Sound, Light & Frequency #16 — “Deal or No Deal” (Brett Leonard’s account)
Source: Sound, Light & Frequency (iHeart Podcast, produced by Stellar Productions), Episode #16, “Deal or No Deal — Sound, Light & Frequency.” Hosts/executive producers Bryce Zabel and Brent Friedman (co-creators of NBC’s 1996 series Dark Skies); guest Brett Leonard (film director — The Lawnmower Man, Hideaway, Virtuosity). Exec produced by Nick Johnson; for Stellar, Jackie Zabel. URL: https://youtu.be/hxltEtjtFKo (YouTube upload by Stellar Productions, dated 2026-06-08; ~1:07:00). Captured: 2026-06-07. Full verbatim auto-transcript (timestamps retained; speaker turns not labeled in source — Zabel, Friedman, and Leonard alternate; ASR misspellings preserved, e.g. “Bryce Sable”=Bryce Zabel, “Brent Freriedman”=Brent Friedman, “Manatulan”=Manitoulin, “Waznjak”=Wozniak, “Kotkkey”=Kottke). Provenance only; analysis lives in government-ufo-disinformation. What this is: the series’ first outside “witness.” Leonard recounts being approached (~early 1990s, after The Lawnmower Man) via a NASA Ames contact (“Bob”) by an anonymous man — card with only a name + a 310 number — who, after deflecting CIA/DoD/FBI, claimed NSA, showed Leonard a thick personal dossier (read as implicit leverage), and offered to feed him insider UFO material to weave into his storytelling (“slow drip disclosure”); Leonard ghosted him. Presented as corroboration of Zabel & Friedman’s own claim that a man (“JC,” claiming Office of Naval Intelligence) crashed their Dark Skies premiere party (~1996) with the same offer. Themes raised: disinformation vs. authentic-government-appeal vs. alien/“walk-in/shell person”; an “MMRPG built around us”; the Cicada 3301 ARG; Spielberg’s Day of Disclosure; the “Quickening.”
[00:00:00.080] So far, you’ve heard Brandon me tell our story. The night a guy showed up at our [00:00:04.000] Hollywood TV premiere party, claimed he worked for a national intelligence [00:00:07.760] group and offered a well, let’s just say a very specific kind of cooperation. Now, [00:00:13.440] that story has always lived on the fault line between show business and government, [00:00:17.840] between that’s impossible and wait that kind of tracks. And the only way to deal with it all [00:00:24.000] honestly is to keep looking for corroboration, for patterns, for independent accounts. It’s one thing [00:00:30.800] to talk about ourselves. It’s another thing when someone else says, “Yeah, that happened to me, [00:00:35.440] too.” So today, for the first time on this podcast and on camera, we have another Hollywood creative, [00:00:40.960] a film director, who says he was approached in a remarkably similar way to what happened to us. [00:00:47.120] And whether you think this is disclosure, manipulation, mythmaking, or all three, [00:00:52.320] this is the kind of firsthand account that sharpens the entire conversation. [00:01:14.960] I’m Bryce Sable. Have you ever wondered if there’s a secret connection between [00:01:18.720] Hollywood and UFOs? I’m Brent Freriedman and you’re listening to Sound, Light, [00:01:23.360] and Frequency. We like to think that our show is an active investigation into this [00:01:27.760] issue and today we’re bringing our first witness to the stand. [00:01:44.000] So, I’m thrilled to bring my good friend Brett Leonard to our show today. Uh, I met Brett back [00:01:50.640] in the late 80s, I think it was, uh, through a mutual friend in LA, and it was right after he [00:01:56.320] had made his first feature, The Dead Pit. Being a big horror buff, we became fast friends. And I [00:02:03.040] really I like to think of it as having a front row seat to watching Brett’s career take off after he [00:02:08.720] made the lawnmower man as it was for me watching yours. Thank you. Same thing. Um and that was an [00:02:15.120] adaptation of a Stephen King short story where he got to show off that he was much more than [00:02:20.480] a filmmaker. He’s always been an innovator. And in Lawnmower Man, he took the concept of virtual [00:02:26.400] reality to a level no one had ever brought to the screen before. After that, he went on to direct [00:02:32.240] some features, including Hideaway, which was an adaptation of a Dean Coun horror novel starring [00:02:37.520] Jeff Goldblum, among others, and uh Virtuosity, sci-fi thriller starring Denzel Washington and [00:02:44.080] Russell Crowe. Power Cast, if there ever was one. Um, but he’s done much more than movies. Um, [00:02:49.600] he’s been working on the bleeding edge of cinema and technology for decades. I remember being blown [00:02:55.360] away the first time I saw the 3D IMAX dinosaur movie that you made. I also think you’re probably [00:03:00.640] one of the only people who’s ever made a CGI music video to Peter Gabriel’s The Kiss That Frog, no [00:03:06.800] less, that was also a ride simulator and then also went on to win an MTV movie award. Am I correct? [00:03:14.320] I think you’re correct because I have had a very strange career. Anyway, um we’re thrilled to have [00:03:21.040] you here on the show and there’s so many things we can talk about, but I want to start first with [00:03:27.120] what happened to you when you got offered your deal. Let’s take us back to the very beginning in [00:03:32.400] the context of this particular podcast, which is the deal with who knows what from who knows where. [00:03:40.880] Um, and you know, it’s interesting because you just gave a little of the history and you know, [00:03:45.360] uh, I was again also watching Brent, uh, career start to take off after having, you know, slept on [00:03:52.160] the couch of our friend, our mutual friend Randy Fontana’s couch for about 5 years, you know, cold [00:03:56.960] calling everyone in Hollywood and, uh, watching us, you know, and Brent was working on scripts [00:04:01.840] and and, uh, mostly at horror at that time and we were just, uh, you know, scrapping away trying to [00:04:08.000] get into this this crazy business which was an amazing business in the n in the 80s90s when [00:04:15.040] we started getting into it uh in in you know in retrospect looking back at that period definitely [00:04:20.880] an interesting time that is gone now it’s a very different business than it was what happened is [00:04:26.640] we both actually attained success and part of that weird success or the weird thing that came [00:04:32.400] with that was suddenly these people came out of the woodwork you know and and when I heard about [00:04:39.680] what hap I just recently heard uh the story from from from Brent and and uh and Bryce, you know, [00:04:47.360] about what they were dealing with. I suddenly was taken back to this thing that I almost kind [00:04:53.600] of put in a a a place in my history that I didn’t go to think about much because it was such a weird [00:05:02.320] experience and it was almost kind of like out of a movie itself. It was like it was like is [00:05:08.560] Hollywood really this self-reflective? You know that that I remember thinking that at the time [00:05:13.280] I was researching Lawnmower Man and part of the researching of Lawn Man was to research virtual [00:05:18.320] reality technology and one of the places that had the most advanced virtual reality technology on [00:05:23.760] the planet was a place called the Ames Research Center which is uh south of San Francisco. Uh [00:05:29.600] it’s connected to NASA, NASA as uh it has got the biggest flight simulation system I think in the [00:05:36.160] world at that time anyway. Uh and that was the most advanced virtual reality system. It was a [00:05:41.920] 30 million virtual [00:10:35.120] reality simulation flight simulation system and talking to me about VR and my thoughts on VR. I [00:10:41.360] mean, it was it became very wide ranging and I actually, you know, through that process, [00:10:45.280] I I made a lot of friends at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory at JPL. uh you know I got involved in [00:10:51.040] that that kind of that kind of group of people because I you know uh I could I could I could [00:10:56.160] talk story with them you know I could I could we could kibbitz about a lot of different things. And [00:11:01.840] at one point just part of the Bob story that Brent just reminded me of in the context of doing this [00:11:10.480] uh flight simulation demo. Suddenly there was a demo of something that was very surprising. [00:11:19.200] It was suddenly a demo of this craft came