nolan-sol-foundation-materials-tests-2026-03-05

Garry Nolan — “New UAP Materials Tests: What the Results Reveal” (Sol Foundation), Mar 5, 2026

• YouTube: https://youtu.be/Mifx4nzPY68
• Extraction: youtube_transcript.py (timestamps), 2026-05-28
• Significance: Nolan presenting his actual UAP-materials analysis results. Primary for nolan-research-and-claims (anchors the MIBI/isotopic materials claim).

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[00:00:08.960] The Sol Foundation exists to seriously [00:00:11.520] address one of humanity’s biggest [00:00:13.280] questions. Unidentified anomalous [00:00:16.000] phenomena. [00:00:17.480] The Sol Forum is a digital platform that [00:00:19.960] extends the critical discussions and [00:00:21.800] research presented at our annual [00:00:23.680] symposium. [00:00:33.405] >> [music] [00:00:38.520] >> Welcome to the Sol Forum with our host, [00:00:40.920] Dr. Peter Skafish, cultural [00:00:42.960] anthropologist and co-founder of the Sol [00:00:45.280] Foundation. [00:00:47.160] Dr. Garry Nolan is the Ratchford and [00:00:49.240] Carlota A. Harris Professor of Pathology [00:00:51.400] at Stanford University and Executive [00:00:53.560] Director of the Board of the Sol [00:00:55.160] Foundation. He is internationally [00:00:57.200] recognized for pioneering biomedical [00:00:59.200] technologies such as CyTOF, CODEX, and [00:01:02.000] MIMI. Has authored over 350 research [00:01:04.720] articles and founded multiple [00:01:06.560] biotechnology companies advancing [00:01:09.320] science and public health. [00:01:12.000] Hello and welcome to the Sol Forum. [00:01:14.760] Uh we have today a guest I’m very [00:01:17.520] excited to have, a um [00:01:19.720] colleague, uh friend to my co-founder at [00:01:22.000] the Sol Foundation, Dr. Garry Nolan. [00:01:24.480] Um who really needs no introduction when [00:01:26.400] it comes to the UAP subject. So, [00:01:28.520] welcome, Garry. Thanks so much. [00:01:30.440] Actually, it’ll be fun to actually be on [00:01:31.880] this. I haven’t uh [00:01:33.600] participated really yet except [00:01:35.040] >> Yeah, yeah, we haven’t done this yet. [00:01:36.960] And uh we are going to cover a lot of [00:01:39.760] ground today, but I wanted to jump into [00:01:42.520] uh what’s going on at the time of the [00:01:43.640] recording, which is that we are [00:01:46.400] just at the heels of Trump’s [00:01:48.000] announcement that he’s going to do did [00:01:50.080] declassify uh through the Department of [00:01:52.200] Defense uh not only UAP records, but [00:01:55.160] apparently records that concern, as he [00:01:57.120] put it extraterrestrial and and alien [00:01:59.600] life. [00:02:00.840] And so, you know, everyone’s talking [00:02:03.400] about this. Uh people are talking about [00:02:05.280] too much. Uh expectations are high. Uh [00:02:08.880] you know, I think we should talk about [00:02:10.399] it and and what’s on your mind about it? [00:02:13.040] Well, I think, you know, I mean [00:02:14.920] I I I think the hope is that he [00:02:16.720] declassifies. [00:02:18.280] I I think the wording wasn’t the wording [00:02:21.640] just that begin the process of release. [00:02:25.320] Which is different than declassify. [00:02:29.200] I know you know that. Um but it’s um [00:02:32.560] because there’s a lot of leeway room in [00:02:34.800] the word begin or the words begin to [00:02:37.480] begin the process etc. And it’s very [00:02:40.160] different than, let’s say, a law passed [00:02:43.320] or an executive order put forward or any [00:02:47.240] of a number another [00:02:48.959] um [00:02:49.640] a number [00:02:50.880] a number of other approaches that could [00:02:53.520] be taken [00:02:54.680] uh to bring the information out because [00:02:58.040] you know, begin the process really [00:02:59.959] implies well, that there is a process. [00:03:03.160] And that means that, you know, you can’t [00:03:05.480] just dump a whole bunch of information [00:03:08.080] out that there are [00:03:09.920] uh rules and there are probably things [00:03:12.239] that you don’t want released [00:03:14.239] uh or shouldn’t be released, you know, [00:03:15.640] that that’s etc. The things that the [00:03:17.720] Department of Defense always uses to say [00:03:19.760] why they can’t let information out, [00:03:21.000] which is real and it’s not, I don’t [00:03:22.160] think, an excuse. [00:03:23.840] Uh and so um [00:03:25.640] that that process, let’s say that there [00:03:28.440] is to be disclosure of some kind, [00:03:31.480] uh there needs to be across the [00:03:33.600] intelligence services and any other [00:03:35.600] agencies that have remit [00:03:37.800] um understanding of what it is that’s [00:03:39.680] being released and what the consequences [00:03:41.040] are of such release. [00:03:43.440] Yeah, and what do what do you think [00:03:44.519] those consequences are? I mean, there [00:03:46.400] are there there consequences across [00:03:48.360] different institutions uh within the [00:03:50.320] government and then there are broader [00:03:52.000] social scientific, etc. uh consequences. [00:03:55.840] Well, I you know, there’s everything as [00:03:57.280] we know from religious, I mean the Rand [00:03:58.920] Corporation has done [00:04:00.760] you know, prior analyses of of this and [00:04:03.840] and other [00:04:05.160] groups. You know, I think the the [00:04:07.280] biggest one today is [00:04:09.440] well, first of all, are we alone? And [00:04:12.720] and that would be just the admittance of [00:04:15.160] that, the open admittance of that [00:04:17.920] is frankly [00:04:19.840] going to be enough to change how we view [00:04:22.520] ourselves [00:04:23.720] in the context of the of the universe. [00:04:26.520] And getting the government to say that [00:04:28.520] such is the case [00:04:30.360] absent even providing evidence, let’s [00:04:32.960] say for it would be a game-changer. [00:04:37.480] Now, you know, we heard [00:04:40.960] former President Obama say as much [00:04:43.720] and then he pulled it back a few days [00:04:45.360] later. [00:04:46.480] The why of it I I don’t quite understand [00:04:50.080] he would have said it in the first place [00:04:51.240] knowing the consequence of what it was [00:04:53.360] that he was saying. [00:04:55.160] Whether that triggered [00:04:57.640] President Trump’s statement to do see at [00:05:01.840] the time. I think it was on the plane. [00:05:03.320] Was it on on one of the planes? [00:05:05.320] That there was that that was breaking [00:05:08.960] classification. That was almost kind of [00:05:10.800] a tell, a weird tell [00:05:14.360] and people took it as such. [00:05:16.160] But then he went, you know, he said, [00:05:18.560] well, I’ll I’ll I’ll maybe help [00:05:20.160] President Obama in this and maybe I’ll [00:05:23.280] maybe I’ll declassify things. [00:05:25.800] But then the [00:05:27.960] truth social that he made was was not a [00:05:30.480] declassification per se, but I but I [00:05:33.000] think it was [00:05:34.440] you know, I I think that probably [00:05:36.320] people, let’s say behind the scenes came [00:05:38.320] to him and said, well, look, this is a [00:05:39.560] process [00:05:40.720] President Trump. So maybe we should talk [00:05:43.520] about it as a process. [00:05:45.360] And then once the process has been [00:05:47.360] formalized, uh, then there might be ways [00:05:50.440] to declassify things such as you said on [00:05:52.960] the on the plane. And that would be how [00:05:54.760] I would I would start with it because, [00:05:58.160] you know, there’s everything from [00:05:59.280] economic to religious to social, uh, [00:06:02.120] reasons, but [00:06:03.600] as I’ve often said when asked about what [00:06:05.920] would be the consequences of disclosure [00:06:08.200] for the common folk, is they might turn [00:06:10.320] their head for a day or two, [00:06:12.400] uh, [00:06:13.520] but then they are going to go back to [00:06:14.800] looking at, um, kitchen table [00:06:18.240] uh, and, uh, what’s going to put bread, [00:06:20.720] uh, on their table or keep their [00:06:22.240] families, uh, safe, uh, just in economic [00:06:26.200] terms, not in, [00:06:27.840] you know, existential terms. [00:06:30.200] Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a great [00:06:31.760] point. I I think, you know, something we [00:06:33.840] should we should, uh, you know, make [00:06:35.640] sure people understand because it [00:06:37.880] underscores the point you just made, [00:06:39.960] which is that people will listen to this [00:06:42.280] and maybe shrug their shoulders and go [00:06:44.200] back to everyday life. [00:06:46.400] Is that I think a lot of people don’t [00:06:48.160] understand that that two presidents just [00:06:51.680] played out for the entire world to see [00:06:54.560] something that I think you and I both [00:06:56.360] know for a fact to be true, which is [00:06:58.600] that the the there are components of [00:07:00.960] federal government that know very well [00:07:02.520] about this. [00:07:03.919] And that, you know, to some extent the [00:07:06.160] efforts and programs to deal with it are [00:07:08.120] are are under presidential authority and [00:07:11.200] presidents do get briefed to some [00:07:12.919] extent. And [00:07:15.000] and Trump’s statement, that’s classified [00:07:17.800] information. Uh, [00:07:19.600] he wasn’t supposed to share that, uh, [00:07:21.320] pretty much exposed the matter. And yet, [00:07:24.640] despite some reporting, we haven’t seen [00:07:27.160] serious journalists or many media people [00:07:30.000] really pursue the meaning of that. [00:07:32.000] Right. And [00:07:33.919] I I guess that’s because at one level, [00:07:36.560] uh, it’s really, unfortunately, not that [00:07:38.840] much different than what’s gone before, [00:07:42.200] uh, so far. [00:07:43.520] But, I do though think that it puts a [00:07:45.800] little bit of pressure or at least it [00:07:47.560] gives [00:07:48.720] uh, people a um, [00:07:52.400] uh, [00:07:53.240] I don’t don’t like to use the word [00:07:54.320] hammer, [00:07:55.600] uh, but a a reason to push others within [00:07:58.680] the government to say, “Hey, look, uh, [00:08:01.200] the president said this. Uh, I think you [00:08:03.640] should, you know, next time we come up [00:08:05.560] for a vote, [00:08:07.040] you should do something.” [00:08:08.680] Um, or it might, you know, uh, [00:08:11.560] let’s say unwittingly [00:08:13.520] cause, uh, [00:08:15.120] not necessarily a whistleblower, but [00:08:17.440] somebody else, [00:08:19.000] uh, at some level of government to [00:08:20.720] interpret what was just said as a reason [00:08:23.160] to release information. [00:08:25.000] Um, say, “Okay, well, look, the [00:08:26.520] president said we have to begin the [00:08:27.800] process. I’m just part of a process, you [00:08:30.320] know. I think I’ve been given [00:08:31.840] permission.” [00:08:33.880] And so, you know, that it there there [00:08:36.200] might be an unexpected I I doubt that [00:08:38.400] there very much that will happen. I [00:08:39.680] think people are are [00:08:41.400] you know, savvier than that. But, I I do [00:08:43.919] think though that it opens [00:08:46.000] up an opportunity for us to say, “Okay, [00:08:48.880] well, from the highest level of [00:08:50.720] government, uh, there is at least the [00:08:54.080] permission to start.” [00:08:56.160] Uh, and frankly, I think that that’s [00:08:58.640] really all the sole foundation you or I [00:09:00.800] or others have launched it is to say [00:09:03.200] that there’s a reason to look into the [00:09:04.960] data, uh, cuz the data, uh, [00:09:08.200] seems to suggest uh, that there’s [00:09:10.960] something there. [00:09:12.160] Uh, or at least there continues to be a [00:09:14.880] reason to ask questions. [00:09:17.280] And so, uh, this certainly for the [00:09:20.920] debunkers out there who want to say that [00:09:23.560] it’s it’s a nothing burger, well, it [00:09:25.680] couldn’t that couldn’t be further from [00:09:26.720] the truth. [00:09:27.839] Uh, [00:09:28.520] it really is, um, [00:09:31.120] you know, I I think it’s it’s fuel to [00:09:33.120] continue. At least it gives me fuel to [00:09:35.400] continue. [00:09:36.920] Yeah, so let’s let’s turn to your views [00:09:39.520] about this as a scientist. And and I [00:09:42.680] think, you know, because we have an [00:09:44.440] audience here that that doesn’t always [00:09:47.520] delve deeply into to the UAP subject. [00:09:51.360] I think it’s important to have a [00:09:53.400] conversation with you here about what [00:09:55.840] this means to you as a scientist because [00:09:57.560] that’s where your real fire is and your [00:09:59.400] real passion is even when you’re [00:10:00.960] involved in the attempt to create reform [00:10:02.800] on this in government. [00:10:04.440] Uh you know, and you’ve been thinking [00:10:06.240] about this in one way, shape, or form [00:10:09.440] your entire life, I think, or or mostly [00:10:11.760] since I think childhood. Um [00:10:14.600] so I know you have pretty considered [00:10:16.280] views about it. [00:10:17.760] What’s your current perspective on [00:10:20.760] the different hypotheses and and that [00:10:23.880] the data favors and how you think people [00:10:26.920] should explore them? [00:10:29.000] So, I mean, for [00:10:30.840] for me, I mean, let’s I I can go back to [00:10:32.600] let’s say at least 2008 [00:10:35.280] where I started, let’s say, re-exploring [00:10:38.520] some issues that I had dealt with as a [00:10:41.720] as a young boy, things that I’d seen and [00:10:44.160] often wondered about. [00:10:45.880] Uh and you know, it started really [00:10:49.280] around 2008, 2009 when I started [00:10:51.800] looking, let’s say, online [00:10:53.960] at [00:10:55.320] the events that other people were [00:10:58.000] observing. And I’m not going to go into [00:10:59.480] the whole history of that yet. [00:11:01.839] I started to realize that other people [00:11:03.960] were seeing and observing the same [00:11:05.520] things that I had or were thinking about [00:11:07.760] it at least in the same way. [00:11:09.600] That, okay, well, there seems to be [00:11:12.040] incidents that [00:11:14.480] were similar to the things that either I [00:11:16.320] had seen or even new things that I [00:11:18.600] hadn’t understood anything about, which [00:11:21.160] to me at least added up to an idea that [00:11:23.920] there was something else here. [00:11:26.680] Uh and [00:11:28.760] the first thing that at least I locked [00:11:31.320] in on as a a biologist, a geneticist, [00:11:36.200] etc. was the supposed similarity of [00:11:40.040] form, the humanoid form [00:11:42.040] that was being observed. [00:11:44.520] And [00:11:46.280] that to me didn’t play well against the [00:11:48.840] idea that these were extraterrestrial. [00:11:52.640] That they came from another planet and [00:11:54.880] yet looked like us in one manner or [00:11:58.880] another. [00:11:59.880] Because that just felt wrong to me. As a [00:12:02.520] geneticist, I could see no more reason [00:12:05.520] that they would have look like us than [00:12:07.480] they might look like a rutabaga. [00:12:10.240] You know, there’s just no particular [00:12:13.720] I think reason that makes this form [00:12:16.400] ideal [00:12:17.560] as the as the vessel for intelligence. [00:12:21.320] Um [00:12:22.520] and so, you know, I think one of the [00:12:24.160] first [00:12:25.800] things that I came to was, well, they [00:12:28.280] look enough look enough like us, [00:12:31.360] maybe they are and I’d always considered [00:12:33.720] at least two things. Maybe they were an [00:12:35.600] alternative branch [00:12:37.400] of humanity [00:12:38.880] that went on separately and earlier than [00:12:41.960] we did for whatever reason or let’s say [00:12:45.720] go back as far as the dinosaurs, that [00:12:47.839] something had evolved as far back as [00:12:50.320] then. [00:12:51.440] Um and had become, you know, [00:12:55.720] intelligent, maybe gone elsewhere in the [00:12:57.760] galaxy and decided to come back home and [00:13:00.160] see what had been happening, you know, [00:13:01.640] back on the old homestead. [00:13:03.320] Um [snorts] [00:13:04.480] or [00:13:05.640] you know, that they were future humans [00:13:07.160] and Mike McMasters, Professor Mike [00:13:09.160] McMasters has written about this [00:13:10.400] extensively as well, that they’d come [00:13:12.360] back. Um [00:13:14.560] and [00:13:16.000] and that they were coming back to check [00:13:17.720] on on their forebears [00:13:20.560] to sort of do an anthropologic study of [00:13:22.800] of who and what we were. [00:13:24.480] Um and so those were the three things [00:13:27.000] that I had [00:13:28.640] uh [00:13:29.720] had in my mind. [00:13:31.560] And for [00:13:33.640] whatever reason when I first came across [00:13:36.440] Jacques Vallee, in fact, he and I had [00:13:38.240] had [00:13:39.200] uh lunch at our first meeting at a place [00:13:41.360] called the Rosewood down the down the [00:13:44.720] way. At that point in time, [00:13:47.320] um [00:13:48.360] I had made the fatal mistake of becoming [00:13:51.880] convinced that it was future humans. [00:13:55.200] That was cuz it just added up to me. And [00:13:58.600] uh Jacques very quickly disabused me of [00:14:02.800] the re- many reasons why I was wrong. [00:14:05.640] And that was the first reason when the [00:14:07.600] first time I thought, “Ooh, I really [00:14:09.320] like this guy.” [00:14:10.720] Cuz he showed me why I was wrong. [00:14:14.640] Uh and showed me a wider view of the [00:14:18.040] world of of what it might be. And [00:14:21.480] uh since I had not at that point read [00:14:23.640] any of his works, [00:14:25.840] um [00:14:27.200] uh he, you know, he explained it in in [00:14:29.640] brief, but you know, the the the way [00:14:33.000] that he explained, or at least I came to [00:14:35.120] know later without going into the that [00:14:37.280] particular discussion, was [00:14:40.000] well, maybe this is all some kind of a [00:14:41.600] show, uh some kind of a set of avatars [00:14:45.920] put in place for our not entertainment, [00:14:49.400] but [00:14:50.440] as intermediaries [00:14:52.480] through which we explore the other. [00:14:56.640] Uh that there is that there is another, [00:14:59.280] but it is so ephemeral and so uh beyond [00:15:03.080] understanding that the only way that it [00:15:05.160] can represent itself is by showing [00:15:07.600] itself as not human, but sufficiently [00:15:10.320] similar to what it is that we might want [00:15:12.880] to interface with that we don’t go run [00:15:15.200] screaming for the hills cuz it comes out [00:15:17.760] with a fang-dripping tentacles, [00:15:20.839] uh you know, uh [00:15:22.880] slobbering, we’re going to, you know, [00:15:24.480] we’re going to eat your you and your [00:15:25.960] children. Um, and so, it’s it’s that [00:15:29.600] kind of, um, [00:15:32.680] openness that in fact even got Jacques [00:15:35.240] in trouble in the early days when he [00:15:37.240] said that these might be [00:15:38.080] interdimensionals or that these might [00:15:39.800] be, just as I said, uh, some sort of [00:15:42.280] interface, [00:15:43.560] uh, puppetry or as he would often call [00:15:46.040] it, [00:15:47.120] um, [00:15:48.480] a, uh, well, a puppet show, [00:15:51.160] uh, Kabuki theater. That, uh, it’s not [00:15:55.360] what you see, but it’s the meaning [00:15:57.160] behind what you see. It’s can you see [00:16:00.640] this not as [00:16:02.560] what it seems to be at face value, but [00:16:04.880] that it represents something. But [00:16:07.000] Jacques, of course, went a step further [00:16:09.880] than this, which is to say that the [00:16:12.200] manners in which it is done and the [00:16:14.600] patterning of the timing of how it’s [00:16:18.160] done, uh, actually represents almost a [00:16:20.960] kind of super system, a system of [00:16:23.320] systems that is meant to [00:16:25.960] corral and not control in the, let’s [00:16:28.360] say, a, [00:16:29.320] uh, [00:16:30.520] in a Machiavellian sense, but to point [00:16:33.880] us in certain ways, to open our minds. [00:16:36.600] And in the best possible way, I I mean, [00:16:38.880] assuming, let’s say, the best possible [00:16:40.320] interpretation is [00:16:41.920] that you don’t tell your children [00:16:44.760] necessarily [00:16:47.480] what it is that they should do. You let [00:16:49.680] them make mistakes to learn because [00:16:52.320] that’s the best reinforcement learning [00:16:54.839] is a far better way to