books and t-shirts and movies like on the to the stars media site you are already selling a chasing shadows collectible bundle that includes the book and the t-shirt and the Angels and Airwaves soundtrack and I just want to ask you straight up is you being a UFO [3652.1s → 3692.0s] conspiracy theorist like a Joaquin Phoenix style marketing stunt no no but I get it I get why you would ask that no it’s not and and I totally understand why people would think that that’s why I think over time you know what I’ll tell you this I I let in one journalist that writes for a very big news organization that everyone knows and she was able to meet one of my advisors specifically because he gave the okay so she knows from who and what level that person is and how real the people are that I’m working with and that news story I’m [3692.0s → 3721.2s] hoping will come out here shortly and I think after that news story with a journalist being given access you’ll be able to go holy shit this is real interesting well and by the way follow up and by the way I have a big thing coming out with Rolling Stone here soon and they were denied I went to the advisors and said hey can’t they want to know if they can meet one of you and they said no they don’t care they don’t care if Rolling Stone believes them or not it’s too they’re too small like this one was different because this journalist [3721.2s → 3760.7s] knew one of my advisors personally and she didn’t even know that he was an advisor so I sought her out and I said you’re being given permission so it’s a it’s just it just happened to work out that way well I’m I’m super excited to read that and regardless of what the motivation is it’s a really fun book I will say and and yeah it was fun to read it and it was really amazing to get the chance to talk with you so thank you for that yeah and thanks for being honest I get how hard it is to believe that a guy like me would even get this kind of [3760.7s → 3797.9s] access but I got this kind of access because I spent a very long time proving myself earning the trust and executing and presenting what I thought it all was and being on the money and so they knew that they had a guy that that that that can do things with a voice that they can’t do and then I continued to pull off elevated work you know every time I was given when I was given the book and how it was released and who I’m talking to and all that kind of stuff and how respectful I was about it I think they look at at what I’m doing is as a rare [3797.9s → 3836.1s] opportunity because if they would grab anybody else from Hollywood that is not an academic on this subject that is out just to tell a cool story they wouldn’t do it you know they know that what I’m trying to do is change is change the status quo of what people think of themselves in the world around them and attack it respectfully and tell it with truth and not mislead anybody and not put my own kind of dogma into it and I’ve been very very formal about how I deal with them everything’s a yes sir no sir everything is yeah you know if it’s [3836.1s → 3874.5s] you know and I don’t use names I use rank when I talk to these people so it’s a very formal process for the record I don’t think that it’s a marketing stunt and I think that if it were it would be so very elaborate that I’d just be beyond impressed so I appreciate that no I this is you know on my family is this is all very real so I’m hoping that with things like this the news piece that’s going to be coming out and when the documentary and docu-series when that drops and you see the story and we and we tell it the way it happened and some [3874.5s → 3910.9s] other things I think I think people will kind of go holy shit this is this is something I got to pay attention to I have one final question for you Tom what do you think of the new X-Files not a fan I mean I like the whole I like what it is because it’s it’s it’s a great entertaining show you know but when you see what I’m doing with this project in that subject it’ll be it’ll just be very elevated and it’ll be it’ll be cool and it’ll be real and I won’t need to sensationalize stuff you know when you read the book and that pilot is being [3910.9s → 3945.6s] told how the craft flies I was given that information exactly how it is in the book when you read the information what the craft looks like in the simulator I wasn’t given that when you read the security protocol he had to go through you know where people put bags on their heads and get on the tarmac I was given that at the end of the book when the guy slides a book across the table on the last page of the book that is not my words somebody else’s so people should just be I hope people get excited for the way I’m gonna present [3945.6s → 3987.8s] this stuff when it when it when we do the films thank you so much for coming on this is very fun for me and it was a great book and I like look forward to the other projects the other pieces of this project rather right on thanks guys we’ll talk to you hopefully in the future bye bye so let’s debrief that was very intense it was very intense it went kind of how I was expecting it to go yeah I was worried that he would ramble and it would be boring and it kind of was for parts of it yeah there are certain parts well I just I know that [3987.8s → 4028.4s] he takes this very very seriously which is good but sometimes it’s like a little bit too serious in terms of podcast interview but I think it went well there are good parts of it yeah I think so too do you think he was mad at me at the end he signed off kind of abruptly I don’t think he was mad at you I think that he has dealt with a lot of this stuff over the years of people thinking that he’s totally insane when it’s clear that he’s not totally insane I would say I think at least I mean it’s clear he’s passionate about this very fringy [4028.4s → 4046.7s] subject but he is like an intelligent person who has done a lot of research and like has people skills of some sort you know I don’t think that he’s insane that was gonna be my question is he crazy [4048.6s → 4076.4s] you’ve decided to quit smoking that’s a big step but cravings don’t always make it easy Zonic can help a nicotine pouch that provides fast craving relief offering smoke-free