Jesse Michels — “Meet The Startup Summoning UFOs: Skywatcher Interview” (22 May 2025)
Source: Jesse Michels (American Alchemy) YouTube, ~2-hour Skywatcher interview. Title: “Meet The Startup Summoning UFOs: Skywatcher Interview.” Features Skywatcher personnel (Jake Barber’s venture; James Fowler and psionic/technical team members referenced). URL: https://youtu.be/y_8IKKcTntQ (2025-05-22; ~1:59:14; ~631k views). Captured: 2026-07-01. OpenAI Whisper (whisper-1) via scripts/speech_to_text_remote.py; timestamped paragraphs, verbatim. Multiple speakers (Michels + Skywatcher members), not diarized. Provenance only. Analysis: fowler-skywatcher-technologist and barber-noc-retrieval-claims. What this is: a long, sympathetic deep-dive into Skywatcher’s methodology and claims — the fullest video tour of the operation on Michels’ channel, distinct from the base’s other Michels-Barber transcripts (barber-michels-helicopter-2025-whisper, michels-barber-sentinels-aether-2026-whisper). Notable content:
- The “dog whistle”: Skywatcher describes it as the reason the company exists — “after we turn on the dog whistle, UAPs literally come to us day after day.” Team roles named (e.g. “Jordan, our sonic lead”; “Alex”).
- Naked-eye class sighting: they claim a first naked-eye observation of a “Class VII” — glinty, metallic, chrome-like, previously thought purple/black through optics.
- The paradigm framing: rather than tracking a known aircraft (a MiG-31), they aim to detect and quantify the unknown object nobody else is tracking. Formation observations (V-formations, stealth-bomber-like, flock-of-birds-like but “doing UAP things that don’t happen in nature”).
- Psionic assets: they claim principal psionic operator “Jordan” “called in a craft” in August (possibly an “egg”), while wearing a face covering — offered as evidence of a “programmatic nature,” with the explicit caveat that it “doesn’t prove or disprove anything psionic.”
- Class taxonomy references (Class 7 “jellyfish/tentacles,” Class 9 “the egg”), consistent with Fowler’s account (fowler-reed-summers-emergent-dogwhistle-part1-2026-01-27).
- On the incursions: a team member offers that the Langley AFB incursion (17 days) “was probably done by China” — the human-adversary read for the base overflights, matching the red-bucket framing in fowler-vonrennenkampff-sol-foundation-dogwhistle-2025. Weight within the Skywatcher venture’s contested-credibility context (see the Skywatcher page); this is an advocacy-friendly presentation, the underlying data unreleased.
[0:00] Skywatcher truly is a technology company that was started because of UAP. After we turn on the dog whistle, UAPs literally come to us day after day. Jordan, our sonic lead, came up to me and Alex and said, Hey, tomorrow we’re going to see a conflict in the sky. We’re going to have different UAPs are going to come in and there’s going to be… He sensed that. He said that. Whoa! We’re seeing multiple classes, three classes today. We saw them all with binoculars and or the naked eye, which is really new for us. We’ve not had that experience in the last five years. These days, since our technology platforms are so high to generate effects, they could mimic and our detection platforms are so well advanced,
[0:51] so we could see a lot more. Then it really is a zoo of options and possibilities. We have three spectrums and we see them on radar. Then we get in a helicopter and go chase them. And they evade us, right? But they evade us because the ground can see them evading. From the air, we’ve never laid eyes on them. We’re sitting there with binoculars, sitting there with SWIR cameras. The reason why the electro-optical can see them, cannot, is because that little bit of extra is where they’re actually emitting light. I think the government’s conflicted right now. I think they have advanced secret physics and knowledge in science… I agree with you. …that they’ve had probably since at least the end of World War II.
[1:39] You know that there’s physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not… There certainly is materials knowledge. Materials? Well, okay, materials science. Which involves topological physics or whatever. What I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly. You know, it’s like the things you’re seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground, are the secret science things, is the consciousness stuff, and it all fits together in this neat thing. And then also space aliens, and they’re from Zeta Reticuli, and you’re like, oh, it’s easy. And in fact, all of those things could be their own disparate threads. The skies are not classified, and we are seeing things in the skies.
[2:20] Those things seem to be there all the time. Mid-turn, before he could actually turn it to the UAP, the UAP hit us with an energy weapon. Whoa. I’m here with James Fowler. It’s an honor to have you, man. I am beyond intrigued at what you’re doing with Skywatcher. We have a mutual friend, Jake Barber, who gave me the honor and privilege of helping tell his story after Ross Coulthart came out as the first person, one of the first people, to retrieve this craft of non-human origin, an egg-shaped craft. And he mentioned when I was interviewing him that he had this private enterprise he was working on called Skywatcher. Since then, you guys have dropped a couple of really incredible videos, the second of which, I have to say, was pretty mind-blowing.
[3:12] Each UAP class has different characteristics. Some shimmer, some tumble, some spin. Some look like they’re alive, and they just fly like a living object in the sky. UAPs are extremely hard to image. What is seen with the naked eye is generally not what is seen under a camera. Even me, I’m sometimes skeptical. Like, what are these guys going to find? And I thought the taxonomy, you guys had nine classes of UFOs that you showed, was really impressive. And you’re, I think, pushing the field forward with that categorization and with the sensing techniques you’re using. So, James, thank you for being here today. I appreciate you. Happy to be here, Jesse. And we’re on this, what is this?
[3:52] The USS Hornet right now. Yeah, on a museum, a floating museum. A floating museum UAP hackathon. So, super cool. And I guess the main question I want to start with is, how does one get into a private enterprise around detecting UAPs? What’s the origin story for you? Well, so, I started out in the military. Spent a career there. Retired as a sergeant major. Retired in 2020. And spent about 23 years working for the government, deploying a lot, jumping out of airplanes, doing interesting things in bad places, usually. After I retired, I started several companies, and some of my companies were contracted by the government to do different war game projects. At one of those war game events in 2021, we had an observation.
[4:44] It turned out to be Class I UAPs. And we originally thought that that was a government-made, U.S. government-made tool, so we were very secretive about it. We protected it and did all the due diligence to kind of make sure that that didn’t get out anywhere, just in case it was made in America and needed to be protected. So, that’s how we kind of got into it. It was actually by accident. And I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention, I am the, if you will, the lead operations guy. I’m the guy who drove the discovery, but I’m not the person, I’m not the pioneer that actually discovered it, right? So, there’s two pioneers in this field who wish to remain anonymous right now. One is Mr. K, I’ll say. And he’s a really cool dude. He’s like a physicist, makes jet engines, flamethrowers, works on hot rods,
[5:32] and does physics for fun as well. Like, he’s a really, really cool dude. He is actually the first one on our team that figured out that, hey, there’s UAPs over us. And, hey, you got to come look at this. And we discovered, okay, there’s something going on here. And if it wasn’t for him, we would not have figured out the dog whistle. We have not have progressed to where we’re at. It is because of him that we’ve arrived here. Sounds like a genius. Sounds like a cool guy to hang out with. Oh, yeah, he’s a very, very cool dude. And the other one is Mr. D. He made a discovery with the signals. So, for a while, we couldn’t detect the UAPs with radar. Actually, the radar was detecting them,
[6:09] but not telling us it was detecting them. And Mr. D. figured out, hey, we can detect signals from these craft and geolocate them or direction find them in the sky and then put the camera on it, and there it is. So, those are really the two pioneers that, like, I feel like it’s not fair if I don’t mention them because they are the pioneers here, right? Yep. I am merely the person who harnessed their knowledge and their pioneering attitude and capabilities to arrive where we are at today. If this is an advanced species and it’s smart enough to do what it’s doing, they have the upper hand, and we are the little ants under the magnifying glass. We had a Class VII UAP. We went ahead and launched the Helo to pursue it. Before the Helo got here, it actually came and hovered right over us.