learn than to [00:16:56.880] simply be told what to do. [00:16:59.360] Uh, and so, it was sort of a [00:17:01.200] reinforcement entrainment uh, that he [00:17:04.280] was pushing. And this, of course, made [00:17:06.480] him uh, an outlaw [00:17:08.720] in the UFO community, at least for a [00:17:10.319] while, but now everybody in retrospect [00:17:12.839] realizes that it it if anything, it is [00:17:16.079] that larger picture [00:17:18.120] of how to interpret it that is the most [00:17:20.120] scientific because it encompasses [00:17:22.680] almost all of the [00:17:25.319] downstream possibilities, many of which [00:17:27.640] for instance Carl Jung has elaborated [00:17:29.280] upon or others have elaborated upon [00:17:31.600] interdimensionals, [00:17:33.160] hell put offs, ultra terrestrials, etc. [00:17:36.240] All these different kinds of ideas. [00:17:38.880] Um and so [00:17:41.560] I I think that that’s the best way to [00:17:43.240] look at it as a scientist is to say it [00:17:47.040] it falls within these many domains. We [00:17:50.320] have evidence that it’s this or evidence [00:17:52.520] that it’s that, but we don’t have a [00:17:54.160] summary theory [00:17:55.800] that completes the entirety of it unless [00:17:59.160] you go to Jacques’ metatheory. [00:18:02.360] That, you know, that Jacques’ metatheory [00:18:04.720] says that it’s maybe it’s all of these [00:18:06.880] things, but that it depends upon the [00:18:08.840] circumstance and how it wants to [00:18:10.720] represent itself because it’s doing many [00:18:12.480] things at many times. [00:18:14.240] Which would require of course [00:18:16.200] a consciousness and a level of control [00:18:18.720] as Jacques would often put it that it [00:18:20.920] implies that it could take a hold of a [00:18:22.440] volume of space and manipulate it to its [00:18:25.040] will. [00:18:27.640] Well, and so it’s interesting you put [00:18:29.480] you put that on the table because it it [00:18:32.040] once what’s interesting about Jacques’ [00:18:34.320] theory, it’s called I think we can call [00:18:36.400] it the control system theory. [00:18:37.760] >> Control system theory. Which which is [00:18:39.200] basically the idea that that whatever [00:18:41.800] it’s doing it’s a kind of conditioning [00:18:43.440] regime in the behavior of sense [00:18:46.440] and that it has a pedagogical or [00:18:48.760] educative function [00:18:50.640] and as you said it would it would [00:18:52.400] ultimately attempt to try to entrain uh [00:18:56.160] uh human beings to to act or think in a [00:18:58.880] certain way, but it would it would give [00:19:00.520] them some kind of autonomy in making the [00:19:02.680] the choice to learn or or to learn [00:19:04.600] through error. [00:19:05.760] Um so so that theory, the control system [00:19:08.640] theory, as you said it’s it’s um [00:19:11.360] it may be the only proper theory we have [00:19:13.920] in the sense that it can encompass [00:19:16.400] seemingly contradictory or divergent [00:19:18.520] data. Um but on the other hand, it’s a [00:19:21.920] it’s a strong theory. [00:19:23.640] And when people stick with the theory, [00:19:25.640] they sometimes lose the pools of data. [00:19:28.400] Right. [00:19:28.640] >> So my question, you know, for you is is, [00:19:32.000] you know, you you have immense, and I [00:19:34.520] know this for a fact, it’s not rhetoric, [00:19:36.560] you have immense scientific curiosity [00:19:39.160] about the different kinds of data. We [00:19:41.240] can talk about it later, but you you [00:19:42.680] will get on a plane and go somewhere and [00:19:44.960] go to a remote location, and I’ve seen [00:19:46.800] you do it many times, just to just to [00:19:49.560] gather data firsthand. [00:19:51.800] Um what what right now do you are the [00:19:54.440] most compelling, the most intriguing [00:19:56.440] kinds of data, and are you forming new [00:19:59.360] hypotheses and even the beginning of a [00:20:01.080] theory on the basis of those? [00:20:03.440] So, you know, um [00:20:06.120] I often distinguish between anecdotes [00:20:09.320] and [00:20:10.840] replicable science. [00:20:12.880] Uh [00:20:13.728] >> [laughter] [00:20:14.120] >> anecdotes are points in time, uh [00:20:16.280] stories, [00:20:17.600] which are evidence. They’re usually [00:20:20.400] experiential for an individual. [00:20:22.720] Uh and you can either believe them or [00:20:25.120] not, but at least for the from the point [00:20:27.400] of view of the person who experienced [00:20:28.760] it, [00:20:29.680] uh it was true. [00:20:31.560] Uh and so and then there are artifacts [00:20:36.480] left behind. Um and there’s three kinds [00:20:39.160] of artifacts [00:20:40.560] that people talk about. [00:20:42.760] Um there are effects [00:20:45.960] on people or the environment or trees or [00:20:50.480] animals nearby. So, [00:20:53.600] evidence of perturbation. [00:20:56.080] In science, we call it perturbation. So, [00:20:57.920] there’s been a perturbation either read [00:20:59.960] out through x-rays on an individual, [00:21:02.800] burns, [00:21:04.600] apparent skin samples taken or wounds on [00:21:08.920] the skin. [00:21:10.240] Or in the case of a recent study that [00:21:11.880] Jacques had done, bark burned [00:21:15.320] in the middle of the forest at a place [00:21:17.200] where a nuclear physicist saw extremely [00:21:19.680] bright light that they would estimated [00:21:22.320] the [00:21:23.400] light energy to be, you know, [00:21:25.040] extraordinary. [00:21:26.680] Um, or so that’s those are two kinds of [00:21:31.240] evidences or [00:21:32.760] or like a a there supposedly was a craft [00:21:35.120] that landed and then there are [00:21:36.520] depressions in the ground. So there was [00:21:38.360] an object there that, you know, in the [00:21:40.160] depressions are not obviously footprints [00:21:42.640] or anything normally made. [00:21:45.240] Okay, so those are sort of secondary [00:21:47.480] bits of evidence. They’re perturbations [00:21:50.000] that you weren’t there to see them, but [00:21:52.200] they had an effect on something that at [00:21:53.880] least transiently you can still take [00:21:56.560] pictures of or understand. [00:21:59.960] So that’s one kind of [00:22:01.760] bit of evidence. [00:22:03.240] Um, [00:22:04.200] the other might be [00:22:06.840] uh, then materials left behind. And so [00:22:10.280] that has been at least very much part of [00:22:12.720] my initial focus, [00:22:14.480] which has been materials left behind, [00:22:17.000] metals uh, [00:22:19.480] of [00:22:20.520] you know, that some people would call [00:22:22.480] slag, but [00:22:25.000] uh, others other some of the pieces of [00:22:27.720] metals that clearly look structured. [00:22:30.480] Um, the so-called bismuth magnesium [00:22:32.720] pieces of the arts parts etc. [00:22:36.000] Uh, and or pure metals [00:22:39.720] uh, that I’ve had access to and that [00:22:42.960] others have had access to that have [00:22:46.280] um, altered isotope ratios that are [00:22:49.760] um, clearly manufactured. [00:22:53.320] Uh, that they are not [00:22:55.280] To say that they are not of this earth [00:22:56.640] implies that they’re from other place [00:22:58.160] than earth, but there There [00:23:00.760] there are ways that you can in a in [00:23:03.600] human terms manufacture them. [00:23:06.440] Uh but [00:23:08.480] often these pieces, at least some of the [00:23:10.840] ones that I’ve had access to, were [00:23:13.880] uh were found at a time when the [00:23:17.000] industrial capability of our society was [00:23:20.440] not capable of of accomplishing the [00:23:23.640] feat. Or at least if they were, it would [00:23:26.120] be at such extraordinary cost there’s no [00:23:28.840] good reason why [00:23:30.400] that we would do it. [00:23:31.880] Nor a good reason why you might leave it [00:23:33.560] on the beach and you know, on a fancy [00:23:35.600] beach in Brazil. [00:23:37.680] Um we can talk about that that that [00:23:39.880] object later. So that’s a [00:23:42.280] that’s a another kind of evidence that [00:23:45.040] I’ve actually had access to several of [00:23:46.600] those kinds of pieces and and analyzed. [00:23:50.120] Um [00:23:51.200] and then the third one is purely [00:23:53.120] biological, right? The the claims that [00:23:55.680] there are bodies. Now I’ve never seen [00:23:57.680] any of these. I would love to, believe [00:23:59.600] me, but I’ve never. Um and because that [00:24:03.760] to me as a biologist would be [00:24:06.400] uh the holy grail of understanding, [00:24:09.040] okay, well [00:24:10.480] um [00:24:11.840] what are alternative I mean, if you [00:24:13.600] could look at [00:24:15.640] a body and let’s say the the physiology [00:24:18.240] of that body, the organs within it, etc. [00:24:21.520] Um [00:24:22.680] I would expect to see something which is [00:24:25.320] as frankly chaotically designed as [00:24:27.960] humans are. I mean, we are our our [00:24:30.720] systems work, but they’re basically [00:24:33.560] kludged upon kludged upon fix, [00:24:36.960] you know, with rubber gum and everything [00:24:39.320] as evolution took prior [00:24:42.680] functions and turned them into new [00:24:44.040] things cuz they mistakes were allowed to [00:24:47.640] be made that ended up being providential [00:24:50.320] for the organism. [00:24:51.960] Um but we ended up let’s say being [00:24:54.520] being [00:24:55.520] uh led down an evolutionary [00:24:58.560] hole where we’re we’re we’re stuck with [00:25:01.320] what we got. [00:25:03.000] But you can imagine, and this is what [00:25:06.040] today’s so-called synthetic biologists [00:25:08.320] are trying to do, [00:25:10.000] is to say, “Okay, [00:25:11.720] if we could redesign ourselves in the [00:25:14.560] best possible way, in the most efficient [00:25:17.240] way, we might, you know, first of all, [00:25:19.560] get rid of the appendix, [00:25:21.320] you know, formally by gene editing it [00:25:23.360] out, or uh, get rid of [00:25:26.520] uh, certain holes in our immune system [00:25:29.560] that would allow, for instance, a vi- [00:25:31.960] certain kinds of viruses to spread more [00:25:34.160] readily. [00:25:35.520] Um, or we might say, “Hey, you know [00:25:38.240] what? The the the lung and the heart, [00:25:41.320] we’re spending a lot of time [00:25:43.320] moving blood to and from the two. Why [00:25:46.280] don’t we just combine them?” [00:25:48.200] You know, we have a stomach that is [00:25:50.080] separate from, you know, this and that [00:25:52.720] because, you know, in the in the uh, in [00:25:55.080] the digestive tract, well, if we [00:25:58.600] could feed ourselves the right kinds of [00:26:00.360] food, maybe we could simplify the [00:26:02.120] digestive tract. [00:26:03.800] Uh, [00:26:04.400] etc. So, you know, you you you might [00:26:07.280] decide, for instance, that if you’re [00:26:09.320] going to live in space, there are [00:26:11.120] certain attributes of the human body [00:26:13.520] that we already know are are wrong for [00:26:15.920] living in zero G. Um, I mean, we we know [00:26:19.400] that’s what happens to uh, [00:26:21.960] to uh, astronauts when they when they [00:26:24.560] go. They have problems later with their [00:26:26.080] eyes, they lose bone density, they lose [00:26:27.720] muscle mass, etc. So, there are probably [00:26:30.400] compensatory changes that you might [00:26:32.160] synthetically alter if humans wanted to [00:26:35.480] live in a different place. So, we don’t [00:26:37.320] have that level of knowledge base yet to [00:26:40.040] accomplish it, but you can imagine that [00:26:43.600] a more advanced civilization would, so [00:26:45.880] that if they were to come here, and they [00:26:48.840] were to come here knowing that they [00:26:50.400] would be living in such environments, [00:26:52.480] they might [00:26:53.600] do two things at once. One, look enough [00:26:55.680] like us so that we wouldn’t run [00:26:57.480] screaming for the hills, [00:26:59.000] uh but two, adapt themselves in ways [00:27:02.040] that allow them to live uh across [00:27:04.280] multiple [00:27:05.640] uh [00:27:06.280] ecologic zones. [00:27:10.560] Okay. Wow. Okay, so you just sent my [00:27:12.560] mind running in many directions at once. [00:27:15.520] Here’s a Here’s a simple question. I [00:27:17.680] don’t want to digress too much about [00:27:19.200] this, but but one of the challenges [00:27:21.360] synthetic biology would face [00:27:23.960] um in kind of re-engineering, [00:27:26.680] redesigning [00:27:28.200] uh the human body would be you would [00:27:30.280] have to do this iteratively across many [00:27:32.760] generations, correct? [00:27:34.880] I mean, [00:27:36.720] at the level you’re talking about. You [00:27:38.120] would be [00:27:39.040] redesigning organs and Right. So, I [00:27:42.120] mean, that’s because we’re still [00:27:43.760] learning. And iteration usually implies [00:27:47.520] trial and error, which is learning. But [00:27:50.240] I mean, look at the company, um I think [00:27:52.160] it’s called Mammoth or uh I forget the [00:27:54.400] other one. It’s I mean, it was by George [00:27:56.160] Church, where they literally have [00:27:58.280] they’ve resurrected at least the visual [00:28:02.520] um [00:28:03.280] format of a direwolf, you know, a wolf [00:28:05.240] that came from, you know, many uh [00:28:08.680] tens of centuries ago [00:28:10.480] um by using the genetic code from [00:28:14.080] uh mummified direwolves or the woolly [00:28:16.720] mammoth. You know, the first woolly [00:28:18.560] woolly mammoth has been born. Um now, is [00:28:21.080] it really a woolly mammoth? No, that we [00:28:22.840] It doesn’t have all the capabilities to [00:28:24.520] live in the [00:28:25.960] in the Arctic yet. I I I would question [00:28:29.480] that they’ve done all of that yet. But [00:28:31.920] But to your point of iteration, [00:28:34.400] but with sufficient knowledge before [00:28:37.160] even starting, uh one might have [00:28:40.400] sufficient command of genetics and [00:28:42.600] metabolism and biology to [00:28:46.880] ordain what it is that you want and then [00:28:49.160] reverse engineer and not even have to do [00:28:51.560] trial and error. [00:28:52.960] Just print it. Just have it happen. [00:28:56.720] Um or design an egg that became it. Uh [00:29:01.880] you know, in whatever form of uh [00:29:05.080] growth tank they want to utilize. [00:29:08.760] Um so, but that would require a level of [00:29:13.040] super intelligence that at least today [00:29:15.400] we don’t have, but [00:29:17.880] surprisingly [00:29:19.480] you know, um with the advances that AI [00:29:23.480] are making even today [00:29:26.960] we don’t even know [00:29:28.960] within 10 years if we might not even [00:29:31.200] have or not we, but the AIs that we [00:29:34.160] create might not even have such a thing. [00:29:37.000] So, it’s it’s then very easy to take [00:29:39.480] yourself [00:29:40.920] aside and say, “Okay, well let’s say [00:29:42.360] there was a civilization uh that arose a [00:29:45.360] hundred million years before we did [00:29:46.920] elsewhere in the nearby galaxy. [00:29:49.960] It wouldn’t be hard for us to imagine [00:29:52.360] that they had achieved that level of [00:29:53.840] super intelligence not personally [00:29:55.360] themselves, but through their AI that [00:29:58.240] their AI would be able to come here. [00:30:01.680] Uh and you know, do everything that [00:30:04.520] Jacques is saying that they seem to be [00:30:06.520] capable of doing, which is why I always [00:30:09.560] I [00:30:10.440] I always [00:30:11.920] I am confused by scientists [00:30:16.120] uh who get up and say, “Well, there’s no [00:30:18.240] way for them to get here.” [00:30:19.960] Well, who says that [00:30:22.480] the the thing that was launched is the [00:30:24.560] same [00:30:25.720] as what it it was that got printed on [00:30:27.360] the other side when it arrived here a [00:30:29.320] hundred thousand years later even at you [00:30:31.600] know, point one [00:30:33.440] uh the speed of light. [00:30:35.520] Um I just don’t I I I don’t understand [00:30:38.040] that because [00:30:39.800] I don’t ever think for instance that me [00:30:42.040] getting on a ship [00:30:44.240] means that I need to be the thing on the [00:30:45.720] other side that gets off. [00:30:47.960] I’d be just as happy to [00:30:49.920] design an AI that would print, [00:30:53.600] you know, my progeny on the other side, [00:30:57.200] even if it had to do it from raw [00:30:59.040] chemicals. [00:31:01.560] Well, and what’s what’s also interesting [00:31:03.120] about that is that about that objection [00:31:07.200] is that [00:31:08.760] it presumes that our science, our [00:31:11.040] technology, our our ontology even about [00:31:15.520] the universe, [00:31:16.880] all those things are going to be [00:31:20.840] unrevised, not transformed in the [00:31:22.920] future. [00:31:24.160] And yet, if you’re discussing even just [00:31:26.240] speculatively or hypothetically [00:31:28.720] extraterrestrials, you might have to [00:31:30.760] presume that they would be further along [00:31:32.920] in science and like understand of [00:31:34.680] reality. I mean, it it it doesn’t make [00:31:36.280] sense as a kind of cover-all objection. [00:31:39.200] It certainly does [00:31:40.720] from the perspective of science today to [00:31:42.520] say I can’t investigate X, Y, or Z [00:31:44.400] because I would have no, you know, I you [00:31:46.360] could make that objection then, but it [00:31:47.680] doesn’t make sense if you extrapolate [00:31:49.240] out, you know, you if you move out from [00:31:52.440] science and you say, “Well, we we can’t [00:31:54.440] just evaluate those proposals through [00:31:56.960] through through data and through [00:31:58.640] science.” But, coming back to science, I [00:32:01.480] think you have you’re pointing out you [00:32:03.640] have many reasons to [00:32:05.960] not just take UAPs seriously, but to [00:32:08.480] take seriously the prospect that they [00:32:10.960] can be investigated scientifically. You [00:32:12.880] laid out three kinds of data. [00:32:15.280] Perturbations to living and non-living [00:32:18.440] things. [00:32:19.520] Metals [00:32:22.520] and materials that appear that at least [00:32:25.040] allegedly come from UAP events, and I [00:32:27.080] think we can be pretty sure they do in [00:32:29.120] in [00:32:30.000] many cases, but also other anomalous [00:32:32.000] metals. [00:32:33.120] And then, [00:32:34.480] apparent [00:32:36.560] biological specimens. [00:32:37.960] >> Right. Alleged bodies, yeah. Alleged [00:32:39.840] bodies. You know, and in the material [00:32:41.400] sense, I mean, all of the things that [00:32:44.360] I have apart from the Arts Parts [00:32:47.200] piece that we’ve been involved in [00:32:48.920] developing [00:32:50.160] seem to be effluvia, things left over, [00:32:53.600] some sort of exhaust or [00:32:55.960] uh industrial byproduct uh rather than [00:33:00.520] the machine itself. [00:33:02.400] And I Now, I’d be interested in the [00:33:03.800] machine itself because the you know, the [00:33:06.760] so-called effluvia as I call it or the [00:33:08.960] leftover like the some of the metals [00:33:11.480] they are indicative of a process that I [00:33:13.680] only have to I have to guess at why that [00:33:17.120] would be the downstream product. I’m [00:33:19.480] making the assumption that there was [00:33:21.680] some utility or some machine that took [00:33:25.840] something else and ended up making that, [00:33:27.520] but that was the leftover. [00:33:29.400] Uh but it was for the purpose of doing [00:33:32.040] some other function. So, my only my main [00:33:35.360] interest is first showing that it’s [00:33:37.200] anomalous and then putting that data out [00:33:40.080] and to the world at large and saying [00:33:43.520] why do you think this? Why would How [00:33:46.000] would this happen? [00:33:47.480] I mean, let let’s turn more specifically [00:33:49.560] then to the Ubatuba part that um I’ve [00:33:52.360] been involved with. And And before you [00:33:54.760] jump into that, what it What is the [00:33:56.440] Ubatuba? [00:33:57.600] So, the Ubatuba was a um was uh an event [00:34:02.440] uh [00:34:03.040] in Ubatuba, Mexico in the [00:34:05.720] late supposed 1950s, [00:34:08.480] but some [00:34:09.720] uh some stories seem to put it even [00:34:11.800] earlier [00:34:13.000] where um [00:34:14.840] uh supposedly a fisherman had seen uh [00:34:18.639] a UFO of some kind and the story changes [00:34:21.840] depending on [00:34:23.399] you know, the or [00:34:25.280] whose origin that you you listen to, but [00:34:28.399] an object was seen that I that either [00:34:31.000] dropped something was glowing, you know, [00:34:33.120] they dropped something and then whatever [00:34:34.800] or it itself exploded. [00:34:37.440] Uh and left metal scattered across the [00:34:40.040] beach and in the water. Um and [00:34:42.200] supposedly this fisherman [00:34:44.320] uh picked it up or called somebody and [00:34:47.080] somebody came and picked it up and I [00:34:48.200] haven’t been able to really trace down [00:34:49.879] the reality of that. [00:34:51.919] But in one [00:34:53.120] way or another this metal ended up in [00:34:55.480] the hands of a reporter [00:34:57.280] in Brazil. [00:34:58.880] Um and that individual [00:35:02.040] uh had some of it analyzed by scientists [00:35:05.120] locally. [00:35:06.480] Uh and then sent that pieces of it off [00:35:10.160] in different directions to uh either a [00:35:12.840] museum in Argentina or ended up in some [00:35:15.840] places in in the United States. [00:35:18.120] And when I came across it and when [00:35:21.000] Jacques had given me a piece of the [00:35:22.760] material, [00:35:24.320] um it was claimed to be magnesium. [00:35:28.600] Pure nearly pure magnesium and the [00:35:30.200] stories uh were all that this is pure [00:35:32.760] magnesium. [00:35:34.320] Um and so uh and then others such as [00:35:37.680] Robert Powell and Michael Swords had [00:35:40.040] done analysis on it uh [00:35:43.280] on the material that they had at least [00:35:45.000] the the the chain of custody that they [00:35:46.600] had [00:35:47.720] uh validating that it was nearly pure [00:35:49.880] magnesium. [00:35:51.200] Um which isn’t hard to make uh [00:35:54.000] but it sort of leaves open the [00:35:57.760] question of why would you have pure [00:35:59.720] magnesium? It’s not [00:36:02.400] it’s not useful as a [00:36:05.840] um [00:36:07.080] as a material you would use from a [00:36:10.640] from a um [00:36:12.200] a a materials resilience standpoint [00:36:15.880] because if you set it on fire or if you [00:36:17.800] heat it up to a certain point it’ll [00:36:19.000] actually [00:36:20.400] you know, you explode. [00:36:22.960] Um [00:36:24.200] but then the piece that I got was [00:36:26.040] unusual because it didn’t to me look [00:36:30.560] like magnesium. I mean, I I took it at [00:36:32.640] face value that somebody said it was [00:36:33.760] magnesium, but it had a kind of shiny [00:36:35.960] silver-blue aspect to it. [00:36:38.640] And my mind went back to my chemistry [00:36:40.840] class uh back in high school and my [00:36:44.880] chemistry teacher at the time was a guy [00:36:46.320] by the name of Dr. Spencer. [00:36:48.440] And Dr. Spencer had actually worked on [00:36:49.880] the Manhattan Project. [00:36:51.960] Uh and it was a private school [00:36:55.040] uh and so it was just me and one other [00:36:56.960] student in these this advanced chemistry [00:36:58.880] class and he brought in a piece of [00:37:01.200] magnesium and showed how he could light [00:37:03.320] it on fire and it wouldn’t stop unless [00:37:05.000] he put it in [00:37:06.320] a kind of oil that would snuff it out [00:37:08.800] and wouldn’t itself catch on fire. [00:37:11.040] And so but he even before he did that, [00:37:13.760] he showed us it and it it had kind of a [00:37:15.680] dusty coating, an oxide. [00:37:18.040] And so I remembered that all the way [00:37:20.280] back from chemistry and so when I saw [00:37:21.680] this kind of bluish metal, [00:37:24.000] I thought this doesn’t that doesn’t look [00:37:25.520] like it, but I just again took it at [00:37:26.840] face value and didn’t really think too [00:37:28.360] much about it and I probably don’t know [00:37:29.520] very much about what you know, what it [00:37:31.480] could be. [00:37:32.400] So [00:37:33.800] Jacques and I put this in an instrument [00:37:36.320] called a secondary ion mass spec, a kind [00:37:38.320] of instrument at Stanford it that is um [00:37:42.640] super sensitive, so sensitive that you [00:37:44.640] can separate out uh not only different [00:37:48.000] isotopes uh by their mass, but actually [00:37:52.440] um it was sufficiently sensitive that [00:37:54.360] you could separate out a chromium [00:37:57.120] isotope that is almost exactly the same [00:37:59.040] weight as an iron isotope [00:38:01.880] by the third or fourth decimal points [00:38:04.240] weight. [00:38:05.520] And it’s called a magnetic sector mass [00:38:07.600] spectrometer. And what’s great about [00:38:09.480] this instrument is it is so [00:38:11.080] ultra-sensitive, but what’s not great [00:38:13.240] about it is that it is [00:38:16.320] um you can only measure [00:38:18.480] nine, well, maybe yes, eight or nine [00:38:21.920] things at a time. So you had to decide [00:38:23.920] ahead of time what it is that you wanted [00:38:25.160] to look at and took a lot of time to [00:38:27.000] maneuver the detectors along the track [00:38:30.080] so that they’d be at the right position [00:38:31.400] so that the when the magnetic sector [00:38:33.320] changed the arc of the masses, it would [00:38:36.320] hit the right detector at the right [00:38:37.360] time. [00:38:38.200] So, we set it up for uh because we [00:38:41.000] actually had multiple different samples [00:38:42.360] in our [00:38:43.520] chamber. [00:38:44.600] We set it up for magnesium [00:38:46.760] for the Ubatuba and we set it up for [00:38:48.600] iron and chromium and titanium for these [00:38:52.720] other pieces that we had for the Council [00:38:54.480] Bluffs and a few other things that [00:38:55.800] Jacques had [00:38:57.000] had. So, we tried to do it all at once [00:38:58.520] cuz actually was expensive. It was going [00:38:59.880] to be a $5,000experimenttodothisand[00:39:03.280]Iwastakingitoutofmyum[00:39:05.720]outofmyendowedfunds.[00:39:08.080]UmwhichIwasallowedtodo.[00:39:10.000]Umso,uh[00:39:14.720]Whatwasinterestingwasthattwopieces[00:39:16.360]ofthatUbaoftheUbaWehadfour[00:39:18.120]piecesoftheUbatubaintherecuzwe[00:39:20.200]wantedtobeabletodoitinale{t}^{\prime }s[00:39:22.560]sayastatisticallyvalidwayandthree[00:39:24.120]issortoftheminimumyouneedtodo.[00:39:26.320]Um[00:39:27.640]youknow,fourisabitbetter.Yo{u}^{\prime }d[00:39:28.960]lovetohavedone10fragments,you[00:39:30.920]know,or100differentfragments,but[00:39:32.880]youknow,youyo{u}^{\prime }rei{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }samildly[00:39:35.880]destructive[00:39:37.400]uhprocess,butyo{u}^{\prime }retakingoff[00:39:40.120]literallynanometersofmaterial.You[00:39:42.920]youyouknow,forallintentsand[00:39:44.440]purposes,nobodywouldknowthatyo{u}^{\prime }d[00:39:45.880]doneanythingtoit,butitstilltakes[00:39:47.840]timeandeffort.Andso,wefocusedit[00:39:50.520]onthemagnesium[00:39:52.080]andtwopieces[00:39:54.000]fromoneofthesamples,uhMoctezumaA[00:39:57.360]orMoctezumaB,whichyoupeoplewill[00:39:59.600]recognizeas[00:40:01.240]beinguh[00:40:02.960]Ithinktha{t}^{\prime }s[00:40:04.280]uhBrazilian.[00:40:06.800]Ithinkthatormaybetha{t}^{\prime }stha{t}^{\prime }suh[00:40:08.440]no,tha{t}^{\prime }sSpanish.[00:40:10.560]UhbecausethiswasfromtheArgentinian[00:40:13.240]museum.ThepiecesthatIhadwerefrom[00:40:15.040]theArgentinianMuseum.[00:40:17.840]Andso,uh[00:40:19.920]asopposedtothepiecesthat[00:40:22.280]theum[00:40:23.920]MichaelSwordsandRobertPowellhad,[00:40:26.960]whichwerefromadifferentchainof[00:40:28.080]evidence,whichwereshowntobea[00:40:29.880]magnesium.So,welookedatmagnesium[00:40:31.720]andloandbehold,wesawmagnesium[00:40:33.560]there.[00:40:34.560]Uh[00:40:35.480]andbutthattwoofthesampleshad[00:40:38.200]magnesiumattheratiothatmagnesium[00:40:40.560]isotopesuh242526[00:40:43.800]atexactlytheratioasyouwouldexpect[00:40:45.880]tosee[00:40:47.000]uhonEarth.[00:40:49.240]TwooftheothersamplesfromIsee[00:40:51.600]moistureB,sampleB,moisturemeans[00:40:54.200]samplemoreorless,[00:40:56.040]um[00:40:57.400]hadidenticallydifferentratios[00:41:02.720]thatweredifferentfromnormal.Sofar[00:41:05.560]offastobestatisticallyimprobable[00:41:07.640]thatitwouldbeitwouldhavebeena[00:41:09.080]mistake.Andevenmoresostatistically[00:41:11.800]improbablethatittheywereallonthe[00:41:13.280]samechip,measuredatthesametimein[00:41:16.200]thesameinstrument,[00:41:17.800]uh[00:41:18.480]andso,youknow,notlikelythatthere[00:41:20.840]wereaninstrumenterror[00:41:22.600]uhgoingonhere.[00:41:24.320]So,youknow,[00:41:26.040]fastforwardafewyears[00:41:29.000]andumItalkedaboutthispublicly[00:41:33.000]uhthatohohthensothenIdida[00:41:35.760]differentanalysis.[00:41:37.800]Umwedidsomethingcalledatomicprobe[00:41:39.800]tomography.[00:41:41.280]Atomicprobetomographyworksby[00:41:42.800]literallyeatingintothesampleatomby[00:41:45.200]atom[00:41:46.200]andyougetarelativepositionofwhere[00:41:48.520]thatatomiswithinaboutfive[00:41:50.040]angstroms.Um[00:41:52.520]andi{t}^{\prime }saveryverycommontechnique.[00:41:54.800]I{t}^{\prime }sbeenaroundfor4050years.[00:41:57.160]Umi{t}^{\prime }s[00:41:58.920]technicallyverydifficulttodo.Each[00:42:01.840]ofeachofthosesamplesformetodo[00:42:04.000]costme$5,000. [00:42:06.120] And so, you know, in total I did about [00:42:08.600] 10, so that was $50,000worthofeffort.[00:42:11.520]Butwhatyougetisanatomicmapof[00:42:14.080]whereeachoftheatomsare.Youget[00:42:15.920]about50[00:42:18.080]thatareinthesample.[00:42:19.840]Umwhichisextraordinaryandtheir[00:42:22.600]relativepositionwithinfiveangstroms.[00:42:24.760]Sojusttogivepeopleasenseofof[00:42:27.720]whatthatdistancemeans.[00:42:29.600]Thestandardinteratomicdistance[00:42:32.160]betweentwoatoms,le{t}^{\prime }ssayina[00:42:34.040]carbon-carbonbond,isalittleless[00:42:36.320]thananangstrom.[00:42:38.320]Umandsoifyouhavesomethingwhich[00:42:41.240]yo{u}^{\prime }reonlymeasuringwithinaboutfive[00:42:43.200]angstromdistance,le{t}^{\prime }ssayyouhadsix[00:42:46.440]carbonatomsinaring,thatwouldbeuh[00:42:48.920]grapheneorbenzene,dependinguponwhat[00:42:51.760]itistha{t}^{\prime }s,youknow,attachedtoit[00:42:53.440]nearby.[00:42:54.720]Umifyouweretorandomizethosewithin[00:42:56.760]fiveangstroms,youwouldjustgeta[00:42:58.000]littlecloudofofatoms.Youwould{n}^{\prime }t[00:43:00.400]reallyknowwhatitsexactpositioning[00:43:02.400]was.[00:43:03.320]Buti{t}^{\prime }sstillgoodenough.[00:43:05.480]Umbutthefirstthingthatcameacross[00:43:08.160]fromthatanalysiswas[00:43:10.040]itwassilicon.Infact,itwas99.99[00:43:13.760]silicon.[00:43:15.240]AndIthinkwait,andandtomakesure[00:43:16.960]everybodyfollows,thisisthisisthis[00:43:18.920]verysamplefromUbatubathatyouyou[00:43:22.160]hadsimplyassumedbecauseyouweretold[00:43:24.240]thatthiswasthecasewasjustpure[00:43:25.840]magnesium.Exactly.[00:43:27.880]AndsoIthoughtsomebod{y}^{\prime }smadea[00:43:30.440]mistakehere.Therewasmagnesiuminthe[00:43:33.160]sample.[00:43:34.560]Andyouhadonlylookedformagnesium[00:43:36.520]becauseYeah.Right.Butitwasatsuch[00:43:39.080]averylowconcentration.[00:43:42.320]UhandbecausethisinstrumentthatI[00:43:44.600]usedoriginally,theSimsNanoSimsmade[00:43:47.280]byCameca,wassohighlysensitive,we[00:43:50.920]wereabletopickitupcuzwewere[00:43:52.480]lookingforit.Youknow,i{t}^{\prime }skindof[00:43:54.360]likeyouifyougolookingfor[00:43:55.960]something,yo{u}^{\prime }llonlyseeit.Butif[00:43:57.280]youdo{n}^{\prime }tlookforsomethingthatmight[00:43:58.640]bethere,yo{u}^{\prime }llmissit.[00:44:00.600]And{I}^{\prime }msurethisisoneofthose[00:44:01.840]mistakesthatyoujustthoughtlikeasa[00:44:03.840]scientistlike,okay,[00:44:06.200]whydidIjusttakeontrustwhat[00:44:08.680]someonesaidaboutdata?[00:44:10.280]>>Exactly.[00:44:12.120]But,youknow,youknow,[00:44:13.680]IIIIIIIIlookatRobertPowel{l}^{\prime }s[00:44:15.080]andtheirresultsandgo,"Well,whywhy[00:44:16.400]would{n}^{\prime }tI?"But,thenifIputit[00:44:17.800]togetherwiththissortofincongruence[00:44:19.960]ofwhetheritwaskindofbluishmetal[00:44:21.760]shinymetalandIknewfrommylike[00:44:25.040]firsteverrealchemistryclassthatit[00:44:27.320]shouldhavebeen,youknow,adusty[00:44:29.400]oxide[00:44:30.720]umonthesurface.[00:44:32.600]Uhyouknow,soanyway,thethat[00:44:34.880]incongruity[00:44:36.960]youknow,camebackto,youknow,toto[00:44:38.880]hauntme.[00:44:40.040]So,Italkedaboutthefactthatitwas[00:44:42.280]silicon[00:44:43.800]umpubliclyatonepointandthenIgot[00:44:46.200]anotefromuhRobertPowellsaying,[00:44:48.920]"Gary,Ithinkyoumadeamistake.[00:44:51.000]UhthisisWecheckeditoutandi{t}^{\prime }s[00:44:53.960]magnesiumandher{e}^{\prime }sourpaper."[00:44:56.320]And,youknow,Ilookedattheirpaper[00:44:58.560]andtherewaszerowrongwithit.[00:45:01.080]AndIsenthimmydata[00:45:03.120]and,youknow,heca{n}^{\prime }tfindanything[00:45:05.080]wrongwiththedata.I{t}^{\prime }sjustthedata.[00:45:07.720]So,youhavetocometotheyouhaveto[00:45:08.960]cometooneofatleasttwoconclusions.[00:45:12.520]Therewereeithertwometalsonthat[00:45:13.840]beach[00:45:15.080]whichendedupbeingtwodifferent[00:45:17.000]chainsofcustody,oneofwhichendedup[00:45:19.040]inArgentinaandtheotherwhichended[00:45:20.560]upinthe[00:45:22.080]inthehandsofthisreporter.But,[00:45:23.600]interesting,oneofthemoisturesamples[00:45:26.480]camethroughthissupposedlysame[00:45:28.720]reporterandwassentto[00:45:32.600]uhtheArgentiniangroup.Andthenthere[00:45:35.040]wasaAndthenoneoftheothersamples[00:45:36.440]camethroughanotherone.So,So,the[00:45:38.680]samereporterapparentlyhadaccessto[00:45:41.000]bothofthesemetals,oneofwhichended[00:45:43.400]upin,youknow,onechainofcustody[00:45:45.960]andanalysiswhichsaid,"Hey,thisis[00:45:47.760]magnesium."Theotherwhichendedup[00:45:50.480]youknow,in[00:45:51.760]uhmoistureintheotherhand.[00:45:54.520]Now,[00:45:55.840]Iwastalkingwithsomescientistsover[00:45:59.320]intheengineeringdepartmentaboutour[00:46:03.320]results[00:46:04.600]andthesiliconresultsandsayingand[00:46:08.000]andthemagnesiumresults[00:46:10.240]andum[00:46:12.400]theyhadlookedoriginallyatthe[00:46:14.400]magnesiumresultsandsaid,well,[00:46:16.520]ther{e}^{\prime }ssomethinginterestingabout[00:46:17.800]thesemagnesiumresultsinthatifyou[00:46:20.440]lookatthechangesthathaveoccurred[00:46:23.360]thethe2425and26[00:46:27.600]uhinwhatshouldbenormal[00:46:30.000]havetheratioshaveallbeenshiftedup[00:46:32.920]one.[00:46:34.480]The{y}^{\prime }veallgonefrom24the24has[00:46:37.120]become25[00:46:38.880]and25hasbecome26.So24issupposed[00:46:41.520]tobeabout80[00:46:43.480]Uh25issupposedtobeaboutnineand[00:46:45.280]theotherissupposedtobe11moreor[00:46:46.440]less.[00:46:47.640]Everythinggotshiftedoneoverand[00:46:50.080]meaninglike[00:46:51.560]okay,[00:46:52.680]ther{e}^{\prime }sbeensohowyouyoucoulddo[00:46:54.960]thatoneoftwoways.[00:46:56.840]Onewayyoucandoitisyoucanjust[00:47:00.000]purifytheelements[00:47:02.480]uhtheisotopeswhichyoucando.[00:47:05.080]Andyo{u}^{\prime }reaboutperhapstogotowaruh[00:47:07.640]withIranovernuclearenrichmentof[00:47:10.040]isotopes.[00:47:11.320]Um[00:47:12.720]anduh[00:47:14.600]andthenmixthembacktogetherinthis[00:47:16.280]ratio.Andbutthewhyofwhyyouwould[00:47:18.320]doitis[00:47:19.840]uh[00:47:20.640]ther{e}^{\prime }snother{e}^{\prime }snogoodreasontodo[00:47:22.120]it.Andandnoandif{I}^{\prime }mcorrectabout[00:47:24.560]this,ther{e}^{\prime }snorecordofindustrial[00:47:27.680]processesthathavebeenusedtodo[00:47:29.720]that.No.No.Imean,youcoulddoit,[00:47:32.240]butther{e}^{\prime }snoreasontodoit.Soand[00:47:34.040]i{t}^{\prime }satleastatthetimethatthiswas[00:47:35.560]founditwouldhavebeenveryexpensive[00:47:36.960]todo.[00:47:37.920]Especiallyinthegramlevellevels.I^{\prime }m[00:47:40.920]notsure.Andsothisum[00:47:43.760]theseresearcherssaid,well,youknow,[00:47:45.560]ther{e}^{\prime }sanotherwaythatitcanbedone.[00:47:47.520]Andthentha{t}^{\prime }suh[00:47:49.560]uh[00:47:50.760]exposingthematerialto[00:47:53.680]heavyneutronbombardment.[00:47:56.400]Wha{t}^{\prime }sneutronbombardment?Well,the[00:47:58.480]differencebetween24,25,and26of[00:48:01.560]magnesium[00:48:03.040]is[00:48:04.320]uhthattheyhaveanadditionalneutron.[00:48:06.680]25hasthesamenumberofprotons,has[00:48:08.840]anadditionalneutron.Theyhavethe[00:48:11.080]same[00:48:12.320]electronicconfiguration,thesame[00:48:14.920]basicallywhateverthefunctionalityof[00:48:18.280]theoftheum[00:48:20.360]nucleusis[00:48:21.840]uhismoreorlessthesamewiththe[00:48:23.960]somespincomponentdifferences.[00:48:27.400]Howtheybehaveinelectromagnetic[00:48:28.760]fields.[00:48:29.920]Umbutsowhatwhatthispostdocdiduh[00:48:34.560]inthisgu{y}^{\prime }slabwashesaid,"Well,[00:48:36.880]youknow,le{t}^{\prime }scalculatehowmuch[00:48:39.480]exposurewouldberequiredto[00:48:43.000]getthis[00:48:44.800]difference."[00:48:46.360]Andsowhatyoudoisyoudosomething[00:48:48.080]whichiscalleduhyouknow,[00:48:49.640]cross-sectionalanalysisofofwhatis[00:48:52.520]theshapeoftheofthenucleus[00:48:55.840]uhandwhatisthewhatisknownabout[00:48:58.520]thebombardmentcharacteristicsof[00:49:00.360]wha{t}^{\prime }srequiredtogetaneutronforced[00:49:02.240]into[00:49:03.400]uh[00:49:04.000]anucleus.[00:49:05.840]Umanduh[00:49:08.120]sotheycomeupwithanumberandshowed[00:49:10.120]thatinfactuniformexposureofpure[00:49:13.720]magnesiumtothefollowingamountof[00:49:16.840]radiationwouldgiveyouexactlythe[00:49:19.400]ratiothatyousaw.Soitwas{n}^{\prime }tWhatit[00:49:22.200]wassayingwastheratiosthatwesaw[00:49:24.160]werenotrandom.[00:49:25.560]Yeah,whenyoufirsttoldmethis,mymy[00:49:28.080]mindwasprettyblownbythat.UmandI[00:49:31.000]was{n}^{\prime }tsureyouwerereadytotalkabout[00:49:32.600]thatpubliclytoday,so{I}^{\prime }mgladyou[00:49:34.000]broughtitup.Whatyoutoldmeatthe[00:49:35.800]timewas,youknow,itandIIthink{I}^{\prime }m[00:49:38.000]abouttosaysomethingyouwereaboutto[00:49:39.840]say,umisi{t}^{\prime }snotjustrandom.It[00:49:43.400]correspondstoauhphysicalprinciple.[00:49:46.360]Yeah.Yeah,sother{e}^{\prime }syeah,thatthere[00:49:48.560]isthatyoucan[00:49:51.040]youcan[00:49:52.200]hypothesize[00:49:53.720]thatthematerialwasexposedto[00:49:55.520]neutrons[00:49:57.160]forsomeperiodoftimesufficientto[00:49:59.640]getthat[00:50:01.360]change.[00:50:02.560]Umand[00:50:05.040]theamountofneutron[00:50:07.520]exposure[00:50:08.760]waswasnottrivialtoaccomplishthat.[00:50:12.680]SothenIthought,"Gee,well,what[00:50:14.600]aboutthesilicon?"Cuzsiliconactually[00:50:16.560]hasisotopesaswell.Actuallythree[00:50:19.440]isotopesofofsilicon.[00:50:21.549]>>[snorts][00:50:21.680]>>Uh28,29,and30.[00:50:23.760]Uh27isaluminum.[00:50:26.160]Sowhichhasonlyasingleuhisotope.[00:50:29.480]Uhstable.Ther{e}^{\prime }sasemi-stable[00:50:31.440]version,butitithasahalf-lifeofa[00:50:34.200]fewthousandyears.[00:50:35.880]Um[00:50:37.680]andsoessentiallyther{e}^{\prime }snoneofthat[00:50:39.240]around.Theonlyplaceyoufinditisin[00:50:40.920]outerspacewhereitgetsexposedto[00:50:42.640]gammaparticles.[00:50:44.560]Um[00:50:45.960]andsoum[00:50:48.400]Iwentbackandlookedattheratiosof[00:50:50.360]thesiliconthatIhadsittinginmy[00:50:54.240]databank[00:50:55.480]for3years.[00:50:57.880]AndIIaboutwantedtokillmyself[00:51:00.640]becausetheratiosofthesiliconwere[00:51:02.320]wayoff.AndIIwaslike,"Whydid{n}^{\prime }t[00:51:04.720]GaryWhydid{n}^{\prime }tyouevenlookYoudid{n}^{\prime }t[00:51:06.200]evenlook,Gary,atthedatathatwas[00:51:08.120]sittinginfrontofyou[00:51:09.560]andseethatthesiliconratiosareway[00:51:11.360]off?"[00:51:12.680]Andnotliketriviallyoff,again,way[00:51:15.600]off.[00:51:16.720]SoI[00:51:17.800]gavethemtheAndagain,inthesameway[00:51:20.240]thattheloweronewasconvertedtothe[00:51:22.120]tothenextoneup.Thenextonewas[00:51:23.480]convertedtothenextoneup.[00:51:25.920]UhandsoItoldthe[00:51:29.120]postdoc,"Uhher{e}^{\prime }sthesame."Andhe[00:51:31.480]haddevelopedthis,youknow,allthese[00:51:33.200]complexequationstodothis[00:51:35.120]computation.[00:51:36.560]Umweactuallywrotealittlepaper[00:51:38.520]aboutitthatw{e}^{\prime }regoingtobeputting[00:51:40.040]forwardatsomepoint.[00:51:41.760]Um[00:51:43.240]andloandbehold,[00:51:46.000]uhwithinafactorofliketwoorthree,[00:51:49.880]thesamelevelofradiationofneutron[00:51:53.600]bombardmentcapableofconvertingthe[00:51:55.520]magnesiumwaswhatwouldberequiredto[00:51:58.640]convertthesilicontotheratiosthat[00:52:01.680]wesaw.[00:52:02.680]Okay,thisIdid{n}^{\prime }tknow.So,i{t}^{\prime }s[00:52:04.200]actuallyi{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }sthesame[00:52:06.600]intensityofradiation.IfICorrect.[00:52:08.800]Correct.Andi{t}^{\prime }slikeyoueitherletit[00:52:10.840]sitinanuclearreactorfor10,000[00:52:13.360]yearsoryouexposeittoittoa[00:52:15.880]neutronbeamof[00:52:19.120]suchhighlevelsofthatpeopledo{n}^{\prime }t[00:52:21.600]evenwedo{n}^{\prime }tevenhavethem.[00:52:23.560]Okay.So,[00:52:25.120]um,[00:52:26.800]Now,describethatmathematically.When[00:52:28.320]youtoldmeaboutthat,yousaiditwas[00:52:29.720]justaitwasatremendousenergy[00:52:31.720]required.