House Oversight UAP Hearing — full transcript (July 26, 2023)
Event: Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs hearing, “Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena: Implications on National Security, Public Safety, and Government Transparency.” Witnesses: David Grusch, Cmdr. David Fravor (USN, ret.), Lt. Ryan Graves. Date: 2023-07-26. Source: official video, House Oversight Committee (GOP Oversight YouTube, KQ7Dw-739VY), 2:34:35. Extraction: youtube_transcript.py (auto-generated captions; no speaker labels — questioner/witness turns must be inferred from context; auto-caption spelling errors present), captured 2026-06-03. Verbatim auto-transcript. Analysis: july-2023-house-hearing, grusch-career-and-claims.
[00:04:37.340] sorry about that yeah [00:18:02.360] the subcommittee hearing on unidentified [00:18:05.100] anomalous phenomena or uaps will come to [00:18:08.520] order welcome everyone without objection [00:18:11.400] the chair May declare a recess at any [00:18:13.799] time additionally without objection the [00:18:16.080] following members are waived onto the [00:18:17.940] subcommittee for the purpose of [00:18:19.620] participating in today’s hearing Mr [00:18:21.660] burchard of Tennessee Miss Luna Florida [00:18:24.360] Mr getza Florida Mr Burleson of Missouri [00:18:27.120] Mrs ocasio-cortez in New York and Mr [00:18:30.120] ogles of Tennessee without objection so [00:18:33.539] ordered for today’s subcommittee hearing [00:18:35.880] both the chair and ranking member will [00:18:38.220] have 10 minutes for opening remarks we [00:18:40.799] may both be giving some of those minutes [00:18:42.799] to other members of our party I’m now [00:18:45.660] going to recognize myself for 10 minutes [00:18:48.299] I’m actually going to try to get out of [00:18:50.220] here in about four and then we’ll give [00:18:51.900] it to some of my friends over here good [00:18:54.419] morning and welcome to the mostly [00:18:56.039] exciting the most exciting subcommittee [00:18:58.200] in Congress this week the subcommittee [00:19:00.299] on National Security of the board in [00:19:01.799] foreign affairs for discussion of [00:19:04.580] unidentified anomalous phenomenon I’d [00:19:07.140] like to thank the brave military [00:19:08.520] Protestant Personnel such as wit such as [00:19:12.120] the Witnesses on the panel today for [00:19:14.160] sharing their stories on how they have [00:19:16.080] engaged uaps which has brought attention [00:19:18.059] to this matter [00:19:19.320] curiosity and speculation from all walks [00:19:22.020] of life have generated interest in [00:19:24.059] studying what uaps are and what threats [00:19:27.299] they they may pose I will say that when [00:19:29.820] I was younger in school I read a book a [00:19:32.780] 1966 book called flying saucers serious [00:19:36.299] business and for a while when I was a [00:19:38.580] little bit younger I thought it was the [00:19:39.900] most important issue out there uh [00:19:43.080] the lack of a transparency regarding [00:19:45.539] uaps which was one of the [00:19:47.840] themes of that book [00:19:50.940] um [00:19:51.960] uh [00:19:54.360] um [00:19:55.980] uh [00:19:57.360] in any event it’s led to interest in [00:19:59.820] studying what uaps are and what threats [00:20:01.799] they pose [00:20:03.020] the lack of transparency regarding uaps [00:20:06.240] has fueled wild speculation and debate [00:20:08.400] for decades eroding public trust in the [00:20:10.440] very institutions that are meant to [00:20:12.480] serve and protect them as is evidenced [00:20:14.460] by the large number of people we have [00:20:15.900] here I also want to point out in 1966 [00:20:18.840] President Gerald Ford claimed to have [00:20:21.299] seen a UFO in 1969 in Georgia Jimmy [00:20:25.679] Carter claimed to have seen a UFO so [00:20:28.860] this has led Congress to establish [00:20:30.900] entities to examine uaps the National [00:20:33.419] Defense authorization Act of 2022 [00:20:36.320] established the all-domain anomaly [00:20:39.059] resolution officer aarro to conduct or [00:20:42.900] to coordinate efforts across the [00:20:44.340] Department of Defense and other federal [00:20:45.660] agents federal agencies to detect [00:20:48.480] identify and investigate uaps however [00:20:51.299] aaro’s budget remains classified [00:20:53.600] prohibiting meaningful oversight from [00:20:57.000] Congress in addition to aro’s efforts [00:20:59.640] Nassau is leading an independent study [00:21:02.100] and uaps to identify how UAP that is [00:21:05.400] gathered from both civilian and [00:21:07.320] government entities that can be analyzed [00:21:10.679] to shed light on the topic however [00:21:12.179] despite these offices being established [00:21:15.000] their lives of pressing demand for [00:21:16.860] government transparency and [00:21:18.780] accountability that cannot be overlooked [00:21:20.760] and that’s been a problem it’s been [00:21:22.020] around for 50 years the Biden [00:21:24.299] Administration handling of the Chinese [00:21:25.799] spy balloon that violated U.S airport [00:21:28.080] space is one example how the government [00:21:30.539] is not prepared for these the Biden [00:21:33.179] administration’s description of events [00:21:34.980] has shown that the government continues [00:21:37.380] not to be forthright between the Chinese [00:21:39.960] balloon being shot down in two uaps [00:21:42.179] subsequently shot down following the [00:21:44.280] event earlier this year the U.S [00:21:45.840] government spent one and a half million [00:21:47.400] dollars in taxpayer dollars on missiles [00:21:49.500] yet we have seen little Clarity from the [00:21:51.480] Biden Administration [00:21:53.100] we must demand transparency from the [00:21:55.200] Department of Defense our intelligent [00:21:56.580] community and our defense industry on [00:21:58.559] the UAP work we’re going to ask some [00:22:00.480] questions about that today Congress [00:22:02.460] recognizes the subject of uaps as [00:22:04.620] multifaceted and requires a careful [00:22:07.080] data-driven approach [00:22:08.760] today we’ll see Clarity from these [00:22:10.500] Witnesses testimonies or we’ll see [00:22:12.720] clarity as to what can be done to [00:22:14.820] improve reporting for military and [00:22:17.039] civilians and remain committed to [00:22:18.840] objective inquiry Congress should work [00:22:21.480] to ensure that knowledge is not driven [00:22:23.940] by fear today we are not just obeying [00:22:27.059] the existence of UAP as we are [00:22:28.500] deliberating on the principles that [00:22:29.820] Define our Republic which is a [00:22:31.559] commitment to transparency and [00:22:33.120] accountability I look forward to hearing [00:22:35.100] from our Witnesses today [00:22:36.840] about ways we can improve government [00:22:38.520] efficiency and openness when it comes to [00:22:41.039] uaps I thank each of you for your [00:22:43.080] presence here today and for your [00:22:44.640] dedication to safeguarding the interest [00:22:46.140] of the American people I look forward to [00:22:48.299] your testimony and I’m going to turn it [00:22:50.159] over for two and a half or three minutes [00:22:51.720] to representative Richard from Tennessee [00:22:55.740] thank you Mr chairman thank you all for [00:22:57.600] being here [00:22:59.340] I want to thank everybody for making [00:23:01.620] this happen today and I want to remind [00:23:02.880] everybody this is a nonpartisan issue [00:23:04.980] this has nothing to do with Party [00:23:06.240] politics I think [00:23:08.400] the cover up goes a lot deeper than that [00:23:10.620] I also want to thank my colleagues [00:23:12.799] representative Anna Paulina Luna sitting [00:23:15.659] beside me here [00:23:17.039] Jared Moskowitz [00:23:18.720] my friend across the aisle has an [00:23:21.240] incredible mind and I’m anxious to hear [00:23:23.039] his questions my buddy Eric Burleson and [00:23:25.919] it’s not in my notes here but Matt Gates [00:23:28.140] if it hadn’t been for Matt Gates myself [00:23:29.700] him and Luna would still be down at [00:23:31.500] Eglin Air Force Base trying to get some [00:23:33.360] answers [00:23:35.340] he’s got an incredible legal mind also [00:23:37.799] uh I know I saw it in the crowd there [00:23:39.659] George Knapp my buddy Jeremy Corbell [00:23:42.240] I’ve [00:23:43.799] they’re not Witnesses but they’ve [00:23:45.960] provided some statements on this subject [00:23:48.059] and I see unanimous consent to enter [00:23:49.799] those statements into the record Mr [00:23:51.600] chairman without objection also would [00:23:54.360] like to enter in I understand now that [00:23:56.640] this is unclassified and it’s public [00:23:58.440] record but as we all know that’s [00:24:00.179] sometimes difficult for the public to [00:24:02.220] get a hold of a report defense [00:24:03.780] intelligence reference documents [00:24:06.120] Advanced space propulsion based on [00:24:08.220] vacuum [00:24:09.299] space-time metric engineering some light [00:24:11.940] reading for some of our members without [00:24:13.919] objection thank you [00:24:15.840] um you know Mr Knapp wrote since 1969 [00:24:18.720] the position our military has been that [00:24:20.280] UFOs pose no threat to National Security [00:24:22.500] and are not worthy of further study I’d [00:24:25.799] say that’s the biggest understatement of [00:24:28.260] the decade [00:24:29.520] um he also goes on to talk about the [00:24:31.440] dismissive attitude and said odds with [00:24:33.539] what was revealed in documents reports [00:24:35.280] and internal memos [00:24:36.720] and Mr cabrill says as he writes these [00:24:40.200] words the UFO is emerging as a major [00:24:41.940] topic of global importance [00:24:44.760] um I could state that as a fact out [00:24:47.820] there I met a fella who came in there [00:24:49.200] all the way from Denmark to be here for [00:24:51.480] this this meeting so this is huge this [00:24:53.880] is worldwide I think we we suspect [00:24:56.820] what’s going on but I’d also like to [00:24:58.440] thank the members of Congress who [00:24:59.760] supported our efforts to make this [00:25:01.620] hearing happen some have even confided [00:25:03.480] to me that they’ve had UFO sightings of [00:25:05.280] Their Own [00:25:06.360] those members of course some of them [00:25:08.039] wish to remain anonymous and I’ll keep [00:25:09.539] it that way but also finally I’d like to [00:25:11.700] thank these three Brave Witnesses here [00:25:14.520] they took an oath they took a note to [00:25:16.679] uphold the Constitution United States [00:25:18.120] and Dad government they’re doing it and [00:25:20.100] we owe them a debt of gratitude [00:25:33.440] [Applause] [00:25:35.640] y’all quit clapping you’re cutting in on [00:25:37.919] my time [00:25:39.900] just kidding these folks they’ve got [00:25:42.000] nothing to gain from this and I think [00:25:44.039] you’re going to find out that they’ve [00:25:45.240] endured quite a few slings and arrows we [00:25:47.820] need to remember them in our prayers and [00:25:49.500] their families and I’m thankful them for [00:25:51.179] their honest testimonies they have done [00:25:53.279] interviews and appeared in documentaries [00:25:54.900] like accidental truth to get their [00:25:56.760] stories out there to and and now they [00:25:59.279] are all here to testify under oath for [00:26:00.960] Congress [00:26:02.279] and it’s been so difficult to get here [00:26:04.860] today I’ve said you know in the Baptist [00:26:06.419] Church we’d say that the devil’s in our [00:26:08.159] way and um the devil has been in our way [00:26:10.500] through this thing we’ve we’ve run into [00:26:12.659] roadblocks from members from the [00:26:14.520] intelligence Community the Pentagon I [00:26:16.620] proposed legislation to go in the FAA [00:26:18.860] reauthorization that just said if uh [00:26:21.659] if an airline pilot has a sighting that [00:26:25.380] when he makes that report to the FAA [00:26:27.059] that it would come to Congress but I was [00:26:28.799] told that the intelligence community did [00:26:31.200] not like that and the bill was and the [00:26:32.880] amendment was not even heard in [00:26:34.140] committee [00:26:35.279] I think it’s time for this country to [00:26:37.020] take back our country we need to tell [00:26:38.940] the folks at the Pentagon they work for [00:26:40.919] us that government we don’t work for [00:26:42.779] them [00:26:44.159] and that’s exactly the point this is an [00:26:46.140] issue of government transparency we [00:26:48.299] can’t trust a government that does not [00:26:49.919] trust its people we’re not bringing [00:26:51.960] Little Green Men or flying saucers into [00:26:53.760] the hearing sorry to disappoint about [00:26:56.100] half y’all we’re just going to get to [00:26:58.200] the facts we’re going to uncover the [00:27:00.600] cover-up and I hope this is just the [00:27:02.580] beginning of many more hearings and more [00:27:04.140] people coming forward about this and I [00:27:06.419] yield back the remainder of my time [00:27:08.279] um I think is it to representative Luna [00:27:10.380] Mr chairman yeah we’ll we’ll call him as [00:27:12.539] Luna for her statement [00:27:15.539] their circumstances surrounding uaps has [00:27:18.000] captivated the intention of the American [00:27:19.620] people for decades ingrained in even the [00:27:21.840] minds of our nation’s leaders from Jimmy [00:27:23.460] Carter to Barack Obama Hillary Clinton [00:27:25.860] to Donald Trump Marco Rubio de Chuck [00:27:28.140] Schumer John Radcliffe to National [00:27:30.539] Security Council officials yet from [00:27:32.940] Roswell New Mexico to the coast of [00:27:34.620] Jacksonville Florida the sightings of [00:27:36.419] uaps have rarely been explained by the [00:27:38.460] people who have first-hand accounts of [00:27:40.020] these situations this is largely due to [00:27:42.419] the lack of transparency by our own [00:27:44.159] government and the failure of our [00:27:45.900] elected leaders to make good on their [00:27:47.520] promises to release explanations and [00:27:49.559] footage and mountains of over-classified [00:27:51.840] documents that continue to be hidden [00:27:53.520] from the American people [00:27:55.020] this isn’t just how I feel in fact the [00:27:57.299] American people largely believe that the [00:27:59.039] government has actively covered up the [00:28:00.659] truth about uaps one poll in particular [00:28:03.539] found that 68 percent of Americans [00:28:05.400] believe that the government is hiding [00:28:06.960] information about uaps and not being [00:28:09.120] honest about what we know about them and [00:28:11.279] from my personal experience I believe [00:28:13.080] the same thing [00:28:14.279] another poll found that nearly half [00:28:16.020] Americans believe that the federal [00:28:17.340] government is doing a very bad or [00:28:19.440] somewhat bad job of dealing with reports [00:28:21.299] of UFO sightings as representative [00:28:23.760] burchett just referenced on the fa bill [00:28:25.799] that just went through you can tell that [00:28:28.020] that’s exactly happening considering the [00:28:30.419] thousands of testimonies and videos [00:28:31.860] taken on people’s phones and [00:28:33.720] eyewitnesses accounts made by credible [00:28:35.580] Witnesses such as doctors Pilots [00:28:37.860] scientists and active duty service [00:28:39.480] members is unacceptable to continue to [00:28:42.059] Gaslight Americans into thinking that [00:28:43.740] this is not happening or that the [00:28:45.539] potential of intelligence intelligent [00:28:47.940] life forms exists other than humans [00:28:50.520] even more alarming is the fact that [00:28:52.320] these eyewitnesses are many of times [00:28:54.120] service members and have no assurance [00:28:55.740] that their lives will not be negatively [00:28:57.360] impacted or even harmed by their [00:28:59.100] experiences [00:29:00.240] in being an active duty service member [00:29:02.400] working on an Airfield I’ve had [00:29:04.200] conversations with many Pilots where [00:29:06.240] they were in fear of coming forward for [00:29:07.919] Retribution and or being taken off [00:29:09.960] flight status [00:29:11.279] how do we know this because the [00:29:12.659] government has said nothing to assure us [00:29:14.279] otherwise they have also did nothing to [00:29:17.159] to calm the concerns of over 20 of [00:29:19.860] Americans who have reported to have seen [00:29:21.360] UFOs or uaps we are simply told not to [00:29:24.840] question the government and that the [00:29:26.340] government has it under control [00:29:28.080] today is the first hearing of its kind [00:29:29.820] where we will attempt to get down to the [00:29:31.140] bottom of what is actually happening [00:29:32.399] with uaps but we’ll hear from people who [00:29:34.740] have had personal sightings rather than [00:29:36.360] Pentagon bureaucrats who have always [00:29:38.340] been sent to Stonewall investigations [00:29:40.860] just so that the Press knows and the [00:29:42.600] people know we were even denied access [00:29:44.760] to a classified briefing in a skiff [00:29:46.799] prior to this hearing due the amount of [00:29:48.240] Hoops that we had to jump through to [00:29:50.039] Grant temporary clearance to witness [00:29:51.899] Crush who has knowledge of classified [00:29:54.240] information [00:29:55.559] it is time to have an open-minded [00:29:57.299] discussion on this topic to hear the [00:29:58.919] evidence and understand the magnitude of [00:30:00.600] what this means not just for our nation [00:30:01.919] but for Humanity thank you chairman I [00:30:04.140] yield back the rest of my time [00:30:06.000] thank you very much and I’d like to [00:30:08.039] thank you thank you and Mr burchett for [00:30:09.960] bringing this topic to my attention uh [00:30:12.659] now we’ll recognize National Security [00:30:14.399] subcommittee ranking member Garcia for [00:30:16.919] 10 minutes [00:30:20.340] well thank you Mr chairman and I want to [00:30:22.140] thank first our Witnesses for joining us [00:30:24.000] today I want to begin by thanking you [00:30:26.159] all for your service to our country I [00:30:28.440] mean for sharing your voices uh today [00:30:30.120] and your courage uh to be here as well [00:30:31.799] uh to Mr Graves uh particularly grateful [00:30:34.380] to you to spend some time that we had [00:30:36.840] um for you to share with Candor um some [00:30:38.580] of your experiences so I appreciate that [00:30:40.200] as well I do want to thank all the [00:30:42.960] members of our subcommittee today and [00:30:44.820] also those that are here and have waved [00:30:46.740] on for their incredible interest in this [00:30:48.960] issue uh particularly to Congressman [00:30:50.760] burchett I know that your leadership has [00:30:52.980] brought us to this place today and I [00:30:54.179] want to thank you for uh for that as [00:30:55.919] well as everyone else that’s been [00:30:57.120] engaged in this work I also want to [00:30:59.399] thank the oversight staff who I know has [00:31:00.899] been working very hard to ensure that [00:31:03.179] today’s hearing is serious that it’s [00:31:05.580] transparent and that it also provides [00:31:07.620] appropriate answers as our oversight [00:31:09.600] body always demands now it’s really [00:31:12.419] important that we’re here in a [00:31:13.440] bipartisan way to have this conversation [00:31:15.659] which really to the heart of it is about [00:31:17.220] National Security and key to the [00:31:19.559] subcommittee’s Core purpose this is the [00:31:21.360] subcommittee on National Security of the [00:31:23.580] oversight committee now our witnesses [00:31:25.620] will testify today that uaps have posed [00:31:27.840] a serious safety threat and we must [00:31:30.419] understand this more broadly we’re [00:31:32.279] dealing with real questions they get to [00:31:33.779] the heart of our faith in government [00:31:36.080] faith in our institutions as we all know [00:31:38.220] is at an all-time low partisanship and [00:31:40.620] alternative facts make it too easy to [00:31:42.720] doubt narrative or into or our [00:31:44.460] institutions but this hearing will offer [00:31:46.440] the public unique perspectives building [00:31:48.360] on years of reporting by both federal [00:31:50.220] agencies and the Independent Media now [00:31:53.279] some of the earliest reporting on this [00:31:54.659] issue was a groundbreaking 2017 New York [00:31:57.659] Times report which we which revealed [00:31:59.700] research as we know now on unidentified [00:32:01.679] anomalous phenomena as many call UFOs by [00:32:04.860] the defense intelligence agency Mr [00:32:07.260] Graves and Commander forever’s [00:32:08.460] experiences with uaps have also been [00:32:10.500] documented by the public not just by the [00:32:12.600] New York Times but CNN and many other [00:32:14.820] national news outlets now the office of [00:32:17.640] the Director of National Intelligence [00:32:18.899] has published public reports doc [00:32:20.279] committing uaps and on June 9 2022 NASA [00:32:24.240] announced that the agency is [00:32:25.140] commissioning a study to of course [00:32:26.760] examine unidentified anomalous phenomena [00:32:29.220] now the sheer number of reports [00:32:30.720] whistleblowers and stories of [00:32:32.220] unidentified anomalous phenomena should [00:32:34.200] raise real questions and warrant [00:32:35.880] investigation and oversight and that’s [00:32:37.919] why we are here today now Pilots have [00:32:40.140] reported encounters for years now [00:32:42.240] because of the stigma around reporting [00:32:43.919] these incidents we still don’t have a [00:32:45.659] complete picture of actually what’s [00:32:47.340] going on particularly as our witnesses [00:32:49.799] will testify on the civilian side and [00:32:52.140] that is a real problem that we have [00:32:53.880] today in the country now it’s very [00:32:55.740] important that we show that Democrats [00:32:57.179] and Republicans in Congress can come [00:32:59.340] together in a bipartisan way to cut [00:33:01.799] through misinformation and to look at [00:33:03.179] the facts in a serious and thoughtful [00:33:04.919] manner if we are to advance oversight [00:33:07.260] and public disclosure we must also gain [00:33:09.539] the broad support of the public we will [00:33:12.539] succeed getting facts out to the public [00:33:14.399] faster if there is a broad public [00:33:16.620] support as part of the process now I [00:33:19.140] understand fully the Department of [00:33:20.340] Defense is hesitant to share information [00:33:22.260] that could also undermine our national [00:33:24.240] security by revealing information on the [00:33:26.519] capabilities of our own aircraft our [00:33:28.740] sensors and other sensitive material at [00:33:31.919] the same time many people believe that [00:33:33.659] we’re withholding information from them [00:33:35.340] and that is dangerous also I believe in [00:33:38.100] openness and transparency that is also [00:33:40.440] the role of Congress and I want to trust [00:33:42.779] that the