into the frame of the the the fighter jet simulation [00:11:27.360] with what can only be described as non-ballistic movement and it was zipping around and and then [00:11:33.760] there was all these like indicators going on and there was all this cuz I wasn’t flying you know [00:11:38.240] this is me getting experience of the flying in the in I think the right-hand seat while the simulator [00:11:43.760] was being flown by someone else and he goes yeah this is a special program we have and And I’m [00:11:49.120] like, for for uh for for unique and interesting circumstances, I’m like, okay, first of all, [00:11:55.200] this is a $30 million flight simulation system. It’s the highest end virtual in the world, and [00:12:00.400] they’re showing UFOs on this thing as part of the simulation for flight training. Uh that was very, [00:12:07.920] very strange cuz I asked him, are these UFOs? And he just smiled. Right. So uh yeah, but but I’m I’m [00:12:14.560] telling you there is no way there was any these were, you know, MIGs. This was not about that kind [00:12:20.400] of this was a totally non-bic movement. It was showing uh a visual that that had, you know, weird [00:12:27.600] colors. There was a there was a a a level to it that literally felt like it was a special effect [00:12:32.480] out of a science fiction film. Except Brett, before at the time that you were first shown this, [00:12:37.360] what was your opinion about UFOs? Did you have any feelings about them one way or the other? Yes, [00:12:42.720] I I have experienced two major times in my life. Absolutely. Experienced what I know was something [00:12:49.840] that was otherworldly. One was on Manatulan Island and I was there with my uh family and with another [00:12:57.200] family uh and I’ll never forget all of us watched this thing in the sky and it was a brilliant sky [00:13:05.200] because Manulan was very very isolated wilderness place you know in the middle of one of the great [00:13:10.000] lakes and I we watched you know I think I was 10 years old 101 and we watched it for several hours [00:13:19.200] it was it was it was going all over the sky. It would go to the other side of the island. It was [00:13:25.760] definitely experiencing non, you know, expressing non-ballistic movement. I didn’t know what that [00:13:30.320] was at that time. Of course, I didn’t have the ability to express it, but uh and I remember even [00:13:35.680] my father who was a science teacher, very very empirical guy. Okay, this is not a guy that’s [00:13:42.960] prone to flights of fancy, let’s put it that way. Um he was truly intrigued and thought, [00:13:51.280] you know what, this is something absolutely different than normal aircraft. And because we [00:13:56.880] launched it for so long, it became a kind of real foundation for me of just believing that there was [00:14:04.080] something out there that that was different that that was, you know, what we call UFOs at the time, [00:14:09.440] you know, and and just that was always something informing me. Then one at one point, this is a [00:14:15.840] an amazing weird story. Later on when I was about 15 years old, I took my father’s Audi Fox car out [00:14:25.440] of the driveway where very late at night with my friend Joel Hazard and we just did it to go [00:14:31.840] driving out into sort of the the corn fields on the outskirts of Toledo just to do it. I think [00:14:38.080] we’re going to smoke a joint, you know. And 15, you said without a license. Yes. Yes. out of no [00:14:43.680] totally without license. And and we we pushed the car out the driveway silently. Now again, [00:14:50.160] if my father had caught me doing this, I thought probably my life would be over, right? So this [00:14:55.040] was actually a very I think we were out at Oakings and we were driving down this dark road just like [00:15:01.360] out of Close Encounters, literally like the one that Roy Ner is going down when the the railroad [00:15:07.440] uh signs go crazy. And I’ll never and I saw again a non-bin thing come zipping it stop and then as [00:15:16.960] soon as it stopped the car died. Everything about it died. What? Wait a minute. And then it zipped [00:15:26.800] away and that car did not come back to life until after it went to the So my father did find out I [00:15:34.560] stole the car. My father can can actually uh and those aliens substantiate this this story [00:15:41.200] because there’s no way I would have called him. You know, literally I I I remember we had to walk [00:15:45.280] to a farmhouse and it was about dawn and my dad got up early because he was an elementary school [00:15:49.680] principal at that time and I called him and he answered the phone, “Where’s the car?” So, and it [00:15:55.840] literally all of the electrical system was fried in the car. Wow. Okay. That’s just like Close [00:16:01.920] Encounters. It was literally when I saw Close Encounters which was after that not many years [00:16:07.440] after that actually it was I literally had this flash that I experienced that that scene because [00:16:15.520] in close encounters Roy Ner’s car comes back to life so at least he didn’t have to face anybody [00:16:21.360] hold and and I remember my grandpa father had to come out and get it towed to an electrical place [00:16:27.760] and it was like it was it was a big rigomearroll and you know of course my dad didn’t want to hear [00:16:32.560] telling any stories about UFOs. I mean, you know, he he just, you know, whatever you did, [00:16:38.720] you you you ruined my car, you know. Um, plus I was 15 and didn’t have a license, so, you know, [00:16:43.920] anyway, bad bad boy. uh you know so so that those those experiences and there were a few others [00:16:50.320] uh in my more adult life uh that h have made me feel absolutely there are things going on [00:16:57.440] in our skies that are definitely in the realm of of UAPs and going back to the flight simulator [00:17:05.040] um what you saw was clearly similar um in terms of the movement and everything to what you’d seen [00:17:12.160] in real life exactly that’s why I knew That’s how I had a correlation to it. It was like, [00:17:17.280] wait a minute, that that reminds me of being on Manatulan Island and watching. I want to drill [00:17:22.400] just one step deeper on that, though, because you’ve seen that you’ve seen two things. And you [00:17:27.360] know, sometimes you don’t see them up close and personal like you might in a flight simulator. [00:17:31.840] Was the flight simulator version literally like right out your window and you’re seeing structure [00:17:38.000] in a craft kind of thing? It was. It was not too much structure. It was a little It was definitely [00:17:43.840] round and it was flashing lights. So, it was not a normal aircraft. It definitely was not [00:17:48.720] a normal aircraft, but but it didn’t show a lot of structural detail. Okay. Okay. Uh what was what it [00:17:53.600] was doing though was flying non-ballistically and then the simulator of the the fighter jet that I [00:18:00.240] was in was obviously adjusting to that that movement, right? So, the guy was, you know, [00:18:05.360] sort of playing with this thing and that was what it felt like. It felt like, you know, they [00:18:10.880] were they were playing with something. I I asked a bunch of questions. And Bob said, “Look, this is [00:18:16.320] uh there’s some people there’s somebody I want you to meet. That’s that’s why it kind of led to this [00:18:21.440] this idea.” And then I, as I was saying before, I kind of didn’t uh go for that. I didn’t I didn’t [00:18:29.200] uh pursue that very much. But what happened was the movie was a big sort of phenomenon. It was a [00:18:35.680] hit and a kind of phenomenon at the same time. And suddenly out of the out of the blue, Bob [00:18:41.040] gives me a call and says, “Look, I’ve got a guy um that I want you to meet.” I got a guy literally [00:18:48.160] literally was it was almost that it was almost like that, you know. I got a guy like exact. Yeah, [00:18:52.720] exactly. Like this was you’re talking like this is probably almost a year after you’d met Bob, right? [00:18:59.040] You were still researching. It was like a year and a half. It was a year to a year and a half. Yeah. [00:19:04.080] which was again sent a chill down my spine because the fact that someone was reaching out to me now [00:19:10.640] that I had a successful film I was like going wow this this is something