support in the moments that matter on your quit smoking journey with an easy-to-use format that can be used anytime anywhere quitting support that works with your lifestyle ask your pharmacist about Zonic today this product may not be right for you always read and follow the label warning this product contains nicotine nicotine is [4076.4s → 4123.7s] highly addictive only to be used by adults who are trying to quit smoking I don’t think that he’s crazy I also don’t I haven’t done my own research and I don’t think that I don’t think that the conspiracies are I don’t know if I believe it believe what he’s saying about the government covering up UFOs and like putting he’s saying that aliens came to earth they left some technology behind they maybe still are here and that the government has tried to cover it up in the past but now wants people to know about it and they want to [4123.7s → 4161.6s] communicate this through Tom DeLonge yes that’s what he’s saying and also he’s saying that the government and humans have basically reverse engineered alien technology and have developed our own correct I’m not totally clear on that well it was like there’s some technology that comes from the Nazis and some technology that comes from Russia and some from aliens and some from aliens yeah so but I’m not totally sure if like all of it is from aliens or if some of the technology was developed by the Russians and by us on our own right the [4161.6s → 4198.2s] thing that I will say is that the government stuff sounds plausible to me and that the government has secret projects and some of them are more advanced than others the alien stuff is kind of where you lose me in terms of aliens visited or crashed here and like we’re now using their technology which is what happens at the end of this book I find that much less plausible than like the government has several secret projects that have led to people seeing weird things in the sky and these these projects are both secret and funded in a [4198.2s → 4231.7s] weird and potentially problematic way yeah I mean the part where he loses me actually is not in the details of what the story is but when he says that he has a high-level government source who is high-level enough to know about this stuff someone who is lower level and you think that they’re higher level did you meet someone who is messing with you did you come up with all this in a dream or in some kind of delusion where does that scene of him being in the back of a bar [4231.7s → 4266.0s] and being told we found a life form where does that come from yeah I would I would agree entirely with that skepticism in terms of yeah like why are they speaking to him and why are they choosing like Tom DeLonge to convey the story to the masses and that that seems impossible to me maybe we’re just jealous because we’re journalists and he apparently is really good at sourcing also I mean I know he’s been studying this for a very long time but like he put together this 700 page book in like a year maybe and like has all these [4266.0s → 4301.4s] other things I mean well I’m not just get in terms of from when the project was announced and that sort of thing I mean obviously he could have been working on it for longer and maybe we should have asked but I feel like we wouldn’t have gotten a very good answer to that question but in any case I mean I think that he’s been very busy with Blink-182 and like notoriously Blink-182 has not liked him because his attention has not always been focused on the band it’s always been focused on these other sort of like existential type questions [4301.4s → 4331.4s] so I don’t know how much of this work he was doing on the side but I mean within the last several years they put out an album they were touring like he’s put out Angel in Airwaves stuff like he’s a very prolific artist and I find it like this is a 700 page book there are two more coming probably quite soon there’s no timeline right now but I would guess that you know they’re gonna follow faster than you’d think there’s documentary there’s feature films that are like [4331.4s → 4368.1s] fictional films and yeah it’s just like where where’s all this coming from it’s happening very quickly I want to ask Derek about this I want Derek to listen to this interview if we can get Derek to spend an hour listening to this interview I want to know what he thinks yeah is he crazy is he doing a marketing stunt or or what yeah I guess I guess so so when you say right so when you say marketing stunt like I it is a marketing stunt in fact that like this is his shtick now like [4368.1s → 4406.3s] people like Tom DeLonge is a well-known UFO conspiracy theorist and like he yeah I mean people look at this website it looks like it’s like an e-commerce site it’s like shop new members apparel music books forum it’s really slick it looks nothing like any other UFO site it’s like they’ve got Twitter they’ve got Instagram like this is and I think it’s gonna work like I I’m not kidding the book is good it’s a good read it could it could be a bestseller I think and he could you know you could probably make a movie out of it I don’t know if the [4406.3s → 4441.1s] movie would succeed but as a book it’s like a pretty good read for a page turner kind of New York Times bestseller paperback type of book exactly yeah the book is like it’s very it’s it’s not hard to read at all like it as Adrian said it’s a page-turner like you’re not gonna lose the plot we really wanted to read it before this interview and and thankfully we were able to yeah I mean it’s 700 pages and we didn’t have like very much time to read it and like I blew through 450 pages in like three hours today but yeah like it’s not it’s [4441.1s → 4477.6s] not very I would say it’s some functional writing like US shipping on orders over a hundred dollars like sign up to subscribe to our newsletter yeah yeah I don’t know it’s a I mean it’s like a media company it is it is yeah it’s that it’s by it’s definitely his next act I mean he he has angels on air waves going in like I mean that’s kind of part of this but this isn’t this is thing now he left blink-182 to do this like he’s no longer in blink-182 right they replaced him with a member of Alkaline Trio yeah Matt Skiba I think I [4477.6s → 