American people will be able to [00:33:44.340] weigh the evidence and make up their own [00:33:46.260] minds now we have incidents where [00:33:48.480] sensors sometimes even multiple types of [00:33:50.640] sensors detect things that we cannot [00:33:52.320] explain [00:33:53.360] uaps whatever they may be May pose a [00:33:56.700] serious threat to our military or [00:33:58.140] civilian aircraft and that must be [00:34:00.299] understood [00:34:01.380] now my career in training as a long time [00:34:03.840] and career educator and teacher and [00:34:05.880] researcher tell me that we should never [00:34:07.980] rule anything out [00:34:09.899] we know that our space of course is vast [00:34:12.300] and undiscovered [00:34:13.740] I also want to note that Mr Sean [00:34:15.179] Kirkpatrick director of the all domain [00:34:16.859] anomaly resolution office the component [00:34:19.139] of the dod office that investigates UAP [00:34:21.179] data has testified before the Senate [00:34:23.460] this year that his unit has found no [00:34:25.740] evidence of extra extra activity NASA [00:34:28.500] has also stated that they don’t have [00:34:29.580] evidence of extraterrestrial life either [00:34:31.980] and we’ve heard this of course from some [00:34:33.659] of our government agencies and we should [00:34:36.060] remind viewers and Witnesses which I [00:34:37.560] think is really important that we also [00:34:39.240] cannot share classified information in [00:34:41.700] public settings but questions of course [00:34:43.980] remain [00:34:45.179] that people want to see data and [00:34:46.740] information for themselves the enormous [00:34:48.659] interest in the hearing today [00:34:49.560] underscores the importance of a fair and [00:34:51.240] open look at the evidence from Witnesses [00:34:54.179] who can share their unique perspectives [00:34:55.679] now I know I certainly have a lot of [00:34:57.720] questions I know that all the members of [00:34:59.339] our committee do as well [00:35:01.140] we should come to this hearing with an [00:35:03.000] open mind and we should not let our [00:35:04.920] existing ideas restrict us on either [00:35:07.320] side I hear over and over from many [00:35:09.359] agencies a stigma around reporting and [00:35:11.220] investigating uaps [00:35:13.079] prevents us from getting real answers we [00:35:15.780] know that whistleblowers have reported [00:35:17.040] harassment intimidation or stigma as [00:35:18.900] well and this is not acceptable if [00:35:21.240] people can’t report incidents which [00:35:22.980] would have National Security or safety [00:35:24.960] implications then that also has serious [00:35:26.760] consequences for us as ranking member of [00:35:29.099] this subcommittee I know it’s my I know [00:35:31.020] my job would be completely impossible if [00:35:33.060] whistleblowers or others feel [00:35:34.200] intimidated to come before this [00:35:35.460] committee we can’t be afraid of asking [00:35:37.560] questions and we can’t be afraid of the [00:35:39.660] truth I’m proud to say that that’s a [00:35:41.640] hearing builds upon bipartisan work by [00:35:43.320] members of the House and Senate dating [00:35:45.300] many years back which is sought to [00:35:46.560] increase awareness within the Department [00:35:47.820] of Defense and more and to mandate more [00:35:50.280] of Congress of uaps we know the Senate [00:35:53.400] is taking up an amendment to their [00:35:54.660] defense authorization bill which will [00:35:56.460] create a commission with broad [00:35:57.720] declassification Authority and we can [00:35:59.820] should all agree that that is an [00:36:01.020] important step members of both parties [00:36:03.180] and Senior officials in multiple [00:36:04.440] administrations have taken an interest [00:36:06.240] in this issue and we’re proud to carry [00:36:08.460] and build that confidence in the [00:36:09.839] American people this hearing will also [00:36:11.880] not be the end of this discussion but a [00:36:14.400] new chapter and start to years and years [00:36:16.500] of work that many folks both in both in [00:36:18.660] the public and within government have [00:36:20.280] been working on we should encourage more [00:36:22.440] reporting not less on uaps the more they [00:36:25.859] under we understand the safer we will be [00:36:28.200] we looked your testimony from Witnesses [00:36:30.420] today with a long record of service to [00:36:32.579] the American people and with subject [00:36:33.960] matter expertise art Witnesses have a [00:36:36.180] unique opportunity to share the [00:36:37.320] prospective insights and their [00:36:39.599] experiences with the American people and [00:36:41.880] I encourage all of my colleagues to [00:36:43.500] engage with these difficult questions [00:36:44.760] with an open mind and to follow the [00:36:46.800] facts on behalf of our country I also [00:36:50.339] just want to say more broadly that we [00:36:52.380] should look at this hearing with and [00:36:53.820] believe that everything is on the table [00:36:55.140] as it relates to uaps I think we an open [00:36:57.119] mind is absolutely the best I want to [00:36:59.339] yield there are two and a half minutes [00:37:00.660] of the remainder of my time to the [00:37:02.579] representative from Florida [00:37:03.420] representative Moskowitz for an opening [00:37:05.820] statement he also has been very much [00:37:07.619] engaged in this issue and I want to [00:37:08.820] thank him for his leadership Congressman [00:37:11.359] thank you ranking member Garcia thank [00:37:13.980] you Mr chairman I want to thank uh Tim [00:37:16.140] burchett and Anna Paulina Luna for their [00:37:18.420] leadership in pushing uh this hearing [00:37:21.000] forward I want to thank uh obviously [00:37:23.099] committee staff and their staff working [00:37:24.359] on this on a bipartisan basis because [00:37:27.000] many Americans are deeply interested uh [00:37:29.400] in this issue and it shouldn’t take the [00:37:31.859] potential of non-human origin to bring [00:37:34.079] us together [00:37:35.060] additionally I want to thank the [00:37:36.540] witnesses for for coming forward to [00:37:38.280] share your perspectives your thoughts [00:37:39.780] and the sightings of uaps unlike other [00:37:42.780] hearings many times in Congress you’re [00:37:45.359] not here to help a political party but [00:37:47.460] you’re here to share information with [00:37:49.500] the American people [00:37:51.119] and it’s not something that is just [00:37:52.859] going on in this Administration it’s [00:37:54.060] something that’s spanned many [00:37:56.460] administrations for decades many [00:37:58.380] Americans have been fascinated by [00:37:59.940] objects mysterious and unexplained and [00:38:02.700] it’s long past time that they got some [00:38:04.560] answers [00:38:05.579] the American public has a right to learn [00:38:07.740] about Technologies of unknown Origins [00:38:10.820] non-human intelligence and unexplainable [00:38:13.680] phenomena [00:38:14.940] those are not the words of a UFO Twitter [00:38:17.280] account though that is a direct quote [00:38:19.800] for majority leader Chuck Schumer that [00:38:22.260] the American public has a right to learn [00:38:23.760] about Technologies of unknown Origins [00:38:25.760] non-human intelligence and unexplainable [00:38:28.500] phenomena in an interview with Fox News [00:38:30.960] recent former Director of National [00:38:32.579] Intelligence John Radcliffe confirmed [00:38:34.619] the U.S government is aware a lot more [00:38:37.380] sightings of uaps and that they have not [00:38:41.099] made that information public I quote [00:38:43.079] there are a lot more sightings that have [00:38:45.000] not been made public Radcliffe said to [00:38:47.220] Fox News [00:38:48.480] for me this hearing is about [00:38:49.740] transparency we unfortunately live in a [00:38:52.920] time in which many people distrust [00:38:54.660] government and our institutions and over [00:38:56.640] classification of information away from [00:38:59.160] the American public or even Congress [00:39:01.200] contributes to today’s Politics the [00:39:03.720] American people have regular questions [00:39:04.920] what are uaps how come the media doesn’t [00:39:07.619] report more on them are they foreign [00:39:09.480] adversaries are the U.S technology are [00:39:12.119] they something else they ask themselves [00:39:14.339] how come when a Russian jet shoots [00:39:16.380] flares at one of our drones we have [00:39:19.020] perfect pictures and videos to show the [00:39:21.359] American people and the world but when [00:39:23.760] it comes to uaps nothing [00:39:26.940] of course we must always protect our [00:39:28.859] national security to maintain our [00:39:30.780] superiority like when stealth [00:39:32.880] helicopters were only rumored to exist [00:39:35.820] but were used in the Osama Bin Laden [00:39:37.920] raid in 2011. but we can’t allow that to [00:39:41.640] be used as a shield to keep the American [00:39:43.980] people completely in the dark from basic [00:39:47.099] truths the American people deserve to [00:39:49.560] hear more about special access programs [00:39:51.599] Congress has a right to know if there’s [00:39:53.640] any unsanctioned weapons development [00:39:56.820] satellite imagery that has not been [00:39:58.740] provided to Congress [00:40:00.420] Congress created the all-demain [00:40:02.280] resolution office in the ndaa of 2022 [00:40:05.280] in its initial analysis there are 171 [00:40:10.099] uncharacterized UAP reports and this is [00:40:12.839] the words from the report that appear to [00:40:15.300] have demonstrated unusual flight [00:40:17.160] characteristics or performance [00:40:18.900] capabilities [00:40:20.160] I believe more information is known [00:40:21.900] about the 171 instances [00:40:24.599] it’s time for Congress to reinsert [00:40:26.460] ourselves I call on our military leaders [00:40:28.800] and intelligence officials to release [00:40:30.780] more information to the American people [00:40:32.700] about uaps [00:40:34.260] and to our military leaders if there’s [00:40:36.900] nothing to conceal let Congress go to [00:40:40.200] write Patterson Air Force Base The [00:40:42.119] dugway Proving Ground or even Groom Lake [00:40:44.460] in Nevada [00:40:45.839] we should have disclosure today we [00:40:48.180] should have disclosure tomorrow the time [00:40:50.400] has come thank you ranking member [00:40:53.579] thank you Mr Moskowitz and I would yield [00:40:55.079] back now to our chairman thank you [00:40:58.079] right now I’d like to introduce our [00:40:59.760] Witnesses our first Witnesses Lieutenant [00:41:01.680] Ryan Graves he’s the executive director [00:41:04.140] of Americans for safe Aerospace [00:41:06.180] Lieutenant Graves is also a former U.S [00:41:08.760] Navy F-18 pilot with the Zone UAP [00:41:11.640] experience the next witness David grush [00:41:15.060] is a former senior intelligence officer [00:41:17.160] with the National geospatial [00:41:19.020] Intelligence Agency and was a senior [00:41:21.119] technical advisor for UAP issues and [00:41:24.240] finally finally retired Navy commanded [00:41:26.640] date Commander David fraver Squadron [00:41:29.579] leader who worked as a Naval aviator for [00:41:31.740] 18 years Mr fraver has his own UAP [00:41:34.980] experience known as The Tick Tock event [00:41:37.200] I look forward to hearing from all three [00:41:39.240] of you today [00:41:41.280] um pursuant to committee rule 9g the [00:41:44.099] witnesses will please stand and raise [00:41:45.540] their right hands [00:41:49.020] do you solemnly swear or affirm that the [00:41:52.140] testimony you are about to give is the [00:41:53.520] truth the whole truth and nothing but [00:41:54.839] the truth so helped you God [00:41:58.140] let the records show that all the [00:42:00.060] witnesses answered in the affirmative [00:42:01.500] you may be seated [00:42:03.540] we appreciate you all being here today [00:42:05.280] and look forward to your testimony I’ll [00:42:07.140] remind the witnesses that we have read [00:42:08.700] your written statements and they will [00:42:10.440] appear in full in the hearing record [00:42:11.880] please try to limit your oral statements [00:42:14.280] to five minutes as a reminder please [00:42:16.500] press the button on the microphone in [00:42:18.180] front of you so that it’s on and the [00:42:20.339] members can hear you when you begin to [00:42:22.260] speak the light in front of you will [00:42:23.579] turn green after four minutes it’ll turn [00:42:25.980] yellow and the red light when that comes [00:42:28.500] on it tells you your five minutes have [00:42:30.599] expired I’ll now recognize Mr Graves for [00:42:33.839] five minutes for your opening statement [00:42:36.540] thank you [00:42:37.980] chairman grothman ranking member Garcia [00:42:40.260] distinguished members of the House [00:42:41.640] oversight subcommittee on National [00:42:43.140] Security representative burchett and [00:42:45.119] Luna [00:42:46.260] my name is Ryan Fox Graves and I’m a [00:42:48.599] former F-18 pilot with a decade of [00:42:50.280] service in the U.S Navy including two [00:42:52.079] deployments in operation enduring [00:42:53.640] freedom and operation inherent resolve I [00:42:56.339] have experience Advanced UAP firsthand [00:42:58.140] and I’m here to voice the concerns of [00:42:59.700] more than 30 commercial air crew and [00:43:01.319] military veterans who have confided [00:43:02.819] their similar encounters with me [00:43:05.160] today I would like to highlight three [00:43:07.140] critical issues that demand our action [00:43:09.660] as we convene here UAP are in our [00:43:12.000] airspace but they are grossly [00:43:13.619] under-reported these sightings are not [00:43:15.599] rare or isolated they are routine [00:43:17.280] military air crew and commercial pilots [00:43:19.500] trained observers whose lives depend on [00:43:21.480] accurate identification are frequently [00:43:23.460] witnessing these phenomena [00:43:26.160] the stigma attached to UAP is real and [00:43:28.560] powerful and challenges National [00:43:29.940] Security [00:43:31.380] it silences commercial pilots who fear [00:43:33.300] professional repercussions discourages [00:43:34.980] Witnesses it is only compounded by [00:43:36.960] recent government claims questioning the [00:43:38.579] credibility of eyewitness testimony [00:43:41.280] parts of our government are aware of [00:43:42.900] more about UAP than they let on the [00:43:45.060] excessive classification practices keep [00:43:46.800] crucial information hidden since 2021 [00:43:49.619] all UAP videos are classified as secret [00:43:51.960] or above this level of secrecy not only [00:43:54.119] impedes our understanding but fuels [00:43:55.980] speculation and mistrust [00:43:58.800] in 2014 I was an F-18 foxtrot pilot in [00:44:02.460] the Navy fighter attack Squadron 11 the [00:44:04.440] red Rippers [00:44:05.819] and I was stationed at NAS Oceana in [00:44:07.980] Virginia Beach [00:44:09.240] after upgrades were made to our Jets [00:44:10.980] radar systems we began detecting unknown [00:44:12.960] objects operating in our airspace [00:44:15.780] at first we assume there are radar [00:44:17.579] errors but soon we began to correlate [00:44:19.740] the radar tract with multiple onboard [00:44:21.180] sensors including infrared systems [00:44:22.980] eventually through Visual ID [00:44:26.099] during a training mission in morning [00:44:27.660] area whiskey 72 10 miles off the coast [00:44:30.240] of Virginia Beach two F-18 Super Hornets [00:44:32.700] were split by UAP [00:44:34.380] the object described as a dark gray or a [00:44:36.780] black Cube inside of a clear sphere came [00:44:38.940] within 50 feet of the lead aircraft and [00:44:40.920] was estimated to be 5 to 15 feet in [00:44:42.960] diameter the mission Commander [00:44:44.760] terminated the flight immediately and [00:44:46.140] returned base [00:44:47.460] our Squadron submitted a safety report [00:44:49.140] but there was no official acknowledgment [00:44:50.940] of the incident and no further mechanism [00:44:52.500] to report the sightings [00:44:54.900] soon these encounters became so frequent [00:44:56.819] that aircrew would discuss the risk of [00:44:58.140] UAP as part of their regular PreFlight [00:45:00.359] briefs [00:45:03.900] recognizing the need for action and [00:45:05.640] answers I founded Americans for safe [00:45:07.380] Aerospace the organization has since [00:45:09.359] become a heaven for UAP Witnesses who [00:45:11.339] were previously unspoken due to the [00:45:12.780] absence of a safe intake process more [00:45:15.300] than 30 Witnesses have come forward in [00:45:16.859] almost 5 000 Americans have joined us in [00:45:18.780] the fight for transparency at safe [00:45:20.579] aerospace.org [00:45:22.319] the majority of Witnesses are commercial [00:45:24.000] pilots at majority major airlines often [00:45:27.300] they are veterans with Decades of flying [00:45:28.980] experience Pilots are reporting UAP at [00:45:31.319] altitudes that appear above them at [00:45:33.240] forty thousand feet potentially in low [00:45:35.040] earth orbit or in the gray Zone below [00:45:36.720] the Carmen line [00:45:37.920] making inexplainable Maneuvers like [00:45:40.319] right hand turns and retrograde orbits [00:45:42.180] or j-hooks [00:45:43.619] sometimes these reports are reoccurring [00:45:45.540] with numerous recent sightings north of [00:45:47.220] Y and in the North Atlantic [00:45:50.099] other veterans are also coming forward [00:45:51.720] to us regarding UAP Encounters in our [00:45:53.760] airspace [00:45:55.079] and oceans the most compelling involved [00:45:57.420] observations of UAP by multiple [00:45:58.980] Witnesses and sensor systems I believe [00:46:00.900] these accounts are only scratching the [00:46:02.640] surface and more will share their [00:46:04.079] experiences once it is safe to do so [00:46:07.140] in closing I recognize the skepticism [00:46:09.240] surrounding this topic [00:46:10.920] if everyone could see the sensor and [00:46:12.599] video data I’ve witnessed our national [00:46:14.400] conversation would change [00:46:16.020] I urge us to put aside stigma and [00:46:17.819] address the security and safety issue [00:46:19.260] this topic represents if you appear [00:46:21.420] foreign drones it is an urgent national [00:46:23.400] security problem if it is something else [00:46:25.500] it is an issue for science [00:46:28.020] in either case unidentified objects are [00:46:30.119] concerned for flight safety the American [00:46:31.980] people deserve to know what is happening [00:46:33.480] in our skies it is long overdue [00:46:36.420] thank you [00:46:40.020] Mr Rush [00:46:44.940] Mr chairman ranking members and [00:46:46.980] congressmen thank you I’m happy to be [00:46:49.140] here this is an important issue and I’m [00:46:50.880] grateful for your time [00:46:52.500] my name is David Charles grush I was an [00:46:54.960] intelligence officer for 14 years in the [00:46:57.599] both in the U.S Air Force both active [00:47:00.180] duty Air National Guard and Reserve at [00:47:02.880] the rank of major and most recently from [00:47:05.160] 2021 to 2025 or excuse me 2023 at the [00:47:10.079] National geospatial Intelligence Agency [00:47:11.880] NGA at the gs-15 civilian level which is [00:47:15.839] the military equivalent of a full bird [00:47:17.579] colonel [00:47:19.319] I was my agency’s co-lead and [00:47:21.180] unidentified anomalous phenomena and [00:47:23.040] transmedium object analysis as well as [00:47:26.220] reporting to the UAP task force uaptf [00:47:29.520] and eventually once it was established [00:47:32.099] the all domain anomaly resolution office [00:47:34.560] Arrow [00:47:36.000] I became a whistleblower through a PPD [00:47:39.240] 19 [00:47:40.619] urgent concern filing in May 2022 with [00:47:44.099] the intelligence Community Inspector [00:47:45.900] General [00:47:46.980] following concerning reports from [00:47:49.079] multiple esteemed and credentialed [00:47:51.060] current and former military and [00:47:53.640] intelligence Community individuals that [00:47:55.920] the U.S government is operating with [00:47:58.079] secrecy [00:47:59.220] above congressional oversight with [00:48:02.040] regards to uaps [00:48:04.020] my testimony is based on information [00:48:05.760] I’ve been given by individuals with a [00:48:08.460] long-standing track record of legitimacy [00:48:11.160] and service to this country [00:48:14.040] many of whom also have shared compelling [00:48:16.079] evidence in the form of photography [00:48:18.119] official documentation and classified [00:48:20.700] oral testimony to myself and many my [00:48:23.700] various colleagues [00:48:25.560] I have taken every step I can to [00:48:27.660] collaborate this evidence over a period [00:48:29.579] of four years while I was with the UAP [00:48:32.099] task force and do my due diligence on [00:48:35.099] the individual sharing it this is [00:48:37.319] because of these steps I believe [00:48:39.420] strongly in the importance of bringing [00:48:41.880] this information before you [00:48:43.859] I am driven by a commitment of both to [00:48:46.500] truth and transparency [00:48:48.420] rooted in our inherent duty to uphold [00:48:50.700] the United States Constitution and [00:48:53.220] protect the American people [00:48:55.560] I’m asking Congress to hold our [00:48:57.240] government to the standard and [00:48:58.740] thoroughly investigate these claims [00:49:01.200] but as I stand here under oath now I am [00:49:03.720] speaking to the facts as I have been [00:49:05.520] told them [00:49:06.839] in the U.S Air Force in my national [00:49:09.240] reconnaissance office nro reserves [00:49:11.760] capacity I was a member of the UAP task [00:49:14.099] force from 2019 to 2021. I served at the [00:49:18.240] narrow operations center on the [00:49:19.800] director’s briefing staff which included [00:49:22.380] the coordination of the presidential [00:49:23.700] Daily Brief and supporting variety of [00:49:26.220] contingency operations which I was the [00:49:28.500] reserve Intelligence Division Chief back [00:49:30.839] up [00:49:32.280] in 2019 the UAP task force director [00:49:36.359] asked me to identify all special access [00:49:39.060] programs and controlled access programs [00:49:42.240] also known as saps and caps we needed to [00:49:45.540] satisfy our congressionally mandated [00:49:47.579] Mission and we were direct report at the [00:49:49.980] time to the depth sect deaf [00:49:52.619] at the time due to my extensive [00:49:54.660] executive level intelligence support [00:49:56.160] duties I was cleared to literally all [00:49:58.640] relevant compartments and in a position [00:50:01.380] of extreme trust both in my military and [00:50:04.260] civilian capacities [00:50:06.060] I was informed in the course of my [00:50:08.579] official duties of a multi-decade UAP [00:50:12.180] crash retrieval and reverse engineering [00:50:14.700] program [00:50:16.500] to which I was denied access to those [00:50:18.420] additional read-ons when I requested it [00:50:22.140] I made