[6:54] For the first time, we saw a Class VII with the naked eye. It was very glinty, looked metallic. Through our optics, we’ve always thought it was purple or black. Frankly, the reflections look like chrome almost color. So, you mentioned simulating war games and these UAPs show up. Do you think, and obviously, you get into speculative territory and, you know, kind of philosophy, and I really want to get into kind of the hard data because that’s what you guys sort of specialize in, but you think that might kind of show that we’re living in some sort of three-body problem universe or something where they don’t want us to harm ourselves. You know, they show up around nuclear sites. They seem to across the U.S., but even abroad as well. And does that signal that they don’t want us to, you know, blow ourselves up or something? Or why do you think they show up
[7:43] around these sort of war games? So, we have some ideas on that and I have some opinions on that. We’ll say, for example, in 2021, the first time we saw them, we were running a war game for the government. The deliverable for that war game was tactics. And we had a blue team and a red team. The blue team’s job was to bring American-made, government-made and commercial-made protective systems for blue forces. Think air defense, think counter-drone, think other things. And then the red team was, again, American-made as well as one-off, hobbyist-type drones, aircraft and other things. And the red team’s job was to penetrate the airspace of the blue team or react, cause them to be able to basically, tactically envelop the blue team
[8:28] and cause them to have a loss. And the blue team’s job was to stop that. And so, we’re running this event and I’m up on the roof of a very tall building with two young interns with binoculars looking for drones, right? So, we’re up there. I think we were two weeks into the project at this point. Every day, 12 hours a day, we’re running the war game and we’re looking for drones as the mission controller, project controller, if you will, so I can modulate, launch now, don’t launch now, or, hey, blue team, did you guys even pick up on that drone that was just here? So, I’m trying to modulate the exercise and keep things flowing so we can be effective in developing tactics. And my camera operator, Mr. K, was like, hey, you have to come see this.
[9:10] There’s something going on. So, understand, we’re up on the roof, scanning the sky with binoculars, listening, seeing, and we see drones, we don’t see this other stuff. So, I go down to the truck and he’s like, look at this, and he shows me the class one formation of seven, the first sighting we had. This was the last day of the event, so we were shutting down a few hours later. And just for the audience, class one? Class one’s the Tetra. Okay. So, it’s a black-bodied object. It tumbles and spins at a very high rate of speed. We’re shooting at about 26 frames per second, I believe, and between each frame, it’s changed drastically in its flight characteristics and signature so that we can only see a little bit of it and we can’t really derive the shape. It looks like a tetrahedron,
[9:51] but it’s really hard to see from the footage we have. It looks like a tetrahedron that is wearing a hat, and the hat looks like it’s made out of atmosphere, as in, if you have a low-pressure, high-pressure differential, you can get vapor, right? As in, when a fast-moving jet breaks the speed of sound, you see the vapor on the wings. That same effect looks like what we’re seeing around the class one, and it basically wears it like some kind of field is holding it in place, and it’s kind of there around it, kind of hiding the black body from the observer, if you will. Interesting. And then that vapor tends to flash. Uh-huh. It catches, as it’s moving kind of violently, it catches the sun’s rays, I believe, and reflects back. So, that was actually what he saw, was he was looking in the sky for drones, thinking nothing about UFOs, UAPs, or anything else, and saw flashing and said, what is that? Zoomed in and be like, oh, wow, there’s seven of these craft
[10:50] in a tight formation maneuvering on us, right? And again, I told you, I was on the roof with interns with good ears and good eyes, better than mine, and we’re not seeing a thing. So, in the human senses, there was nothing there, but these things flew probably 2,000 or 3,000 feet above us, and we had no idea they were there at all. A drone, a drone of the same size, in the same flight formation, would have been glaringly obvious. So, it would have been so obvious that we couldn’t have missed it. So, UAP, by definition, is unidentified. Yeah. And it’s even broader than UFO, because it’s an aerial phenomenon. When you see these sort of tetrahedron-like things in formation as you’re simulating war games, is your first instinct, oh, this is some state-of-the-art technology that’s probably Russian or Chinese, because there’s a lot of reasons for them to want to see the red team, blue team stuff
[11:43] that we’re doing at home here in the U.S., right? Or is your first instinct, this is not from here? I’m kind of all over the map, frankly. I get conflicting signals, if you will, from the data we’re seeing. None of the rabbit holes, I call them, if you go down the, hey, it’s made in America rabbit hole, doesn’t make any sense. I’ve been on project and had special programs without telling us, bring their secret things to our event. And so when we are exposed to that technology, which has happened several times, it’s usually, hey, you signed an NDA, don’t talk about it, don’t share it, delete that data. They’re gonna tell your interns, I don’t know, have a clearance, I know anything.
[12:23] And we’re just gonna write it off and move on, right? And nobody has done this for the UAPs, right? And it should be noted that we go to events and have gone to events over the years where the government has been there already on another project. And we show up day one and they have UAPs all over their event and they have no idea. Because they’re not looking for them, they don’t know they’re there, they’re very hard to see. If you don’t know how to spot them with your technology, you’re not gonna be able to even see them or acknowledge that they’re in your airspace. So it’s either adversary or NHI, right? I would take it a step further and say it’s not either or necessarily,
[13:01] it could be both, right? Interesting. I would also offer that what we are seeing, my observations and my team’s observations are that whoever or whatever is controlling these is probing our capabilities. So it’s not like, you know, if I see a class one, it doesn’t just stay in a straight azimuth and fly north to south like it was already flying. No, it approximates us at the edge of our active telemetry systems, like a radar and jammers and other equipment that may or may not be present during whatever kind of event we’re running. It will approximate on the edge of that effective bubble and then fly through the bubble of effect. So they’re putting themselves in beam of our systems. And there’s very few reasons why you do that
[13:49] from a defense perspective. They’re gathering information. Probably. I mean, there’s not a whole lot of reasons why you would put yourself, if I had the secret stealth technology, if I have an F-35, am I gonna fly it to Russia and buzz Moscow and get in their radars and let them quantify what my F-35 looks like? I’m not an Air Force guy, but I would imagine no. I’d imagine that would be dangerous. Not because of getting shot down, that’s obviously a problem, but also because now they know precisely how I look on their radar, which means they can weaponize that to detect me in the future. As you know, I’m always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused and full of energy while I’m diving into life’s mysteries and making this show happen. And I’ve got to say,
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[16:32] where they are. And that’s really valuable, right? And then it ends up flying over, I think, Montana, where you obviously have Malmstrom and all these other kind of Minutemen bases, so that’s interesting. So when you say it’s kind of a false dichotomy, adversary, and NHI, does that mean the NHI could be adversary? Does that mean Russia, China, are somehow partnered with the NHI? Your mind goes into all these different possible variations or permutations of that. Do you guys have kind of a base case there? No, so there’s too many variables, really, to understand. We have five years of data, four terabytes of radar, imagery, video, photos, signals, intelligence, if you will, RF, we’ve collected, direction finding,
[17:20] all these different categories of data. And even with that kind of data and that kind of time, we don’t have enough data yet to tell us the answer. And I would offer, the reason for that is we’re not running scientific test events. There’s a distinct differentiator there. Right now, we’re running an operation. An operation means I have just enough personnel to man the equipment, to do the task, and then we’re going to record what they collect while they’re running that operation and doing that task, and then we’re going to post-analyze it. A test event would be, I would have extra people with clipboards and whistles and scientists looking over our shoulders. I’d probably have double or triple the labor footprint, and they would have a series of test event criteria, objectives that are pre-coordinated, and they would come out and ensure that we capture all the data and it’s all meticulously done, and then after the event,