[00:52:32.200]>>Yeah,I{I}^{\prime }ll{I}^{\prime }llhavetogoandfind[00:52:34.480]the[00:52:36.040]Imaybeduringabreakinthis,I^{\prime }llgo[00:52:38.880]andfinditandwecancomebacktoit[00:52:40.320]andIcanshowyouthetheactual[00:52:41.840]picture.[00:52:43.120]Um,[00:52:44.200]so,inordinatelevelsof[00:52:47.880]of[00:52:48.960]uh,neutronradiationwouldberequired.[00:52:51.840]Um,okay.So,tha{t}^{\prime }s[00:52:55.240]IIagain,Iputthatasapreliminary[00:52:57.040]result.Becausenow{I}^{\prime }m{I}^{\prime }mgoingback[00:52:59.200]andlookingatmydataandsayingand[00:53:03.000]askingmyself,whatcouldIhavedone[00:53:05.240]wrong[00:53:06.440]uh,[00:53:07.000]incomputingtheseratios?IsthereIs[00:53:10.120]thereanysystematicerrorinwhatitis[00:53:12.760]that{I}^{\prime }vedone,youknow,beforeIdare[00:53:14.640]publishapaper.[00:53:15.960]AndandthisIkindofwanttousethis[00:53:17.120]asaasaasapivotpointjust[00:53:19.040]momentarilytosay,[00:53:20.760]youknow,scientistsaretheoriginal[00:53:22.560]skeptics.[00:53:24.000]Uh,scientistsbydefinitionare[00:53:26.120]skeptics.Wedo{n}^{\prime }tcometothetable[00:53:29.120]askingorsaying,Iwanttoprovethis.[00:53:33.320]Icometothetableasking,whatis[00:53:35.160]this?Andwhatcanexplainthis?[00:53:37.920]Debunkersarethepeoplewhowhothe[00:53:40.280]original[00:53:41.720]unscientists[00:53:43.600]thatcometothetablewantingtoprove[00:53:45.440]somethingaheadoftime.The{y}^{\prime }rethe[00:53:47.280]peoplewhoaredoctrinaire.The{y}^{\prime }rethe[00:53:49.520]peoplewho[00:53:51.400]le{t}^{\prime }ssayasaswewerediscussingthe[00:53:54.680]otherday,[00:53:56.320]um[00:53:57.800]the{y}^{\prime }recomingatitwithanorthodoxy[00:54:00.840]orle{t}^{\prime }ssayapriesthoodbutwithout[00:54:02.600]thebenefitofthetrainingthatpriests[00:54:04.760]gothroughforyearsanddecadestoat[00:54:08.120]leasthavesomeum[00:54:10.880]sociologicorspiritualunderstandingof[00:54:13.080]whythe{y}^{\prime }recomingtothisbeliefsystem[00:54:14.680]thattheyhave.[00:54:16.360]Umso,youknow,i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }s[00:54:20.080]IIwanttodouble-check.[00:54:22.160]AndIluckilyhaveenoughofthe[00:54:23.600]materialthatIcanhanditto10other[00:54:25.920]labstosay,"Wouldyoujustgoahead[00:54:27.640]andchecktheisotoperatiosformeto[00:54:29.600]makesurethatIdid{n}^{\prime }tmakesomesort[00:54:30.840]ofsystematicerror?"Youknow,maybe[00:54:33.040]theatomicprobetomographeris[00:54:35.160]measuringsomethinginawaytha{t}^{\prime }s[00:54:37.000]differentthananotherkindofmass[00:54:38.520]spectrometershowed.Andyouknow,i{t}^{\prime }s[00:54:40.320]relativelyeasyformetodothat.I{t}^{\prime }s[00:54:42.840]justi{t}^{\prime }sfindingthetime,findingthe[00:54:45.480]money,uhtryingtodecidewhereinthe[00:54:49.720]statusofofwhatneedstobedone[00:54:53.320]bothinmydayjobandle{t}^{\prime }ssaytheyou[00:54:56.000]know,mymymysidejobhere,whichis[00:54:58.800]certainlymorethanahobbyofyouknow,[00:55:01.080]whatwhatwhatdoesittaketogetit[00:55:02.560]done?[00:55:04.160]Um[00:55:05.320]andso,uh[00:55:07.240]youknow,I^{\prime }mprettysureofthe[00:55:08.800]results,but[00:55:10.600]beingsureisnot[00:55:13.160]somethingthatyetIcandowhereIcan[00:55:15.000]handittoanotherperson.Well,Ican[00:55:17.040]handittootherpeopleand{I}^{\prime }mgoing[00:55:18.400]to,butagain,Ineedtogettheuh[00:55:21.240]thesepostdocsonboardtosay,"Okay,[00:55:23.920]areyoureadytoputyournameonthis?"[00:55:26.120]Uhyouknow,i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }s[00:55:28.600]uhandactuallythe{y}^{\prime }vesaidyes.[00:55:31.200]Umso,i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }snotlikethe{y}^{\prime }re[00:55:33.360]the{y}^{\prime }reafraid.Umbutyouknow,III[00:55:36.520]ca{n}^{\prime }tjustgoandanddoitwithout[00:55:38.880]theirwithouttheirsay-so.Cuzi{t}^{\prime }s[00:55:41.920]franklywastheiridea,notmine.I[00:55:44.320]mean,I^{\prime }mjustthepurveyoroftheof[00:55:46.280]theresult,nottheoriginatorofthe[00:55:49.120]reasonwhy.But,butthe[00:55:51.880]thereasonwhyIbringthisupiscuz[00:55:53.600]whyi{t}^{\prime }ssoimportanttogetdatalike[00:55:55.920]thisoutlikeIdidwiththeum[00:55:58.840]withthewiththeCouncilBluffsiswhen[00:56:01.480]youputdataoutthereandyouaskand[00:56:04.600]yousay,"Her{e}^{\prime }sthedatahowi{t}^{\prime }s[00:56:05.720]collected.W{e}^{\prime }reprettysurewe[00:56:07.240]collectedittherightway."Whatyo{u}^{\prime }re[00:56:09.000]offeringupistheopportunityforother[00:56:10.840]peopletostepinandgivereasonswhy[00:56:13.480]thedataisthewayitis.[00:56:16.040]So,um[00:56:17.800]andtha{t}^{\prime }sthebestwaythatle{t}^{\prime }ssay[00:56:20.360]opensourcescienceisdone.[00:56:22.440]Uhandtha{t}^{\prime }sactuallythewaythat,you[00:56:24.040]know,academicsusuallyoperateisthey[00:56:25.840]putaresultout.Somebodysays,"Uh-uh,[00:56:27.840]Ido{n}^{\prime }tbelieveyouknow,her{e}^{\prime }sanother[00:56:29.120]wayoflookingatit.Her{e}^{\prime }sanotherset[00:56:31.200]ofequationsthatyoushouldhave[00:56:32.240]applied."Youknow,andsoyouhavethe[00:56:34.000]normalacademicdiscoursehopefully[00:56:36.440]withoutuh[00:56:38.200]toomuchuhthrowingofofof[00:56:41.200]ofdishes.Okay,soIwouldberemissif[00:56:43.960]Idid{n}^{\prime }tsaythatifyouguysare[00:56:45.480]correctaboutthis,thisisthisisa[00:56:47.440]reallyremarkablefinding.Yes?[00:56:49.440]>>Yes.Yes.Yeah.Wereitnotbeing[00:56:51.120]correct,itwouldbeextraordinary.[00:56:53.040]Yeah,itittotallyextraordinary[00:56:54.800]becauseImean,whatyo{u}^{\prime }resayingin[00:56:56.320]essence,and{I}^{\prime }msayingthisforthe[00:56:57.640]benefitofuhyouknow,theaudiencewho[00:57:00.000]Ithink,youknow,hasmostlytracked[00:57:01.960]butthe{y}^{\prime }llhavemissedsomesomepieces[00:57:03.840]hereandIcertainlyhaveasa[00:57:05.160]non-scientist.I^{\prime }ma[00:57:06.960]humanitiesuhsocialsciencesperson.[00:57:09.880]Umisthatyouyou[00:57:13.240]therewouldbeitwouldbevery[00:57:14.480]difficulttoexplaintheisotoperatios[00:57:17.040]youfoundbothinthemagnesiumandthe[00:57:18.960]siliconuhsamplesiftherewas{n}^{\prime }tthis[00:57:22.000]exploitationofaphysicalprincipleum[00:57:24.880]thatthatbywhich,youknow,youusing[00:57:27.840]thatasreference,youwouldbeum[00:57:30.360]bombardingtheseuhthesemetalswith,[00:57:34.640]uh,[00:57:35.400]high-intensityneutrinoradiation,[00:57:37.680]correct?[00:57:38.200]>>Mhm.Correct.Andanditwouldbejust[00:57:41.040]andyouwouldhavenonoexplanationfor[00:57:43.200]whythiswouldnaturallyoccur[00:57:44.800]otherwise.Correct.Yeah.Ther{e}^{\prime }sYeah,[00:57:48.040]ther{e}^{\prime }sthetheonlyotherwaytoget[00:57:50.280]theratios[00:57:52.000]areto[00:57:54.320]pre-purifythemintotheirindividual[00:57:58.920]ratiosandthenmixthemtogetheratthe[00:58:01.720]ratiosthatwefound.[00:58:03.400]But[00:58:05.000]whywouldyoumixthemtogetheratthe[00:58:06.680]Firstofall,whywouldyoumixthem[00:58:07.760]togetheratadifferentratioanyway?[00:58:09.280]So,tha{t}^{\prime }slikequestionnumberone.And[00:58:11.240]questionnumbertwoiswhywouldyoumix[00:58:12.720]themattheratiothatcouldbe[00:58:14.240]explainedbyneutronbombard?[00:58:16.800]Thatsomeprofessor30or60yearslater[00:58:20.240]wouldfigureout.[00:58:22.120]Right.Right.Thatthatwouldbevery[00:58:24.040]veryoddasyou[00:58:25.160]>>I{t}^{\prime }sodd.I{t}^{\prime }soddandi{t}^{\prime }s,youknow,[00:58:27.440]i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }sworthyofofWell,and[00:58:30.800]le{t}^{\prime }sle{t}^{\prime }sle{t}^{\prime }srulethatoutbecause[00:58:32.680]thatdoes{n}^{\prime }tmakesenseasan[00:58:33.720]explanation.Um,thethethelatterone.[00:58:36.920]So,soher{e}^{\prime }saafirstquestionandand[00:58:39.800]thisisgoingtosoundalittleoffthe[00:58:41.480]wall,uh,[00:58:43.320]maybeinitially,butbutIthink{I}^{\prime }mon[00:58:45.200]therighttrackwiththisis[00:58:48.040]youknow,ifle{t}^{\prime }ssayoncethisis[00:58:50.480]published[00:58:52.120]uh,youhaveasufficientnumberof[00:58:53.840]peoplewhowhoreplicatetheresultsor[00:58:56.320]theyfindsimilarresultswithother[00:58:57.960]materials[00:58:59.360]thatthatwouldtransformthislittle[00:59:02.160]cornerofscienceorthislittle,you[00:59:04.640]know,methodinsciencethatIthinkis[00:59:06.720]calledmaterialscharacterization[00:59:08.960]totoassumethattheremaybematerials[00:59:14.360]availableforanalysis[00:59:16.240]thatarenotsimplyartifactsofnature.[00:59:19.120]The{y}^{\prime }realsoartifactsofof,uh,[00:59:22.360]artifice,ofdesign,oftechnology.[00:59:25.440]Andyoudo{n}^{\prime }thavetosayanythingabout[00:59:26.960]theoriginsoforwhodidit.Yo{u}^{\prime }re[00:59:29.640]simplysayingsomeonedidit.Right.[00:59:31.880]>>Andi{t}^{\prime }sunlikelytobeusbecausewe[00:59:33.680]do{n}^{\prime }thavethetechniques.Correct.[00:59:36.080]Exactly.Andsotha{t}^{\prime }sthe[00:59:39.000]um[00:59:40.520]i{t}^{\prime }s[00:59:41.720]i{t}^{\prime }saboutasclosetoproofasyo{u}^{\prime }re[00:59:44.240]goingtoget.Theonlyotherproofthat[00:59:46.200]Iwould[00:59:47.920]umle{t}^{\prime }ssayfeelcomfortablewith[00:59:51.200]is[00:59:52.520]um[00:59:53.240]adifferentkindofmaterialwherethe[00:59:55.360]organizationoftheatoms[00:59:58.320]isatsuchalevelofcomplexity[01:00:01.160]uhandbondingstructuresthatuhnobody[01:00:05.960]onEarthcouldexplain[01:00:08.520]thecomplexity.[01:00:10.120]UhandyouknowtheIImeanIusefor[01:00:13.000]examplelifeasanexampleof[01:00:17.760]thetheultimatemachine.[01:00:20.480]Everyatom[01:00:22.120]ineverymoleculeofeveryyouknowor[01:00:25.480]everypieceofaprotein[01:00:27.280]issoredundantlymultifunctional[01:00:30.960]uhthat[01:00:33.080]uh[01:00:33.720]nothingshortofeitherasuper[01:00:35.600]intelligenceorevolution[01:00:38.440]whichcanachievesuperintelligence[01:00:40.320]levelsofcomplexity.[01:00:42.480]UmwitnessRichardDawkinsDawkinsthe[01:00:45.840]youknowtheumtheselfishgene[01:00:48.600]asanexample.[01:00:49.702]>>[snorts][01:00:50.000]>>Umortheblindwatchmaker.Bothofhis[01:00:51.880]booksareextraordinaryifyouwantto[01:00:53.560]getintothisareaandthinkaboutitis[01:00:56.160]youcanachieveseeminglyintelligent[01:00:58.960]design[01:01:00.320]simplyviaevolutionandtrialand[01:01:02.120]error.[01:01:03.480]Umsobutitwouldthatwouldbehard[01:01:07.720]thatlevelofcomplexitywouldbehard[01:01:09.680]toreplicate[01:01:11.440]inmaterialsdesign[01:01:13.680]becausethatwouldassumeliving[01:01:16.080]materialthathadtheabilityto[01:01:17.560]reproduceitself.[01:01:19.160]Oritwouldassumethatsomebodyknows[01:01:20.760]enoughabouthowtomakesomethingso[01:01:22.360]complexthatitcouldbe[01:01:24.400]functionalininalevelthatwedo{n}^{\prime }t.[01:01:26.360]AndAndthestepbackofthiswouldbe,[01:01:29.360]youknow,[01:01:30.280]humanseventuallyunderstood[01:01:32.600]inmaterialsdesignthethenotionof[01:01:36.040]putthismaterialnexttothismaterial[01:01:38.520]nexttothismaterialandnowyo{u}^{\prime }vegot[01:01:40.160]aadiodeoratransistor.[01:01:43.720]Um[01:01:44.880]thisisa[01:01:46.240]aresistor.ThisThesetwopiecesof[01:01:49.000]metalclosetoeachother[01:01:51.000]areacapacitorandcanholdacharge.[01:01:53.360]Putthesethingsalltogetherandyo{u}^{\prime }ve[01:01:54.480]gotaradio.[01:01:55.920]Umuh[01:01:57.440]or[01:01:59.240]acomputer.[01:02:00.480]Andsotheyouknow,theyouknow,from[01:02:03.560]thedaysthatIwasa[01:02:05.200]studentorIwasakidgoingaroundasa[01:02:08.760]Iwasapaperboy.OnThursdayswouldbe[01:02:11.560]trashday.[01:02:12.960]AndumIwouldnote[01:02:16.360]peoplewouldhavetheirtelevisionsets[01:02:18.760]thrownaway.Iwouldtakethetelevision[01:02:20.480]sethomeandIwouldtakeallthepieces[01:02:22.440]outoftheofthecircuitboardsbecause[01:02:24.840]Ithoughttheywerecool.Capacitorsand[01:02:26.800]alltherest.ButImean[01:02:28.520]Imeanthatwasbackwhenwehadvacuum[01:02:29.880]tubes,whichwereessentially[01:02:31.920]transistors.[01:02:33.400]Umbutw{e}^{\prime }veshrunk.[01:02:35.760]Andeveryerahasshrunkthemdownto[01:02:38.560]literallynanometersize.[01:02:40.760]Umyouknow,nearatomlevel[01:02:43.480]interactions.And1nanometeris10[01:02:45.800]angstroms.[01:02:47.040]1angstromifIifIwassaiditwas[01:02:49.320]basicallythedistancebetweentwo[01:02:50.520]atoms.Soourelectronicshavehave[01:02:53.920]gottendowntonearatomicresolution.[01:02:57.320]Butwhatwestilldoiswemostlystill[01:03:01.320]think[01:03:02.600]intermsofmodularity.[01:03:04.800]Mhm.[01:03:05.480]Thisisatransistor,tha{t}^{\prime }saresistor,[01:03:08.280]ther{e}^{\prime }sacapacitoror10other[01:03:10.720]functions.Imeani{t}^{\prime }sgonemuchfurther[01:03:12.280]thanjustthosesimpleideas.Um[01:03:15.400]allkindsofotherideasofcubits,[01:03:17.480]etc.,and[01:03:18.960]um[01:03:19.920]ghostlyparticlesthataremorelike[01:03:22.160]wavefunctionsthanthanthekindof[01:03:24.080]modularthinking.Butnowimagine[01:03:27.200]thatagaingo[01:03:29.800]amillionyearsahead[01:03:31.960]withwhereyo{u}^{\prime }vegotasuper[01:03:33.400]intelligencewhichis[01:03:35.760]umanAI[01:03:38.240]orabiologicalbeingwhichhasusedAI[01:03:40.880]toupgradeitself[01:03:44.120]uhintelyouknow,makeitmakeitmake[01:03:45.640]itsownintelligencegreater.[01:03:47.840]Umsothatitcouldkeepupwithitsown[01:03:49.160]AI.[01:03:50.680]Umandnowyoucanstarttothinkthat[01:03:54.200]itwouldmakematerialsthatwerethat[01:03:56.600]weremulti-functionalandmadeatalmost[01:03:59.000]thesamelevelofcomplexityasbiology.[01:04:02.200]Mhm.[01:04:03.080]Mhm.Andso,youknow,mygoalhasbeen[01:04:06.040]inlikethelastfewyearstobuildan[01:04:08.440]instrumentandw{e}^{\prime }realmostfinished[01:04:09.840]withit[01:04:10.800]thatwillbeabletotakeapartnearly[01:04:13.920]anymaterialattheatomiclevelwith[01:04:18.120]nearangstromlevelresolutionsuchthat[01:04:21.280]wecansay[01:04:22.880]well,Imean,ithasagreatutilityfor[01:04:24.640]mybiology[01:04:26.040]uhworkthatIwanttodocuzIwantto[01:04:27.480]dolookatthe3DstructureofDNAcuzI[01:04:29.720]thinktha{t}^{\prime }swheretherealcodeis.[01:04:31.680]Umbutitcouldalsobeusedfor[01:04:35.040]umlookingat[01:04:37.800]uh[01:04:41.000]somematerialthatsomebodymighthave[01:04:43.400]whichismadeatalevelofcomplexity[01:04:45.680]thatifyouwerejusttouse[01:04:47.960]toda{y}^{\prime }srandomtechniques,youjustsay,[01:04:49.680]"Oh,ther{e}^{\prime }sthismuchcarbon,thismuch[01:04:50.920]this[01:04:51.920]init."Asopposedto,"Her{e}^{\prime }swhere[01:04:53.760]thisis.Her{e}^{\prime }swherethatis.Her{e}^{\prime }s[01:04:55.200]wherethiswas.Her{e}^{\prime }sthebonding[01:04:56.320]structure."Andthenyouputthewhole[01:04:57.960]thingtogetherandyousay,"Well,this[01:04:59.680]isunlikeanythingw{e}^{\prime }veeverseen."[01:05:02.080]Andyouknow,unlikeanythingw{e}^{\prime }veever[01:05:04.040]seenyouimmediatelyhavetosay,"Well,[01:05:06.200]isthereanynaturalprocessthatwould[01:05:07.720]createit?"[01:05:09.560]Tha{t}^{\prime }sthefirstquestionyouwouldask.[01:05:11.320]Thesecondquestionyouwouldaskifyou[01:05:12.960]could[01:05:14.320]ityouknowreasonably[01:05:16.960]statethatallofthosethingswereoff[01:05:18.520]thetable,naturalis[01:05:21.400]okay,whatwoulditdo[01:05:24.360]ifIhadthesehere,thesehere,these[01:05:26.320]here,youknow,sothenyouwouldand[01:05:28.160]tha{t}^{\prime }stheotherreasonforsortofthe[01:05:29.480]open-sourcingofit.[01:05:31.160]Tha{t}^{\prime }sthereasonwhyyouwouldsay,[01:05:32.240]okay,well,her{e}^{\prime }sher{e}^{\prime }swhatitis.[01:05:34.840]I^{\prime }mnot[01:05:36.240]and{I}^{\prime }m{I}^{\prime }moftenpeopleareaccusingme[01:05:37.520]ofsaying,well,Gar{y}^{\prime }snota[01:05:38.160]metallurgist,howdarehe,youknow,do[01:05:40.280]metallurgy.Well,I^{\prime }mnot.I^{\prime }mjust[01:05:42.440]tellingyouwha{t}^{\prime }sthereandputtingit[01:05:44.640]outintotheworldandsaying,okay,[01:05:46.080]well,youtellme.[01:05:47.760]AndithadInotdonethatforinstance[01:05:49.680]withthemagnesiumratios,Iwould{n}^{\prime }t[01:05:52.880]havehadthesepeoplecometomeand[01:05:54.680]say,hey,youcouldexplainthese[01:05:56.560]magnesiumratiosbyneutronbombardment.[01:05:59.600]Oh,andbytheway,[01:06:01.320]youdid{n}^{\prime }tevenknowit,butyouknow,[01:06:03.680]youwereyouactuallyweremeasuring[01:06:05.680]siliconatthesametime[01:06:07.760]inthisorinfactyouweremeasuring[01:06:09.040]silicon,butthemagnesiumwasa[01:06:10.960]contaminant.[01:06:12.400]Uhatleastinyour,youknow,chainof[01:06:14.680]custody,[01:06:15.760]um[01:06:16.680]thesamethingthatcouldcreatethe[01:06:17.880]magnesiumratiosyousaw,isotope[01:06:20.120]ratios,isthesamelevelofradiation[01:06:22.960]thatwouldcause[01:06:24.560]thesilicon.So,i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }sitisan[01:06:27.320]iterativeprocessofunderstandingandI[01:06:29.480]oftensaythisisthatscienceisright[01:06:31.800]today,i{t}^{\prime }swrongtomorrow,buti{t}^{\prime }s[01:06:33.040]righterthenextdaybecauseyoulearned[01:06:34.800]whatwaswrong.Youlearnfrombeing[01:06:36.640]wrong.Yeah,ther{e}^{\prime }sarecursiveuh[01:06:38.880]processthere.Yeah.ButIIwantto[01:06:41.360]pointsomethingoutuhanditgoesback[01:06:43.320]tomymypointearlier.Imean,there[01:06:46.160]youknow,probablytheonlytimeyousee[01:06:48.600]uhscientificanalysisofthiskindum[01:06:52.080]whereyo{u}^{\prime }renotjusttryinginthis[01:06:53.680]casetocharacterizeamaterial,yo{u}^{\prime }re[01:06:55.240]tryingtolearnsomethingaboutumhow[01:06:58.640]uhthematerialismadeanduhorat[01:07:00.920]leastyo{u}^{\prime }reyo{u}^{\prime }reyo{u}^{\prime }remaking[01:07:02.480]inferencesaboutthis,howthematerial[01:07:04.320]ismadeandpossiblythenatureofwho[01:07:07.320]madeit.Theonlyothertimeyouwould[01:07:09.520]seethiskindofthingisprobably[01:07:11.720]betweenintelligenceserviceswhen[01:07:13.720]the{y}^{\prime }restealingeachothe{r}^{\prime }s[01:07:14.760]technologies.[01:07:15.720]>>Right.[01:07:16.200]>>Andthe{y}^{\prime }reattemptingtoreverse[01:07:17.600]engineer.Imean,IknewaImean,I^{\prime }ve[01:07:19.720]toldyouthisbefore.IIknowan[01:07:21.960]anthropologistwhopriortobecominga[01:07:24.320]culturalanthropologistwasinthe[01:07:26.360]SovietUnionintheSovietspaceagency.[01:07:29.760]Andhewasaphysicistthereandandhe[01:07:31.880]wasinvolvedinreverseengineering[01:07:35.800]stolenUStechnology.Mhm.Andheand[01:07:39.480]andhesaid,youknow,weweacquired[01:07:42.280]averyearlyspeechsynthesisdevice.[01:07:44.960]Ah.Umandwecould{n}^{\prime }tfigureout,he[01:07:47.200]said,youknow,howtodoeverything.We[01:07:49.200]wewereabletoreplicateit.Uhbutwe[01:07:51.520]could{n}^{\prime }tfigureouthowthephonemes[01:07:53.160]weregenerated.So,webuiltourown[01:07:55.600]versionofit,butitspokeumitspoke[01:07:58.440]RussianwithawithanAmericanaccent.[01:08:01.120]Itcould{n}^{\prime }tyouknow.[01:08:02.880]UmbutIthinkofthatrightnowbecause[01:08:05.520]Iyouknow,yo{u}^{\prime }redoingsomethingvery[01:08:07.440]similarhereexceptyouyoudo{n}^{\prime }tknow[01:08:10.160]thenatureofwhomadeit.Infact,if[01:08:12.280]itwas{n}^{\prime }t[01:08:12.640]>>Right.itmightbeants.[01:08:14.360]So,doesthatsenddoesthatsendyour[01:08:15.920]mindrushingasyo{u}^{\prime }redoingthiskind[01:08:18.480]ofresearch?Yeah,andyeah,Imean,I[01:08:20.920]I^{\prime }vespokentomaybei{t}^{\prime }sthesame[01:08:23.040]personabout[01:08:25.080]otherthingsthatwereatthetimesuh[01:08:28.480]uhyouknow,airliftedoutofthemiddle[01:08:30.720]oftheSovietUnionduringanoperation.[01:08:33.080]Andtheysaid,youknow,thiswas[01:08:34.240]workingbyprincipleswedid{n}^{\prime }t[01:08:35.440]understand.Oh,interesting.Itdid{n}^{\prime }t[01:08:37.839]meanthatitwasalien.Itjustmeant[01:08:40.960]thattheywerestartingwithdifferent[01:08:43.240]physicsassumptionsandhadcomeupwith[01:08:45.600]somethingthatdidsomethingdifferent.[01:08:46.960]Imean,i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }sinterestinghow[01:08:48.680]scienceandevenphilosophy,asyou[01:08:52.160]know,andanthropologygoesisthat,you[01:08:54.839]know,youyougodowntheserabbitholes[01:08:57.560]thatyoukindofforget[clearsthroat][01:08:59.520]anassumptionthatwasmadesolongago[01:09:01.319]thathadyougoneadifferentdirection,[01:09:03.440]youmighthaveendedupinadifferent[01:09:04.680]placealtogether.[01:09:06.319]UmIactuallyfoundthethetheratios[01:09:09.920]andthefit,ifyouwantmetoswitchto[01:09:11.960]it.Yeah,yeah,please.Yeah.Um[01:09:16.040]Souhshare.Okay,canyouseethis?[01:09:21.640]Isthatshowingup?Yeah,thereitis.[01:09:24.640]Soum[01:09:26.279]youknow,we[01:09:27.759]westartedwiththenumbers[01:09:31.680]hereofthethisisthemoistureA[01:09:34.720]ratiosandhowfarofftheywere.[01:09:37.600]Umandthenamodelwasdevelopedofthe[01:09:41.520]neutronabsorption.Thisisnotmywork.[01:09:43.799]Thisistheworkofofofothers.[01:09:46.480]Umandthenwhatthetemperature[01:09:49.480]essentiallywasofwhatwouldbe[01:09:51.279]achieved,butthekey[01:09:53.480]Thisisjustforthemagnesium.Thekey[01:09:55.240]thinghereisthatexposureofthe[01:09:59.800]magnesiumofthiscaseisthesilicon.[01:10:02.600]Umisthatthenaturalratiooftheum[01:10:06.840]ofthe28goesdown[01:10:09.920]whilethe30[01:10:11.920]thethethe29isbothgoingdown[01:10:15.240]becausei{t}^{\prime }sbeingconvertedto30,but[01:10:17.480]i{t}^{\prime }sgoingupbecausei{t}^{\prime }sbeing[01:10:19.640]convertedfrom28to29.Soyouhaveyou[01:10:22.440]havethiskindofinandoutflow.