4522.4s] believe but yes like he gave up the most popular thing he’s ever done to do this right at the same time blink-182 has peaked that is true and a smart person who didn’t want to peak when they were 40 would be thinking about what to do next pivot yeah I don’t know if pivots the right word just like you know keep keep growing keep doing new things keep learning keep making an impact on the world I don’t know I would say before we talked to him I was like pretty convinced that this was like a Joaquin Phoenix like commitment to pretending to [4522.4s → 4559.7s] be a conspiracy theorist in order to like sell this whole project which I thought was a savvy move after talking to him it was very convincing to me the idea of Tom DeLonge as a true UFO conspiracy theorist like in the Info Wars National Enquirer Weekly World News vein vein yeah although he is weirdly pro-government which yeah that’s I kind of I really like that and I guess it’s maybe just because like they have helped him out it’s comforting yeah it’s it’s uh it makes him seem a little bit more sane to me yeah that like yeah he’s he’s [4559.7s → 4602.5s] not like a 9-11 truth or etc it’s kind of he’s not like a truth or about every single thing it’s this one’s very specific you know thing it’s just one very specific aspect of conspiracy theory that he’s interested in I just noticed in on this website in the latest tweet section the to the stars Twitter account to the Stars Inc is tweeting with Ava Blinky 182 It’s weird to me to think about these people who are blink 182 fans and then they’re like Tom Delonge’s going to UFO town All right. Yeah, I don’t really know who’s like [4602.5s → 4637.4s] I really am curious like who is signing up to like get a ticket on the Tom Delonge UFO train It’s very in terms of his like current his fan base like because you know You don’t like blink 182 for its depth and like when they start delving into slightly more Adult sounding stuff like it didn’t it wasn’t received very well I mean some people still very much liked it, but there’s a difference between you know like self titled and neighborhoods era blink 182 where they’re kind of talking about like [4638.3s → 4681.3s] Grown-up things like normal grown-up things like love and like not really knowing what you’re doing and being like, yeah, exactly and You know Conspiracy theories like I don’t know. I think that his new fan base are people who are truthers well, it’s a weird fan base though, because His approach is at odds with The way these people think like the pro-government angle is weird and the area 51 thing is like kind of out of Fashion and so he’s if he’s going for the conspiracy theory crowd I’m not sure. He’s like really hit the right tone [4682.2s → 4691.2s] Yeah, I mean really interesting to see if they are into it Yeah, have you talked to a single person yet who you told I’m reading this book and they like didn’t start laughing [4693.2s → 4700.2s] No, but to be fair I did kind of say like Lol, I’m reading a 700 page book by Tom DeLonge about aliens [4700.3s → 4738.6s] Yeah, I mean I have to and that’s because that’s sort of like the headline like right? I’m reading this book by Blink 182’s lead singer about aliens And then the subtext is like this subhead. It is like actually it’s kind of good and not that crazy and that sort of comes later, I guess and Yeah, I don’t know I don’t know I Don’t know who’s gonna like walk in the store and pick it up It may be like people were really into Tom Clancy novels or something Yeah, I feel like that’s maybe the audience here is like people like it people at the airport Yeah, it has a really good cover like if the cover looks really [4740.5s → 4776.4s] Best-seller ready like giant words on it And then there’s a secret on the inside cover, yeah Should we tell them the secret? No. Yes. No. No. No, I Liked it. I just discovered today Also, I kind of wanted to ask him about this But I did not because I felt like it might have gotten a very long answer and it just wanted a very quick answer to it These interstitial sections that he does the font changes in the book and I I mean is it not just a signal that it’s an interlude it might be I mean, that’s probably what it is [4778.7s → 4798.2s] Wait Just was he the lead singer in blink-182 or was he good? So mark hoppus and Tom DeLonge like Trade it off, but he’s the lead singer of the songs that you like probably are most Sounds like so I think what’s my age again is Mark Hoppus [4799.4s → 4804.5s] What’s but all the small things? Yeah, all the small things is definitely Tom DeLonge [4811.6s → 4834.9s] Oh Oh my god, oh my god Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god Oh my god, this is such a visceral thing to listen to yeah This is Mark Hoppus, yeah and I don’t think that I [4836.1s → 4893.2s] Don’t think Tom DeLonge sings in this song But this is he’s very famous for his voice is very famous in this song, which is often later blink-182 album This is Mark Hoppus and then when it when the chorus cuts in everyone makes fun of his voice is so whiny Like don’t have to listen to this Oh Yeah, so that’s Tom DeLonge [4894.6s → 4920.1s] And there’s there are songs where he sounds a little bit less whiny But he generally sounds something like that And he still sounds like that an angel in airwaves like in this latest EP sounds exactly like that, too He was super nice, he was great and I I was bummed I didn’t start recording for the beginning When we first got on the Skype call cuz he was like kind of funny That was like the only time that he was really bantery. It was in the beginning [4920.2s → 4954.4s] Yeah, when you were when we said that he was your celebrity look-alike. Yeah, you didn’t get that I Sorry, did you get it? I never recorded our end of it But no, I didn’t I just wasn’t quick enough on the dry. I was just so excited to talk to Tom DeLonge Yeah at the end of all this we weren’t sure what to think Jason and I decided we needed the opinion of motherboard editor-in-chief Derek Mead and senior supervising producer Chris O’Coin who are both conspiracy theory enthusiasts a [4954.9s → 4967.2s] Few days after the interview with Tom we grabbed Derek and Chris and forced them into a room in the basement of vice noted UFO Enthusiast