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kean-surviving-death-non-local-consciousness-2026-04-21

110 min read

Leslie Kean — on Surviving Death, UFO reporting & non-local consciousness (The Sacred Speaks), Apr 21, 2026

[00:00:00.560] Well, hello. Welcome to Segra Speaks. My [00:00:02.280] name is John Price. I’m your host and I [00:00:04.560] am This is a This is a deep one. I [00:00:07.760] Just to frame this in, unfortunately, I [00:00:09.600] think I said this in the interview, too, [00:00:10.840] but I just want you to know at the [00:00:11.800] outset here I sat next to Leslie in an [00:00:13.560] event hosted by Jeffrey Kripal on the [00:00:15.600] Archives of the Impossible and we got [00:00:17.120] along swimmingly and I thought, well, I [00:00:18.800] really got to have you on the show. [00:00:20.440] Leslie is the is a New York Times [00:00:22.040] journalist and is also the author of [00:00:25.120] Surviving Death. Her [00:00:27.560] vigilant work in looking at what what [00:00:30.160] happens to us after death is incredible. [00:00:33.840] And I am beyond expanded having known [00:00:36.720] Leslie and read her book. And there’s [00:00:38.680] also a Netflix series that’s inspired by [00:00:40.640] her work under the same name, Surviving [00:00:42.920] Death. Leslie, thanks for being on this [00:00:44.720] show. Thanks for coming out and and [00:00:46.880] generously giving your time and being in [00:00:48.800] conversation. I look forward to more. [00:00:50.760] Also, a couple things I want to point [00:00:51.920] you to her website. One, Leslie Kean. [00:00:54.480] L E S L I E K E A N dot com. Check it [00:00:58.800] out. Lots to offer. She’s got a book on [00:01:00.520] UFOs, a lot of the paranormal. She has [00:01:03.520] been diving into this subject for a long [00:01:06.400] time. And um [00:01:08.840] she’s investigative journalist. Um she’s [00:01:11.360] looking at the hidden, the paranormal, [00:01:12.680] the impossible. Stay tuned. She’s She’s [00:01:15.000] incredible. So, a couple of housekeeping [00:01:16.960] details and then we’ll get started. And [00:01:18.720] number one is check out the Center for [00:01:20.800] Healing Arts and Sciences at the [00:01:22.120] centerforhas.com. [00:01:24.280] It’s a boutique integrative wellness [00:01:25.440] practice my wife and I have started [00:01:27.240] years ago and it’s up and going here in [00:01:29.320] Houston. Lot of offerings and both [00:01:31.560] online and in person, whether you’re in [00:01:33.040] Houston or not, please check us out. It [00:01:35.120] is an incredibly expansive space. If you [00:01:37.440] ever get the opportunity, come see us. [00:01:39.680] Uh the other is young houston.org at the [00:01:42.400] Jung Center. I’m the president of the [00:01:44.320] organization and we have just celebrated [00:01:46.400] our [00:01:47.480] uh an incredible event. We had our [00:01:49.720] annual um gala where Dan Harris uh came [00:01:54.280] out and that was just an exceptional [00:01:55.760] time. Thank you all for those of you who [00:01:57.720] came out and if you’re interested in [00:01:59.360] getting involved the Young Center in [00:02:00.560] Houston, come check us out. On my [00:02:02.920] website at doctorjohnwprice.com, [00:02:05.480] that’s d r j o h n w p r i c e, there [00:02:09.119] are many offerings, a lot of links, but [00:02:11.039] the two in particular I want to point [00:02:12.720] you toward is one is the Substack that [00:02:14.840] I’m releasing. It’s a serialized essay [00:02:17.480] manifesto over some of the core elements [00:02:19.640] of my thinking called Life is an [00:02:21.320] alternate state of consciousness. [00:02:23.520] Please check that out, follow it, [00:02:25.440] subscribe. Thank you. The other is the [00:02:28.040] offering, the Open Gate. We’ve got it at [00:02:30.120] fantastic community that we have been [00:02:31.960] building out building over the next [00:02:33.440] year. Excuse me. We’ve got a fantastic [00:02:36.000] community we’ve been building over the [00:02:37.280] last year and it’s growing and expanding [00:02:39.400] and the value proposition is changing. [00:02:41.640] So, if you’ve been sitting on the edges [00:02:43.920] or considering joining a community, this [00:02:46.120] is it. Uh check out the website, look at [00:02:48.240] what we’re offering and uh email me if [00:02:50.480] you have any questions. I’m happy to [00:02:51.720] answer them. Please uh please come on [00:02:53.800] and check it out. [00:02:55.720] Um the other thing that I want to talk [00:02:57.240] to you talk to you about is Esalen. So, [00:02:59.200] I’ve now I’ve officially led about five [00:03:01.960] different workshops at Esalen. I’ve got [00:03:04.280] my sixth coming up in June, June 15th [00:03:06.680] through the 19th called Young [00:03:07.960] Psychodelics and Integration. And I’ve [00:03:11.000] I’ll also be offering that workshop in [00:03:12.760] December. However, there’s going to be a [00:03:14.200] difference. One is an ascent [00:03:16.720] spirituality and one is a descent [00:03:18.640] spirituality. So, of course, June will [00:03:20.200] be the ascent. We’ll be looking at kind [00:03:21.760] of this solar, more masculine kind of [00:03:24.160] spiritual orientation and in December [00:03:26.520] we’re looking at this kind of more [00:03:27.840] lunar, feminine descent oriented uh [00:03:30.720] spiritual orientation. Esalen is [00:03:32.520] amazing. If you’ve never been, please [00:03:34.920] come. If you have been thinking about [00:03:36.640] going, this is your opportunity. Check [00:03:38.600] it out at esalen.org. [00:03:40.520] Thank you, Leslie, for being here. [00:03:41.920] Thanks for making the time and for now [00:03:44.240] we’ll leave it there and I’ll bring you [00:03:45.160] the interview. [00:04:01.360] Leslie Kean, there are certain [00:04:02.880] conversations that you enter not because [00:04:05.040] you have answers, but because you have [00:04:06.680] questions that refuse to leave you [00:04:09.200] alone. And one of those questions for me [00:04:10.760] sits right at the edge of everything we [00:04:12.560] think we understand about reality, about [00:04:14.440] the psyche, and about consciousness [00:04:16.400] itself. And it’s the question you’ve [00:04:19.120] been asking for a long time, what [00:04:20.400] happens when we die? What happens before [00:04:22.720] we’re born? This is not abstraction or [00:04:25.200] theology. And one of the things I really [00:04:26.760] loved about reading your book is that [00:04:28.600] you’re you’re you’re interested in an [00:04:30.040] actual inquiry into whether [00:04:31.880] consciousness survives the body. So, for [00:04:34.160] those of you coming in today, my guest [00:04:36.200] is Leslie Kean, who has spent decades [00:04:38.320] walking directly into that question. [00:04:40.680] She’s an investigative journalist whose [00:04:42.400] 2017 New York Times reporting on a [00:04:44.600] secret Pentagon UFO program [00:04:46.280] fundamentally changed how the mainstream [00:04:48.120] world talks about unexplained phenomena. [00:04:50.440] Steven Spielberg recently said at the [00:04:52.240] South by Southwest con- conference here [00:04:54.480] in Texas that it was Leslie’s reporting [00:04:57.120] that brought him back into the territory [00:04:58.520] he first explored in Close Encounters of [00:05:00.120] the Third Kind. That’s the kind of [00:05:01.880] impact that you, Leslie, have had. This [00:05:03.760] is awesome. Your book, Surviving Death, [00:05:05.920] presents the evidence. Near-death [00:05:07.920] experiences, children who remember [00:05:09.520] previous lives in verifiable details, [00:05:11.680] mediums working under controlled [00:05:13.240] scientific conditions, physical [00:05:15.200] phenomena that should not be possible in [00:05:17.000] a material world. She does not ask you [00:05:19.560] to believe it, but asks you to sit with [00:05:21.520] it and let the evidence do what it does. [00:05:24.080] And this is really what I want to [00:05:25.320] explore today, not whether these things [00:05:26.920] are true, quote, you know, true, but [00:05:29.560] what happens to a person, to a [00:05:31.200] worldview, and to an entire way of [00:05:33.000] understanding reality when you spend [00:05:34.720] years in the presence of evidence that [00:05:36.520] refuses to fit into the current models [00:05:39.480] that make sense to [00:05:41.440] um our modern minds. So, Leslie, it’s [00:05:43.120] really good to have you here. I’m [00:05:44.200] excited to dive in. Thank you for [00:05:45.920] showing up. [00:05:46.600] >> Well, thank you, John. We’ve been [00:05:47.840] planning this for a long time and I’m so [00:05:49.560] glad it’s finally happening, you know, [00:05:51.160] after all this time. I just want to add [00:05:53.040] one thing to your intro that that’s [00:05:54.720] important to me to acknowledge that for [00:05:56.440] the New York Times story, it wasn’t just [00:05:58.520] me. It was also my colleagues Ralph [00:06:00.600] Blumenthal and Helene Cooper that [00:06:03.160] >> Thank you. [00:06:03.520] >> worked on that story with me and [00:06:04.520] reported on it with me. So, I don’t want [00:06:06.040] to give the impression that it was just [00:06:07.560] me. You’re leading with your humility, [00:06:09.560] Leslie. This is good. Well, I couldn’t [00:06:11.840] have done it without them and [00:06:13.000] >> And true. And I was going to say [00:06:14.640] something else to in response to the [00:06:16.560] last line that you said, but now because [00:06:18.800] I was focusing on that, I forgot what it [00:06:20.600] was. But anyway, [00:06:21.720] >> Well, I said I said something about when [00:06:23.240] you spend years in the presence of [00:06:24.680] evidence that refuse to fit into the [00:06:26.400] models of [00:06:27.800] uh the scientific materialism. Yeah, I [00:06:30.840] mean, I think Right. Right. It makes you [00:06:32.840] question reality, you know, and kind of [00:06:35.080] where it leads after a while. And you [00:06:36.760] sort of have, you know, suggested this [00:06:38.920] in your question about what’s what [00:06:41.760] whether this is some kind of alternate [00:06:43.200] reality, the physical reality. I mean, [00:06:44.560] it really makes you feel after a while [00:06:46.520] that this non-local reality is the real [00:06:49.520] reality. And that, you know, that that [00:06:51.480] that’s that’s the ultimate reality. [00:06:53.964] >> [laughter] [00:06:54.360] >> As you’ve been pointing out in your [00:06:55.960] Substack, which I read, [00:06:57.280] >> Yeah. Thank you. and really great and [00:06:59.120] beautifully written and really [00:07:00.520] thoughtful. I recommend all your viewers [00:07:02.160] to to read it if they haven’t. [00:07:03.920] >> for that. That’s huge. [00:07:04.880] >> Yeah, it’s just like I mean, there’s a [00:07:07.600] physical three-dimensional world, but [00:07:09.760] there’s another reality and the more [00:07:11.720] evidence you get pointing you in that [00:07:14.640] direction as of of accepting that other [00:07:17.120] reality or that bigger reality. I mean, [00:07:19.080] it’s not really other, but it’s bigger [00:07:21.280] and it kind of contains everything. And [00:07:23.240] the more evidence you have for it also, [00:07:24.720] the more direct experience you have for [00:07:26.720] it, you start to feel, at least I do, [00:07:28.840] and I think it’s true for a lot of [00:07:29.880] people that really that is reality. And [00:07:32.400] this physicality that we’re in is just a [00:07:34.320] temporary, you know, passing through [00:07:36.360] stage and a lot of people believe that [00:07:38.040] we’re here to learn lessons, you know, [00:07:39.760] we’ve chosen this life for various [00:07:41.560] reasons. There’s all kinds of theories [00:07:43.680] about it about why we’re here and all of [00:07:46.120] that, but really yeah, it kind of takes [00:07:48.880] you into this bigger expansive reality [00:07:50.720] just to ask the questions and to [00:07:52.320] contemplate them like you’re saying, [00:07:53.960] even though we can’t ever really prove [00:07:55.840] anything. But the evidence we do have [00:07:59.040] for you know, the survival of [00:08:01.560] consciousness. First of all, that [00:08:02.960] consciousness operates independently of [00:08:04.640] the brain. That’s the first step. Mhm. [00:08:07.160] And then the the chance, you know, the [00:08:08.560] likelihood that it does survive bodily [00:08:10.760] death is very strong. I mean, since [00:08:13.400] writing my book, which came out in 2017, [00:08:15.640] Surviving Death, I you know, there’s [00:08:17.200] been more and more evidence that’s come [00:08:18.600] my way. So, that I think that book made [00:08:20.160] a very good case for it, but the more [00:08:22.200] you look into it, the more evidence [00:08:23.960] comes your way and it just uh just [00:08:26.160] reinforces the reality of of that really [00:08:29.320] likely possibility. And there are [00:08:31.360] certain things I find really hard to [00:08:32.919] explain any other way. So, you know, [00:08:36.120] we’re left with this incredible mystery [00:08:38.640] and there’s nothing more interesting to [00:08:40.320] me than dwelling in it and contemplating [00:08:42.440] it. And there we are. We can end the [00:08:44.320] interview right now. [00:08:45.240] >> And we’re And we’re spent. Yes. [00:08:47.600] Well, you’re you’re bringing up [00:08:48.800] something cool. Thanks for for checking [00:08:50.360] out the Substack. It’s a serialized um [00:08:53.120] essay that I’m putting, which it could I [00:08:55.160] mean, I I as I joked at the beginning, [00:08:56.800] it’s it’s something I intended to write [00:08:58.840] around 1,500 2,000 words that turned [00:09:01.160] into 9,000 words and it’s growing. Now, [00:09:03.600] I’m doing it in a serialized model and [00:09:05.280] so it’s it’s changing as I go, actually, [00:09:07.720] which is fantastic. But the fundamental [00:09:09.680] question I’m asking is that or I’m I’m [00:09:11.760] posing is not one that’s new. It’s what [00:09:14.600] if we are in the alternate state of [00:09:16.120] consciousness? From from the perspective [00:09:18.480] of the eternals and I mean this in a [00:09:20.720] kind of very William Blake-esque [00:09:23.280] perspective, you know, that that one of [00:09:25.360] the fundamentals is that what whatever [00:09:27.760] the gods are or whatever the cosmos is [00:09:30.640] is infinite relative to what we are. And [00:09:33.640] so, that that finit- that infinity is [00:09:36.720] not subjected to finitude, which we are. [00:09:39.880] At least part of us is. And I’ve been [00:09:42.240] looking as as we were saying earlier, [00:09:43.760] I’ve been really looking into [00:09:44.680] psychedelics and as a psychotherapist, [00:09:47.360] I’m very interested in those kinds of [00:09:49.800] ecstatic experiences. But what I love [00:09:52.080] about what you do is your world picks up [00:09:54.320] where mine tends to drop off. I’ve [00:09:57.440] I’ve done a bit of poking around. You [00:09:58.920] know, certainly Jeffrey Kripal has been [00:10:00.280] a huge influence in my world. And that’s [00:10:02.680] of course where we met. You know, we [00:10:03.960] picked up this conversation. We were [00:10:05.920] looking at the archives of the [00:10:07.200] impossible with Jeff’s work down in at [00:10:09.720] Rice University here. Um but since I’ve [00:10:12.840] read your work and now we’re connecting, [00:10:14.960] it’s even more apparent that our our [00:10:17.160] worlds collide and and co- and come [00:10:19.560] together in really beautiful and [00:10:20.840] interesting ways. So, I’m I’m first [00:10:23.000] interested in [00:10:24.680] how to just stumble into this, right? [00:10:26.160] Let’s go into give some background both [00:10:28.760] me and of course the viewer and the [00:10:30.360] listener who you are and how you came to [00:10:32.440] these really powerful questions about [00:10:33.920] the mysteries you’ve been looking at. [00:10:35.560] Yeah, I mean [00:10:36.920] I guess there’s a personal level and the [00:10:38.440] professional level. So, you’re asking [00:10:40.720] for the personal level with or the [00:10:42.120] professional? I mean, I kind of I want [00:10:43.960] to get to both, you know, whatever feels [00:10:45.560] potent at the beginning as far as giving [00:10:47.320] this kind of unfolding of you. Okay. I [00:10:49.440] mean, when I was in college, I went to [00:10:51.560] Bard College um [00:10:53.960] quite a while ago, guys. Uh [00:10:56.920] I but I became interested in Zen [00:10:59.000] Buddhism when I was at Bard College and [00:11:00.640] we had a there was a sitting group there [00:11:02.720] a Zen group and it was led by a very [00:11:04.839] high-level student of a mat of [00:11:07.200] Zen teacher who’s out of the Rochester [00:11:08.960] Zen Center. Um anyway, and so [00:11:12.320] I I was I became a very avid [00:11:14.520] practitioner of Zen Buddhism and I think [00:11:16.280] that’s sort of how the whole thing [00:11:18.040] started for me in terms of putting any [00:11:20.280] putting it into kind of a form, you [00:11:22.440] know, it was like you’re and that if Zen [00:11:24.839] is very oriented towards asking [00:11:26.680] questions that are that have no answers [00:11:28.440] or that just test the mind, you know, [00:11:30.000] right? The koan you you can’t answer it [00:11:32.240] with your mind. You’re pushed somewhere [00:11:33.640] else. And it also of course deals with [00:11:36.560] uh you know, all kinds of [00:11:38.040] questions around reincarnation and you [00:11:40.320] know, the emptiness and the void and you [00:11:42.960] know, all the things that