there’s something actually [00:19:16.160] happening here that’s connected to the fact that I have put something out in the world that people [00:19:21.520] have actually seen and that thing has a lot of you know concepts in it that are related to government [00:19:27.920] are related to secret research all of those things so I I was constantly going am I in trouble I [00:19:33.440] can you know am I in trouble? Uh you know and so my whole thing was look man I’m just assign [00:19:38.640] I’m just telling festival stories and you know of course I was actually trying to base it in real [00:19:43.840] technology more than most. Uh that was one of the reasons I think it was on their radar is because I [00:19:49.360] was using actual real virtual reality technology. I was showing sort of the real thing and the more [00:19:54.960] fantastical element of it simultaneously which is kind of rare uh in science fiction. So there [00:20:00.240] was very much science fact in that movie as much as there was science fiction. And uh and so that [00:20:07.120] brought about this connection to this this person that was introduced to me by Bob and I uh I got [00:20:13.360] a call uh let’s meet and I went and met him. Uh I can’t remember his name. I I remember he did give [00:20:23.360] me a card. I asked him I he and I think I heard in your story a thing about a car that didn’t have [00:20:28.960] much on it. That was exactly my same experience. Exactly. Our guy was JC, right? That’s all that’s [00:20:34.800] all the card said was JC do the 310 number. This was this was a guy’s name and a number and I and [00:20:42.400] I I one of the things I kept trying to get from him was who do you work for? Who the [00:20:48.640] freak am I talking to here? you know, I mean, cuz I was again in the back of my mind going, [00:20:54.640] “Does this end with me and leg irons?” You know, I I had no idea what the hell was going on. And I, [00:21:00.720] you know, I got comfortable talking with him. And he eventually, like we went through all the, [00:21:05.760] you know, DoD, CIA, FBI, eventually landed on NSA. He said, “Well, the main agency I work for [00:21:14.480] is the NSA.” The main So he Wow. So he worked for multiple agencies. Yeah. Yeah. Basically, [00:21:20.800] it was and and I don’t know if that was just him sort of giving me a, you know, a red herring or [00:21:27.840] not. I don’t know if he because I tried to lock him down to CIA cuz I really felt like this feels [00:21:33.040] like CIA to me. And and he wouldn’t lock down to that. And he finally he said if you I work [00:21:39.920] for the NSA and and the NSA is a very secretive group. Uh you know, it’s about signals uh signals [00:21:45.920] intelligence more than anything. And that’s why we’re talking with people uh in the Hollywood [00:21:50.720] environment because there are things that you’re dealing with because you’re you’re looking at [00:21:57.600] actual science. You’re looking at things that are more fanciful in nature and there are things [00:22:02.480] we are doing in the government that actually connect to the kind of things you’re talking about [00:22:06.640] including what you saw in that simulator. And he referenced the experience I had in the simulator. [00:22:13.280] So he referenced the quote unquote alien aspect of it as just part of, you know, sort of part and [00:22:18.880] parcel of this overall thing. And we want to know if you’d like to work with us or, you know, he he [00:22:24.960] was just wanting to do this connection and kind of like the the uh the idea that I would be able to, [00:22:31.840] you know, see things that others didn’t get to see that could maybe inform my stories. And he was [00:22:38.480] very seductive. very seductive. But that also was weird because he didn’t feel like a cop. He didn’t [00:22:45.040] feel like an FBI guy. He didn’t feel he felt like someone trying to seduce me in a direction with [00:22:51.200] and and I couldn’t get a handle on what was the actual purpose of that? like are you trying to [00:22:58.720] use me for propaganda or are you actually someone trying to get some truth out through the Hollywood [00:23:05.280] connection because I’m a at that time you know a younger Hollywood film director and there’s [00:23:10.480] you know we’re interested in these sort of things and uh you know so when I heard your story Brent [00:23:15.920] it was literally reactivated that chill down my spine because it was so many things that you know [00:23:23.680] obviously different on on so many levels but so so many things that were very similar in terms of the [00:23:28.960] vibe in terms of the the overall sort of mystery of the experience. Now my reaction to that again [00:23:35.920] after I had experienced him was to hide from it. I I I wanted to just get on with my work. I I I [00:23:44.080] I was worried that if I got down some rabbit hole with this that I’m working for the government. I [00:23:51.760] mean I I you know that wasn’t really something I wanted to do. And he did kind of almost make [00:23:57.280] it seem like that. Um, even in this court of seduction part, there was all, you know, there’s [00:24:02.960] ways you can make money doing this. There’s, you know, there there was all these kinds of things [00:24:07.120] that he was sort of playing with in his uh in his pitch that came off of my questions. You know, [00:24:13.360] I was very very in, you know, like questioning of what the hell was going on here. And so, uh, [00:24:20.640] you know, there he reached out a couple different times, but part of what he did, uh, in that first, [00:24:27.200] um, meeting or was it the second? I think it was the second meeting. There was two meetings. [00:24:34.400] And again, this is this I’m unearthing this in my because I literally buried it. I I kind of buried [00:24:40.720] it and and didn’t, you know, didn’t pursue it. So, it was something that got reactivated when uh [00:24:46.320] when I heard your story. He showed me my dossier, your and he my dossier your intelligence dossier [00:24:55.920] was this thick. Whoa. And every movie I had ever rented was listed. Uh all of these things that [00:25:04.400] were really like personal going back to my high school days. I mean, and I’m like, is this NSA? [00:25:11.440] Is this, you know, well, just call it your FBI dossier. FBI? Wait a minute. Am I doing something [00:25:16.400] wrong? you know, so he was very very like um he was constantly shifting the story a little bit, [00:25:23.600] right? So I couldn’t fully land on exactly what is this and yet he was also trying to seduce me [00:25:30.320] into being part of something even though for me I wanted specific answers. I wanted to know what the [00:25:38.400] hell am I working for? What is the purpose? Why? And that’s just not what his energy was. That it [00:25:44.400] was kind of like ah that’s that’s kind of cute and funny that you’re asking those questions, [00:25:49.040] Brett, but you know that’s just not the way it works. You know, I’m like oh well that’s the way [00:25:53.840] I work. You know, I’m I’m sorry. I can’t just give myself to something without knowing what the you [00:25:59.680] know the sort of moral framework of it is and all these other things. And so when I saw the dossier, [00:26:05.600] I realized, holy [ __ ] this is a real thing. This is actually connected to me being someone that’s [00:26:15.200] had a lot of people see my work that I, you know, because of there being some success there and I’m [00:26:21.520] making a hit film that had scientific components and all these ideas in it that I was now in this [00:26:29.120] sort of track, you know, and that terrified me. I did not want to be on that track. I wanted to be [00:26:38.560] doing what I wanted to do in my own way without having to be in that track and be working. So I [00:26:44.720] literally kind of almost aggressively ran the other way is what happened. How long How long [00:26:50.800] from the time where you sat down with him, I guess, for the second time and and heard [00:26:55.440] the pitch. How long from that time to when you felt that you had to make a decision and you had [00:27:00.560] to just get off the fence and tell the guy you weren’t interested? No, right away. And I never [00:27:05.680] fully told him. I just I did a fade. I I mean, I I basically ghosted him. Yeah. I mean, and you know, [00:27:12.080] I was moving. I you know, I I was getting more money at that time in my