Christopher O’Coin. I saw UFO [4967.7s → 5011.4s] You can read about it on motherboard. The articles about four years old. Can you summarize it for us? Yeah, I saw it at Devil’s Tower, which is the location of the infamous UFO encounter from close encounters of the third kind I was a child. So my Vision is not to be trusted and it was probably a bird that was reflecting the Sun but it looked like a silver shaped thing Flying past Devil’s Tower. It did not play the song from the movie Which for the listeners do do do do do? The towns yeah, and then Richard Dreyfuss is like I was right fuck you anyway [5013.1s → 5026.0s] So you guys listen to part of our interview with Tom DeLonge, right? We also have editor-in-chief Derek mean with us. We should mention Just like it’s just laughing like won’t stop laughing [5029.3s → 5053.0s] So, when did we do this interview Jason on Friday we do this interview on Friday, so We wanted to ask Derek and Chris their opinion of what is going on with this UFO project that Tom DeLonge is doing because Jason and I don’t have as deep a familiarity with Ufology and the types of people who are enthusiastic about it and Derek and Chris do [5053.5s → 5080.6s] Is that fair? Yes, I am highly interested in the conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists because it’s a reminder that puppet strings are being pulled Around us at all times and sometimes the rail and sometimes they’re perceived. Yeah, I felt like actually in the last In our debriefing after we did the interview I felt like maybe we came across as being too Skeptical no, no, no like too skeptical of the skeptics [5082.1s → 5100.0s] Skeptical Tom you obviously swallowing the narrative Drinking the Kool-Aid. Yeah drinking the I’m saying like I I don’t not believe that the government Doesn’t have the willpower and ability to pull the wool over the American people’s eyes. I want to be on record saying [5101.3s → 5111.2s] It’s like I’m not rejecting the whole premise. I’m just you know, so I’m just Yeah, so So so yeah [5113.9s → 5121.8s] Like we are not having a knee-jerk reaction like oh if someone’s talking about UFOs, they must be a crazy pants person No, I mean there’s aliens somewhere [5123.1s → 5151.1s] There’s aliens somewhere. I think what’s interesting is he has like a couple different threads that he weaves together that are Very strange what he has is like area 51 obsession, which I think you know is like kind of Not the most realistic of conspiracy theories because like area 51 like it used to be no one knew what it was I kind of wouldn’t acknowledge it and then the 90s was forced to and now we know that like, you know [5151.1s → 5178.1s] People did tons of secret military testing there and like Lockheed Martin and Boeing like show-off planes that they developed there and whatnot Yeah, it was it was in fucking it was in zero dark 30 and that movie was written by the fucking CIA Sort of that’s yeah So like for them to have an alien that was hidden at area 51 is very like I just feel Like we would have found that out by now There’s already like the reason that area 51 was released because there’s a whistleblower lawsuit over like labor law there [5178.3s → 5198.5s] Which is like if they’re fucking aliens there someone would have leaked it if they’re complaining about like their work conditions there and having a Lawsuit over it someone would have leaked that there’s an alien unless they’re all executed which brings us to the next conspiracy Which I think is very interesting and this one actually it really stands out to me is that he is arguing there Basically, the government is putting out [5199.7s → 5217.1s] knowledge and like seeding alien Conspiracies in the popular consciousness and then knocking them down because they’re trying to open us up to the idea of aliens being But it would be like so real that would blow all of our minds, which is like some X-Files type shit But also very very fast [5217.1s → 5240.3s] It’s very layered and I think also what? Complicates his theory is that he also believes that there was a period when the government wasn’t as coordinated about how it was gonna handle this Information campaign. So in the beginning they maybe staged some fake alien objections and then and Then later they decided that was the wrong tack and they took a different tack. Well [5241.7s → 5248.9s] Did you do any of you read area 51 an uncensored history of America’s top-secret military base by Annie Jacobson [5250.9s → 5268.3s] It wasn’t like it wasn’t like a like a Crag pot like dollar store like check out book. It was like a NPR darling 1495 Yeah, it’s like a full price to go get it at Barnes & Noble or whatever the purveyors of truth [5272.9s → 5285.3s] No, but it was like a legit book but with like a lot of research to it in it She discussed the Roswell crash and the Roswell crash I’m not gonna do this justice and the audience will probably get pissed off [5285.3s → 5308.3s] But the essential argument was it that in the in the race between the Soviets and the United States? They we were developing like saucer technology essentially to like scare each other and that the the Roswell crash was a Soviet craft with a Child that they had done surgery to this. This is like in the book and This is like accepted [5310.1s → 5314.3s] Surgery on a child so we would think it was an alien to make it look like an alien and then she’s like and we [5314.3s → 5345.3s] Did it we did it back? Like we did surgeries on children I mean, there’s also the what is it? There’s all those rumors of the Soviet super children that had like psychokinesis that could like control Like events on other parts of the planet I’ve never heard that like is basically like the scanners thing where they could control Like basically move things and control things with their minds nice and I predict the future It’s all kinds of weird shit to have in the 50s And this is where I think he gets into a very interesting point is like I love [5346.1s → 5368.4s] when conspiracy theorists are very they’re incredibly excellent at identifying like memes and like classical term like mimetics of like Basically ideas that get seeded into society and then stick there and wondering why they’re there Like UFOs are very interesting thing because