are part of so [00:11:45.520] many different traditions and I just [00:11:47.600] that was just sort of ever since you [00:11:49.160] know, I’ve always been a person who’s [00:11:51.040] been curious about what reality is. I [00:11:53.640] mean, it’s just sort of somehow innate [00:11:55.120] to me. And that that was how it all [00:11:57.000] began, you know, and I I just spent [00:11:58.760] decades of my life uh going through [00:12:00.800] various kind of journeys with different [00:12:02.400] paths and different teachers and and [00:12:04.839] then uh [00:12:06.240] you know, deepening my perspective [00:12:08.000] trying to integrate everything having [00:12:09.640] really interesting experiences with all [00:12:11.560] of this. Not just with Zen, but a lot of [00:12:13.720] other things and and including uh [00:12:15.839] personal you know, therapeutic work as [00:12:17.720] well. I mean, that that term for me the [00:12:19.880] integration of you know, psychological [00:12:22.000] work and spiritual work is really a [00:12:23.520] powerful and important thing as well. [00:12:25.560] And then um [00:12:26.880] you know, when I began [00:12:28.480] work as a journalist which was in the [00:12:30.160] ’90s, um [00:12:32.720] you know, I loved it because I was in it [00:12:34.920] was an investigative process where you [00:12:36.680] were really digging to try to find [00:12:38.160] answers. In some ways it was similar to [00:12:40.320] the spiritual search, you know, you’re [00:12:42.080] you’re trying to get to the bottom of [00:12:43.400] some issue. [00:12:44.920] I love the puzzle and the and of trying [00:12:46.960] to solve things if you don’t know we [00:12:49.000] don’t have the answers. And you know, I [00:12:51.160] started being the doing journalism maybe [00:12:52.839] in the night mid-’90s and so I never [00:12:55.600] would have imagined, John, that that my [00:12:58.080] journalism would ever intersect with [00:13:01.120] this other thread in my life which was [00:13:03.000] sort of my own personal spiritual [00:13:04.800] investigations, you know? [00:13:06.839] And when that all changed with UFOs and [00:13:09.640] in in you know, in 1999 when I received [00:13:12.640] this report from France that about I was [00:13:15.120] working at a public radio station in [00:13:16.600] Berkeley, California at the time as an [00:13:18.560] investig- investigative journalist on a [00:13:20.800] daily investigative news program. And [00:13:23.280] I’ve been doing that for a few years and [00:13:25.640] um when this report was sent to me from [00:13:27.760] a colleague in France about UFOs which I [00:13:30.000] I wrote about in the introduction of my [00:13:31.800] book UFOs which came out in 2010. This [00:13:34.560] was so stunning to me and again, I [00:13:37.800] hadn’t really had an interest in UFOs [00:13:39.560] before. I had read a few books though. I [00:13:41.800] had read Whitley Strieber’s Communion. I [00:13:43.600] couldn’t put it down. I read it in like [00:13:45.080] 24 hours, you know? [00:13:46.839] Uh I’d read a few other books. I was [00:13:48.360] really curious, but you know, no more [00:13:49.920] than the average person might be who was [00:13:51.680] who sort of was interested in stuff like [00:13:53.320] that, you know, I never [00:13:54.880] wasn’t like a a UFO person at all, [00:13:57.200] right? I just had a natural curiosity [00:13:59.839] and um this report from France landed on [00:14:02.640] my desk sent to me and it was re- you [00:14:05.560] know, this this 90-page three-year study [00:14:08.640] a summary of a three-year study [00:14:09.920] performed by [00:14:11.440] you know, generals and admirals and the [00:14:13.720] the chief of police and the former head [00:14:15.720] of the equivalent of NASA in France. I [00:14:18.280] mean, very [snorts] very high-level [00:14:19.760] group of 13 people. I think there were [00:14:21.959] there were two four-star three-star [00:14:23.560] generals. They were all part of this [00:14:25.520] think tank. They were retired. [00:14:27.959] But my colleague just said, you know, it [00:14:30.040] was a translation that Laurence [00:14:31.800] Rockefeller had paid for. It was only it [00:14:33.880] had been published in France, but nobody [00:14:35.480] was paying any attention to this. And so [00:14:37.680] this colleague of mine sent me the [00:14:39.600] English translation [00:14:41.480] and said, “You’re the only reporter in [00:14:43.680] America to have this. Do you want to do [00:14:45.520] something with it?” And I said, “Let me [00:14:47.280] take a look, you know?” And I read this [00:14:48.839] report and I I was absolutely floored by [00:14:51.640] it, John. I mean, it was like these very [00:14:54.160] very high-level people. They interviewed [00:14:56.480] a lot of pilots and military people. [00:14:58.839] They studied official cases from around [00:15:00.760] the world. You know, these were very [00:15:02.400] These were cases that had a lot of data. [00:15:04.800] Cases that could not be explained away [00:15:07.280] through conventional explanations [00:15:09.079] because you have to have a lot of data [00:15:10.440] to you know, to to be at the level of [00:15:13.520] there’s no other possible explanation [00:15:15.040] for this. You You can’t You have to have [00:15:17.160] enough data to show that. [00:15:19.120] Right? If if it’s just somebody that has [00:15:20.680] a sighting [00:15:22.079] you don’t know anything really, but if [00:15:23.560] you have radar data on multiple [00:15:25.400] witnesses and airplanes going you know, [00:15:28.320] mix information, you know, um [00:15:31.200] instruments going down in the airplane [00:15:33.120] and the radar corresponds with the [00:15:34.520] witness reports and the witnesses are [00:15:36.360] highly trained. All these kinds of [00:15:38.280] things. So, they they they just spent [00:15:40.640] all this time interviewing these people [00:15:42.440] and um they wrote in black and white, [00:15:45.280] you know, in this report that they [00:15:46.720] thought the best explanation for this [00:15:49.280] was what they called the [00:15:50.320] extraterrestrial hypothesis. They [00:15:53.160] hypothesized that the only way to [00:15:55.240] explain these outstanding cases was that [00:15:59.040] they we were being visited by some [00:16:00.640] something from somewhere else. And they [00:16:02.600] went through all the possible [00:16:03.959] conventional explanations and kind of [00:16:05.680] ruled them out, you know? And they they [00:16:07.959] said we can’t we can’t prove this. This [00:16:10.040] is a hypothesis. [00:16:11.920] They called it the extraterrestrial [00:16:13.320] hypothesis, but [00:16:15.320] they were had no issue with just stating [00:16:17.880] in black and white that this is the most [00:16:19.560] logical and rational and valid [00:16:21.720] explanation. And in those days, it was a [00:16:24.160] very different world than the one we’re [00:16:25.880] in now. [00:16:27.520] Right? I mean, UFOs nowadays the media [00:16:30.600] can’t get enough of UFOs. In those days, [00:16:32.920] it was so taboo. [00:16:35.120] You mention the word and people laughed, [00:16:37.560] you know? Nobody knew anything about it. [00:16:39.520] The government wanted nothing to do with [00:16:41.320] it. It was absolutely taboo. You did not [00:16:44.480] Nobody would touch it, right? So, that’s [00:16:46.400] why if a report came like that came in [00:16:48.760] today, it wouldn’t be a big deal. But [00:16:50.880] then, the level that these people were [00:16:53.480] at within the French uh government [00:16:55.480] system, although they were retired, it [00:16:57.040] didn’t matter, you know? It was a white [00:16:58.560] paper. It was not a government document. [00:17:00.959] But um these were people who had been [00:17:02.440] around the block. And for so for [00:17:04.880] that’s what the story really [00:17:07.000] hung its hat on was the the credibility [00:17:09.520] of the authors of this report. And just [00:17:12.000] reading the case descriptions they had, [00:17:14.079] you know, it was just blew my mind [00:17:15.839] because I recognized this is a huge [00:17:17.920] story. That’s what I felt when I read [00:17:19.480] this because of the the uh the stature [00:17:22.439] of the people who wrote it. You know, [00:17:24.040] and I couldn’t help thinking imagine if [00:17:25.880] the equivalent statured people [00:17:29.720] the people the equivalent people in [00:17:31.120] America [00:17:32.800] gave a press conference and made the [00:17:34.120] same statement, right? If we had a [00:17:35.720] four-star general and an admiral and a [00:17:37.600] former head of the police force and the [00:17:39.640] former head of NASA come out at a [00:17:41.120] microphone and make the statements that [00:17:42.760] they made, it would be like massive, [00:17:44.960] right? So, I recognized the power of [00:17:46.960] that story. This was France. It’s our [00:17:48.840] ally, right? We respect these people. [00:17:51.280] So, that was a life-changing moment for [00:17:53.440] me where I was able to integrate some [00:17:56.120] you know, this this little nugget landed [00:17:58.360] on my lap which allowed me to kind of [00:18:00.360] integrate my own personal interest in [00:18:03.040] looking at reality that lies beyond our [00:18:05.800] physical reality and integrating that [00:18:07.800] into my journalism which was like [00:18:09.960] amazing to me. [00:18:11.600] Um and it was very hard very hard to [00:18:14.440] publish that first story which was [00:18:17.679] That’s exactly yeah, yeah. I mean, [00:18:19.880] really it was a miracle I ever was able [00:18:22.280] to and there’s a whole lot of reasons [00:18:23.440] why I was able to do it and we you know, [00:18:25.080] that’s I don’t know if we want to take a [00:18:26.320] lot of time with that, but I was able to [00:18:27.880] get a story [00:18:29.200] in May of 2000 in the Boston Globe about [00:18:31.440] this report from France. And that that [00:18:35.320] was it for me. I mean, I was not at that [00:18:37.640] moment from that moment on, I didn’t [00:18:39.360] want to do anything else, you know? And [00:18:41.320] I didn’t. I eventually quit the job at [00:18:42.960] the radio station and just became a [00:18:45.080] full-time investigator into UFOs. And [00:18:47.120] nobody else was Nobody was doing that in [00:18:48.720] the print world then. Nobody was [00:18:50.760] publishing articles in mainstream media [00:18:53.880] that would go out on the wire services [00:18:55.560] and be picked up all over the place [00:18:56.919] which is what I was fortunate enough to [00:18:58.919] be able to do. I mean, there were great [00:19:00.280] reporters out there like George Knapp, [00:19:02.200] but he was he was working in TV, you [00:19:04.360] know? I this was like So, it was just [00:19:06.800] this really interesting experience to [00:19:09.159] come up against [00:19:11.000] uh the climate that we were in the the [00:19:12.640] incredible taboo and the ridicule and [00:19:14.679] all of that. And I stayed with that for [00:19:16.840] 17 years and then of course everything [00:19:18.840] changed in 2017 which you mentioned, but [00:19:21.040] anyway Yeah. So, I guess it’s a [00:19:23.520] long-winded answer to your question. I [00:19:25.000] mean, it’s sort of became and then with [00:19:26.640] Surviving Death, too, I was able to find [00:19:29.240] a way to kind of integrate the [00:19:30.720] professional work I do with [00:19:33.360] what’s really meaningful to me on a [00:19:34.960] personal level. And what was so great [00:19:36.840] about Surviving Death was being able to [00:19:38.480] try to get evidence [00:19:40.480] for this unknown non-local world this [00:19:43.400] non-local consciousness however we want [00:19:45.080] to define it, you know? And to try to [00:19:46.720] present the best evidence for people as [00:19:48.800] you mentioned outside of religious [00:19:50.400] context. There’s absolutely no religion [00:19:52.480] in there. [00:19:53.720] That um, you know, takes them into this [00:19:55.880] other world and that world can be [00:19:58.560] entered into in a lot of different ways. [00:20:00.760] But this is the This was sort of a more [00:20:02.640] intellectual way of doing it. For people [00:20:05.080] who might not have had the experiences, [00:20:06.880] for people who were skeptical. [00:20:08.880] And and I was able to pull together, you [00:20:11.400] know, evidence from all these different [00:20:13.000] areas. You listed some of them in the [00:20:14.520] beginning, you know, that all pointed [00:20:16.040] towards the same reality. That’s what [00:20:17.560] was so amazing about it. You know, [00:20:19.400] unrelated areas of investigation that [00:20:22.440] all pointed towards the same thing. So [00:20:24.520] that it was just powerful for me to have [00:20:26.400] the opportunity to do that and then it’s [00:20:28.160] as time’s gone on since then, it’s just [00:20:30.280] become more and more of a personal [00:20:32.920] inner journey for me to to [00:20:35.120] become connected to that reality to more [00:20:37.320] directly. And I really care more about [00:20:39.200] that now than I do about anything [00:20:41.600] intellectual or writing about it or [00:20:43.200] anything else. I feel like I kind of [00:20:44.440] made my contribution there. And now I’m [00:20:46.800] much more I’m really interested in sort [00:20:48.480] of what that journey means for me as a [00:20:50.640] as a as a human being, you know? [00:20:52.960] So, anyway, that was a very long-winded [00:20:54.720] answer to your question, but I can give [00:20:56.320] you a [00:20:56.720] >> it’s perfect. Because but but but what [00:20:59.080] it did is it inspired I was thinking [00:21:01.040] about I was [clears throat] actually [00:21:02.960] feeling a great deal of respect for you [00:21:04.480] because you have now referenced that [00:21:07.520] you’re investigating UFOs [00:21:10.600] and also [00:21:12.280] surviving death. [00:21:13.960] And these are um [00:21:17.280] These are worldview shattering areas of [00:21:20.080] study. And and and meaning that if [00:21:22.760] somebody has a near-death experience, [00:21:24.600] they have an experience of any kind that [00:21:26.440] we’re talking about, their worldview [00:21:28.080] shatters. And and therefore, people who [00:21:30.800] have not had that experience cling to [00:21:32.840] this worldview. And for any of you [00:21:34.520] listeners or viewers that haven’t had a [00:21:36.840] worldview shattering experience in this [00:21:39.080] way, think of any trauma that [00:21:41.000] destabilizes how you view the world and [00:21:43.760] then imagine that happening on the level [00:21:45.440] of the reality that you perceive to be [00:21:48.000] the way that this whole entire thing [00:21:50.040] that we’re in exists. And it it’s [00:21:51.800] destabilizing to say the least. So what [00:21:53.880] that does is it maintains a kind of [00:21:56.800] allegiance that people who’ve not had [00:21:58.840] that experience, they will double down [00:22:01.640] on that worldview. A kind of an old joke [00:22:04.560] is I think it’s funny, but an old joke [00:22:06.600] in the sciences is that innovation [00:22:08.120] happens one death at a time because we [00:22:10.679] we we we we cling, you know, the old [00:22:12.760] guard clings to their belief systems [00:22:14.920] because they’re so invested in it. And [00:22:17.240] here you are studying the things that I [00:22:19.360] mean, Leslie, for years you’ve been [00:22:21.160] studying what what people have hidden. [00:22:24.960] Uh the academy, academics, journalists, [00:22:27.600] people have hidden having these [00:22:28.920] experiences. How have you How have you [00:22:30.640] worked with what [00:22:32.720] what what is obvious subject to [00:22:34.560] ridicule? Uh obviously is subjected to [00:22:37.040] ridicule. Um you have [00:22:39.920] been at the tip of the spear of this. [00:22:41.160] How how has that been for you and [00:22:43.640] what’s that been like being a [00:22:45.080] representative of [00:22:47.000] a reality that’s beneath our our typical [00:22:49.480] reality? [00:22:51.040] Yeah, it’s it’s interesting, John, [00:22:52.679] because I really haven’t been subjected [00:22:54.280] to to ridicule very much. You know, I [00:22:56.960] mean, so there’s For me, there’s two [00:22:59.040] phases. There’s the pre-2017 and the [00:23:01.240] post-2017. And the post-2017 includes my [00:23:04.440] book Surviving Death cuz that’s when it [00:23:06.160] came out. Yeah. But even before 2017, I [00:23:09.600] mean, the the way I wrote the stories [00:23:11.400] that I wrote on UFOs were so uh rigorous [00:23:15.040] and only using really You know, like [00:23:16.679] like this French report, right? There [00:23:18.720] really wasn’t a lot that [00:23:20.880] to to ridicule in the stories that I [00:23:22.440] wrote, to be honest. I was just so [00:23:24.040] careful. I didn’t draw conclusions. [00:23:26.679] I didn’t speculate about anything. I [00:23:28.640] didn’t use anonymous sources. And I [00:23:31.040] didn’t even say these UFOs are from [00:23:33.960] somewhere else. I just let the other [00:23:35.280] people say it. [00:23:37.000] And then I I did write other stories [00:23:38.760] kind of advocating for greater [00:23:40.120] transparency and [00:23:42.760] But, you know, I really I wasn’t [00:23:44.880] ridiculed. I mean, when when 20 when my [00:23:47.240] book came out in 2010, um the book on [00:23:49.840] UFOs, and that was a New York Times [00:23:51.400] bestseller, so that got a lot of [00:23:52.600] attention. [00:23:53.960] It was so radical then because the theme [00:23:56.240] of my book was was three