hynek-1977-detroit-interview-whisper

J. Allen Hynek — 1977 Detroit radio interview (WJR / WXYZ-era call-in)

• Speaker: J. Allen Hynek, long-form radio interview with call-in segment, Detroit, 1977. ~1h27m.
• YouTube: https://youtu.be/YI0siOzOag0 (Eyes On Cinema upload)
• Captured: 2026-05-29 via yt-dlp audio download → Whisper (speech_to_text_remote.py).
• Primary for hynek-blue-book-scientist. His mature, post-Blue-Book views in his own voice: the debunker role, his investigative method, the Blue Book files release, the candidate hypotheses (incl. parallel-reality, which he labels “fanciful”), and the ridicule/underreporting theme.
• NOTE: Whisper auto-transcript; verify any quote against the audio before load-bearing citation.

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And I guess there has been new interest rekindled because of the incredible success of a movie called Close Encounters of a Third Kind, for which Dr. Hynek was a technical consultant, made a cameo appearance as a matter of fact. And we thought it might be interesting to peruse with him some of the reports over the last 30 years and the information that he has sifted through and see what he really thinks about it all. Some of his credentials, well, he for years headed up the Air Force’s investigations into unidentified flying objects. He himself was a debunker for a very long time. You remember the marsh gas explanation for the sightings in Washtenaw County and in Hillsdale 10 years ago? That was Dr. Hynek’s idea. He, until very recently, was professor of the astronomy department at Northwestern University. He’s the head of the Center for UFO Studies in Chicago, and he has devoted a good portion of his life into studying the phenomenon known as UFOs. Dr. Hynek, on a very snowy, blowy morning this Friday in Detroit, we’re pleased that you are here. Welcome. Well, I’m glad to be here. I wanted to correct two minor points. One is I did not head up the Air Force thing. I was a consultant to them, and I still am professor of astronomy at Northwestern. I have one more year to go there before the calendar catches up. I thought I read something just this morning. I’ve been advertising all week long. I thought I’d read something just this morning that said that you had resigned. I resigned my chairmanship. I was chairman for 15 years, yes. Okay. Still with Northwestern. Oh, yes, still with Northwestern, right. Unidentified flying objects have been popular since 1947, 1948, when the first bevy of them were sighted. Before that, were there any reports in history as far as you’re concerned of UFOs? Oh, yes. There were many reports, but they’re so hard to track down. Even now, if a report is more than, let’s say, a year or two old, it’s hard to track down. But, of course, clear back to biblical times. Ezekiel’s wheel would have been a good example, and Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus. All through history, there have been reports and stories of strange sights in the sky and on the ground. But I have my hands so full with the present ones, I mean the current ones, that it’s hardly any point to worry about the others. How do you go about investigating a UFO report? You get a report of a sighting. If it sounds reasonable to you, do you then contact the people and do an in-depth interview with them? Oh, not only the people, but a lot of peripheral material. We have an outgoing watch line, and we have a full-time paid investigator. Calls come in, and we get through our police hotline. We get several calls a day, certainly. He then contacts not only the original witnesses, but the police departments in that area, the FAA, the Weather Bureau, NORAD, radar installations. In other words, he does everything he can to break it down into a normal thing. Who are you talking about now? I’m talking about our paid investigator, Mr. Alan Hendry, who is the chap who does a very fine job in tracking down. And then, of course, we have a core of investigators around the country who we can enlist on a volunteer basis. Are there some that are just so ridiculous and seem so unlikely to be anything worthwhile that you just simply, after the initial evidence, you don’t bother investigating them any further? Well, it’s the ones that are unlikely. The strange ones are the ones we really find we have to investigate. The ones that we don’t have to investigate are so typical. For instance, we’ll get stories that are generated by these advertising planes, the planes that have these rotating marquee lights. From a distance, those look like a rotating disc, but we can spot them. And Mr. Hendry has the phone numbers of some 70 airplane advertising companies. And all we do is call those places and ask them, did you have a plane at that point at that time? What we do in this publication you have under your elbow there, the International UFO Reporter, each month we publish, if you take a look at the back page, each month we publish a map of the United States in which we plot all the cases that have come to our attention. Those that we can solve, we put in as we plot as dots. Those that we can’t solve, we plot as stars. Of course, it’s the stars we’re interested in. But you can see also that the dots far outnumber the stars. People simply are not aware of the number of purely normal things that a person can see in the sky. Now, what’s an IFO? The dots are IFOs. Those are identified flying objects. And you’ve got, looking at the map, it looks as though there were three or four identified flying objects spotted in the Detroit area. Oh, I’m sure. Each month. Now this, I think maybe, and I want to mention this several times, maybe a good starter right now. You started out with the introductory music from Close Encounters. Which title, by the way, was my title? I call this the $18millionmoviewitha$1,000 title because that’s all I got for the title. You described this to me on the phone a month ago or so. Well, actually three weeks ago, but let’s do it again. Let’s go back to the beginning. What does a close encounter mean? A close encounter is a sighting that is close, and by close I mean within a few hundred feet, less than 500 feet generally. In other words, there should be little chance of misidentifying it with a Venus or a twinkling star. I mean, it’s close by. And I divided them purposely into three kinds. Close encounters are the first kind, the second kind, and the third kind. The first kind is close, but nothing really happens outside of the fact that people get frightened, and it’s quite an experience for them. The close encounters of the second kind are those in which some sort of physical residue, not a part of a UFO. We still don’t have a front bumper from a UFO or anything like that. But we do have hundreds of cases, and I mean hundreds, of cases in which at the precise spot where the UFO is seen, there is a burnt ring or holes in the ground that obviously don’t seem to be coming from anything else, broken tree branches, animals affected. Animals affected how, sir? Well, they’ll get tremendously panicky. Cattle will stampede, for instance, or horses will raise a fuss in the barn. And we’ve had cases of, of course, dogs wildly barking, and that’s not terribly exciting. But we’ve had cases of a bull, for instance, that was tethered to an iron rod through its nose and got so frightened it dumped the iron rod in half. So that I’d say is an animal effect or an effect on the animal. And we have, at the Center for UFO Studies, we have now published a catalog of some 800, 1100 now, of such cases. Okay. This UFO reporter, this monthly that you release for a dollar, we’ll get to in just a few minutes. I want to talk to you, though, about the much-celebrated release of information by the Air Force. For years, the Air Force kept a lid on all this UFO information. In People magazine in August 1976, in a big article about you, you said the Air Force will open its UFO files and it will make juicy reading. Well, look, that’s a year and a half ago. Nothing startling has come up. President Carter indicated, or at least U.S. News and World Report magazine indicated that President Carter this year would make some sort of announcement about UFOs. Nothing, there’s always been an awful lot of smoke but no fire. What is it? Well, the only solid thing that’s come out of that, see, President Carter asked NASA to undertake a study of UFOs and they very politely refused. And they had good reasons, but I would like to talk about those later. The Air Force did, or the National Archives did, release the files of Project Blue Book, on which I was consultant for a good many years, and that is incorporated in my new book, which is very modestly called The Hynek UFO Report. What I do there is, I think that does, many of those do make juicy reading. Juicy not in the usual newsstand sense, but juicy in the sense that it shows how the Air Force really bungled many of the cases and did a very real job of keeping cases from the public. Why? Why would they do that? Largely because they were operating under a very strong recommendation from the CIA, which convened a panel, a special panel in 1953 called the Robertson Panel, in which I was an associate member, incidentally. The CIA was not frightened of UFOs, they were frightened of UFO reports. They were afraid that the public might panic, and at that time particularly they were terribly concerned about subversive elements in the country. And they thought that these subversive elements, the communists, might use the whole UFO phenomenon, the UFO clubs and UFO organizations, as fronts for subversive activities. So they strongly recommended that the Air Force do everything it could to debunk the situation. You were one of the major debunkers. I was one of the major debunkers. I mean, because I thought that the whole thing was a lot of junk. Have you changed your mind? Yes, I certainly have. Significantly? Oh, absolutely