naturally we’d be curious to find aliens and also there’s all kinds of weird shit that people see All the time because people are notoriously bad at seeing things [5368.7s → 5387.7s] but when this ends up being like these whole elaborate stories like this Roswell thing that become part part of our discourse and our psyche and Like it’s a touchstone whether it’s real or not At some point it loses all meaning whether it is even real and because now we’ve based that as part of our knowledge So if you had no idea that aliens even could fly spaceships, you would never think about it And if you saw one you probably lose your shit [5387.7s → 5398.0s] Yeah, but now like over time when you’re like, well, it’s accepted that odds are aliens are out there somewhere Yeah, I was fucking maybe anything crash back then it could be possible It could be real if it ends up happening someday [5398.0s → 5419.5s] You would never actually know or you wouldn’t have be a shocked by it, right? But then again if his argument is and what you went what you were talking about earlier I read the back the the jacket of this book and it’s multiple titles and all this text that’s on it And I still don’t really know and this is kind of the hallmark of like conspiracy ish talk. It’s like well, wait [5419.5s → 5433.1s] What is it about? Yeah but also If you’re arguing that about aliens and he’s arguing that about aliens that it’s to prepare us for it and not be mentally shocked by It then how come like most movies are aliens like destroying humanity and fucking ripping people apart [5437.4s → 5467.4s] There’s an actual real-life precedent for which we’re going through right now It’s coming up again, which is the the hidden the 14 papers or whatever from the 9-11 Commission Oh Yeah, like details like 28 pages 28. Yes It’s a detailing, you know, like basically support from Saudi officials for you know, the 9-11 attackers It’s like yeah, how did like dudes were uneducated who didn’t have passed or like, you know didn’t have proper documentation [5467.4s → 5490.9s] How do they end up like moving to San Diego and living a house? I’m going to flight school like they clearly had people help and there’s details that but it’s something that everyone rejected Like right when you know right after 9-11 happened because there are other things to focus on but now it’s coming back and it’s something That’s been seeded by conspiracy theorists in and out different ways For so long because it was there that now when people are talking about it, you can talk about it more rationally now [5491.9s → 5518.7s] Yeah, all of this is being people being puppet masters who are saying that this was the government was planning to like break it Softly to us because that’s fucking crazy Like in the sense of the government can go to hell if they’re doing but it’s interesting because I love conspiracy There’s being able to identify these patterns before other people do. Yeah, it’s interesting that they’re doing that though But are they doing a disservice to the public and that you know, we have been trained to think okay [5518.7s → 5549.5s] this is maybe plausible and then it comes out like you’re trained to think that it’s conspiracy theory nonsense and then it comes out and like that’d be a huge story if it had come out of the blue, but since we’ve been kind of like Right. The water has been turned up really slowly and we’re like in the pot like we don’t care Some people might be like, yeah I remember hearing that but they don’t remember the moment when it crossed from being conspiracy theory and Reality Terms of like 9-eleven truth that also is not like [5550.6s → 5562.9s] First of all, you’re gonna have the truthers on your ass or even bring this shit up But I think in terms of 9-eleven truth like the Saudis like having something to do with it I feel like most people are just like I don’t know. I don’t I think [5564.5s → 5582.3s] People should care and they might but they won’t care the way that people have been arguing 9-eleven truth about like it being an inside Job, and yada yada. Yada. Well, here’s the thing. It’s not I’m not Yeah, I don’t get derailed by talking about 9-eleven because there’s a lot of fun back there and we’re talking podcasts Yeah, we’re not gonna ever be able to do any of that justice [5582.3s → 5591.8s] But the reason I bring us to this is because he was saying that this book is historical fiction, right? So it’s based on real events But it’s something that is meant to be [5592.0s → 5610.9s] You know more entertaining because you’re able to take creative license in the storytelling of connecting those exactly, right? So what I don’t get and this is where things get real loosey-goosey for me is you take something It’s already conspiratorial and already like it’s very difficult to discern fact from fiction and now we’re adding an explicit layer of fiction on top [5610.9s → 5625.1s] Of that you start to wonder where is where is actually the truth in here? Because you not only have like this idea that the truth is that there’s a government conspiracy to spread Mistruths and lies, but then you’re also building something on top of it [5625.1s → 5643.3s] And I don’t understand like you guys reading this book like where can you even tell the line between what’s real? Yeah, well, I mean, unfortunately, I wasn’t like intimately familiar with all the actual historical stuff that’s in here so I wasn’t able to say like, oh, I know this is real, but this is Conspiracy like it’s are you saying that this interview is means that you’re a puppet for the government? Yes. I mean [5645.4s → 5681.7s] But yeah, I think you’re totally right like he’s drawing on both the agreed-upon US history book version of history and the Conspiracy theory version of history but I think part of the problem with me and conspiracy theories in general is that there are lots of different ones and And he’s coming forward and saying he has the definitive account and he has sources in the Pentagon and he’s got the explanation for everything and it’s this It’s this combination of government cover-up and actually aliens and then Soviet Tom has sources in the Pentagon [5683.8s → 5708.9s] When I was we were yeah I have people sources like a text that are high level and they