the decision based on the data I [00:50:24.540] collected to report this information to [00:50:26.880] my Superior [00:50:28.200] superiors and multiple inspectors [00:50:30.240] General and in effect becoming a [00:50:32.339] whistleblower [00:50:33.480] as you know I’ve suffered retaliation [00:50:36.300] for my decision but I am hopeful that my [00:50:38.760] actions will ultimately lead to a [00:50:41.280] positive outcome of increased [00:50:42.960] transparency [00:50:44.160] uh thank you and I’m happy to answer [00:50:45.720] your questions [00:50:47.339] thank you uh Commander favor [00:50:52.980] uh thank you thank you Mr chairman [00:50:55.040] Congressman congresswoman [00:50:58.500] um I want to first thank you for the [00:51:00.119] invitation to speak to the committee on [00:51:01.319] the UAP topic this has been in the news [00:51:02.819] for the past six years and seems to be [00:51:04.440] continuing to gain momentum [00:51:06.540] as you know my name is David fraver I’m [00:51:08.160] retired commander in the United States [00:51:09.420] Navy in 2004 I was a commanding officer [00:51:12.059] of Strike Fighter Squadron 41 the world [00:51:13.800] famous Black Aces if you’re a test to [00:51:16.200] carrier 11 station on board the USS [00:51:18.059] Nimitz and have begun a two-month [00:51:19.500] work-up cycle off the coast of [00:51:21.000] California [00:51:22.920] on this day we were scheduled for a 2v2 [00:51:24.780] area training with the USS Princeton as [00:51:26.700] our control [00:51:27.960] when we launched off knewitz my wingman [00:51:30.059] was joining up we were told that the [00:51:31.559] training was going to be suspended and [00:51:33.300] we’re doing we’re going to proceed with [00:51:35.099] real world tasking [00:51:37.440] as we proceeded to the West the air [00:51:39.000] controller was counting down the range [00:51:40.380] to an object that we were going to and [00:51:41.819] we’re unaware of what we were going to [00:51:43.140] see when we arrived [00:51:47.220] their uh the controller told us that [00:51:49.079] these objects had been observed for over [00:51:51.480] two weeks coming down from over 80 000 [00:51:53.220] feet rapidly descending to 20 000 feet [00:51:55.920] hanging out for hours and then going [00:51:57.780] straight back up for those who don’t [00:51:59.160] realize above 80 000 feet is space [00:52:02.280] we arrived at the location at [00:52:03.839] approximately 20 000 feet in a [00:52:05.339] controller called merge plot which means [00:52:06.780] that our radar blip was now in the same [00:52:08.160] resolution cell as the contact [00:52:10.500] as we looked around we noticed that we [00:52:12.180] saw some white water off our right side [00:52:13.680] it’s important to note the weather on [00:52:15.359] this day was as close to perfect as you [00:52:17.460] could ask for off the coast of San Diego [00:52:18.839] clear skies light winds calm seas no [00:52:21.119] White Caps from waves so the White Water [00:52:23.099] stood out in a large Blue Ocean [00:52:25.380] all four of us because we were an f-18fs [00:52:27.359] so we had pilots and wizzo in the back [00:52:28.800] seat looked down a small saw white [00:52:30.839] Tic-Tac object with a longitudinal axis [00:52:32.940] pointing North South and moving very [00:52:34.740] abruptly over the water like a ping pong [00:52:37.319] ball there were no rotors no rotor wash [00:52:39.780] or any sign of visible control surfaces [00:52:42.059] like wings as we started clockwise [00:52:44.400] towards the object My Wizard and I [00:52:45.839] decided to go down and take a closer [00:52:47.339] look with the other aircraft staying in [00:52:48.720] High cover to observe both us and the [00:52:50.280] Tic Tac [00:52:52.079] we proceeded around the circle about 90 [00:52:53.940] degrees from the start of our descent [00:52:55.500] and the object object suddenly shifted [00:52:58.500] its longitudinal axis aligned it with my [00:53:00.839] aircraft and began to climb [00:53:03.780] we continue down another 270 degrees [00:53:05.940] nose low where the Tic Tac or we [00:53:08.819] consumed 270 degrees toward and we went [00:53:11.579] nose load where the Tic Tac would have [00:53:13.140] been our altitude at this point was [00:53:14.760] about 15 000 feet and the Tic Tac was [00:53:16.500] about twelve thousand as we pulled those [00:53:18.240] onto the object within about a half mile [00:53:19.859] of it it rapidly accelerated in front of [00:53:22.020] us and disappeared our wing men roughly [00:53:24.119] 8 000 feet above us lost contact also we [00:53:27.000] immediately turned back to see where the [00:53:28.440] white water was at and it was gone also [00:53:30.660] so as you started to turn back towards [00:53:32.460] the east the controller came up and said [00:53:33.960] sir you’re not going to believe this but [00:53:35.160] that thing is at your cat Point roughly [00:53:36.540] 60 miles away in less than a minute you [00:53:39.000] can calculate the speed we return to [00:53:41.099] Nimitz we were taking off our gear we [00:53:43.020] were talking to one of my Cruisers [00:53:43.980] getting ready to launch we mentioned it [00:53:45.300] to him and they went out and luckily got [00:53:47.280] the video that you see that 90 second [00:53:48.780] video what you don’t see is the radar [00:53:51.000] tape that was never released and we [00:53:52.319] don’t know where it’s at the act of [00:53:54.119] jamming that the object put on an apg-73 [00:53:56.220] radar and I can get into modes later if [00:53:58.319] you’re interested [00:53:59.940] what is shocking to us is that the [00:54:01.440] incident was never investigated none of [00:54:03.000] my crew ever questioned tapes were never [00:54:04.440] taken and after a couple days it turned [00:54:06.059] into a great story with friends it [00:54:07.920] wasn’t until 2009 until Jay Stratton had [00:54:10.140] contacted me to investigate [00:54:11.660] unbeknownstall he was part of the atip [00:54:13.619] program in the Pentagon led by louisando [00:54:17.099] and there was an official official [00:54:18.780] report that came out that’s now on the [00:54:20.099] internet years later I was contacted by [00:54:22.200] the other pilot Alex Dietrich and asked [00:54:24.119] if I’d been contacted and I said no but [00:54:25.800] I’m willing to talk [00:54:27.059] I was contacted by Mr Elizondo and we [00:54:30.599] talked for a short period of time and he [00:54:32.160] said we’d be in contact a few weeks [00:54:34.380] after that I was made a word that lewd [00:54:35.819] left the Pentagon in protest and joined [00:54:37.800] forces with Tom Delong Chris melon Steve [00:54:39.839] Justice and others to form two stars [00:54:41.460] Academy an organization that pressed the [00:54:43.500] issue with leading industry experts and [00:54:45.000] U.S government officials they worked [00:54:46.800] with Leslie Keane who was president [00:54:47.880] today Rob Blumenthal and Helene Cooper [00:54:49.740] to publish the articles in the New York [00:54:51.300] Times 2017 New York Times and it removed [00:54:55.079] the stigma on the topic of UFOs which is [00:54:57.240] why we’re here today [00:54:58.680] those articles open the door for the [00:55:00.839] government and public that cannot be [00:55:02.040] closed it has led to an interest from [00:55:03.660] our elected officials who are not [00:55:05.339] focused on Little Green Men but figuring [00:55:07.260] out where these crafts are where they [00:55:09.300] from the technology they possess how do [00:55:11.579] they operate it also led to the [00:55:13.200] Whistleblower protection act in the ndaa [00:55:14.880] there are multiple Witnesses coming [00:55:16.619] forward to say uh that have first-hand [00:55:19.319] knowledge and and Mr grush just covered [00:55:21.180] that what concerns me is that there’s no [00:55:22.619] oversight from our elected officials on [00:55:24.119] anything associated with our government [00:55:25.380] processing or working on Craft [00:55:27.720] I believe not from this world this issue [00:55:30.240] is not a full public disclosure that [00:55:31.980] could undermine National Security but it [00:55:33.839] is about ensuring that our system of [00:55:35.099] checks and balances Works across all [00:55:36.720] work done in the government using [00:55:37.740] taxpayer funds relative to government [00:55:39.720] programs even unacknowledged wave [00:55:41.400] programs have some level of oversight by [00:55:43.319] the appropriate committee members in the [00:55:44.640] House and Senate and this work that is [00:55:46.680] said to be occurring from whistleblower [00:55:48.000] testimonies should not be exempt in [00:55:50.040] closing I would like to say that the Tic [00:55:51.480] Tac object we engaged in 2004 was far [00:55:53.520] superior to anything that we had on time [00:55:55.260] have today or looking to develop in the [00:55:57.720] next 10 years if we in fact have [00:55:59.520] programs that possess this technology [00:56:00.960] and needs to have oversight from those [00:56:02.579] people that the citizens of this great [00:56:04.260] country elected in office to represent [00:56:06.480] what is best for the United States and [00:56:08.339] best for the citizens I thank you for [00:56:09.720] your time thank you very much thank you [00:56:12.059] very much I know it’s very difficult for [00:56:13.680] all of you all you’ve done in the past [00:56:14.940] to try to illuminate this issue call [00:56:17.520] myself first for some questions I’m [00:56:19.920] going to start with Mr Graves [00:56:22.140] um are your Pilots our Pilots that you [00:56:24.480] interact with as part of your [00:56:25.619] organization do you feel adequately [00:56:27.780] trained and briefed on how to handle [00:56:29.520] encounters with uaps [00:56:31.680] no right now uh military witnesses to [00:56:35.040] UAP have limited options for reporting [00:56:37.319] UAP but more more concerning is that [00:56:40.680] commercial Aviation sector has not [00:56:43.079] adapted to the lessons that the military [00:56:45.000] has implemented the military and [00:56:47.700] Department defense has stated that UAP [00:56:49.500] represent a critical Aviation safety [00:56:52.079] risk we have not seen that that same [00:56:54.859] that same language being used in the [00:56:57.059] commercial markets they are not [00:56:58.140] acknowledging this risk okay what steps [00:57:00.720] do you think you have to be taken to [00:57:01.859] improve a pilot’s UAP reporting [00:57:04.740] be it military or commercial [00:57:06.839] right now we need a system where Pilots [00:57:08.760] can report without fear of losing their [00:57:10.920] jobs there is a fear that the stigma [00:57:13.619] associated with this topic is going to [00:57:15.240] lead to professional repercussions [00:57:16.559] either through management or perhaps [00:57:18.240] through their yearly physical check so [00:57:20.520] having a secure system reducing the [00:57:22.559] stigma and making this available this [00:57:24.780] information available through the public [00:57:26.160] is going to reduce the concerns that [00:57:28.740] aircrew have could you just give me a [00:57:30.480] little idea that the degree to which [00:57:32.160] reports in the past are are not made [00:57:34.559] public right now [00:57:36.420] well I don’t think there has been a [00:57:38.460] proper reporting system to gather those [00:57:40.200] reports and thus not report them so to [00:57:42.780] answer your question I think there is a [00:57:44.160] dearth of data due to the fact that the [00:57:45.780] reporting has been limited up to this [00:57:47.160] time could you tell me why you believe [00:57:49.319] it’s [00:57:50.760] kind of play The Devil’s Advocate a [00:57:52.559] reason why some of this stuff should not [00:57:54.180] be available to the public [00:57:56.400] there’s certainly some National Security [00:57:57.780] concerns when we use our Advanced [00:57:59.579] sensors and our tactical Jets to be able [00:58:01.500] to identify these these objects however [00:58:04.020] there’s no reason that the objects [00:58:05.579] themselves would be classified I would [00:58:07.920] be curious to see how the security [00:58:09.300] classification guideline actually spells [00:58:11.579] out the different nuances of how this [00:58:13.680] topic is classified from the from the [00:58:15.720] perspective of UAP not National Security [00:58:18.420] I’ll give you a follow-up on that [00:58:19.920] assuming that there are reasons why not [00:58:22.140] all this should be made public this has [00:58:24.480] been around for a long period of time [00:58:27.660] um can you think of can any of the three [00:58:29.400] of you think of any reason why anything [00:58:31.980] related to uaps say 15 years in back [00:58:36.000] should not be immediately made public [00:58:42.180] one of it is uh acknowledging a [00:58:45.059] vulnerability both from a collection and [00:58:47.640] I’ll just say A you know countermeasure [00:58:49.260] perspective so it’s uh no we haven’t [00:58:51.420] cracked for many years yeah even say 20 [00:58:53.400] years back is there any reason why when [00:58:55.140] you go back that far things shouldn’t be [00:58:56.760] made public [00:58:58.940] unless it shows a specific National [00:59:00.960] Security vulnerability as it relates to [00:59:03.720] a weakness and particular defenses okay [00:59:06.119] Mr fraver the Tic Tac incident that you [00:59:08.640] and that with that you were engaged [00:59:10.920] occurred in 2004 what kind of reporting [00:59:13.440] took place after that incident [00:59:17.280] before the backseaters went down to our [00:59:19.140] carrier Intel Center and brief what had [00:59:21.240] happened and that was it no one else [00:59:24.000] talked to us and I was in the top 20 in [00:59:26.160] the battle group no one came [00:59:28.020] that Captain was aware that was aware [00:59:30.000] nothing was done you’re commanding [00:59:31.859] officers provide any sort of [00:59:33.180] justification [00:59:35.220] no because I was a commanding officer of [00:59:37.500] the Squadron so no [00:59:40.020] was this incident the only UAP event [00:59:42.780] that you encountered while you were a [00:59:44.160] pilot [00:59:45.119] yes it was okay [00:59:47.640] um this is for any one of you based on [00:59:49.319] based off of each of your experiences [00:59:51.240] and observations do you believe uaps [00:59:54.000] pose a Potential Threat to our national [00:59:55.740] security [00:59:58.940] on yes and here’s why [01:00:03.119] the the technology that we faced was far [01:00:06.119] superior than anything that we had [01:00:08.040] and you could put that anywhere if you [01:00:10.319] if you had one you captured one you [01:00:12.780] reverse engineered it you got it to work [01:00:14.339] you’re talking something that can go [01:00:16.740] into space go someplace drop down in a [01:00:19.140] matter of seconds do whatever it wants [01:00:21.180] and leave [01:00:22.319] and there’s nothing we can do about it [01:00:24.180] nothing [01:00:25.740] okay either the other YouTube I would [01:00:28.200] also like to add from commercial [01:00:29.819] Aviation and Military Aviation [01:00:31.559] perspective we deal with uncertainty in [01:00:33.420] our operating space as a matter of of [01:00:35.520] our protection professional actions [01:00:37.380] identifying friend from foe is very [01:00:39.599] important to us and so when we have [01:00:42.299] unidentified targets and we continue to [01:00:44.460] ignore those due to a stigma or fear of [01:00:46.380] what it could be that’s an opening that [01:00:48.180] our adversaries can take advantage of [01:00:49.619] what what uh steps should we take in to [01:00:51.839] better understand and respond to UAP [01:00:53.460] Encounters in the interest of National [01:00:55.380] Security [01:00:56.760] there needs to be a location where this [01:00:58.380] information is centralized for [01:00:59.880] processing and there needs to be a [01:01:01.200] two-way communication Loop so the [01:01:02.640] operators on the front end have a [01:01:04.319] feedback and can can get best practices [01:01:06.960] on how to process information what to do [01:01:09.359] and to ensure that they they their [01:01:11.940] reporting is being listened to right now [01:01:13.920] there’s not a lot of back and forth Mr [01:01:15.780] gresh in your complaint to the [01:01:17.520] intelligence Community inspector you [01:01:19.680] Inspector General you claim that you [01:01:21.359] believe information is being hidden what [01:01:23.700] kind of information do you think was [01:01:25.020] hidden and do you think it should remain [01:01:26.339] hidden [01:01:27.599] yes I can speak to that very briefly in [01:01:29.460] unclassified manner as you know the [01:01:30.960] preponderance of my complaint was [01:01:32.220] classified to the intelligence [01:01:33.480] communities uh both uh material [01:01:36.480] acquisition and exploitation activity [01:01:39.660] um also baselining the uaps but not [01:01:42.359] sharing it with you know intelligence [01:01:44.460] professionals that are actually doing [01:01:45.720] step briefs to Pilots uh that that kind [01:01:48.420] of information yeah yeah okay thank you [01:01:50.940] very much now we’ll go to Mr Garcia [01:01:53.520] thank you um again thank you all for for [01:01:55.920] your service and for testifying today I [01:01:57.839] want to just uh talk about the uaps it [01:02:00.119] relates to what we’re seeing in the [01:02:01.740] Pilot’s interaction with uaps [01:02:03.240] particularly Mr Graves one of the [01:02:04.799] concerns that for members of this [01:02:06.420] committee is this idea that Pilots [01:02:08.280] there’s no system to actually report [01:02:09.960] uaps and the stigma around pilots and so [01:02:12.900] could you can you just briefly you [01:02:15.180] mentioned that they’re you working with [01:02:16.260] 30 Pilots right now that have had [01:02:17.640] encounters with uaps but you’ve also I [01:02:20.400] believe I’m discussed and know of many [01:02:23.220] more pilots this is just those that [01:02:24.720] you’re currently working with is that [01:02:25.920] correct can you expand on that certainly [01:02:27.780] I’ll break that down in two ways first [01:02:29.819] when we were first experiencing these [01:02:32.040] objects off the Eastern Seaboard in the [01:02:33.599] 2014 to 2015 time period anyone that had [01:02:37.020] upgraded their radar systems were seeing [01:02:39.299] these objects so there was a large [01:02:40.559] number of my colleagues that were [01:02:42.420] detecting these objects off the Eastern [01:02:43.859] Seaboard they were further correlating [01:02:46.079] that information with the other onboard [01:02:47.520] centers and many of them also had their [01:02:49.440] own uh eye sightings as well of these [01:02:52.079] objects now that was our personal first [01:02:54.540] firsthand experience at the time since [01:02:57.240] then as I’ve engaged this topic others [01:02:59.760] have reached out to me that share their [01:03:01.020] experiences both on the military side as [01:03:03.299] well as a commercial Aviation side on [01:03:05.700] the military Aviation side veterans that [01:03:07.980] have recently got out have shared their [01:03:09.359] stories and have expressed how the [01:03:10.799] objects we were seeing in 2014 2015 [01:03:13.640] continued all the way to 2019 2020 and [01:03:16.740] Beyond and so it became a generational [01:03:18.780] issue for Naval aviators on the Eastern [01:03:20.880] Seaboard this was something we are [01:03:22.680] briefing to new students this is [01:03:24.780] something that was included in the [01:03:25.920] notice to Airmen to ensure that there [01:03:28.020] was no uh accidents and now with [01:03:31.920] commercial aviators they are reaching [01:03:33.299] out because they’re having somewhat [01:03:34.559] similar experiences as our military [01:03:36.000] brothers and sisters but they do not [01:03:37.980] have any reporting system that they can [01:03:40.020] send this to and let me just add both to [01:03:42.540] to Mr fravor as well as Mr Graves not [01:03:46.440] having this system for for reporting [01:03:48.359] would you both degree that is harmful to [01:03:51.240] not just our national security interests [01:03:52.740] but to understand this phenomenon of [01:03:54.480] what’s happening with uaps [01:03:56.579] I think it’s it’s uh it’s a it’s [01:03:59.700] actually it’s a travesty that we don’t [01:04:01.619] have a system to correlate this and [01:04:03.960] actually investigate you know so if you [01:04:05.940] took the East Coast you know there’s [01:04:07.200] there’s there’s Coastal Radars out there [01:04:08.819] that monitor our air defense [01:04:10.260] identification zone so out to 200 miles [01:04:12.980] uh they can track these you know so when [01:04:15.420] you see them they could actually go and [01:04:16.740] pull that data and get maneuvering and [01:04:18.780] instead of just having the airplanes [01:04:20.640] there’s other data sources out there and [01:04:22.559] I’ve talked to other government [01:04:23.280] officials on this so you need a [01:04:24.960] centrally located repository that these [01:04:26.819] reports go to so if you just stuck it in [01:04:28.920] dod you wouldn’t get anything out of the [01:04:30.540] intelligence committee because they have [01:04:32.339] a tendency not to talk but if you had a [01:04:34.140] central location where these reports [01:04:35.339] would come in not just military but also [01:04:36.900] commercial Aviation because there’s a [01:04:38.339] lot of that going on especially if you [01:04:39.599] talk to anyone that flies from here to [01:04:41.099] Hawaii over the Pacific they see odd [01:04:43.260] lights [01:04:43.920] so I think you need to develop something [01:04:47.040] that allows you a central point to [01:04:48.780] collect the data in order to investigate [01:04:50.640] Mr Graves [01:04:52.680] I would concur with everything Mr fravor [01:04:54.540] said I’ll continue to say that the [01:04:56.760] commercial pilots that have reached out [01:04:58.020] to me through Americans for safe [01:04:59.040] Aerospace are doing so because they [01:05:00.720] don’t feel there’s another way for them [01:05:01.920] to report their safety issue and I think [01:05:03.599] one of the clear outcomes of this [01:05:05.099] hearing already is that there has to be [01:05:07.440] a safe and transparent reporting process [01:05:09.900] for Pilots both on the commercial side [01:05:11.819] and the military side to be able to [01:05:13.619] report uaps in a way that’s also [01:05:15.180] transparent but also understands the [01:05:17.819] scope of our of our national security [01:05:19.319] interests and what may be classified or [01:05:22.140] not but I think there has to be some [01:05:23.460] sort of system and so that’s something [01:05:24.599] that I hope can be an outcome that this [01:05:26.339] committee can can work on uh is there [01:05:29.520] anything else for just for the two of [01:05:30.660] you briefly Beyond this reporting system [01:05:32.460] that you think that