life. You know, [00:27:16.560] I had more flexibility. I I was able to, you know, go to Hawaii and live there for multiple months in [00:27:22.880] the jungle and then come back and make a movie. I mean, to say I lived a crazy wild life of a film [00:27:28.880] director would be an understatement. I I I won’t I won’t get into all the detail, but just letting me [00:27:33.920] tell you. I have I have a good imagination. Let me just say one word. Colonel Curts. Anyway Anyway, [00:27:39.520] I get the I I totally get the idea that you said, “I don’t want to do it.” But my question also is, [00:27:45.920] did you at least a night or two, stay up late, and consider the possibility that you would in [00:27:52.960] fact need to take this cuz it was so unusual. And so many night, many nights, many nights. [00:27:58.640] And actually there were times there were times when I would later after sort of assuring this [00:28:06.000] I would sort of kick myself and think well damn it maybe I should have you know maybe this is [00:28:11.280] benign maybe this is some part of that structure reaching out to me because I was a storyteller [00:28:17.600] and and who knows maybe they reached out to HG Wells and they reached out to Jules Vern and they [00:28:23.040] reached out to you know and I’m just you know I’m I could have been in that line of communication [00:28:28.320] you know, and I mean, there was all those thoughts, you know, it’s like, [00:28:31.200] but I I must say I go by my own instinct, and there was something off. There was something a [00:28:37.680] little off. And I don’t know if you guys felt that or not, but there was something a little off. Now, [00:28:42.720] the thing that it might be off that I think now, he could have been an alien. It’s so [00:28:50.080] funny. It’s so funny that you say that because I you know, that rings a bell. I yeah, it for for [00:28:57.040] years when Bryce and I would talk about this and reminisce about JC and and and the party crasher, [00:29:04.640] um it was always like, well, was he really who he said he was? Was he really O and I uh was or was [00:29:10.640] it a hoax or and then it wasn’t until years later when I told my daughter the story, right? And she [00:29:16.320] was in her 20s at that point and without a beat, she said, “Well, how do you know he was human?” [00:29:21.840] And I kind of was taken aback because at that point, you know, now we’re hearing all these [00:29:27.360] stories about hybrid programs and humans that are living amongst us as aliens. Exactly. And [00:29:32.880] so I can’t completely rule that out. Look, let me let me say it in the way that I experienced it. [00:29:40.880] The the weird feeling I got was not a weird feeling that was necessarily evil, right? [00:29:49.040] It was a weird feeling like there was a strange glint in his eye kind of thing like like there [00:29:55.680] was something there and again because the story kind of bounced around and in its factual nature [00:30:01.200] and the way he was presenting it didn’t feel had a it didn’t have a continuity with the rest of my [00:30:09.440] normal human experience with people right it was it was like interesting this is on the outside of [00:30:15.360] it was just odd and now I look at it And I go, that oddness was kind of a feeling of alieness. [00:30:23.040] It was feeling like it was was it somebody, you know, and I’ve now, you know, researched all kinds [00:30:28.080] of things about walk-ins and all kind, you know, all kinds of, you know, aspects and I’m going, [00:30:33.120] was that, you know, a shell person that I was talking to? And the more I think that, of course, [00:30:41.120] quality of memory is an interesting immutable thing. um the more I feel like there were things [00:30:47.680] about it that absolutely fit that idea and because of that there’s some of my regret is there. It’s [00:30:58.000] kind of like the regret. I was Roy Ner gonna get onto the mother ship and then I said no. You know, [00:31:03.920] I mean that’s a, you know, hyperbole, but it’s still a feeling of that like I I I kind of said [00:31:09.680] no to something because I felt it was outside of my experience that would that would be something I [00:31:16.800] could control. And so because I wanted to control where my you know my career was going and how I [00:31:24.080] wanted to tell stories and I I I I pushed it away. But was I pushing away something that would have [00:31:30.080] been an absolutely unique experience? You know, let me just throw this one thought out there. Uh, [00:31:36.240] I get the alien part of it, but uh, for my own take when this guy JC approached us, my first [00:31:45.200] take was this guy’s got to be putting this on. I mean, it just seemed too radical happening to us. [00:31:52.880] And and then and then uh, we saw him a second time as as you did, but then I started to go, it sure [00:32:00.800] seems a little more real than that. But I never thought alien. So my I guess there aren’t there’s [00:32:06.800] three options in this thing. One is disinformation or hoax. The other is authentic government appeal. [00:32:15.680] And for me the outlier was the alien thing because I thought the guy acted pretty human and I I I was [00:32:21.680] willing to buy into that story. I just I just wasn’t clear what their angle was. So was the [00:32:29.280] disinfo versus real government approach part of your debate? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, [00:32:34.400] that was that was the maj that was how I was thinking then. And and it’s interesting you [00:32:38.640] said you thought was he putting you on at first with Bob. I thought Bob was kind of joking with [00:32:44.000] me right at the at the as he followed up later after the film came out and was like saying I [00:32:50.400] wanted you know I realized oh it’s not a joke. He wouldn’t go to this elaborate you know thing to [00:32:55.360] do that. And then when I met the guy, at first I thought, “Oh, maybe this is a who knows. Is [00:33:02.080] this some comedy team doing something, you know? I mean, literally, because it was weird.” The moment [00:33:08.240] that cemented it for me was when he showed me my dossier. A physical thing. Yeah. A physical thing. [00:33:15.360] Did you flip through it? Did you flip through this thing? Like for a while. Like I got to He let me [00:33:20.080] look at it for a while and it was incredibly comprehensive. So someone put that together [00:33:27.360] that was serious, you know, it it it wasn’t out of nowhere. It wasn’t something that was, you know, [00:33:33.200] put together as a gag thing. It was real. And did you feel like when I when I hear you say that, [00:33:40.000] I get, you know, kind of go up on my hunches and because it feels like a threat. It feels like a [00:33:47.360] here’s everything we know about you. Yes. and we can use it for you or against and the way he said [00:33:53.200] it was like, “Oh, I got something to show you.” You know, it was like at some point in the and [00:33:58.240] then what? Boom. Right. And I’m like, even though it didn’t wasn’t overtly feeling threatening, the [00:34:07.920] whole thing felt threatening. That’s why I that’s why I backed away, you know, because I I felt if [00:34:14.800] I keep going and really poking this bear, what’s this bear going to turn into? And at that point, [00:34:21.360] I didn’t think alien, but but later on that came to be more of the thought process. Brad, I want [00:34:28.960] to ask you how you felt about something. Um, yeah, I I know when this was happening to me and Brent, [00:34:34.160] I didn’t even know the phrase at that point. The MMRPG, isn’t that massive multiplayer role [00:34:40.000] playing game? Role playing game. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So later when I was aware of that term, [00:34:46.560] I always felt like Brent and I had been targeted by somebody that had built an MMRPG around us and [00:34:53.840] that whatever their motivations were, whether they were, I guess, disinformation or the real thing [00:34:59.680] or I guess even now alien or whatever, somebody had put some time into the approach to us that [00:35:06.400] exceeded casualness. It exceeded somebody being in their parents’ basement looking for a lark. [00:35:12.000] It seemed like it was welllaid out and that’s why I find uh the thing about them having their file [00:35:19.680] on you and it I mean yes did you see anything in the file that was incorrect that would make you [00:35:26.720] not one thing not one thing was incorrect. It was a serious like some law enforcement agency [00:35:33.920] has and it was and he basically was saying like well because you made this hit film dealing with [00:35:38.560] science and it has government ideas this is just what we do and that’s pretty threatening [00:35:43.520] stuff and he and he was suggesting that that was a normal thing for people in Hollywood that I should [00:35:49.600] just you know accept that and that the NSA was had those kinds that kind of uh information on people. [00:35:56.000] I don’t believe and I think I believe you. I don’t believe that the NSA has that. The [00:36:01.760] one part of this story that I’ve mostly told other people and you if you talk to many friends of mine [00:36:06.400] was the fact that this guy showed me my dossier at one point after I had a hit film that was the [00:36:12.080] distillation the story got down to because it was such a radical moment. It was like what? Oh man. [00:36:19.360] you know, uh I guess there’s a there’s a sacrifice you make when you get into the public eye and [00:36:24.880] you put out ideas out there that, you know, are beyond what you, you know, traditionally think, [00:36:29.600] unless you’re watching science fiction movies that have these kinds of plots all the time. I mean, [00:36:34.560] it’s like out of war games or, you know, I mean, it’s, you know, it’s it’s it that’s [00:36:38.800] why it felt so self-reflective to me. It felt like I was in a movie of my own movie career, [00:36:47.200] you know. Yeah. Right. That’s how Brent, you and I felt that. That’s I mean, I remember saying that [00:36:52.800] to you at the time, feeling like I I feel like not only are we having this interaction with [00:36:58.480] this person, but that other people were observing the interaction. It wasn’t just the event itself, [00:37:04.400] it was a larger context. It had a weird level of artifice to it. Exactly. That’s that’s that’s the [00:37:11.760] vi this when I say there’s a twinkle in his eye. That that’s the part of it that still to this day [00:37:18.640] is the vibe I take away from it. Like this thing outside of normal life sort of descended on me [00:37:26.080] for a little while and I was in this roleplay in a way, you know, that’s why it feels, for lack [00:37:32.800] of a better term, kind of alien. you know, it it just it it’s outside of, you know, it was an ultra [00:37:39.280] ultra experience, you know, and and uh and then later in my life that not too many years [00:37:45.920] ago actually. Um there are a few things that have happened that kind of feel connected to it. Uh I [00:37:53.760] didn’t tell you about this before, Brad, because I remembered it after we talked. Um, I got involved [00:37:59.360] and I think I may even told you this a few years back in this documentary series about the Cicada [00:38:07.120] ARG. Do you know what the Cicada is? Cicada 3321. Um, it’s the big online game that was one of [00:38:16.240] the first major ones. There’s huge amounts of of controversy around it. It eventually got connected [00:38:21.600] to QAnon. Um, not that that’s where it started, but uh and there was a there was a man who was [00:38:27.920] very uh involved with it and one of the supposedly the founder of this this this online game. Uh, [00:38:34.560] and then there was all this intrigue that happened between the players on a global basis and and [00:38:40.240] became there was actually a CNN uh documentary about it and the HBO documentary about Q and Q [00:38:47.760] has a bunch of that in there about Cicada. So if you want to look into it and look up Cicada 3324, [00:38:54.160] I think yeah, that was the the moniker. By the way, it’s still out there. It’s still an ongoing [00:39:00.480] it came out of uh 8ran, you know, and for I mean I mean came out of you know the the dark the dark [00:39:07.040] web and uh and so it was fascinating to me as a story. But then when I got involved with it, [00:39:12.080] I felt kind of the presence of the same energy that I had felt with that those those guys, [00:39:19.920] you know, Bob and the guy who I can’t remember his name. And it it it has connections to a [00:39:25.760] similar sort of hidden government element that seems to have a couple times reached out to me. [00:39:32.800] I didn’t chase this stuff. This chased me. And that’s one of the weird parts about it, [00:39:37.680] right? I mean there’s many ideas that I’ve gone after just like uh you know you guys of course [00:39:41.840] have gone and gone and developed and researched and were chasing. these are things that chase [00:39:47.680] me and I wasn’t really wanting them to chase me but they as I got more deeply in the you know you [00:39:54.720] would feel this this interest and also this kind of terror uh you know a fision uh about it that [00:40:03.520] uh because it felt otra it felt outside you know and that’s that’s the when you said your talked to [00:40:10.960] you about your story that’s the feeling that was that was awakened in me about this memory which [00:40:19.120] I had really not thought about for many years in all honesty. One of the steps you just said [00:40:24.080] is how seductive it was. You said it was very seductive and I’m I’m just I’d like to define [00:40:30.400] that a little bit more for our audience. I mean, I think both Brand and I could be I mean, I think [00:40:36.800] all of us when somebody approaches you like that, you sort of part of you, no matter how scared you [00:40:42.640] might be or how strange it is, you’re also saying I must be special, right? Exactly. They’ve they’ve [00:40:48.960] sought me out because I’m special. And of course, who doesn’t want to feel special? So, I mean, [00:40:54.320] part of the decision process is asking yourself, am I really special or is it just the position [00:41:00.640] I have right now that’s special? or exactly. Walk me through your process of trying to separate the [00:41:08.320] way they were coming at you psychologically with how you finally said, “I’m not doing this.” Well, [00:41:13.760] first, you’re very flattered. I mean, it’s it it feels like, oh, I hit some I I hit some chords [00:41:20.000] here. you know, I I pluck the right cords and uh obviously I’m really smart because I’m plucking [00:41:25.440] the right cords and some of the things I’m talking about are actually maybe true or are related to [00:41:31.360] something that’s very true. And at first you’re, you know, as a storyteller, you get, as they say [00:41:36.640] in Australia, chuffed, you know, chuffed about that. You know, you could, wow, okay, man. I’m, [00:41:41.040] you know, I got my my my hands on the pulse of something, you know, and but then you wonder, [00:41:46.720] what is it the pulse of? I just want to get one thing in here because I’m afraid people that are [00:41:50.720] listening are going to say I just want to make really clear like it was clear to me and Brent [00:41:55.040] what they wanted us to do. They wanted to give us stuff uh information that we would somehow write [00:42:01.840] into the show as part of a slow drip disclosure. So the guys that approached us were not confusing [00:42:07.760] about it. They were their mission. A lot of things were confusing but the mission seemed clear. Yeah. [00:42:13.760] That’s one of the things that’s different. What did they want you to do? Exactly. They [00:42:17.360] were more wanting me to be part of something that then they would be sort of feeding me like [00:42:24.080] the idea that I’d be fed uh information and that I could in incorporate that information into my [00:42:30.720] storytelling as a storyteller because again I was a singular director writer you know and and uh was [00:42:37.120] working in this realm and I I I it didn’t get as specific. You guys had a network show, you know, [00:42:43.200] that was going. We had a live platform that they had a live platform. So, so they could be very [00:42:48.880] concrete with you. It’s like, well, let’s use this platform. They were much more, again, it was more [00:42:53.600] like a seduction of me becoming part of something that would be ongoing for my whole career. That’s [00:43:00.160] how they they made it feel to me like you could be part of, you know, connected, you know, and and [00:43:05.600] and because because you’re so precient, you can be connected to something where we’re going to give [00:43:10.960] you an edge. That