[18:14] we write a report and do the thing. I would offer that we strive to arrive at a test event, and the reason why we strive is it’s very expensive. I have to double or triple my cost now in labor to pay people to come out and run a test event, which is very hard to do as a commercial entity. The government does it all the time because the government has endless wealth. As a commercial entity, where does that money come from? Especially as a private enterprise who is not selling anything to the government right now or doesn’t have a relationship, and then I would offer it’s further compounded by that we have been contracted in the past by the government to collect UAP data, and those contracts had nothing to do with UAPs. We continued running war game events or other events for the government
[18:57] when all they really wanted was UAP data. So I say that because I don’t foresee any future, at least in our current paradigm, where the government’s going to say, hey, James, hey, Sky Watcher, we want you to go collect UAP data at whatever location and give us that. That has not happened to my knowledge, and I know of nobody that’s had a contract like that. Instead it’s, can you tell us what’s in our airspace? Can you run a war game? So because of that mismatch in reality and the inability of our bureaucracy and decision makers to directly affront the situation of UAPs, instead they have to be surreptitious about it and talk kind of circular about it, that actually befuddles our ability to have a test event or a TE or test evaluation where we have
[19:44] a large body of people present. Right. Yeah, it’s frustrating. You have to kind of talk about it in a circular way and you can’t just kind of go to the heart of the matter because it’s not even acknowledged at the highest levels of our government still, which is pretty crazy. I’d say it’s even deeper than that. There’s really three categories of people when you talk about UAPs. You have one category, which is religious. In the religious category, you’ll often find people who are very intelligent, very smart, like normal people. Yeah. But they tend on this topic to assign a religious filter to the lens they’re looking at it through. Right? And the challenge there is you’re going to get somebody saying,
[20:24] well, you’re talking to angels and demons. You’re interfering with God instead of, hey, what is the science behind what you’re seeing? Right? And so that lens can be detrimental to us being effective with that group. The other group is the group that thinks everything’s manmade and made in China, made in Russia, made in the U.S. Right? That group also has a lens and they look at their national security lens. Yep. And so they think, well, Skywatcher, you’re revealing national secrets. You’re sharing too much detail here and subverting the national defense. Right? And so again, they’re close-minded because they don’t want to discover more because they feel like they’re patriotic and nationalistic,
[21:06] but really they’re anti-science almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the third category of people are people who are truly open-minded who can put aside preconditions, pre-beliefs, or things maybe from their upbringing or personal beliefs and just study science and let the observations and observables tell them what it is. Yeah. And so you never know who you’re going to get, which is why, like I said, we have to be circular in our true objectives when we speak with these officials because they are not prepared to speak with us in truth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s well said. It feels like it’s kind of a Scylla and Charybdis and their two failure modes are on the one hand, yeah, maybe being too mired in past dogma,
[21:47] you know, kind of religious fundamentalist dogma. And then on the other hand, it’s like atheist materialist reductionism, nothing, you know, it’s all nuts and bolts and there’s nothing else or something. It’s total closed-mindedness kind of in both directions or something. And an approach that is kind of open-minded and just data-driven, I think, is great. Another question this begets, and then I want to get into the core data because I think you guys have a lot of interesting stuff there, but is like, so if that’s a spectrum, the like materialist and, you know, kind of religious thing, I think there’s also a spectrum of they’re all good and they’re all bad. And to me, Occam’s Razor is probably just like humans, probably there’s a mix of like,
[22:31] there’s good and there’s bad or something. And so I don’t know if you have a take there, but you have like Lou Elizondo, you know, long time, you know, OSAP, ATIP, you know, modern day UFO whistleblower, who is for a while at least was more on kind of the threat narrative. And then you have Steven Greer, who, you know, has known Jake for a while. And, you know, he’s more on the, like I just interviewed him. He’s like, it’s all, they’re all good. And I would say it’s probably in between those two, you know, like the answer can’t be all good or all bad or something. So I don’t know if you have a take there. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So some of the UAP we’ve observed just maneuver through the airspace in part, right?
[23:12] So that’s really like hard to determine friend or foe. Who is it? Which is why for a long time, we were very secretive with this. We thought what we were seeing was red or blue, right? We assumed that it was manmade and it was a weapon system being utilized on us to see what we would observe or learn from it. That isn’t necessarily the case in our minds anymore, but that’s why we kept everything very secretive to protect national defense, right? Now that we’ve understood some new things, we’ve kind of come out, if you will, and are more open about what we’re observing, which is why we’re public now. So the class one just moves through. We don’t see any adverse reactions or really many interactions with the class one. It will dodge our lasers if we shun lasers at it, but that’s as much interactions we’ll get
[23:59] from that class of UAP. There are other classes who have interacted with us in a negative manner. Some of them interact, I think, inadvertently negative with us, as in they’re emanating perhaps through their technology. They’re emanating electromagnetic waves that are an energy that are interfering with our equipment. So it’s more of an area effect. So I feel like it’s probably not on purpose and then there’s another class that has actually hit us with a microwave weapon, so actually shut down our systems. It turned everything to the off position, right? That’s a very deliberate, now is that defensive or offensive, right? Is it shutting us down to protect itself or shutting us down to understand how we’ll react? Yeah, it’s so interesting. It’s like you get into all these philosophical questions of are they prepping the battle space or are they showing us that our ways, our brutish and our war games need to stop or something
[24:52] because we might blow ourselves up. And it’s just really, it kind of boils down to philosophy. And so I do think gathering data is good, but it does bring up this interesting question, which is from my limited experience with you, you seem very practical and very data oriented and just kind of the preeminent practitioner, where you want to find an answer. You don’t want to get caught up in necessarily crazy kind of philosophical discussions. I’ve spoken with Jake a little bit before you, and it does feel like this kind of spiritual journey for him. I’ve spoken with Alex Clokus, who I know is working with you guys as well. It seems like kind of a spiritual thing for him. How do you reconcile that? Is it good to have kind of a mix as far as the team you want? Some guys who are a little more philosophical, some guys who are kind of more execution oriented,
[25:45] or how do you view that? Because it does feel like a lot of people who get into the UFO subject and study it from the government perspective, like OSAP with Skinwalker Ranch, they come in maybe like, oh, we’re just going to figure some stuff out. And they come out, I don’t want to say more religious, but more like reverential, where they’re like, I went, and then I got a little spooked, honestly. I had a weird month after I went, and it kind of put the fear of God at me with this stuff. So yeah, I guess, how do you think about all of that? So let me actually take a step back to our origin story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’m not a whistleblower. I never held a clearance in the government related to anything,
[26:27] or was right on to anything with UAPs whatsoever. My government experience, frankly, just made me the person I am who can be open-minded and observe and report, collect, and understand. So that’s kind of a unique position to be in, unlike David Goresh or Jake Barber, others, Lou Elizondo. I have no whistleblower story at all. Everything we’ve done for Skywatcher is 100% commercial activity. That commercial activity might be in support of a government event, again, unrelated to UAPs, because the government has said, look, thanks for the observation. We have nothing on this, right? So Skywatcher truly is a technology company that was started because of UAP, right? So if you look at Andrew, you look at Khaki, you look at Boeing, Lockheed, all these other bigs,
[27:15] they were started for national defense purposes, right? So they started with a preconceived notion of, I want to spot a stealth aircraft. I want to spot a MiG-31. I want to spot a supersonic missile. And they worked backwards to develop technology for that purpose. Skywatcher, conversely, has started with, we’re looking at an unknown enemy weapon system or weapon system or thing in the sky. We don’t know what it is. And we don’t have a good signature of what that looks like. And we want to detect that. So what we did is we consulted with industry experts, pioneers in their craft, academia, some savants, and said, here is a classified drone threat. Here’s the parameters I need to measure. How do we design a system that will actually detect this drone threat and enable us to understand more about that threat? So for three years, we’ve been developing Skywatcher as a technology, right?