we can do as a [01:05:33.900] government to encourage and facilitate [01:05:35.520] more civilian reporting [01:05:37.380] I’m just doing it right now okay great I [01:05:39.599] think this hearing is is going to show [01:05:41.220] the American people that their [01:05:42.540] government takes this topic seriously [01:05:43.859] and how [01:05:44.940] and how about civilians it may not be [01:05:46.380] Pilots what kind of process could be in [01:05:48.359] place for civilians who are not pilots [01:05:50.099] who may have UAP encounters do either of [01:05:52.500] you have any suggestions that could [01:05:53.760] facilitate that my recommendations would [01:05:56.160] make would be to make that a sense a [01:05:58.380] sensor Centric operation in order to [01:06:00.599] make it as objective as possible okay [01:06:02.640] sir Mr favor no I agree with Mr Graves [01:06:05.339] on that okay [01:06:07.200] um just just briefly I also just want to [01:06:10.020] um note for particularly for the two [01:06:11.640] pilots I have a question for Mr grush [01:06:12.960] one of the things that I found [01:06:14.040] fascinating in our discussion Mr Graves [01:06:15.420] last night as well is that you’ve both [01:06:16.980] described [01:06:18.359] um uaps and formations and the way they [01:06:21.180] have they they they are observed in [01:06:23.880] space or or in our air and the way that [01:06:26.579] they move essentially [01:06:28.680] um ways in which current technology or [01:06:30.480] aircraft that we know of are unable to [01:06:32.460] actually function or move and so will [01:06:34.200] you just for the public record again [01:06:35.579] once once again [01:06:37.319] um just uh briefly just either describe [01:06:41.460] or note that aircraft that are being [01:06:43.740] witnessed particularly by the 30 folks [01:06:45.359] that you’re working with are essentially [01:06:46.980] outside the scope of anything that we [01:06:48.839] know of today in the technology we have [01:06:49.980] today Mr graves Mr favor [01:06:52.020] yes the objects that are being seen by [01:06:54.480] commercial pilots are performing [01:06:56.339] Maneuvers that are unexplainable due to [01:06:58.680] our current understanding of our [01:06:59.880] technology and our capabilities as a [01:07:01.500] country and that applies for the [01:07:03.119] military as well Mr Mr [01:07:05.460] yeah I concur with that we have nothing [01:07:07.140] that can stop in midair and go the other [01:07:08.940] direction nor do we have anything that [01:07:10.680] can like in our situation come down from [01:07:12.780] space hang out for three hours and go [01:07:14.339] back up thank you my last question and [01:07:15.839] so and sometimes you I know that some [01:07:17.339] you have also said some of these answers [01:07:19.440] in the past we’re trying to get them on [01:07:20.640] the public record as well which is [01:07:21.900] really important Mr gresh finally do you [01:07:23.819] believe that our government is in [01:07:24.900] possession of uaps [01:07:26.720] absolutely based on interviewing uh over [01:07:29.579] 40 Witnesses over four years and and [01:07:31.619] where [01:07:33.000] I know the exact locations and those [01:07:35.460] locations were provided to the Inspector [01:07:37.440] General and some of which to the [01:07:39.299] intelligence committees I actually had [01:07:40.920] the people with the first-hand knowledge [01:07:43.920] um provide a protected disclosure to the [01:07:45.480] Inspector General thank you and Mr [01:07:47.039] chairman I would just say that I think [01:07:48.180] that these questions are important [01:07:49.740] questions and I look forward to being [01:07:51.900] involved in the process to get those [01:07:53.099] answered I know there’ll be a lot of [01:07:54.119] questions from the committee members so [01:07:55.140] I yield back [01:07:56.400] thank you we’ll go to Mr birchard [01:07:58.079] himself [01:07:59.460] thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr [01:08:01.680] Garcia I would like to have you on the [01:08:03.359] my legislation to do just that on the on [01:08:06.000] the reporting [01:08:07.380] um and we’ll get together on that maybe [01:08:09.480] it could be my co-sponsor on that that’d [01:08:11.460] be really cool thank you for those great [01:08:13.380] questions [01:08:15.119] um [01:08:16.799] Mr Graves again I’d like to know how do [01:08:20.940] you know that these were not our [01:08:22.440] aircraft [01:08:24.299] some of the behaviors that we saw in a [01:08:26.160] working area we would see these objects [01:08:28.640] being at 0.0 Mach that’s zero airspeed [01:08:32.940] over certain pieces of the ground so [01:08:35.279] what that means just like a river if you [01:08:36.839] throw a bobber in it’s going to float [01:08:38.160] Downstream these objects were staying [01:08:40.199] completely stationary and category 4 [01:08:42.060] hurricane winds these same objects would [01:08:44.400] then accelerate to supersonic speeds 1.1 [01:08:46.980] 1.2 Mach and they would do so in very [01:08:49.920] erratic and quick behaviors that we [01:08:51.960] don’t I don’t have an explanation for [01:08:53.460] okay have you spoken to Commercial and [01:08:56.520] Military Pilots [01:08:58.040] that have seen these off of our East [01:09:00.299] Coast I have okay [01:09:03.960] um [01:09:05.460] Mr Fiverr [01:09:07.199] I noticed that um in the Tic Tac video [01:09:11.060] uh it’s Tic Tac like the candy not Tick [01:09:14.940] Tock like the Chinese Communist uh app [01:09:18.179] that’s correct yes sir I just want to [01:09:19.739] make that because my daughter uh [01:09:22.500] corrected me on that and called me a [01:09:24.299] boomer and say Boomer and I said no baby [01:09:26.699] it’s Tic Tac like the candy you’re gonna [01:09:28.380] have to just look it up and um but now I [01:09:31.080] would love to like to say today is a is [01:09:32.880] a day of many first it’s a miracle that [01:09:35.580] we’re having this this meeting and it’s [01:09:37.859] also a miracle that my wife has put up [01:09:40.140] with me for nine years today today is my [01:09:42.239] anniversary so I want to tell my wife [01:09:43.859] happy anniversary and that I love her [01:09:45.420] very much [01:09:46.920] um [01:09:47.640] as she likes to say this nine years have [01:09:49.920] been the best two years of her life so [01:09:51.839] thank you [01:09:54.239] um Mr favor [01:09:56.520] what what astonished you the most about [01:09:59.460] the the flight capabilities of these Tic [01:10:02.040] Tac very briefly [01:10:03.900] uh the performance [01:10:05.940] absolute performance it was and you’re [01:10:08.280] you’re not aware of any other objects [01:10:10.080] that anybody in the world has in this [01:10:12.239] world that has those capabilities no I [01:10:15.060] think it’s far beyond actually our [01:10:16.739] Material Science that we currently [01:10:18.000] possess [01:10:20.040] are you aware of any other [01:10:21.480] reconnaissance platforms that attract or [01:10:23.400] recorded the Tic Tacs Maneuvers maybe [01:10:25.199] the NORAD system or any of the others I [01:10:27.480] am not okay Mr grosh [01:10:30.840] thank you for being here brother thank [01:10:33.060] you all very much [01:10:34.560] um have you faced any retaliation or [01:10:36.659] arrivals for any of your testimony or [01:10:39.179] anything [01:10:40.320] on these lines yeah uh I have to be [01:10:43.500] careful what I say in detail because [01:10:45.060] there is an open uh whistleblower [01:10:47.100] reprisal investigation on my behalf and [01:10:49.320] I don’t want to compromise that [01:10:51.000] investigation by providing anything that [01:10:53.280] may uh [01:10:54.540] help provide somebody information but it [01:10:57.960] was very brutal and very unfortunate [01:11:00.719] some of the tactics they used to hurt me [01:11:04.020] both professionally and and personally [01:11:05.880] to be quite Frank yeah it’s very [01:11:07.980] unfortunate as they say when you’re over [01:11:09.659] the target that’s when they do the most [01:11:11.480] firing at you do you have any personal [01:11:13.320] knowledge of people who’ve been harmed [01:11:14.940] or injured in efforts to cover up or [01:11:17.219] conceal these extraterrestrial [01:11:18.659] technology yes [01:11:22.800] personally have you heard anyone been [01:11:25.679] murdered that you would think that you [01:11:27.719] know of or have heard of I guess I have [01:11:29.820] to be careful asking that question I [01:11:31.920] directed people with that knowledge to [01:11:33.540] the appropriate authorities maybe in a [01:11:35.699] um if we could get it get in a [01:11:38.540] confidential area skiff we could talk [01:11:41.280] about that but unfortunately [01:11:44.219] um we were denied access to the skiff [01:11:47.219] and that’s very unfortunate in this in [01:11:49.380] this scenario [01:11:51.420] um [01:11:53.520] Mr favor [01:11:55.199] do you believe that you witnessed an [01:11:57.360] additional object under the water in [01:11:59.400] relation to your encounter [01:12:01.679] I will say we did not see an object [01:12:03.420] there was something there to cause the [01:12:04.800] white water and when we turned around it [01:12:06.360] was gone so there was something there [01:12:07.620] that obviously moved [01:12:09.179] okay it was it was not the same object [01:12:11.340] though that you were you were looking at [01:12:12.960] correct no we actually joke that the Tic [01:12:15.060] Tac was communicating with something [01:12:16.860] when we came back and because the White [01:12:19.260] Water disappeared [01:12:20.699] uh we were in another instance we’re [01:12:23.400] told about the capabilities of a jamming [01:12:26.340] during viewing of some when there were [01:12:28.980] some people chasing some of these [01:12:30.480] objects did you experience any of that [01:12:32.340] jamming or interrupting your radar or [01:12:34.199] weapon system my crew that launched [01:12:36.480] after we landed experienced significant [01:12:38.520] jamming to the apg-73 radar which was [01:12:40.860] what we had on board which is a [01:12:42.120] mechanically scanned very high-end [01:12:43.860] system prior to the apg-79 and yes it [01:12:47.340] did pretty much everything you could do [01:12:48.719] range velocity aspect and then it hit [01:12:52.320] the lock and the targeting pod is [01:12:53.580] passive that’s what we were able to get [01:12:54.840] the video on I’m about to run out of [01:12:57.060] time but um are you aware of any of our [01:12:58.739] enemies that have that capability [01:13:01.140] no okay I would also like to note for [01:13:04.440] the record that um like George Knapp [01:13:06.840] breaking Area 51 he’s the reason I knew [01:13:09.480] about that and the reason I know about [01:13:10.500] the Tic Tacs is uh is Leslie Kane from [01:13:14.580] New York Times article and I would [01:13:15.960] encourage everybody to read that [01:13:18.420] thank you Mr chairman yield back no time [01:13:20.760] very good Mr Raskin [01:13:24.000] thank you Mr chairman um Mr Graves [01:13:27.000] um you reported UAP encounters [01:13:30.360] um during training flights I think and [01:13:34.020] have since come forward to warn the [01:13:35.580] Pentagon that these encounters may be [01:13:39.239] putting Pilots at risk [01:13:42.420] um [01:13:43.860] my first question is [01:13:46.140] um you’ve identified these as taking [01:13:48.060] place on the east coast is it just on [01:13:50.040] the East Coast where these encounters uh [01:13:52.800] have been reported no since the events [01:13:56.520] initially occurred I’ve learned that the [01:13:58.199] objects have been detected essentially [01:14:00.060] where uh all operations Navy operations [01:14:02.760] are being conducted across the world and [01:14:05.040] that’s from uh the all domain anomaly [01:14:07.440] resolutions office reporting [01:14:09.540] all right can you describe your [01:14:11.040] experience after you decided to come [01:14:12.540] forward and [01:14:14.460] um go public with your um experience [01:14:17.640] certainly like many others in 2017 I saw [01:14:21.120] the New York Times article come out as [01:14:23.460] well and for me it was it was special [01:14:26.040] because I recognized the voices on the [01:14:27.719] video I recognized the video itself I [01:14:30.420] had seen it when it was taken I seen it [01:14:32.159] when it was debriefed and so that was [01:14:35.460] kind of shook me because I realized that [01:14:37.140] this problem was still ongoing and so I [01:14:39.179] reached out to colleagues back on the [01:14:40.500] east coast and realized that this was [01:14:42.420] still a safety risk that they were [01:14:43.739] dealing with that they had essentially [01:14:45.000] hit a wall with how they could move [01:14:46.560] forward on this conversation it was at [01:14:48.719] that point when I decided to try to move [01:14:50.280] the conversation forward myself [01:14:52.980] um are there common characteristics to [01:14:55.500] the uaps that have been cited by [01:14:57.659] different pilots and can you describe [01:14:59.520] what the convergence of descriptions is [01:15:02.100] certainly we were primarily seeing dark [01:15:05.040] gray or black cubes inside of a clear [01:15:06.900] sphere I’m sorry dark gray or black [01:15:09.300] cubes yes inside of a clear sphere where [01:15:12.420] the Apex or tips of the cube were [01:15:14.280] touching the inside of that sphere and [01:15:16.199] that was primarily what was being [01:15:17.520] reported when we were able to gain a [01:15:19.380] visual tally of these objects and that [01:15:21.300] occurred over almost eight years and as [01:15:23.400] far as I know it’s still occurred [01:15:25.850] [Music] [01:15:26.219] um [01:15:27.780] so I take it that you’re arguing what we [01:15:31.020] need is real transparency in a reporting [01:15:33.179] system so we can get some clarity on [01:15:35.580] what’s going on out there because there [01:15:37.860] are many pilots in your situation [01:15:40.620] um but we should have a way of [01:15:43.320] developing assist systematic inventory [01:15:45.719] of all of such encounters is that right [01:15:47.699] yes and I think we need both [01:15:49.199] transparency and the reporting we have [01:15:51.000] the reporting but we need to make sure [01:15:52.320] that information can be promulgated to [01:15:54.000] commercial Aviation as well as the rest [01:15:55.800] of the populace [01:15:57.420] um Mr Crush what about you what was your [01:15:59.460] experience after you came forward [01:16:02.699] well uh it’s only been about two months [01:16:05.040] or so so I guess my experience has been [01:16:07.199] overwhelming support from uh former [01:16:09.719] colleagues of mine that have you know [01:16:11.100] privately messaged me and and I do [01:16:13.140] appreciate that uh but I I do have [01:16:16.140] knowledge of um [01:16:18.179] active planned uh reprisal activity [01:16:20.520] against myself and other colleagues and [01:16:22.140] it’s very very upsetting to me coming [01:16:24.420] from where [01:16:25.980] uh certain senior leadership at previous [01:16:28.739] agencies I was associated with [01:16:31.140] and that’s all I’ll say publicly but I [01:16:32.940] can provide more details in a closed [01:16:34.560] environment okay well I I hope you [01:16:37.140] understand that [01:16:38.760] um there would be bipartisan rejection [01:16:41.280] of any attempt uh to vilify demonize or [01:16:45.420] engage in other reprisals against our [01:16:47.760] Witnesses and people who are telling the [01:16:50.400] truth from their perspective yeah there [01:16:52.380] were certain colleagues of mine that [01:16:53.460] were brutally administratively attacked [01:16:55.440] and it you know actually makes me very [01:16:56.940] upset as a leader to see that happen to [01:17:00.000] other co-workers and actually superiors [01:17:02.219] of mine over the last three years how do [01:17:04.199] you account for that response that seems [01:17:06.300] like a bizarre response I called [01:17:08.640] administrative terrorism that’s their [01:17:10.440] their quiver their tool in the toolbox [01:17:12.360] to silence people especially you know [01:17:15.840] the career government service cares [01:17:17.760] about the career cares about their [01:17:19.140] clearance uh their reputation to climb [01:17:21.480] the ladder and when you threaten that uh [01:17:24.480] flow career path a lot of people back [01:17:27.179] off [01:17:28.140] but I’m here to represent those people [01:17:30.179] so [01:17:32.460] um Mr fravor what about you what has [01:17:36.000] your experience been since you’ve come [01:17:38.340] forward with your perspective on this [01:17:40.140] actually I’ve been treated very well and [01:17:42.420] the six people that were involved myself [01:17:44.280] included [01:17:45.540] all of them have or will be retiring [01:17:47.520] from the military as 0506s and all my [01:17:50.760] friends that are very senior three and [01:17:52.800] four stars I’ve talked to them they they [01:17:55.140] believe they understand there’s a [01:17:56.940] problem but no I was actually treated [01:17:58.380] really well and and what is your general [01:18:01.860] interpretation [01:18:04.440] um of these phenomena or what is your [01:18:08.580] current thinking of trying to make sense [01:18:10.800] of them well I’ll say you know I’m not [01:18:13.500] like a UFO fanatic it’s not it’s not me [01:18:16.020] but I will tell you that what we saw [01:18:19.320] with four sets of eyes over a five [01:18:22.199] minute period [01:18:23.580] still there’s nothing we have nothing [01:18:25.739] close to it it was it was amazing to see [01:18:27.840] I told my buddy I wanted to fly it but [01:18:29.699] yeah it’s just an incredible technology [01:18:32.580] all right Mr chairman thank you very [01:18:34.260] much I’ll yield back to you [01:18:36.900] uh thanks and Miss Luna [01:18:40.620] Mr grush in speaking to you yesterday [01:18:44.940] um I just wanted to follow up on [01:18:46.699] representative raskin’s questions [01:18:50.159] in the last couple of years have you had [01:18:52.739] incidences that have caused you to be in [01:18:55.440] fear for your life for addressing these [01:18:57.600] issues [01:18:58.620] yes personally [01:19:00.239] yeah I just want everyone to note that [01:19:02.040] he’s coming forward in fear of his life [01:19:04.440] to put in perspective if they were [01:19:06.600] really not scared about this information [01:19:08.219] coming out why would someone be [01:19:09.480] intimidated like that [01:19:11.760] um to your knowledge our nhis working [01:19:14.520] with adversarial foreign governments in [01:19:16.620] either technology exchange programs or [01:19:18.900] back engineering programs I don’t have [01:19:21.179] data on that I’m not sure have you heard [01:19:23.580] or you had people come forward to [01:19:25.440] present that evidence [01:19:27.179] not that particular evidence that you [01:19:29.280] just espoused okay on the 19th of April [01:19:32.159] Dr Kirkpatrick head of Arrow had said [01:19:35.159] that he did not find any evidence of [01:19:36.540] uaps you also stated that you had in [01:19:39.239] your interview that you had briefed him [01:19:40.679] on information that you are uncovering [01:19:42.300] but that he did not follow up with you [01:19:44.400] were the items that you divulged to him [01:19:46.860] pertin to National Security [01:19:49.199] yes him and I had a classified [01:19:51.780] conversation in April 2022 before he [01:19:54.060] took over arrow in the July to 2022 and [01:19:58.679] I provided him some concerns I had [01:20:01.080] do you know why he might not have fallen [01:20:02.640] up with you [01:20:04.500] uh um unfortunately I cannot read his [01:20:06.780] mind I wish she did I was I was happy to [01:20:09.780] give Sage counsel to him on where to [01:20:12.060] look when he took the the Helm of Arrow [01:20:14.640] okay and then my last question for you [01:20:16.920] before I moved to Mr Graves is um you [01:20:19.679] received prior approval from the defense [01:20:21.300] department to speak on certain issues [01:20:22.739] correct [01:20:23.580] correct through uh dobster DOD [01:20:25.560] pre-publication and Security review and [01:20:27.600] I just want to remind the public uh [01:20:29.940] they’re just looking from a security [01:20:31.320] perspective uh these are my own personal [01:20:33.840] views and opinions uh not the [01:20:35.760] Departments okay I’m asking that mainly [01:20:38.340] because I think that there are many [01:20:39.840] people that would like to discredit you [01:20:41.400] so it does bring a certain amount of [01:20:43.800] credibility to your testimony I’m [01:20:45.480] required by law to do that as a Former [01:20:46.920] Intelligence officer or I go to jail for [01:20:49.380] revealing classified information yeah we [01:20:50.699] don’t want you to go to jail [01:20:52.040] my next question would actually be for [01:20:55.199] Mr Graves can you please explain to me [01:20:58.500] in detail the event that occurred at [01:21:01.020] Vandenberg Air Force Base [01:21:03.659] certainly [01:21:05.159] uh in the 2003 time frame a large group [01:21:09.360] of Boeing contractors were operating [01:21:10.980] near one of the launch facilities at [01:21:12.540] Vandenberg Air Force Base when they [01:21:14.100] observed a very large 100 yard sided uh [01:21:18.659] Red Square uh approached the base from [01:21:22.320] the ocean and hover at low altitude over [01:21:24.600] one of the launch facilities [01:21:26.179] this object remained for about 45 [01:21:28.980] seconds or so before darting off over [01:21:31.020] the mountains [01:21:32.760] um there was a similar event within 24 [01:21:34.440] hours later in the evening this was a [01:21:36.540] morning event I believe 8 45 in the [01:21:39.420] morning later in the evening post sunset [01:21:41.840] there were reports of other sightings on [01:21:44.760] base including some aggressive behaviors [01:21:46.739] these objects were approaching some of [01:21:48.840] the security guards at rapid speeds [01:21:50.460] before darting off and this is [01:21:52.920] information that was received through [01:21:54.239] one of the witnesses that have [01:21:56.400] approached me at Americans for safe [01:21:57.900] Aerospace was this documented in any [01:22:00.420] official form whether it was a police [01:22:01.920] blotter yes they had official [01:22:04.260] documentation and records from the event [01:22:05.820] that the witness held over the years and [01:22:08.940] I’m not going to ask you to do it right [01:22:09.960] now for time reasons but you would be [01:22:11.460] able to sketch what was when it’s [01:22:13.560] correct and you’ve have you seen that [01:22:14.880] before on any other equipment and or [01:22:16.739] during your flight time I have not seen [01:22:18.480] what they have described this object was [01:22:20.880] estimated to be almost the size of a [01:22:22.380] football field and I have not seen [01:22:24.239] anything personally that large okay and [01:22:26.580] then another question on follow-up [01:22:28.260] referencing the gimbal video go fast [01:22:30.239] incident can you just clarify because to [01:22:32.520] our understanding the footage was [01:22:34.320] actually cut off at a certain point but [01:22:35.880] what happens at the end of that video [01:22:37.080] just for those Americans specifically [01:22:39.060] there that are wanting to know about the [01:22:40.500] rest of that footage certainly there was [01:22:42.480] some uncertainty or um instability with [01:22:45.120] the object it seemed to rock a bit and [01:22:47.219] that’s the last uh last is you know the [01:22:49.739] video much of the data that I would [01:22:51.540] recommend be analyzed would consist of [01:22:53.400] radar data that would provide precise [01:22:56.280] kinematics on the object as well as the [01:22:58.020] fleet of objects that were operating [01:22:59.219] nearby okay and follow-up in regards to [01:23:01.560] the reporting procedures that Mr Garcia [01:23:03.659] had addressed on as well as [01:23:04.739] representative burchett with the FAA to [01:23:07.800] your understanding Pilots that are [01:23:09.420] seeing this commercial airline pilots [01:23:11.040] are they receiving cease and desist [01:23:13.380] letters from corporations for coming [01:23:15.000] forward with information in regards to [01:23:17.100] safety for potential airline passengers [01:23:19.800] I have been made privy to conversations [01:23:21.900] with commercial aviators who have [01:23:23.820] received seasoned assist orders so the [01:23:25.920] American public should know that [01:23:27.179] corporations are putting their own [01:23:29.040] reputations on the basic not the line [01:23:31.920] but ahead of the safety of the American [01:23:34.080] people and I think would you agree with [01:23:35.880] that statement appears so okay [01:23:38.640] um I guess this would be my last I’m out [01:23:41.640] of time I yield [01:23:44.340] I’ll be back [01:23:47.100] Mr maskowitz thank you Mr chairman uh [01:23:50.699] Gentlemen let’s talk about the laws of [01:23:52.320] physics for a second [01:23:54.659] uh Mr Graves and in Commander favor I [01:23:57.300] heard you talk about speed [01:23:59.040] when those objects broke the sound [01:24:03.060] barrier did they make a sonic boom [01:24:06.300] I was in a jet you can’t hear anything [01:24:08.219] it’s kind of loud in there [01:24:10.199] yeah you’re not able to actually [01:24:11.940] personally tell within the vehicle I [01:24:13.920] will say the objects that we were seeing [01:24:15.480] they were spherical and they were [01:24:17.040] observed up the Mach 2 which is a very [01:24:19.140] in non-aerodynamic shape what about [01:24:21.600] g-forces let’s talk about g-forces of [01:24:23.640] those Vehicles could a human survive [01:24:25.739] those g-forces with known technology [01:24:27.780] today no no not for the acceleration [01:24:30.179] rates that we observed okay what about [01:24:33.300] what they look like how close did you [01:24:34.920] get did you see a seam or a rivet or a [01:24:38.460] section and what I mean is obviously the [01:24:40.560] Jets you’re flying have all those things [01:24:42.540] did these objects have those [01:24:45.120] do you want to go ride I didn’t have I [01:24:46.920] didn’t have the detail to be able to [01:24:48.000] tell that [01:24:49.920] Tic Tac which people say that’s pretty [01:24:51.900] far but it’s in air ings that’s actually [01:24:53.640] relatively close no it was perfectly [01:24:55.739] white smooth no windows although when we [01:24:58.380] did take the original FLIR video that is [01:25:01.020] out there when you put it on a big [01:25:02.699] screen it actually had two little [01:25:03.900] objects that came out of the bottom of [01:25:05.340] it but other than that no no windows no [01:25:08.280] seams no nothing Mr garage as a result [01:25:10.500] of your previous government work have [01:25:12.120] you met with people with direct [01:25:13.800] knowledge or have direct knowledge [01:25:15.540] yourself of non-human origin craft [01:25:18.420] yes I personally interviewed those [01:25:19.920] individuals Mr grush as a result of your [01:25:22.679] previous government work have you met [01:25:24.120] with people with direct knowledge or [01:25:25.679] have direct knowledge yourself about ATS [01:25:28.380] Advanced Technologies that the US [01:25:29.880] government has [01:25:31.620] uh based on conventional Advanced Tech I [01:25:35.699] was briefed to the preponderance of the [01:25:38.880] defense Department’s both space and [01:25:40.560] Aerospace compartment of programs yeah [01:25:42.780] do you have knowledge or do you have [01:25:44.699] reason to believe that there are [01:25:45.840] programs in the advanced Tech space that [01:25:48.420] are unsanctioned [01:25:50.400] uh yes I do okay yeah and and when you [01:25:53.159] say that they’re above congressional [01:25:54.780] oversight what do you mean [01:25:57.300] a complicated question uh so there’s you [01:26:01.440] know some I would call it abuse here so [01:26:03.420] Congressional oversight of conventional [01:26:05.820] special access programs so I’ll use [01:26:08.219] title 10 so DOD as an example right so [01:26:10.739] 10 U.S code section 119 discusses [01:26:13.500] congressional oversight of saps [01:26:15.080] discusses uh the the depth sect def’s [01:26:17.639] ability to waive Congressional reporting [01:26:20.159] however the gang of eight is at least [01:26:22.020] supposed to be notified if a you know [01:26:23.820] waived or wave bigoted unacknowledged [01:26:25.800] sap is created and that’s Public Law [01:26:28.199] well so that how does I mean I don’t [01:26:29.820] want to cut you off but how does a [01:26:31.020] program like that get funded [01:26:33.600] I will give you generalities I can get [01:26:35.820] very specific in a closed session uh but [01:26:38.219] uh misappropriation of funds and uh does [01:26:41.340] that mean does that mean that there is [01:26:43.440] money in the budget that is said to go [01:26:45.179] to a program but it doesn’t and it goes [01:26:46.860] to something else yes I have specific [01:26:48.120] knowledge of that yep do you think U.S [01:26:49.800] corporations are over over charging for [01:26:52.920] certain Tech they’re selling to the US [01:26:54.540] government and that additional money is [01:26:56.100] going to programs correct through [01:26:57.960] something called irad okay [01:27:00.900] um [01:27:02.280] satellite imagery let’s talk about [01:27:04.560] satellite imagery we have satellites all [01:27:06.540] over the place some that we’re aware of [01:27:08.580] and many that we’re not aware of right [01:27:10.860] we’re taking pictures of everything at [01:27:13.739] every point in second uh Mr grush are [01:27:16.199] you aware do you have direct knowledge [01:27:17.820] we’ve talked to people direct knowledge [01:27:19.320] that there are satellite imagery of [01:27:22.080] these events [01:27:23.340] that was one of my primary tasks at NGA [01:27:25.620] since we uh process exploit and [01:27:28.440] disseminate that kind of information [01:27:29.960] I’ve seen multiple cases some of which [01:27:32.580] to my understanding and of course I left [01:27:34.320] NG in April so that’s my information cut [01:27:36.120] off date but I personally [01:27:39.000] um reviewed both what we call Overhead [01:27:41.520] collection and from other strategic and [01:27:43.800] tactical platforms that were I could not [01:27:46.679] even explain prosaically and I have a [01:27:48.120] degree in physics by the way as well and [01:27:50.159] I had I [01:27:52.560] I’m aware that you guys have not seen [01:27:54.179] these [01:27:55.320] um reports unfortunately and I don’t [01:27:57.540] know why is do you have direct knowledge [01:27:59.880] we had spoken people with direct [01:28:01.620] knowledge that this imagery applies to [01:28:04.440] crash sites crash crash imagery [01:28:07.980] I can’t discuss that in an open session [01:28:10.500] okay [01:28:13.199] uh do you have any information that the [01:28:15.719] U.S government is involved in a [01:28:17.520] disinformation campaign to deny the [01:28:19.620] existence of certain uaps [01:28:23.219] I can’t go beyond what I’ve already [01:28:24.840] stated publicly in my news Nation [01:28:26.699] interview because it touches other [01:28:28.380] sensitivities okay I’ll yield the [01:28:30.719] balance of my time back thank you Mr [01:28:33.480] chairman [01:28:38.760] Miss Fox [01:28:40.679] thank you Mr chairman and I thank our [01:28:42.960] Witnesses for being here today [01:28:46.020] um Mr garush in your sworn testimony you [01:28:50.340] state that the United States government [01:28:51.900] has retrieved supposedly [01:28:55.520] extraterrestrial spacecraft and other [01:28:58.560] UAP related artifacts you go so far as [01:29:02.580] to state that the U.S is in possession [01:29:04.620] of quote [01:29:06.500] non-human spacecraft end quote and that [01:29:10.320] some of these artifacts have circulated [01:29:12.239] with defense contractors [01:29:15.060] several other former military and [01:29:17.280] intelligence officials have come forward [01:29:19.080] with similar allegations albeit and [01:29:22.860] non-public settings [01:29:24.659] however Dr Sean [01:29:27.080] Kirkpatrick the director of aaro [01:29:30.480] previously testified before Congress [01:29:33.020] that there has been and I quote [01:29:36.679] no credible evidence thus far of [01:29:40.940] extraterrestrial activity or of [01:29:44.760] quote off-world technology brought to [01:29:49.260] the attention of the office to your [01:29:52.139] knowledge is that statement correct [01:29:56.400] it’s not accurate I believe Dr [01:29:59.219] kirpatrick [01:30:00.560] mentioned he had about 30 individuals [01:30:02.639] that have come to Arrow thus far a few [01:30:04.920] of those individuals have also come to [01:30:06.420] arrow that I also interviewed and I know [01:30:08.760] what they provided Dr Kirkpatrick in [01:30:10.560] their team okay I was able to evaluate [01:30:13.320] okay information I need to go on sure [01:30:16.199] but [01:30:17.520] um [01:30:18.300] my understanding that this [01:30:21.360] his statement is accurate [01:30:24.860] came from a direct quote and this [01:30:28.199] contradiction is a perfect example of [01:30:30.960] why we need to inject transparency into [01:30:34.139] our government and for another example [01:30:36.840] look no further than the pitiful [01:30:38.699] response to the Chinese spy balloon [01:30:41.659] debacle earlier this year [01:30:44.460] you may remember the mass confusion that [01:30:46.980] ensued when the balloon was first [01:30:48.659] spotted over Montana four days after it [01:30:51.540] first entered U.S airspace over Alaska [01:30:54.659] the Biden administration’s initial [01:30:56.880] inability to address the object grew [01:31:00.120] into a continuous series of [01:31:02.219] embarrassments after news of the balloon [01:31:04.739] reached the Main Street mainstream media [01:31:07.560] we were assured that the balloon posed [01:31:10.199] no threat to our security however after [01:31:13.080] the balloon was allowed to Transit the [01:31:15.239] entire continental United States fighter [01:31:18.239] jets were scrambled off the coast of [01:31:19.980] South Carolina to shoot it down [01:31:22.500] this flip-flopping and obfuscation [01:31:25.260] caused needless confusion fear and panic [01:31:28.800] across the country [01:31:30.239] It’s My Hope Mr chairman that this sort [01:31:33.239] of confusion will not be repeated [01:31:36.000] we should investigate the extent to [01:31:38.580] which elements of our government possess [01:31:41.159] or do not possess information that is of [01:31:45.540] critical value to the American people we [01:31:48.780] owe it to the citizens of this nation to [01:31:50.880] make sure that our government is [01:31:52.380] transparent and accountable we must make [01:31:56.100] sure that our government provides [01:31:57.900] answers and Congress must do its duty to [01:32:01.860] solicit those answers with that Mr [01:32:04.920] chairman I yield back [01:32:08.040] yeah Mr Frost [01:32:10.800] thank you Mr chairman in 2022 [01:32:14.699] NASA announced that it was commissioning [01:32:16.260] an independent study team to examine [01:32:18.540] uaps the NASA team is comprised of [01:32:21.000] scientists across different fields as [01:32:23.340] well as former astronauts and pilots in [01:32:26.400] May the independent study team held that [01:32:28.500] its first public meeting which included [01:32:31.080] the perspectives from NASA senior [01:32:32.940] leaders as well as perspectives from the [01:32:35.159] Department of Defense and intelligence [01:32:36.780] agencies the NASA study team is also [01:32:40.020] expected to release its first report [01:32:41.699] pretty soon and I think it’s safe to say [01:32:43.920] that we all eagerly await its results Mr [01:32:47.880] Graves how might NASA’s research [01:32:50.040] influence the commercial industry [01:32:52.020] regarding safety and UAP I think NASA [01:32:54.780] has a big role to play as far as [01:32:56.159] commercial Aviation safety and it’s one [01:32:58.020] of their original charges as an [01:32:59.880] organization one of the recommendations [01:33:02.040] that have been put forward is to utilize [01:33:03.900] their existing Aviation safety reporting [01:33:05.820] system to serve as a short-term fill and [01:33:08.460] trusted platform for Pilots that want to [01:33:10.679] report on UAP it also has built-in [01:33:13.139] analytics capability and is funded by [01:33:15.300] Congress gotcha and also Mr graves are [01:33:17.340] there any other industries that may be [01:33:19.320] influenced by the NASA research on the [01:33:21.239] uaps and and if so how so well I think [01:33:24.659] there is a a large swath of commercial [01:33:26.520] capabilities that could be brought to [01:33:27.900] bear on this topic from space-based or [01:33:29.940] ground-based sensor systems that are [01:33:31.560] available open source or through [01:33:33.000] commercial marketplaces and I think [01:33:35.280] NASA’s work as they work to identify and [01:33:37.380] highlight specific parameters that can [01:33:39.300] be found we can take that information [01:33:40.560] and and [01:33:42.120] promulgate this through the public [01:33:43.560] sector so that we can have more open [01:33:45.000] conversation about what we’re seeing [01:33:46.620] yeah you know in 2020 the Department of [01:33:49.440] Defense released several videos of uaps [01:33:52.620] um including Mr freyr’s experience U.S [01:33:55.800] Navy Pilots that recorded footage in [01:33:58.500] 2021 the office of the Director of [01:34:01.020] National Intelligence released a [01:34:02.940] preliminary report on UAP events NASA [01:34:05.820] administrator Bill Nelson stated that [01:34:07.739] NASA would begin to investigate these [01:34:09.840] events in fact I sit on science based [01:34:12.780] and Technology committee and when we [01:34:14.340] were doing a hearing with the NASA [01:34:16.260] administrator Bill Nelson I asked you [01:34:18.120] know why NASA needed to be fully funded [01:34:21.239] and there were many great reasons but [01:34:23.040] one of them was actually had to do with [01:34:25.020] uaps I mean he actually mentioned you [01:34:27.659] know is there life out there I don’t [01:34:29.159] know and so either way uh these actions [01:34:32.820] ultimately LED NASA to assemble the [01:34:35.159] independent study team that I mentioned [01:34:37.139] earlier also in 2021 Harvard University [01:34:39.960] stood up the Galileo project to research [01:34:43.139] and examine the origins of UAP so it [01:34:46.080] seems like both you know from NASA and [01:34:48.600] in the higher education Community [01:34:50.340] because of the work that you all have [01:34:52.500] done and people standing up you know I [01:34:54.719] think we’re seeing some of that stigma [01:34:57.659] um slowly going away Mr uh freyr do you [01:35:00.540] believe that military Pilots feeling [01:35:02.159] empowered to share their UAP experiences [01:35:04.679] has directly uh impacted the scientific [01:35:07.260] communities research goals on this topic [01:35:12.239] I would say yes I would say that you [01:35:14.400] know starting in 2017 when it actually [01:35:16.080] came out it took that stigma away I mean [01:35:18.480] I’ve talked to multiple Senators who [01:35:19.860] said prior to that if you’d mention UAP [01:35:21.960] you’d have been laughed off the hill and [01:35:24.600] now you’ve we’re sitting here today for [01:35:26.400] a public testimony on what’s actually [01:35:28.199] going on you know I I’m hoping that this [01:35:31.020] Curve will be more of an exponential and [01:35:33.060] we’ll get more and more transparent to [01:35:34.920] the level that we can yeah yeah and yeah [01:35:37.380] I mean it’s important I couldn’t imagine [01:35:40.199] you know I’m not a pilot but I used to [01:35:42.000] fly gliders in Civil Air Patrol uh yeah [01:35:45.659] I got yeah [01:35:49.020] um and so either way I mean I couldn’t [01:35:50.880] imagine you know being being in the [01:35:53.760] glider and seeing something [01:35:55.800] um and then not feeling like I had the [01:35:58.139] agency to talk about it [01:36:00.719] um Mr Graves can you discuss the [01:36:02.159] importance of seeking scientists to sit [01:36:03.840] on your Advisory Board absolutely I [01:36:06.239] think ultimately this is going to be a [01:36:07.679] scientific problem and not only that [01:36:09.659] it’s also an engineering problem I’ve [01:36:12.300] been working with American Institute of [01:36:13.920] Aeronautics and astronautics to help [01:36:15.300] them stand up a UAP integration [01:36:17.100] committee to help integrate their [01:36:18.540] engineering prowess into this problem [01:36:20.280] and so yes very much I think this is an [01:36:22.620] engineering and scientific problem as [01:36:24.239] much as national security problem and [01:36:26.400] how might Congress help to facilitate [01:36:28.139] Partnerships between the scientific [01:36:30.000] community and the UAP focus groups [01:36:31.980] within government [01:36:33.239] well I think one of the things they can [01:36:34.739] do is to have these types of hearings to [01:36:36.900] communicate to the public that this is a [01:36:38.699] topic of Interest I think that there is [01:36:40.679] a pseudo-market if you will of [01:36:42.300] interested capabilities and talent that [01:36:44.280] want to approach this topic and we’re [01:36:46.620] seeing that start to grow now so I think [01:36:48.239] continued conversation reduction of [01:36:49.860] stigma is going to allow that to [01:36:51.540] flourish and allow answers to help [01:36:53.159] generate themselves 100 well thank you [01:36:55.560] all for being here and thank you for [01:36:56.699] your work I think it’s important that we [01:36:58.020] keep our top scientific Minds focused on [01:37:00.780] this issue and look for ways to increase [01:37:02.940] collaboration thank you so much I yield [01:37:04.800] back Mr Comer thank you Mr chairman let [01:37:08.219] me say I want to thank you for having [01:37:10.500] this hearing and I want to thank Mr [01:37:11.820] burchett Miss Luna for leading this [01:37:13.679] hearing and with that I yield my five [01:37:15.360] minutes to Mr burchett thank you Mr [01:37:17.699] chairman I’m going to direct this I [01:37:20.040] believe to Mr grush but if any of you [01:37:22.500] all feel like you need to jump in Just [01:37:24.600] Jump Right In we’re good as the U.S [01:37:27.360] government become aware of actual [01:37:28.980] evidence of extraterrestrial otherwise [01:37:30.840] unexplained forms of intelligence and if [01:37:33.780] so when do you think this first occurred [01:37:37.080] I like to use the term non-human I don’t [01:37:38.820] like to denote origin keeps the aperture [01:37:40.860] open both scientifically [01:37:43.699] certainly like I’ve discussed publicly [01:37:46.920] uh previously 1930s [01:37:49.440] okay [01:37:50.760] can you give me the names and titles of [01:37:52.739] the people with direct first-hand [01:37:54.420] knowledge and access to some of this [01:37:57.120] crash retrieval some of these crash [01:37:59.100] retrieval programs and maybe which [01:38:00.960] facilities military bases that would the [01:38:03.960] recovered material would be in and I [01:38:05.880] know a lot of Congress talked about [01:38:06.960] we’re going to go to Area 51 and you [01:38:09.179] know and [01:38:10.560] there’s nothing there anymore anyway [01:38:12.179] it’s just you know and we move like a [01:38:14.340] glacier as soon as we announce it I’m [01:38:16.139] sure the moving vans would pull up but [01:38:18.000] please [01:38:19.560] uh I can’t discuss that publicly but I [01:38:21.960] did provide that information both to the [01:38:23.760] Intel committees and the Inspector [01:38:25.080] General and we could get that in this [01:38:26.639] gift if we were allowed to get in a [01:38:28.139] skiff with you would that be probably [01:38:29.460] what you would think sure if you had the [01:38:31.320] appropriate accesses yeah uh what [01:38:33.719] special access programs cover this [01:38:35.880] information and how is it possible that [01:38:38.040] they have evaded oversight for so long [01:38:43.139] I do know the names once again I can’t [01:38:44.760] discuss that publicly and how they’ve [01:38:46.500] evaded oversight I in a closed setting I [01:38:49.020] can tell you the specific tradecraft use [01:38:50.520] all right [01:38:52.500] when do you think those programs began [01:38:54.960] and who authorized them [01:38:58.500] I do know a lot of that information but [01:39:00.300] that’s something I can’t discuss [01:39:01.440] publicly because since many of y’all [01:39:03.719] want to jump in on any of this you’re [01:39:05.040] more than welcome to [01:39:07.260] um what level of security clearance is [01:39:09.060] required to fully access these programs [01:39:12.719] well anybody who has uh and I say that [01:39:15.360] because myself [01:39:17.400] um representing Gates and representative [01:39:19.139] Luna were basically turned away at one [01:39:22.020] point at Eglin so please go out ahead [01:39:24.739] certainly difference between member [01:39:26.760] access and say somebody like me but [01:39:28.500] anybody who has a you know tssci [01:39:30.300] clearance and meets the eligibility [01:39:31.620] criteria the access adjudicative [01:39:33.659] Authority should be able to Grant you [01:39:35.219] access [01:39:36.620] so just to be put a fine point on that [01:39:40.020] there’s nothing that you’re aware of [01:39:42.000] that’s above special access program [01:39:44.100] classification [01:39:46.500] if there’s anything actually Above Top [01:39:48.120] Secret executive order 13526 delineates [01:39:50.880] the classification levels right and but [01:39:52.679] I I draw a point on that because we can [01:39:54.540] have access to to those programs and so [01:39:57.719] the notion that we’re not being