asked him if aliens exist and they’ll know Okay, they’ll say something and yeah joke or may not like it’s not like there’s a lot of fuck of people the Pentagon I’m just gonna say Not to discredit because I don’t know what he’s doing I’m just saying that in general that we should be you should always be skeptical I do think that his message of saying like he wants to inspire people to be curious. It’s very good [5709.6s → 5721.5s] Because I think that everything behind every like insane truth or lie is probably something that I probably didn’t say Everyone behind like every insane story. There’s probably a kernel of truth including this one [5722.9s → 5744.5s] It’s important that but when he’s saying like, oh, yeah the 70s UFOs flew over a missile facility and actually turn them on like there’s been incidents where like Recorded incidents where like shit like that happened. We’re like someone I got a false alarm. There’s a Russian guy He’ll save the world from exploding because he didn’t decide to fire a nuclear missile And when a radar told him that the US had already fired an ICBM at Russia [5744.9s → 5769.5s] Like shit like that happens and the Battle of Los Angeles when they were shooting at UFOs and I figure what year it was Yes, exactly like this shit happens, but it’s usually has a fairly like Occam’s razor type of explanation for it But I think the broader message here that he makes is sent is more sound than I anticipated Which is that there is so many like messaging games at play that as soon as you build out this like ecosystem of conspiracy [5769.5s → 5787.3s] Theories, you know that the government we know the government is taking advantage of that where they can Yeah, cuz the craziest conspiracies of all is the ones that are in front of your face Which is what I always said about 9-11 truth is I was like, they’re literally doing crazy shit in the open Yeah, then that’s like gonna ruin your life and everyone around you is life [5788.3s → 5826.7s] About things like I mean, what like what are you see? Like what sorts of things are you talking about? Like Patriot Act, it’s such. Yeah I mean every everything that happened post 9-11 in the open the wars the baby, you know things that Have affected like every everybody knows people affected by the wars. Everybody’s been affected by the wars in indirectly or directly and I mean, that’s what I you know Hundreds of billions of dollars in stimulus that comes out of that. Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s just like that was my I mean Okay, well so one of my main questions was whether This is like some kind of [5828.2s → 5859.6s] elaborate marketing ploy like whether You know, like I was saying in one of the other Segments we recorded that if you go on the site, it’s all very monetized it’s like you can buy a bundle of a t-shirt with the book with the soundtrack all together and it’s like Tell them what Sam called it. Oh, yes. We were wondering if it’s I don’t know. I can’t say If it’s a long con I [5863.2s → 5896.3s] Mean and also I was listening to coast to coast last night for the first time and you sign up For a membership and it’s $6.95 am o n t han d i t^{'} s l ik e$ 59.95 per year and all this stuff and then Alex Jones today I was watching Billy Corgan Like spew word vomit on Alex Jones Billy Corgan horrible It’s on anyway And it’s like the show it cuts every 60 seconds to an ad for one of InfoWars life’s like vitamin supplements Yeah, he sells DNA force. Yeah is one of them [5897.7s → 5937.1s] This whole like it kind of makes me I mean it kind of makes me like wonder about the purity of these theorist theory Conspiracy theory peddlers, that’s the thing about that Ties this at every turn. Well, it’s ironic to me I thought the ironic thing about you know Alex Jones is obviously like one of the biggest conspiracy theory peddlers and and honestly like we used to download his movies like in the early 2000s and watch them and just go whoa, and it’s hilarious to see what he’s turned into which is just like a shill for like merchandise and garbage and like subscriber fees and then also supporting a [5937.4s → 5962.7s] An elite dude like Donald Trump like that’s the InfoWars candidate for president is Donald Trump, right? I mean who’s always in Alex Jones is always like the elites the elites are coming for you Take this rich real estate guy who fucking like Who fucks over people left right and center and they’re like, this is the InfoWars Canada Like that’s it’s conspiracy theories kind of eating itself is what you’re saying. Like yeah Well, I mean if you’re if you’re a skeptic and skepticism is your whole thing [5962.7s → 5986.7s] Like, how do you not be skeptical when your main news source is feeding you ads for supplements every six? Well, here’s the thing This is the thing that I get real hot and bothered about and like we should we should tie in a blood pressure meter To this podcast because like I just get a real hot or on the call right now Like I’m getting steamed up Because here’s the thing teaching people to be skeptical is unbelievably important, especially today when truth is as fluid as it is [5987.5s → 5996.6s] But the problem is so many people that are looking conspiracy theories You know, that’s too broad a generalization but many people that are into conspiracy theories [5997.3s → 6003.2s] Are looking for answers for something where they can feel like they’re free of their own decision-making, right? [6003.2s → 6028.7s] Like it’s not my problem. Someone else is controlling this, right? That’s one of the allures of conspiracies It’s the same thing is like looking for anyone who’s trying to free up their personal life and invest it in something That’s out of their control, you know Could be you know religious or spiritualism or whatever. So you’re buying that see if Alex Jones is saying fuck these guys They’re the ones who are holding you down We are bringing you solutions That’s like incredibly powerful messaging for you, which is what also works for Trump [6028.7s → 6046.7s] Fuck the other guys. I’m the one who’s gonna save you from being beat down, but it’s empty It’s like so it’s entirely I’m saying they’re preying on and the real problem here is that they’re actual conspiracies that are out there