was the seduction. Were you supposed to be part of this simulation? Uh were [00:43:16.960] you going to be assigned to that or was that just to show you the bells and whistles? That was just [00:43:21.280] to show me the bells. Well, that that was that was for me in my research of virtual reality at large [00:43:27.520] because I was making a movie about it, right? So, and I was very fascinated. I continued to research [00:43:32.960] virtual reality and I’ve, you know, to all the way to where I’m doing actual virtual reality [00:43:37.520] and healthcare now. You know, I mean, it’s it my storytelling with virtual reality turned into, [00:43:44.160] you know, a kind of life focus of using simulation in a healing way. uh one of my friends Dr. Skip [00:43:53.040] Rizzo, he saw the lawnmower man, you know, 30 some years ago. He then was inspired by it because [00:43:59.760] it had to do with virtual ex changing brain chemistry, changing, you know, the neuroplasticity [00:44:05.520] of the brain was actually shown in the film. These are pretty advanced concepts and he he [00:44:11.120] got inspired to take his uh therapeutic research in that direction. He’s run the ICT lab at USC for [00:44:17.200] 25 years and has been the the primary VR clinician on the planet. He’s one of my co-founders in my [00:44:24.000] company, Ubiquity VX, which is using virtual therapies for health and wellness. So, it and [00:44:29.840] and there’s and and by the way, the Veterans Administration is incredibly involved with that [00:44:35.600] because they utilize 30 to 40 uh virtual therapies uh in their in their corpus of care. And so it’s [00:44:43.680] uh and again do these is this thing from the past connected to how I mean think about it I’m [00:44:50.240] a director I’m involved with real virtual reality in therapy you know that’s a strange career path [00:44:57.040] you say you know I mean I’m in healthcare you know and by the way it’s been an amazing journey I’m [00:45:03.760] I’m it’s it’s it’s uh turning out to be a very successful thing that we’re developing in you [00:45:10.160] know right now in a very incredible process and uh you know it’s so for something that started [00:45:17.520] for me as a story I’ve walked into the reality of it and I’m doing the real thing in a very specific [00:45:24.640] uh sensibility which is the the sensibility of of using it for healing you know so which by the way [00:45:30.400] is because Dr. Skip Rizzo inspired me with his work to go in that direction. Yeah. You know, [00:45:35.760] so fascinating. But it’s all those things are connected into the government in some way. I mean, [00:45:40.080] you know what I’m saying? I mean if if again if I look at the stranges of my career I’m wondering [00:45:46.160] are there invisible hands in there somewhere you know and and and not just guiding me but [00:45:54.480] also guiding where it gets taken because it seems strange that I would actually have these things [00:46:01.680] come you know you don’t usually tell a story and then suddenly you’re involved with the actual [00:46:06.480] reality of that story you know 30 years later and It’s it’s a kind of trippy almost psychedelic [00:46:12.880] experience in all honesty. Absolutely. And on but on the topic of telling stories, [00:46:18.800] you said something which uh is fascinating to me. You said that when you would tell your story, [00:46:24.800] you would really just distill it down to the dossier. Yes. I’m curious a how many times [00:46:30.560] had you told the full story, everything you just told us before now? And and if you didn’t tell it, [00:46:39.040] you know, in whole, how come? I felt I needed to be in at during the earlier part of my life [00:46:45.440] anyway, in a very intimate level of relationship with someone to tell that story. First of all, [00:46:50.640] I don’t know if they would have believe it. I didn’t want to tell something that sounded like [00:46:54.000] some [ __ ] story, right? And so there’s only really a couple people that I had very close [00:46:59.040] relationships with that I told that story to fully uh in the past, primarily some of my my partners. [00:47:05.920] But when you told your story, it activated a whole other thing in me. It was re I realized, oh, now’s [00:47:12.640] the time to come out and tell this story. Now’s the time to deal with this. I mean, if not now, [00:47:16.880] when? You know, this is the you this is the, you know, the this phase of my my life and my career. [00:47:22.160] and and you know I am a storyteller and this is a true experience that I had and uh it seems to [00:47:29.120] be connected to something that’s going on right now that’s much much much larger because I feel [00:47:34.240] like we’re on the the precipice of a quickening regarding the alien question. I just feel that [00:47:42.640] that’s we’re in the middle of it in a way that’s different than the other times we may have felt [00:47:47.760] that in the past. It feels, by the way, when you say The Quickening, I remember Art Bell wrote that [00:47:52.720] book, a book called The Quickening. Yes. Matter of fact, I was I was at a party with Art Bell [00:47:58.960] uh at the very beginning of my career called The Mad Scientist Weekend put on by Marilyn Ferguson, [00:48:03.680] the woman who wrote The Crack in the Cosmic Egg. And uh it was this crazy called it was [00:48:08.560] called the Mad Scientist Week. It was at this this multi-millionaires mansion in Athetherton, [00:48:13.360] you know, near the research center, by the way. Um, you know, and and Art Bell was there and I [00:48:18.400] talked to him about some of these things. Uh, but this is before I made The Lawn Man, way before, [00:48:23.760] you know, he was he was um, you know, towards the end of his life at that time. But, um, anyway, [00:48:29.280] uh, what you told that, you know, you told us the name of Bob. Uh, I I’m just Did you tell us the [00:48:36.720] name of your contact again? I can’t remember. And you just can’t remember it. That leads me [00:48:41.120] to ask another question though because this is, you know, Brent and I have selectively told a few [00:48:46.720] people about the story. We then we started talking a little bit publicly, but never in the detail [00:48:51.040] that we have obviously right now. And one of the things that has come to light when we talk about [00:48:56.640] it now is occasionally I have somebody go, well, did you ask for identification? And I go, uh, [00:49:03.920] no. Now I’m a I’m a journalist by training. Yeah. The very first thing I should have done is said, [00:49:10.320] “Okay, you’re you’re from the Office of Naval Intelligence. Show me something. Show me your [00:49:15.200] ID. Show me your military ID.” And all I can say is in the middle of this weirdness, it just never [00:49:21.600] seemed like You know what? I never did. I did ask for it though. Good for you. I was He would get [00:49:29.920] that little twinkle in his eye. I it would it would and and he go well you might say the CIA [00:49:36.880] you know and I’m like well do you well I’m not going to you know can’t we’re not at that phase [00:49:40.960] yet and and then I’m like well what really come on and then he again he eventually landed on the [00:49:46.880] as if he was sort of like giving me the real thing the NSA that was that was his way of giving and I [00:49:53.440] had not even I had barely heard of the NSA at that point I mean I didn’t you know I had to study Sure [00:49:59.440] what that was you know and and how it came out of signal intelligence and the you know World War II [00:50:04.800] and all the you know the history of that and it’s a very weird arcane history even compared to the [00:50:10.640] CIA history you know tell our audience what you mean by signal intelligence well that means you [00:50:15.840] know the the capturing of of coded uh signals uh you know the Enigma project those are the kinds [00:50:22.560] of things that became the NSA uh you know I mean obviously in in Europe there were other versions [00:50:28.240] of it uh but in America it became the NSA and they basically look at all the signal. I mean, [00:50:33.440] I think uh um uh Snowden worked for the NSA, you know, that that was that that that whole area of [00:50:42.400] surveillance of capturing, you know, if you look at what uh Palunteer is. Palanteer to me seems [00:50:49.520] like a private organization, you know, extension of what the NSA was or is, you