significantly. Otherwise I wouldn’t be heading up the Center for UFO Studies. Do you believe that many of these UFO reports are not only real, but that are extraterrestrially directed? There are three basic theories of the UFO today. One, the first of course, is that it is complete nonsense. Second is that they are extraterrestrial vehicles. And the third is that they really represent something from another dimension, a parallel reality. There may be four or five others that I don’t know about. Oh, there are some fanciful ones, very fanciful indeed. All of these are fanciful, except the first one I think is fanciful too. There are some people who speak of our future coming back to look at us. And the thing that would certainly be sheer, sheer science fiction. That sounds like science fiction. Can you even buy the concept of that, our future coming back to look at us? No, I can’t. Time machine stuff? No, I can’t. What’s the parallel reality? Well, that’s an intriguing concept. It shouldn’t bother us so much because good heavens, I don’t know which particular religion you happen to be, but all of our major religions and great philosophers and prophets of the past have all told us that the physical world is not the whole thing, that there are other planes of existence. Where do angels exist, for instance? The Bible’s full of angels, for instance. Well, that would be an example of parallel reality. Or another more practical example is right now, even though we’re in a radio studio, there are passing through this room television pictures that we can’t see, but it represents a sort of a parallel reality. Okay. Another dimension, put it that way. There’s nothing too fanciful about that. Well, there’s nothing fanciful about it from the sense that it’s been discussed for a long time, but when you stop and think about it, it doesn’t make any sense at all. A two-dimensional thing, something that has no depth, that doesn’t make sense to me. And why would it appear suddenly? No, not a two-dimensional, but a four or five-dimensional. Why would it suddenly appear in ours, in our three-dimensional world? An interface. Have you ever read this little, seen this delightful little book called Flatland by A. Square? Yes. And there, you see, it brings it down by one dimension. And it talks about creatures, triangles, octagons, hexagons, and squares that all live on a large sheet of paper. And I think it’s the triangles have precedence over the squares, and when a triangle meets a square, the square’s got to give way. And one day, a sphere comes to visit them. You remember what happens to these people that live in the two dimensions. They first see it as a point, and it enlarges it to a large circle, and then it disappears again as a sphere passes through that sheet of paper, you see. And all you have to do, and I say all you have to do, is just up that by one dimension. Instead of a two-dimensional, we’re three-dimensional. And a four-dimensional thing would appear to us magically. It would appear by magic, much like the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland. Remember? The Cheshire Cat that disappeared, leaving only its grin? Well, it went into another dimension. Marsh Gas. You invented, you coined the word, ten years ago or so. I want to talk about that. And get on the telephone, too, with some listeners who have been very patiently hanging on. Our number is 875-4476. And Dr. Hynek will answer your calls. Okay, we’ll see what you have to say. Any close encounters you might have had, or would like to have. You have been holding on the line very patiently. What is it you’d like to ask Dr. Hynek? Yes, good morning, Dr. Hynek. Good morning. Yes, I have two questions. Number one, under the United States Freedom Information Act, how does a United States citizen obtain a copy of the Project Blue Book? All right, that’s available. It’s a little expensive, but it’s available in 94 reels of microfilm that run you about $1,000ifyouwantthose.However,tha{t}^{\prime }spreciselywhatIdid.Igotthose94reelsandhaveextracted,takenout,youmightsay,thejuicypartsandpublishedthemintheDellpaperback,theHynekUFOReport,whichoughttobeavailableinbookstoresaroundhere.Andtha{t}^{\prime }syoureasiestwayofgettinginformation.Ifyouwanttospend$1,000 and buy the 94 reels of microfilm from the archives, fine. But that’s a little on the expensive side. And my second question is, if a group of men had designed a prototype of an electronic magnetic ion propulsion engine, where would you recommend they go in order to get a patent on this development? Well, you introduced the term patent there. It’s always a wise idea to have one’s ideas protected by patents because the world is full of unscrupulous people. I’ve never had a patent in my life. I’ve had many copyrights, but not patents. I expect a patent lawyer would be the first person to see about that. Apart from that, I would certainly contact some people in NASA in Washington and say that you have this thing, and they undoubtedly would be interested. Now, they’re basically a very honest group, and I don’t think they would steal your idea. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Hello. You’re on the radio. You’re on WJR with Dr. J. Allen Hynek. Yes. About three years ago at an Air Force installation on the East Coast, there appeared three unidentified flying objects over the ocean. Now, the Air Force security people, the base commander, all the people on the Air Force base, the people in the surrounding towns saw these objects. A frantic call was made to an Air Force base for a fighter investigation. People at the fighter base said, don’t worry about it. They watched these UFOs for about two hours. There were three of them. They didn’t know the size of them or the distance that they were away because they were over water and they had nothing to judge them by. They stayed there approximately two hours and then took off. Now, they took off at a speed that must have been about five to ten times the speed of a rocket taking off. Now, have you heard about that and can you explain it? Well, first of all, I certainly couldn’t explain it other than calling it a UFO, but let’s always remember that the U in UFO simply means unidentified. Right. Now, I had not heard. We may have. We have in our computerized data bank some 60,000 reports, printouts of that. If you, for instance, wanted to know what cases there were in your own neighborhood or in your county or something of the sort or your state, we can have a printout of that, but I don’t have the computer bank with me here, so I don’t know that particular case. You know, one thing we forgot, J.P., is we forgot, when we were talking about the UFO reporter, we forgot to give the address to where people might get it, and I’d be delighted to do that. I’m sure you just want to ask me where one can get it. I was going to give it for you, but I don’t see it on here. 924 Chicago Avenue? That’s right, or just simply Evanston, Illinois is sufficient. We’re well enough known there. UFO reporter, Evanston, Illinois, we’ll take that. The zip is 60202, however. That’s always important. Let me add this. Now, that is going to cost you a dollar a copy. It’s a monthly, yes. It’s $12ayear,adollaracopy.Lessthanadrink.Sir,letmeaskyouthis,andIwanttogetontotheweather,andthenw{e}^{\prime }llgetbackonthetelephonewithsomefolks.Didyouwitnessthese?Hello?Didyouseethese?No,sir.Ididnotpersonallyseethese,butIwasinformedbyveryreliablesources,people.Okay.Wehadhopedthismorningtogetsomedirect,firsthandreports.Yeah,andIthinktha{t}^{\prime }sonethingwewanttotellthelisteners,andthati{t}^{\prime }stheirscientificdutytoreportthingsthattheyfeelwerereally,trulypuzzling,becausewehaveverygoodevidenceattheCenterforUFOStudiesthatnineoutoftenpeoplewhohavehadaUFOexperiencehavefailedtoreportitsimplybecausetheyfearedridicule.Right.Ridiculeisaveryrealthing.Itcertainlyis.Sir,thankyouforcalling.Thankyouverymuch.Okay,w{e}^{\prime }llbeonthetelephoneinjustacoupleofseconds.Wewouldliketo,believeme,ifyouhavefearedridicule,andyouthinkyo{u}^{\prime }veseensomethingthatfrightenedyouorstartledyouthatyoucould{n}^{\prime }texplainandyoudid{n}^{\prime }ttellanyoneaboutit,theanonymityofthetelephoneandtheradioisyours.Tha{t}^{\prime }snotaneasywordtosayatthishour.Thatwastobe17before8.OnWJRwithDr.Heine.Yes,IcalledtosaythatIthink{I}^{\prime }moneofthenineoutoftenwhoneverreportedasighting.Itoccurredabout10.30atnightonacold,windy,rainyspringnightaboutayearago.AndIwasproceedingonahighwayandsawahugeredlightupahead.Andmyfirstthoughtwasthatthiswaspossiblythetoplightofanewantennaor,youknow,towerthattheyhadputanobstructionlighton.Itwashuge.AndasIproceedednorthonthehighwayandthelightcametowardme,Icouldseethatitwasnotonelightbuttwolightswhichhadmergedasoneatadistance.Andbetweenthetwolightswerepossiblyafaintgreenlightandthenjustmaybeahazygraylightoneachsideofthegreenlightinthecenterandthen,ofcourse,thetworedlightsontheouterside,whichwerehuge,bytheway,andthentwo,like,spotlightswhichwerecrisscrossingoneachsideoftheredlight.Wow.Whatavividdescriptionthatis.Well,I^{\prime }mgladyo{u}^{\prime }rereportingit.Now,youdodemonstrateonething,whichIhavelongagocalledtheescalationofhypothesis.Whenpeopledofinallyreport,theywillsay,atfirstIthoughtitwasanaccidentontheroadandthatthelightwasaflasherbeacon.ThenIrealizeditwas{n}^{\prime }tthat,andthenIthoughtitwasmaybeanaircraftcominginandsoforth.Peopletrytoexplainittothemselvesfirst,andthenthe{y}^{\prime }vesortofdrivenuptothewallandtheyrealizethattheyca{n}^{\prime }texplainit.Now,howlongdidthiswholethinglast?I^{\prime }dliketoaskyou.Okay,letmeputitthisway.IturnedoffI-75ontoahighwaygoingdirectlynorthandsouth,myhomebeingexactlyfourmilesaway,andIproceededprobablyhalfamilewhenIsawtheredlight.Now,i{t}^{\prime }salittlehillyinthisarea,andIsawtheredlight.WhenIfinallytraveledmaybeanothermileandahalf,whichwouldbetwomilesawayfrommyhome,Igotaverygoodlookatit,butofcourseitwasdark,about1030atnight.Itwasblowing,raining,youknow,typeofevening,andIgotagoodlookatit,putitapproximatelyattwocrossroads,andIlostmytrainofthought.Well,Itellyouwhat.Iwouldverymuchliketohaveyouandanyotherlistenerwhoisoneofthenineoutoftentowriteitupandreportit,senditintotheCenterforUFOStudiesinEvanston,Illinois,andweoperateasaclinic,youmightsay.Weneverdivulgethenamesofpeoplewhoreporttous,sothatyourreportistreatedcompletelyconfidentially.Wereleaseyournameonlywithyourpermission,soyoudo{n}^{\prime }thavetoworryaboutthat.Okay,Dr.Heineck,oneoftheclaimsmadewhenItoldwhatIhadseentofriendswasthatthiswasanadvertisingplane,andofcoursethisseemedridiculoustomeat1030intheeveningwitharainy,blowingnightthatanadvertisingplanewouldbeout.Well,1030intheeveningwould{n}^{\prime }tbebad,buttherainy,blowingnight,andalsotheydo{n}^{\prime }tfly.Howlowweretheclouds,doyouimagine?No,thatIca{n}^{\prime }ttellyou.Now,therewasnofog,butofcourse,obviouslynostarsarevisible,ther{e}^{\prime }snothinginthesky,andtheredlightsaresohuge,IhavelookedconstantlyeverynightIgooutandIseeifther{e}^{\prime }saplanewithredlightsaslargeasthis.Itwouldbealmostlikeastoplightupinthesky,andIlostmytrainofthought.Howdiditdisappear?Well,okay,thenatthatpointIwasheadingnorthonthehighwaytogohome,andIcontinuedthetwomilesandraninthehouse,gotapairofbinoculars,jumpedbackinthecar,andwentbackdowntheroad,butitwasgone.Andofcourse,asIsaid,myfirstthoughtthatitwasthelightontopof,theobstructionlightontopofanewtower,buthavinglivedintheareafor10years,I^{\prime }vesincelooked,andobviouslyther{e}^{\prime }snotowerthere.Howclosedoyouthink,Iknowjudgingdistancesatnightisverydifficult,buthowclosedoyouthinkitmayhavecometoyou?Okay,IpinpointedthespotwhereIgotagoodlookatitatapproximatelylikeaquarterofamileaway,oratleastwherethetworoadscrossedaquarterofamileaway.Well,thatdoes{n}^{\prime }tmakeitacloseencounter,butitmakesitagoodnocturnallight.Okay,butonthebasisoftheskimpyinformation{I}^{\prime }vegivenyou,itdoes{n}^{\prime }tstrikeyouasanadvertisingplane,doesit?No,notfromwhatyo{u}^{\prime }vesaid,andtheweatherseemstoargueagainstthat.ButtheonlythingwasthatIcouldseenoformbecauseitwassodark.AllIcouldseewerethesehugelightswiththetwospotlightscrisscrossingattheouterendoftheredlight.Ido{n}^{\prime }tsupposeyouloweredthewindowandlistened,didyou?No,Idid{n}^{\prime }t,becauseitwasrainingandblowinghard.Yeah,well,pleasedosendthatreportintotheCenterforUFOStudiesinEvanston,Illinois,60202.Nowther{e}^{\prime }sanotherone,ifyouhavethetime,whichisveryshort.Canyouhangonforjustahalfasecond?Yes,Ican,goahead.Okay,I^{\prime }vegottotakecareofalittlebusinesshere,andw{e}^{\prime }llbebackonthetelephone.Wewanttogivesomeoftheotherfolkswh{o}^{\prime }vebeenhangingonachancetoo,okay?Wouldyoumindcallingusbackalittlelater?Noproblem.Ithinkyoudowantthecloakofanonymity,sojustgoaheadandtellDr.Heinecke{r}^{\prime }sstory.Ido{n}^{\prime }tmindgivingthelocation.ThiswasonOctober2,1973.I^{\prime }mreadingsomenotesthat{I}^{\prime }dwrittendownacouple,threeyearsago.Itwasat10.15p.m.,anditwasaboutfivemilesnorthofRoute270onRoute23incentralOhio.Now,Icommutethisrouteforlikenineyears,andsoitwaseasytospotsomethingoutoftheordinary.Andtherewasa,Ihavewrittenhere,anovalwhitewithareddish-greenglowtotheleftoftheroad.Itwasaboutaquarterofamileofftheroad,probably100to200feetintheair,soitwas{n}^{\prime }tveryfarup.Itwasabrightnight,soyoucouldseetheshapeofitagainstthesky.Itwasprobablyabouta20-degreeellipseshape.I^{\prime }vewrittenthatitwasprobablyabout40feetacross,30to40feetacross.Igotprettyexcitedatthetime,soIdid{n}^{\prime }tstop.ButIdidhavethephenomenon,Iguessyo{u}^{\prime }dcallit,ofhavingmyautomobilequitrunningproperly.Thelightsdimmed,andthemotorbegantomisslikewheni{t}^{\prime }srunningoutofgasforjustafewmoments,andthenitstartedrunningagainfine.AndIpulledinthestatehighwaypatrol,andIgotapatrolmanout,andwebothlookedatit.AndIaskedhimifitwassomethingthatheknewabout,andhesaidonlyfromphonecallscomingin.AndIcould{n}^{\prime }treallyunderstandwhyanythinglikethatwouldbearoundOhio,exceptthatitoccurredtomethatthisisPerkinsObservatory.Oneofthebigradiotelescopeswouldhavebeenlessthanahalfmilefromit.IusedtoworkatPerkinsObservatoryformanyyears,andIknowtheareaverywell.Yeah,itwasrightonthehilltheycallKingmanHill.Oh,yes,Iknowthatwell.Itwasjust,I^{\prime }dsay,300yardstotheleftoftheroad,andnotveryhighup.Well,now,IdefinitelywantyoutosendthisreportintomeattheCenterforUFOStudiesin,not,asJoesaid,Chicago,butEvanston,Illinois.Andthezipis60202.Okay.Andyournamewillnotbeusedwithoutyourpermission,sodo{n}^{\prime }tworryaboutthat.Okay.Thisisaveryinterestingcase.Whatisyourtechnicalbackground,ifImayask?I^{\prime }mnotatechnician.I^{\prime }macommercialartist.Oh,well.Hey,youcoulddrawthisthingforus.Howaboutagoodsketch?Icoulddothat.Thatwouldbegreat.I^{\prime }dlikethat.Youknow,yourexperiencesoundsanawfullotlikeoneoftheepisodesfromthemovie,ClosedEncounters,does{n}^{\prime }tit,Dr.Hannigan?Yes,itdoes,exceptthatwasmovingmuchmore.Thismadenomovement.Itjuststayedstationaryintheskylikeyo{u}^{\prime }dbelookingatabig,theladydescribed,likeabigtower,buttherewasnothingsupportingit.Diditseemtobesolid,orwasitjustalight?Itseemedtobesolid,youknow,butithadanundulatingglowtoit.Tha{t}^{\prime }stheonlygoodwordIcandescribe.Ithoughtatthebeginningitwasahelicopterwithblinkinglights,butwhenyougotcloseenough,youcouldseethattheywere{n}^{\prime }tblinkinglights.Theywereundulating,glowingareasoflight,likenotdefined,sortofmoving,andthenitjustdisappeared.Youknow,itdid{n}^{\prime }tmakeanymovement.Itdid{n}^{\prime }tgooffquicklyoranything.Itjustsimplywas{n}^{\prime }tthereanylonger.Now,yousaidthepolicemanalsosawit?Yes,Ihavenowayofknowinghisname,butIdidreportittothestatepatrol,anditwastheDelawareoffice.Theyweretakingreportsthenandwritingthemdown,atleasttheytoldmetheywere.Yeah,andtheyweregettingothercallsaboutit?Atthesametime,yeah,whenIwalkedintothestation,becauseIhappenedtoberightthere.IusedtoliveinDelawareforyears,soIknowthearea.Isee.Well,Ihadwrittendowntwoorthreeothersthat{I}^{\prime }llwritedownandsendtoyou.Ihaveatape,becauseIswitchedmytaperecorderoninthecar.Tha{t}^{\prime }sverygood.Icould{n}^{\prime }tlocateitthismorning,becauseIreallyamnotsurewhereIputit,but{I}^{\prime }dliketohearitagainmyself.Well,pleasedosendmeacopyofthat,too,wouldyou?Okay,I^{\prime }llbegladto.Now,theaddressagain,forbothyouandourotherlistenersandthosewhowanttosubscribetotheInternationalUFOReporter,istheCenterforUFOStudies,Evanston,E-V-A-N-S-T-O-N,Evanston,Illinois,\mathrm{60202.60202.}Right.Thankyouverymuchforcalling.Thankyou.I{t}^{\prime }sniceofyoutodothat.Bye.FromDelaware,Ohio.Thatqualifiesasagenuinecloseencounter.Iwouldsayso,yes.Hangonforasecond.W{e}^{\prime }lltakemorecallswithDr.J.AllenHynekonourUFOCloseEncounterMorninghereonWJRDetroit.Youknow,anawfullotofpeoplearecomingoutoftheclosetthesedays.Ido{n}^{\prime }tknowwhetheri{t}^{\prime }sbecauseoftheeffectofthemovie.Alotofpeoplehaveseencloseencountersofthethirdkind.Theboxofficereportsindicatethatitwillbeoneofthebestseen,mostseenmoviesinhistory.Buttherewasasurpriseaboutthat.Dr.Hynek,explainsomethingthatyouthoughtmighthappenasaresultofthesuccessofthemoviethathas{n}^{\prime }t.Well,Ithoughtandsodidmanyothersthat,youknow,peoplewhohadneverbotheredlookingupattheskybeforewouldlookupafterhavingseenthatpictureandtheywouldmakethesamesortofmistakesthathadbeenmadebythousandsofpeople.TheywouldmistakeJupiterandVenusandmeteorsandsatellitesandGodknowswhat.Butthathasnotbeenhappening,oddlyenough.Whathasbeenhappeningisthatthepicturehasapparentlygivenpeoplecouragetoreportthingsthattheywerereluctanttoreportbefore.Andcasesthatareseveralyearsoldarecomingoutofthecloset,sotospeak.Doyouwelcomethatkindofnewsorisoldnewsjustsodifficulttofollowuponthati{t}^{\prime }shardlyworthwhile?Oh,no.Thosearetheoneswereallywantbecausethecurrentonesareapttobemistakes.Butsomethingthathappenedtoapersonfiveyearsagoandtheyremembereditvividlyisasapttobeagenuinecase.Okay.InPascagoula,Mississippi,thatratherfamouscasewheretwofishermensupposedlywentunderhypnoticregressionandtalkedaboutanexperiencewithavisitor,aspaceshiporsomething.Okay.Tellusthatstoryandtelluswhatyouthinkaboutit.Well,thatwasacasethatIinvestigated.Iwastherewithin48hoursafterithappened.Whatdidtheysayhappened?Well,thetwomenwereCharlieHicksonandCalvinParkerandwhattheysaidhappenedisthattheywerefishingonthebanksofthePascagoulaRiverandthis,I^{\prime }llmakeashortstory,thiscraftcamedownbutdidnotland.Itlanded,hoveredbehindthemandtwovery,veryoddlookingcreaturesfloateddown,liftedandfloatedCharlieHicksonbackaboardandhetoldusthataninstrumentthatlookedsomethinglikeabigeyepassedoverhimseveraltimesasthoughgivinghimamedicalexamination.WhenIgotdownthere,Ifoundthosemendefinitelyinastateofshock.Ther{e}^{\prime }snoquestioninmymindthattheythinkthishappened.Thatistothemitwasaveryrealexperience.Whetheritwasrealinoursenseofreal,Ihonestlydo{n}^{\prime }tknow.Butwhatisreal,philosophershavebeenworryingaboutthatforcenturies.Tothemitwasrealandtheycouldnotundergohypnosis.Dr.HardertriedtohypnotizeCharlieHicksonbutheresisteditandgotterribly,terriblyupset.I^{\prime }mnotsurewhatthatmeansbutifthisweretheonlycaselikethat,Iwoulddismissitoutofhand.Wehavedozensofcasessimilartothat.Matteroffact,whatisnotknown,maybeevenyoudo{n}^{\prime }tknowJoe,thatthatcasehitthepress.ButwithinafewweeksoneithersideofthatfamouscaseonOctober11,1973,therewere70othercasesofcloseencountersofthethirdkindwhichwerenotreportedtothepress.TheCenterforUFOStudies,w{e}^{\prime }vejustpublishedareportonthatcalled1973YearoftheHumanoids.Andtha{t}^{\prime }salsoobtainedwiththeCenterforUFOStudies.Nowthehumanoids,thesecreaturesthatthesepeoplesaytheysaw,dotheylookanythinglikethecreaturesasdepictedinCloseEncounters,themovie?Ohabsolutely.Isthatwhereyougotitfrom?Tha{t}^{\prime }swhereSteveSpielberggotitfrom.WhenIbecametechnicaladvisortoCloseEncountersoftheThirdKind,atfirstIwasnotgoingtohaveanythingtodowithaHollywoodmoviebecauseIfeltthatwouldreallyruinmyscientificcredibility.ButwhenIdiscoveredthatSpielberghadreallydonehishomeworkverywellandwasveryknowledgeable,hebasedtheappearanceofthecreaturesprettymuchonactualUFOreports,yeah.Fascinating.Theyalmostlooklikeanembryo.Yeah,wellactuallyIwouldtendtodescribethemmoreingeneralasovergrowngoblins.Generallylargeheads,spindlybodies,and{I}^{\prime }mnotmakingthisup.Thisiswha{t}^{\prime }sreported,yousee.And{I}^{\prime }mactingherelargelyjustasareportertellingyouwhatpeopletellme.Youwereagreatdisbeliever.Iwanttotalkaboutthatandhowmuchyo{u}^{\prime }vechanged.Dr.Hynekinaminutehere.Itwashisdoing.Hedecideditwasmarshgas.Iwanttofindoutaboutthatandjustasthereweresightingsofsomething,UFOsightings,intheAnnArborarea,alsoinDexter,andasIrecall,Hillsdale.Andyoucamein.Youwereagreatdebunkerinthosedays.YouheadedtheinvestigationteamfortheAirForce.AmIright,comingintohavealook?No,Iwastheirconsultant.Well,Iheadedtheinvestigation,thatimmediateone,yes.Yeah,welltha{t}^{\prime }swhatImeant.Andyoudetermineditwasmarshgas.Howdidyoumakethatdetermination?Oh,boy.Well,thepointisthatatthepressconference,whichtheytellmewasthelargestinthehistoryoftheDetroitPressClubatthattime,Ihadsaid,andIhaveitonrecord,thatifwelimitedourattentiontothefaintlightthatthegirlsatHillsdalehadseenintheswampyarea,theArboretum,thatthosecouldbeexplainedasswampgas.Butwhathappenedisthatthereportersapparentlyneededabuzzword.Andswampgaswasit.AndassoonasImentionedthat,theyunderlineditintheirpressreleaseanddashedofftothetelephones,andIcould{n}^{\prime }tsay,holdon,boy,tha{t}^{\prime }snotthewholestory.Swampgaswasit.AndIbelievedit.Andasamatteroffact,thefaintlightstillcouldhavebeenexplainedasswampgas,butnotthemajorsightings,notthelargethingsthatwerereported.Okay.DidtheAirForceevertellyou,look,Dr.Hynek,wedo{n}^{\prime }twanttocauseanypanic?Explainthisawayasnaturalphenomena.Well,didtheysaythattoyou?Eitherdirectlyorbyinsinuation?Byinsinuation,yes,butnotdirectly.Theynevergavemeanyspecificorders,butitwasquiteclearthattheywantedmetodothebestIcouldtoexplainitasanaturalthing.AndItried.ButtodayIwoulddoitquitedifferently.TodayIwouldsay,look,weca{n}^{\prime }tconductascientificinvestigationinthisexcitableatmospherewithreportersbuzzingaround,andyoucould{n}^{\prime }tgetahalfwaythoughtinedgewise.AndsoIwouldsayw{e}^{\prime }dhavetogatherthedata,studyitcarefully,andcomeoutwithsomesortofapreliminaryideainafewdaysoraweek,butnotonthespurofthemoment.HowmanybookshaveyouwrittenonthesubjectofUFOs?Well,thefirstonewasTheUFOExperience,inwhichIcoinedthephraseCloseEncounteroftheThirdKind.Andthenthismostrecentone,TheHynekUFOReport.IdidhaveanotheronejointlywithJacquesVall\acute{e}ecalledTheEdgeofReality.ButtheHynekUFOReport,eventhoughthetitleisnotaverymodestone,thatwasthepublishe{r}^{\prime }sidea,bytheway,isanexpose,really,oftheAirForc{e}^{\prime }shandlingbecauseIwasthereforthosemanyyears,andIsawthewayinwhichtheAirForce,thecavalierwayinwhichtheAirForcehandledthiswholeproblem.Didtheyjustoutofhandcoveritup,justwithoutanyinvestigationatall?No,theywouldmakeinvestigations,andasIpointoutinthebook,themorecertaintheywerethatitwasanaturalthing,themoretheywouldinvestigate.Theywentout,andtheywouldriganythingthatcomesinfromtheair,andi{t}^{\prime }salittledifficult,alittleface-losingtosay,look,ther{e}^{\prime }ssomethinginouratmospherethatwedo{n}^{\prime }tunderstand.I{t}^{\prime }smucheasiertosay,wedounderstand,i{t}^{\prime }sperfectlynatural,i{t}^{\prime }sswampgas,i{t}^{\prime }saircraft,andsoforth.Wasthisonadirectivefromsomepoweronhigh,theSecretaryoftheAirForceorthePresidentoftheUnitedStates,orwasthis,doyouthinkthatthisresponsibilitywasassumedbysomegenerals?Well,theProjectBlueBookandthepeoplewhoranithadajobtodo,andtheywereactingprettymuchunderthedirectiveordirectrecommendationoftheCIAconvenedRobertsonpanel,whichtheCIAwasnotafraidofUFOs.TheywereafraidofUFOreportsandthethingsthatthereportsmightdotopeople.Atthattime,thiswholequestionofsubversionwasmuchmoreintheairthanitistoday,andtheywereafraidthatthevariousUFOflyingsaucerclubsandorganizationsmightbeusedasfrontsforsubversiveactivity.Also,anotherthingthatwasveryimportant,inJulyof1952,forseveraldays,themilitarywiresbecameliterallycloggedwithUFOreports,andtheCIAwasafraidthatifsomenationwantedtolaunchanotherPearlHarbor,allthe{y}^{\prime }dneedtodowouldbetogettheiragentstospawnawholebunchoffalseUFOreports,clogthemilitarywires,andconfusethesituation.SotheCIAwasquiteseriouslyconcerned,notsomuchwithUFOs,butwithUFOreports.Motivatedwithgoodreasontodebunkthem.Yes,yes,andtheirdirectiveortheirrecommendation,Ishouldsay,wasaverystrongone,thattheAirForcedoeverythinginitspowertodebunk,playdown,holdthefort,sortofthing.Andyouwerepartofthatdebunking?Iwaspartofthat,yes.Haveyoueverseenaflyingsaucer?I^{\prime }veneverhadacloseencounter,butontwooccasionsIhaveseenthingswhichIdefinitelycouldnotexplainandhavenotbeenabletoexplaintothisday.Asanastronomyprofessor,i{t}^{\prime }sunlikelythattheywerecelestialbodies.Well,tha{t}^{\prime }sverytrue.Imean,tha{t}^{\prime }sonethingIdobelieve{I}^{\prime }mcompetenttoidentify.Althoughi{t}^{\prime }ssurprisinghowmanypeoplearenot.Thatis,peoplearestillpuzzledverymuchbyaverybrightmeteor.Eventrainedpilots.W{e}^{\prime }vehadcasesinwhichcommercialpilotshaveswervedtheirairplanesthinkingthattheywereonahead-oncollisioncoursewithsomethingthatturnedouttobeaverybrightmeteorahundredmilesawayorso.W{e}^{\prime }regoingtogetonthetelephoneagainandencouragefolks,iftheywouldliketotalktoDr.Hynek,thatwewouldliketotalktopeoplewhohavehad,tousehiscoinedphrase,closeencounters,andwewillofferyouanonymityonthetelephone.Ournumberis875-4476.Severalpeopleontheline.Haveyouhadacloseencounter?Yes,Ihave.IhavesomephotographsthatItookin1974ofaUFO,and{I}^{\prime }veneverknownwhatagencytogetincontactwiththatmightbeinterestedinthem.Well,yo{u}^{\prime }vegotonenow,and{I}^{\prime }mveryanxioustoseethephotographs.Pleasedosendthem,butdo{n}^{\prime }tsendtheoriginalnegatives.Ido{n}^{\prime }twanttoberesponsibleforthose,buthangontothose.Butletmeseetheprints,andifwewanttotheninvestigatethemfurther,thenIwouldmakearrangements,specialarrangements,toseetheoriginalnegatives.Okay,nowwhereshallIsendthem?TotheCenterforUFOStudies,924ChicagoAvenue,Evanston,Illinois,andtha{t}^{\prime }sthezipis\mathrm{60202.60202.}Okay.Thankyou.Yes,w{e}^{\prime }reontheradiohereonWJR.Dr.Hynekislisteningtoyou.Goahead.Thankyou.Dr.Hynek,Iwasinhighschoolin1947whenthisphenomenonfirststarted,andIreadoniteversince.I^{\prime }vebeentothings,I^{\prime }velecturedonit,whathaveyou.Iwanttoaskyouacoupleofthings.Irealizethereareotherpeopleontheline,so{I}^{\prime }llgetoffasquicklyaspossible.IwanttoaskyouabouttheflapinWashington,D.C.in1952,whenforsixhoursthesethingswereoverthePentagonanditgavethemasitdownthere.IwanttoaskyouaboutthepossibilitythatinWright-PattersonAirForceBaseinOhio,thattheydohave,I^{\prime }veheard,theremainsofanoccupantofaUFO.Iwanttotalkaboutthepicturesthatwedo{n}^{\prime }thavethattheAirForceprobablydoeshavewhentheywereaskedtoputcamerasinthenoseoftheirjetswhentheychasedthesethingsandtheycould{n}^{\prime }tcatchthem,atleasttheycouldtakepicturesofthem.Couldyoucommentonanyofthesethings?Yeah,veryquicklyonallofthem.The1952flaphasneverbeenadequatelyexplained.The{y}^{\prime }vetriedtocallitatmosphericinversion,buttheinversionwasnotverystrongatthattime,andsoitisstillunexplained.AsfarastheremainsorcadaversofUFOoccupantsatWrightField,Ithinkthatisjustastory.W{e}^{\prime }veneverhadany,I^{\prime }veneverfoundanyevidencethatthatwastrue,andofcourseifanyoneofourlistenershasthatinformationthatcouldbeauthenticated,Iwouldbedelightedtoknowaboutit.See,thatstoryhadgreatcurrencyacoupleofyearsago.Yeah,anditpopsupeveryonceinawhile.Yeah,right.Now,asfarastheAirForcephotographs,Itoohaveheardthat,I^{\prime }vebeentoldbymilitarypilotsthatwhentheygotbacktobase,theirguncameraphotoswereconfiscatedandsoforth,butwheneverIaskthesepeopletogotoanotarypublicandswearoutanaffidavitthatthisistrue,theysay,well,the{y}^{\prime }reamemberofthereservesortheyca{n}^{\prime }t,the{y}^{\prime }reunderoathorsomethingofthesort.Soasfaras{I}^{\prime }mconcerned,thosestillremainstories,unauthenticated,undocumentedstories.TheyhadanAirForcereport,AR200-2,whichsaidthatAirForcepilotswhohadseenanythingandtheyhadtalkedtoanyone,theydid{n}^{\prime }tmaintainsecrecy.Theywouldbeputto10yearsinprisonorafineof$10,000. You heard about that? Oh, heavens yes. That was in JNAP 146E, which is still in effect. It is so that a military pilot must report any unidentified thing, but of course their definition of unidentified is very, very broad. A new Russian aircraft would be considered unidentified. They must report, and it is quite true, they’re still under oath. considerable threat of a fine if they are allowed to talk about it if it is identified. They are not allowed to talk about it as long as it remains unidentified. I want to point out that the movie was just tremendous. From one who had been reading for years on this, I didn’t see it as science fiction, did such a good job on depicting situations that I had read about for years. One last question, sir. It seems to me that these things appear so often that their appearances can almost be predictable. Would you say that’s so? Well, we’re trying. We’re running computer studies now on this, and it appears that possibly we’ll be able to predict waves of UFO sightings in the future, but it’s still too early to say. There is certainly an unusual interest in our nuclear installations, aren’t there, by these things? Yeah, that may have a perfectly natural explanation. The military installations, the nuclear installations especially, of course, have 24-hour guards, and they’re out there watching, and they would be more apt to see something when it happens. Of course, another explanation is that they’re under surveillance, but I don’t know. Doctor, what are your thoughts as to if indeed these things are extraterrestrially directed? Why don’t they land, make themselves known? Well, that’s one of the questions. That’s the situation. They don’t. Why? Well, I suppose I could turn the question around