They’re incredibly blatant are right in front of our faces, but no one’s able to do anything about it The perfect example of this is the housing crisis and you have a bunch of idiots colluding together [6047.2s → 6074.1s] To basically hustle as much money as they can and then blew up America blew up the world economy and none of they got any trouble whatsoever and none of that no everyone’s forgotten about that and moved on and basically left a permanent gap in wages and wealth for all of America between middle-class and poor and the wealthy and that’s an actual conspiracy that actual is wrongdoing we Actually know things are horrible But it’s hard to get riled up about that because it’s a very like specific problem that you can’t deal with [6074.3s → 6097.2s] But to say that the CIA is controlling aliens and that they’re holding us down with like psyops that are like trying to confuse America that’s something that you can be Angry about without actually be able to take any action because there’s no way of proving it It’s giving you a search It’s like a dog chasing after a car and then when it gets to the car doesn’t know what to do and then bite it but I’m wondering if Tom DeLonge is gonna make it in this world because [6098.4s → 6132.5s] He’s no his no. He’s not he’s not clear enough you you Conspiracy theory is about being like incredibly blunt and this looking at this book I’m like, I don’t know if there was just a if it was like it was like aliens There was a gray if there is the cover was a face of a gray Yeah, and it said like they’re coming to kill you or something or like that. Oh, yeah, they exist. Yeah, that’ll be He’s also got this like pro-government bent that I feel like is gonna turn people off. Yeah, I think he also is trying He’s not trying too hard [6132.5s → 6157.8s] But he ends up putting too much effort into being credible succeed because he says he has so much nuance and what he was saying like his interview so much is like this happened this kind of happened this person says a thing and they can’t actually say it explicitly and Said as many pronouns as I just did just like this and that you’re not so sure he’s talking about but he’s hedging because he Doesn’t want to say something that he can’t prove which kudos to him for that. But I think in terms of like opening [6158.5s → 6185.8s] People’s eyes up and like trying to get them to go crazy, you know, like really buy into this I think it’s gonna be difficult because it doesn’t have that like passionate thing that you get like angry about, you know That’s what people want. They want to get pissed off at something and you also Yeah, and you have to constantly be telling people that you’re telling the truth but on the cover of his book right away a novel based on actual events and then from the imagination of Right away people are like it’s not true. It’s not real [6185.8s → 6209.1s] Yeah, it’s like it’s a little bit Of a mixed like thing. It’s kind of hard to follow everything. He’s doing That audience. I mean, it’s not you know, I think like the book is a good book It’s a page-turner the guy he got to help him write it. I think knows what he’s doing um, it’s like exactly the kind of book that I normally wouldn’t like but I kind of enjoyed it by the end, but [6211.0s → 6217.3s] He’s also trying to say like I’m doing this is the first of three books. It’s supposed to be a trilogy [6219.0s → 6230.2s] Yeah, all the branding is kind of confusing it’s like secret machines is the project which includes like documentaries and both documentaries and fictional films like [6231.5s → 6262.5s] Novels, there’s gonna be a nonfiction book, too Okay Now wait a minute is the point of this Peter Lavenda author of unholy alliance and the secret machines Nonfiction series, okay, there’s a fiction series and a nonfiction series, but this is like quasi fiction this is the point of a fiction and nonfiction and Documentary and narrative and all of that and mix it into a jumble to where it becomes like this Experiment that’s indistinguishable and that’s the whole point because if that’s the idea that’s kind of brilliant [6263.8s → 6271.4s] like if that’s the con if the con is like Truth not true. This is a documentary. This is in there and then but that is just [6272.6s → 6285.3s] I mean, that’s interesting the way he pitches it is that then the fiction stuff is supposed to be in an entree It’s supposed to help people like warm up to the idea and then the nonfiction stuff is supposed to like actually lay out [6285.3s → 6311.7s] What’s going on? I? wonder if maybe he thinks about it as like some kind of Multi-level like art exhibit that takes over the entire moment and like a bottom is fiction The top is nonfiction by the time you get through to the end you have like You have like an experience of truth So yeah he kind of describes it as He’s trying to like make sure that he can he’s being the government agent in the book and that he’s opening he’s like slowly Introducing people to it so they don’t get overwhelmed [6313.2s → 6322.3s] Okay, I didn’t listen to the interview it should be made abundantly clear at this point, but uh, I didn’t have time it’s very busy day, but So sorry, but I’m just going off of of [6323.9s → 6352.1s] What’s in front of us I Forgot the point. I think it’s admirable because people these days are not good at discerning truth often they don’t care if it’s true or not because they want to have the support down confirmation bias and I think that having him basically say like I’m gonna give people a spoonful of sugar with their medicine so they can learn how the country falls down Yeah, but [6354.2s → 6365.8s] But I think it’s a I think it’s a valuable point But I think it’s also a bad idea because it’s and they’re being too confusing And if you’re already going into a world that is like hard to tell fact for fiction [6365.9s → 6375.5s] The the best thing that you can do here is is still things down in a very clear points, right? There’s a UFO website that has all documents on it every UFO document the government’s ever released [6375.5s → 6387.8s] It’s over a million pages of documents, right? Like no one’s ever gonna read that nonsense, but that’s where you’re gonna find what’s actually happened like a good starting