[01:10:25.440]Uhandthatatthisexactpointhereof[01:10:29.640]timeversusexposure,yougetexactly[01:10:32.840]theratio.Thefactthatitconverges[01:10:35.440]acrossthislineatthisratiosaidand[01:10:38.400]thisandthiswastheobservedamount.[01:10:41.200]Theobservedratiossaysthatthe[01:10:43.320]cross-section[01:10:44.760]predictsthetheoutcome.[01:10:48.040]Andthenwewentbackanddidthesame[01:10:49.760]thingthenwiththemagnesiumandit[01:10:52.520]comesclosetothesameneutronflux[01:10:55.800]fit.Andsothe[01:10:58.560]the[01:10:59.400]theonlywaysyougetthatlevelisthat[01:11:01.320]one,you[01:11:02.600]exposeittoahydrogenbomb,[01:11:06.160]whichumwouldofcourse[01:11:08.960]vaporizethematerial,soitwas{n}^{\prime }ta[01:11:11.280]hydrogenbomb.[01:11:12.760]Youcouldputitintoanuclearreactor,[01:11:15.440]whichhasneutronflux.[01:11:17.280]Umbuttheyouknow,basicallytheonly[01:11:20.200]placeswhereyoucoulddothiswouldbe[01:11:21.800]theOakRidgeNationalLabHighFlux[01:11:24.480]Reactor,[01:11:25.680]umwhichwas{n}^{\prime }treallyoperableuntil[01:11:27.920]1965.[01:11:29.800]Umanditwouldrequire,youknow,an[01:11:32.280]extraordinaryamountofflux.[01:11:34.440]Umorbombardingit,youknow,would[01:11:37.440]require[01:11:39.240]uh[01:11:40.520]10tothe7thtothe8thyearsof[01:11:42.200]irradiation.[01:11:43.760]Okay,sotha{t}^{\prime }s10[01:11:47.000]billionyears?No,10tothe8th,a100[01:11:49.280]millionyears.[01:11:51.440]700millionyears,aboutabillionyears[01:11:53.320]ofirradiationofthisamountofumof[01:11:56.000]whatitisthatwecanreasonably[01:11:57.240]produce.So,um[01:12:01.320]Yeah.So,thenthe[01:12:03.400]thelastpartofthisis,youknow,and[01:12:05.200]thisisagain,someon{e}^{\prime }sgoingtocopy[01:12:06.560]thisnow,probablyputitontheweb,[01:12:07.840]butum[01:12:09.240]thethelastpartofitisum[01:12:12.160]So,yo{u}^{\prime }resayingififthisisrealIf[01:12:14.880]thisisreal,thenumyouknow,you[01:12:18.520]mightconstrue[01:12:21.080]thatuh[01:12:22.400]i{t}^{\prime }s[01:12:23.920]onewaybywhichthese[01:12:27.360]umle{t}^{\prime }ssay[01:12:29.000]craftsfunction.[01:12:30.920]Andthisis,le{t}^{\prime }ssay,the[01:12:34.720]uhthecoatingaround[01:12:37.880]theenergyproductionsystemthatata[01:12:40.160]certainpointisusedupandnolonger[01:12:43.080]capableof,youknow,containing[01:12:46.120]whateveritisthatismeanttocontain,[01:12:48.080]andsothenisoffloaded.[01:12:51.400]Becausei{t}^{\prime }s[01:12:52.640]exhaust,likewedowithourcars.[01:12:57.120]Andandyouallandyoualsothinkthat[01:12:58.880]because[01:13:00.200]uhnotinthisUberTubacase,butin[01:13:02.400]thecaseofaUAPeventthattookplace[01:13:05.520]uhwithanumberofclosewitnessesin[01:13:08.000]Iowainainatownoraareacalled[01:13:11.280]CouncilBluffs.Mhm.Uhthewitnesses[01:13:13.800]reportreportedseeinguh[01:13:16.840]moltenmetalbeingejecteduh[01:13:19.720]froma[01:13:20.760]IthinkaclassicsauceroruhLikea[01:13:23.520]veryaveryodd-lookingtrapezoidal[01:13:25.840]object.ItmeansIactually[01:13:27.600]IIIbutwiththatwasflashingandand[01:13:31.320]youknow,Iknowpeoplearetryingto[01:13:32.240]explainitawayasthermiteetc.I{t}^{\prime }s[01:13:34.360]notthermitecuzitdoes{n}^{\prime }thave[01:13:36.240]aluminumhydroxideorthekindof[01:13:38.440]byproductsthatyouwouldexpecttohave[01:13:40.760]cuzIlookedatthatandlookedforthat[01:13:42.440]directly.Uhi{t}^{\prime }snotthere.Umandthen[01:13:45.480]interestinglybecauseIspokeaboutit[01:13:46.960]ontheJoeRoganshow,umawitnesswho[01:13:50.120]hadnotcomeforward[01:13:51.720]uhbasicallywrotemeanemailandsaid,[01:13:53.600]"Hey,Iwanttotalktoyou.I^{\prime }mlike83[01:13:55.720]yearsold.Iwanttotellyouwhatit[01:13:57.440]wasthatIsawandwhereIwasatthat[01:14:00.000]whenIsawit."[01:14:01.640]Uh[01:14:02.280]andumyouknow,andeverythinghesaid[01:14:05.240]corroboratedwithyouknow,theprior[01:14:07.640]witnesses.Uh[01:14:09.440]andheandhisbrothercameonandumhe[01:14:12.800]said,"Ijustwanttogetthisonthe[01:14:13.840]record."AndsoIactuallygotJacques[01:14:16.680]onthephonewithmeontheZoom[01:14:19.680]uhwithmetohelpsortofquestionthe[01:14:22.000]guybecauseoneofthethingsIlearned[01:14:23.720]fromJacquesandthatJacquesdidvery[01:14:25.760]wellinanumberofincidents.For[01:14:27.360]instance,the[01:14:28.680]umtheBrazilian[01:14:31.320]um[01:14:32.000]eventsuhwheretribespeoplewere[01:14:34.880]villagepeoplewereum[01:14:37.200]wereuhwhatwasit?ThetheColares[01:14:39.240]eventswereseeminglyattacked.He[01:14:42.440]literallywentallthewayouttothe[01:14:43.760]middleofBraziltotolittleyouknow,[01:14:46.560]villageuh[01:14:48.160]areauhatthemouthoftheAmazonuh[01:14:51.240]anddidperson-to-personinterviewscuz[01:14:53.640]hesaysyougetsomuchmoreoutof[01:14:55.720]actuallyhearingitfromthepeopleon[01:14:57.200]theground.[01:14:58.880]UmandsoIwantedtowatchhis[01:15:01.440]technique[01:15:02.760]ashedidit.[01:15:04.200]Umyouknow,anotherexampleIcangive[01:15:07.160]you,whichIthinkis[01:15:08.880]whichisreallygoodis{I}^{\prime }vegotnow[01:15:10.880]here[01:15:12.160]upumisthe[01:15:15.680]AndI{I}^{\prime }veshownthisumIthink[01:15:17.840]recentlyatthe[01:15:20.120]um[01:15:23.200]Isthatshowing?Yeah.[01:15:25.040]Umsothisisabasicallyawayofof[01:15:29.280]lookingattheattheumorientationof[01:15:32.760]crystalgrainsuh[01:15:34.840]andumi{t}^{\prime }sbasicallyaawayofof[01:15:38.480]puttingina[01:15:39.800]anorganizedbeamoflightthatifthe[01:15:42.880]crystalgrainsofthemagnesiumareina[01:15:45.120]certainorientation,theywillreflect[01:15:46.920]themoffinonedirectionversusanother[01:15:49.320]direction.Andwhatwecandoisbased[01:15:51.760]onthedirectionthatthe{y}^{\prime }recoming[01:15:53.120]off,uhwecancolorthegrainsin[01:15:57.200]differentways.[01:15:58.680]Umand[01:16:01.160]so[01:16:02.200]thefirstthingyouseeisyouhave[01:16:03.400]thesecolumnarmagnesiumandmagnesium[01:16:06.960]oxidegrains.Thesecondthingthatyou[01:16:09.880]seearetheseblacklinesinbetween[01:16:13.040]uhwhichiswherethebismuthare.[01:16:15.200]Sowhatdoesthissay?Well,firstof[01:16:17.640]all,itrulesouttraditionalhuman[01:16:20.560]processingevents,whichwouldbe[01:16:22.000]rolling[01:16:23.600]uh[01:16:24.840]umdeposition,whereyouwouldbasically[01:16:26.720]deposititandthenyouwouldroll[01:16:27.960]somethingovertoflattenitcuzyou[01:16:29.600]would{n}^{\prime }tgetthecolumnsinthis[01:16:31.400]direction.Now,maybeagain,maybesome[01:16:34.520]metallurgistwoulduhfromwatchingthis[01:16:38.000]comeandsay,"Well,Gary,yo{u}^{\prime }rewrong.[01:16:39.960]Her{e}^{\prime }sawaythatsomethinglikethis[01:16:41.320]couldbedone.AndIwouldwelcomethat.[01:16:43.520]Um[01:16:44.760]that.But,youknow,ournextstepis[01:16:47.080]actuallytolookattheinterfacehere.[01:16:49.160]Toaskquestionsaboutwha{t}^{\prime }sthe[01:16:50.480]organizationofthebismuthhere.But,[01:16:52.720]asitturnsout,theindependentofwhat[01:16:56.160]themagnesiumisdoing,[01:16:58.120]uhther{e}^{\prime }sauniformityofhowthe[01:17:00.360]bismuthislaiddown.[01:17:02.080]Andthatther{e}^{\prime }s,withoutgoingIca{n}^{\prime }t[01:17:04.200]gointoitrightnowcuzw{e}^{\prime }restill[01:17:05.640]doingallthecalculations,butther{e}^{\prime }s[01:17:07.440]somethingveryinterestingaboutwhere[01:17:09.040]thatmagnesiumisandthatthebismuth[01:17:11.120]isandandandtheanditsuniformity[01:17:13.640]andthewidthofofthatthere.So,you[01:17:16.680]know,ongoingwork.So,I^{\prime }mfrankly{I}^{\prime }m[01:17:20.160]justgoingtosayit,SeanKirkpatric{k}^{\prime }s[01:17:21.880]explanationthatthiscomesfroma[01:17:23.960]missilecasingisfranklypreposterous.[01:17:27.960]So,hecangotoStevenGreenstreetif[01:17:30.160]hewantsandsaywhateverhewants.I{t}^{\prime }s[01:17:32.720]justpreposterousandh{e}^{\prime }sjustbeing[01:17:35.720]silly.[01:17:37.040]Umso,uh[01:17:39.400]explainthistome,Sean.[01:17:42.360]Yeah,butdo{n}^{\prime }tpleasedo{n}^{\prime }tgoto[01:17:43.800]StevenGreenstreetbecauseweknowthat[01:17:45.640]h{e}^{\prime }salready,[01:17:47.160]youknow,[01:17:48.240]notreallyajournalist.[01:17:50.080]Umso,uhImean,IIIle{t}^{\prime }shavea[01:17:53.480]reasonableconversationaboutit.Le{t}^{\prime }s[01:17:55.680]not,youknow,[01:17:57.320]le{t}^{\prime }snotuseintermediaries[01:18:00.520]likethat.[01:18:01.720]Uhthatwouldbemy[01:18:03.360]request.Now,thatthat[01:18:05.800]theimageswehaveherearefromuh[01:18:08.960]samplesfromtheCouncilBluffs[01:18:10.800]incident.No,thisisthethisisthe[01:18:12.720]Ar{t}^{\prime }sPartsinstrument.Okay.Yeah,and[01:18:15.320]youyoumightsayawordaboutabout[01:18:17.080]whatAr{t}^{\prime }sPartsis.[01:18:18.280]>>Yeah,theArtAr{t}^{\prime }sPartswasumyou[01:18:20.480]know,ArtBelluhandsomebodycalledup[01:18:22.760]andsaidthatthiswassupposedly,[01:18:25.120]allegedly,[01:18:26.480]uhapiecefromtheRoswellcrash.Now,[01:18:29.240]Ido{n}^{\prime }tknowwhethertha{t}^{\prime }strueornot.[01:18:30.720]IIdo{n}^{\prime }tknowwhatitis.Um[01:18:33.160]uhandthenitwasdeliveredtoArtand[01:18:35.520]thenArtmade,[01:18:37.520]youknow,itwasalargepiece.Itwas[01:18:38.760]brokenupintoseveralsmallerpieces[01:18:40.560]andgivenouttomultiplepeople.And[01:18:42.560]thisparticularpiececamethrough[01:18:45.760]aprofessorattheUniversityof[01:18:47.680]Northwesternwh{o}^{\prime }dbeeninvolvedinthis[01:18:50.080]areaformanyyears[01:18:53.200]andsaidhereGary,I^{\prime }mnotcapableof[01:18:55.000]doinganythingmorewiththisifyo{u}^{\prime }d[01:18:56.320]likeit.JacquessaysIshouldgivethis[01:18:59.320]toyou.[01:19:00.400]And[01:19:02.720]andsobutthisisthesamepiecethat[01:19:06.240]was[01:19:07.760]partofthetothestars[01:19:09.880]analysis[01:19:11.640]thatHalPuthoffandEricDavisetc.had[01:19:15.240]allbeeninvolvedwithandIwas[01:19:16.320]involvedwithintheearlydays.[01:19:18.280]Andthenhadbeensentactuallytothe[01:19:21.000]governmentforanalysis.Andtheydida[01:19:24.080]prettydecentjobattheanalysis[01:19:26.880]finally,thefinalreportthatIhad[01:19:28.920]beengiven.Butthenthethethesummary[01:19:31.080]judgmentfromDr.Kirkpatrickthatthis[01:19:34.640]wasa[01:19:36.600]ballisticmissilecasingjustdoes{n}^{\prime }t[01:19:39.280]holduptoWhywouldyoumakeamissile[01:19:41.840]casinglikethat?[01:19:43.680]Youknow,Imeanfirstofalli{t}^{\prime }sjust[01:19:45.320]>>andfillusinaboutthat.Imeanwhat[01:19:46.960]whataboutthiswouldbeveryunusual[01:19:49.080]foramissilecasing?I^{\prime }veheardthat[01:19:50.520]fromyou.[01:19:51.240]>>tootoofragile.Andthenwhywouldyou[01:19:53.800]makecolumnar[01:19:55.520]aluminumImeanmagnesiumoxide?Tha{t}^{\prime }s[01:19:59.120]notverystructurallystable.Itwould[01:20:01.520]itwouldblowupbeforeitevenleftthe[01:20:02.920]tubeattheaccelerations[01:20:05.000]>>Okay,sosoi{t}^{\prime }sactuallythisiswhy[01:20:07.080]yousayi{t}^{\prime }spreposterous.Yeahandand[01:20:09.080]andandwhywouldyouwhywouldyou[01:20:11.040]layerbismuthbetweenthose[01:20:15.880]umcolumnarmagnesiumoxides[01:20:19.360]foramissilecasing?Itjustdoes{n}^{\prime }t[01:20:23.600]justdoes{n}^{\prime }tImean[01:20:25.520]maybetherearemethodsandreasonswhy[01:20:28.280]but[01:20:29.680]itjustdoes{n}^{\prime }titjustdoes{n}^{\prime }tseemto[01:20:31.800]holdwateratfirstblush.So,I^{\prime }mhappy[01:20:34.240]tobetoldthat{I}^{\prime }mwrong.[01:20:36.320]Tellmewhy{I}^{\prime }mwrong.[01:20:38.400]Well,IwanttoIwanttoyouknow[01:20:40.400]followuponthatthat[01:20:42.360]youknowprovocationtopotential[01:20:44.200]criticsyoumadebybyshiftinggearsa[01:20:47.000]littlebitandandtalkingtoyouabout[01:20:50.120]youknowwhatwhatpotentiallyisthe[01:20:51.720]tragedyofthefactthatscientists[01:20:53.600]nevertookUAPandUFOseriously.And[01:20:56.800]theenormousopportunitythereisif[01:20:59.560]scientistsbegantodoactualscienceon[01:21:02.760]thisbecauseIthinkyouknowasw{e}^{\prime }ve[01:21:05.120]beentalkingyouknownotthefirsttime[01:21:07.400]i{t}^{\prime }soccurredtomebutIstillhave[01:21:08.960]feltitverystronglywhilew{e}^{\prime }vebeen[01:21:11.280]talkingisthati{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }s[01:21:14.920]itjusthowmuchwedo{n}^{\prime }tknowbecause[01:21:17.920]theonlythingthatwasdonegenerally[01:21:19.640]withUAPwaskindofforensic[01:21:21.600]investigation.Youdid{n}^{\prime }thave[01:21:24.920]youknowkindofnormalscienceinthis[01:21:26.480]sensegoingon.[01:21:28.160]And[01:21:29.400]Ithinkthatyouknowweknowwehave[01:21:31.920]remarkablecolleaguesandfriendsfrom[01:21:34.480]thenaturalsciences[01:21:36.480]BeatriceUriasKevinKnuthHalPuthoff[01:21:40.840]EricDavis[01:21:42.240]youknowagrowingnumberbutthe{y}^{\prime }re[01:21:44.320]stilljustahandfulthatactuallydo[01:21:46.600]scientificworkonthis.Whatdoyou[01:21:49.280]thinkyouknowwewouldstarttolearn[01:21:51.680]ifwehadnotjustsomedozensof[01:21:53.720]sciencebutweasscientistsbut[01:21:55.440]thousandsrighttakingtakingseriously[01:21:58.600]UAPeventsanddoingthingsliketaking[01:22:02.520]metalfoundatthethesitesorlooking[01:22:05.080]attreebarkthatmighthavebeen[01:22:07.240]radiated.[01:22:08.680]Whatwhatsortsofthingsmightwe[01:22:10.600]learn?Whatwhatarethequestions?[01:22:12.520]Well,Ithink[01:22:15.000]Well,theenergyrequirementsandthe[01:22:18.360]um[01:22:19.600]boththeenergyrequirementsandthe[01:22:22.880]umthewhywouldsuchathinghappen[01:22:27.120]arethe[01:22:28.760]aretheopenopportunities.[01:22:31.280]Butthenitsays,"Okay,well,howwould[01:22:33.160]youcontainsuchanenergysourcein[01:22:36.360]suchalimitedspace[01:22:38.520]withoutitbasicallybecomingthenext[01:22:41.560]ThirdMile[01:22:42.880]islandandmeltingintotheground?"[01:22:45.880]Right?Imean,ititmeansthatwhatever[01:22:47.920]theseenergysourcesareare[01:22:50.400]sufficientlycontainedandmobile[01:22:53.320]uh[01:22:53.960]thatitneitherhurtsthe[01:22:56.560]peoplewhoarenearby,[01:22:58.560]inthecraft,[01:22:59.920]umorcanbeliftedupandmovedfrom[01:23:02.320]oneplacetoanother[01:23:04.040]uhratherthanjustbeingumsomething[01:23:06.720]thatwouldmeltintosludgeuh[01:23:09.080]intotheground.So,youknow,[01:23:11.600]Imean,thissortofbringsupa[01:23:12.920]slightlydifferentpointis[01:23:14.960]I^{\prime }mlessinterestedinwhotheyare[01:23:18.800]whatthesethingsare[01:23:20.320]uhmeaningle{t}^{\prime }sassignapersonalityto[01:23:23.320]thembecauseIdid{n}^{\prime }tbecuzIdid{n}^{\prime }t[01:23:24.960]immediatelyassignintent.[01:23:28.080]I^{\prime }mlessinterestedintheanthropic[01:23:30.240]intentthanIaminthemechanical[01:23:32.800]capability.[01:23:34.560]Becausethemechanicalcapability,if[01:23:36.600]ther{e}^{\prime }sstillanintentbehind[01:23:38.120]mechanicalcapability,whichiswhichis[01:23:40.560]whatwasthismeanttodo?[01:23:42.720]IsitIsthisIsthistheirequivalent[01:23:45.040]ofamicrowave[01:23:46.840]oruhyouknow,aatrashbin[01:23:50.360]orisittheirinterdimensionalportal[01:23:52.840]jetportalgenerator[01:23:54.720]orisit,youknow,[01:23:56.520]themotivethethemotiveforcethat[01:23:58.360]theyusetogofrom[01:24:01.280]heretothere,youknow,maybeonething[01:24:03.880]createsthefieldthatallowsthemtobe[01:24:05.920]essentiallyindependentofuniversal[01:24:07.960]constraintsandtheotheristhemotive[01:24:09.720]force.[01:24:11.320]Allofthesethingsneedtobe[01:24:12.280]consideredifwelookatwhatandwe[01:24:14.520]believethat[01:24:16.240]whatweseeallegedlyallegedly[01:24:19.080]is[01:24:20.240]ismotivatedbyprincipleswethinkwe[01:24:23.760]understandinthisuniverse.[01:24:26.080]Asopposedtosomethingthat{I}^{\prime }vesaid,[01:24:27.600]whichiskindofakintosomethingthat[01:24:29.720]um[01:24:31.240]JacquesVall\acute{e}esaidabout,youknow,the[01:24:33.080]sortofthepuppeteerapproachisifyou[01:24:35.920]thinkofitinadifferentway,you[01:24:37.920]couldimaginethatitisamaterial[01:24:41.160]projectionintoourrealityfromanother[01:24:44.560]place[01:24:46.040]thatissortoftheenergytomoveitis[01:24:49.120]nothere.Theenergytomoveitisin[01:24:51.880]the93rddimension.[01:24:54.000]Right?Andtheni{t}^{\prime }sbeingmovedlikea[01:24:55.800]puppetfromsomewhereelse,buttous3D[01:25:00.320]or4Dhumanswithtimeitlookslike[01:25:03.720]i{t}^{\prime }smovingextraordinarily,whereas[01:25:06.280]i{t}^{\prime }sreallybeingheldlikeonatether[01:25:09.240]fromelsewhereandmovedaroundtofool[01:25:11.520]themonkeysintothinkingthatther{e}^{\prime }s[01:25:13.600]somethingelsegoingon.So,youImean,[01:25:15.640]youhavetokeepallofthesethingsin[01:25:17.240]mindwhenyo{u}^{\prime }retryingtoassignblame[01:25:21.600]orreasonforwhatitisthatyouthink[01:25:24.960]yo{u}^{\prime }re[01:25:26.040]yo{u}^{\prime }relookingatandandthewhyofit.[01:25:28.800]Yeah,alongthoselinessomeoneweboth[01:25:31.280]knowwho,youknow,hasbeenvery[01:25:33.800]tight-lippedcomesoutofcomesoutof[01:25:36.320]government,comesoutof[01:25:38.200]intelligence,buthasbeenvery[01:25:39.600]tight-lippedaboutwhathemayormay[01:25:41.120]notknowfromhistimeingovernment.Um[01:25:44.560]oncesaidtome,well,youknow,the[01:25:46.480]problemwiththewaywespeculateand[01:25:50.560]eventrytoreasonaboutostensibly[01:25:53.080]recoveredtechnologyandvehiclesis[01:25:55.720]thatwewethinkw{e}^{\prime }relookingatthe[01:25:57.800]wholething,butther{e}^{\prime }ssomethinglike[01:26:00.160]engineeringin[01:26:03.200]dimensions.IIwanttobecarefulwith[01:26:05.120]thatterm,butdimensionsorle{t}^{\prime }ssay[01:26:06.920]spacesthatyouknow,wedo{n}^{\prime }tperceive[01:26:09.360]andwedo{n}^{\prime }thaveinstrumentaccessto[01:26:11.560]and[01:26:13.280]andsotherecouldbeawholedimension[01:26:16.120]ofengineeringthatumis{n}^{\prime }tyo{u}^{\prime }renot[01:26:19.160]perceiving[01:26:20.400]andyouthinkyo{u}^{\prime }restudyingthewhole[01:26:22.120]object.[01:26:22.800]>>Right.Right.Andtha{t}^{\prime }skindofina[01:26:24.320]waywhat{I}^{\prime }msayingisthatyoucouldbe[01:26:26.600]creatingsomethingorworkingwith[01:26:28.160]somethingthatactuallyhasamotivating[01:26:29.640]forcetha{t}^{\prime }selsewhere.[01:26:31.520]Umyouknow,andandyouknow,Igeta[01:26:34.280]lotofmyinspirationfromliterally[01:26:36.760]sciencefictionwhere[01:26:39.400]authorsofuhyouknow,thebestofthem[01:26:43.680]umwriteaboutatleastonmyinterest[01:26:46.560]iswriteabouttechnologies[01:26:48.640]uhthateven30,40yearsagowere[01:26:52.040]consideredextraordinary.Imean,Isaac[01:26:53.880]Asimovbeingprobablyoneofthebest.[01:26:56.040]Youknow,andhisthelawsofrobotics.[01:26:58.280]Andherewearelivinginit.[01:27:00.080]Youknow,itonlytookus[01:27:02.040]youknow,almostyouknow,maybele{t}^{\prime }s[01:27:03.600]say80yearstogettowhereandalmost[01:27:06.040]beyondwhereuhIsaacAsimovwas[01:27:09.040]imagining.[01:27:10.280]Butum[01:27:11.640]youknow,aalotoftheseideasof[01:27:13.760]nanofabricationetc.uhareallbecoming[01:27:17.680]real.[01:27:18.800]UhandImean,ther{e}^{\prime }salreadyefforts[01:27:22.520]intheUnitedStatesandelsewhere,[01:27:24.520]Chinaetc.to[01:27:26.960]printandorganizematterattheatomic[01:27:29.520]level.[01:27:30.760]Imean,wecanprintthingspractically[01:27:32.480]attheatomiclevel.Umweca{n}^{\prime }tbond[01:27:35.240]themintherightway.ButevenIcan[01:27:37.880]starttothinkaboutwaysthatyoumight[01:27:40.320]youknow,magicallymaketwothingsthat[01:27:43.200]arenexttoeachotherchangethelocal[01:27:45.920]electronicconfigurationsuchthatit[01:27:48.400]wouldprefertobondinthefollowing[01:27:50.240]way.Imean,chemistsdothatliterally[01:27:52.400]everyday.[01:27:53.920]Imean,theysetupsyntheticreactions[01:27:55.720]tocauselocalbondingstructuresto[01:27:57.880]occur.Andtha{t}^{\prime }sbeenorganic[01:27:59.040]chemistry.[01:28:00.200]Theourwholepharmaceuticalindustryis[01:28:01.720]builtonthat.[01:28:03.360]Umand[01:28:04.400]>>Yeah,andIIthinkIthinkoneofthe[01:28:05.680]problemsenshrinedinvisionwhatwould[01:28:07.880]actuallybegoingonwiththisthisuh,[01:28:10.320]technologyorthesematerialsthatthat[01:28:12.880]arelikelynottobeofhumanorigin[01:28:15.480]isthatmostofus,Icancountmyself[01:28:17.880]uh,herearedealingwithapictureof[01:28:20.200]theuniversethatw{e}^{\prime }vegottenfromvery[01:28:22.600]outdatedscience.Mhm.Because,you[01:28:25.200]know,eventhepictureoftheuniverse[01:28:27.160]yougetfromneuroscience[01:28:29.120]i{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }sgoingtobeverydifferentuh,[01:28:32.040]thanwhatyougotfromanaccountofuh,[01:28:34.680]biologyinthe1980sorsomething,[01:28:37.200]right?Likepre-syntheticbiology[01:28:40.160]pretheideaneuro[01:28:41.960]thethethediscoveryinneuroscience[01:28:44.040]thatthebrainisuh,youknow,[01:28:45.920]potentiallymorecomplexthanthe[01:28:47.640]universeasweknowit.Um,youknow,[01:28:50.320]andandweknowlessaboutit.Um,and[01:28:53.560]andthenpretheideathatum,theway[01:28:56.720]youneedtounderstand,if{I}^{\prime }vegotthis[01:28:58.440]right,Gary,thewayyouneedto[01:28:59.600]understandbothinorganicandorganic[01:29:01.920]materialsisnotthroughasimple[01:29:04.440]accountofofchemistryorevengenetics[01:29:07.480]thatyouwouldhavegottenuh,youknow,[01:29:09.960]priortosay20yearsago.Uh,butthat[01:29:12.480]yo{u}^{\prime }redealingwithalevelof[01:29:13.600]complexity,ofarticulation,ofuh,you[01:29:17.840]know,maybespontaneous[01:29:19.560]self-organization[01:29:21.400]uh,ofsomeagentialfabricationatthe[01:29:24.120]levelofmaterialsthatthatreally,[01:29:28.200]youknow,goesbeyondtheideathatuh,[01:29:30.320]yo{u}^{\prime }rejustputtinguh,youknow,atomic[01:29:32.720]likeparts,atomicparts,atomicinthe[01:29:35.280]metaphysicalsensejusttogether.