words, UFOs are [00:23:59.320] real. [00:24:00.760] That’s what the book was showing people. [00:24:03.040] And it was like explosive that somebody [00:24:04.800] could actually maybe make a strong case [00:24:06.720] for that, you know, which is what my [00:24:07.960] book did. Um [00:24:10.080] And you know, there was one There was [00:24:13.120] one kind of debunker person. I remember [00:24:14.960] he wrote some essay online about I I had [00:24:17.760] said in my book that pilots were very [00:24:20.040] high highly trained observers and [00:24:22.320] therefore, you know, we could we could [00:24:23.679] really trust their observations because [00:24:25.240] of their training. And he was making the [00:24:27.560] argument that that’s not true. [00:24:29.880] So he wrote an essay about it. I think [00:24:31.920] it was on MSNBC or some news website and [00:24:35.160] then I rebutted his [00:24:37.480] claims and I thought I did a very good [00:24:39.200] job. It was But that was it. It’s not [00:24:41.240] like [00:24:42.400] Yeah, so I really I feel for I think the [00:24:44.600] people that get subjected to ridicule, [00:24:47.040] which is what’s so unfair, are the [00:24:48.720] people who have had their own [00:24:49.960] experiences and they talk about them. Or [00:24:52.320] people who have had sightings back [00:24:54.320] before 2017. Those are the people that [00:24:56.160] would be ridiculed, right? People that [00:24:58.080] dealing with abduction experiences or [00:25:00.800] any kind of contact experience or [00:25:02.840] anything that was personal to them that [00:25:04.520] they and they couldn’t prove it and it [00:25:06.080] was weird. [00:25:07.800] You know, I was reporting on very [00:25:09.520] hardcore kind of data, so it was easier, [00:25:12.040] but I feel for the the experiencers. [00:25:14.080] They’re the ones that got the brunt of [00:25:15.360] the ridicule. [00:25:16.800] And I still feel like that’s a problem. [00:25:19.520] Um and I I’ve spoken about it a number [00:25:21.880] of times, including at the Soal [00:25:23.320] Foundation conference and other places [00:25:25.080] that I really think we have to find a [00:25:26.520] way to integrate the validity of the [00:25:28.760] experiencer narrative into the bigger [00:25:30.600] picture, but it’s it’s really difficult [00:25:32.400] to do that and we have to all we can [00:25:33.800] only do that when we’re ready for it. So [00:25:35.880] I yeah, so it really hasn’t been a hard [00:25:37.480] thing for me. And then coming out in the [00:25:39.480] New York Times in 2017, I mean, you [00:25:41.720] know, you can get There’s someone [00:25:42.960] There’s a guy named Stephen Greenstreet [00:25:44.600] who ridicules everybody, you know, all [00:25:47.000] the people working on the UFO issue um [00:25:49.600] who are who are serious about it. He [00:25:52.200] likes to ridicule them, but it doesn’t [00:25:53.600] mean anything. [00:25:55.160] So um, you know, I I I fortunately have [00:25:57.840] not been subjected to that, but I I I [00:26:00.880] feel for people that have. And I just [00:26:02.600] think I’ve been so careful about how I [00:26:04.320] went about this, which is why I’ve been [00:26:06.560] able to get to where I have. That’s why [00:26:08.320] I was able to write for the New York [00:26:09.440] Times, you know, I was so careful [00:26:11.440] >> I totally get that. to cross any line [00:26:13.520] that would open that door to ridicule. [00:26:15.679] Now with Surviving Death, there was much [00:26:17.360] more of that possibility and that’s why [00:26:19.679] I was really nervous about it. And there [00:26:21.840] have been some people on social media [00:26:23.640] really been after me for talking about [00:26:25.320] ectoplasm, you know? And you know, yeah, [00:26:28.120] the culture thinks ectoplasm is an [00:26:29.679] absolute ridiculous farce and and a [00:26:32.440] joke. [00:26:32.920] >> Share what that is real quick. So [00:26:35.598] >> [laughter] [00:26:35.840] >> Unpack it so people know what we’re [00:26:37.440] talking about. Yeah, so in my book [00:26:39.880] Surviving Death, the very end of the [00:26:41.960] book I deal with physical mediumship, [00:26:43.960] which [clears throat] is, you know, it’s [00:26:45.240] a form of mediumship in which the uh and [00:26:47.840] it was it was very There were a lot of [00:26:49.320] physical mediums during the 1920s and [00:26:52.440] early 1900s, late 1800s up until about [00:26:55.040] 1930 [00:26:56.560] who were studied by scientists under [00:26:59.320] super control condition and shown to be [00:27:01.679] actually doing [00:27:03.320] these miraculous things in their room in [00:27:05.240] their seance in their We call it the [00:27:07.000] seance room. Um [00:27:09.240] So these Yeah, these and and many of [00:27:11.440] them there is a substance And some of [00:27:13.280] them were frauds. I mean, that’s the [00:27:14.520] other thing. There were many fraudulent [00:27:16.720] physical mediums and I want to [00:27:18.120] acknowledge that because most people [00:27:19.480] think all of them were frauds, but that [00:27:20.960] wasn’t the case. And in my book I give [00:27:23.000] examples of mediums who were studied by [00:27:25.120] the best scientists of the day [00:27:27.360] under such controls that there’s no way [00:27:29.920] they could have been faking anything. [00:27:31.520] And those scientists knew what they were [00:27:32.800] doing and they expected to discover [00:27:34.520] fraud and they found the opposite and it [00:27:36.679] had to write it up in a paper and change [00:27:38.440] their life. So that’s a really [00:27:40.000] fascinating book. [00:27:41.600] Yeah. [00:27:41.960] >> So my I but I was fortunate So some of [00:27:44.160] those mediums [00:27:46.120] exude this energetic substance which has [00:27:48.800] since be called become known by [00:27:50.800] ectoplasm. It was Charles Richet, a very [00:27:53.280] famous French investigator, who actually [00:27:55.480] coined that phrase years and years ago, [00:27:57.840] about 100 years ago probably. And it’s [00:27:59.880] just sort of this [00:28:01.400] energetic substance that you can see [00:28:03.560] that often comes out of the medium’s [00:28:05.600] mouth and it’s the uh the energies that [00:28:08.640] are operating there may use that [00:28:10.400] substance to make things happen in the [00:28:12.000] room. And I’ve I’ve The reason I know [00:28:14.280] it’s real, not only from the [00:28:15.480] investigative science the scientific [00:28:17.200] work, but I’ve experienced it myself [00:28:19.960] by sitting [clears throat] with and [00:28:21.000] working with a physical medium in the UK [00:28:22.800] by the name of Stewart Alexander who [00:28:24.440] I’ve come to know very well and have I [00:28:26.679] wrote about him in my book. And yes, [00:28:28.919] there is ectoplasm that’s involved in [00:28:30.919] the uh unbelievable, impossible events [00:28:33.640] that take place in his space. [00:28:36.360] And so I figured like I’m not going to [00:28:38.640] pretend that this isn’t real because it [00:28:40.480] is. But I wasn’t, you know, so there was [00:28:42.480] There were a couple people on social [00:28:43.760] media that Oh my god, Leslie Kean [00:28:46.360] believes in ectoplasm. You know, she’s [00:28:48.159] really gone over the deep end now, you [00:28:49.800] know, that kind of thing. But it was [00:28:51.360] nothing nothing major. I mean, what can [00:28:54.280] you do? I witnessed it with my own my [00:28:56.440] own eyes. I studied it. I made sure [00:28:58.440] there was no fakery, nothing no trickery [00:29:00.520] going on. [00:29:01.840] And I think I have enough respect by [00:29:04.280] people that, you know, [00:29:06.520] because of the my track record, I think [00:29:09.560] people respect what I say and trust me, [00:29:11.240] a lot of them. So [00:29:13.159] that’s why I took the risk to write [00:29:15.640] about it. It was so life-changing for [00:29:17.280] me, John, that I could not leave things [00:29:19.320] like that out of my book and feel like I [00:29:21.000] was being honest. I wasn’t going to [00:29:22.960] cherry-pick information for that book. [00:29:24.840] And in terms of my own personal [00:29:26.240] experience, I included it in the book. [00:29:28.760] And that was part of my research process [00:29:30.600] in investigating the question of [00:29:31.919] survival was to actually engage with it [00:29:35.120] and whenever I could, you know, with and [00:29:36.640] that involved a lot of that was involved [00:29:38.000] working with mediums of different types [00:29:39.600] of mediums and testing them, you know? [00:29:42.440] So anyway, yeah, but ectoplasm is a very [00:29:45.040] charged word and that that’s probably uh [00:29:48.160] the most the closest I’ve come to really [00:29:50.240] asking to be ridiculed would be [00:29:52.600] describing that, you know? But what can [00:29:54.680] you do when something’s real and if the [00:29:56.640] culture doesn’t accept it, that’s up to [00:29:58.280] them, you know? Uh [00:29:59.880] you just put it out there and people can [00:30:01.640] do what they want with it. Um Well, and [00:30:04.120] that’s I It’s hard not to Well, and that [00:30:06.960] That’s one of the reasons why when you [00:30:08.000] and I talked about this conversation, I [00:30:09.520] really [00:30:10.480] I was certainly interested in how how [00:30:13.400] investigating these experiences and [00:30:15.720] experiencing elements of these [00:30:17.840] experiences has changed your life [00:30:20.000] because I [00:30:21.120] I think that that that tends to be my [00:30:24.320] what I kind of one of my core [00:30:25.480] orientations is ecstatic experience and [00:30:27.920] that when we have when we have an [00:30:30.720] experience where we stand outside of our [00:30:32.760] particular worldview, there’s there’s no [00:30:35.240] there’s no going back. I mean, we can [00:30:36.480] try to put Humpty Dumpty back together [00:30:38.480] again, but it it it’s Yeah. We have we [00:30:40.440] have to we have to incorporate, you [00:30:42.200] know, like that’s in transcendent [00:30:44.520] include is the way that it’s talked [00:30:46.000] about a lot of times. Certainly Rohr [00:30:47.320] talks about it that way, but Um I So I I [00:30:50.000] want to before we dig into that part of [00:30:52.120] it, which I think is totally important [00:30:53.880] that that we are talking about uh [00:30:57.400] uh a sample of experiences and people [00:31:00.440] who have been transformed [00:31:02.760] and and regardless of what that [00:31:04.800] transformative agent is, you know, at [00:31:06.920] least that’s something to be radically [00:31:09.520] altered by that you [00:31:12.360] listener and viewer can have an [00:31:13.760] experience where [00:31:16.240] all of your experience comes into [00:31:17.560] question. The The lens through which you [00:31:19.480] view experience comes into question and [00:31:21.600] shatters. And so like I want to stick [00:31:23.960] with evidence for a little bit before we [00:31:25.960] start painting the picture of how we are [00:31:27.960] are personally transformed. So So [00:31:29.680] sticking with surviving death, right? [00:31:31.600] You’ve got a significant body of [00:31:33.520] evidence that you’re looking at. So [00:31:35.320] children with past life memories, [00:31:36.800] near-death experiences, mediumship of [00:31:39.120] several kinds, mental and physical uh [00:31:41.800] mediumship. And so before you began all [00:31:44.160] this work, what were your operating [00:31:45.560] assumptions about consciousness and the [00:31:47.280] brain? Did Did you even [00:31:50.440] think about it? Yeah, I know, I did [00:31:52.320] because I’d been thinking about these [00:31:53.840] things for all the time that I was doing [00:31:56.120] UFO reporting, you know, starting in [00:31:58.040] about 2000. Um [00:32:00.679] I would This was always in the [00:32:01.800] background for me. I was always [00:32:03.520] interested in this and so I I was you [00:32:06.640] know, so I ended up going to some [00:32:07.920] conferences, you know, that had to deal [00:32:09.920] with evidence for the afterlife and I I [00:32:12.440] There were these two filmmakers who were [00:32:13.720] friends of mine that were making a [00:32:15.000] documentary about this about it and they [00:32:17.520] asked me to consult with them and then [00:32:19.480] there was these [00:32:20.600] something called the Scole experiments [00:32:22.080] out of England, which people can look [00:32:23.400] up, absolutely fascinating and I I got [00:32:25.400] some [00:32:26.280] to spend time with some of the people [00:32:27.760] that the mediums from that case. And it [00:32:30.280] was just sort of [00:32:31.600] always something I was curious about, [00:32:33.400] John, and particularly the thing that [00:32:35.440] really got me as a reporter, which is [00:32:37.679] what made me think I really could do a [00:32:39.200] book about it, were what you mentioned, [00:32:41.000] the cases of young children who [00:32:42.960] remembered past lives. Yeah. And the [00:32:45.160] champion of that research was Ian [00:32:46.760] Stevenson from the University of [00:32:48.280] Virginia and um [00:32:50.760] these cases were so compelling to me as [00:32:53.840] a as a just a purely [00:32:56.120] intellectually, you know, because [00:32:59.120] you’d have a 2-year-old with all this [00:33:00.560] information that he’d never been exposed [00:33:02.440] to. And the parents could make notes [00:33:04.240] about exactly what the child said. They [00:33:05.880] didn’t know what it meant. And then [00:33:07.679] investigators are able to go back or [00:33:10.360] able to come into the scene, let’s say, [00:33:12.320] a little while later, but all the notes [00:33:13.880] have been taken and recorded by the [00:33:15.280] parents or somebody, even the [00:33:17.440] investigators, and then they’re able to [00:33:19.080] find the actual person that that child [00:33:21.360] was in the previous life. [00:33:23.480] And it and everything the child said [00:33:25.040] matches [00:33:26.720] that, you know, it’s like to me it was [00:33:29.120] sort of black and white. Sometimes in in [00:33:31.040] some of the cases [00:33:32.560] when they figured it out, they would [00:33:33.880] take the child back to the location if [00:33:35.880] the if the the death hadn’t occurred [00:33:37.560] that long ago, which often in in in Asia [00:33:40.560] is the case. And the child will [00:33:42.440] recognize the family members. They’ll go [00:33:44.280] up to the attic and tell you where [00:33:45.720] something was hidden up there. He’ll [00:33:47.640] know the names of all the brothers and [00:33:49.240] sisters. I mean, it’s just so [00:33:51.560] compellingly evidential [00:33:54.120] that um [00:33:55.720] that was really a hook for me. And so [00:33:58.240] when I So it’s sort of been lurking in [00:34:00.160] the background, you know? And when my [00:34:01.800] What happened was in 2017, you know, I’d [00:34:04.280] I’d written my book in 2010 on UFOs and [00:34:06.320] I did a whole bunch of follow-up work on [00:34:07.840] it. [00:34:08.760] And then my publisher just said, “Hey, [00:34:10.600] is there anything else you want to write [00:34:11.800] a book about?” Uh and it was that very [00:34:14.359] week that I had been thinking, “I’m [00:34:16.200] going to pitch a book to my publisher [00:34:17.720] about evidence for the for survival in a [00:34:20.320] survival contest past death.” I mean, it [00:34:22.120] was this incredible synchronicity where [00:34:24.240] I had actually been sort of working on [00:34:25.760] it and then the publisher came to me. [00:34:27.520] And they they there wasn’t even a [00:34:29.120] question. They wanted me to do it. So [00:34:30.480] that, you know, it was really exciting [00:34:32.440] for me, too, because it I was looking [00:34:34.919] into all these areas of investigation [00:34:36.720] that I really didn’t know much about, [00:34:38.679] you know? [00:34:39.720] So it was a journey for me to get into [00:34:41.520] all of it, but I had enough just from [00:34:43.399] what I knew already and especially from [00:34:45.399] those reincarnation cases that I knew [00:34:47.720] there was something to it. I knew there [00:34:49.159] was, you know, I’d looked into [00:34:50.240] near-death experiences a little bit. [00:34:51.919] Didn’t know that much about mediumship. [00:34:54.120] So I sat down to do this book and I had [00:34:56.200] an outline of certain areas I wanted to [00:34:57.800] cover, but I really didn’t know where a [00:34:59.120] lot of it would go. [00:35:00.840] So it was really an interesting [00:35:01.920] experience, whereas when I did the [00:35:04.000] UFO book, you know, I didn’t it wasn’t [00:35:05.680] like that. The UFO book was kind of [00:35:07.440] accumulation of 10 years of work and it [00:35:09.720] was all there and I just put it in a [00:35:11.040] book and I got other people to write [00:35:12.440] chapters, which is really cool, but [00:35:14.480] >> Yeah. it was more of a journey as I [00:35:16.359] wrote it. [00:35:17.640] Where I didn’t really know where I’d end [00:35:19.200] up. Um [00:35:20.880] So I don’t know. I I but I was [00:35:22.680] interested in it for a long time prior [00:35:24.920] to being able to do the book and it was [00:35:26.359] just such a wonderful experience to be [00:35:27.960] able to put everything else down and [00:35:29.560] really focus on this and see where it [00:35:31.240] went. Yeah. [00:35:32.600] >> I can imagine. I mean, it’s [00:35:35.000] Yeah. [00:35:35.640] >> of course, you know, my my brother died [00:35:37.240] during the process of that book, which [00:35:39.480] was of course tragic. And putting that [00:35:41.480] aside, it it became uh a part of the [00:35:44.680] book because my brother would come [00:35:46.960] through with the mediums or my brother [00:35:49.160] would come through with through these [00:35:50.280] after-death communications that I write [00:35:52.000] about. It was almost like he was part of [00:35:54.400] the the book helping me write the book. [00:35:57.400] You know, and his death was completely [00:35:59.160] unpredictable. Uh [00:36:00.960] was So, you know, that Those kinds of [00:36:03.359] things happened that I could never have [00:36:04.840] predicted. I never imagined I would be [00:36:07.000] sitting with the best physical medium in [00:36:08.680] the world, in my opinion, in the UK and [00:36:11.160] be able to write about that in my book. [00:36:12.920] So anyway, it would just worked out. It [00:36:14.760] was an incredible journey to be on and [00:36:17.320] um so it it you know, it deepened all of [00:36:19.960] it for me, but it it wasn’t like I [00:36:21.560] suddenly just decided to do this. It had [00:36:23.400] been percolating in there, percolating [00:36:25.480] me for quite a while. Yeah. [00:36:28.200] So [00:36:29.480] uh sitting again sitting with data um [00:36:33.080] what are some of the stories that really [00:36:35.280] stand out to you that shook you up? [00:36:38.320] Well, certainly the stories that I wrote [00:36:40.240] about of the two young boys, Mhm. Ryan [00:36:43.040] Hammons and um I hope I I’m going to [00:36:45.520] remember all the details cuz I didn’t [00:36:47.720] look over anything. These two young boys [00:36:49.280] who had these very vivid memories of [00:36:51.480] past lives, which were then verified. [00:36:54.600] I mean, you know, we could spend an hour [00:36:56.480] just talking about those cases, but I [00:36:57.800] don’t think we want to do that, you [00:36:59.040] know? But that’s Those were incredible [00:37:01.160] to me um [00:37:02.680] and I I got to meet the people and look [00:37:04.800] at the notes that were kept and you [00:37:06.680] know, really dove into these cases um [00:37:09.920] and worked with the the Division of [00:37:12.240] Perceptual Studies, Jim Tucker, who who [00:37:14.280] was the [00:37:15.440] taking over the work for Ian Stevenson [00:37:17.120] after he died. [00:37:18.600] And then there were the near-death [00:37:19.680] experiences, you know, um they were just [00:37:22.240] so repetitious and you know, there were [00:37:24.680] so many similarities among them. You [00:37:27.200] know, in the beginning of the book I was [00:37:28.680] more focused on establishing the fact [00:37:31.160] that consciousness can function [00:37:32.760] independently of the brain without, you [00:37:34.960] know, and then I would just ask one [00:37:36.440] question and try to address it. If [00:37:38.000] that’s the case, then can we communicate [00:37:40.000] with that consciousness and do and then [00:37:41.640] we get to mediumship and then, okay, [00:37:43.720] well, it looks like we can. But the next [00:37:46.000] question is, okay, if if the [00:37:48.160] if these independent these deceased [00:37:50.520] loved ones can communicate to us through [00:37:52.800] a medium, can they communicate to us [00:37:54.920] directly without a medium? You know, I’d [00:37:56.560] kind of go deeper and deeper with it. [00:37:58.960] Um but in terms of stories, I mean, [00:38:02.080] there are so many. There’s that one I [00:38:04.040] don’t know if you remember the story [00:38:05.240] about the shoe on the ledge. That was a [00:38:07.040] really great one. Um [00:38:09.880] You know, of this woman who Yeah, she [00:38:11.960] was in a hospital um completely had gone [00:38:14.600] under cardiac arrest and died, [00:38:16.880] basically, and then they were able to [00:38:18.160] revive her. [00:38:20.000] Um [00:38:21.480] and she claimed after she woke up that [00:38:24.200] she had gone out of her body and that [00:38:26.400] she This was a huge hospital. I have a [00:38:28.440] picture of it in my book. Huge. It was [00:38:29.960] like a you know, massive building. [00:38:32.800] And she said she had gone outside one [00:38:34.920] window of this building and there was a [00:38:37.000] Nike shoe sitting on the outside ledge [00:38:40.000] outside the window, you know, like [00:38:41.359] someone had stuck it out there. And she [00:38:43.280] was able to describe in perfect detail [00:38:45.400] the way the shoe looked, the way the [00:38:46.640] shoelaces were. There was a scuff mark [00:38:48.880] in a certain location. [00:38:50.840] You know, very very specific and and [00:38:52.680] nobody really What are you talking [00:38:53.920] about, you know? And finally, she [00:38:55.240] convinced one of the nurses [00:38:57.200] to go look for that shoe. And this nurse [00:39:00.280] went all over the building from inside [00:39:02.280] just looking out every window and [00:39:03.560] eventually she found that shoe sitting [00:39:05.400] on that ledge just like this person had [00:39:07.760] described it who had been lying in a in [00:39:09.920] a hospital room the whole time. And what [00:39:11.920] was fascinating about it was So the [00:39:13.840] specific details that she described were [00:39:15.960] all there, but what was really [00:39:17.640] fascinating about it um [00:39:19.880] was there was nothing outside and it was [00:39:22.000] seen from the perspective of outside the [00:39:24.240] window. So even the shoe was like [00:39:26.080] sitting there, the only way you could [00:39:28.040] see what she described, like the certain [00:39:30.440] scuff mark, was from the perspective of [00:39:32.880] being outside the window. You couldn’t [00:39:34.600] look from inside the building at the [00:39:36.440] shoe, which you could see that shoe [00:39:38.280] there if you just looked through the [00:39:39.600] window on the inside, but you couldn’t [00:39:41.480] see the detail she described [00:39:43.760] from that perspective. The only way you [00:39:45.320] could see those are from the outside. [00:39:47.840] Right? So, the only way the nurse could [00:39:49.320] see those was when she picked it up and [00:39:50.880] looked on the other side that was facing [00:39:52.640] out. [00:39:53.800] And there was nothing outside that ledge [00:39:56.160] on that window for anyone to stand on or [00:39:58.840] any way that anybody could climb up and [00:40:00.440] look at that outside of that shoe. You [00:40:02.400] had to be in space. It was like three or [00:40:04.800] four stories high, you know? [00:40:07.080] So, it was just [00:40:07.600] >> and let me hang on. Let me let me say [00:40:09.040] something cuz I I For anybody listening, [00:40:11.480] I just want to say observe how quickly [00:40:14.080] your mind moves to make sense of that. [00:40:16.440] And I cuz I I think psychologically we [00:40:18.240] need to pay attention to the way that [00:40:20.080] the kind the mind functions cuz we gap [00:40:22.200] fill a lot. And and it it brings up a [00:40:24.920] question that you brought up earlier, [00:40:26.240] which is even our explanation of these [00:40:29.280] things, I I’m a little suspicious that [00:40:31.480] we don’t have the capacity to explain [00:40:33.600] these things currently based on previous [00:40:35.320] models, but even even it’s arguable that [00:40:38.040] we’ll ever have the ability to explain [00:40:40.520] this until one day when we merge [00:40:42.520] together with whatever kinds of [00:40:44.480] consciousnesses exist out there. So, so [00:40:46.720] it it What I love about this material is [00:40:49.240] that it really does set up this um what [00:40:52.000] early mystical traditions really talk [00:40:53.640] about, which is not knowing. And uh [00:40:55.760] there’s the cloud of unknowing is this, [00:40:57.200] you know, anonymous writer that put out [00:40:58.760] this Christian mystical text around and [00:41:01.200] and, you know, meditating and connecting [00:41:03.480] with not knowing, not allowing the mind [00:41:05.640] to gap fill as quickly as it does cuz [00:41:08.080] it’ll just [00:41:09.480] populate with anything to make sense of [00:41:12.000] the unknown. And so, that Yeah. How have [00:41:14.600] you done that? I mean, you’re a master [00:41:16.040] of this at this point. Well, all you do [00:41:18.200] is describe what actually happened. [00:41:20.680] And that’s what the story does. And this [00:41:23.280] is And, you know, this this woman [00:41:25.720] who then became very involved with the [00:41:27.480] whole studies of near-death. I mean, [00:41:29.200] she’s still working very actively. [00:41:31.480] Um [00:41:33.320] wasn’t, you know, making up a story to [00:41:35.840] to to protect this Spanish, you know, [00:41:38.120] this [00:41:39.080] this woman who could barely speak [00:41:40.360] English, actually, who was describing [00:41:42.400] this. I think she might have even had to [00:41:43.560] get a translator [00:41:45.320] to get the woman to get understand what [00:41:46.880] the woman was saying. This woman was so [00:41:49.320] animated and excited and insistent. [00:41:52.600] I mean, this story wasn’t made up. So, [00:41:54.120] you just have the story. [00:41:56.600] Like you said, we don’t really have an [00:41:57.960] answer, but in far as the perception of [00:41:59.920] the the the woman who saw this was and [00:42:02.640] what she shared was that she was out of [00:42:04.800] her body. She left her body. She also [00:42:07.560] described other things. She went over [00:42:09.120] this awning. She described some other [00:42:10.880] things outside of the building. But the [00:42:12.760] specificity of the description of that [00:42:15.200] shoe, [00:42:16.800] you know, was [00:42:18.760] mind-blowing. And the only other way you [00:42:20.440] could possibly explain it was [00:42:23.200] that she was in some kind of altered [00:42:25.040] state of high clairvoyant ability. So, [00:42:27.520] maybe she somehow saw that shoe [00:42:30.440] from her clairvoyant mind without [00:42:32.360] actually [00:42:33.640] uh you know, and leaving the body and [00:42:35.640] floating out there in some way. [00:42:37.960] >> Yeah, or maybe it was some kind of [00:42:39.080] extrasensory perception that led her to [00:42:41.160] it to um And that’s a fair enough [00:42:43.080] argument to make. Even that is amazing [00:42:44.960] and we can’t explain it. Even that was [00:42:47.160] difficult to accept. But that’s always [00:42:49.560] the argument. How much of this is is is [00:42:52.000] has to do with, you know, the just the [00:42:54.120] extrasensory perceptive abilities of the [00:42:56.240] individual and how much of it is more [00:42:58.320] than that. And you All you can do is [00:43:00.280] listen to the person telling you the [00:43:01.800] story. That woman was convinced that she [00:43:04.560] left her body. And she saw other things [00:43:07.080] out there that she couldn’t have seen. [00:43:08.640] And she didn’t describe it as, “Well, I [00:43:10.240] had this really powerful dream.” Or, [00:43:13.040] “Yeah, I really perceived this.” [00:43:15.600] For her, it was 100% clear that she [00:43:18.160] actually traveled. So, you can either [00:43:20.640] accept that or you can say, “Well, maybe [00:43:23.480] she was confused and she didn’t actually [00:43:25.280] travel or she’s having a dream.” But [00:43:26.760] nonetheless, the data is that she [00:43:29.640] described that shoe that she couldn’t [00:43:31.480] possibly have known was there. [00:43:34.120] And that’s what I meant with Yeah. [00:43:35.920] >> what I want to plant [00:43:37.640] the the seed that I want to plant with [00:43:39.200] anybody is that [00:43:41.000] um if anybody’s listening or whatever [00:43:43.000] you’re listening to this kind of [00:43:43.840] material and if you say, “Oh, this is [00:43:45.920] this is got to be You know, [00:43:47.280] people people are fraudsters.” You know, [00:43:49.360] that’s that’s the it’s a really common [00:43:52.000] response. And And of course there are of [00:43:54.440] course there are people who who [00:43:56.200] manipulate and who are are are not [00:43:58.800] honest when it comes to these reports. [00:44:01.359] However, the thing that gives me a great [00:44:03.280] deal of confidence [00:44:06.080] is that of all of them, every single [00:44:08.480] report, every single story, right? Like [00:44:11.320] a percent of a percent of a percent [00:44:13.400] needs to be true for the whole entire [00:44:16.560] proposition to be true. And that that’s [00:44:18.760] what I really love. You know, take [00:44:20.160] thousands and thousands and thousands of [00:44:22.000] stories. You know, entire religious [00:44:23.560] traditions are based in these kinds of [00:44:25.800] assumptions about what what, you know, [00:44:27.640] non-local consciousness, which I want to [00:44:29.280] get into a second, that if if one case [00:44:32.640] is true, then it’s true. Then then our [00:44:35.920] assumptions about consciousness and [00:44:37.560] reality are limiting and limited. And [00:44:41.160] that to me makes a ton of sense, right? [00:44:43.080] Like that we are we are limited by our [00:44:46.040] our current understandings of [00:44:47.160] consciousness. [00:44:48.480] And so, that’s that’s actually what I [00:44:50.040] think what I find really compelling [00:44:51.480] about your work is that is that you’re [00:44:53.359] researching this something that that [00:44:55.640] that resists conclusions, you know, like [00:44:59.000] uh it so you hold all these open [00:45:01.560] questions and [00:45:03.400] I so I’m I’m really interested what that [00:45:05.400] discipline feels like for you. How you [00:45:08.520] maintain a discipline in relationship [00:45:11.160] with things that don’t don’t don’t fall [00:45:13.480] into nice tidy boxes. Yeah, I mean, I [00:45:16.320] think certainly for the book, you know, [00:45:18.240] I found the most credible cases that had [00:45:21.000] the most compelling data, many of them [00:45:23.440] scientifically investigated. I mean, [00:45:25.120] it’s all about choosing what you are [00:45:27.680] going to bring forward as evidence. And [00:45:30.080] you talk about you know, the stories in [00:45:32.359] religion and so on. I mean, the story of [00:45:34.240] that shoe was so evidential because her [00:45:37.200] description matched what this other [00:45:39.000] person found. It’s what data. And that [00:45:41.720] shoe was brought down to the room and a [00:45:43.200] lot of other people saw it and everybody [00:45:44.960] was amazed in the hospital and they [00:45:46.560] were, you know, we were all talking [00:45:47.640] about it. I mean, it wasn’t It was very [00:45:49.240] hardcore. And there were lots of stories [00:45:50.960] like that where people are, you know, [00:45:53.920] are clinically dead and then they’re [00:45:55.480] they’re up at the ceiling of the room [00:45:56.960] and when they come back, they describe [00:45:58.440] what exactly people were saying in the [00:46:00.080] room, what they saw. So, um I think [00:46:02.560] it’s, you know, for me it it’s so much [00:46:05.080] in terms of the evidential aspect of it [00:46:06.880] is selecting what information you feel [00:46:09.720] to be the most compelling at that level. [00:46:11.920] And that’s what you bring forward cuz [00:46:14.040] you’re right, there are a zillion [00:46:15.200] stories, but you want to find the ones [00:46:17.120] that are documented, that have been [00:46:18.800] studied, that have been published, you [00:46:21.000] know, that the people like Bruce [00:46:22.640] Greyson, the cases he has studied in [00:46:24.560] near-death experiences, the experts have [00:46:26.359] studied, you know, Pim van Lommel, all [00:46:28.040] these incredible cardiologists and, you [00:46:31.320] know, trained PhDs who have studied [00:46:33.920] spent decades studying these kinds of [00:46:35.480] cases. So, you’re going to go to the [00:46:36.640] ones that they have looked into and that [00:46:39.240] they feel are the most evidential. And [00:46:41.400] you know, so so it’s really as a [00:46:42.720] reporter, as a journalist, my job is to [00:46:44.720] sort it all out, you know, and try to [00:46:46.600] find the most evidential stuff. And [00:46:48.760] that’s the stuff that’s really hard to [00:46:50.160] argue with. It’s not just a story. [00:46:52.200] There’s data that goes with it. There’s [00:46:53.760] a lot that goes with it to sort of prove [00:46:55.720] its validity. The interpretation of it, [00:46:58.320] of course, is what you’re you’re [00:46:59.480] focusing on, you know, is what the [00:47:00.800] unanswered question is. And that’s left [00:47:03.080] up to the person, but, you know, when [00:47:04.640] you see one after the other after the [00:47:06.440] other after the other, um the [00:47:08.320] conclusions tend to point in a certain [00:47:10.000] direction. And you can you can let the [00:47:12.440] participants describe what their [00:47:14.800] perception is of what was actually [00:47:16.720] happening. And you may or may not accept [00:47:19.000] it, but they can tell you their [00:47:20.240] experience. And all the it all kind of [00:47:22.520] adds up like a bunch of building blocks [00:47:24.400] until you have this sort of building of [00:47:26.200] something that’s really solid, you know? [00:47:28.440] So, yeah, I just think it’s a matter of [00:47:30.280] sorting it all out and um trying to find [00:47:33.080] the the most compelling stories. Yeah. [00:47:35.480] And your I mean, it it I I I imagine [00:47:38.240] that your training cuz I I think about [00:47:40.400] the work that I did for my doctorate, it [00:47:42.160] was phenomenological research and part [00:47:45.000] of