know, and where [00:50:56.320] one one ends and another begins, who knows given what’s going on right now in our body politic. So, [00:51:01.600] it’s almost like they’re really doing it, but lying about it, you know, it’s it’s just the [00:51:05.360] the whole thing right now. I believe we’re on is all part of this quickening we’re talking about [00:51:10.400] where you know where a lot of things are coming to the four in relation to surveillance privacy [00:51:16.800] signal intelligence and possibly underpinning all of it is this alien question you know if you’re [00:51:24.720] going to talk about the quickening and what you know what that kind of means is there’s just a [00:51:28.640] sense that things are in the air they’re happening there’s a couple of things I just have to ask you [00:51:34.000] because I’ll hate myself if I don’t ask it in in this time. First, if you had a if if out of [00:51:41.840] nowhere Bob showed up again right now and said, “Hey, man. Uh, we want to have another lunch or [00:51:46.960] a dinner.” And you go to that meeting and this guy is there and he says, “Okay, you know, I heard you [00:51:52.640] doing the Soundlight and Frequency podcast. That sounded very interesting.” No offense, not taking [00:51:57.840] any offense, but how would you like to take us up on our offer now? What would you tell that person? [00:52:03.760] I might I might go down that rabbit hole. I might What’s changed? What’s changed? What’s changed is [00:52:10.480] I think that Here’s what’s changed. I think that the black and white version of the world that I [00:52:16.400] may have had as a younger person, I don’t have that black and white version anymore. I It’s very [00:52:22.240] much a lot of grays and other tones and colors. And I think that there are probably pretty amazing [00:52:28.240] people or non-people involved with things that may be connected in a way that would connect to my [00:52:36.400] own, for lack of a better term, light, sound, and frequency, you know, at the core of my soul, you [00:52:41.680] know, and if I felt there was an alignment, a soul alignment or, you know, for lack of a better term, [00:52:48.000] an ethical alignment, a moral alignment, however someone would want to express it. For me it would [00:52:53.200] I would express it literally as a spiritual alignment. I would I would want to go there as [00:52:58.560] part of my own spiritual journey. So because part of my own spiritual journey has been looking at [00:53:04.000] other you know other worldly mystical energies. I’ve experienced a lot of things in my search [00:53:10.560] uh for you know just all the crazy paradoxes that exist in our in our reality in our world. And [00:53:17.280] uh this is such a potent one and and such a juicy one. I don’t think I could resist [00:53:23.680] to tell you the truth. O over the years, Brent, you and I have gotten together and [00:53:28.320] uh off and on on various projects we’ve worked on and every once in a while we’re discussing it, [00:53:33.280] our minds kind of drift and we kind of think what would our lives have been like if we said yes. [00:53:40.720] That’s so exactly something. Brett, my friend, that’s my question. when you lay awake at night [00:53:47.440] and you mole in your mind what would have happened if I said yes that was 30ome years ago for you [00:53:54.320] yeah it was okay you’re not the same person but and in fact you’re a person who said no 30 years [00:54:00.400] ago and so now you’re saying maybe this time I would let’s imagine for a second you’d said yes [00:54:07.040] what would your life be like today in your opinion I you know I I’ve I’ve considered like would that [00:54:14.080] have supercharged my career? Would that have destroyed my career? Would that have you you [00:54:20.240] go all the different ways with it? in terms of, you know, when you’re in the middle of the night [00:54:24.960] facing the facing the the dark ceiling, you know, it’s like you’re just you’re thinking [00:54:29.520] all the different possibilities and and you go, I wonder if there are others that have said yes that [00:54:37.760] I’m very aware of and that are out there doing things connected to that. And then you look at [00:54:44.800] what Stephen Spielberg’s doing right now with Day of Disclosure and and everything else he’s done, [00:54:50.240] you know, in the realm of and you go, I bet he said yes. Did you have anybody in your life, uh, [00:54:57.920] Brett, was there anybody in your life important in your life when this went down that you went [00:55:02.640] to them and said, “Yes, you got to I got to tell because I’m sure Brent and I each were, you know, [00:55:08.080] uh, probably talked to our significant others at the time, but mostly to ourselves and at least [00:55:13.120] Brent and I had somebody to talk to. You had to bring somebody in. Tell us how that went down. [00:55:19.120] So the my partner J Everett who was also the writer coowwriter of Lawn More Man was [00:55:25.600] the producer of Lawn More Man um was my both my my wife my first wife and my part my filmmaking [00:55:32.240] partner we broke into Hollywood together from nowhere from nothing uh Brent you knew J um yes [00:55:39.520] and uh J was an extremely spiritual person okay she was a master yogini you know her whole life [00:55:47.360] she was really raised me as a spiritual person, as a as a a man and as a filmmaker. Um, uh, she [00:55:56.720] passed on, uh, about 15 years ago, almost 20 now. And she she was extremely influential in my life, [00:56:04.160] uh, and was my partner in all of these early adventures. And of course, I went directly to her [00:56:08.720] with this. And she kind of agreed that we should leave it alone. She was she felt in her instincts [00:56:18.720] there was something there that could have been destabilizing and we’re tr you know again you [00:56:23.840] think about we’re just we just made our first hit movie we’re trying to solidify what that means in [00:56:28.880] our life and as you know filmmakers of course at that point the career in filmm was everything it [00:56:34.960] was something that felt like a distraction in some ways maybe it it was and she was uh someone that I [00:56:41.680] think persuaded me not in a really drastic way cuz she wasn’t someone who was a scared he she wasn’t [00:56:47.360] scared of much. She was a very fierce uh intense person, but she did I think was part of me sort [00:56:54.000] of walking away from it. I I have a question for you, Brent. Yes. When you hear uh Brett tell this [00:57:01.680] story and how he felt and everything, how is it changing how you feel about our own experience? Or [00:57:06.880] has it? It’s kind of uh affirming a lot of my own feelings and sensibilities that I also had a hard [00:57:16.000] time articulating. To me, the the the word I would use was surreal. Yes. Um and and and you know, [00:57:23.760] obviously you’re at your, you know, premiere party for your first show on network television and a [00:57:30.880] guy comes out of the bushes. I know. And start wants to start talking about a deal with the [00:57:35.600] government. like I I just I was not prepared in any way, shape or form to have that conversation. [00:57:42.640] But he seemed like it was the most ordinary thing to be having this like why wouldn’t we be having [00:57:47.680] this conversation? That’s where that’s where my experience was similar. They were very much very [00:57:52.800] like hey this is just you know this is just what happens man. What happens with what when oh when [00:57:58.240] you’re doing what kind of thing you’re doing? Oh okay. And that I mean I think he did reference you [00:58:04.080] know not many people do what you do. Remember not many people make hit films. Not many people get a [00:58:08.960] concept out into the world that you know is going to you know affect technology and these kinds of [00:58:14.400] things. I’m like okay I guess you’re right. You know so again that’s part of the seduction. Yeah. [00:58:20.320] I also think too that the the other aspect of this that is fascinating. It’s it’s harder to [00:58:25.840] articulate. You know, when Bryce and I were both telling our story in in episode one, we made, [00:58:32.800] you know, we brought to the surface the fact that he remembers seeing JC differently in terms of how [00:58:38.640] he was dressed than I did, right? So, you go, was that just the Rashimon effect or is there [00:58:44.400] something