[28:11] That basically flips the paradigm on its head. Instead of saying, I want to track a MiG-31, we’re saying, I want to know what that thing is in the sky that nobody else is there, and I want to quantify it. So Skywatcher actually was my cover term for UAPs, right? I have briefed VCs. I’ve briefed high net worth individuals. I have briefed the government on Skywatcher as a technology without ever saying the word UAP because, again, when we thought that the UAPs might be a national defense problem, we approached it from a veil of secrecy, and Skywatcher was how we would converse with people about technology development that’s really slated for UAP detection and tracking. So we are a technology company rooted in unexplainable, unknown physics
[28:59] and trying to understand that from a defense perspective, right? So because of our scientific approach to this, we have a lot of data, and we don’t have a lot of room for areas that don’t have data, right? So what I mean by that is, as I said in the episodes, I’m not a believer. I don’t want to have faith in this. I don’t want to have to trust me, bro, and believe you when you tell me. No, show me the data, and then I’ll know, and I’ll have knowledge, and then I can understand. You know how we’re always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show? Lately, I’ve been thinking a lot about aging, not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slower recovery, lower energy, that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you.
[29:49] I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That’s why I started using something called qualia senolytic, and it’s been a major shift for me. Let me explain. As we age, our bodies accumulate what scientists call senescent cells, also known as zombie cells. These are worn-out cells that stop dividing, but don’t die. They hang around in your body, draining your energy, clogging up your recovery, and generally making you feel older than you are. Qualia senolytic is a first-of-its-kind supplement formulated with nine plant-based compounds designed to help your body naturally eliminate these zombie cells. It’s not something you take every day, just two days a month, but it supports your body in aging better
[30:33] at the cellular level. Since I’ve started taking it, I’ve felt sharper, lighter, and like my body’s resilience has come back online. It’s vegan, non-GMO, and grounded in serious research. Experience the science of feeling younger. Go to qualialife.com slash jesse for up to 50% off your purchase, and use code jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for an additional 15% off. That’s Q-U-A-L-I-A L-I-F-E dot com slash jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. So, on the UAP side, in terms of craft in the sky, I think we have that, right? And I say that, the episodes we’ve produced, why do we do that? Alex and I had a conversation about this, and I was very insistent, as was he,
[31:27] we have four, four and a half years of data, right? It sits on a drive in a certain place. That’s also important for the audience to understand that you’ve been at this for a while. The public reveal was more recent, but you’ve been at this for almost five years now? Five years, yeah. The analysis of that data is onerous. It’s hard to do. It’s expensive. And Gary Nolan talked about that today at the hackathon, about how hard data is, even his data that he has. It’s very hard and expensive. There’s a real monetary cost to conducting the analysis and doing it scientifically. So, the data is great to have, but analyzing the data is very hard. So instead, as an interim, we’ve decided to video and document the activities
[32:08] as they unfold. And so, at great cost to our own business, and expense, if you will, in time and energy and effort, we have documented these things so that when the data is released scientifically, they have a backstory to understand how the data was collected. Because again, the scientific report, a white paper, a scientific journal saying a thing, is just a snapshot. And most people have no clue what that means in terms of general public. But if they can reference a video that covers that place and time of that event unfolding where that data was collected, now it tells a whole story. Now you have the anecdotal, you have the literal live imperfect experience as things unfold, and then you have the post very scientific data analysis that actually covers down exactly explicitly
[32:59] the analysis of how that event unfolded. Yep. And I want to get into the data. Final question before we dive into the taxonomy and all the classes, which I’m really excited about, is Jake Barber. How did you partner up with Jake and how’d you meet him? So I was very cautious for a long time of who I would meet with or talk with. I actually met with Gary one time and did it in a way that, frankly, made him very uncomfortable. Okay. Because who’s this guy meeting me? Yeah. He was a little freaked out because I was very secretive in very spy versus spy type of meetings. Okay. With Gary. And then I also ran into some congressional staff members did the same thing of like, I don’t want to be on your calendar, but I want to like,
[33:41] your congressperson saying publicly that they want this. Well, I have it. Let’s talk. But again, we kept everything in the icy and very secretive. So first I met Gary and then I met Alex. And then after we met, Jake and I met when we started forming the company Skywatcher as a private entity. Cool. All right, let’s get into the data. So you guys just released a video that’s just fascinating where you have nine classes of UAP that you described. Can we go through them class by class? Are you cool with that? Yeah, that’s fine. That’s fine. And I don’t know if you remember all of them off the top. I have a picture on my phone. Okay. I love it. Awesome. Man who knows his crap. Okay. So no pun intended. So let’s go with class one. Class one is the Tetra. The Tetra does have different characteristics than just a multiband imagery. So electro optical, which means daylight camera,
[34:46] usually with a little bit more bandwidth, if you will. So you can see a little bit more than the human eye can see in the visible spectrum. Then we have middle wave infrared and shortwave infrared. All three of those sensors see the class ones and it registers on all of them. And then also we have radar that we see the class one on. Any typical behavior that the class ones engage with? You mentioned they were in a formation before. Any other interesting data that you have on them? Yeah. So the class one tend to fly in groups. We’ve seen one or two as a singleton, but usually they’re in groups of three to 20. And that group tends to fly through in some kind of formation. And it can be everything from four or five craft seemingly locked together maneuvering as a group
[35:31] with another group and even a third. All the way from that to looking like a V formation, like a stealth bomber would look or a flock of birds, but clearly doing UAP things that don’t happen in nature. So we’ve seen them fly through in those formations right over us. So like most UAPs, they’ll deviate their flight path that we first see them on. Then they’ll come into a beam of our telemetry systems and we’ll see them on a map. And we’ll know exactly the altitude, air speed, or excuse me, ground speed, radar cross section. We’ll have all that data on that craft at that time or that group of craft. And then we’ll follow their flight path as they fly right over us or right next to us
[36:15] or whatever maneuver they’re doing. So we’ll see the class ones fly right over us. Like I said, usually in a formation of some kind. Okay. Class two, what are we looking at? Class two is a Tic Tac. So it’s about 40 feet in length. We saw that first in 22 and then in 23, and then we didn’t see them again until 25, till February this year. We’ve seen them in groups of one to three. They don’t appear to fly in formation as much as arrive together in a group and then depart as singletons. So really hard to say. We don’t know that we have them on radar yet. We have a lot of radar data. And for example, in our February event, we had a class two, which exhibited some very strange behavior, which you’d never seen. It actually used the hills to hide from us
[37:14] and came in, hide from our primary sensors. So we’re watching jellyfish fly through the sky and started having interference with our systems, we believe from the jellyfish. And then we had some weird radar blips to the north of us. And so we started looking to the north and then we saw several UAP, one of which was a Tic Tac. So the Tic Tac, we have laser range finder returns on it and we have it in multiple spectrums of imagery, but we don’t have any SIGINT from it and we don’t have any radar that we know of from it. Do you guys have infrared? Yes. And you have infrared of the Tic Tac? Because yeah, I think of Nimitz, you know, 2004, and I think that the best imagery for that was thermal, you know, forward-looking infrared,
[38:01] 2004 case with David Fravor and, you know, USS Princeton. Well, so what’s interesting is the government, if they have it, have never released the electro-optical view of the Tic Tac. I don’t know their motivation, whether they have that footage or they have chosen not to release it. They say they do. But I’ll say in our footage of the Tic Tacs, they are not a round cylinder only, right? They’re actually more like a porcupine. Okay. So if you look at, if you zoom in and enhance the footage, you can actually see little spikes all around the craft, around the perimeter of it. Interesting. You know, kind of riding the surface of it. Furthermore, I talked about in the other video, the episode that they appear to bend
[38:48] when they come out of high G maneuvers. Whoa. So they’re flexible or semi-rigid, if you will. I think you get, do you guys have video? Maybe that’s the Manta. I don’t remember, but it feels like the thing is bending in the video. Is that the Tic Tac? I can see it. And ProPixel did a good job of zooming in, enhancing and showing that. Okay. So a little AI enhancement. Yeah. Yeah. Which we didn’t do ourselves on purpose. Sure. We wanted to give our government the chance to say, stop sharing this data if it’s sensitive. So we did a very controlled, limited release with footage that wasn’t the most spectacular to give the government that opportunity to ask us to rescind or stop. Have you gotten any calls to stop what you’re doing?