and say, why should they? I don’t know. You might just as well ask, why do kangaroos jump? They do. You see, the hardest thing to get across in this whole field is that this is a research problem. We have lots of questions and very few answers. I might turn around and ask you, why don’t we have the cure for cancer yet? We’ve been studying it for a long while. But if so many people see these things, it just makes logical sense to say, well, they apparently mean no harm, because so far as we know, they have caused none, or at least very little. They are obviously curious, or they wouldn’t be keeping us under surveillance or having a look. Why don’t they land and make themselves known? That’s a great question. I wish I knew the answer. Hang on for a second, Doctor. This is Dr. J. Allen Hynek with us. It’s almost 845 on a snowy Friday morning in Detroit. Warming you up with talk of U.S. military that Mal wanted to know about, Dr. Hynek. Well, that’s a very good example of a close encounter of the first kind. It was very close, but nothing really happened. A young Navy man was walking home from his girlfriend’s near Exeter in New Hampshire when this brilliantly illuminated object, flashing lights and so forth, swooped down on him, and he swooped into the ditch to get away. He was panic-stricken. It then receded. He dashed to the nearest farmhouse, pounded on the door, woke the people. They called the police. The police came out, and there was nothing. Just as the police were about to leave, the object rose from behind the trees, and both policemen saw it without any question, and their life was made miserable for them by the Air Force, which refused to believe anything that they had said. And in my book, as a matter of fact, I have an account, an exchange of those letters that went between the two policemen and the Air Force, and it was really reprehensible the manner in which the Air Force tried to smear the reputation of these policemen, calling them essentially deluded and so forth. Why would the Air Force again go to such great lengths to suppress all of this? They were just under the idea, they adopted the theorem, you might say, that it can’t be, therefore it isn’t. They simply assumed that these things had to be natural, as I assumed at one time that obviously it had to be a lot of nonsense. Well, you never went into reputation-destroying, however. No, that is true. I would never do that. You know, getting UFO information, first of all, reporting it is a problem. One has to make an emotional decision, an intellectual decision, actually, whether they want to get involved or not, and as you point out, nine out of ten decide they do not for fear of ridicule and other reasons, too. In order to get some good UFO information, what do you recommend? A subscription, of course, I guess, to your… Well, yes, I think… Monthly. But let me back up on that a little bit. Even before the picture Close Encounters of the Third Kind became so popular, we’d been getting at the Center for UFO Studies many, many requests from students from various parts of the country saying that they were doing a term paper on UFOs or that they were having class discussions. And just now, with the picture, I can imagine that in the next few months, classrooms all over the country are going to be having UFO discussions. And I think it is really bad that those kids have to turn to the tabloid press and to the sleazy magazines and newsstands for their information. They ought to be able to get, especially school libraries, ought to have access to responsible information, and that can be obtained through the International UFO Reporter, which is a monthly newsletter which I edit and which, therefore, I stand back of anything that’s in it. Each month, for instance, we publish a map of all the cases that have been reported to us. Those that we can explain, we plot as dots. Those that we can’t explain, we plot as stars. And the interesting ones are summarized in the UFO Reporter. The subscription for that is $12ayear,$1 a month, and it is obtainable at the offices of the Center for UFO Studies at 924 Chicago Avenue, Evanston, Illinois, 60202, or, as a matter of fact, just simply the Center for UFO Studies, Evanston, Illinois, 60202 would suffice. How many people do you have at the Center for UFO Studies working? Oh, about 20, but most of them are volunteers because the Center is funded entirely by contribution, popular contributions, voluntary contributions, which, by the way, I want to hasten to point out, are tax-deductible. This is not a UFO club or it is not supported by the government. Incidentally, if we’re being monitored right now by anybody up there in any kind of vehicle, extraterrestrial or otherwise, and you feel like you would like to contact us, please do. Call Collect. Area code 313-875-4440. Okay, you’re on the air with the… About 10 years ago, I was driving from Ann Arbor to Jackson at dusk, and I saw a bright light from a distance, and I thought it was a barn fire because it was out in the country. And as I got closer, I realized that it wasn’t, but I still obviously thought of other things that it could be. And it was important enough that all the traffic was stopped on I-94 and pulled off on the side of the road. Well, I was in a convertible, and I was also late for a play I was going to, so I kept going, and I was also frightened, and so I kept going. But it has bothered me enough for 10 years that I’ve tried to duplicate it and tried to see something that would be similar, and I never could. And at that time, I did call the sheriff’s office, and he said, we don’t want any reports, and we don’t want to hear anything about it. And nothing happened. Go away and never come back. And it was their imagination. And I said, the traffic was stopped. There must have been 60 or 70 cars stopped. He said, lady, you didn’t see it. You know, you were really dreaming. But it was like a theater marquee. I mean, the only thing I could, in my mind, think that it was like a theater marquee, but about a three-story high building. And it was large, but the lights were blinking in random fashion. And beneath it, I thought that it was trying to repair a radio antenna or something, because there was this long thing with red lights on it, like a radio antenna. Now, was it stationary, or was it moving? It was just hovering, and there was no sound at all. And it was about 60 acres away. It was across the field, and in between, there was a fence. And I don’t think there was any noise, but my car was going. But it certainly wasn’t noise like you would think to support something that big in the air. Are you any good at sketching things? I’m not, but I am a trained observer. I have directed and produced television as a matter of fact, so I’m quite aware of visual operations. I was wondering if you could sketch me, or give me a verbal description, a written description, that is. I will send it to you, but I wondered if anybody else had ever talked about it could be since that many cars were stopped, it is possible that somebody listening to us right now is one of those people. That’s right. And it was never in the paper, and it was never reported, but I did go back to school. I was teaching at that time, and I did go back to school, and I said to one of the teachers, I have, you know, something very funny has happened to me, and I have to share it with somebody. I’ve taken my children out and tried to find this place, and there’s no radio antenna. Now that, you know, it just doesn’t disappear overnight. Right. And I just wanted some sort of physical evidence that something had been there. So I said to the teacher, I’m going to say something to you, but I don’t want you to tell anybody. And she said that she and her husband, also another teacher, had experienced something similar at a children’s camp in Maine. Something had come down to the hill while the children were on the hill. So I think there are a lot of people around that have had experiences, a lot of very educated people, but because I didn’t want to lose my job, they didn’t want to lose their job. Well, I think you raised a very, very important point there, and the movie now is making it more socially acceptable to talk about UFOs. UFOs are no longer a dirty word. And we are now getting cases at the center which are old, 5 to 10 years old, that people have been reluctant to report. And I would like to point out to our listeners that I feel it is their scientific duty to report such cases because how can we ever solve this problem if we don’t have proper data to work with? Okay, thank you very much for calling. Thank you. All right, Dr. Honig. Thank you. We’re going to take a 15-minute break here. If you are a ranking skeptic. You were a ranking skeptic. I certainly was. The fact remains that UFO reports exist. They continue to come in from all over the world and many of them come from very responsible persons. So these are the facts that you can’t controvert. Have I been misled or misinformed in thinking that there have been more UFO reports in the United States than in other foreign countries? We have a great many, of course, simply because communication is so good. But Canada, for instance, there are more UFO sightings per capita in Canada than there are in the United States. What about some of the Western European countries? Well, we have reports now from well over a hundred different countries. But reporting and communications are sometimes difficult. The language difficulties, for one thing. Governmental difficulties and others. It’s difficult to get reports from the Iron Curtain countries, for instance. Although we do. They have the same sorts of things there that we have here. Same sorts of reports. Dr. Hennig, look, I want to see a UFO. I’ve never seen one. I’ve never even seen any bright lights, to be absolutely honest with you, that I couldn’t figure out almost