the process is actually taking [00:47:46.880] assumption and bias out of the mix. I [00:47:49.240] know it’s hard to do, but it’s a [00:47:50.320] practice. It’s a practice of not saying, [00:47:52.960] “I’m going to allow for my preconceived [00:47:54.640] notion to populate what I’m seeing and [00:47:56.720] observing. I’m just going to as best I [00:47:58.960] can really cleanse the interior [00:48:01.520] landscape so that I can meet these [00:48:03.280] dynamics head-on.” [00:48:04.560] >> Right. [00:48:04.960] >> Which then leads me to believe I I I [00:48:07.520] just imagine that your Zen [00:48:09.720] your experiences in Zen and certainly [00:48:12.560] your inner work has prepared you to be a [00:48:15.720] little more present with what might or [00:48:17.840] might not come up for you. We We speak [00:48:19.600] to that a little bit? Yeah, I mean, and [00:48:21.880] and what you’re saying about bias, yeah. [00:48:23.280] I mean, I’m practicing, you know, I’m I [00:48:25.240] wrote Surviving Death from the [00:48:26.440] perspective of an investigative [00:48:27.760] journalist. And I took on that [00:48:29.680] responsibility and there’s you cannot [00:48:31.840] have bias in doing that kind of a job, [00:48:33.840] right? You’re just objectively [00:48:35.280] presenting evidence. And um I tried to [00:48:38.560] do that as best I could because really I [00:48:40.240] went into it with an open mind. As I [00:48:42.080] told you, I didn’t know where it was [00:48:43.120] going to land. So, I think that’s a lot [00:48:45.200] of it. Yeah, I mean, um it’s just That’s [00:48:48.440] a lot of what journalism is about, [00:48:50.160] right? You know, you cannot have any [00:48:51.800] preconceived idea or or complete You [00:48:53.840] can’t draw conclusions even after you [00:48:56.040] present the data. You don’t draw [00:48:57.120] conclusions really. So, I just think [00:48:59.440] that’s a particular ability that I have [00:49:01.960] and, you know, it was really interesting [00:49:04.000] to do that with something as sort of um [00:49:07.240] you know, far-reaching and kind of non [00:49:09.440] that doesn’t lend itself to journalism. [00:49:11.200] Something like the question of surviving [00:49:12.920] death is not something most people would [00:49:15.080] approach through journalism. So, it was [00:49:16.440] really fun to do that, but I really [00:49:17.880] applied this the principles of [00:49:19.160] journalism to that question in the same [00:49:21.520] way that I would on any other kind of [00:49:23.000] story I was writing. Yeah, and that this [00:49:25.080] goes a little bit I’ll certainly return [00:49:27.440] here. Um however, it brings up a [00:49:29.880] question about what we’re seeing in [00:49:32.400] modern journalism where there there’s so [00:49:35.200] much opinion, there’s so much [00:49:37.480] like it’s it’s really refreshing to hear [00:49:39.320] somebody talk about the ethics of [00:49:41.280] journalism and that is a kind of [00:49:43.880] I mean I look at it as a like a [00:49:44.920] psychological and spiritual kind of [00:49:46.840] orientation, you know, where somebody is [00:49:48.480] going at reality based upon what they’re [00:49:51.080] reporting, the description, the what are [00:49:53.160] you seeing? And so do you have what [00:49:55.480] comments do you have about what’s [00:49:56.720] currently happening in journalism and [00:49:58.120] what you’re seeing in the landscape of [00:49:59.560] journalism? I think I mean I think [00:50:02.280] nowadays [00:50:04.000] yeah, the the the definition of [00:50:05.840] investigative journalist has become a [00:50:07.560] very loose term that everybody who has a [00:50:09.440] podcast throws around. So people decide [00:50:12.960] I’m an investigative reporter because I [00:50:14.640] have a podcast. In the old days, you [00:50:17.320] know, you worked with editors. You had [00:50:19.760] to pass a certain level of credibility. [00:50:23.240] You had to to follow certain rules and [00:50:26.680] you always had editors, people [00:50:29.040] scrutinizing your work. It was vetted, [00:50:31.320] right? Mhm. And so for today in today’s [00:50:34.760] world where everybody wants their news [00:50:36.240] super fast so the news tends to go more [00:50:39.400] into podcast now than into print [00:50:41.040] journalism and it goes out there fast [00:50:43.320] and then it’s not vetted. So it’s much [00:50:45.440] sloppier in my opinion. Mhm. It’s [00:50:47.720] exciting to get the news right away and [00:50:49.840] you all you know often these in-depth [00:50:51.440] interviews, you know, rather than [00:50:53.080] having, you know, a story where you [00:50:55.360] quote someone, you get to spend an hour [00:50:57.720] hearing them talk. I mean it’s all [00:50:59.360] great, but it’s a very different from, [00:51:02.840] you know, when I started out with this [00:51:04.520] business and what journalism used to be [00:51:06.480] thought of. I think it’s um it’s just a [00:51:09.360] it’s a looser kind of world now with [00:51:11.880] respect to that. And publications like [00:51:13.760] the New York Times still have the same [00:51:15.280] standards, but print journalism is not [00:51:18.840] the you know, it used to be pretty much [00:51:20.360] all there was. You know, we had TV and [00:51:22.800] we had print journalism. We didn’t have [00:51:24.240] the internet. So now that everybody’s on [00:51:26.320] the internet, it’s just a different [00:51:27.720] world. It’s like the wild west, you [00:51:29.520] know, everybody [00:51:30.325] >> [laughter] [00:51:30.840] >> It does feel like that. and everybody [00:51:32.400] describes themselves as being a [00:51:32.920] journalist without necessarily following [00:51:35.320] what most journalists from the old days [00:51:37.600] would consider to be the rules that you [00:51:39.880] follow. So, you know, I’ve had to adjust [00:51:41.920] to that. It’s just a different world [00:51:43.440] now, but there’s pros and cons to it. [00:51:46.080] You know, I mean here’s an example. [00:51:47.640] Ralph and Blumenthal and I broke the [00:51:49.400] story initially of David Grusch in the [00:51:52.120] in the in the publication called The [00:51:53.480] Debrief and it was a print story and it [00:51:56.040] got a huge number of views, but it was [00:51:58.760] followed by Ross Coulthart’s interview [00:52:01.400] with David Grusch for like an hour and a [00:52:02.960] half, you know, and those were two [00:52:05.160] different types of journalism. Mhm. And [00:52:07.680] our story not only involved quotes from [00:52:09.960] him, but it involved background, it [00:52:11.640] involved talking about who he was and [00:52:13.440] why we should believe what he said. It [00:52:15.000] talked it had included quotes from other [00:52:16.840] people who vouched for him. You know, it [00:52:19.400] had a certain context for the whole [00:52:21.160] story and a certain gravitas to it that [00:52:23.920] journalism tends to bring to things. And [00:52:25.800] then so, you know, that’s what that’s [00:52:28.400] what Ralph Blumenthal and I do. We do [00:52:30.400] our stories like that, but when you when [00:52:32.840] you can go out, you know, 5 days later [00:52:35.160] and watch this in-depth interview with [00:52:36.920] David Grusch [00:52:38.400] on a podcast, you’re likely if you have [00:52:40.160] a choice between the two, you’re going [00:52:41.320] to go to the podcast. Mhm. So um you [00:52:44.640] know, so that’s I’m kind of you know, [00:52:46.400] I’m kind of I have to struggle with that [00:52:48.000] to tell you the truth because there’s [00:52:49.160] less [00:52:50.480] >> there’s less need for the kind of [00:52:51.720] reporting that I do and that Ralph and I [00:52:53.840] do together [00:52:55.520] than there used to [00:52:56.160] >> There’s more need for it. There’s [00:52:57.840] there’s maybe less of an appetite, you [00:52:59.600] know, yeah. But there’s less [00:53:01.240] opportunity. Let’s put it that way [00:53:03.200] because [00:53:04.320] when we’re writing a story for let’s say [00:53:05.920] the New York Times, it takes weeks to [00:53:07.920] write it and then to go through the [00:53:09.120] editing and vetting process. And you [00:53:12.080] know, when somebody wants to break a [00:53:13.400] story really fast, they don’t want to [00:53:15.920] wait for that. So if there’s a [00:53:17.920] whistleblower wants to come forward [00:53:20.360] they will choose to go on, you know, to [00:53:21.880] to to speak on a podcast for two or [00:53:24.160] three hours and and I understand that [00:53:26.320] choice, you know, rather than waiting [00:53:28.560] for three three weeks [00:53:30.760] for these two journalists to kind of get [00:53:32.360] their thing together with the New York [00:53:33.960] Times or whatever we are, you know, I [00:53:36.200] understand it. I mean it’s just the way [00:53:37.600] things work now. [00:53:39.440] But it just makes the kind of reporting [00:53:41.160] that I used to do and that I now do with [00:53:42.720] Ralph, you know, there’s less and less [00:53:44.760] opportunities for us to make a [00:53:46.560] difference in that vein when the people [00:53:49.280] we would like to write about are already [00:53:51.320] out there on a podcast that we can’t we [00:53:53.120] have to be able to write about something [00:53:54.400] that hasn’t happened yet, you know. So [00:53:56.520] It just makes it more difficult. Yeah. [00:53:58.760] Yeah, I mean you’re an initiated person [00:54:00.960] in the profession, you know, you’ve been [00:54:02.560] you’ve gone through the process and I I [00:54:05.240] I actually don’t even in the beginning [00:54:07.200] of the interview when I say, “Look, I’m [00:54:08.280] not a journalist, you know, this is like [00:54:10.040] I I want to be really clear the kind of [00:54:12.400] orientation that I have which is I [00:54:14.640] certainly have a researcher’s mind and I [00:54:17.200] I want to go to experts who’ve who’ve [00:54:19.240] been researching material and ask them [00:54:21.160] questions. As you and I said like I I’m [00:54:24.080] I’m not so interested in the nuts and [00:54:25.480] bolts argument of UFOs or surviving [00:54:28.960] death, you know, I I’m interested in the [00:54:31.040] way that it transforms you [00:54:33.160] in the way that it’s transformed the [00:54:34.720] people that have interviewed and [00:54:37.120] connected with, but I I found myself as [00:54:39.040] I was reading your book and watching the [00:54:40.160] documentary [00:54:41.480] I was just sitting back going, “Oh my [00:54:42.880] god, Leslie, like you’ve been in this [00:54:44.960] for [00:54:45.920] decades and that is some powerful [00:54:48.400] provocative material to be interested in [00:54:51.520] and living and talking about and I’m so [00:54:55.040] drawn into the the kind of qualitative [00:54:57.840] experience of your life and that then [00:55:01.200] what how that transforms how you show up [00:55:03.600] and what you believe and listen to. And [00:55:05.640] so that’s that’s certainly the [00:55:06.920] orientation I have which um which is not [00:55:10.160] important. It it is, yeah. And and so [00:55:12.480] >> It’s important for people who have [00:55:13.840] experiences and don’t know how to [00:55:15.080] process it. What we call ontological [00:55:17.280] shock. And you talked about your world. [00:55:19.200] I was going to say when you talked about [00:55:20.680] your world being shattered, that is not [00:55:23.200] always I don’t want people to hear that [00:55:25.080] as only a negative as a negative. I mean [00:55:27.120] if it’s trauma certainly all kinds of [00:55:29.560] ways your world can be shattered that [00:55:30.880] can be devastating and and you know, not [00:55:33.840] positive, but when we’re talking about [00:55:35.960] spiritual kind of realization or cracks [00:55:38.960] in your worldview, even though it’s [00:55:41.000] destabilizing, it’s also very positive [00:55:43.120] and transforming in a good way. At least [00:55:45.120] that’s been my experience with [00:55:46.160] ontological shock. It just opens you up [00:55:48.280] and takes you takes you more in touch [00:55:50.080] with this other reality. Yeah, and and [00:55:52.320] we talk about it in the psychedelic [00:55:53.520] space when you it’s integration work, [00:55:56.200] you know, and that [00:55:57.520] people people in the psychedelic space [00:55:59.120] will say there’s there’s no such thing [00:56:00.200] as a bad trip only bad integration and [00:56:02.400] that’s kind of a you know [00:56:05.240] you know, this fast way of saying that, [00:56:07.040] you know, you [00:56:08.840] making sense of being in community, [00:56:11.440] being connected, being reflective. And I [00:56:14.200] immediately imagine that people who are [00:56:16.040] experiencers, whether it’s near-death [00:56:17.880] experience or out-of-body experience or [00:56:20.040] UFO or [00:56:21.600] uh you know, some kind of encounter with [00:56:24.560] an other [00:56:26.200] I just don’t imagine there’s a lot of [00:56:28.480] opportunity for integration. [00:56:30.440] Yeah, I guess it’s more of the sort of [00:56:31.880] ontological shock, but I think [00:56:33.560] eventually you have there has to be it [00:56:35.640] has to become integrated or you’re just [00:56:37.120] not going to function. Right. Yeah. [00:56:39.520] >> I mean it just happens naturally. You [00:56:41.040] can’t necessarily force it. Yeah. But I [00:56:43.600] think naturally it happens um and you [00:56:46.920] just have to sit with it, you know, and [00:56:48.359] then it’ll naturally become part of you [00:56:50.240] and then you’ll get you have to get your [00:56:51.480] feet back on the ground and go on with [00:56:52.800] your life, but you’re a different [00:56:53.920] person. Yeah, do the dishes. That’s how [00:56:56.120] I look at it, yeah. [00:56:57.680] Um and it’s it’s not it’s it’s a [00:57:00.000] positive thing for sure. Um but yeah, [00:57:02.760] and I’ve never had any experience with [00:57:04.080] psychedelics just to throw that in [00:57:05.520] there. Yeah, that’s that’s my yeah, [00:57:06.960] that’s my thread. [00:57:08.280] And it’s also I think there are [00:57:09.560] similarities, you know, just so for [00:57:11.280] anybody viewing watching that’s that’s [00:57:13.160] I’m baking into this conversation. I’m [00:57:15.359] I’m kind of associating the [00:57:17.200] conversations I’ve had with folks that [00:57:19.200] are in the psychedelic community, how [00:57:21.120] those kinds of radical and destabilizing [00:57:23.400] experiences are are brought back into [00:57:26.760] daily [00:57:28.200] waking ordinary life and um [00:57:31.720] held, you know, that that we essentially [00:57:34.000] then have to live our lives differently [00:57:35.760] because of the experiences we’ve [00:57:37.840] encountered which don’t make sense to [00:57:40.320] our previous understanding of [00:57:42.280] consciousness even. So you said [00:57:44.320] something I want to go into which is [00:57:45.680] non-local consciousness. I want to [00:57:47.760] really dig into that and and look at [00:57:50.760] what you’ve what you’ve learned about [00:57:52.960] that idea, non-local consciousness. What [00:57:55.000] is that and can we talk about all the [00:57:57.440] kind of connected threads to that [00:57:58.760] tissue? Yeah, I mean I know you know [00:58:01.480] exactly what I’m talking about because [00:58:02.640] there’s so many I mean you even listed I [00:58:04.520] think in your piece all the different [00:58:06.160] words that can be used to describe it, [00:58:08.280] whatever it is, you know, it’s the I [00:58:10.600] just like that term because I have it in [00:58:13.040] my book because Pim van Lommel who’s [00:58:15.120] this amazing It’s a great word, yeah, [00:58:17.280] great. [00:58:18.440] You know, wrote about it in his chapter. [00:58:20.400] That’s what he called it. Uh but it’s [00:58:22.359] basically sort of the field of [00:58:24.080] consciousness. If you’re going to accept [00:58:26.359] the fact that the consciousness that we [00:58:28.880] were in touch with is not generated by [00:58:30.760] the brain, but that there’s a greater [00:58:32.760] field of consciousness out there, that’s [00:58:35.200] sort of the one one way to describe it. [00:58:37.440] Um you know, some people might call it [00:58:39.400] spirit or God or I mean you probably [00:58:42.480] have more ways of describing it than I [00:58:44.280] do in my lexicon, but it’s just that [00:58:46.680] bigger reality and that we all can [00:58:49.520] connect with it in various ways and at [00:58:51.200] various times, but that we’re not just [00:58:53.520] it’s just [00:58:54.680] the experience of not being limited just [00:58:57.040] to the brain and that believing that [00:59:00.000] everything, you know, all consciousness [00:59:01.840] is generated by the brain. Mhm. I mean [00:59:04.760] he describes it as more like a TV or [00:59:08.280] like an antenna and we’re tapping into [00:59:11.359] this bigger bigger consciousness which [00:59:13.520] he calls non-local and that [00:59:15.920] you know, I mean nobody nobody’s been [00:59:17.920] able to explain no scientist has been [00:59:19.560] able to explain how consciousness works [00:59:21.080] in the brain and how it’s generated by [00:59:22.520] the brain. So you know That that’s [00:59:24.200] what’s baffling to me is that [00:59:26.320] Bernardo Kastrup and I talked at one [00:59:28.080] point and he gave me some of the some [00:59:30.280] gold which is he said something about, [00:59:32.560] you know, modern science, the three most [00:59:34.040] unanswered questions or unanswerable [00:59:35.800] questions are what is consciousness, [00:59:37.600] what