[39:31] No, quite the opposite. I’ve sat in meetings with various agencies of the government very recently. We do routinely share a lot with the government and I’ve asked the government to nebulize me, to give me an NDA. Yeah to tell us to stop make us, you know, make give us some kind of indication or even lately Hey, give us some talking point. Yeah, like what helps national defense on this? Yeah, and I’ll tell you the government’s refused so I You know, it’s what does that mean? You know, I you know in a much probably Smaller more mini way than you’ve experienced Feel the same way I feel like the lights are on but no one’s home often with the government with this stuff where on the one hand you have
[40:13] David Grush’s claims and and and others and honestly a lot of historical evidence that we have real reverse engineering programs. We have Saucers and hangers like, you know, we know a lot about this stuff and then on the other side of the spectrum It’s like you you you continuously meet these people where you’re like oh that person should be like one of the architects of this thing or you know, whatever you get into these rooms and Like it often feels like extremely frustrating where it’s like no one knows what’s going on And if there’s anything, you know, we were talking about this earlier like, you know, China has its own centralized way Even if you read the three-body problem, it’s like they’ll just knock on the scientist’s door I say you’re coming with us right and in the US you have these kind of private side You know people innovating on you know anything happening and that’s that’s it’s always this kind of distributed loose thing It’s not this fully top-down centralized system
[41:07] So it’s it’s it’s just so hard to make make sense of how much the government actually knows knows on this So is your sense that they don’t know they’re playing dumb or what or so? It’s I think it’s kind of a mix. Okay, right So when I meet with the government and and and ask them usually the conversation will go something like James nice to meet you Let’s talk about the data. You’ll have let’s talk about what you’re seeing I’ll lay out all nine classes and kind of give them like probably 30 minutes to an hour long overview and then they’ll say great Since we’re in a skiff I’m gonna make a call to this other program Has all this knowledge and data on stuff and I’m gonna ask them if anything you have matches
[41:44] What they’re doing and the answer is always no and there’s as always they have no clue what you’re talking about There’s nothing in inventory that matches what you’re describing So yeah, we don’t know right and then usually what happens after that is a deer in headlights Look, I held a held a meeting recently where there was a guy on the VTC in a classified settings kind of smirking Right, I thought he was incredulous or thinking like thinking negatively about what I was saying It turns out he was smirking because he already has done his due diligence and says like we have no knowledge of any of this Right as in like mate, I think you may have even said maybe this is off planet, right? Which is quite shocking when I’m in a room with social matter experts from the government Hey on UAP and UAP tracking and history and the answer they give me is Maybe it’s off planet and he says in a smirking manner because like I said There’s different categories of people and even and even in a room of people who are studying or trying to learn about this
[42:38] There’s still that that edge where there’s a little bit of taboo for him to say that I think it’s off planet. Yeah, right, so and I would also offer that Typically engineers and scientists are bad liars. Actually, they’re not really good at keeping a straight face Yeah, and talking around a topic Yeah And I have purposefully affronted several of them or confronted them with some of our findings to see and measure and kind of put them in a in the hot seat to see if they have a Reaction and their action I get from them is typically very honest at that They have no idea what yeah, and these are people that should know about it. So so do I think that there is misdirection and and Information operations warfare type stuff happening. I do believe there is that happening. Do I think that there our government has
[43:28] Some reverse engineering or technology? Yes, I think that is the case. Mm-hmm, but I don’t think that That is necessarily tied to what we’re observing in the sky. It’s like the deeper you go on this You really have to eat what I think a lot of people expect in this subject is for everything to tie together so neatly and perfectly and for you to have you know, it’s like the Things you’re seeing in the sky are the things that we have on the ground are the secret science things is the Consciousness stuff that we all kind of intuit might involve, you know It might be the next kind of scientific paradigm and it all fits together in this neat Thing and then also space aliens and they’re from Zeta Reticuli and you’re like, oh, it’s easy And in fact, all of those things could be their own disparate threads and it’s just this extremely wonky Hard thing to figure out and that the deeper you go in some ways the more confused you get which is cool
[44:21] I mean, that’s like any any cool subject that’s generative, but it’s not often the disclosure I think people want, you know, they want this like neatly packaged, you know tied up in a bow thing And I don’t I don’t know if that’s ever come in Let’s talk about a guilt-free alternative to alcohol That’s perfect for your dry January or any time you want to unwind. Cornbread’s organic CBD gummies These gummies are an absolute lifesaver for my evening routine They’re a natural way to relax, celebrate, or wind down without the hangover I’ve cut back a lot on my alcohol consumption over the last few years. For a lot of you trying out dry January or cutting Back generally, it’s not always easy But swapping that glass of wine for Cornbread’s CBD gummies is a total game-changer It’s a simple upgrade to your evening routine that leaves you feeling great the next day without sacrificing the fun Plus with all natural ingredients, they’re the perfect way to stay balanced. Cornbread hemp isn’t just a product It’s a small way to bring balance into your life
[45:22] Whether you’re journaling, meditating, or simply enjoying some downtime, these gummies elevate the experience without any of the guilt It’s like having a moment of calm in your pocket ready whenever you need it Alcohol doesn’t have to be the default anymore Whether you’re cutting back for dry January or just looking for a healthier way to relax You’ve got to try Cornbread’s CBD gummies. Right now American Alchemy listeners can save 30% on their first order Just head to cornbreadhemp.com slash Jesse and use code Jesse at checkout. Again That’s cornbreadhemp.com slash Jesse code Jesse. Cornbread hemp. This is the good life Yeah, and I don’t think that disclosure is what come with what the common populace thinks it is so when we talk about disclosure, we release the disclosure framework because it’s our belief that in our understanding and our desire that When we release data and scientific studies Nobody should have to ask what that means
[46:17] Right when a third party looks at our data and reaches conclusions. Nobody should have to say what does that mean that there’s aliens? Does that mean that? that the government knows what’s going on like There should be some kind of framework that covers what that means and and that can be clearly articulated of This report in this data. It means this so that’s why we laid out the Disclosure framework, but I would add a twist on that and that it’s my opinion that disclosure isn’t about Aliens it’s not about UFOs UAP. It’s my opinion Eric Weinstein, I believe It has said that there’s secret colleague Yeah, secret physics or secret science and I believe that that is the case You know that there’s physics knowledge held by aerospace companies that is not there certainly is materials knowledge Materials. Well, okay material involves topological physics or whatever
[47:12] I think the the government’s conflicted right now. Mm-hmm our government and probably several others. I think they have Advanced secret physics and and and knowledge in science I agree with you that that they have had probably since at least the end of World War two and through that Science and understanding have developed new technologies And and I think that disclosure from a government perspective is about the science being released and disclosed Not about the technology So yeah, so it let me make it really simple Let’s say you’re a Lockheed. Mm-hmm Program manager who has a secret program with the government and your secret program involves physics that are like nothing We have today that anybody knows about You’re doing really crazy things for national defense against our enemies and to defend our homeland with this with this Knowledge and you’re developing new sensors are developing new aircraft. You’re developing new submarines Whatever is you’re developing you’re doing it with the physics that nobody understands