point Yeah, have you guys seen the movie mirage man? Sorry to interrupt. Okay, then we won’t talk about it [6387.8s → 6417.5s] Do you agree with his premise though that people like? They need this fictional narrative to like be drawn into it in terms of he’s saying that the basically those million Documents are too boring And you I guess he doesn’t think he can distill them into like a compelling narrative Yeah Yeah, people need some kind of hand-holding I think that saying they need fiction is maybe not but yeah But at the same time there’s already been a lot of fiction about [6418.7s → 6434.8s] Aliens and government conspiracies. It’s not like that. That idea is gonna be totally 100% new to anyone. Yeah Already familiar with that how that would function we haven’t really talked about the fact that this is like Tom DeLonge of Blink-182 [6437.1s → 6451.2s] This is what I Cannot for the life of me figure out what inspired him to do this because not only is he the member of two highly successful bands but well But also like [6451.2s → 6457.4s] This is such a crowded like market for lack of a better word to get into like why would you decide to write the like? [6458.7s → 6485.8s] 14,000 Similar stories, so he does he has a track record He’s been into this stuff. I think it’s documented. He’s been into this stuff ever since he’s been giving interviews He also launched a project before Called strange times that was a website for documenting UFO stuff that one didn’t really get off the ground I think it still exists as a Facebook page. Also aliens exist to this seminal Blink-182 song [6489.0s → 6516.7s] He’s no longer a member of Blink-182 now, that’s right by the guy from alkaline trio, right? Yeah How many of you have seen Blink-182 in concert? I have seen them once at a festival for free I saw them like three or four times I Remember them being pretty good, you know, I did Dropkick Murphy’s at Warped Tour in Sacramento one time though sick [6519.5s → 6525.4s] How all the dudes for like Irish pom-poms would show up at a festival and immediately have these 20-foot high flags [6525.4s → 6538.6s] They’d be waving and I’m like, where did you how do you sneak that in? Like it’s these huge flags would appear only for those bands. Now. That is what I need Aliens are out there. But like I need to figure out I think the label gives them out probably like to all these dudes [6543.8s → 6568.8s] Banners all of a sudden just Irish. Yeah, only for an Irish band like dropkick movies and flogging Molly always had that Ban it crowds and then the banner I think they were There whatever the banner crowds with banners I haven’t seen that Didn’t go do an interview Yeah [6570.6s → 6602.5s] Okay, so to close I think the question we wanted to Make for this podcast is whether is like is Tom DeLonge serious about this UFO stuff I think he is genuine and earnest Yeah in his approach Absolutely. He’s been dumping money and time into this for years ever since that song like he you’ve seen him like talking about Pro from what I can tell based on the limited like news that I’ve seen he did he decided not to do blank 182 so he could focus on this correct [6602.5s → 6631.6s] He really does seem to believe this is the most important thing he will ever do. I mean that’s off to him That’s admirable. You know what? I mean? Like He’s something very genuine and I am impressed at the effort that he’s putting because he definitely is not doing this As some fly-by-night quick get-rich-quick scheme off the alien millions out there No, I’d be like the worst get-rich-quick scheme ever. So you don’t think it’s at the long con Only a con in so far as like he he wants he believes he’s an important voice for this [6631.6s → 6652.4s] Like that’s all it’s an ego cotton if anything, but what’s an ego? No, but I mean like he’s not so easy to fall into the money the money aspect of him bundling It is just the way shit sold nowadays especially if you have like if you’re a musician like every band does like that package bullshit where it’s like at the record in the t-shirt and then I Don’t if they have a book [6656.6s → 6663.7s] Yeah, no, I think it’s genuine and it’s earnest but I I don’t know it’s I don’t know if it’s gonna be what [6664.2s → 6672.1s] Is the blockbuster that opens everyone dies? All right. Well, let’s check in one year from now and Jason and I will read the second 700 page book in the secret [6672.9s → 6705.4s] Come on a year. Is that the release schedule? You know what? I’m not sure it could be like Star Wars where it’s like one fiction than one non-fiction, you know All right, I mean not that fiction is not fiction Sorry, okay I Said a lot of things here today that I am comfortable saying but [6706.0s → 6729.1s] For you guys and all the listeners out there. Should I die in the next year before the next book comes out? Just investigate it. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. What is one year from today? We’re looking into some sort of mysterious Disappearance of Tom DeLonge, then we’ll know it’s true They can simulate all kinds of things with radio I think they will become the mission of radio motherboard to investigate what happens to Tom DeLonge if anything does happen to him [6729.1s → 6738.2s] Which I really hope not because he’s a super nice. Yeah, it’s gonna be so fucked up. We have our eyes on you From our [6739.8s → 6749.2s] Feel like you’ve been hit with the men in black flash thing. Yeah all the time me too. Thank you editor-in-chief Derek mean thank you And thank you Chris a coin. Thanks [6755.3s → 6762.7s] And now it’s time for you dear listener to make your own judgment email us at letters at motherboard TV and tell us what you think [6767.5s → 6804.4s] That music which you also heard at the top of the podcast is overload by angels and airwaves Thank you to Tom DeLonge, thanks to the large cast of this extra-long podcast and thanks to our editor Mark Liam Bruni and a special thanks to you the listener Subscribe, please rate us on iTunes and tweet about the show if you liked it. The truth is out there I

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Radio Motherboard (Vice) — “The DeLonge Con”: Tom DeLonge interview (29 April 2016)

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