given [01:40:00.000] that access sort of defies our typical [01:40:02.400] muscle memory here in Congress thank you [01:40:03.719] Mr Merchant I’ll yield back to you thank [01:40:05.400] you Mr Gates [01:40:06.900] um along those lines title 10 you might [01:40:08.940] not know this or not but title 10 and [01:40:10.800] title 50 authorization [01:40:13.199] as they they seem to say they’re [01:40:15.060] inefficient it so who gets to decide [01:40:18.000] this in your opinion in the past [01:40:21.300] uh it’s a group of career [01:40:24.060] senior executive officials [01:40:26.280] okay are they government officials [01:40:29.719] do what both in and outs of government [01:40:32.760] and that’s about as far as all right [01:40:35.040] well that’s it leads to my next question [01:40:38.280] which private corporations are directly [01:40:40.560] involved in this program how much [01:40:42.840] taxpayer money has been invested in [01:40:44.699] these programs to your knowledge [01:40:47.219] I mean we know we know we we audit the [01:40:49.679] Pentagon every year and I’ve been here [01:40:52.080] five years and they failed the dadgum [01:40:53.639] thing every year [01:40:55.260] I lose over a billion dollars a year we [01:40:58.500] think and I’ve told the Department of [01:41:00.179] Defense maybe 60 percent of their assets [01:41:01.920] are unaccounted for whatever the heck [01:41:03.360] that means in the Public’s sector you go [01:41:06.540] to jail for that kind of crap so tell me [01:41:09.480] yeah I know when I um I’m a dollar off [01:41:11.820] of my DTS travel voucher I get hammered [01:41:14.159] but uh seems like it doesn’t work if you [01:41:15.960] sell over six if you sell over 600 worth [01:41:18.239] of stuff on eBay now you get a call from [01:41:20.100] the IRS so please what corporations yeah [01:41:23.159] I don’t know these specific metrics [01:41:24.480] towards the end of your question uh the [01:41:26.159] specific corporations I did provide uh [01:41:28.560] to the Committees in specific divisions [01:41:30.780] and [01:41:31.739] uh I spent 11 and a half hours at both [01:41:33.840] Intel committees okay has there been any [01:41:36.420] has there been an active U.S government [01:41:38.400] disinformation campaign to deny the [01:41:40.739] existence of [01:41:41.840] unidentified aerial phenomena and if so [01:41:45.000] why [01:41:46.500] it can’t go beyond what I’ve already [01:41:47.639] exposed publicly about that [01:42:03.440] okay I’ve been told to ask you what that [01:42:06.119] what that is and how to get it in the [01:42:08.040] record [01:42:09.719] which uh what have you stated publicly [01:42:12.600] in your interviews for the Congressional [01:42:14.580] Record uh yeah if you uh reference my [01:42:18.119] news Nation interview and I talk about a [01:42:20.159] multi-decade you know campaign to [01:42:23.100] um disenfranchise public interest [01:42:24.659] basically yeah thank you I apologize for [01:42:27.659] Mr chairman I yield back negative 21 [01:42:29.940] seconds thank you Mrs ocasio-cortez [01:42:34.440] thank you Mr chairman and thank you to [01:42:36.239] our Witnesses for coming here today I do [01:42:38.940] concur with the ranking members as well [01:42:40.980] as several other members here on this [01:42:42.300] committee that this is a committee for [01:42:44.280] whistleblowers and for the protection of [01:42:46.020] whistleblowers as well so we understand [01:42:47.600] what you’re putting [01:42:49.619] um on the table here and we’re putting [01:42:51.540] on the line here and we thank you for [01:42:52.500] that uh Mr Crush you sat on the [01:42:54.659] unidentified anomalous phenomenon task [01:42:56.760] force created in the 2020 ndaa correct [01:42:59.340] yes there have been some things that uh [01:43:02.219] that have been mentioned here during [01:43:03.719] this hearing that I wanted to pick up on [01:43:06.659] um Mr Graves you mentioned specifically [01:43:08.940] during the answer to one of your [01:43:10.260] questions you named Boeing contractors [01:43:13.920] um being engaged in an incident [01:43:15.659] regarding this Red Cube about a football [01:43:18.960] um football field wide I was wondering [01:43:21.239] if you could speak a little bit about [01:43:22.920] the interaction or Mr gresh either of [01:43:25.980] you the interactions between defense [01:43:27.480] contractor companies and nauap related [01:43:30.179] programs or activities [01:43:31.800] so I’ll just say that the information [01:43:33.480] about uh the contractor himself were [01:43:36.000] provided by a witness and I have no [01:43:37.560] particular detail in that relationship [01:43:39.060] Mr gresh [01:43:41.040] the kind of General unclass wave tops [01:43:43.440] certainly the contractors you know or [01:43:45.179] the metal Benders so to speak the ones [01:43:46.920] actually uh doing specific performance [01:43:49.980] on government contracts are they [01:43:51.300] required [01:43:52.380] um to issue any disclosure regarding UAP [01:43:54.900] sightings or do they engage in any uh [01:43:57.659] reporting around this uh in terms of the [01:43:59.520] contractors not that I’m aware of they [01:44:01.739] do not okay now when it comes to [01:44:05.159] notification that you had mentioned [01:44:07.320] about [01:44:08.639] um [01:44:09.440] irap program I read programs we have [01:44:13.080] seen defense contractors abuse their [01:44:17.280] contracts before through this committee [01:44:18.780] I have seen it personally and I have [01:44:22.020] also seen the notification requirements [01:44:23.760] to Congress abused [01:44:25.860] um I am wondering [01:44:27.840] one of the loopholes that we see in the [01:44:30.000] law is that there is at least from my [01:44:32.400] vantage point is that depending on what [01:44:35.460] we’re seeing is that there are no actual [01:44:37.380] definitions or requirements for [01:44:38.940] notification are there [01:44:41.699] what methods of notification Did You [01:44:44.280] observe like when they say they notified [01:44:45.900] Congress how did they do that do you [01:44:48.480] have insight into that [01:44:50.280] uh for certain irad activities [01:44:54.020] I can only think of one’s conventional [01:44:56.219] in nature [01:44:57.659] um sometimes they throw flow through [01:44:59.699] certain I’ll say sap programs that have [01:45:02.400] cognizant authority over the air force [01:45:05.400] or something and those are [01:45:06.360] congressionally reported compartments [01:45:07.920] but ired is literally internal to the [01:45:10.260] contractor so as long as it’s money [01:45:12.600] either profits private investment Etc [01:45:15.239] they can do whatever they want to put a [01:45:16.560] finer point on it when there is a [01:45:18.719] requirement for any agency or company to [01:45:21.780] notify or any agency to notify Congress [01:45:24.900] do they contact the chairman of a [01:45:27.060] committee do they get them on the phone [01:45:28.800] specifically is this through an email to [01:45:31.380] hypothetically a dead email box [01:45:34.860] a lot of it comes through what they call [01:45:36.719] the PPR periodic program review process [01:45:39.179] if it’s a you know a sap or controlled [01:45:42.119] Access program equity and then those go [01:45:43.980] to the specific committees whether it be [01:45:45.420] the SAS cast thank you [01:45:48.000] um I apologize I just my time is limited [01:45:50.940] um Mr Graves one of your main concerns [01:45:53.340] that the FAA currently does not have an [01:45:55.500] official process to receive reports of [01:45:57.480] UAP from Pilots or others correct [01:45:59.400] correct and um in your experience what [01:46:03.659] data should the Aero program prioritize [01:46:06.179] for potential collection we have you [01:46:08.639] know location date time but are there [01:46:10.440] other specific activity characteristics [01:46:13.380] that should be included in these reports [01:46:14.820] certainly I think that there’s two [01:46:17.280] categories that would be important one [01:46:19.020] would be kinematics and understanding [01:46:20.760] the specifics of how the vehicle or [01:46:22.199] objects are moving and the second would [01:46:24.300] be a more zoomed out approach of being [01:46:25.980] able to look at origin and destination [01:46:28.560] after before the incident as well as [01:46:31.080] getting a better contextual [01:46:32.100] understanding of how these uh these [01:46:34.020] objects are interact with each other [01:46:35.639] thank you now [01:46:38.280] because I only have a minute left I [01:46:39.780] apologize we only have five minutes [01:46:40.980] today but [01:46:42.719] um [01:46:43.260] for the record if you were me where [01:46:46.500] would you look [01:46:47.639] titles programs [01:46:50.600] departments regions if you could just [01:46:53.760] name [01:46:55.080] anything and I put that as an open [01:46:58.440] question to the three of you [01:47:00.900] I’d be happy to give you that in a [01:47:02.460] closed environment I can tell you [01:47:03.659] specifically thank you [01:47:06.900] um Commander fraver [01:47:08.639] I would say and I’ve told people that [01:47:10.380] you have to know where to look they’re [01:47:11.760] not going to divulge it to you because [01:47:13.199] the classification levels but if you [01:47:14.580] know where to look and who to talk to [01:47:15.780] which is exactly Mr Gresham point you [01:47:18.000] then you then you have them okay Mr [01:47:20.760] Graves I was an operator so I was [01:47:22.380] defending on folks like Mr garage to do [01:47:24.000] that homework okay thank you very much I [01:47:26.219] yield back to the chair [01:47:28.800] Mr Biggs thanks thanks Mr chairman I [01:47:31.500] thank the witnesses for being here today [01:47:32.880] I’m over here [01:47:35.480] thank you so much for being here [01:47:38.940] um [01:47:40.860] I I want to get into uh specifics here [01:47:44.880] and and a reason I’m going to go this [01:47:47.520] way is because [01:47:49.020] you’ve talked a bit about [01:47:51.179] um [01:47:51.780] what I would call misdirection by [01:47:55.520] official U.S government with regard to [01:47:58.739] uaps right [01:48:00.600] and so I’m going to get to that in a [01:48:02.219] second but last week White House NSC [01:48:04.260] spokesman John Kirby stated that uaps [01:48:06.960] are having an impact on our training [01:48:08.280] ranges and needs to be treated as a [01:48:09.840] legitimate issue do you concur with the [01:48:11.820] statements that’s for each of you yes [01:48:15.420] yes okay [01:48:18.840] um [01:48:19.560] now having said that I’m going to take [01:48:22.860] you to specific instances around the [01:48:24.600] Phoenix Valley because that’s where I I [01:48:27.300] live and in 97 we had the famous [01:48:31.260] Phoenix light case I don’t know if any [01:48:33.600] of you are familiar with that [01:48:36.119] there were there were two things that [01:48:37.800] went along with that and the explanation [01:48:40.199] was [01:48:41.400] military training range off Luke and the [01:48:44.100] Barry Goldwater range [01:48:46.080] do you know anything different other [01:48:47.400] than the official explanation of those [01:48:49.020] lights [01:48:51.179] only what’s in the public vernacular [01:48:53.040] about it that was outside the scope of [01:48:54.659] my [01:48:55.679] duties and if we wanted to just my [01:48:58.380] question along with my colleague from [01:48:59.699] New York Ms ocasio-cortez if we wanted [01:49:01.560] to find out more about that where would [01:49:04.739] we go to find the files and who where [01:49:07.320] and who would we address and are you [01:49:09.840] gonna tell me we need to go to a skiff [01:49:10.980] so you can tell us in a skiff [01:49:13.800] I could potentially give you a vector on [01:49:15.960] that that specific case I’m not I mean [01:49:17.820] I’m familiar with it in terms of public [01:49:19.139] but uh I I give you a vector in closed [01:49:21.719] environment yeah that would be good [01:49:22.860] thank you [01:49:23.880] so if if it’s true that uaps are having [01:49:27.840] an impact on training ranges and this [01:49:30.600] Administration considers it to be a [01:49:32.340] legitimate issue what steps can Congress [01:49:34.139] take to address training range impacts [01:49:35.940] and I say that having two very large [01:49:38.760] training ranges in my state and so we’ll [01:49:41.880] start with Mr gravesen going down the [01:49:43.739] panel [01:49:44.880] some of the initial procedures have been [01:49:46.800] implemented uh such as within the United [01:49:48.900] States Navy that have a range value [01:49:51.000] report that gathers information from [01:49:52.980] Pilots I understand that a service-wide [01:49:55.980] reporting mechanism is still pending [01:49:57.600] however that would be a great Next Step [01:49:59.940] not only for gathering information but [01:50:02.100] for showing the troops that is an [01:50:03.780] acceptable topic and reducing the stigma [01:50:05.580] is okay please all of you continue [01:50:08.880] yeah as a recipient of a lot of those [01:50:10.380] training range reports sometimes we only [01:50:12.780] get contextual kind of oral uh reporting [01:50:16.679] it’d be nice if they attached all sensor [01:50:18.659] data and there’s a system in place that [01:50:20.880] can handle multiple classifications of [01:50:22.860] data and that’s an issue with the F-35 [01:50:25.020] right that jet was never built to be an [01:50:26.880] ISR platform and it’s a pain in the well [01:50:29.699] to say but to get that data off so yeah [01:50:32.340] great thank you [01:50:34.380] yeah I would agree with the previous two [01:50:36.119] being a user of those training ranges [01:50:38.060] that the data has to be out there you [01:50:40.560] have to acknowledge that you’re seeing [01:50:42.000] them and then you have to collect the [01:50:43.080] data right now you get the report [01:50:44.340] someone says I saw something but no one [01:50:46.020] collects the radar data to back it up [01:50:48.060] and do research okay do you believe that [01:50:50.760] the 2019 classification guidelines for [01:50:52.500] uaps interferes with the federal [01:50:54.239] government’s ability to be transparent [01:50:56.100] with the American people and do you [01:50:58.080] think we need to be more transparent [01:50:59.340] with the American people [01:51:01.380] all of you yeah I’ll say yes to that [01:51:05.880] familiar with the the at least the UAP [01:51:07.920] task force 2019 security classification [01:51:10.380] guide I think it’s fair [01:51:12.719] um I did actually help uh author that [01:51:14.820] with the oh yeah you got a bias that way [01:51:16.920] but I will say [01:51:20.100] about declassifying videos I mean I’ve [01:51:22.440] seen some of the videos of you know the [01:51:24.360] recent shoot down and I saw no reason [01:51:26.520] that couldn’t have been released as long [01:51:28.679] as they mask you know some data the [01:51:31.260] American people deserve to see that that [01:51:32.820] imagery and full motion video [01:51:37.380] uh I would think well in my opinion I [01:51:40.380] will say [01:51:41.520] things are over classified I know for a [01:51:44.040] fact the video or the pictures that came [01:51:45.900] out in the 20 things 2020 report that [01:51:47.880] had the stuff off the east coast they [01:51:49.139] were taken with an iPhone off the east [01:51:51.060] coast a buddy of mine was one of the [01:51:52.260] senior people there and he said they’re [01:51:53.280] originally classified a tssci and my [01:51:55.679] question to him was what’s tssci about [01:51:57.360] these they’re an iPhone right literally [01:51:59.639] off the vacapes that’s not tssci so [01:52:01.920] they’re over classified and as soon as [01:52:03.119] they do that they go in a vault and then [01:52:04.619] you all have to look for them yeah so [01:52:06.619] with the over classification that may be [01:52:09.000] one way are there other ways that the [01:52:10.560] dod or intelligence agencies are keeping [01:52:13.320] this information from the American [01:52:14.280] people or even from Congress [01:52:17.760] I think part of that has been uh not [01:52:20.280] encouraging reporting if the problem is [01:52:22.560] not something that can be measured it’s [01:52:23.760] not something that’s going to be fixed [01:52:24.840] okay very good with I’m out of time and [01:52:28.080] I thank you Mr chairman I know you’ll [01:52:29.940] bet [01:52:30.960] uh first of all without objection [01:52:32.699] representative Nick Langworthy of New [01:52:34.860] York has waved on the subcommittee for [01:52:36.840] purpose of questioning Witnesses in [01:52:38.520] today’s subcommittee hearing [01:52:40.560] and then we go to Mr Burleson [01:52:45.060] thank you Mr chairman [01:52:46.860] um appreciate you guys coming out today [01:52:48.840] testifying look I’ve been here for six [01:52:51.239] months and I’m pretty skeptical I don’t [01:52:53.940] trust anything in this town [01:52:56.040] and um and so I and I think that’s [01:52:59.280] because I’m from Missouri you’ve got to [01:53:00.900] show me right [01:53:02.460] um with that being said [01:53:04.020] um there’s been a lot of things that [01:53:05.460] have been said [01:53:07.080] um in in the public uh Mr crush and and [01:53:10.320] so I want to get down to if we can some [01:53:12.780] specifics right so [01:53:15.540] um [01:53:16.320] at one point you had said that they’re [01:53:17.940] they’re my there has been harmful [01:53:20.760] activity or Progressive activity has any [01:53:23.520] of the activity [01:53:25.440] um been aggressive been hostile that in [01:53:29.040] your reports [01:53:30.260] I know of multiple colleagues of mine [01:53:33.179] that got physically injured and the [01:53:36.420] activity and I gotta if I buy uaps or [01:53:40.619] buy by people within the federal [01:53:44.100] government both [01:53:45.360] okay so there has been activity by by [01:53:49.260] alien or [01:53:51.500] non-human technology and or beings that [01:53:55.080] has caused harm to [01:53:56.940] humans [01:53:58.320] uh I can’t get into the specifics in an [01:54:00.960] open environment but at least the [01:54:02.820] activity that I personally witnessed and [01:54:06.960] not to be very careful here because you [01:54:08.760] don’t you know they tell you never to [01:54:09.960] acknowledge tradecraft right so what I [01:54:12.000] personally witness myself and my wife [01:54:13.800] was very disturbing [01:54:17.280] okay [01:54:19.199] um one of my constituents actually sent [01:54:21.119] this next question and I figured I’d ask [01:54:23.940] it since I had the same thought you’ve [01:54:26.040] said that U.S and has intact spake [01:54:29.940] spacecraft you said that the government [01:54:31.800] has alien bodies or alien species [01:54:35.280] have you seen have you have you seen the [01:54:38.040] spacecraft [01:54:40.320] I have to be careful to describe what [01:54:42.780] I’ve seen firsthand and not in this [01:54:44.880] environment but I could answer that [01:54:46.380] question behind behind closed doors here [01:54:48.119] and have you seen any of the bodies [01:54:50.699] that’s something I’ve I’ve not witnessed [01:54:53.760] myself okay and so with that being said [01:54:56.940] you know the other statement that has [01:54:58.980] been made that was intriguing to me [01:55:00.900] because and it’s intriguing because my [01:55:03.900] my view has been that we are billions of [01:55:07.139] light years away from any any other [01:55:09.540] system and the concept that an alien [01:55:14.100] species that’s technologically advanced [01:55:16.139] enough to travel billions of light years [01:55:17.820] gets here and somehow is incompetent [01:55:20.520] enough to not survive Earth or crashes [01:55:24.020] is is something that I find a little bit [01:55:27.500] far-fetched and with that being said you [01:55:30.300] have mentioned that there’s [01:55:31.260] interdimensional potential could you [01:55:34.020] expound on that [01:55:35.639] oh yeah to answer your first question [01:55:37.380] and you know I’m here as a fact witness [01:55:39.119] an expert but I will give you a a [01:55:41.100] theoretical framework at least to work [01:55:42.659] off to kind of expose uh crashes uh [01:55:46.500] regardless of uh you know your level of [01:55:48.420] sentience right you know planes crash [01:55:50.159] cars crash and number of sorties what [01:55:52.980] however High a small percentage are [01:55:54.900] going to end in you know Mission failure [01:55:56.520] if you will as we say in the in the air [01:55:57.960] force uh and then in terms of uh [01:56:01.760] multi-dimensionality that kind of thing [01:56:03.480] the the framework that I’m familiar with [01:56:06.000] for example is something called the [01:56:08.280] holographic principle uh both uh it’s it [01:56:11.580] derives itself from general relativity [01:56:13.080] and quantum mechanics and that is if you [01:56:16.440] want to imagine uh 3D objects such as [01:56:19.080] yourself casting a shadow onto a 2d [01:56:21.540] surface that’s the holographic principle [01:56:24.060] so you can be projected quasi-projected [01:56:26.280] from higher dimensional space to lower [01:56:28.199] dimensional it’s a scientific Trope that [01:56:30.000] you can actually cross literally as far [01:56:32.159] as I understand but there’s probably [01:56:33.420] guys with phds that we can probably but [01:56:36.659] you have not seen any documentation that [01:56:38.520] that’s what’s occurring uh only a [01:56:40.320] theoretical framework discussion okay [01:56:43.560] um okay [01:56:46.199] Occam’s razor [01:56:48.360] my is that [01:56:50.820] this these aircraft have they been [01:56:53.520] identified that they are being produced [01:56:55.500] by [01:56:56.520] by domestic [01:56:58.619] um you know military and um contractors [01:57:01.800] is there any evidence that that’s what’s [01:57:03.600] being recovered [01:57:05.100] uh not to my knowledge plus the [01:57:07.320] recoveries predate a lot of our Advanced [01:57:09.360] programs that I previously am waiting of [01:57:11.219] so [01:57:12.540] um would it be safe to say that there [01:57:15.300] could be a scenario today where you have [01:57:18.139] an aircraft that crashes and because [01:57:22.500] it’s been involved in one program from [01:57:24.480] One Federal agency and the but the but [01:57:28.020] the agency that retrieves it is not [01:57:30.540] aware of that program and to them it [01:57:32.820] appears alien in origin [01:57:36.360] I mean that’s a hypothetical situation [01:57:38.040] I’m not aware of any uh historical [01:57:40.619] situation that would match that that you [01:57:42.960] described so you’re not aware it has not [01:57:45.239] happened that you’re aware of that I’m [01:57:47.219] aware of [01:57:49.739] um thank you Mr chairman I yield back [01:57:57.199] several months ago my office received a [01:57:59.760] protected disclosure from Eglin Air [01:58:02.040] Force Base indicating that there was a [01:58:03.840] UAP incident that