[48:14] Now, let’s say you’ve been doing that for 20 years You’re you’re a good a good place in your career make a lot of money You’re happy you’re stable, but now the news and the public’s like I start changing and now there’s Agents of the government hunting for you because they think you’re responsible for this UFO phenomena UAP phenomena They think that you somehow are using your advanced physics to do Information operations warfare against American populace, so they’re actively hunting for you so now you just went from a patriot who loves his family loves this country and is very smart and developing technology or protecting technology and Science to the boogeyman that has somebody hunting for them. And so that Lockheed engineer Needs a pressure relief valve. Mm-hmm, right? So I think we have reached the point where our government has decided that it needs to release
[49:06] Knowledge about the advanced physics and science but at the same time needs to constrain that Lockheed engineer or scientist from revealing a national secrets and protecting a national defense So I think our government’s conflicted in that without saying it out loud because by saying it they’re acknowledging. Yeah, it is true and no one has told me this I’ve arrived at this position through Years of discussions. Yeah, one has ever said like hey, here’s the case. I know nothing from the government Fact all I ever get from those during the headlights and questions. Yeah answers. Yeah So much of this resonates with my own experience looking into this Yeah, I think I think disclosure frankly is less about a UAP flying in the air and more about releasing the technology The science and how do you release the science? How does Skywatcher release a science? I’ll tell you we are a private company Privately funded we have our own Technology we have we’re developing our own technology. And as I stated in the beginning we are rooted in and
[50:05] Exist because of UAPs being exposed to us. Is that the government program was the government is the government program to expose? US Chinese Russian whatever technology to to the layman. Mm-hmm, right with the right mindset so that they can produce Science based on it to basically do that. Oh sure of how they’re doing it. Oh, that’s so interesting Yeah, knowing that yeah, you know, hey as we observe propulsion technology or telemetry technology or whatever We’re observing. Yeah that even if we understand how they’re doing it. We’re still 16 to 90 years behind them right, that is Mindfuck, excuse my French, but like the idea that That’s their soft disclosure of secret science is us through, you know, civilian efforts like what you’re doing private efforts
[50:55] Detecting what they’re doing and then working back from first principles on how to build it and maybe even building things that are emergently adjacent or new Compared to what they’ve done over the last six years seven years, which they can’t admit to her own up to that is fascinating Yeah, that’s very interesting. And that’s what I believe is happening. I believe that’s our role I don’t believe that’s why I went to the government. They give me no answers. Sure You just want to see hey, what are these guys gonna come up with? Yeah, they poke us the bear or whoever it is And like I said, there’s different categories, I think there’s blue I think there’s red and I think there’s other yeah And I have an idea of which class is which but I don’t want to share that sure But I believe that there is a mixed bag of what we’re seeing
[51:35] Why do you feel like it’s premature to share that or what? I want the government to have the chance to stop me. Uh-huh before I reveal. Yeah. Yeah secrets. Yeah Yeah, so that’s frankly why we’re holding back. Yeah. Yeah It’s not because we don’t have the data or the knowledge just because we want to do this responsibly. Sure. Yeah Yeah, so, um, so again disclosure is going to be more about you know, we’re making observations right now We made observations in in in March and in February that revealed to us the technology in play And what that means is I sat with a physicist from a certain field looking over my shoulder while I went frame by frame On one of the UAP classes that we have not revealed yet. Yeah, and that physicist was able to say Wow, that’s the technology being used that is how their propulsion works. Whoa This is what the shape of the craft means. Yeah, right. So No longer are we oh, it’s magic. Okay. I can’t replicate that technology. Yeah I don’t understand how they’re doing that in that kind of form factor in that size and scale
[52:37] Yeah, but no longer do I have to say I don’t know how they’re cloaking Wow No longer do I have to say I don’t know how they’re propulsing Right now we can understand. Okay. This is why we can’t see them sometimes because perhaps they’re using what we What we have observed. Yeah, right. So those observations tell us something Yeah, but it doesn’t give me the science and the tools to go make it and do it myself Sure, so that is one of the things we were doing at Skywatcher. That’s still fascinating though I mean, can you say anything about what that scientist said about that? No, I have to leave that have to leave that let that go for a while Yeah, but it’s important to understand that part of Skywatcher is an applied physics applied science if you will where you’re working to understand the technology behind what we’re seeing and Really actually said that wrong We’re actually working to understand the science behind what we’re seeing so we can understand the technology and again Let’s say that that is a made in America thing and it you know
[53:37] Some agency flew that through specifically because of what we’re reporting we’re seeing so that we can release Maybe to the world eventually The science behind it so that innovation can be made to move us forward is As safely as we can And responsibly as we can like is that the the quest here to pressure relief that? Project manager a Lockheed the mythical project manager I mean that I don’t know exists to pressure relief them and turn them from the boogeyman into They can keep all their technology secrets all their advancements While we understand the science and like I said, we’re 60 years behind totally well something else. I hope happens is I’ve talked to a couple of those aerospace greybeard types and you never know
[54:22] You know what they’ve discovered, but you can sense that some of them You know or higher conviction on certain frameworks that aren’t publicly acknowledged and what I sense sometimes is that there’s a you know a feeling of Wow, like I feel high conviction in some of these things. I Wish they were used more broadly in civil side architecture, and maybe we had this kind of regressive Cold War mindset Which doesn’t even make sense now with some of these frameworks because if China and Russia are not at parity I will say publicly and I’m sure fans will get pissed at me that like we shouldn’t disclose something that is, you know Extremely dual use and like could confer some really big warfare tactical advantage, obviously but if they are at parity and If there are ways to implement some of this stuff civil side and we don’t have to send civil side science Often to this kind of cul-de-sac of like not being productive because of bad frameworks It would be great to get some of this stuff out and I I also see those greybeards at times being like I
[55:28] Wish I could work more for for humanity, too. So I don’t know if you’ve experienced that or so. Yes That is, you know, we do have a certain level of look we’d like to help humanity help our country. We’re very patriotic And and we’re very open about what we’re trying to do Which is develop technology for national defense and also at the same time if through the science can we can discover a new technology? Like we’re all about proliferating that like that’s responsibly. That’s what we want to do. The that I think our government is constrained. All right The skies are not classified and we are seeing things in the skies. Those things seem to be there all the time. Mm-hmm There’s a very specific time of day when we observe UAPs. They’re not there the other times of day hmm
[56:17] Do you say what time right? I’ll get skip I’ll skip that for now. Yeah, but the the point there is We could be on the ground looking up at the UAPs with a camera ball and see them We see them on radar, right? So we have three Spectrums that we’re seeing them on with imagery and we see them on radar So that’s four different methods that we’re tracking them with then we get in a helicopter and go chase them I’ve chased private 15 UAPs now in the last 60 days. I wanted to ask you about this. Yeah, so So when we chase them, we have never seen a UAP from the air Wow, right now Air-to-air intercepts are hard to do. Mm-hmm. I was not a PJ or f-16 pilot or anything Air Force So, you know army, right? So like I have zero experience playing touch Skydiving and military freefall operations, but I’ve never yeah I’ve never been in an aircraft with with with a motor trying to chase another aircraft. We have Jake on your team. Yeah That’s good. Yeah. He’s a really good pilot. Yeah, right. Yeah, so so we’ve chased about 15 UAPs and in They evade us right but they evade us because the ground can see them evading from the air