instantly and describe as natural phenomena. Well, you’re in good company. Our estimate is that only one out of every 40 or so people actually ever have a UFO experience. Suppose when the snow finally does stop and the weather clears up and it’s a clear night and I’m driving home or I’m sitting in my backyard and I suddenly see one of these things. What do I do? The very first thing you should do is get witnesses for your own protection because then you can say, well, look, he saw it too or she saw it too. But from the scientific standpoint, it’s extremely important to have witnesses because then when we go to investigate it, we can get the accounts of the individuals separately. And that’s what we always do. We never get them together. We interrogate people independently. But you see, I’m going to be very reluctant to call any police, for example, to call officials because I would be subject to great ridicule and I would like to avoid that. Well, after you get your witnesses, have you and have them separately write a simple narrative account of what happened. Just very simple things and the time, the duration, and then send it to the Center for UFO Studies in Evanston, Illinois. Send the zip to 60202. And there you have no fear of ridicule whatsoever because we operate something like a medical clinic. A medical clinic doesn’t give the names of its patients out and things of that sort. Neither do we. Names are not used except when we have permission to do it. Okay. So what you’re saying is you don’t necessarily have to report this to anyone in officialdom. That’s right. Okay. Send it to you and you act as a clearinghouse for all these things. How can you possibly examine, you and 20 people, all the thousands and thousands of narratives that you must get and inquiries? Well, it isn’t difficult to weed out the typical cases of sightings of meteors, airplanes, advertising planes, balloons, satellites. They fit a pattern and you can almost spot them almost immediately. Any trained investigator can spot those. We home in on the cases that are really and truly puzzling. And we spend a lot of time investigating those. I’d sure like to see one, Dr. Hynek. So would you, wouldn’t you? So would I. We’re going to talk to some people, some more people, who have had close encounters on the telephone in just a minute. Can you hear me, sir? Hello. Yes. Yes, good morning. How are you? Fine, how are you? I thought you nodded off for a minute. Yeah. What can we do for you? Well, by golly, I’d like to… First of all, the only encounter I had was a very humorous one, which wasn’t an encounter. I was driving along when I was 12 years old with my dad coming back from the doctor, and here was this at dusk, or just after dusk, here was this undulating object off in the distance just hovering. And my dad pulled the car off the road and he thought this was preposterous, you know. In fact, he was frightened. As we stood there, sat in the car and watched this thing, my dad was never shaken in his life by anything except this. And then the thing turned around and there was a beer advertisement. It was a blimp. That led me off, though, at 12 years old to follow up reports. And as I was 17 or 18, I followed up the reports and went to UFO society meetings and pseudo-religious meetings and this type of thing. A few years ago, in fact a year ago, I ran across a fellow who worked for the government, a fellow I know very, very well and very credible, the last person in the world that would come up with this, really. And he said that when we were orbiting spacemen that they were buzzed by UFOs. Is there any truth in this? Well, I’ve never been able to authenticate that. I have spoken to three astronauts who have had UFO sightings, Gordon Cooper, Jim McDivitt and Deke Slayton. Only McDivitt had his sighting in space. The other two were here on solid land. Well, Deke Slayton was in an aircraft. It’s difficult to call those people deluded or liars. But as far as anything seen on the way to the moon, no one has ever confessed that to me at any rate. I was referring to an orbit around the Earth. Well, that would have been Jim McDivitt. And there have been other reports, but I won’t believe them. I don’t accept them unless I’ve talked to the person personally and have in one way or another authenticated it. Okay, and this was a hobby with me. I’m a real skeptic, a real agnostic when it comes to this. Back in about 1957 or so, about the time Sputnik went up, I was on the mailing list for one of the societies. And I thought this was great fun. And I could see nothing based in fact. Years later, I went through all these things before I threw them out, all these tracks and pamphlets and alleged proofs. Do you know what year the Van Allen belts were discovered? Well, let’s see. It must have been one of the early satellites, so it must have been about 58 or 59. Okay. I remember looking at one of these pictures of the Earth that the society sent me. And personally, I thought they were a bunch of crackpots. But here was this beautiful line drawing of Van Allen belts. And that’s about the only thing credible I ever came up with that I would have on paper as far as that there were beings visiting us. But the rest of it made no sense whatsoever. Gee. Well, I think it’s always important to have intelligent skeptics in this whole thing. After all, you were one for a great many years, and you still are. You’re a skeptic. Well, basically, I don’t accept more than 100 of the stuff I hear. Okay. It’s a real pleasure talking to you, Doctor. Thank you. Thanks for calling. Hello? Oh, hello. Yes. I didn’t realize it was my turn. It’s your turn. about some information. This happened out in Colorado between 1949 and 1952. I was living out there, and my father’s cousin, who was an Air Force officer at that time, was transferred to Lowry Air Force Base in Denver. One weekend, he and his family came to visit us out in northeastern Colorado, and UFOs came up in the conversation. And I told my dad’s cousin about a recent article in a monthly magazine named either Pageant or Coronet that went into great detail about the inside and the outside of a UFO and its occupants. And the UFO had been found, as I remember, out in Arizona, and it had crashed. And my dad’s cousin was absolutely stunned. And he said that since all of this had appeared in a national magazine, he felt that he could say why he had been sent to Lowry Air Force Base. And he and some other officers had been brought out there to a school labeled Top Secret, and they had been learning everything that I had read in this magazine. And I don’t recall whether it was the government or the Air Force that had… They are reluctant to do so. What we need… See, this story has cropped up many, many times. If it could be authenticated, it would be a tremendously exciting thing. Jack Anderson or somebody should uncover it. But I am not going to accept it unless I have definite authentication of it. I see. Well, unfortunately, my dad’s cousin passed away a couple of years ago, and he had retired from the Air Force. I might mention, I don’t know whether it would help or not, I think it was a pageant magazine. I’m not sure. I do know that after the article appeared in the magazine, it was never seen on the newsstands again. Well, that’s a help. But you really need… If you could get an Air Force officer who went to that school, I would like that. Yes, that would be the important thing. You’ve got to have a first-hand report. Yes. Thank you for calling. You’re welcome. Thank you. Bye-bye. Yes, we’re on the radio with Dr. Hynek here on WJR. Hi. Hello. We’re from Downriver, and we were driving along our little street here. This is about 10 years ago. We see this light from the air shining down on us, and we stopped the car. One of the neighbors was on the sidewalk, and we looked up, and this was an object that was… The light that came down was yellow, of course, like a light, like a beacon. My husband has always said that if they’ve taken pictures, they’ve got our picture. He always said this. He says, well, they must be photographic. And we watched this. It was about the height of, like, where the dirgibles will fly, like the Goodyear and this sort of thing, and the blips. And so we watched it. It wasn’t very long, just maybe like a minute or two. It was like a yellow-green light, and it looked like lights on it, but I couldn’t tell that part because the light was shining down real bright. And all of a sudden, it flew to the west, and it just went. It was just like you couldn’t even snap your finger. It went that rapidly. And when it flew, it left a cone after it, like maybe if that was… I don’t know. I always figure, like, some of these airplanes that are skywriting. But this is what we saw. And I’m in the Down River. It was about 10 years ago. Now, did you report that to anybody? No, because at that time, too, we didn’t really how to even tell our family. It was around a time when, you know, the papers were debunking it, and everyone was debunking it. And so was I. And so we really didn’t tell anyone. This neighbor up the road, we don’t really know him at all, and we never did talk to him about it after that. But we saw it, and we weren’t, you know, we weren’t under the influence of anything. But it just seemed like, and again, this morning my husband says, Well, you tell him he took her picture. And that was our impression of it. Well, this brings up the very important point that many people not only are reluctant to report, but they also tell me they don’t know where to report. And the place, certainly one of the places to report is the Center for UFO Studies in Evanston, Illinois. The zip code is 60202. And the phone number there is area code 312-491-1870. Now, I will write this up, of course. I didn’t know until this morning there was a place to even write. And I’ve been listening to you since you’ve