required my attention [01:58:06.179] I sought a briefing regarding that [01:58:08.760] episode and brought with me congressman [01:58:11.219] burchett and congresswoman Luna we asked [01:58:14.520] to see any of the evidence that had been [01:58:16.800] taken by flight crew in this endeavor [01:58:18.719] and to observe any radar signature as [01:58:21.659] long as as well as to meet with the [01:58:23.219] flight crew we were not afforded access [01:58:26.580] to all of the flight crew and initially [01:58:29.699] we were not afforded access to images [01:58:32.699] and to radar thereafter we had a bit of [01:58:37.679] a discussion about how authorities flow [01:58:39.599] in the United States of America and we [01:58:41.940] did see the image and we did meet with [01:58:45.179] one member of the flight crew who took [01:58:46.860] the image the image was of something [01:58:49.080] that I am not able to attach to any [01:58:52.679] human capability either from the United [01:58:55.440] States or from any of our adversaries [01:58:57.900] and I’m somewhat informed on the matter [01:58:59.699] having served on the armed services [01:59:01.679] committee for seven years having served [01:59:03.659] on the committee that oversees DARPA and [01:59:05.639] Advanced Technologies for several years [01:59:08.760] um when we spoke with the flight crew [01:59:11.280] and when he showed us the photo that [01:59:13.260] he’d taken I asked why the video wasn’t [01:59:15.599] engaged why we didn’t have a FLIR system [01:59:18.540] that worked here’s what he said they [01:59:21.060] were out on a test mission that day over [01:59:23.340] the Gulf of Mexico and when you’re on a [01:59:26.040] test mission you’re supposed to have [01:59:27.300] clear air space not supposed to be [01:59:28.920] anything that shows up and they saw a [01:59:31.260] sequence of four craft [01:59:33.780] in a clear diamond formation [01:59:36.360] for which there is [01:59:38.820] a radar sequence that I and I alone have [01:59:42.719] observed in the United States Congress [01:59:45.540] one of the pilots goes to check out that [01:59:47.520] diamond formation and sees a large [01:59:49.860] floating what I can only describe as an [01:59:52.199] orb again like I said not of any human [01:59:54.960] capability that I’m that I’m aware of [01:59:57.420] and when he approached he said that his [02:00:00.540] radar went down he said that his flear [02:00:03.420] system malfunctioned and that he had to [02:00:05.940] manually take this image from one of the [02:00:10.199] lenses and it was not automatic [02:00:12.119] automated in collection as you would [02:00:14.699] typically see in a test mission so uh I [02:00:18.540] guess I’ll start with Commander fraver [02:00:20.880] what in how should we think about the [02:00:24.060] fact that this craft that was approached [02:00:26.760] by our pilot uh had the capability of [02:00:30.960] disarming a number of the sensor and [02:00:33.540] collection systems on that craft [02:00:36.179] well I think this goes to that National [02:00:37.619] Security side and you can go back [02:00:38.940] through history of [02:00:40.440] things showing up at certain areas and [02:00:42.300] disabling our capabilities which is [02:00:44.580] disheartening and for us I mean like I [02:00:46.860] said it it completely disabled the radar [02:00:49.020] and aircraft when I tried to do it the [02:00:50.460] only way we could see it is passively [02:00:51.659] which is how he got that image so I [02:00:53.820] think that’s a that’s a concern on what [02:00:55.560] are these doing not only how do they [02:00:56.940] operate but their capabilities inside to [02:00:59.099] do things like this and and how should [02:01:01.380] we think about for craft moving in a [02:01:04.980] very clear formation equidistant from [02:01:08.159] one another [02:01:09.500] in a diamond in all of the phenomenon [02:01:13.320] perhaps Mr grave that you’ve analyzed um [02:01:15.780] have we ever seen multiple craft in a [02:01:18.179] single formation [02:01:20.040] I have one particular case and that was [02:01:22.139] uh during the gimbal incident the [02:01:24.599] recording on the at FLIR system shows a [02:01:26.940] single object that rotates [02:01:28.800] um you hear the pilots refer to a fleet [02:01:31.020] of objects that is not visible on the [02:01:32.820] FLIR system and that was something that [02:01:34.560] I witnessed during the debrief as part [02:01:36.540] of the radar data on the situational [02:01:37.980] awareness page I would like to add [02:01:40.199] whoever Congressman there’s a small a [02:01:43.139] small bit of a uh anger I would say I [02:01:45.900] would feel that those Pilots are still [02:01:47.340] uh facing that difficulty in reporting [02:01:49.380] this topic and they don’t have the tools [02:01:50.760] to be able to mitigate this issue it [02:01:52.800] just goes to show how serious this is [02:01:54.360] and why this is such an important issue [02:01:56.280] for our pilots and for our nation it was [02:01:58.320] stated explicitly to me by these test [02:02:00.900] pilots that if you have a u of AP [02:02:03.840] experience the best thing you can do for [02:02:06.179] your career is forget it and not tell [02:02:08.580] anyone because any type of reporting [02:02:11.280] either above the surface or below the [02:02:13.560] surface does have a perceived [02:02:15.960] consequence to these people and that is [02:02:18.000] a culture we must change if we want to [02:02:19.980] get to the truth Mr chairman I I would [02:02:22.080] observe that perhaps as we as we move [02:02:25.260] forward from this hearing there are some [02:02:27.300] obvious next steps every person watching [02:02:29.820] this knows that we need to meet with Mr [02:02:32.460] grush in a secure compartmentalized [02:02:34.800] facility so that we can get fulsome [02:02:37.139] answers that do not put him in Jeopardy [02:02:38.880] and that and that give us the [02:02:40.679] information we need second I would [02:02:43.139] suggest that the radar images from that [02:02:47.400] were collected of this formation of [02:02:49.320] craft out of Eglin Air Force Base and [02:02:51.420] specifically the actual image taken by [02:02:54.420] the actual flight crew that we can [02:02:56.340] actually validate be provided to the [02:02:58.920] committee subpoenaed if necessary so [02:03:01.679] that we’re able to track how to get this [02:03:03.780] type of reporting and Analysis done in a [02:03:06.060] more fulsome way that would be my [02:03:07.500] recommendation humbly as a guest here of [02:03:09.960] the fine oversight committee I yield [02:03:11.400] back [02:03:13.580] Miss mace [02:03:16.800] thank you Mr chairman and good morning [02:03:18.840] to our Witnesses who are testifying [02:03:20.699] today I want to thank each of you for [02:03:22.080] being here to discuss a topic of grave [02:03:23.940] importance to our national security [02:03:25.880] earlier this year Chinese spy balloon [02:03:28.380] was shot down off the coast of my home [02:03:30.239] state of South Carolina since the [02:03:32.460] Roswell incident in 1947 many Americans [02:03:35.820] have wondered about the dangers of [02:03:37.440] unknown objects crisscrossing our skies [02:03:40.020] whether these are uaps or weather [02:03:42.380] phenomena advanced technology from [02:03:44.580] American allied or enemy forces or [02:03:46.320] something more out of this world [02:03:48.960] so my first question I have several [02:03:50.820] questions and I’ll I if we can just be [02:03:52.860] quick on these first two I’m going to [02:03:54.179] ask each of you the same question and [02:03:56.520] then I’ll get to each of you [02:03:57.300] individually the first one when you [02:03:59.520] reported your experiences with a UAP did [02:04:01.920] any of you face any repercussions with [02:04:03.960] your superiors yes or no no [02:04:10.860] I’ve actually never seen anything [02:04:12.119] personally believe it or not so all [02:04:14.040] right and then do do you believe there’s [02:04:16.679] an active disinformation campaign within [02:04:18.719] our government to deny existence of uaps [02:04:21.420] yes or no [02:04:22.679] I don’t have an answer to that [02:04:25.560] as previous previously stated publicly [02:04:27.659] yes [02:04:29.159] I think previously with like Project [02:04:30.719] Blue Book yes but currently I don’t [02:04:32.280] speak for the United States government [02:04:33.300] okay thank you [02:04:35.280] um I have a few questions for Mr Graves [02:04:37.679] um what percentage of UAP sightings in [02:04:39.719] your belief go unreported by our Pilots [02:04:42.480] this is an approximation based off of my [02:04:44.820] personal experience speaking with a [02:04:46.199] number of Pilots but I would estimate [02:04:47.940] we’re somewhere near five percent [02:04:49.020] reporting perhaps so like 95 basically [02:04:52.020] don’t report [02:04:53.820] seeing UAP that’s just my personal [02:04:55.500] estimate [02:04:57.119] um in the incident off Virginia Beach do [02:04:58.920] you believe the Navy took the danger to [02:05:00.540] your aircraft seriously after it was [02:05:02.219] reported absolutely [02:05:04.800] um a few questions for Mr favor as an [02:05:07.320] expert Naval aviator have you ever seen [02:05:09.239] an object that looked and moved like the [02:05:11.340] Tic Tac UAP [02:05:14.580] did the Tic Tac UAP move in such a way [02:05:16.560] that defied the laws of physics [02:05:19.020] the way we understand them yes [02:05:21.960] mini dismissed UAP reports as classified [02:05:24.960] weapons testing by our own government [02:05:26.699] but in your experience as a pilot does [02:05:29.219] our government typically test Advanced [02:05:31.619] weapon systems right next to [02:05:33.179] multi-million dollar Jets without [02:05:35.179] informing our Pilots no we have test [02:05:38.099] ranges for that [02:05:40.679] it took over 15 years for your encounter [02:05:43.440] with the Tic Tac to be Declassified do [02:05:45.480] you feel there was a good reason to [02:05:46.860] prevent lawmakers from having access to [02:05:49.080] this footage [02:05:50.219] no I just think it was ignored when it [02:05:51.960] happened and it just sat somewhere in a [02:05:54.179] file never got reported in a door it [02:05:56.940] happens a lot up here shocker Mr gresh a [02:06:00.659] couple of questions for you too sir this [02:06:02.280] morning what percentage of uaps do you [02:06:04.679] feel are adequately investigated by the [02:06:07.080] US government of the five percent that [02:06:09.060] are reported [02:06:10.800] um I can only speak for my personal [02:06:13.020] leadership over at NGA I tried to look [02:06:15.060] at every report that came through that I [02:06:17.280] could triage so do you believe that [02:06:19.560] officials at the highest levels of our [02:06:21.060] national security apparatus have [02:06:22.980] unlawfully withheld information from [02:06:25.380] Congress and subverted our oversight [02:06:27.960] Authority [02:06:29.460] there are certain elected leaders that [02:06:32.099] had more information that I’m not sure [02:06:34.500] what they’ve shared with certain gang of [02:06:36.000] eight members or Etc but uh certainly [02:06:40.080] I would not be surprised okay you’ve [02:06:42.659] stated that the government is in [02:06:43.800] possession of potentially non-human [02:06:45.719] spacecraft based on your experience and [02:06:48.900] extensive conversations with experts do [02:06:51.540] you believe our government has made [02:06:52.860] contact with intelligent [02:06:54.420] extraterrestrials [02:06:57.139] something I can’t discuss in public [02:06:59.520] setting [02:07:02.280] um okay and I can’t ask when you think [02:07:04.139] this occurred if you believe we have [02:07:07.139] crashed craft uh stated earlier do we [02:07:09.840] have the bodies of the pilots who [02:07:11.460] piloted this craft [02:07:13.320] as I’ve stated publicly already in my [02:07:15.179] news Nation interview biologics came [02:07:17.400] with some of these recoveries yeah [02:07:20.400] um [02:07:21.659] were they I [02:07:22.920] can or non-human biologics [02:07:25.380] non-human and that was the assessment of [02:07:27.420] people with direct knowledge on the [02:07:29.040] program I talked to that are currently [02:07:30.300] still on the program and was this [02:07:32.520] documentary references video photos [02:07:34.880] eyewitness like how would that be [02:07:37.320] determined [02:07:38.639] the specific documentation I would have [02:07:40.980] to talk to you in a skiff about gotcha [02:07:44.040] um okay [02:07:45.719] you may or may not be able to answer my [02:07:46.980] last question and maybe we get into a [02:07:48.480] skiff at the next hearing that we have [02:07:50.040] but who in the government either what [02:07:53.159] agency sub-agency what contractors who [02:07:57.420] should be called into the next hearing [02:07:59.520] about uaps either in a public setting or [02:08:02.099] even in a private setting and you [02:08:03.659] probably can’t name names but what [02:08:05.040] agencies or organizations contractors [02:08:07.380] Etc do we need to call in to get these [02:08:09.239] questions answered whether it’s about [02:08:10.619] funding what programs are happening and [02:08:12.960] what’s out there I can give you a [02:08:14.940] specific cooperative and hostile witness [02:08:17.280] list of specific individuals that were [02:08:20.699] in those and how soon can we get that [02:08:22.500] list [02:08:23.520] I’m happy to provide that to you after [02:08:24.840] the hearing super thank you and I yield [02:08:26.699] back [02:08:30.780] okay now we have Mr langworthy’s here [02:08:37.619] okay [02:08:38.960] thank you very much uh I’d like to thank [02:08:41.940] uh all of the witnesses for being here [02:08:44.340] today uh to discuss this very unique [02:08:46.500] topic and I’d like to jump right into my [02:08:48.780] questions if you don’t mind uh Commander [02:08:50.639] fraver can you briefly describe your [02:08:52.980] background [02:08:55.739] yeah it was a enlisted Marine Naval [02:08:58.380] Academy graduate Navy flew for 18 years [02:09:01.679] got a master’s from University of [02:09:03.540] Houston and I’ve worked in the private [02:09:05.940] sector for the last what now 19 16 years [02:09:09.420] 17 years I do a lot of Defense work [02:09:13.260] so really gold-plated credentials uh [02:09:15.960] Commander fraver have we have all seen [02:09:17.940] the floating Tic Tac video uh that you [02:09:20.699] engage with on November 14 2004. can you [02:09:24.900] briefly talk about why you were off the [02:09:26.940] coast of San Diego that day [02:09:28.739] yeah we were at a workup with all the [02:09:31.260] battle groups so we integrate the ships [02:09:32.880] with the carrier the airwing with the [02:09:34.199] carrier and we start working so we’re [02:09:35.400] doing an air defense to hone not only [02:09:37.679] our skills but those are the USS [02:09:39.000] Princeton when they had been tracking [02:09:40.739] them for two weeks the problem was that [02:09:42.239] there was never manned aircraft Airborne [02:09:44.099] when they were tracking them and this [02:09:45.420] was the first day and unfortunately we [02:09:48.060] were the ones that were born and went [02:09:49.080] and saw it [02:09:50.099] do you remember the weather that day was [02:09:52.500] it cloudy or windy or anything out of [02:09:54.659] the ordinary on the Pacific coast it was [02:09:56.340] actually if if you’re familiar with San [02:09:58.139] Diego was a perfect day light winds no [02:10:00.239] White Caps clear skies not a cloud it [02:10:02.639] was for flying it was the best [02:10:05.340] now is it true that you saw in your [02:10:07.560] words a 40-foot flying Tick-Tock shaped [02:10:10.920] object that’s correct or for some people [02:10:13.080] that can’t know what a Tic Tac is it’s a [02:10:15.179] giant flying propane tank [02:10:17.219] fair enough did this object come up on [02:10:20.340] radar or interfere with your radar or [02:10:23.159] the USS Princeton the Princeton tractor [02:10:26.400] the Nimitz tractor the E2 tracked it [02:10:28.560] we’d never saw it on our Radars our Fire [02:10:30.599] Control radar has never picked it up the [02:10:32.760] other airplane that took the video did [02:10:34.560] get it on a radar as soon as it tried to [02:10:36.179] lock it it jammed the radar spit the [02:10:37.560] lock and he rapidly switched over to the [02:10:39.360] targeting pod which you can do in the uh [02:10:40.860] in the F-18 [02:10:42.420] from what you saw that day and what [02:10:44.400] you’ve seen on video did you see any [02:10:46.020] source of propulsion from the flying [02:10:47.760] object including on any potential [02:10:50.280] thermal scans from your aircraft no [02:10:53.040] there’s none there’s no IR plume coming [02:10:55.320] out and Chad who took the video went [02:10:57.840] through all the EO which is black and [02:10:59.340] white TV and the IR modes and there’s no [02:11:01.440] visual signs of a promotion it’s just [02:11:02.820] sitting in space at twenty thousand feet [02:11:05.040] in in your career have you ever seen a [02:11:07.260] propulsion system that creates no [02:11:08.760] thermal exhaust no [02:11:11.580] can you describe how the aircraft [02:11:13.500] maneuvered [02:11:15.000] uh abruptly uh very determinate it knew [02:11:19.739] exactly what it was doing it was aware [02:11:20.940] of our presence and it had acceleration [02:11:22.980] rates I mean it went from zero to [02:11:24.540] matching our speed and [02:11:26.340] no time at all [02:11:27.840] now if the fastest plane on Earth was [02:11:30.060] trying to do these Maneuvers that you [02:11:31.619] saw would it be capable of doing that no [02:11:35.219] not even close [02:11:37.920] and just to confirm this object had no [02:11:40.199] wings correct no wings [02:11:42.840] now was the aircraft that you were [02:11:45.179] flying was it armed [02:11:46.920] no never felt threatened at all [02:11:50.159] if if the aircraft was armed you believe [02:11:52.560] that your aircraft or any aircraft in [02:11:54.780] possession of the United States could [02:11:57.300] have shot the Tic Tac down [02:12:00.300] I’d say no just on the performance it [02:12:03.179] was just left [02:12:04.500] in a Split Second [02:12:07.440] it looks like [02:12:09.239] we have a problem here that needs [02:12:11.159] further investigation [02:12:13.260] yes [02:12:15.360] uh [02:12:16.580] in your belief is this [02:12:19.619] this flying Tic Tac I mean is this is it [02:12:22.080] capable of being the product of any [02:12:25.199] other Nation on the Earth [02:12:27.179] no I actually I said like I said earlier [02:12:29.040] I think it defies current Material [02:12:30.420] Science and the ability to develop that [02:12:31.980] much propulsion and I know there’s been [02:12:34.080] some physicists of them calculations [02:12:35.340] which is beyond anything that we have [02:12:38.699] well either the United States has an [02:12:40.800] adversary here in this world that we [02:12:44.159] don’t know or we really have some [02:12:45.659] serious investigations to do I I really [02:12:47.699] appreciate you being here [02:12:49.860] um is there anything else about the [02:12:52.139] November 14 2004 incident that you think [02:12:55.860] is important for this committee to know [02:12:57.420] that you haven’t been asked here today [02:12:59.579] no I I you know it’s it’s been said it’s [02:13:01.800] probably the most credible UFO sighting [02:13:03.420] in history based on all the sensors that [02:13:05.579] we’re tracking it and then for us to get [02:13:07.079] Visual and to go against the naysayers [02:13:09.659] it’s something on the screen or whatever [02:13:11.639] I mean there’s four sets of human [02:13:13.079] eyeballs we’re all very credible of the [02:13:15.480] six of us that were involved in the [02:13:16.920] thing including the video every one of [02:13:18.420] us is going to do 20 plus years in the [02:13:19.920] military in very responsible positions [02:13:21.840] so I’d say the world needs to know that [02:13:24.480] this it’s not a joke thank you very much [02:13:27.179] for your testimony here today for all of [02:13:29.159] you and I yield back Mr chairman Mr [02:13:31.739] Douglas [02:13:33.840] thank you Mr chairman and thank you all [02:13:36.420] for being here and the courage it took [02:13:38.460] to come forward and and again the [02:13:40.500] sacrifice that each you have made [02:13:42.780] um I serve on the national security [02:13:44.280] subcommittee for the financial services [02:13:46.020] committee so I really want to stay in [02:13:47.579] the National Security Lane uh if I may [02:13:50.400] um so when we think about traditional [02:13:51.780] adversaries and both us towards them and [02:13:55.380] them towards us you know we probe their [02:13:58.079] capabilities we look for weaknesses uh [02:14:00.719] and we we collect that data that [02:14:02.460] reconnaissance for in the in the event [02:14:04.920] we need it in the future [02:14:07.079] um [02:14:08.040] for each of you yes or no question based [02:14:11.400] off of your own experience or the data [02:14:13.380] that you’ve been privy to is there any [02:14:15.780] indication that these uaps could be [02:14:18.500] essentially [02:14:20.060] collecting reconnaissance information Mr [02:14:22.320] Graves [02:14:23.760] yes Mr grush Fair assessment yeah Mr [02:14:27.360] fraver very possible [02:14:29.219] again in the National Security of aim is [02:14:31.980] it possible that these uaps would be [02:14:34.500] probing our capabilities yes or no Mr [02:14:36.480] Graves yes Rush yes Craver definitely [02:14:40.679] is it possible that these uaps are [02:14:42.780] testing for vulnerabilities in our [02:14:44.699] current systems yes [02:14:47.159] yes possible [02:14:50.460] do you feel based off of your experience [02:14:52.679] and the information that you’ve been [02:14:53.880] privy to that these UOP uaps provide an [02:14:58.739] existential threat to the National [02:14:59.880] Security of the United States Mr Graves [02:15:02.040] potentially yes sir potentially [02:15:05.579] same answer potentially yeah I’d say [02:15:07.560] definitely potentially Mr Graves and [02:15:09.900] fraver you know in the event that your [02:15:12.239] encounters have become hostile would you [02:15:14.579] have would have would you have had the [02:15:16.079] capability to defend yourself your crew [02:15:18.540] your aircraft absolutely not sir no [02:15:23.820] is based off of the information that [02:15:26.280] you’ve been privy to is there any [02:15:28.020] indication that these uaps are [02:15:30.239] interested in our nuclear technology and [02:15:31.980] capabilities yes [02:15:35.300] by external observation sure that could [02:15:37.980] be a fair assessment yeah yes [02:15:41.400] is there any indication that department [02:15:42.900] of energy is involved in UAP data [02:15:46.079] collection and housing I don’t have an [02:15:48.060] answer [02:15:49.020] I can’t confirm or deny that in a public [02:15:50.639] setting