[57:32] We’ve never laid eyes on them. Mmm, right. We’re sitting there with binoculars or with s-wear cameras. We’re sitting there Why do you think that is? I Think that they have a method to be cloaked From the air and that method does not extend to the ground Oh, right, and and it’s important to understand. Okay, so we’re seeing UAPs. How would you even do that? So wild it is wild Yeah, right We’re seeing UAPs in commercial airspace. Mm-hmm, right at the same flight levels that commercial aviation’s flying at That you cannot see from the air so understand if we’re in El Paso working, mm-hmm, and We see a UAP. Mm-hmm, you know and I’m looking north and in El Paso If you look north actually from we’re out in Sierra Blanca and the last place we were using When we look north all we see are airliners Transiting because everyone transits the border right there by El Paso just just north So in the same airspace for CNU APS, all right So you APS that the pilots cannot see and I know they can’t see them because I’ve been probably about 200 meters from a class 8 and the teams like look out your left window the UAP is right there and me and the pilots and
[58:46] And and and one of my colleagues is sitting there looking scanning every sector then you can’t see it. There’s nothing there Is it do you think any are you picking it up in the ground with normal optical sensors with cameras or with Kind of more exotic stuff or what? So it’s the ones I described. Okay, the radar and the three bands we should go through. Yes. You have radar Infrared so you have shortwave infrared shortwave infrared medium-wave infrared and electro-optical Electro-optical can see a little bit more than the human eye gotcha And I believe that the reason why the electro-optical can see them Cannot is because that little bit of extra is where they’re actually emitting light and in interest
[59:24] They’re not where is it? So the human eye I think is 400 and 700 nanometers is the the range So where would this be on the I don’t know the electro-optical would be like we haven’t figured that out yet Like we haven’t figured out where in the spectrum. They’re visible. Like I said, we’re running operation. Okay, rowing to the science. Okay, okay, so And I would even offer to jump ahead a little bit in the class sevens Yep, for four probably be like 350 to 750. It’s probably within the it’s probably somewhere. Yeah Like that, but the class sevens for years I thought we thought were black-bodied objects that emitted a purple and pink vapor of some kind or reflection with white tentacles It’s a jellyfish. Yeah, right
[60:06] Recently in February we saw class sevens with the naked eye. Mm-hmm. I saw one with the naked eye. It looked like a a Golden chrome looking mirror that was highly reflective with white tentacles Then we picked up binoculars and got high magnification scopes on them and they looked bright white But reflective so under each observation method we get a different return on what we’re seeing. It’s not consistent, right? So it’s not a black body I don’t think I think it’s white like the tic-tac and like the egg and like other things that are out there But that tells you the the the hard problem we have here We’re trying to detect a craft that isn’t consistent across bands Right, and it’s very hard to image at the same distances We are seeing these if we see a drone which again we started this with drones or a bird
[61:00] We see lots of birds or balloons. We’ve released balloons to or aircraft At the same distances we’d be able to distinguish flights control surfaces engines Exhaust yeah, and we’re not picking that up with the UAPs. Yep, right So we have a team sitting outside of the talk when we’re running these operations with scopes and cameras And they might catch a snippet for like two seconds of a UAP But that’s really all they’re able to to see unless because UAP is typically your five kilometers minimum away. Mm-hmm sometimes You know approximately 10,000 feet above ground level right whatever that is in meters So they’re not nearby right and Often when we do see them or when we did see them with the naked eye in the few times we have they’re very reflective so actually using the Sun’s glint to spot them is one of the methods we use and Should help us indicate that maybe we can’t see them in the naked eye. Maybe all the naked eye sees are Reflections. Yeah. Oh, that’s so fascinating So interesting makes me think of this Carl Sagan
[62:06] Thing where he’s talking about like you’re seeing a shadow of the thing. You’re not saying the thing itself He’s saying he I think it’s like a platonic solid He’s using like a tesseract example, and you know, that’s just and they’re like, you know There are this comes up and it’s very theoretical but like holographic theories or principles you Grush even mentioned it in his Congressional testimony the framework that I’m familiar with for example is something called the holographic principle Both it’s it derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics And that is if you want to imagine 3d objects such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2d surface That’s the holographic principle so you can be projected quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional It’s a scientific trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I understand But there’s probably guys of PhDs that we could probably argue about that
[63:04] Class 3. What are we looking at class 3 is the blob? Yep So it’s a I describe as a pepto-bismol colored cloud. Yeah, and in the center of the cloud is Like a filament that looks golden almost like a flame looks like it’s a cylinder Maybe has corners really hard to tell and this objects Like the class one on the class two Does fly in a stable trajectory? But while it’s flying in that trajectory, it’s vibrating Vertically and horizontally very fast. So it moves from point to point and instantaneously as It moves along a stable trajectory. And when I say stable trajectory, maybe it’s maybe it’s white path is 80 knots. Mm-hmm, right? Mm-hmm, but on imagery and on radar it is bouncing all over in a perhaps like a like a tube almost almost likes in the subway and you took like the Tasmanian Devil and threw him the subway and
[64:00] Said go downtown. He’s gonna bounce all over the subway while he moves on that that tubular Tunnel there. That’s kind of what we’re seeing in the sky answers, right? So as the Tasmanian Devil bounces all over the tunnel, he’s still moving a certain speed but point to point he’s all over the map Yeah, but within a constrained area. It’s fast. So the the class three We’ve never seen one up close Yeah We don’t know why it vibrates and how it’s vibrating but for sure it is Vibrating because we have it on imagery and on radar showing it vibrating. Yeah, and That does meet the threshold of several of the five characteristics or maybe six characteristics of UAPs and that is instantaneous Movement from point to point that Again, there’s no contrail. There’s no visible propulsion It’s just moving, you know, and we’ve had to ask ourselves and it’s still a theory is is everything in the sky
[64:54] You know a holographic projection Mm-hmm It is all just just the government or a government messing with our heads making us think we’re seeing something and all it is is plasmoids from space-based lasers Making shapes and they’re bouncing them across the sky to throw us off or make us think a thing I Accept that that could be a possibility, right? Because what we’re looking at with the class three defies any known physics any known logic of how it’s maneuvering So is it really there? Hmm, is it is it like I said a plasmoid with lasers or is there actually a physical craft there moving across the sky? They’d have to be if the government were doing that They’d have to know where you guys are and then like be trying to spoof you or something Which I guess is possible, but You know, I don’t know that’s that’s fascinating
[65:43] Do any of these classes are they attributed more to the psionic assets calling them in? Versus the machine based like is is it like the case? I’m just an example the jellyfish only shows up with the machine based thing or the psionic asset only attracts You know this particular class is that can you can you do those sort of attributions? Do you have data against that? So we have four and a half years of data with no psionics involved at all. Wow, right? So, okay, so that was all machine based. Yeah. Yeah, we’re running these government events Nobody there was doing anything psionic and if they did they wouldn’t have a clearance and they couldn’t be there anyway Right, like the government probably wouldn’t allow them to be present And I probably wouldn’t have hired them and onto my team to come help run the event if they were doing those things so no
[66:30] Four and a half years has no psionics whatsoever. We have eight classes with that That said once we started doing this In a very open mindset of well, I’m not a believer. I’m completely open like I’ve described several Obscure theories that could hold true whether it’s a holographic Projection whether it’s off planet on planet all these different theories We have to like I don’t have to believe all of them, but I have to accept that they could be true Yeah, I have to be completely open-minded here. Yeah to include on the psionic side Yeah, and what I would offer is on the psionic side I have had personal observations of things that this to the psionic team has done that appear to validate That their methods work. Yeah, one example is