is matter, and how do the two [00:59:39.080] interact? And I thought, “Oh my god.” [00:59:40.880] >> Right. [00:59:41.520] That’s really and that’s like all of [00:59:43.120] life right there, you [laughter] know? [00:59:45.000] Totally. And so, I mean, I find it if [00:59:47.640] you just look at the shoe in the ledge [00:59:49.120] story, Yeah. that’s one story. Even if [00:59:52.400] that woman didn’t leave her body, she [00:59:53.960] had some kind of perceptual ability that [00:59:56.360] was way beyond the brain Yeah. to [00:59:58.360] perceive that shoe on that ledge, you [01:00:00.920] know? I mean, it’s just there’s so many [01:00:02.800] incidences that that show us that [01:00:05.440] consciousness is way beyond just our [01:00:07.240] little physical brain. And so, I you [01:00:09.240] know, it’s very hard to put it into [01:00:10.600] words, and I’m sure you can probably do [01:00:12.880] a better, you know, you’re very good at [01:00:14.200] doing that you can do a better job than [01:00:15.360] I do, but it’s just that bigger field. [01:00:18.200] Yeah. [01:00:18.520] >> However, you want to whatever and people [01:00:20.520] are going to describe it in different [01:00:21.760] ways depending on their own frame of [01:00:23.200] reference. And I you know, I respect [01:00:24.960] that, but I think basically we’re all [01:00:26.640] sort of pointing towards the same thing [01:00:28.280] just using different language. [01:00:30.400] Well, and you said it, right? Like I [01:00:32.160] love the Daoist the Daoist teaching of [01:00:34.280] when I point to the moon, don’t look at [01:00:35.520] my finger. You know, that that all of [01:00:37.360] these ideas, the words, categories, [01:00:39.360] they’re pointing to something, but don’t [01:00:41.000] think that that’s the thing. And and [01:00:42.720] unfortunately, that’s in large part what [01:00:44.520] I think um [01:00:46.800] you know, don’t don’t create false idols [01:00:48.840] if you use a Christian um orientation. [01:00:51.320] It’s like we we’ve created false idols [01:00:53.120] all the time. We we create idols out of [01:00:55.160] the finger pointing to the moon and and [01:00:57.200] forget, you know, cuz we we lack a real [01:00:59.040] training here. So, I want You said [01:01:01.240] ontological shock, and I want to kind of [01:01:03.960] dive into the the the the the tissue of [01:01:06.880] that, you know, what what have been your [01:01:09.560] um ontologically shocking moments that [01:01:12.720] have sha- shaken you? [01:01:14.800] Yeah, I mean, there’ve been I think lots [01:01:16.880] of them along the way, you know? I mean, [01:01:18.840] UFOs being the first one. I mean, it [01:01:21.760] took me really years to cuz I I have a [01:01:25.160] very, you know, I have a lot of doubt in [01:01:27.240] my mind. I’m very I’m hard to please [01:01:29.720] when it comes to being convinced of [01:01:31.000] something. So, I mean, I I was reporting [01:01:33.080] on UFOs, but I always had this kernel of [01:01:35.320] doubt, and I always was saying, “Well, [01:01:36.640] maybe maybe it’s maybe they’re all [01:01:38.120] explainable, you know?” [01:01:40.080] And then there just came a point where [01:01:41.560] it just suddenly I don’t remember what [01:01:43.160] the specific thing was, but maybe it was [01:01:44.920] the accumulation where it just suddenly [01:01:47.400] it was like, “Oh my god, this is these [01:01:50.440] these things are not human. They they’re [01:01:53.920] real, and they’re not human, you know?” [01:01:56.080] And and I just remember there was a [01:01:58.080] moment where I just sort of got it, you [01:02:00.560] know? But it took [01:02:02.680] you know, and that was one level, and [01:02:04.560] you just sort of shift your perception [01:02:07.400] of all of it. You shift your [01:02:09.680] I don’t know how to describe it. But it [01:02:11.840] it’s it when it first happens, you’re [01:02:13.920] you’re kind of spaced out. You feel kind [01:02:15.680] of disconnected to the physical world, [01:02:17.360] you know, you’re kind of going into some [01:02:18.680] other reality. I’ve had it happen with [01:02:20.640] other things. Um [01:02:23.080] And then it gets integrated, and you [01:02:25.000] kind of get grounded again like we’re [01:02:26.360] saying earlier, but it’s hard for me to [01:02:28.040] imagine very you know, I mean, I’ve had [01:02:31.320] you know, there were moments with [01:02:32.280] Stewart Alexander, you know, where just [01:02:34.520] whenever things happen that are so [01:02:37.320] challenge are so I don’t know how to say [01:02:39.400] it. You know, radically unbelievable, [01:02:42.280] yet they happen. But you’re witnessing [01:02:44.200] the impossible, Mhm. and [clears throat] [01:02:46.320] and it’s real, it’s going to give you [01:02:49.680] that onto la- hit of ontological shock, [01:02:51.920] you know? I mean, one of the I think [01:02:53.920] probably one of the more intense ones [01:02:55.400] for me was experiencing a full form [01:02:58.920] materialization in Stewart Alexander’s [01:03:01.960] sanatorium. Speak to that. What do you [01:03:03.880] mean by that? [01:03:04.360] >> That is like I mean, in in his and I [01:03:06.600] recommend anyone interested in this to [01:03:08.520] read Stewart Alexander’s memoir, which [01:03:10.400] is called An Extraordinary Journey, [01:03:11.720] which I wrote an epilogue for that book, [01:03:14.520] and I describe this experience. It’s [01:03:16.400] very hard to put into words. [01:03:18.840] But I mean, I talk about ecstasy, too. [01:03:21.360] This one was an ecstatic experience for [01:03:23.560] me. [01:03:24.880] And this is again something that has [01:03:26.520] happened throughout history and has been [01:03:28.280] documented and studied by scientists. I [01:03:30.280] don’t want people to think this is this [01:03:31.840] is just all freaky craziness cuz it’s [01:03:34.440] not. I mean, you have to study the [01:03:35.920] literature to really understand the [01:03:37.640] context for it. So, if you people can [01:03:40.360] just accept that there is a context for [01:03:42.200] this and it has been studied and has [01:03:43.800] been shown to be real. So, anyway, [01:03:46.160] and um what happened was um [01:03:49.000] when you’re when you’re sitting with [01:03:50.359] this physical medium, his name is [01:03:51.560] Stewart, right? He goes into a trance [01:03:53.320] state, so he’s which means he kind of [01:03:56.160] goes somewhere else from his body. He’s [01:03:58.000] completely unconscious throughout the [01:03:59.600] whole uh what we call seance or sitting. [01:04:02.760] Let’s call it a seance even though I [01:04:04.320] don’t like the word, but that’s what [01:04:05.560] it’s called. So, he’s gone, and these [01:04:08.040] spirit entities uh speak through his [01:04:10.760] body, and they use his body to do what [01:04:13.000] they’re going to do. And during that [01:04:14.880] process, he exudes the substance I was [01:04:17.040] describing called ectoplasm. And so, in [01:04:19.680] this situation where where there’s a [01:04:21.440] full form materialization, which doesn’t [01:04:23.280] happen that often, there’s a there’s he [01:04:26.160] sits inside this kind of curtained area, [01:04:29.400] and where the energy is kind of [01:04:32.320] coalesced, and the [01:04:34.480] the ectoplasm is is exuded, and enough [01:04:36.880] of it is exuded that this entity, whose [01:04:40.040] name is Dr. Barnett, who also is [01:04:42.720] somebody who speaks in the room [01:04:45.320] independently of Stewart’s body. So, [01:04:47.200] this is a an entity who speaks in the [01:04:49.359] air, you know? And the voice is very [01:04:51.480] familiar to me. I’ve [01:04:52.840] I’ve been experiencing him him for [01:04:54.320] years, but that alone is incredible. So, [01:04:56.520] there’s a very familiar voice. Anyway, [01:04:58.400] inside this cabinet, you suddenly and [01:05:01.000] it’s dark in the room, but there are [01:05:02.880] luminous tabs on various things. There [01:05:05.320] are luminous bands on the entrance to [01:05:08.080] this curtained area, and you see it [01:05:09.920] starts to shake, and you can hear the [01:05:12.160] footsteps of this walking into the room. [01:05:15.080] Stewart is still strapped to his chair [01:05:17.480] inside this curtained area. And this [01:05:21.160] entity comes into the room, and you hear [01:05:22.520] the footsteps, and he goes around and [01:05:23.960] touches people. And you as a sitter have [01:05:26.840] to be very careful to follow the rules. [01:05:29.000] You cannot reach out or grab or touch [01:05:32.240] that person because ectoplasm is a very [01:05:34.880] sensitive bit stuff. And it’s a very, [01:05:37.560] very sensitive, highly sensitive process [01:05:39.760] for this to happen. So, you have to be [01:05:40.920] very respectful of not disrupting it, [01:05:43.760] and it and which could uh injure the [01:05:46.600] medium if you did something really crazy [01:05:48.520] like flip the lights on suddenly. And [01:05:50.080] that’s That’s happened throughout [01:05:51.520] history. That’s a whole other story, [01:05:53.440] which I’ve looked into a lot and wrote [01:05:55.280] about, but [01:05:56.720] the what happened here, so you can hear [01:05:58.760] Dr. Barnett [01:06:00.320] walking around the circle, and you he’s [01:06:03.440] talking, and I recognize the voice [01:06:05.240] because um it’s he’s come through the [01:06:07.640] circle many, many times before. And in [01:06:09.880] this And I’ve seen him materialize [01:06:11.400] before, too, but in this particular [01:06:12.480] case, he walked up in front of me, and [01:06:15.080] he’s standing right in front of me, and [01:06:17.000] he put his two his two very large hands [01:06:19.680] on top of my head like this, and I could [01:06:21.680] feel them. And he was going like this [01:06:23.440] for about a minute. I was like up and [01:06:25.240] down like this on my on the top of my [01:06:27.040] head, and I could hear his voice. You [01:06:29.080] you know, he was right in front of me. [01:06:30.160] You can tell if somebody is near you or [01:06:31.920] far away. And he just said I something [01:06:34.200] like, “I just want to show you that I’m [01:06:36.240] I’m a real human being” or something [01:06:38.000] like I forget exactly the words. I [01:06:40.359] should have looked them up before we got [01:06:41.760] on here, but something like, “I just [01:06:43.200] want to show you that I’m I’m a human [01:06:45.240] being” or something like that. And I [01:06:46.760] felt those hands on my head. They were [01:06:48.920] very large hands. And then you hear him [01:06:52.160] walking back into the cabinet, which is [01:06:54.680] called the cabinet, which is this [01:06:55.800] curtain little curtain kind of tent [01:06:57.440] area, and he just vanishes. So, it is [01:07:01.400] the most mind-blowing experience [01:07:05.280] that this physical being was created out [01:07:07.720] of nothing and then returns to nothing. [01:07:10.400] But he’s very physical when he’s there. [01:07:12.840] Um he also, you know, he touches other [01:07:14.000] people in the room, too. And you can [01:07:15.720] hear as I said, you can hear him walk [01:07:16.960] around. [01:07:18.359] So, and and you can feel his hands on [01:07:20.920] your head. I mean, that’s They were [01:07:22.440] physical, normal feeling hands, just [01:07:25.000] very large. And everybody else in the [01:07:26.880] circle is still sitting there. We all [01:07:28.640] know each other. People are holding [01:07:30.200] hands. It’s not like somebody up in this [01:07:31.800] is getting up in the circle and faking [01:07:33.359] this. It just isn’t happening. I’ve [01:07:34.960] looked into this extensively. I know all [01:07:37.640] the people in the group. This has been [01:07:39.320] going on for decades. Stewart’s been [01:07:41.080] been doing this for 50 years. So, um [01:07:44.000] yeah, I mean, so that is an example of [01:07:46.800] an intense ontological shock, you know? [01:07:49.720] But it also felt it felt ecstatic to me. [01:07:52.280] It felt like, you know, just so [01:07:55.160] mind-blowing. All I could do when I All [01:07:57.520] I could say to him when he was touching [01:07:59.080] me was I’m I’m so grateful. I’m so [01:08:01.160] grateful. Thank you so much. It was just [01:08:02.640] like so explosive to me. I just wanted [01:08:04.440] to pour my gratitude out to Dr. Barnett [01:08:07.280] for giving me that experience. And um [01:08:10.120] yeah, you just can’t comprehend how [01:08:12.320] something like that could ever happen. [01:08:14.400] And that’s what the shock part is. But [01:08:16.759] it did happen. Yeah. [01:08:18.359] >> But it was also [01:08:20.160] as I said, just an ecstatic mind you [01:08:23.280] know, takes you out of the physical [01:08:24.680] world in a very, very wonderful way. [01:08:27.520] So, I wouldn’t It wasn’t shocking in any [01:08:29.480] kind of a negative way at all. It wasn’t [01:08:31.160] scary or anything like that. It was just [01:08:34.040] um [01:08:35.120] yeah, I mean, [01:08:37.160] very hard to put it into words. Well, [01:08:39.319] and you kept saying that, and I I I [01:08:40.880] wanted to circle back to that because so [01:08:42.839] far [01:08:44.319] and this is territory that I’m really [01:08:46.240] interested in, which is mystical [01:08:47.640] experience, and you’re you’re you’re [01:08:50.200] talking about the ineffability of these [01:08:53.440] kinds of the word you used earlier, [01:08:56.200] which is probably more digestible for [01:08:58.080] most folks, is direct experience, which [01:09:00.719] which you know, category this is this is [01:09:02.799] category of experience where you say, [01:09:04.160] “Okay, it’s ineffable. It it’s [01:09:06.080] transient. It feels like there’s a [01:09:07.960] download of some sort where you’re [01:09:09.400] transformed.” You know, it feels like [01:09:11.759] there’s some conclusions about reality [01:09:13.759] like that there’s a kind of oneness to [01:09:15.920] reality. [01:09:17.319] Uh words like as I wrote about in the in [01:09:19.040] the piece or I’m releasing this new [01:09:20.359] piece tomorrow, actually, that [01:09:21.520] everything belongs or we’re all one or [01:09:23.359] it’s all love, you know, these these [01:09:25.440] potent potently connected and then oddly [01:09:29.080] enough these Buddhist ideas around like [01:09:30.759] interdependent co-arising and the [01:09:33.799] and dual aspect monism, which all these [01:09:36.080] like kind of weird philosophical and [01:09:37.960] metaphysical orientations that are [01:09:40.319] suggesting that this the limitations of [01:09:43.600] this being are not what we’ve perceived [01:09:47.160] them to be, that that we’re much more [01:09:49.640] interconnected and the brain or the body [01:09:51.920] or the skin is not where we end. And [01:09:54.680] that’s pretty radical based on kind of [01:09:57.280] how we’ve how we’ve understood ourselves [01:09:59.880] and the world to be. Right, I agree with [01:10:02.320] you. I think that the best one one can [01:10:04.920] do is try is have an experience of that [01:10:07.400] directly, as I said. And that can be [01:10:09.240] done through meditation, you know, or [01:10:11.640] all kinds of ways. Where you if you [01:10:13.760] learn, you know, depending on your [01:10:14.920] particular tradition or you’re in [01:10:16.440] meditative states, you can perceive [01:10:18.200] yourself or you can you can enter into a [01:10:20.720] state of non-duality. Yeah. I mean, at [01:10:23.760] least to some extent, you know, you can [01:10:25.920] have a perception of [01:10:27.920] of that connecting to that larger [01:10:30.200] reality. In all different kinds of ways. [01:10:33.080] Um and and certain kinds of I mean, [01:10:36.160] I think what’s ineffable from I could [01:10:38.080] describe the actual experience outside [01:10:40.960] of me, but what I what’s ineffable is [01:10:42.600] trying to describe what it felt like and [01:10:44.400] what it means to me. That’s the part [01:10:45.960] that’s hard to put in words. But, you [01:10:47.960] know, people I mean, people who have a [01:10:49.640] UFO a sighting, they can feel that way, [01:10:52.200] too. You know, that there’s something [01:10:54.480] there’s some way they’re connecting to [01:10:55.960] that the energy from the UFO that is [01:10:58.560] taking them way beyond the physical, you [01:11:01.880] know, feeling imprisoned in a physical [01:11:03.360] body. I mean, I just think it happens to [01:11:05.480] people a lot in different contexts. [01:11:07.560] There’s nothing like experiencing it [01:11:09.560] yourself. [01:11:11.120] And then you know that it’s real in a [01:11:13.360] way. And I what I love about, you know, [01:11:15.760] I love trying to present it all through [01:11:17.360] evidence [01:11:18.680] because I also think that’s really an [01:11:20.440] important and there are people who can [01:11:22.080] read Surviving Death who who have never [01:11:23.800] had that experience and never will and [01:11:25.560] maybe don’t want to. But, they can still [01:11:27.520] learn from the evidence that the chances [01:11:30.200] are we you know, they their perception [01:11:32.440] of consciousness probably isn’t accurate [01:11:34.240] and we probably do survive the the the [01:11:37.400] death of the body. You can be convinced [01:11:39.320] of that just through evidence. You don’t [01:11:40.720] have to know, but but there’s nothing [01:11:43.680] like having that experience of your own [01:11:46.320] and nobody can take that away from you, [01:11:48.160] you know. It and you can’t prove it to [01:11:50.120] anybody else. But it changes everything [01:11:53.560] for