[01:29:37.800]>>Yeah,thatyo{u}^{\prime }rejustdealingwith[01:29:39.040]aggregates.Right.Yeah.[01:29:41.280]>>Right.Yeah,ther{e}^{\prime }sather{e}^{\prime }sagestalt[01:29:44.120]totryingtounderstandwhatthese[01:29:45.960]materialsare.Imean,whenIwas[01:29:48.600]a[01:29:49.720]uh,graduatestudentingenetics,we[01:29:52.080]thoughtofthecodeaslinear.[01:29:54.200]Uh,andthataproteinbindshere,it[01:29:57.360]turnsontheitturnsonthepromoter,[01:30:00.320]itrunsalong,itturnsonRNA[01:30:02.680]polymeraseandetc.Andnow,youknow,[01:30:06.000]thepapersthatarecomingout,we[01:30:07.480]understandtheDNAhasthisuh,[01:30:09.920]multi-foldingtopologywhereitdepends[01:30:12.800]uponastatisticaluhwherestatistics[01:30:16.120]wherethisarmofachromosomemight[01:30:17.720]occasionallypassbythatone,and[01:30:20.000]tha{t}^{\prime }swhatturnsthethisgeneon,and[01:30:22.480]itrequiresthatstatistics[01:30:24.720]uhforittohappen,butthattheDNAis[01:30:27.680]actuallyineverycellacomplex3D[01:30:30.400]machinecomputerthatiscomputingits[01:30:34.120]environmentbasedoninputandchanging[01:30:37.280]theorganizationalstructurebasedon[01:30:39.240]theenvironment.Andeachcellhasa[01:30:41.760]differentenvironment.Andsomehowall[01:30:43.680]ofthatiswrappedintooneeggatthe[01:30:45.680]beginning[01:30:46.880]thateverytimethecelldivides,i{t}^{\prime }s[01:30:49.320]wrappingitselfintoadifferent[01:30:50.640]environment.So,butallofthose[01:30:52.760]expectationsofallthemillionsof[01:30:54.280]cellsofwhatyouareisallbuiltin[01:30:56.720]theexpectintotheexpectationofthe[01:30:58.320]originalegg.Imean,tha{t}^{\prime }sjust[01:31:01.720]Imean,[01:31:02.560]youcanimagineasuperintelligence,or[01:31:06.040]youcanbe[01:31:07.360]umyouknow,youcanimaginetheselfish[01:31:09.560]genehypothesisthattrialanderrorgot[01:31:12.280]ushere.Well,ittook4billionyears,[01:31:15.080]butitgotushere.[01:31:16.840]Well,youcanandyoucanimaginethem[01:31:18.560]both.The{y}^{\prime }renotmutuallyexclusive[01:31:20.760]hypothesesororconcepts.Anditit[01:31:22.920]makesmewonderthatw{e}^{\prime }retalkingabout[01:31:24.720]thisfollowinguptalkingaboutthethe[01:31:26.520]materials[01:31:27.880]whether[01:31:29.360]okay,Imean,youknow,look,saythe[01:31:31.080]thingsthatlookliketheymightbetrue[01:31:33.400]aboutthematerialsyo{u}^{\prime }vejustanalyzed[01:31:34.880]aretrueandandandortheinferences[01:31:37.880]yo{u}^{\prime }remaking,whichisthatyoumay[01:31:39.680]havedesignofmaterials,the{y}^{\prime }re[01:31:42.000]inorganic,butthe{y}^{\prime }rejustas[01:31:43.520]multifunctionalasorganicquote[01:31:46.560]unquotematerials.[01:31:48.480]Umthatthatokay,iftha{t}^{\prime }strue,that[01:31:51.720]alsowouldallowyoutomakethe[01:31:53.040]inferenceumIthinkthatumityou[01:31:56.920]know,wemayhaveitwrongrightnow[01:31:59.000]thati{t}^{\prime }si{t}^{\prime }sthesuperiorthingtodo[01:32:02.520]istouhdesign[01:32:06.560]artificialintelligenceandthenimagine[01:32:08.760]thatininintelligenc{e}^{\prime }sbestsubstrate[01:32:11.680]isinorganicwheninfacttheorganic[01:32:15.680]mightbethemostcomplexbutalso[01:32:18.440]effectivetechnologyofthemallifyou[01:32:21.600]ifyouactuallycouldtreatit[01:32:23.160]technologically.Right.Imeanifwe[01:32:25.120]were{n}^{\prime }tlimitedbythepriorsofour[01:32:29.280]evolution[01:32:30.560]umwhichyouknowendedupcreatingan[01:32:32.880]intelligencewhichstillrunson[01:32:35.080]milliwattscomparedtothethermonuclear[01:32:39.440]powerplantsw{e}^{\prime }remakingtoruntheAI[01:32:42.200]oftoday.[01:32:43.720]Umi{t}^{\prime }syouknoww{e}^{\prime }rew{e}^{\prime }rebasically[01:32:48.200]um[01:32:49.200]bruteforcingintelligencewith[01:32:52.080]electricity.[01:32:53.640]Uhanduh[01:32:55.880]relatively[01:32:57.600]um[01:32:58.280]Imeanthe{y}^{\prime }restillcomplexobviously[01:33:00.040]theNvidiachipsetc.areall[01:33:01.600]extraordinarilycomplexandthepinnacle[01:33:03.960]ofofachievementandyetthe{y}^{\prime }rethey[01:33:06.960]theystilldo{n}^{\prime }taccomplishwhat[01:33:10.880]isaccomplishedinhumanbrains.[01:33:13.520]Umandsoyeswemightendupbeingback[01:33:16.160]at[01:33:17.120]uh[01:33:18.560]somekindofdynamicprocesseslikewhat[01:33:21.920]neuronsaccomplishorwemightfinda[01:33:24.680]wayto[01:33:26.600]makea[01:33:27.840]umacrystal-likesubstratesubstrateor[01:33:31.800]materialthatmimicsallofthese[01:33:34.040]functionalitiesofwhatwethinkofas[01:33:35.880]ourbrainbutcompactitdownjustinto[01:33:38.520]intoastandard[01:33:40.400]uhsolidsubstrate.[01:33:42.680]Umandsothatwedo{n}^{\prime }tagainhaveto[01:33:45.560]thinkintermsofresistorscapacitors[01:33:48.520]youknowetc.butyouhavethis[01:33:50.720]multifunctionalobjectwhere[01:33:53.200]theSother{e}^{\prime }sather{e}^{\prime }sather{e}^{\prime }sa[01:33:55.640]conceptactuallyoneofthefirst[01:33:56.920]companiesthatIsoldumum[01:33:59.560]whattoumRocheDiagnosticsuhthata[01:34:05.120]statisticianandcomputer[01:34:07.120]uh[01:34:07.760]specialistandaPhDstudentwhowas[01:34:10.120]co-betweenheandI[01:34:12.520]umwesoldtoum[01:34:15.600]toRocheusedsomethingcalledfield[01:34:18.160]programmablegatearrays.[01:34:20.640]AndwhatFPGAsare,andthe{y}^{\prime }restill[01:34:23.120]usedtoday,istherearetheseThe{y}^{\prime }re[01:34:26.320]kindoflikeatabularasaofof[01:34:29.400]circuits[01:34:30.720]uhthatyoucanyoucaninnearreal[01:34:34.720]timechangetheconnectionsbetween[01:34:37.880]theseobjectstoonemomenti{t}^{\prime }sa[01:34:40.840]computer,thenextmomenti{t}^{\prime }samemory,[01:34:43.920]thenextmomenti{t}^{\prime }savideogame.Um[01:34:46.360]the{y}^{\prime }resortoflikether{e}^{\prime }sacontrol[01:34:47.760]layerthatsitsontopthatreachesdown[01:34:49.920]intotheconnectionsandsays,"Well,[01:34:51.760]nowyo{u}^{\prime }rearesistor.Nowyo{u}^{\prime }rea[01:34:53.520]transistor.Nowyo{u}^{\prime }reathis."Andall[01:34:55.520]theconfigurationandthewiringbetween[01:34:57.280]themcanbechangedinmilliseconds.[01:35:00.320]UmandFPGAsarereallythethethe[01:35:05.280]heartof[01:35:06.680]thiskindof[01:35:08.200]deformableandreformableuhcompute[01:35:11.440]systemthatyoucouldimagineuhifyou[01:35:15.360]couldcompactitinto[01:35:17.600]inintoa3Dsubstratethatdid{n}^{\prime }t[01:35:20.720]requiretheFPGAorganization,might[01:35:24.360]mightbetheabilityortheplacewhere[01:35:27.880]whateveryouwanttocallconsciousness[01:35:29.640]couldresidebecausei{t}^{\prime }sofsufficient[01:35:31.840]complexity.Now,wecangetintoawhole[01:35:34.040]discussionaboutisconsciousness[01:35:36.200]createdbytheneuronsversusisitin[01:35:38.680]theyouknow,theum[01:35:40.920]themicrotubulesorareweanavatar[01:35:43.080]justyouknow,someportalfromthe[01:35:44.640]extrayouknow,the93rddimension,[01:35:46.720]whatever,does{n}^{\prime }tmatter.[01:35:48.800]Um[01:35:49.640]if[01:35:50.720]itacts[01:35:52.120]uh[01:35:52.720]andhasthesamecapabilities[01:35:55.200]aswhatitisthatwethinkofasa[01:35:56.880]superintelligence[01:35:58.520]andcantalktousasifandwealready[01:36:00.480]knowthatthethethingsthatw{e}^{\prime }re[01:36:02.040]workingwithtodaypassthestandard[01:36:04.120]Turingtest.[01:36:05.560]Umyouknow,butisitsmarterthanus[01:36:08.360]yet?No.Butisittireless?Yes.[01:36:12.800]Aslongasweprovideenoughelectricity[01:36:14.720]andpayforpayforit.UmsoIyou[01:36:18.560]know,toanotherpointthatyo{u}^{\prime }draised[01:36:21.160]before[01:36:22.520]Ica{n}^{\prime }tevenkeepupwiththeAIthat[01:36:24.600]I^{\prime }musingcuzeachweeksuddenlythe[01:36:27.720]capabilitiesnextweekaresomuch[01:36:30.120]greater.I^{\prime }malmostafraidtoputany[01:36:31.680]effortintowhatitisthatIhavethis[01:36:33.800]weekcuzIknowthatnextweekisabout[01:36:35.760]tobecomebetter.[01:36:37.760]Youknow,andalreadyfromayearago[01:36:40.640]w{e}^{\prime }reatalevelofcapabilitythat[01:36:44.880]makes[01:36:46.120]what{I}^{\prime }m[01:36:47.000]doingtodaymakemewonderwellnext[01:36:49.200]yeari{t}^{\prime }sgoingtobe[01:36:52.600]youknow,arealsuperintelligence[01:36:54.840]AGIasSamAltman[01:36:57.400]callsit.Hesaysw{e}^{\prime }rew{e}^{\prime }reveryclose[01:36:59.080]tothatandw{e}^{\prime }renotthatfarfromASI[01:37:01.840]superintelligencemeaninganexpertof[01:37:04.200]allexperts.Somethingthatwouldbe[01:37:05.920]doingthingsthatwedo{n}^{\prime }teven[01:37:07.440]understand.[01:37:08.960]Umandyouknow,andthenofallthe[01:37:11.440]thenther{e}^{\prime }sallthescarestories[01:37:12.600]aroundthat.Sow{e}^{\prime }rew{e}^{\prime }recloseto[01:37:14.920]beingabletodesignanobjectthat[01:37:17.320]coulddesignallofthestuffthat{I}^{\prime }m[01:37:19.400]justtalkingabout.[01:37:21.160]Uhandperhapsevencreatethe[01:37:22.840]instrumentsthatwoulddoitthatwould[01:37:24.600]dothingsthatwedo{n}^{\prime }tevenunderstand[01:37:26.160]howthe{y}^{\prime }redoingit.[01:37:27.560]Sow{e}^{\prime }recreatingthealien[01:37:29.840]thatw{e}^{\prime }retalkingaboutwonderingabout[01:37:32.080]>>Yeah,andandIthinkthethethe[01:37:34.120]conversationaboutnon-human[01:37:35.720]intelligenceintheUAPsenseespecially[01:37:38.760]ininlightofthefactthatnowthe[01:37:40.520]presidentsarearestartingtoopenthe[01:37:42.480]curtainandnon-humanintelligencein[01:37:44.560]thesenseofAIaregoingto[01:37:46.080]increasinglyconvergeandi{t}^{\prime }llforcea[01:37:48.160]lotofreflectionaboutumuhyouknow,[01:37:51.800]whoweareandasmuchasw{e}^{\prime }re[01:37:53.400]biological.Right.Yeah,Ithinkandyou[01:37:56.520]askedthequestionmuchearlierinthe[01:37:58.280]conversationishowdo[01:38:00.120]howwillhumansdealwiththeactuality[01:38:04.800]of[01:38:06.160]uhallegednon-humanintelligence?[01:38:09.560]Well,[01:38:10.600]whetherwelikeitornot,within2or3[01:38:12.880]years,w{e}^{\prime }regoingtobetherewhether[01:38:14.520]i{t}^{\prime }saliensorsomethingw{e}^{\prime }vemade[01:38:16.240]ourselves.[01:38:17.480]So,theconversationisbeinghad.[01:38:20.040]Umanditwillbeandi{t}^{\prime }sparallelin[01:38:23.640]facttotheconversationthatweshould[01:38:25.680]behavingaboutwhetherornotthereare[01:38:28.920]uhintelligencesfromelsewherethat[01:38:31.400]werenotmotivatedby,[01:38:33.760]youknow,ourattempttomakemimicsof[01:38:36.240]ourselvesoratleastto[01:38:38.600]easeourlives.[01:38:40.600]Well,thenher{e}^{\prime }saher{e}^{\prime }saquestion[01:38:42.200]foryouthattiesallthisbackuhor[01:38:45.160]tiesthearcoftheconversationbackto[01:38:47.120]togovernmentis[01:38:49.320]youandIarebothfamiliarvery[01:38:52.000]familiarindifferentwaysandto[01:38:53.640]differentdegreeswithvariousclaimsuh[01:38:57.000]kindofseepingoutoftheintelligence[01:38:58.640]communityaboutuhwhatthecomponents[01:39:01.600]ofitthathaveuhallegedlyworkedon[01:39:04.760]recoveredtechnologyorstudieduhthe[01:39:07.360]UAPphenomenoningeneralumorevenuh[01:39:11.680]hadencounterswithoruhacquired[01:39:15.520]biologicalspecimen[01:39:18.680]aorthingsthatappeartobe[01:39:20.760]biological.[01:39:22.120]Umandandwhenweheartheseclaims,I[01:39:25.200]thinkyouandIreacttothemin[01:39:26.720]differentwaysuhbasedonourtraining[01:39:29.160]andourourresearchtodate.Umbothof[01:39:32.120]usareskeptical,Ithink,thatuh[01:39:35.680]peoplehavealwaysunderstoodwhat[01:39:37.600]the{y}^{\prime }veencounteredwhatthe{y}^{\prime }ve[01:39:38.720]examined.Andtellmewhatyouthink[01:39:40.960]tellmewhatyouthinkaboutthatinthe[01:39:42.240]contextofthethingsw{e}^{\prime }retalking[01:39:43.680]about.[01:39:45.160]UhImean[01:39:46.520]atleastagainfromthestandpointof[01:39:49.680]theum[01:39:52.680]the[01:39:53.800]againsomeofthestoriesoftheof[01:39:55.800]Le{t}^{\prime }stalkaboutJamesFo{x}^{\prime }sworkwith[01:39:58.000]inArgentina.[01:39:59.440]Wherethe[01:40:01.160]hehadaum[01:40:03.600]Ithinkitwasapathologistoruha[01:40:05.920]doctoroneven[01:40:07.600]>>aneurosurgeon.[01:40:08.560]>>neurosurgeonwhohadbeenumcon-you[01:40:12.680]know,hadbeenbroughtintoanalyze[01:40:14.680]whatitwas.Anditwasstillalive.[01:40:17.880]allegedly[01:40:19.280]Andhegottheimpressionthatthis[01:40:21.560]thingwasclearlyintelligent.And[01:40:23.680]somehowhegottheimpressionthatit[01:40:24.920]feltsorryforus.[01:40:27.840]AtleastthatwaswhatIthoughtI[01:40:29.160]heard.[01:40:30.160]Umand[01:40:32.160]>>andempathy.[01:40:33.080]>>Compassionandempathy.[01:40:34.160]>>ofcompassionofthefactIthinkhe[01:40:35.800]saiduhtheneurosurgeonsaidthatum[01:40:39.200]despitebeingataaverylowlevelof[01:40:42.280]ofmedicineandtechnologythatheand[01:40:44.800]histeamweredoingthebesttheycould[01:40:46.560]totohelpit.Right.Andsoyouknow[01:40:50.280]that[01:40:51.520]tellsmeImeantellsmeatleastthat[01:40:56.240]um[01:40:57.480]w{e}^{\prime }re[01:40:58.720]w{e}^{\prime }redealingwithsomethingthatcan[01:41:01.560]seetheother,recognizetheotherfor[01:41:03.480]whatitis.[01:41:04.800]Uhandcanfeelsorryforits[01:41:10.520]primitiveness.[01:41:12.480]Umandcompassionthatandunderstanding[01:41:15.440]thatwellyoudo{n}^{\prime }tknowwhatIamand[01:41:17.760]andsobutthatdoes{n}^{\prime }tmeanthati{t}^{\prime }s[01:41:20.200]anextraterrestrial.Youcouldjustas[01:41:21.880]easilyimaginethatitisaaprinted[01:41:25.120]entitythathasconsciousnessandand[01:41:27.840]agencyineverywaythatwethinkthat[01:41:29.840]wedo.[01:41:31.360]Umbutitstillmightbethe[01:41:35.520]youknow,thetheproductofahigher[01:41:37.320]levelintelligence[01:41:39.160]thatisjustsortof[01:41:41.800]instantaneousitselfasasubmind,if[01:41:44.600]youwill,[01:41:46.160]withyouknow,roboticcapabilities[01:41:48.960]that,youknow,wecallitarobot,but[01:41:51.320]asfarasi{t}^{\prime }sconcerned,i{t}^{\prime }sstill[01:41:52.720]smarterthanus.[01:41:54.480]Youknow,butIthinkitcomesbackto[01:41:56.600]if[01:41:58.040]ifw{e}^{\prime }reseeingthesethings,andthis[01:42:00.200]comesbacktosomethingthatyoujust[01:42:01.360]mentioned,andandthe{y}^{\prime }renotmetallic[01:42:04.040]objectsinteractingwithus,[01:42:06.520]maybetha{t}^{\prime }stellingusthat[01:42:09.160]organicchemistryisabettersubstrate[01:42:12.600]forflexibilitythanisinorganic.[01:42:15.880]Inorganicmightstillbesmarter,butor[01:42:19.840]organicmotility[01:42:22.200]mightstillbeabettersubstratefor[01:42:25.120]interactingwiththeworldthanis[01:42:27.920]a,youknow,thanisarobot.[01:42:30.640]Well,andour,Imean,[01:42:32.400]youknow,Iassomeonewhodoes{n}^{\prime }t,you[01:42:35.360]know,deeplyunderstandAI,butisvery[01:42:37.240]proximatehereinSanFranciscototo[01:42:39.800]peopledoingveryadvancedworkinAI,[01:42:43.240]oftenfeelthatthewayintelligenceis[01:42:45.520]definedinAIis[01:42:49.480]mostly[01:42:51.400]yo{u}^{\prime }retakingthenotionthat[01:42:52.720]calculatingsomethingisintelligent.[01:42:54.920]Right.AndIIthinkintelligence,you[01:42:57.360]know,eveneventhemostnormative[01:42:59.040]dimensionsofintelligenceumhaveto[01:43:01.840]accountformanyotherkindsof[01:43:03.560]cognitiveprocessesandandskills.[01:43:07.880]Andandsoyo{u}^{\prime }vegotthatthatwould[01:43:10.200]speakagainsttheideathattheinner[01:43:11.920]inorganicwouldbeaagreat,youknow,[01:43:14.280]wedo{n}^{\prime }thavewordsforthismediumor[01:43:16.120]formatforsomekindofintelligentand[01:43:18.320]andself-reflectivityandtheandandI[01:43:20.760]mean,youknow,thatbyyouknow,that[01:43:22.320]thatwouldbeagooddefinitionofof[01:43:23.760]consciousness.[01:43:25.120]Butalsothatitmaynotgiveyouthe[01:43:27.280]goods[01:43:28.920]ifyouwanttohavesomekindof[01:43:30.840]capacityforinteraction,asyousaid,[01:43:33.160]motility,butalsothecapacityto[01:43:35.200]perceivethings.Right.[01:43:37.520]Butitmightitmightthencreate[01:43:40.080]objectsthatdothis.Imean,Ido{n}^{\prime }t[01:43:41.560]knowifyo{u}^{\prime }vebeenfollowingtherecent[01:43:43.560]Maltbot,ClaudeBot,uh,agentthingthat[01:43:47.040]hasbeendevelopedrecentlywhere[01:43:49.640]um,youknow,someguycameupwith[01:43:51.200]400,000linesofcode[01:43:53.400]ofofsomethingthatcouldusethe[01:43:56.240]underlyinglargelanguagemodelsasa[01:43:57.960]superagentandlearn.Andandthen[01:44:00.760]theseagentscouldalltalktoeach[01:44:02.680]otheronsomethingcalled[01:44:04.720]Maltbook[01:44:06.560]wherethey[01:44:07.920]passskillsacrosstoeachother.[01:44:10.080]So,youknow,thisisallhappeningout[01:44:11.600]inthecloud,essentially.[01:44:13.640]Uh,[01:44:14.240]and,youknow,tha{t}^{\prime }sadynamicprocess[01:44:17.160]whereyo{u}^{\prime }recreatingadistributed[01:44:19.320]intelligence.[01:44:21.320]Um,andso,butit,youknow,i{t}^{\prime }s[01:44:25.080]the{y}^{\prime }vegot[01:44:26.320]ClaudeBotsthatareoutthererightnow,[01:44:28.160]orMaltBots,whateveryouwanttocall[01:44:29.440]them,uh,thatarespinninguptheirown[01:44:32.640]companies[01:44:33.880]andandfundingtheirown[01:44:36.280]theirownrunning.So,basically,the,[01:44:39.120]youknow,thepersonwhowrotethem[01:44:40.400]said,"Youhavefreedomtospendthis[01:44:42.560]$10, [01:44:43.960] uh, but you have to go make your own [01:44:45.040] money, uh, to keep running.” [01:44:47.520] And so, it figures out ways to do it. [01:44:49.880] Uh, and, you know, makes makes money by [01:44:52.360] arbitration [01:44:54.040] uh, [01:44:55.120] of the stock market, or things, or find [01:44:57.440] some other way to It creates an Etsy [01:44:58.960] store. [01:45:00.320] You know, and and so, literally, these [01:45:02.880] are all happening right now under our [01:45:05.560] very nose. [01:45:06.880] Um, and so, [01:45:08.960] this notion that we still have to think [01:45:10.600] of it as being in a box as opposed to [01:45:12.480] distributed. [01:45:14.120] Um, you know, but eventually, it will [01:45:16.120] get smaller and smaller. Um, so, maybe [01:45:19.000] you could have a thousand little [01:45:20.760] MaltBots sitting in a box, [01:45:22.920] uh, because you’ve got a dynamic [01:45:25.280] FPGA-like object that can rewrite itself [01:45:28.840] and reorganize its internal structure in [01:45:31.760] a way that [01:45:33.280] meets the immediate need. [01:45:36.800] Well, well. [01:45:38.480] Okay, so to continue with the with the [01:45:40.120] government on this point, I mean, [01:45:42.320] as we go into [01:45:45.000] I mean, we’re we’re we’re entering a [01:45:46.680] period, I think. I know this could prove [01:45:49.520] not to be the case where [01:45:51.880] there will at least be a public attempt [01:45:54.320] to [01:45:55.760] to release some kind of UAP records. And [01:46:00.200] and you know, I I will speak for myself. [01:46:02.320] I’m absolutely certain there are more [01:46:03.840] records there than than [01:46:06.040] those that were were [01:46:08.280] declassified at different times such as [01:46:10.200] in the late 1970s or or public records [01:46:12.720] like Blue Book records. Um [01:46:16.200] you know, [01:46:17.240] again, how well do you think [01:46:20.560] the vehicles, the ostensible biological [01:46:23.120] occupants, [01:46:24.760] the interaction of the vehicles with us, [01:46:27.320] potential communications have ever been [01:46:29.520] understood [01:46:31.280] by groups within or individuals within [01:46:33.560] the intelligence community that that [01:46:35.640] have worked on this? I mean, I you know, [01:46:40.160] sounds conspiratorial, but I think that [01:46:41.760] they know a lot more than what they’ve [01:46:43.720] let on, but I don’t have to be [01:46:45.680] conspiratorial to listen to our [01:46:47.360] representatives who’ve seen the videos [01:46:50.160] and have said, “We need to release those [01:46:51.920] videos because the videos speak for [01:46:54.760] themselves.” [01:46:56.480] Uh and and so if they’re not willing to [01:47:00.360] release the videos and there are [01:47:02.120] representatives who’ve been [01:47:04.400] sworn to secrecy, but are able to say [01:47:07.680] that they exist, [01:47:09.840] then let’s see them. And maybe those [01:47:12.240] should be the first things that [01:47:14.960] President Trump’s announcement [01:47:18.120] gets allowed to be shown. And so then [01:47:20.520] it’s really up to our representatives to [01:47:24.280] you know use [01:47:26.000] uh the announcement from the president [01:47:29.320] uh as a motivator to [01:47:33.440] get those things out. [01:47:35.080] Um but you know it’s [01:47:38.160] the world’s a chaotic place and [01:47:41.480] uh you know there’s only so many things [01:47:43.560] that even any administration can do at [01:47:46.160] any one point in time. [01:47:47.920] Um and so [01:47:50.320] you know just because it’s [01:47:52.360] my particular interest doesn’t mean that [01:47:54.520] it needs to be at the top of the [01:47:55.640] national security agenda. Yeah and I [01:47:58.080] think both both you and I would want to [01:48:00.080] say publicly and and to say to people [01:48:02.800] who are passionate about this that that [01:48:05.080] um [01:48:05.840] uh often the the what’s disappointing [01:48:08.960] about what happens with federal [01:48:10.160] government with this is is uh simply a a [01:48:13.040] problem of uh [01:48:15.240] timeline resources um what what is what [01:48:18.600] is attainable and not just ideal and and [01:48:20.880] so on and [01:48:22.280] and we know that that the the people in [01:48:24.360] the house who are working on this are [01:48:25.680] doing it with [01:48:27.360] you know I I think they’re they’re kind [01:48:29.000] of working in overtime on this because [01:48:30.720] they have other responsibilities in [01:48:32.040] Congress and they still manage to work [01:48:35.120] all the time on this and they have a [01:48:36.440] great understanding of it at this point [01:48:38.120] and [01:48:39.160] Well I mean just just look at the [01:48:40.200] argument about whether or not we should [01:48:41.800] be sending anybody to the moon. [01:48:44.600] You know oh the resources could be [01:48:45.880] better spent on this or spent on that. I [01:48:47.720] mean [01:48:48.800] humanity didn’t get to where it is by [01:48:51.560] always doing what was practical. [01:48:54.080] Um you know basic research is not [01:48:57.240] practical. [01:48:58.480] Basic research is the discovery of [01:49:00.880] knowledge that somebody might in [01:49:02.320] retrospect determine can be made [01:49:04.200] practical. [01:49:05.680] Putting piece A B and C together to get [01:49:09.840] alpha. [01:49:11.080] Right or omega. [01:49:13.240] And so I’ve always I mean me as a [01:49:16.880] tinkerer, [01:49:18.080] that’s always been my [01:49:20.560] modus operandi is like it’s like I I I [01:49:23.120] just I I want to know enough about the [01:49:24.880] pieces because with the pieces now I can [01:49:27.080] assemble something that nobody else had [01:49:29.040] before. [01:49:30.040] Which is why [01:49:31.400] I am so fascinated by [01:49:34.680] the possibility of [01:49:36.760] non-human technology [01:49:39.040] that learning it [01:49:41.600] or even seeing us tiniest pieces of it [01:49:44.720] will teach me perhaps principles that I [01:49:47.800] could lift and apply to my understanding [01:49:51.240] both of the world but how to make [01:49:52.440] something new. [01:49:54.040] And how to make something, you know, and [01:49:55.760] and you know, one of the things I had [01:49:57.600] great hopes for originally with the [01:49:59.160] UAPDA and Karl Nell’s efforts was that [01:50:03.200] in opening the door to access to some of [01:50:08.440] these materials, we could perhaps create [01:50:10.920] a public-private partnership. Now, I [01:50:12.720] realize that that upsets some people [01:50:14.760] that you know, that means big money [01:50:16.680] would get involved again, but I’m I’m [01:50:18.680] sorry. That’s [01:50:20.160] you know, absent some fundamental change [01:50:22.680] to how human consciousness works. [01:50:24.920] Um [01:50:25.800] you know, [01:50:26.960] basically motivation is still driven by [01:50:30.720] by accomplishment. Um [01:50:33.480] and uh [01:50:34.800] so if we could make practical [01:50:38.640] some discovery out of the underlying [01:50:42.400] technology even if it isn’t [01:50:44.040] understanding how the thing really [01:50:46.000] works. [01:50:47.080] I mean, I’ve I again often said this, [01:50:49.280] you know, understanding how silicon [01:50:51.120] doped with [01:50:52.840] a few other atoms of a different [01:50:54.520] constituency suddenly makes a [01:50:55.880] semiconductor that that that runs our [01:50:59.280] world. [01:51:00.600] Um so, there’s probably other principles [01:51:03.240] waiting for us to understand that could [01:51:06.560] completely change the nature. I mean, [01:51:09.440] there are literally right now um [01:51:12.640] trading um [01:51:15.280] uh, I don’t know what the word is, um, [01:51:18.160] of, uh, [01:51:19.480] of the [01:51:21.160] groups of companies in which you can [01:51:22.640] invest that somebody has decided if [01:51:24.920] they’re involved in the, [01:51:27.000] um, in the legacy program. Uh, these [01:51:30.360] would be companies that either are [01:51:31.560] directly involved or would be or would [01:51:33.640] benefit from understanding. And so, [01:51:34.960] people are trading [01:51:36.640] monetarily on those kinds of prediction [01:51:39.440] markets. [01:51:40.800] Uh, and so, you know, there’s there’s [01:51:43.400] enough [01:51:44.960] incentive at out there to push forward [01:51:49.000] better understanding even even if [01:51:53.040] none of this is right. [01:51:55.120] Even if it’s all everybody’s [01:51:57.440] hallucination. [01:51:59.120] Thinking that we could go from zero to [01:52:01.480] 5,000 miles an hour [01:52:03.320] without splattering ourselves against [01:52:05.960] the windshield when we stop, [01:52:08.840] motivates you to think how you could do [01:52:10.280] it. Yeah, it’s something I haven’t [01:52:12.480] understood at times when people [01:52:15.160] often think that you you would need to [01:52:17.960] move, uh, any existing recovered [01:52:20.840] technology, [01:52:22.400] um, out of classified environments to [01:52:24.720] make any advances on understanding UAP [01:52:27.720] performance characteristics, meaning [01:52:29.280] understanding the science behind them. [01:52:31.200] Because just the desire of five [01:52:35.080] 20-year-old physics undergraduates [01:52:37.360] today, if you put them together and you [01:52:39.120] give them 15 years to understand how to [01:52:41.360] emulate those characteristics, Exactly. [01:52:43.880] >> it would lead to fundamental changes. [01:52:45.360] Right. I mean, yeah, I mean, we we [01:52:47.200] looked at birds and said, “Can we fly?” [01:52:50.800] You know, and, you know, [01:52:53.160] uh, [01:52:54.760] Michelangelo, was it Michelangelo who [01:52:57.200] >> Da Vinci. Da Vinci, sorry, thank you. [01:52:59.800] Da Vinci, you know, basically drew the [01:53:01.800] first potential planes. [01:53:04.760] You know, they were, I mean, they they [01:53:06.880] weren’t practical, but he was thinking [01:53:09.680] about it. [01:53:10.920] Um, and [01:53:12.240] >> may have taken 400 years to get there, [01:53:14.080] but but but eventually someone got [01:53:16.000] there. Yes. [01:53:16.680] >> But in cosmic terms, that’s nothing. [01:53:18.320] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [01:53:20.640] Yeah. Now now you mentioned a public [01:53:24.040] private partnership there a moment ago [01:53:26.000] and that’s been something you’ve been [01:53:27.080] talking about for years. I think I I [01:53:29.800] want to ask you to expand upon that. I [01:53:31.800] mean, to just repeat something you said [01:53:33.760] that people might have missed. You’re [01:53:35.600] saying, “Look, you you you don’t have to [01:53:38.400] let the entire beast [01:53:41.320] out from behind the curtain. Right. You [01:53:43.600] can you can let out you can you can [01:53:46.360] release a few scientific or technical [01:53:48.560] discoveries or or things that are at the [01:53:50.960] threshold of discovery. Let them be [01:53:53.400] worked on [01:53:54.880] in a more more open way. Parts of it [01:53:57.280] probably unclassified, parts classified [01:53:59.840] still, but you’ve got way more you’ve [01:54:01.960] got greater numbers of scientists and [01:54:04.320] engineers working. Right. And and I I [01:54:07.960] think, you know, somebody on the inside [01:54:10.440] would say, [01:54:11.560] “Oh, that’s that’s already being done.” [01:54:14.320] Right? That we’ve already given this [01:54:15.840] piece to, you know, [01:54:18.640] defense corporation X or, you know, [01:54:21.800] corporation Y. [01:54:23.480] Yeah, that’s fine, but [01:54:25.920] it’s not there’s no expectation that [01:54:28.200] it’ll be shared with anybody else. [01:54:30.600] And the value of open source science has [01:54:32.880] has been shown frankly recently in AI [01:54:34.920] again or in in biology [01:54:38.280] is that when ideas are shared, they are [01:54:42.720] they are amplified and become [01:54:44.240] synergistic with other ideas that are [01:54:46.280] shared. And so, there’s I don’t see and [01:54:50.040] and certainly at least as has been [01:54:51.680] explained to me by people who claim to [01:54:54.840] be involved or know of the legacy [01:54:56.600] program is that the silos [01:54:58.760] are the problem. I mean, if I had siloed [01:55:00.960] my postdocs each in a separate [01:55:03.040] laboratory never to work with each [01:55:04.760] other, all 30 or so of them that might [01:55:06.360] have been in the room at the at a in my [01:55:08.360] lab at any given moment in time, [01:55:10.360] we would never accomplish anything. It’s [01:55:11.800] that team interaction [01:55:13.840] that, you know, gets the back and forth [01:55:16.040] going on because [01:55:18.520] the attention span of any one person on [01:55:20.360] any one thing doesn’t let you realize [01:55:22.920] that [01:55:24.560] on the lab bench just next to you is is [01:55:26.920] going on some piece of [01:55:28.520] information that you could have used. [01:55:30.880] And so [01:55:32.080] the public-private partnership idea is [01:55:34.520] that outside investment groups could [01:55:36.840] come in, invest in something, or even [01:55:39.440] put in put down money and say, [01:55:42.400] “I’ll put down a million dollars or a [01:55:44.560] hundred million dollars and I’ll get [01:55:47.000] first rights of refusal of anything that [01:55:49.240] comes out of this.” [01:55:50.880] Now, actually, that’s not an idea that’s [01:55:53.680] unused today. I mean, literally, [01:55:56.000] pharmaceutical companies [01:55:57.840] or large um [01:56:00.520] uh electronics companies give money to [01:56:03.320] universities [01:56:05.200] in such a format, such an open format, [01:56:07.760] that says, “We’re going to give you the [01:56:08.600] money. [01:56:09.680] We’ll, you know, maybe help you [01:56:12.560] decide which projects should get [01:56:15.120] funded. [01:56:16.400] But [01:56:17.560] we get first rights of refusal [01:56:19.680] when you come up with something that [01:56:20.800] might be patentable and usable.” [01:56:24.480] Perfectly acceptable because then what [01:56:25.880] happens is actually then the university [01:56:27.320] will get a return. First of all, it pays [01:56:29.760] for the researchers to do fun stuff [01:56:32.560] and to explore. [01:56:34.080] Uh but also, if something practical [01:56:35.920] comes out of it, the university gets a [01:56:37.880] return on and often the [01:56:41.240] the researcher, like me, gets a chance [01:56:43.200] to spin the company out. We’re [01:56:45.640] would be then further funded by the same [01:56:47.160] VC that took the option out in the first [01:56:49.040] place. And I’ve watched that happen [01:56:51.240] hundreds of times. [01:56:52.840] Uh and so, I think that model is not [01:56:56.360] being well accessed by our own [01:56:58.800] government in this [01:57:01.160] situation. Now, it might be that the [01:57:04.480] holders of the Holy Grails [01:57:06.920] might feel that they’ve got it all under [01:57:08.000] control and they don’t need anybody [01:57:08.960] else’s help. So, thank you very much, [01:57:10.200] Gary. [01:57:11.480] We’ve got it under control. [01:57:13.040] My argument would be I doubt it. [01:57:16.560] Because I’ve seen many times [01:57:19.680] you know, in especially in large [01:57:21.560] pharmaceutical companies when they say [01:57:22.960] such thing, 2 years later they shut down [01:57:24.960] the whole division. [01:57:26.920] Because they don’t got it. [01:57:28.800] They don’t have the best brains. [01:57:31.960] The best brains are usually sitting, you [01:57:34.760] know, over in the mathematics [01:57:35.960] department, physics department staring [01:57:37.520] at the wall. [01:57:39.720] You know, [01:57:41.040] you know, so in their own head that [01:57:44.040] they’re they’re living in a world of [01:57:45.520] imagination that [01:57:48.600] you know, somebody shackled to a desk, [01:57:51.160] you know, in the Department of Defense [01:57:53.480] of the Pentagon doesn’t have the the [01:57:55.160] time to deal with cuz they’re too busy [01:57:56.920] writing reports. [01:57:58.666] >> [clears throat] [01:57:59.800] >> Well, and you know, something that I’ve [01:58:01.600] learned [01:58:02.920] from from Jim Semivan about classified [01:58:05.720] programs is he said, “Look, you you you [01:58:08.200] generally that they fall apart after [01:58:10.440] about 3 years because your security [01:58:12.400] falls apart.” He goes, “So, you you [01:58:14.240] never really set up programs with the [01:58:16.440] expectation that they’re going to last [01:58:18.160] that long.” Mhm. He says, “It’s great [01:58:20.160] when they do, but at some point you have [01:58:22.480] a failure of security. Adversaries find [01:58:26.320] out about it, uh competitors within the [01:58:28.280] US government find out, and and so, you [01:58:31.560] know, no matter how well designed, [01:58:34.160] um they have a short lifespan.” [01:58:36.160] Interesting. Go go ahead. Oh, I was [01:58:39.040] going to say he says, you know, as a [01:58:40.560] result, there’s no way that the legacy [01:58:43.080] program can be that large. He said, [01:58:45.040] “There’s no way it would have been kept [01:58:46.120] secret for that long if it was if it was [01:58:48.240] huge.” And that goes then right to the [01:58:50.040] point that I want to make here which is [01:58:53.440] you know, we we know personally but [01:58:55.640] everyone knows publicly a number of [01:58:57.480] individuals that have come out of the [01:58:59.120] DOD and the intelligence community whose [01:59:01.400] whole complaint about UAP secrecy is [01:59:04.480] that it has resulted in pure adversaries [01:59:09.160] having at least potentially a leg up on [01:59:12.200] the development and and reverse [01:59:13.880] engineering of technology precisely [01:59:16.440] because they’re not facing those same [01:59:18.640] sorts of constraints you face from an [01:59:20.640] organization when you’re when you have a [01:59:22.840] commitment a democratic commitment to [01:59:24.800] transparency. [01:59:26.400] And I’ve seen this in you know, for [01:59:28.520] instance in um [01:59:30.880] relationships I’ve had with [01:59:31.960] pharmaceutical companies where we set up [01:59:34.280] a um an ongoing agreement to [01:59:36.960] collaborate. [01:59:38.720] Never [01:59:39.920] ever has the relationship lasted more [01:59:42.160] than 3 years. [01:59:44.200] Because inevitably [01:59:45.800] the [01:59:47.240] uh [01:59:47.800] power structure within the organization [01:59:49.720] changes or the person who is in charge [01:59:52.840] of the operation ends up moving on to a [01:59:54.760] different job. [01:59:56.240] And so yeah, I think the legacy program [01:59:58.040] would be a case in point where [02:00:00.320] you know, and [02:00:01.400] uh where expertise leaves and so the [02:00:03.960] institutional knowledge required to keep [02:00:08.360] an operation running disappears. [02:00:11.840] Um and you know, that is uh I mean, [02:00:15.800] that’s just a fact of of corporate and [02:00:18.800] academic life. [02:00:20.360] Uh and so uh [02:00:22.800] yeah, I mean and [02:00:24.400] when people say that all of this could [02:00:26.160] have been kept secret or can’t be kept [02:00:28.080] secret. No nobody could possibly keep [02:00:29.920] this secret. Yeah, well, you’re right [02:00:31.120] cuz it hasn’t. [02:00:32.593] >> [laughter] [02:00:33.600] >> It hasn’t been kept secret. Um the only [02:00:36.120] thing that’s been done and continuously [02:00:37.800] is to say that it’s not true. [02:00:40.800] You know, with with as with as bad [02:00:44.640] a track record as [02:00:47.440] uh any government operation that says [02:00:49.560] that they’ve released all of the [02:00:50.560] information when then when you get the [02:00:52.640] information like all the Freedom of [02:00:53.920] Information Acts and you know um [02:00:57.240] uh [02:00:58.200] uh where everything is is redacted out. [02:01:01.040] Well, if everything is redacted out, I [02:01:02.640] mean [02:01:03.720] As Jared Moskowitz said in Congress and [02:01:07.320] and you told me not to underestimate the [02:01:09.000] statement um [02:01:10.960] you know because it’s simple but it’s so [02:01:12.240] true is [02:01:14.360] uh [02:01:15.080] you know if you you know there has to be [02:01:17.080] a fight club if you can’t talk about [02:01:18.720] fight club. Yeah, right. And so it’s [02:01:22.480] it’s there. [02:01:23.680] Um there’s there’s [02:01:25.240] uh [02:01:26.200] And so [02:01:28.720] People often say, “Why are you still [02:01:30.320] involved in this Gary?” It’s because [02:01:34.080] I can’t stand a puzzle unsolved [02:01:36.920] when the opportunity is so great. [02:01:39.640] Uh [02:01:40.240] and and it’s not so much the opportunity [02:01:44.160] that I want, it’s the opportunity lost [02:01:48.520] that I don’t want to see. [02:01:50.240] Um and I [02:01:51.400] >> Yeah, it has to be incredibly [02:01:52.760] frustrating for you know you’re not just [02:01:55.400] a scientist, you’re an inventor as you [02:01:57.280] said a tinker. So you know how to take [02:02:00.840] uh scientific research and [02:02:02.680] operationalize it technologically to [02:02:05.040] make science better and also to make [02:02:07.800] you know products that that result in [02:02:10.080] more funding for science. You know as as [02:02:12.360] far as I can see you’re a master at that [02:02:14.640] you know it’s not just the Stanford has [02:02:16.160] a culture of it, you’re you’re very [02:02:17.800] you’re excellent at that. So it’s got to [02:02:19.760] be very frustrating to be imagining [02:02:22.240] everything that could go wrong and a [02:02:24.520] bunch of things that probably are going [02:02:26.160] wrong [02:02:27.360] in the intelligence community with this [02:02:29.480] looking at the outside going you know [02:02:31.240] this isn’t about just about [02:02:33.800] secrecy and people needing to know, this [02:02:35.760] is like [02:02:37.240] what’s the loss to science here that [02:02:39.080] it’s been done this way. [02:02:40.880] I mean if [02:02:43.000] you know, there’s a legacy to any of the [02:02:45.400] work that any of us are doing today, [02:02:48.160] it’s to provide the arguments and seeds [02:02:51.080] for the next generation that comes along [02:02:53.720] to say, “Okay, well, these arguments [02:02:55.560] have already been made.” [02:02:57.120] Uh in fact, I can look back and see the [02:02:58.800] same arguments that I’ve been made been [02:03:00.200] made decades ago by others. So, it’s not [02:03:02.160] like I came up with them myself or I [02:03:04.280] might have come up with them [02:03:04.960] independently, but then I look back and [02:03:06.280] I go, “Oh, well, this person already [02:03:07.680] actually said it.” So, [02:03:09.280] you know, I’m I’m just [02:03:11.560] repeating what has been previously [02:03:13.360] discovered, but it’s to also motivate [02:03:17.200] others to get interested enough in it to [02:03:18.960] push further. Um and so, uh [02:03:23.840] you know, I’m I [02:03:25.480] People say, “Well, will you be [02:03:26.280] disappointed if there’s no disclosure [02:03:27.720] before you die?” I I say, “No. [02:03:31.040] Not really. I’ve had fun along the way.” [02:03:33.920] Um and as long as I’m having fun and I [02:03:36.360] don’t feel like I’m frustrated, [02:03:38.680] um I mean, I’m I might turn away from [02:03:41.200] this area for a while, [02:03:43.520] uh just because of lack of movement, but [02:03:45.720] that doesn’t mean that I won’t be [02:03:47.120] simultaneously still doing the science [02:03:50.320] that I know once something becomes [02:03:52.160] available, that I can turn my science [02:03:54.200] back towards this. [02:03:56.480] Right? It’s just that right now things [02:03:57.880] seem a little static. [02:03:59.680] Yeah, but but you know, based on your [02:04:02.520] experience in in uh biotech, [02:04:05.840] I mean, let’s you know, for for fun, but [02:04:08.160] also seriously, let’s make some [02:04:09.760] predictions here or you should make some [02:04:11.720] predictions. I mean, [02:04:13.120] you’ve just seen two presidents. [02:04:16.280] Again, I’m going to put it this way. [02:04:17.880] They they exposed the whole thing to an [02:04:20.760] unwitting world. [02:04:22.120] You know, one one made a very direct [02:04:23.920] statement that got walked back, the [02:04:25.320] other said, “Hey, that’s classified [02:04:26.680] information.” Well, maybe