come on. In fact, I listened to J.P. when he had it the other time. And these things sound fantastic, but from what we saw, I know they’re not. I know they’re really true because we saw this one. Why don’t you write it up and send it into the Center for UFO Studies to give the address once again, Dr. Hynek? All right. It’s the Center for UFO Studies, 924 Chicago Avenue, Evanston, Illinois, 60202. Or just the Center for UFO Studies, Evanston, Illinois is probably sufficient. Their post office knows us pretty well by now. And the zip is 60202. All right. We’ll do that. Thanks for calling. Uh-uh. Bye-bye. Dr. Hynek, I’ve witnessed you this morning take several phone calls. You have taken reports of UFO sightings from literally thousands of people, maybe even hundreds of thousands of reports. Not that many, but we do have 60,000 reports. First of all, you must get weary of these. And secondly, is there a great similarity? Do all these various reports, no matter how strange they might sound, do any of them have one thing in common from which you can draw some conclusions? Well, they’re certainly similar. Let’s put it this way, that some people say it’s all imagination. Well, if it were all imagination, we ought to be able to get, we ought to be getting reports of pink elephants with roller skates or the Taj Mahal being seen in New Orleans. Or in other words, pure imagination would give us all sorts of reports. But we don’t. We get a fairly definite pattern of reports. And from different cultures, from Central Africa, from Papua New Guinea, from Brazil, from the outback in Australia, same sorts of things are reported as come from the United States and Canada, let’s say. Well, there could have been a relatively small chance for comparison between the people. Yeah, the people in Central Africa don’t read Time magazine, I don’t believe. Well, you never know. What about the saucer shape? The shape seems to have changed. Thirty years ago, when they were first reported, they were flying saucers. Well, they still are. You still have the daylight disks. Not as many today, but we seem to be getting more and more cases of the close encounters rather than the distant ones. Either they didn’t, they were afraid to report close encounters earlier, or they didn’t, there weren’t as many. But we keep getting reports, especially older ones. Now, for instance, the picture itself is bringing things out of the woodwork. We’re getting reports of abduction cases of very close encounters, the second and third kinds, that people will write to us and tell us, this happened in 1965. Abduction? Kidnapping? Well, essentially… Somebody has picked up and flown around in some sort of a spacecraft? Not flown around, no. I simply do not buy these cases where people say they took a trip to Venus in a flying saucer and came back with hair from a Saturnian dog or something of that sort. The place is covered with pseudo-religious nuts, and I guess that makes our problem that much harder. But the reports of close encounters are coming… Well, you’re talking about abduction, the typical pattern there. The classic case, of course, is the famous case of Betty and Barney Hill, but there are dozens and dozens of others. The typical pattern that has developed is that for a short time, the people have in their conscious memory the memory of a UFO experience. Then amnesia sets in. They will tell us that they didn’t know what happened for maybe an hour or two hours. They may be found farther down the road at the end of that time, and then they’re again conscious. But they’re very puzzled as to what happened in that time lapse. How many of these encounters have been reported? Oh, about 50 so far. Are they all similar? Yeah, they’re similar in this. They have this conscious period and then the unconscious. And what we’ve been doing, as far as our funds permit, is to employ regressive hypnosis. If the experience has been that traumatic, you know, it is well known that the conscious mind will block out a traumatic experience. And we’ve been getting some very, very interesting accounts from under hypnosis. Now, I haven’t the least idea how reliable we can count the things that we get when people tell us under hypnosis, but nonetheless, for what it’s worth, these stories are remarkably similar. They will report that they were taken aboard and given some sort of a medical examination. They’re generally rather hazy about it, but good people, good, true, salt-of-the-earth type people have told us this. You sound like you believe them. No, I believe that they are sincere. You believe they believe what they’re telling you. Yes, yes, I believe that. Now, whether that really… Look, I’ve always pointed out that Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus had an experience which transformed him into St. Paul, and that certainly affected the human race. But was it a real experience? Undoubtedly, St. Paul thought it was a real experience. You know, Van Donican and other writers have tried to draw parallels from biblical times and before, as a matter of fact, to the kinds of things that are happening now and indicating that we, the space chariots, etc., that we have been visited before. Do you hold with that? I don’t hold with it because, simply, well, Van Donican and the chariots of the gods, I cannot respect his scholarship. I think I’ve never been able to finish one of his books because it’s just nauseating to me. He might be right, and certainly he stirred people’s imaginations, but there’s no… The evidence that he tries to bring forth is mostly supposition and ad hoc stuff. Very flimsy conclusions. Very flimsy conclusions, I would say. Glad to see that you’re still somewhat of a skeptic. That’s healthy. You have not turned a corner. I’ve been watching you all morning long. You are very, very careful to never say, Oh, yes, I know what that is. You seem to be listening as a priest in confessional or as a psychiatrist on the couch without ever committing yourself. Why is that? Well, because if I’m true to scientific principles, you don’t say… A scientist doesn’t say he believes this, or people ask me, Do you believe in UFOs? Well, belief is a sort of theological sort of thing, and when a scientist says he believes something, he means that he has enough evidence now to think that this or that is so, and we’re still gathering the evidence. Okay, Dr. Hanek. Well, I’ll tell you this. Maybe the folks who are observing us didn’t like our conversation this morning because driving conditions have absolutely turned to glad. Metaphysical society. Do you know, Sal? Yes. Sal, how are you? Just fine. I was with Dr. Alan Hanek in 1972 in London, England, if he recalls, at the Festival of Esoteric Sciences, where there was quite a number of UFO enthusiasts from England that met him there. Do you recall, Dr.? I recall the meeting, but I met so many people at that time. That’s right. Well, my affiliation with this whole story goes back from the time of 1947, and my concern and questions were similar to J.P.’s. Why are you here? Well, eventually we were able, through an organization or a little group who would meet and rap about the possibilities of being visited, one of our members became what we call a channel through an electromagnetic beam supposedly beamed to his brain from a craft. See, now, you know, Sal, when you start talking like this, you’ll lose me. Well, just listen to this. Okay. The importance is that we were making, supposedly, a verbal communication through an individual, okay? And our concern was, why don’t you land? Okay? And their indication was that if they were to land, say, downtown the city of Detroit, 70% of the people would want to destroy them for being invaded, supposedly, by monsters. The other 30%, they indicated, would lay prone and just want to worship them as gods. So we were not prepared already for this kind of a communication with extraterrestrials. Why do people assume that, Sal? I’ve heard that before. That doesn’t make a lot of sense, I don’t think. Do you think it makes sense? Do you, Dr. Honey? Well, I suppose there are some, if they observe the human race, they know we’re a warlike group, but I don’t think that would be sufficient reason. Well, let’s put it this way. There’s 30 years of communication, supposedly, with identifying objects. I don’t call them UFOs. I call them IFOs. They are identified. There’s something in the sky. And their communication to us is that what we are seeing are scout ships as opposed to motherships, which house these scout ships. They indicate that their motherships are hundreds of miles long. That they become what we call a very science fiction phenomenon. Well, I think it would be very important to get testable information from them. If they could give us some information, for instance, if they had told us exactly what we’d find on Mars before Viking got there, that would have been beautiful, testable information. This is the sort of stuff we need. So if you are communicating with them, please ask them to give us something that we don’t know about yet. All right, let me give you something. Let me give you something that they want us to know, okay? Sure. They want us to know that we’re in a tremendous crisis, that we’re playing with toys, supposedly, that some crazy could push a button and alienate our planet. We know that already. All right, they know it, and they know that we know that, and they’re hearing their concern about us doing the thing that they’re proper. They don’t wish to play games with us. They don’t have to prove their existence. They want us to prove our own existence. Science is always looking for some belief. Let me ask you something, Doctor. When you were on the… The movie was sensational. There’s no question about it. It awakened a great deal of understanding and awareness with everyone who’s seen it. There has to be an effect. The story shows that there had