about a guy like this that has a weird aura around it where it’s just hard to remember [00:58:52.640] certain details? Let me talk to that because as we’ve been talking just now cuz uh Bryce, [00:58:59.280] you asked me a couple times, did you know remember this guy’s name? Yeah, I have a very good memory. [00:59:06.160] I am not someone who doesn’t remember details. I mean, I made giant technological films. You have [00:59:11.920] to have a good memory. I mean, it’s, you know, you you just have to have that facility with facts and [00:59:17.120] with things. And so the fact I can’t remember him exactly is weird. It is weird. It’s like I I It’s [00:59:25.600] weird. I would usually absolutely remember that guy, right? And and and think of that uh almost [00:59:32.480] in a photographic memory sense that that that card and his and I can’t see his name. Yeah. So what’d [00:59:41.200] you do with the card? It went with the the winds of the winds. That’s kind of what happened to you. [00:59:49.040] Exactly. It just it just got got put somewhere and then who knows many many changes. As our audience [00:59:57.280] knows, uh we did have the first encounter, if you will, our close encounter at our party. But then [01:00:04.000] uh JC came out to the dark skies offices with his so-called boss and they proceeded to brief us. So, [01:00:11.600] we had about an hour and a half conversation with two guys who were floating with and we’re not [01:00:16.880] going to get into that right now, but they were floating their version of what was going on in the [01:00:22.320] nature of reality and the universe and all that. Right? So, in other words, they weren’t actually [01:00:27.120] looking for us to tell to tell them anything. They just want to know if we wanted in and they were [01:00:32.240] sort of floating ideas to us. Did uh the gentleman you met with ever float any ideas about what the [01:00:39.920] what was going on with this whole UFO issue or or did it not get into that detail? No, he he did. He [01:00:47.520] he he was the overall tenor of it was that you’re on to something. You are somebody who sees the [01:00:56.320] truth. This is part of the seduction again, right? And because of that, as a storyteller, you know, [01:01:02.480] and and your precience, you could be useful and I think we could be useful to you. That was the [01:01:09.520] context for me. It was in the context of you you know almost like of course you believe in aliens [01:01:16.800] you know and and you know again I I love jawbon about all kinds of things and we jawboned about [01:01:23.920] interdimensional uh concepts and you know the idea of of you know not being metal ships as [01:01:31.680] Jeff Goldblum says in uh Philip Kaufman’s remake of the invasion of the body snatchers. You know, [01:01:38.160] it’s like it’s not about metal ships. It’s about something beyond metal. It’s about something that [01:01:43.120] is interdimensional in nature. And I did talk to those kinds of concepts with him almost in that, [01:01:48.640] you know, speed wrappy kind of wild, you know, having a wild conversation with a friend idea, you [01:01:53.920] know, way of of being. And he would nod his head and go, “Yes, with again, you you’re on to it.” As [01:02:00.400] if he was confirming that I was on to the nature of reality. Now, I took that with a grain of salt [01:02:08.560] and I felt like it was more of a seduction. And so, I would I I didn’t, you know, I didn’t let [01:02:13.680] my I didn’t let that totally work for me. I I was I let I kind of became skeptical of the fact that [01:02:20.080] he was using that technique in some ways. So, we are at the end of our line here, but I I we can’t [01:02:27.440] we can’t let this end without asking you just one basic question. Sure. uh you’ve had a long time [01:02:34.240] to think about this as as we have of course and as many of our listeners have given great amounts of [01:02:40.800] time and research and study to thinking about this at the end of the day now knowing everything you [01:02:46.800] know the experiences you’ve had this conversation this reawaken in your mind about wow that really [01:02:53.440] happened to me what do you think two parts I guess what is going on in terms of the secrecy around [01:03:01.360] this uh that probably is going on today. But even more than that, what do you think is the nature [01:03:09.040] of what we’re dealing with when it comes to this phenomenon? What do you think’s going on? Okay. [01:03:15.040] Well, I think that the secrecy has been something that had to be kept in place because of the idea [01:03:21.920] of societal disruption. Um, and maybe they’re right about that. Maybe that was a wise thing [01:03:28.080] to do. I think we’re coming to a point of kind of chaos theory where where everything is so mutable [01:03:37.200] in our culture. The the idea that truth isn’t truth anymore and that you know there’s not one [01:03:42.400] truth but multiple truths. And uh you know I like to say one of my favorite phrases is the truth is [01:03:47.600] in the paradox. You know, because there’s so many paradoxical things in modern culture and in the [01:03:53.520] idea of human consciousness and how we experience it at this point with, you know, almost 8 billion [01:03:58.640] of us on the planet. Um, that we’re coming to this quickening that we’re coming to a moment where [01:04:04.960] the the the fabric of the uh that’s been that’s been oluding that is dissolving. The veils are [01:04:12.320] dissolving. And there’s a there’s a truth there that’s beyond what I think we could even possibly [01:04:19.920] imagine. And that to me is incredibly exciting because if I can totally imagine it right now, how [01:04:26.560] boring is that? Right. Right. I want to actually discover something. I want to be surprised. Now, [01:04:33.040] I don’t necessarily want to be surprised in and you’re all going to become foods and food tubes. [01:04:38.640] Yeah. I don’t want to be surprised in that. You want a good surprise. You want a good surprise. [01:04:42.000] I want a good surprise. or at least one that has multivariate nature to it. Right. Right. And I [01:04:47.840] think that we’re on the cusp of something that truly relates to some of the largest questions. [01:04:54.960] Why we’re here? What really is existence, life, and death. those questions related to this idea of [01:05:04.080] alieness I believe is something that the veils are going to dissolve away and are going to be more [01:05:11.360] connected than ever now I think there’s going to be different lanes of the highway that you [01:05:16.720] could sort of come on there’s there’s a there’s an apocalyptic lane over here and you could choose to [01:05:21.680] be in that and that’s like a you know a million car pileup and then there’s the fast lane over [01:05:27.440] here you could just shoot past that and go into a whole other different reality. It’s all a choice [01:05:33.760] of your own consciousness and what it’s going to be perceiving as the truth as relates to your own [01:05:40.720] deepest essence. Yeah. And that I think is the moment we’re in. That’s what I mean by the moment [01:05:45.600] of the quickening. I I think that’s a fantastic interpretation of things. I tend to agree with a [01:05:52.320] lot of it. And I think this is a great place to to end the conversation because I don’t know how [01:05:56.560] we can top it. So, I just want to say thank you so much, Brett, for remembering your story and [01:06:01.920] then actually agreeing to come on and share it with us in our audience. And thank you for for [01:06:06.880] activating it in me because it’s actually been a very positive thing that this has been activated [01:06:11.680] in me again because it is something that I held kind of in a secret place and now it’s definitely [01:06:17.760] not secret now. It is no longer secret. I can promise you that. Thank you for having the the [01:06:22.640] courage to let it out. We really do appreciate it. It’s no problem. It’s been a wonderful [01:06:28.000] message to you guys. All right. Bye. See y’all. Soundlight and Frequency is an iHeart podcast [01:06:33.760] produced by Stellar Productions. It’s executive produced by Nick Johnson and for Stellar, [01:06:38.880] Jackie Zable. Our show’s music was written by Anna Stumpf and Hamilton Lighouser. And your [01:06:43.920] hosts and executive producers are Bryce Zable, that’s me, and Brent Freriedman. Watch the skies.