you. [01:11:54.080] >> So, go there. Go there. I I want to hear [01:11:56.560] your your understanding, right, about [01:11:59.800] death and what you’ve learned about [01:12:02.160] death by investigating this subject for [01:12:04.160] so long. [01:12:05.680] I I find it really hard to [01:12:08.800] believe that [01:12:10.840] that we’re just the body and then with [01:12:13.000] the body dies that the lights go out and [01:12:14.840] that’s it forever. I mean, I just, you [01:12:16.720] know, I can’t say I can prove anything. [01:12:19.000] Right. But, there is so much evidence [01:12:21.880] pointing to the [01:12:23.800] you know, these these deceased beings [01:12:27.560] who are able to bring through [01:12:28.680] information through mediums, that’s one [01:12:31.680] way that is only is not known to the [01:12:35.440] medium. I mean, there’s so many [01:12:36.720] incredible cases of communication from [01:12:39.040] deceased beings that are so evidential [01:12:43.280] that it’s very hard to just explain them [01:12:46.880] away as you’d have to the only way you [01:12:49.800] can explain them away are that somehow [01:12:51.240] the psychic ability of the medium is [01:12:52.920] bringing that in and it’s not the actual [01:12:54.480] deceased person. And sometimes you get [01:12:56.880] she gets evidence that, you know, even [01:12:59.200] the sitter [01:13:00.880] all this complexity around the person [01:13:02.640] sitting with the medium who’s contacting [01:13:04.560] the deceased person. Some people like to [01:13:06.600] say, “Well, the medium is reading the [01:13:08.080] mind of that sitter. It’s not really [01:13:09.920] that there’s a dead person [01:13:11.040] communicating, that all the information [01:13:12.680] is coming through the ESP that the [01:13:15.960] medium is picking up from the sitter.” [01:13:18.560] But, lots of times it’ll be information [01:13:20.200] that the sitter doesn’t even know, you [01:13:22.560] know, and they can’t find out until they [01:13:24.440] take their notes and they go ask their [01:13:26.240] grandfather about what some obscure [01:13:28.360] thing that that was told to them, you [01:13:29.840] know. I mean, it we could talk about [01:13:31.480] this for hours, but there is so much [01:13:33.360] there’s so many incredible cases like [01:13:35.080] the case of Mrs. Piper who I write about [01:13:37.440] in my book. Other other cases where [01:13:40.280] entities will come through and and talk [01:13:42.200] for 2 hours with unbelievable detail [01:13:45.520] about, you know, to somebody who knew [01:13:47.560] them when they were alive. And it’s [01:13:49.320] completely verifiable that that’s the [01:13:51.360] person. So, you know, I don’t know. When [01:13:53.800] you add all that up and you see it [01:13:55.560] happening over and over again and you [01:13:57.200] combine that with other types of [01:13:59.040] evidence of of things like dropping [01:14:01.520] communicators, again I can throw these [01:14:03.240] things out and I hope people might be [01:14:04.880] curious to look them up cuz we don’t [01:14:06.240] have time to talk about them all, but [01:14:08.040] there’s just so many elements that are [01:14:09.680] so evidential that I tried to find in my [01:14:12.080] book the ones that really defy [01:14:13.680] explanation. You just I don’t see how [01:14:15.880] you can argue that there’s some other [01:14:18.040] way to explain it. So, what do you think [01:14:20.120] it means? I mean, like I I’m not and I’m [01:14:22.720] asking a little bit about your [01:14:24.800] experience. [01:14:26.520] Um however [01:14:28.520] what do you notice [01:14:30.680] people who’ve experienced these [01:14:32.200] experiences? [01:14:33.760] What do you notice changes with their [01:14:35.360] meaning systems? I think first of all, [01:14:39.000] there’s there’s not much less if any [01:14:41.840] fear of death, you know, for people [01:14:43.920] who’ve had near-death experiences is one [01:14:45.560] aspect. And where people have [01:14:46.560] communicated with loved ones through [01:14:48.200] mediums, their belief system changes in [01:14:50.720] that they recognize that life goes on [01:14:52.680] after the after the death of the body. [01:14:54.360] So, that’s radical. If you really [01:14:56.080] believe that and you feel like you’ve [01:14:57.360] been shown that, you’re not going to be [01:14:59.400] afraid of death in the same way. You’re [01:15:02.040] going to they often feel a more expanded [01:15:04.840] kind of connection to the bigger [01:15:06.600] universe. They feel more connected to [01:15:09.480] their to other people as well. You know, [01:15:12.200] kind of an open-hearted connection to [01:15:14.960] people that they didn’t know before and [01:15:16.360] a lot of them will change their [01:15:17.520] professions and want to do service [01:15:19.560] service work to help the world. That [01:15:22.840] happens a lot to people who become who [01:15:25.360] really, you know, get affected by these [01:15:27.120] kinds of things. Yeah, they wanted they [01:15:28.600] want to make a contribution in whatever [01:15:30.400] way they they might do it and they [01:15:31.760] change their profession. They become [01:15:33.920] more loving people. And I guess as you [01:15:36.560] be because it’s all part of spiritual [01:15:38.200] development. And as you become [01:15:39.720] spiritually developed, you’re going to [01:15:41.080] become more more and a more aware, you [01:15:43.920] know, heartfelt, connected person and I [01:15:46.880] think that’s what happens to people. Um [01:15:49.520] But, one of the first things that people [01:15:51.280] all the NDE people will talk about is [01:15:53.640] that they’re not afraid of death [01:15:54.920] anymore. They absolutely know for a fact [01:15:57.600] that it’s not the end and they know that [01:16:00.440] from their own experience. So, they [01:16:01.720] can’t prove it to anybody else, but [01:16:03.360] that’s a big part of it. [01:16:05.560] And so, I would say I I don’t I don’t [01:16:08.200] feel afraid of death. I think it’s [01:16:09.680] probably going to be great to be over on [01:16:11.120] the other side. What I’m maybe afraid of [01:16:14.000] is the process of dying, that part. But [01:16:17.320] the actual crossing over and being in [01:16:19.280] this other I believe that, you know, we [01:16:20.840] will be we all of us will be in another [01:16:22.760] dimension and and we’ll be fine once we [01:16:25.840] cross over, but um yeah, so that’s one [01:16:29.520] great benefit of all of this. It takes [01:16:31.240] away that kind of fear and I just think [01:16:33.800] it makes you a a more expanded you [01:16:36.800] become a more expanded and more aware [01:16:38.400] person. I don’t know if that answers [01:16:40.040] your question because all these [01:16:41.200] questions are really hard to answer. I [01:16:43.160] don’t think I can answer any of them, [01:16:44.600] John. I’m just doing the best [01:16:46.360] I can. But, that’s what that’s what [01:16:48.400] we’re I think that’s what’s so fun about [01:16:50.080] all this is that it’s [01:16:52.560] I I mean, that that is the great I was [01:16:55.200] writing about this in the article, like [01:16:56.760] the great cosmic joke is that we long to [01:16:59.120] understand, but we can’t understand. And [01:17:01.480] that to me is as funny as it gets. [01:17:05.120] You know, that that if if our if if our [01:17:07.920] response is not [01:17:09.960] gut-busting [01:17:11.840] laughter, then then I don’t think we’re [01:17:14.280] paying attention to to this cosmic joke, [01:17:18.800] you know, and I don’t mean that [01:17:19.920] condescendingly or and I certainly don’t [01:17:21.680] mean that to dismiss any suffering that [01:17:23.400] people experience, but just the fact [01:17:25.480] that we’re constantly learning like [01:17:27.240] seeking and looking and observing and [01:17:29.040] theorizing and, you know, concluding and [01:17:32.400] and we can’t know whatever it is and yet [01:17:36.160] that doesn’t stop us. [01:17:38.413] >> [laughter] [01:17:38.520] >> Yeah, I mean, I think it’s that longing [01:17:40.320] that drives our lives and that gives [01:17:42.840] them meaning. But, I also think I would [01:17:45.320] have to say I think we can know to some [01:17:47.160] extent. I mean, you know, a different [01:17:49.200] you know, in stages you might know to [01:17:51.720] some extent something through an [01:17:54.120] experience that isn’t going to last [01:17:55.760] forever, but you might have an [01:17:56.880] experience in which in that moment you [01:17:59.840] experience something that you feel is [01:18:01.640] knowing something that’s ineffable or [01:18:04.080] that takes you somewhere, you know, into [01:18:05.600] a bigger reality, but then you come back [01:18:07.760] to your life. So, I don’t know if I [01:18:09.440] would say we can never know, but we can [01:18:11.560] never know in a way that’s provable or [01:18:13.840] even [01:18:14.439] >> [laughter] [01:18:14.480] >> anything we can express or share, right? [01:18:17.440] It’s just a experiential moment that we [01:18:20.080] can have in communion with something [01:18:23.040] beyond ourselves. It’s more like and um [01:18:27.000] what is that? It’s just wonderful, but [01:18:30.280] yeah, in some ways you can never know [01:18:31.960] really what it is. So, you know, it’s [01:18:33.480] this whole this whole dance, but the [01:18:35.880] search for that I think is what gives it [01:18:37.800] what’s what gives my life meaning. And [01:18:39.640] to to try to connect with it more and [01:18:41.240] more and more as I as I evolve, you [01:18:43.480] know, [01:18:44.800] and find different ways of connecting [01:18:46.280] with that reality and being in that [01:18:47.960] space and and learning through it and uh [01:18:51.320] trying to understand as best you can, [01:18:53.719] but ultimately, yeah, how can we [01:18:55.760] possibly understand the ultimate [01:18:58.120] reality? [01:18:59.440] >> Yes, yeah. [01:19:00.040] >> You know what I mean? And that’s that’s [01:19:01.920] I think why spiritual practice [01:19:04.800] of not knowing and humility those are [01:19:08.000] parts of the traditions that I really [01:19:09.880] respect. [01:19:11.480] You know, those that make declarative [01:19:13.440] conclusions about what reality is [01:19:15.440] concern me. [01:19:16.800] And and so and because I have an ego [01:19:20.440] that is going to seek to conceptualize [01:19:23.320] and grasp and hold something. I need to [01:19:27.040] be really careful about that part of me [01:19:29.840] so that I’m not gap filling and just [01:19:32.680] disbelieving with certain As what [01:19:34.120] Richard Rohr says that I love so much [01:19:35.600] that the opposite of faith isn’t doubt, [01:19:37.600] it’s certainty. And I think that’s such [01:19:39.760] a powerful reality that we’re we need to [01:19:42.320] be mindful of [01:19:43.960] our tendency to be fundamentalists. [01:19:47.040] And that we’re [01:19:48.000] >> really important. [01:19:49.040] >> When we’re not, we suffer the burden of [01:19:50.960] being a fundamentalist, actually. Yeah, [01:19:53.080] and I think that’s the pitfall of of [01:19:54.800] many traditions and being you know, [01:19:56.640] being really I mean it’s everybody has [01:19:58.520] to make their own choice about their own [01:20:00.160] spiritual development and then what [01:20:01.400] their path is and all of that, but you [01:20:02.960] know, a lot of the traditions are so [01:20:04.600] rigid in their Yes. [01:20:06.080] >> belief systems and and what they [01:20:08.640] consider to be real and okay and not [01:20:10.440] okay and all of that. You know, that can [01:20:12.320] be a trap. Yes, I it is a trap. Yes. [01:20:15.600] >> So, it’s sort of like what you’re [01:20:16.760] talking about with you know, wanting to [01:20:18.880] have something to hold onto and thinking [01:20:20.280] this is the only way, my way is the only [01:20:22.280] way and anything outside of that is is [01:20:24.800] blasphemy or something. [01:20:26.720] I mean you know, all this stuff that [01:20:27.880] goes on with these religions. So, I I [01:20:30.200] think that what I’m trying to get to in [01:20:31.800] Surviving Death is whatever underlies [01:20:34.280] all of that. It’s the essential human [01:20:37.200] quest, you know, that that all religions [01:20:39.920] embody. That all I mean all religions [01:20:42.240] deal with the question of the survival [01:20:43.880] of death. They all believe it. They all [01:20:46.000] believe that we survive death. And so, [01:20:47.960] but rather than coming to that through [01:20:49.400] religion you can also come to that [01:20:51.360] conclusion through evidence. Inquiry, [01:20:53.560] sure. And it doesn’t have to involve any [01:20:55.280] religious tradition at all. And so, [01:20:56.800] that’s what I’m offering in my book. You [01:20:58.280] know, there’s lots of evidence for it. [01:21:00.480] And it’s one of the first I mean I want [01:21:02.120] to one of the first things I I was [01:21:04.040] underlining if I can find it quickly in [01:21:05.920] your book is is just that. I was so [01:21:08.240] relieved and excited. [laughter] You [01:21:10.360] know, you you had this line very early [01:21:12.440] on that is like this is not theology, [01:21:14.240] right? Like this is I can’t I’ll [01:21:17.040] Um [01:21:17.440] >> Yeah, I mean I wrote that in the [01:21:18.320] introduction I think of this is this [01:21:19.920] book has nothing to do with religion. [01:21:21.400] And then there’s no mention of religion [01:21:23.120] anywhere in the whole book. But it’s not [01:21:24.840] necessary because all religions are [01:21:26.760] seeking and pointing towards the same [01:21:28.840] essential element. [01:21:30.400] >> Yeah. They just have their own [01:21:31.480] particular route of getting there and [01:21:33.040] you don’t want that to be That’s not [01:21:34.600] what’s important. [01:21:35.600] >> Yeah, a lot of a lot of different [01:21:36.680] fingers pointing to the moon. Don’t [01:21:38.280] don’t believe that any finger any one [01:21:40.080] finger is better than the other. Mine [01:21:41.960] points better than yours. [01:21:42.840] >> I guess maybe evidence is another [01:21:44.720] finger. I don’t know, but at least it’s [01:21:46.400] one that anybody can come to through any [01:21:49.000] tradition. And whether you’re an [01:21:51.080] intellectual person or you’re a [01:21:52.440] religious person, it all you can come to [01:21:54.880] that. I mean I’m assuming that and I you [01:21:57.160] know, that the people read it somebody [01:21:58.880] from any religious tradition can read [01:22:00.840] Surviving Death or look at the evidence [01:22:02.520] and just through my book. [01:22:03.720] >> agree. [01:22:03.880] >> And look at the evidence and relate to [01:22:05.480] it and accept it and be happy about it [01:22:07.720] because it’s confirming what they [01:22:09.800] believe in their own tradition, which is [01:22:11.800] that we survive death. And even you [01:22:13.880] know, it might it might be certain [01:22:15.440] things that they feel contradict their [01:22:17.280] particular belief system, but the [01:22:18.640] essence of it should be meaningful to [01:22:20.920] anybody in any religious tradition as [01:22:22.960] far as I see it. I This is so rich. I [01:22:26.720] I I want to be mindful of time because [01:22:28.240] you are so generous with with devoting [01:22:30.760] your time to this. And [01:22:32.520] And so, I want to start closing up for [01:22:34.640] us and really making sure we’ve tended [01:22:36.200] to everything we can. You referenced it [01:22:37.440] a couple of times where we could talk [01:22:38.640] for hours and hours and hours and I know [01:22:40.480] we could. And you’ve in fact written [01:22:42.400] about it and made a career out of it. [01:22:43.760] So, I I totally grasp [laughter] that. [01:22:45.920] But like but but as you reflect on our [01:22:47.520] conversation, what little threads maybe [01:22:50.440] um are still lingering that need to be [01:22:51.920] said as we start to conclude? Well, [01:22:54.320] that’s I don’t know. I mean I think I [01:22:56.920] mean one of the questions that’s sort of [01:22:58.560] out there [01:22:59.880] and that people debate a lot is what is [01:23:01.560] the relationship between the UFO [01:23:03.480] phenomenon and question of survival of [01:23:07.080] bodily death. You know, are they related [01:23:09.360] in some way? Do they inhabit some [01:23:11.640] similar space out in in some inter [01:23:13.680] dimensional reality or something? I [01:23:16.360] mean, I don’t know how it all fits [01:23:18.160] together, but when I you know, and [01:23:19.800] there’s some very paranormal aspect as [01:23:22.280] we all know, a high strangeness and all [01:23:24.120] of that that goes with UFOs and the way [01:23:25.880] it impacts people. It can transform them [01:23:28.480] in the same way that near-death [01:23:30.120] experiences can. It can open up [01:23:32.720] abilities for them in terms of [01:23:35.040] perception that they didn’t have before. [01:23:36.920] Their consciousness can be changed just [01:23:38.480] from an interaction or sighting of a [01:23:40.560] UFO. So, you know, it’s an interesting [01:23:42.680] question is how does it all [01:23:44.400] interconnect? And I have no idea how it [01:23:46.720] does, but um when I wrote Surviving [01:23:49.480] Death, I wasn’t even thinking about [01:23:51.240] UFOs. I thought of them as completely [01:23:53.760] separate topics. [01:23:54.840] >> Mm. Like sort of the this this [01:23:56.800] investigation was completely separate [01:23:59.120] from