been some craft that would have returned to the Earth or came back into our dimension, and then off of the great big ship came these Americans who have now returned. Is that a science fiction story? Is that an accomplishment, supposedly? That part was pure science fiction. Okay. Sal, thank you very much for calling. See you soon. Take care. All right. Okay, we’re going to go to the weather in a second. You’ve been hanging on for a long time. Yes, I really don’t care to go on the air, but I do want to report that back in 1965… Well, we’re on the air right now, then. If you don’t care to go on, I will take you off. Yes. Hello? Yeah. I’ve been waiting a long time. I’ve got to make this quick one because my operator is going to come on asking for money. Okay. When I was nine and my brother was eight, they were out in their backyard. Nobody believed us because of our ages. This was about ten years ago. I think we might have had a close encounter the second time. I don’t know. We saw a blue-white dot looked about the size of a star, and it seemed to come from off the horizon to zenith really quickly in a matter of ten seconds or so. It wasn’t a satellite. It wasn’t a meteor. It didn’t have any trail. It got right above us, exactly above us, and we were watching it, and it hovered there for about a second. It just seemed to stop really suddenly. It just stopped. And then it started to move on again. It didn’t appear to have any acceleration at all or anything. It just went from stop to start with nothing in between and disappeared below the horizon. Meanwhile, there was a second dot where it had been, and it appeared to be descending, and it got bigger but not much, and then it seemed to get smaller again. Then it split into three small dots and was descending really rapidly, and we dove for cover, and right between where we’d been standing, three things, it might have been a meteor, hit the ground, and we went out there the next day, and there were three small burn spots on the ground in the backyard. You could see the grass. It was seared, smoked up, and it was a perfect equilateral triangle. Each dot was about the size of a half dollar, and for years after that, nothing ever grew in those spots. That’s a typical story, the fact that nothing grows, but did you actually see the things fall? Yes, they fell right between us. We had a very good viewer scared out of our wits. Well, that’s quite interesting. Did you report that to anybody? Well, we reported it to my parents, and they said, go to bed, you’re dreaming. We were nine and eight. Nobody believed us. Well, it’s a little old for that report, but what is the situation in those spots now? Are they still there? We moved out of the house. I don’t know. I haven’t been back. We should go back and take a look and let me know. All right. As a matter of fact, why don’t you chronicle your report after you go back and look and write it in a letter and send it to Dr. Heineck at the Center for UFO Studies and give you the address again. Well, it’s sufficient to say Evanston, Illinois, 60202. Okay? Okay, thank you. Thank you for calling. Dr. Heineck is going to be lecturing at Eastern Michigan University this afternoon. Noon. At noontime. Close encounter. Do these things teach you anything? Do you learn anything? Every bit of information helps, I suppose. We need to get this information because otherwise, what do we… We have to have data to work with. Okay. All right, go ahead. You’re on the air. Yes, I had a close encounter when I was in my early teens around 1956, 57 near a lake near Ann Arbor, and we were visiting friends and we had gone outside. We’d been inside, and we’d went outside and we saw this dot in the sky, a light, just a, you know, a light. It was moving very fast, and it was coming from the southwest headed toward the northeast, and the man that we were visiting was a doctor and had been a doctor in the Navy, and he had a pair of really excellent binoculars, so he went in and got them. We looked through the binoculars and we saw a saucer with a dome with a slight haze on it moving very fast in the direction that I just mentioned, and after we saw it, everybody sat there absolutely in shock. He went in and called the Sheriff’s Department from Warshall County, and they had had swamps with calls that evening about unidentified flying objects, so that was my… Don’t do it. We ask you not to use the word swamp, you know, doctor. But I have to correct you on one point. That would not classify as a close encounter. A close encounter has to be within, say, 500 feet. Right. Well, I was thinking one, the line of unidentified flying objects. Right. Right, something that we couldn’t identify. Well, that’s an interesting case, but it’s a little far off. Yes, it is, and I think that was… The man at the Sheriff’s Department mentioned that most people had seen it through binoculars. Mm-hmm. So… But it was interesting anyway. It certainly was. Thank you for calling. Bye-bye. How come that we seem to be getting so many reports this morning of sightings in the Ann Arbor area? Why would that be? Well, we’re in the Ann Arbor area. Really? And the Ann Arbor area is a very, very tiny portion of this metropolitan area. Well, that’s a point I don’t know to answer that. Okay. Can I take you out of the role of a scientist for just a moment? Okay. Let me put you into the role of a man who has been observing, studying UFOs for a great number of years now and ask you to make a couple of logical extrapolations from all this information and project what you think all of this might mean. Well, first of all, when one gets rid of all the static, the noise, the crud, separates as best he can the wheat from the chaff, there’s very little wheat left. I mean, there’s… The number of really solid cases are certainly the minority, but they are there. Now, those, if you want them to extrapolate, those do represent, if you were to believe them at all, represent some form of intelligence. But where this intelligence is from, whether it is some great distances away, whether it is much closer, or whether, as some psychologists believe, it may be some product of our own intelligence, some psychic projection from, as Jung said, from the collective unconscious. It’s hard to see because some of the best reports involve physical traces, burns on the ground and radar observations and things of that sort. Tough for imagination to do that. Yeah, tough for imagination to do that. And it would be nice to theorize and speculate, but I can’t stop being a scientist. I simply will not extrapolate to the point and say that I think it is this or that any more than if I were a doctor, a medical doctor, I would say I have a cure for cancer, an absolute positive cure for cancer. I don’t. And I don’t have an answer to the UFO problem either. It does seem to you, however, if I read you correctly, that it is directed by some sort of intelligence, apparently. Yeah. That seems to be the case. And the difficulty is that the subject has not been treated professionally. Over the last 30 years, we’ve had a carnival of buffoonery in the thing, and for good reason, because the great majority of the reports are nonsense. The cases that are really interesting are so bizarre that it’s much easier to try to sweep them under the carpet. And then we are troubled by the cooks and the crackpots and the ding-a-lings who insist on muddying up the waters tremendously with their utterly fantastic and stupid, I would say, theories, now that appeals to them, obviously. You know, I’d like to just crawl underneath your skin and know what you really feel. You’re very, very careful about how you put things and what you say you should be, I guess. You have to remain detached and as objective as you can be. If I lose my scientific credibility, I’m gone. There’s enough nuts in this world I don’t want to join that group. As an astronomer, understanding how large this universe is, does it make sense to you that somewhere there must be, by the law of probability, figuring the incredible number of planets there are, there must be some other intelligent beings somewhere? Oh, yes. The question, you see, of the astronomer… Let me give you a little model. Suppose we made a model of everything that the astronomer can today see through telescopes. And suppose we made that model, now, in the United States. Then that would put us someplace in Kansas. And we’d let New York be as far out as we can see in one direction, and San Francisco as far out as we can see in the other. And on that scale, in this model, the Earth would not be visible even in the world’s most powerful electron microscope. Now, it is preposterous to think that there’s some sub-microscopic speck in Kansas. It’s the only thing on this model that represents life between New York and San Francisco. It would make us absolute cosmic freaks. Your colleagues agree with you completely on that? Oh, yes. Absolutely. You are convinced, then, there are many intelligent planets, maybe entire systems… The probabilities are tremendous. We can’t prove it. But that’s… I think it is… It would be terribly egotistical to think that we are the highest intelligences in this entire universe. But, see, the problem is not… And I think we can close on this statement. The question is not are UFOs visitors from outer space? The question is, what are UFOs? Two different questions. Dr. Hynek, thank you very much for being with us this morning. Fascinating. These past three hours went by like lightning. I remind you again that you can write for the International UFO Reporter. The magazine Monthly Review put out on UFO information by Dr. Hynek and his colleagues in the Center for UFO Studies. Just simply by writing to UFO Reporter. Evanston, Illinois. And the zip code is… 60202. Cost you a dollar a copy, $12 a year for your subscription. Thank you again for being with us. Thank you. Utterly fascinating.