and could you do it in a in a [02:15:53.159] secure setting [02:15:54.840] yes Mr favor no I don’t know [02:15:59.099] Mr chairman [02:16:00.900] um [02:16:01.500] you know I think I’m the last member to [02:16:03.599] go but there clearly is a threat to the [02:16:07.260] National Security of the United States [02:16:09.179] of America as members of Congress we [02:16:12.300] have a responsibility to maintain [02:16:14.760] oversight and be aware of these [02:16:17.280] activities [02:16:18.360] so that if appropriate we take action [02:16:21.960] I would encourage the chairman to demand [02:16:24.420] that we have any and all but in [02:16:27.119] particular Mr grush talk to us in a [02:16:30.060] skiff [02:16:30.840] and if that access is denied I will [02:16:34.139] personally volunteer to initiate the [02:16:37.139] Holmen rule against any Personnel or any [02:16:40.460] program or any agency that denies act [02:16:43.979] access to Congress Mr chairman with that [02:16:46.979] I will yield the remainder of my time to [02:16:49.260] my fellow colleague from Tennessee Mr [02:16:51.420] Bircher [02:16:55.200] thank you Mr chairman thank you Mr ogles [02:16:57.179] for the great questions brother [02:16:59.460] um Mr grush I might have asked this [02:17:01.559] before but I want to make sure do you [02:17:03.000] have any personal knowledge of someone [02:17:04.320] who’s possibly been injured working on [02:17:06.540] Legacy UAP reverse engineering [02:17:09.660] yes okay [02:17:12.479] um [02:17:14.399] how are they injured was it is it [02:17:17.219] something like a radioactive type [02:17:18.960] situation or something we didn’t [02:17:20.340] understand I’ve heard people talk about [02:17:23.300] Havana syndrome type incidences what was [02:17:27.059] your recollection of that I can’t get [02:17:29.700] into the specifics but you could imagine [02:17:31.200] assessing an unknown unknown uh there’s [02:17:34.260] a lot of potentialities you can’t fully [02:17:36.960] prepare for how do you think we ought to [02:17:38.880] handle UAP whistleblower complaints like [02:17:40.979] yours in the in the future [02:17:43.080] yeah there were some issue issues mine [02:17:45.240] so you know PPD 19 process it goes to [02:17:47.880] the Intel committees uh either through [02:17:50.160] ppd19 or icd-120 there’s not a good way [02:17:53.580] for the intelligence Community Inspector [02:17:55.920] General to provide that to other [02:17:57.660] committees and I asked my information to [02:18:01.559] be sent to the House and Senate armed [02:18:03.599] services committee because there are [02:18:04.979] title 10 equities at play but there was [02:18:07.320] no smooth process to do so yeah it’s a [02:18:11.160] trash can [02:18:13.200] um are you aware of any individuals that [02:18:15.000] are participating in reverse engineering [02:18:16.559] programs for non-terrestrial craft [02:18:19.080] personally yes [02:18:21.240] uh you know anything to be willing to [02:18:23.280] testify if there were protections for [02:18:25.139] them [02:18:26.160] certainly closed door and assurances uh [02:18:29.700] the breaking their NDA they’re not going [02:18:31.500] to get administratively punished for so [02:18:34.439] yeah I yield Mr chair [02:18:37.620] thank you um I’m going to do something a [02:18:39.780] little bit out of the ordinary here [02:18:41.040] we’re going to give three people a [02:18:43.139] chance at an additional three minutes so [02:18:45.000] Mr [02:18:46.500] merchant do you want to keep going [02:18:51.359] why don’t you come back to me Mr [02:18:52.800] chairman [02:18:54.540] Miss Luna if she’s on is she on that [02:18:56.639] list [02:18:59.580] sure chairman I’d like to submit for the [02:19:02.399] record an article by news nation and it [02:19:04.979] follows Mr grush’s full interview for [02:19:07.380] the record [02:19:08.219] without objection thank you [02:19:10.880] Mr grush [02:19:13.080] why is it that you referred to the [02:19:15.479] phenomenon as non-human intelligence why [02:19:18.120] deviate from the basis of [02:19:19.740] extraterrestrial life [02:19:21.300] I think the phenomenon is uh very [02:19:26.099] complex and I like to leave an open mind [02:19:28.139] analytically to specific origin [02:19:31.019] when you say specific origin are you [02:19:33.599] referring can you elaborate on that for [02:19:35.160] those that might if it’s a traditional [02:19:37.859] extraterrestrial origin or something [02:19:40.080] else that we don’t quite understand [02:19:42.859] uh from either biological or [02:19:45.240] astrophysics perspective yeah I just [02:19:46.920] like the [02:19:47.939] keep an open mind on what it could be [02:19:49.439] yeah okay and referring to your new [02:19:52.080] interview you had referenced specific [02:19:54.660] treaties between governments [02:19:57.000] um article 3 of the nuclear arms treaty [02:19:59.280] with Russia identify as uaps it [02:20:01.260] specifically mentions them to your [02:20:03.060] knowledge are there safety measures in [02:20:04.740] place with foreign governments or other [02:20:06.300] superpowers to avoid an escalatory [02:20:09.060] situation in the event that a UAP [02:20:11.820] um malevolent event occurs [02:20:14.460] uh yeah you’re referring to actual a [02:20:16.979] public treaty in the U.N register uh [02:20:19.500] it’s funny you mentioned that yeah the [02:20:20.760] agreement on measures to reduce the risk [02:20:22.620] of outbreak a nuclear war sign in 1971 [02:20:25.040] uh unclassified treaty publicly [02:20:27.240] available and If you cite the George [02:20:29.280] Washington University National Security [02:20:31.500] archives you will find the Declassified [02:20:34.380] in 2013 specific Provisions in the [02:20:38.880] specific uh Red Line flash message [02:20:41.939] traffic with the specific codes pursuant [02:20:45.000] to article 3 an article uh also [02:20:47.819] situation two which is in the the [02:20:50.040] previously classified NSA archive what I [02:20:53.280] would recommend and I I tried to get [02:20:55.500] access but I got a wall of Silence at [02:20:59.100] the White House [02:21:00.300] uh was the specific incidents when those [02:21:03.420] um message traffic was used I think uh [02:21:06.780] some scholarship on that would open the [02:21:08.399] door to a further investigation using [02:21:11.340] those publicly available information [02:21:12.540] thank you and then my last question with [02:21:15.120] 51 seconds remaining you mentioned white [02:21:17.819] collar crimes potentially being [02:21:20.580] um taking place in regards to a cover-up [02:21:23.700] can you please elaborate I have concerns [02:21:26.220] based on the interviews I conducted [02:21:28.319] under my official duties of potential [02:21:31.500] violations of the federal acquisition [02:21:32.939] regulations the far [02:21:35.640] thank you very much chairman I yield the [02:21:37.380] remainder of my time [02:21:39.300] okay we’ll go to Mr Raskin for three [02:21:41.399] minutes [02:21:42.540] thanks Mr chair and I think the [02:21:44.700] witnesses for their endurance and [02:21:46.800] service today [02:21:48.500] Mr favor you’ve described your episode [02:21:52.260] in detail now and you call it uh the [02:21:55.260] most credible UF site UFO sighting in [02:21:57.660] history [02:21:59.160] um [02:21:59.880] but I wonder [02:22:02.280] was this the first time that you [02:22:04.080] encountered a UFO or a UAP [02:22:08.399] in 2004 yes [02:22:10.620] yes and what was your general attitude [02:22:13.920] or [02:22:15.319] perspective on the UFO discussion before [02:22:19.560] that happened [02:22:21.420] I never felt that we were alone with all [02:22:24.479] the planets out there but I wasn’t a UFO [02:22:26.760] person [02:22:27.720] I wasn’t I wasn’t watching History [02:22:29.280] Channel and mufon and all that [02:22:31.560] and [02:22:33.000] um have you had experiences or [02:22:34.979] encounters since that happened [02:22:37.260] no [02:22:39.000] um and so have you formed any general [02:22:43.439] conclusions about what you think you [02:22:45.120] experienced then [02:22:47.040] yes I think what we experienced was like [02:22:50.700] I said well beyond the Material Science [02:22:52.200] and the capabilities that we had at the [02:22:53.700] time that we have currently or that [02:22:55.500] we’re going to have in the next 10 to 20 [02:22:56.760] years [02:22:58.319] very good Mr grush [02:23:00.720] um you’ve been able to answer in great [02:23:02.580] detail on certain questions and then [02:23:04.319] other things you say you’re not able uh [02:23:06.899] to respond to can you just explain where [02:23:09.180] you’re Drawing the Line uh what’s the [02:23:11.460] basis for that yeah based on my dopser [02:23:13.680] Security review and what they’ve [02:23:16.200] determined that is unclassified [02:23:18.899] I see so you’re answering any questions [02:23:21.600] that just call upon your knowledge of an [02:23:23.880] unclassified questions but anything that [02:23:26.700] relates to classified matters you’re not [02:23:29.580] commenting on in this context in an open [02:23:32.100] session but happy to participate in a [02:23:33.840] closed session at the right level yeah [02:23:35.160] okay [02:23:37.200] um and Mr Graves you’ve said that there [02:23:39.899] are dozens of fellow Pilots military [02:23:43.260] Pilots are there also commercial pilots [02:23:46.140] who’ve uh encountered the same the same [02:23:50.760] kind of sightings that you described [02:23:52.260] before [02:23:53.340] they are similar Pilots commercial [02:23:55.200] pilots have uh less range and less [02:23:57.540] sensors to be able to reach out and look [02:23:59.220] for objects over a wide swaths of [02:24:00.960] airspace and so Pilots are seeing them [02:24:03.600] commercial pilots RCM and they’re [02:24:04.859] typically closer and the range of what [02:24:06.780] they’re seeing is is pretty large [02:24:08.880] what is the most Vivid concrete sighting [02:24:13.020] with the naked eye [02:24:14.720] of the objects that you described before [02:24:17.280] the cube-like objects certainly I think [02:24:20.040] the most uh Vivid sighting of that would [02:24:21.780] have been near a near mid-air that we [02:24:23.640] had at the entrance to our working area [02:24:25.080] one of these objects was completely [02:24:27.420] stationary at the exact entrance to our [02:24:30.060] working areas not only geographically [02:24:32.100] but also at altitude so it was right [02:24:34.680] where all the Jets are going essentially [02:24:36.240] on the Eastern Seaboard the two aircraft [02:24:38.760] flew within about 50 feet of the object [02:24:41.220] and that was a very close visual [02:24:43.020] sighting and you were in one of the [02:24:45.060] aircraft I was not I was there when the [02:24:47.340] pilot landed he canceled the mission [02:24:49.020] after and I was there he was in the [02:24:51.180] ready room with all his gear on with his [02:24:52.800] uh mouth open and I asked him what the [02:24:55.260] problem was and he said he almost hit [02:24:56.580] one of those darn things he said he was [02:24:58.380] 50 feet away from it yes sir and his [02:25:01.080] description of the object was consistent [02:25:03.240] with the description you gave us before [02:25:06.060] a dark gray or a black Cube inside of a [02:25:08.340] clear sphere inside of a clear sphere [02:25:10.920] yes um and with no self-evident [02:25:14.640] propulsion system no wings no IR energy [02:25:17.700] coming off of the vehicle [02:25:19.500] um nothing tethering it to the ground [02:25:21.000] and that was that was primarily what [02:25:23.460] we’re experiencing out there I’m over [02:25:25.680] time thank you very much for your [02:25:27.060] service and I yield back to Mr chairman [02:25:29.100] very good Mr Burchette [02:25:31.620] thank you Mr chairman this is for all [02:25:33.359] three of you all starting with Mr grades [02:25:35.520] why did you come forward on this issue [02:25:37.979] I came forward because I felt that my [02:25:40.080] colleagues did not have a way to [02:25:41.399] mitigate the safety threat and I wanted [02:25:42.899] to help them I was trained as an [02:25:44.880] aviation safety officer by the Navy and [02:25:47.280] this seemed it just it just felt right I [02:25:49.500] felt like I had to help the folks that [02:25:50.819] were still flying and dealing with this [02:25:54.300] purely a sense of Duty I first sworn [02:25:57.240] oath when I was a Cadet 18 years ago and [02:25:59.160] I I still uphold that even out of the [02:26:01.140] uniform Commander [02:26:03.840] that was pestered by a friend and I [02:26:07.500] asked why and he said you’re the one [02:26:09.300] person that they can’t discredit and [02:26:10.800] you’ll add credibility to the New York [02:26:12.300] Times article and so after about six [02:26:14.580] times I said okay [02:26:20.040] um [02:26:20.819] this town isn’t um made unfortunately by [02:26:24.300] people like you all [02:26:25.740] we thank you and I do want to also thank [02:26:27.780] the people in the audience and people [02:26:29.280] that are watching this it can’t be [02:26:30.660] people all over the world that have kept [02:26:32.700] this issue alive you’ve endured [02:26:34.380] criticism [02:26:35.780] and derogatory remarks and we’re trying [02:26:39.540] to get to the bottom of it and so God [02:26:40.979] bless y’all thank you all so much we [02:26:43.380] really appreciate you guys and gals [02:26:45.780] um [02:26:49.680] that’s why we need term limits y’all [02:26:51.420] keep clapping those politicians just [02:26:52.979] keep talking so [02:26:54.920] let me ask you all how can the public [02:26:57.240] contribute to UAP reporting and what [02:26:59.640] Avenues you think are available to the [02:27:01.200] public to report these sightings [02:27:03.359] well right now I don’t think there is a [02:27:05.160] lot of public options for the every man [02:27:07.680] to be able to report on this I think [02:27:09.960] even for professionals that have sensor [02:27:12.240] data that are seeing these on a regular [02:27:13.979] basis they’re still hesitant to come [02:27:15.420] forward and so for the general public I [02:27:17.700] think encouraging the conversations that [02:27:19.680] we’re having today looking for [02:27:21.240] Technology Solutions that can be [02:27:22.680] distributed so the objective data can be [02:27:24.840] gathered is the first place to go Mr [02:27:26.819] garage I’ll just touch on The [02:27:28.859] Whistleblower side if it’s I do [02:27:30.600] encourage you know current former [02:27:32.399] military intelligence community in [02:27:34.080] Industry contractors to come forward in [02:27:36.240] a legal way either through the IC or DOD [02:27:39.540] or whatever the cognizant’s ig’s are [02:27:42.420] um to lead you know lead you know join [02:27:44.880] me in this discussion [02:27:46.979] commander and I I guess I should say [02:27:49.680] this for the record my daddy was [02:27:51.840] United States Marine Corps First Marine [02:27:53.819] Division so overall yes sir he was old [02:27:56.760] school him and chesty puller on pillow [02:27:58.620] so thank you brother wow yes um I’m not [02:28:02.280] I’m not anything like my daddy he was [02:28:04.020] incredible I’m very mediocre to say the [02:28:06.600] least but go ahead you seem to be doing [02:28:08.160] fine yeah uh for me uh you know I was an [02:28:11.580] accident investigator so the biggest [02:28:13.020] thing to learn and I think that [02:28:14.040] Witnesses need to to do is one don’t try [02:28:16.920] and make the fish bigger than it was [02:28:18.840] stick to the facts write it down and [02:28:21.420] don’t speculate what you think it is [02:28:22.859] because old school your decision just [02:28:24.240] write the facts down we can get all the [02:28:25.979] facts together and we can start to [02:28:27.060] investigate and get a real honest story [02:28:28.560] instead of it was this big thank you all [02:28:31.140] and I want to thank everybody we made [02:28:32.580] history today [02:28:33.840] Mr chairman I yield [02:28:36.180] thank you much Mr Garcia [02:28:39.180] I think I know now we’re going to be [02:28:40.500] making some closing uh remarks and so I [02:28:42.479] just wanted to say a few things first uh [02:28:44.399] to our Witnesses I want to thank all of [02:28:46.260] you for uh for being here with us today [02:28:47.880] uh I know that um it takes a lot a lot [02:28:50.460] of Courage [02:28:51.660] um you’re telling [02:28:52.920] um a really important information to [02:28:54.660] this committee and I just want to thank [02:28:55.740] you also for your all three of your [02:28:57.720] service to our country [02:28:59.340] um I also want to just note that today’s [02:29:00.960] hearing [02:29:02.280] um was both important but also serious [02:29:04.319] and I want to thank our subcommittee [02:29:07.319] chairman Mr groffman I think for for [02:29:08.819] running a very fair and substantive [02:29:10.859] hearing I do want to thank the committee [02:29:12.780] staff on both sides for the amount of [02:29:15.600] work that it took to put this hearing in [02:29:17.460] place [02:29:18.240] um and certainly to all the members that [02:29:19.500] have been involved in this issue prior [02:29:21.720] to prior to the hearing I also want to [02:29:24.479] note for our Witnesses and for the [02:29:26.100] public that I’m I’m a freshman member of [02:29:28.380] Congress and I’ve only been here for [02:29:29.580] seven months but this is by far the most [02:29:31.800] bipartisan conversation and discussion [02:29:35.520] that I have seen happen in the Congress [02:29:37.740] and I think that a topic of this [02:29:40.859] significance as it relates to our [02:29:42.240] national security as it relates to [02:29:44.520] information that we’re trying to gather [02:29:46.020] for the for the for the American public [02:29:47.939] uh does bring people together and I [02:29:50.280] think that’s been really great uh to see [02:29:52.859] um I think it’s also important to note [02:29:54.359] for the public we today in our hearing [02:29:56.280] we had on our side also both are full [02:29:59.840] ranking member which is Mr Raskin and [02:30:02.640] our vice ranking member which is Miss [02:30:04.460] ocasio-cortez uh both here at our [02:30:06.720] hearing I think it shows the importance [02:30:08.160] and seriousness that our side of the [02:30:10.620] aisle is taking to this important [02:30:12.600] hearing but also the broader issue as it [02:30:15.240] relates to working with our Republican [02:30:17.220] counterparts on this committee I want to [02:30:20.420] additionally add that I think and I [02:30:22.680] encourage I think it’s really important [02:30:24.060] that we have and continue these [02:30:26.040] discussions and these hearings clearly [02:30:28.439] there’s a lot of information that we [02:30:30.060] don’t know but it’s also very clear that [02:30:32.580] we have to continue our investigation [02:30:34.140] and accountability on asking the right [02:30:36.420] questions and ensuring that they’re part [02:30:37.979] of the public record one thing that was [02:30:40.439] important today is some folks might [02:30:42.780] wonder you know why are we asking [02:30:44.399] questions that might already be out [02:30:45.840] there or that have been asked before [02:30:47.160] it’s important that they’re asked and [02:30:49.080] put into the public record as it relates [02:30:50.640] to this committee and so I want to thank [02:30:52.020] you for [02:30:53.040] um you know answering some questions [02:30:54.060] multiple times I know not just in maybe [02:30:56.340] meetings you had with some members but [02:30:58.380] also here in in the public [02:31:01.140] let me also just add an additional note [02:31:03.479] that it’s important also that our [02:31:06.840] um our friends in the media and those [02:31:08.580] that are not just reporting on this [02:31:10.080] hearing but that reporter on this topic [02:31:12.300] that may in the future the media has an [02:31:14.399] important role uh in this process and [02:31:16.979] it’s very important that the media [02:31:18.240] engages does independent investigation [02:31:20.760] and reports on not just what happened [02:31:23.640] today but what they what they see [02:31:25.740] independently as what has happened [02:31:27.479] around uaps in the broader community [02:31:30.120] that is also an important [02:31:33.060] um public benefit that we have in trying [02:31:35.580] to get the information and the facts as [02:31:37.380] it relates uh to this [02:31:39.780] let me also just say finally that as a [02:31:42.479] as a teacher and an educator in a long [02:31:45.420] time [02:31:46.460] a long time teacher and researcher that [02:31:49.560] I also really believe in following facts [02:31:51.899] in doing your homework and making sure [02:31:54.720] that you follow science uh as we as we [02:31:58.080] try to get as much information as [02:31:59.100] possible and so I want to thank you all [02:32:00.359] for for agreeing to do that today [02:32:02.660] transparency is a Cornerstone of [02:32:04.740] government we live in a vast Galaxy a [02:32:08.399] lot of unanswered questions and thank [02:32:10.140] you all for being here today Mr chairman [02:32:13.080] thank you [02:32:14.819] um I’d like to one more time thank Mr [02:32:17.819] Merchant Ms Luna for bringing this to [02:32:20.040] our attention it’s a topic that has [02:32:22.260] interest me since I was in school it was [02:32:25.500] a very Illuminating uh hearing obviously [02:32:28.740] I think several of us are going to look [02:32:30.600] forward to getting some answers in a [02:32:33.240] more confidential setting I assume some [02:32:36.060] legislation will come out of this [02:32:38.359] uh I [02:32:41.280] I’m sure I apologize Mr chairman I need [02:32:44.040] to compliment the folks in my office [02:32:45.899] that did a lot of the work on this of [02:32:48.000] Rachel and Noah sitting behind me here [02:32:50.040] they’re very quiet and humble but if [02:32:52.080] without them this thing would not have [02:32:53.460] come off like it did so I apologize [02:32:55.340] thank you [02:32:57.180] um I think we’re going to want to look [02:32:58.800] into what we can do to make more of this [02:33:01.080] information public [02:33:03.060] I think there’s certainly a time period [02:33:05.160] after which it should always be made [02:33:06.660] public and people have been concerned [02:33:08.700] about these issues like I said since I [02:33:11.160] was in high school [02:33:13.080] um [02:33:13.920] but in any event like to thank everybody [02:33:16.680] who was here sticking through through [02:33:18.899] the entire hearing without objection the [02:33:21.600] members will have five legislative days [02:33:23.220] to submit materials and to submit [02:33:25.260] additional written questions for the [02:33:26.640] witness Witnesses which will be forward [02:33:28.680] to the witnesses for their response if [02:33:31.080] there’s no further Business Without [02:33:32.520] objection the subcommittee stands [02:33:34.920] adjourned