UFOs. And that’s how I approached [01:24:02.000] when I wrote the book. And since then, [01:24:03.680] you know, I’ve come There’s been I’ve [01:24:05.480] come to see much more that there’s a [01:24:06.960] connection between UFOs and all the kind [01:24:10.280] of consciousness exploration that I did [01:24:12.880] in my book. Um and the whole experience [01:24:16.120] of near-death and afterlife you know, so [01:24:19.280] I don’t know. That’s just a thread that [01:24:21.480] is really interesting to contemplate and [01:24:23.120] there are people that think about it a [01:24:25.320] lot such as Whitley Strieber and others [01:24:27.280] who you know, find these connections in [01:24:29.840] their own experience and through their [01:24:31.520] own research and stuff. I don’t [01:24:33.680] understand what that connection is, but [01:24:36.000] I think it’s real and it’s there [01:24:37.680] somehow. And that’s sort of [01:24:39.680] Yeah, that’s something I just sort of [01:24:41.000] wanted to [01:24:42.000] toss out as a sort of an evolving [01:24:45.080] exploration that a lot of people are [01:24:46.680] making and probably will never be able [01:24:48.400] to answer. It’s another one of those [01:24:49.720] unanswerable questions, but how can you [01:24:51.680] you know, what are the connections [01:24:52.760] between those two? Well, that was [01:24:54.600] actually Jung’s one of Jung’s [01:24:56.400] contributions here is that when we are [01:24:59.120] in relationship to unanswerable [01:25:00.840] questions, we see the religious function [01:25:03.240] of the psyche emerge. And that’s that’s [01:25:05.560] part of the He Jung was talking about [01:25:08.400] like the UFOs as the kind of modern myth [01:25:11.600] makers that we [01:25:13.080] >> Mhm. we see the the storying and the [01:25:16.000] narrativizing and the ways in which this [01:25:18.600] organism tries to make sense of the un [01:25:21.840] un unsensible, you know, the the the the [01:25:25.840] And that And Jeff, I do want to tip the [01:25:27.600] hat a little bit to Jeff Kripal. Anybody [01:25:29.200] who watches this show knows how much I [01:25:30.680] adore and love his work and respect his [01:25:32.400] work. [01:25:32.600] >> And I do, too. And he he wrote The Flip. [01:25:34.840] And I think that if you go back into the [01:25:36.920] archives of this podcast, The Flip is an [01:25:39.600] important part of my own evolution just [01:25:42.040] looking at the ways that peoples’ [01:25:43.840] worldviews and particular scientific or [01:25:45.960] economic or political worldviews really [01:25:48.440] change as a result of having these kinds [01:25:50.680] of Exactly. [01:25:52.600] >> which is itself very radical as far as a [01:25:55.160] trend is concerned. You can transform [01:25:57.600] somebody who’s invested decades into a [01:25:59.840] particular orientation and it and that’s [01:26:02.080] you know, and it flips, which is right. [01:26:03.800] >> And it flips. It’s a complete flip and [01:26:05.320] that’s the ontological shock that we’ve [01:26:06.880] been talking about. That’s flip, it’s [01:26:09.440] the same thing. Yeah, that’s a great [01:26:12.200] book. So good, yeah. [01:26:13.640] >> book if people want to understand what [01:26:15.320] that flip what that ontological shock is [01:26:17.760] all about. That’s what that book is [01:26:19.200] basically. Just telling these different [01:26:21.280] stories that illustrate that. So. It is [01:26:23.800] Yeah, I could talk about Kripal all day. [01:26:25.880] Well, Leslie, look, is there anything [01:26:27.160] else as we’re as we’re closing up? Is [01:26:29.000] there anything else that you want to [01:26:30.040] say? [01:26:31.400] Gosh, I can’t I don’t know. Is there any [01:26:33.000] other question you want to put out [01:26:34.240] there, John? I mean, I don’t know. I [01:26:36.400] just [01:26:37.680] All I can say is I’m grateful that I’m [01:26:40.280] involved in with this at the level that [01:26:42.040] I am and it’s so meaningful. And you [01:26:44.800] know, I think [01:26:46.440] there’s nothing better than being [01:26:47.800] connected to something bigger than [01:26:50.080] yourself. And I don’t know how I would [01:26:51.520] survive if I didn’t feel that, quite [01:26:53.480] honestly. I think that’s what [01:26:56.200] is that spiritual connection that you [01:26:58.400] know, creates meaning out of life for me [01:27:01.200] personally. So, I think if I didn’t have [01:27:03.720] that, I don’t I just imagine life being [01:27:05.800] very difficult. And once you have that, [01:27:07.880] miracles start to happen. You know, they [01:27:10.120] just do. Things happen to you that [01:27:13.360] transform your life. And [01:27:15.760] so, any you know, [01:27:17.120] at least I mean I only speak for myself, [01:27:19.840] but I feel that that’s happened and I [01:27:21.240] know it’s happened to a lot of other [01:27:22.320] people. And it just changes how you [01:27:24.400] perceive reality, how you live your [01:27:26.000] life, how you interpret things that that [01:27:27.840] are happening to you. You feel more [01:27:29.120] compassion for people. You know, it’s [01:27:31.040] just it’s very transformative. So, I’m [01:27:32.760] just grateful that I’ve happened to have [01:27:34.920] this this particular life where I’m [01:27:36.480] focused in that way, you know, and I [01:27:39.120] would find it hard to be without it. [01:27:41.760] I And what I [01:27:42.920] >> yeah. What I think is I’m as I’m [01:27:45.480] listening is it I I It is really [01:27:48.640] important I think to [01:27:50.960] somebody with your [01:27:53.440] attention to [01:27:55.360] process with your initiation into a [01:27:58.760] vocation of journalism, with your [01:28:00.840] rigorous attentiveness to investigation [01:28:03.800] and the ethics around how to do that in [01:28:06.280] a way that is mindful and reverent and [01:28:09.320] attentive and thorough. For you to have [01:28:12.080] been investigating this for so long to [01:28:14.000] say something like “That’s very clear [01:28:15.960] that we [01:28:17.719] there is a beyond.” [01:28:19.440] You know, that there there’s a there’s [01:28:21.680] such a security that I feel in listening [01:28:24.160] to you be the person that can share that [01:28:27.520] because I I don’t get to talk to a lot [01:28:29.560] of people who’ve done the kind of [01:28:30.760] investigative work that you’ve done. And [01:28:33.000] so, I I there’s a real I I I’m not [01:28:36.480] saying that because you say it I believe [01:28:38.320] it’s true. I’m saying that because you [01:28:40.120] say it and you are who you are, there’s [01:28:42.120] a trust that is established. And I have [01:28:44.560] a confidence in the ways in which you’ve [01:28:47.080] you’ve done what you’ve done. And I just [01:28:49.480] I really appreciate the work that you [01:28:50.800] do, Leslie. I’m [01:28:52.000] >> Thank you, John. Thank you. Yeah. [01:28:54.040] >> I mean I think Yeah, I mean I think the [01:28:56.960] the personal journey can be undertaken [01:28:58.880] by anybody. You don’t have to do the [01:29:00.560] investigation of evidence and all of [01:29:02.280] that to be on a spiritual path and to [01:29:04.080] discover this bigger reality. But what’s [01:29:06.840] been great Yeah, I think what my unique [01:29:08.719] contribution is providing the sort of [01:29:10.880] journalistic evidence for that. Which is [01:29:14.000] you know, that’s [01:29:15.840] But the personal journey is something [01:29:17.520] that any person can undertake and many [01:29:19.560] people do, of course, and they evolve [01:29:22.400] much further with it than I have. But I [01:29:25.240] I love the combination of the [01:29:27.520] investigative part and the searching and [01:29:29.760] the documentation and all of that with [01:29:32.360] the actual experiential element of it. [01:29:34.600] That’s what I love and I love finding [01:29:37.240] ways to prove quotes [01:29:41.240] the reality of this other reality. [01:29:43.680] That’s what I love about for instance [01:29:45.720] the work with Stuart Alexander is that [01:29:48.040] you can’t argue with it, it’s [01:29:49.360] documented, you know? And I love to [01:29:52.280] bring that out so that the skeptics have [01:29:54.440] no choice but to deal with it. If you [01:29:57.520] have sort of proof of the impossible, [01:30:00.240] you know what I mean? Hardcore, you [01:30:01.960] know, data of the impossible that that [01:30:04.320] they just have to say something really [01:30:05.880] crazy to dismiss. I find a great joy in [01:30:09.160] being able to physically document this [01:30:11.200] other reality, let’s put it that way. [01:30:13.200] It’s something I’ve wanted I’ve been [01:30:14.480] wanting to do since I, you know, for [01:30:15.920] decades. It’s just sort of like that’s [01:30:17.400] what drives me is to somehow [01:30:19.680] get physical proof for the impossible, [01:30:23.320] for what people dismiss. And I love [01:30:26.000] doing that and so I think that’s one of [01:30:28.080] the reasons I love the physical [01:30:29.120] mediumship and other things um is that [01:30:31.200] they can [01:30:32.320] they provide that kind of evidential [01:30:34.520] element. Yeah. And you know, you can [01:30:37.520] change people’s perceptions through [01:30:39.440] that. It’s not yeah, and a lot of people [01:30:41.920] that’s the only way you’re going to [01:30:43.120] going to reach them. The other thing is [01:30:45.200] what I what I feel really gratifying too [01:30:47.080] about this work, John, is that and this [01:30:49.360] happened after especially after the [01:30:51.000] Netflix series came out which was based [01:30:53.640] on my book but very loosely based on my [01:30:55.400] book, I have to say, and I didn’t have a [01:30:57.240] lot of control over how they did it, but [01:30:59.240] I think there are some good good things [01:31:00.480] about that series, but it gave people [01:31:02.960] permission to talk about this and feel [01:31:05.880] like it was okay. I mean, that’s so [01:31:07.720] meaningful to me to to if I can [01:31:09.880] facilitate even one person [01:31:13.040] feeling like they can finally share [01:31:15.040] something that happened to them [01:31:16.920] that they had felt they couldn’t share [01:31:18.280] before because it was not okay or was [01:31:20.840] going to be ridiculed or laughed at. And [01:31:22.800] then when they read this book or they [01:31:24.000] see that series, they feel, “Oh, so many [01:31:27.440] other people have had the same thing and [01:31:28.960] now yeah, look, it’s been documented. [01:31:30.920] Now I can finally talk about it.” And I [01:31:33.320] can’t tell you how many messages I got [01:31:35.600] on Facebook and emails and all these [01:31:37.800] people contacting me [01:31:39.800] saying that finally I can talk about it [01:31:43.080] thanks to what you’ve been able to put [01:31:44.640] out there, you know? And it provides a [01:31:46.520] safety net for people. And that’s just [01:31:49.160] so gratifying to me. If that even does [01:31:51.640] that for five people, it’s worth it to [01:31:53.720] me to have spent years doing this work, [01:31:55.480] you know? I want people to feel safe and [01:31:58.200] be able to talk about it and realize [01:32:00.120] that I mean, they’re talking about the [01:32:01.680] truth. Like we were to go back to where [01:32:04.080] we were in the beginning about what is [01:32:05.480] alternate reality, right? [01:32:07.560] They’re pointing towards the real [01:32:09.160] reality in what they have to share. And [01:32:12.000] this disbelieving, you know, physicality [01:32:14.680] that the materialists live in is not the [01:32:16.600] real reality. And that’s what people are [01:32:18.920] up against and they’ve been [01:32:20.720] controlled by that in their orientation [01:32:23.520] towards reality. So [01:32:25.240] yeah, so I just love being able to open [01:32:26.800] a door for people to be able to talk [01:32:28.440] about and feel comfortable and safe in [01:32:30.640] talking about what’s happened to them [01:32:32.240] and I would encourage anybody, everybody [01:32:35.120] the more you can do that, the more you [01:32:36.760] open up doors for other people to do as [01:32:38.600] well, you know? [01:32:40.240] So that that’s also one of the really [01:32:41.600] satisfying things for me about doing [01:32:43.200] this work. Once they see that there’s [01:32:45.360] data, I don’t know, there’s a comfort [01:32:47.040] that comes Mhm. to people from that, you [01:32:49.360] know? [01:32:50.280] Once they see that and they see that [01:32:52.400] certain things can be proven and have [01:32:53.840] been studied by scientists and that [01:32:55.400] there’s other people that have had the [01:32:56.360] exact same kinds of experiences and here [01:32:58.320] they are in this book, you know? It [01:33:00.160] changes people’s yeah, abilities to feel [01:33:03.080] comfortable coming forward, so anyway, I [01:33:05.080] love that. I love that about it. Yeah. [01:33:07.360] >> Well, thanks for doing this work. It I I [01:33:09.440] have had a a [01:33:11.040] I’ve been so excited about talking to [01:33:12.640] you and and reading the material. [01:33:15.080] >> I hope we met your expectations in this [01:33:16.760] conversation. I always feel inadequate [01:33:18.840] cuz I just so hard to describe these [01:33:20.960] things and talk about them. I I I I I I [01:33:23.040] I I I [01:33:23.320] >> why I like to write it down, you know? [01:33:24.600] You get to you get to figure out like [01:33:26.440] exactly how you want to say it and you [01:33:28.560] get to stew over it and edit it and you [01:33:30.920] get just the right words, you know? [01:33:33.240] And and for the things that are really [01:33:34.760] hard to describe, I like to do it that [01:33:37.080] way. So sometimes it’s just it’s hard [01:33:38.760] for me, so I really hope that [01:33:40.600] uh what you were looking for here. [01:33:42.440] Well, I work in the [01:33:44.240] I’m very interested in the kinds of [01:33:47.280] experiences that are not subjected to [01:33:49.760] description. And and that’s that’s as a [01:33:52.240] psychotherapist, I’m consistently [01:33:54.440] connecting with people [01:33:56.280] in the ways that they [01:33:58.440] have tried to make sense of their lives [01:34:00.960] and then have that sense-making [01:34:02.760] mechanism disrupted in some way and then [01:34:05.160] they have to something new has to [01:34:07.280] emerge. And and that I think it’s [01:34:10.320] growth, I think it’s evolution. I I [01:34:12.400] think it is [01:34:13.960] I think we are woefully ill-equipped [01:34:17.160] right now to begin to understand what [01:34:21.360] reality is. And I I do really love your [01:34:24.280] framing of it what what we’re pointing [01:34:27.040] toward is something more real than [01:34:30.000] this real. [01:34:31.440] Well, you said the same thing in your in [01:34:33.200] your essay. So basically you’re asking [01:34:35.640] the question, but I think you were [01:34:37.360] pointing towards an answer. [01:34:38.680] >> Yeah, and I and I I love I love that and [01:34:40.760] I I I love the kind of shift that [01:34:42.680] happens when you say, “Well, let’s just [01:34:44.400] pre let’s just imagine that that there’s [01:34:47.000] something beyond this.” [01:34:48.840] And you’re right, that’s what spiritual [01:34:50.200] and religious traditions have done. And [01:34:52.040] I just think I think part of my critique [01:34:53.800] is like I was saying earlier is that we [01:34:55.360] we need to be really careful of the part [01:34:57.320] of our of our psyche that tends to make [01:34:59.880] things concrete. And and we’ve we’ve [01:35:02.240] lost a we’ve lost a spiritual training [01:35:05.840] that we’ve lost a contemplative [01:35:07.960] tradition that helps us understand how [01:35:10.120] to [01:35:10.960] how that part of us doesn’t need to win [01:35:13.680] the day. [01:35:14.840] Yeah, that’s such an important message [01:35:16.640] and I’m so happy that you’re presenting [01:35:18.920] that message and that you’re working [01:35:20.360] with people and giving them that kind of [01:35:22.640] orientation and helping them find that [01:35:24.280] orientation. Yeah. I bet there are a lot [01:35:26.720] of therapists out there that are not [01:35:28.360] doing that. Yeah. So I really appreciate [01:35:31.480] that you’re doing that, John. It’s so [01:35:32.800] important. So important. [01:35:34.760] >> Well, well, I I look forward to more [01:35:36.200] conversations with you [01:35:38.120] Leslie. I I I I [01:35:40.280] I have thoroughly enjoyed the work that [01:35:42.520] you’re doing and Thank you very much. I [01:35:45.280] champion what you’re doing. Thanks. [01:35:47.400] Yeah, [01:35:48.480] thanks. Yeah, well, there are a lot of [01:35:50.080] people out there doing the same or very [01:35:52.160] similar work and it all it’s a big net [01:35:54.360] and it all holds together and it’s all [01:35:56.200] so important, so I’m grateful to you for [01:35:58.600] what you’re doing as well. You too. And [01:36:00.920] um we’ll have to talk again sometime. [01:36:02.720] It’s been really great conversation. It [01:36:04.640] went by really fast. I’m in. [01:36:06.760] >> it was it was interesting. [01:36:08.651] >> [laughter] [01:36:08.840] >> Thank you. Thank you very much [01:36:10.800] for having me on, John. Yeah, [01:36:13.000] you too. [01:36:15.680] Persuades [music] [01:36:17.720] your [01:36:18.600] thoughts. [01:36:23.240] Governs [01:36:25.026] [music] your need. [01:36:28.480] Governs your need. [01:36:36.040] Governs your need.

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