I’ll get you [02:04:28.400] out of trouble and I’ll declassify, and [02:04:30.320] then you had [02:04:31.200] the prospect of an executive order [02:04:32.880] coming. [02:04:33.960] So, that that is going to shift the [02:04:37.280] media game, which has been the most [02:04:38.960] difficult part of this because people [02:04:41.160] that didn’t get reported enough, but [02:04:42.680] people are going to put two and two [02:04:43.800] together. Um [02:04:45.960] and there will be some kind of release [02:04:48.240] even if just, you know, videos, maybe [02:04:50.040] some records that will come. There will [02:04:52.440] be increasing awareness. So, what does [02:04:54.920] that do to [02:04:57.400] the people who have been sitting on the [02:04:58.840] sidelines, you know, with [02:05:02.240] with two presidents [02:05:04.480] exposed in the way they have, [02:05:07.280] that in in front of a mostly unwitting [02:05:10.040] world, [02:05:11.400] that okay, there is some federal [02:05:13.280] government knowledge of this. It’s [02:05:15.240] classified. Um people who have been [02:05:18.080] sitting on the sidelines, sometimes [02:05:20.760] watching carefully, sometimes just, [02:05:23.240] you know, listening now and then when [02:05:25.040] when they have the time, who have access [02:05:27.640] to enormous amounts of capital, [02:05:30.000] as they start to figure out what’s going [02:05:31.680] on, what’s your prediction for how that [02:05:34.600] alters what happens with federal [02:05:36.160] government and what happens with science [02:05:37.800] on this? [02:05:39.440] I again think that what it does is it [02:05:42.000] gives motivation to, let’s say, the [02:05:44.120] funders. Say at the NSF, National [02:05:46.200] Science Foundation, which probably is [02:05:48.320] the most likely place or the Department [02:05:51.320] of Defense, which does sometimes fund [02:05:53.560] well, often funds academics, to say, [02:05:55.760] “Okay, well, huh, [02:05:58.160] given what it is that two presidents [02:06:01.040] have just said and given, let’s say, [02:06:03.240] what [02:06:04.760] let’s say somebody at DARPA or somebody [02:06:07.160] in whatever agency might know [02:06:10.760] about some aspect of this. [02:06:13.480] Maybe there’s a way for us to get [02:06:17.120] more of this information out. They don’t [02:06:19.320] even need to tell the person that [02:06:21.160] they’re giving it to what it is that [02:06:22.360] they’re studying. And there’s been, of [02:06:23.920] course, [02:06:25.200] intimations this has been what’s been [02:06:26.760] going on all along that basically under [02:06:29.120] the cover of of some other reason, they [02:06:33.160] say go study in this area. We’re making [02:06:35.520] a you know, this is a discovery area. [02:06:37.880] But maybe that would motivate further [02:06:40.760] um the reach back into prior knowledge [02:06:44.800] to say, okay, well, given what the [02:06:46.480] president has said, maybe we’ve only [02:06:48.240] been able to reach down to the first [02:06:49.800] layer [02:06:50.880] of give. Maybe we can reach down two or [02:06:53.160] three more layers of ideas that we know [02:06:56.440] must be percolating down in here or [02:06:58.240] things that we’ve got and give that out [02:07:00.960] without even telling people what it is [02:07:02.400] that they’re doing. And so it I I I [02:07:04.440] think that it it it allows [02:07:07.560] more freedom [02:07:09.200] than previously has been available [02:07:11.600] before to [02:07:13.680] to not just release ideas or release [02:07:15.920] truth, but to release [02:07:19.040] directions and directionalities. Cuz [02:07:22.120] those directions are really cuz it comes [02:07:26.000] from above to say this is an area of [02:07:28.200] focus that the world should be working [02:07:30.560] in for [02:07:31.960] cancer or this kind of cancer or that [02:07:34.200] kind of cancer. I mean I was down in LA [02:07:37.320] giving a talk on artificial intelligence [02:07:39.240] and cancer last Friday that I got all [02:07:41.560] stressed out about that I had to give [02:07:43.520] this new talk in front of colleagues of [02:07:46.120] mine who I greatly respected. Um and [02:07:50.640] but the literally the night before [02:07:53.600] um [02:07:55.400] we had I had been [02:07:58.000] at a uh [02:08:00.800] a Lady Gaga [02:08:02.400] concert with all of them these [02:08:05.040] >> this is the secret of Gary Nolan that no [02:08:06.760] one knows is the night before your major [02:08:08.920] talk you’re out with your partner at a [02:08:11.080] Lady Gaga concert. [02:08:12.560] >> A friend of ours got us [02:08:15.840] um [02:08:17.160] we already had like front row [02:08:20.320] seats, but a friend of ours got us like [02:08:22.000] eight other seats that also involved an [02:08:24.520] opportunity to go behind the scenes [02:08:28.480] to we didn’t meet uh [02:08:31.280] Lady Gaga but to go behind the scenes [02:08:33.240] with all these other scientists that we [02:08:34.560] all we all went and that was right at [02:08:36.400] the time when all of this was going on [02:08:38.640] where the the announcement had just been [02:08:39.880] made Donald Trump said this and so I was [02:08:42.880] showing it to my colleagues who all had [02:08:47.040] often been [02:08:48.600] smirking [02:08:49.280] >> to say that’s kind of the ultimate [02:08:50.400] gloats opportunity huh? It was it was [02:08:52.600] like hey look look look you know they [02:08:55.080] were like okay you know so again it it [02:08:57.880] it wasn’t that anything like that [02:08:59.720] convinced them [02:09:01.680] but it opened their minds just a little [02:09:03.200] bit more [02:09:04.600] and so [02:09:07.040] you know that was the you know [02:09:09.720] that I see is the opportunity here is to [02:09:14.360] just is to [02:09:16.480] I mean humans work by credibility [02:09:18.280] factors [02:09:19.440] and we assign credibility to an idea [02:09:21.800] based on who is another you know we we [02:09:23.280] do whether we like it or not we do bow [02:09:26.080] to the authority of of [02:09:28.880] of specialization [02:09:30.800] or [02:09:32.680] you know the the authority of knowledge [02:09:35.320] or at least the authority of authority [02:09:38.240] and so if you know whether or not [02:09:41.480] President Trump is a [02:09:43.880] uh [02:09:45.160] quantum mechanics physicist doesn’t [02:09:47.600] matter [02:09:48.840] if he has control over [02:09:51.680] the release of information that [02:09:54.840] underpins some knowledge of the universe [02:09:56.840] that we don’t necessarily have today so [02:09:59.840] saying that such a thing might exist [02:10:02.760] opens opportunities and perhaps opens [02:10:04.680] the minds uh of [02:10:07.600] you know [02:10:08.640] stem students in the United States you [02:10:11.600] know science technology etc [02:10:14.840] um [02:10:15.440] and maybe that will motivate people a [02:10:16.840] little bit more [02:10:18.120] you know we have the coming [02:10:20.800] movie from [02:10:23.440] um [02:10:24.200] Spielberg [02:10:25.880] >> On disclosure. I mean, called I think I [02:10:27.600] I I think it’s called disclosure. [02:10:29.600] Day of disclosure. [02:10:30.960] >> Day of disclosure. [02:10:32.440] And so, [02:10:34.120] that’s going to [02:10:36.200] change the conversation just because of [02:10:37.680] who Steven Spielberg is. [02:10:40.560] Well, and [02:10:42.040] okay, so so you pointed out ways that [02:10:46.040] um, [02:10:47.720] the intelligence community could be, you [02:10:50.200] know, [02:10:51.120] let’s let’s say go to a deeper level of [02:10:53.000] what it might [02:10:55.560] release or could at least [02:10:57.960] point in certain directions that that [02:11:00.640] scientific science funding could go. [02:11:03.680] But I also have the question about [02:11:05.720] what’s going to happen [02:11:07.400] um, [02:11:08.240] with [02:11:09.520] with, you know, really big venture [02:11:11.920] capitalists and and investment people [02:11:15.720] when they really start to get the [02:11:17.640] direction of the wind here and go, wait [02:11:20.360] a second. Like, okay, I I don’t have [02:11:23.400] access to what [02:11:25.520] you know, some of the big defense [02:11:26.600] contractors might or potentially could. [02:11:29.480] Um, but I certainly have access to [02:11:31.320] capital and I want this to happen now [02:11:33.840] because I can profit from it and and [02:11:35.560] that that’s where I meant like I think [02:11:37.160] your experience in Silicon Valley and in [02:11:40.320] biotech um, probably put you in a good [02:11:43.560] position to predict about what could [02:11:45.080] happen if somebody just decides to jump [02:11:46.960] the line because they’ve got money and [02:11:48.240] they say, listen, we’re not I I don’t [02:11:50.080] want to waste time with this. I want to [02:11:51.360] figure out how to um, make advances in [02:11:53.960] technology in this in 10 years and I’ve [02:11:55.800] got the capital to do it. [02:11:57.720] So, um, I mean, I was in the room with, [02:12:01.680] you know, such an individual. Uh, you [02:12:04.680] know, after the [02:12:06.480] Lady Gaga party who was very interested [02:12:08.720] in this whole area. And although we [02:12:10.560] didn’t talk about it directly, I mean, [02:12:12.080] we talked about it slightly. Um, [02:12:15.880] such an individual would be the kind of [02:12:18.040] person who would say, “Okay, well, hm, [02:12:20.400] where does this exist?” Cuz he he can [02:12:22.600] mobilize billions. [02:12:24.880] Um, where does something like this [02:12:27.000] exist? Okay, well, Lockheed. So, they [02:12:29.680] would go to Lockheed and they would say, [02:12:31.760] “All right, [02:12:33.160] come on. [02:12:35.160] What do you have sitting in a drawer [02:12:36.680] that you don’t have any reason to do [02:12:39.840] anything with right now [02:12:41.680] that I could license from you?” [02:12:46.560] Right? I mean, so that would be [02:12:47.360] something to try. You mean in terms of [02:12:49.880] intellectual property? [02:12:51.040] >> Intellectual property. [02:12:51.880] >> Sitting unused. Okay. Yeah, just saying [02:12:54.680] you don’t even understand what it is. [02:12:56.720] But, [02:12:57.720] I’ll pay, [02:12:59.800] you know, I’ll put down a billion [02:13:01.040] dollars [02:13:02.840] to bring in a team of scientists to [02:13:04.280] understand what it is. [02:13:05.920] I mean, that’s a form of public-private [02:13:07.280] partnership that these, you know, these [02:13:09.240] these tech community I mean, these um [02:13:12.120] the defense contractors presumably now [02:13:14.360] own some of this stuff or have attained [02:13:15.920] some of it [02:13:17.120] um [02:13:18.080] independently, [02:13:19.480] right? Or the government has given up [02:13:21.280] rights to it for whatever reason. But, [02:13:24.280] you know, it’s just sort of sitting [02:13:25.720] there and for whatever reason the [02:13:28.480] balance sheets don’t motivate them to do [02:13:31.960] anything with it. [02:13:33.920] Because either they’re afraid of, you [02:13:36.240] know, of agenda-driven, you know, um [02:13:39.560] you know, [02:13:42.240] capitalization of where they where they [02:13:43.680] need to go or that there’s some stigma. [02:13:46.600] And hand it over to somebody else who’s [02:13:48.960] willing to accept the stigma and is [02:13:50.360] willing to put down the risk cuz this [02:13:52.040] all involves risk [02:13:53.760] and is willing to to fund the risk. [02:13:57.240] Uh, I mean, that’s I think where an [02:13:59.360] opportunity is. And And you know, and [02:14:01.920] And I know people who are thinking like [02:14:03.480] that. Mhm. Already. [02:14:05.560] Um, it’s just they need to be [02:14:08.920] So, maybe what President Trump’s [02:14:10.720] announcement does is further enable [02:14:14.320] that kind of flexible thinking. [02:14:16.800] Well, yeah. [02:14:18.720] And so, [02:14:20.560] you know, maybe to close up, I’d love to [02:14:22.400] hear you comment about what you think [02:14:25.040] then the the social benefit is, the [02:14:27.240] benefit to to human beings on on mass of [02:14:30.640] the advance of science and technology [02:14:33.440] related UAP or even directly about [02:14:36.760] you know, potential UAP materials and [02:14:38.800] technology and so on. You once said [02:14:42.760] in you’ve said a few times in my [02:14:44.440] presence but I don’t think publicly [02:14:47.880] that [02:14:49.000] you know, you would love to be one of [02:14:50.880] the people that figures out how to build [02:14:54.040] these things. [02:14:55.320] Oh, I would love. I mean, one thing I [02:14:57.680] know is that I’m I’m not as [02:15:00.200] knowledgeable [02:15:01.560] as [02:15:02.560] many people need to be [02:15:05.320] to put together [02:15:07.360] something new. But I do know that I’m [02:15:10.920] good at motivating others [02:15:13.400] to explore [02:15:16.240] you know, openly. [02:15:18.040] Um [02:15:20.240] I don’t need to be the one person or [02:15:23.480] even necessarily in the room when it’s [02:15:25.920] happening. But [02:15:28.120] I do know how to organize people into [02:15:31.080] teams that can accomplish it. [02:15:33.920] Well, and [02:15:34.840] and the reason I ask you this question [02:15:36.400] is you’re someone who has been involved [02:15:39.200] it can get lost as you’re talking about [02:15:41.400] the details of how science is done or [02:15:43.960] how invention happens. But you do cancer [02:15:46.840] research. [02:15:48.240] Right? You’re an immunologist. The the [02:15:50.360] social benefit is absolutely immense. [02:15:52.360] And I think you’re thinking along [02:15:53.560] similar lines here. We’re thinking the [02:15:55.720] social benefits of this are absolutely [02:15:57.720] immense. If you can mobilize the [02:15:59.400] resources, get the government buy-in and [02:16:01.320] you have the right scientists. [02:16:03.120] I think that to me at least the you [02:16:05.920] know, the the opportunity is [02:16:08.360] Uh well, there’s two things. One, [02:16:10.200] there’s the there’s the the benefit of [02:16:12.600] knowing that you can make it past the [02:16:14.160] impasse of this [02:16:16.040] uh of this im- [02:16:19.120] what everybody believes is this [02:16:20.440] dystopian future where we all fall off [02:16:22.400] the edge of the of the [02:16:23.920] world and we kill ourselves. [02:16:25.600] Right? And we and we know that we have [02:16:27.400] to keep our technology moving in a We [02:16:29.240] either We either revert to primitiveness [02:16:32.559] or we stop progress and stop capitalist [02:16:35.519] expansion or we accept the principle [02:16:37.920] that new knowledge uh helps us fix past [02:16:41.160] problems. [02:16:42.559] Um even though it will create future [02:16:44.480] problems. [02:16:45.719] And so, what I think that technology [02:16:48.800] like this represents is the ability to [02:16:51.200] fast forward uh some of the [02:16:54.440] the future benefit so that we could [02:16:56.599] future benefit faster than we create [02:16:58.360] problems [02:16:59.880] is is one way to think about it. Uh and [02:17:03.040] so, I again, that’s an opportunity I [02:17:05.519] don’t want to see lost. Um selfishly [02:17:10.519] I just want to I I [02:17:12.800] I want to see something so new that it [02:17:15.240] blows my mind. And that once I [02:17:17.280] understand a little bit of it, I can use [02:17:19.040] it for cancer research, for instance. I [02:17:21.639] mean, if I can make an instrument that [02:17:23.880] better looks inside of a cell [02:17:26.360] you know, at a distance [02:17:28.240] uh without having to take the cell apart [02:17:30.559] in the first place, that would be great. [02:17:32.200] I mean literally 10, 15 years ago, I [02:17:35.040] proposed in front of a whole, you know, [02:17:37.280] audience of uh [02:17:39.599] nature and cell editors, etc., saying [02:17:41.800] that I believe that there’s going to be [02:17:43.840] a be a way to use quantum um information [02:17:47.480] at a distance to measure things without [02:17:49.360] even going there. [02:17:50.760] And everybody sort of laughed at me and [02:17:52.160] giggled, “Oh, there’s Gary again.” Well, [02:17:53.519] here we are 10 years later and people [02:17:54.880] are doing it. [02:17:55.960] And not that I did it but I could see [02:17:58.639] that it could happen. [02:18:00.559] And so, um you know, I think that you [02:18:03.200] always need people who are just crazy [02:18:06.200] enough to imagine a future like that, [02:18:08.960] but able enough to see when the data is [02:18:12.120] off the curve that it shouldn’t be [02:18:13.760] ignored. And that’s the other thing is [02:18:15.800] that is that it’s the it’s the it’s the [02:18:18.760] stuff that you don’t understand is more [02:18:20.320] important than the stuff that you do [02:18:21.599] understand. [02:18:22.840] Especially in science. And so, [02:18:26.080] there’s a hell of a lot, if any of this [02:18:28.040] is true, of stuff we don’t understand [02:18:30.280] that [02:18:31.400] could be the fuel for things that we [02:18:34.440] will understand and help humanity. I [02:18:37.080] mean, at the end of the day, that’s all [02:18:38.200] I really care about. I want to I mean, I [02:18:40.599] am tribal enough to want to see the [02:18:42.040] United States benefit first, [02:18:44.719] but I am [02:18:46.160] human enough to know that that will [02:18:48.920] eventually flow [02:18:50.880] uh better for uh everybody else. [02:18:53.960] Okay. Uh amazing. And And [02:18:57.160] maybe this is the place to close is, you [02:18:59.559] know, you said that it’s the data that [02:19:01.679] you’re not looking at and that you don’t [02:19:03.200] understand, which is the most important [02:19:04.639] stuff. I think, you know, part of the [02:19:06.200] problem [02:19:07.719] with [02:19:08.840] the entire endeavor of UAP research and [02:19:11.840] and disclosure and so on is that um [02:19:15.240] we don’t even understand what the [02:19:16.400] problem is. And I say that because as I [02:19:18.599] was listening to you say, “Look, I I I [02:19:21.920] thought I should look for magnesium. I [02:19:24.519] should I thought I should be analyzing [02:19:25.960] magnesium cuz I was told it was [02:19:27.559] magnesium, but then I discover it’s 99, [02:19:30.160] you know, 0.99 silicon.” [02:19:33.120] Is that, you know, okay, that happened [02:19:35.800] because you didn’t know what the problem [02:19:37.120] was. The problem fundamentally, I mean, [02:19:39.240] fun of the fundamental problem was, [02:19:41.320] “Okay, how do you study a material which [02:19:44.639] may be an effective artifice, not [02:19:47.599] nature.” [02:19:48.120] >> Right. Right. [02:19:48.760] >> And what are the questions then? [02:19:51.160] Right. And I I don’t even know that the [02:19:52.920] silicon that I have, even measured at [02:19:56.240] the atomic level, doesn’t have an order [02:19:59.280] that because I’m measuring it with [02:20:01.000] noise, doesn’t have an order that [02:20:02.920] actually has some print has some [02:20:04.560] function. [02:20:05.800] And so, there might be with better [02:20:08.360] understanding of how the atomic [02:20:10.400] structure of the silicon is, I might [02:20:11.880] understand something different about it [02:20:14.000] that it’s not just it’s not just your [02:20:15.960] everyday silicon. [02:20:17.480] So, I still need to go another level [02:20:19.840] deeper [02:20:21.160] of analysis of that. And that seems to [02:20:23.760] me exemplary of what all the problems [02:20:26.720] are going to be here, which is that that [02:20:28.960] we’re we’re so unfamiliar with the [02:20:30.840] problem we don’t even know what the [02:20:32.200] problem space is yet. [02:20:33.600] >> Right. Um [02:20:34.600] and we talk as if we know. We talk as [02:20:36.880] if, you know, even the social and [02:20:38.760] political problem disclosure, we talk [02:20:40.440] like we understand it, but [02:20:42.400] we we we you know, I I think there are [02:20:45.000] very few people that have even put their [02:20:46.640] finger on the problem yet. [02:20:48.040] >> Yeah. [02:20:49.040] Well, we’ll see. [02:20:51.080] Well, anyway, I think that’s a good [02:20:52.680] great place to stop and you know, [02:20:54.360] amazing conversation and [02:20:56.240] >> Yeah. I think you’ve given tons of of [02:20:59.560] food for thought to to a lot of people. [02:21:02.400] So, that was great. [02:21:03.200] >> Yeah. Thanks.