[67:14] In August One of our principal psionic assets Jordan and apparently called in a craft and it when it could be an egg I don’t know what it is. Mm-hmm and He’s wearing a covering on his face. He’s under a patio He came and see the sky or what? I’m looking now looking at him and he’s having these experiences and then Fred Baker was out on the back patio watching the sky while he hears Jordan freaking out down there on the beneath the the porch down there and and Fred independently is like oh there it is because Jordan said where to look in the sky and Fred looked and saw an object Well and videoed it we didn’t have the all of our equipment. It’s very expensive to procure So we had rudimentary equipment at that event and when we caught rudimentary observations, right so but
[68:05] Jordan called it out literally said this is where it’s at in the sky This is what’s happening where it is and there’s some other things to go with that. But point being okay How does that how do you reconcile that? Yeah reconcile the entire event? Yeah, right fast forward to February Well, we ran an event in January without with the equipment with with no dog whistle and we got zero results Mm-hmm, right. So we have run events 24 hours a day We’ve run events without the dog whistle, but the same technology and play and we don’t get UAPs during those times It’s only a very narrow part of the day So in February up till February, I’d never seen a UAP with a naked eye ever Yeah, wow. Wow in five years of doing it. It was always through it through a sensor. Yep In February we actually had the for the first time the dog whistle paired with Psionic assets. Mm-hmm. And while we can’t say definitively this
[68:59] The psionic assets were responsible for the results we got sure for the first time they approximate close enough to see them Wow, they’d never done that before. Well, there’s too many variables, right? we have to repeat this ad nauseum until we can say with with some kind of scientific rigor that cause and effect or Coalition causation. Yeah. Yeah, we also introduced more chaos for four and a half years. We had no helicopter. I had no Jake Barber I had nobody to fly me up and go look and Part of our frustration with the government was we were underfunded When we were funded by the government for these events and even we were funded Explicitly by certain parties to go look at UAPs We were still underfunded there so we didn’t have the capacity to go get a helicopter or find Jake and and go fly up to them and And and because we’re not skinwalker ranch we are mobile We are nomadic and our end state is that we would like to make contact with or retrieve some of this material
[69:52] Right, so you’re not gonna do that by standing on the ground watching it and being static. Mm-hmm, right? So we want to fly to them and observe them So we introduced the helicopter activity and that introduced more chaos into the event. This is right So there’s too many variables to understand. Yeah cause and effect with that many variables being changed Yep, right So and one time when you were up in a helicopter the helicopter was sort of frozen like it couldn’t continue on Is that is that right? We sent the helo out to intercept the tic-tac But the first attempt failed because our radar was being jammed by the class 7 jellyfish Where did it where were we in the sky the first time you saw that? That was when you’re seven kilometers or so out to the northwest three four zero at that spot that we went to And we just Our helicopter launched and about a half mile out the helicopter stopped moving Engines running blades are turning But it would not go forward. It would not go up. It would not go left or right. It was stuck there So we’ve had several interactions with UAPs in the air. Mm-hmm First the most prominent UAP we see or the jellyfish to class 7. Mm-hmm
[71:03] When we chase them they evade us. Mm-hmm We have on video us flying towards the class 7 and it changing his flight path going into the wind going Perpendicular the wind and then elevating away from us, you know, we’re moving at 80 plus knots and a little bird and and Watching the class 7s with video and with radar. We know it’s airspeed and maybe it’s 30 or 40 knots We should be able to air air to air intercept that all day long But they consistently outrun us and escape us so So we’ve had that interaction then. Yes with a tic-tac I’ll talk through kind of what happened with the tic-tac is actually very interesting We had observed the class 7s fly through our radar beam and approximates our team repeatedly over Four or five days. I believe it was four days The on the fourth day the class 7 it was actually very interesting. We had nobody up on Outs up on the hill outside of the talk. It was a barren hilltop. The helicopter wasn’t there on the fourth day The class 7 came and hovered over us for about five minutes. All right now
[72:13] That’s never happened before and it hovered at about 800 meters over us So we could see with the naked eye for the first time as soon as As soon as We started coming outside the talk to look at it and grabbing other cameras are trying to image it it started moving away All right now understand the class 7 has some kind of inherent apparently inherent Microwave energy that it’s emitting right and that energy interferes with our cabling between our systems we believe So we’ve had we’ve noticed an effect that when the class 7 is present we lose connection to our sensors the the high-end sensors that were removed it into So our primary sensor didn’t collect on that class 7 while it was in hover or You know over us Once it departed the area our sensors turned back on and we were able to actually image it and I would offer
[73:10] We’ve never had that happen before everything we never have one approximate and we never had our sensors go down Okay, so we have all you know hundreds of thousands of dollars of camera gear inside the talk Right, and so here’s the team scrambling like like mice our primary sensor just quit working and now we’re like, all right Let’s grab the cameras and go image it so everyone’s in a hurry trying to do that and and poor Rory is out there just shooting all these videos and it’s taking Photos like oh, this is amazing and talking through it and then we look at the camera and there’s no SD card in it And we realized because there were our secondary systems like we’d never seen one with these cameras, right? They were there for emergency use and we hadn’t prepped them, right?
[73:52] sometimes Through those errors, you know, they’re costly but you learn right now We are prepared for our secondary systems to become primary because they approximate again, but we had to learn that the hard way Right, so we’ve seen the class sevens fly through our airspace routinely and probe apparently our active systems are emanating systems And so on the each day it seemed to get more I would say aggressive, but I don’t know that it’s aggressive It just got more interesting So maybe the first day it flies over over top of what our radar bubble should be Then maybe the next day it flies over top maybe a little bit lower and then deviates You maybe it’s coming from the West and it heads north and then and then later in the day it comes in from the West I had South as in as measuring our radar beam a later field So that’s the impression we got and then for the first time in February. We saw two jellyfish fly together in
[74:44] The radar and they offset from us equally So six kilometers north and south of us and they flew right past us, right? Well, so we’re like, well, that’s pretty cool I’ve never seen them in pairs before Yeah, and they’re obviously interested in us in the middle and they’re putting themselves in beam of our systems So then do they resemble the jellyfish that Jeremy Corbell revealed a couple years ago? No, not not to us like that looks like a shriveled up version of what we have Uh-huh, right. I would say, you know, our jellyfish are about two to three meters across in the head Yeah, I think they look like an aspirin pill. Yeah, I don’t know and The tentacles are about five meters long and I think the tentacles in your case if I’m Visualizing it correctly are a little more dynamically moving than the if you look at the Jeremy Corbell thing
[75:30] it’s I think it’s thermal imaging and they look like Kind of stuck together and like they’re not like the they’re not moving the tentacles. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, well, so yeah the tentacles seem to flow a little bit more and that’s actually gets into like I Hate the word debunk debunker debunking because it starts with the premise of we’re going to prove you’re a liar or prove you’re are You are incorrect instead of I’m going to consume what you’re saying. I’m gonna make a fair and unbiased Estimation of the validity of that animation and then release those results. So debunking to me is a Adversarial relationship, you know, and I think that there are paid Debunkers out there who are too quick. Yeah, I’m in and body slam in present falsehoods because they don’t know the whole story and they’re assuming they do and they’re assuming some kind of Malintent on our side of hey, these guys must be liars. These guys some kind of secret government program
[76:28] It none of it makes any sense at the end of the day, but the jellyfish what’s very interesting is If you take a balloon and release it into the wind and watch it which we have done The string will dangle below the balloon and why is that because the balloon relative to the wind is blowing in the wind You might get some oscillation of some turbulence or some Different winds at different levels as it transitions through those winds But for the most part you’re gonna look at a balloon and you’re gonna see basically like a lollipop Right a straight line coming down from the strings if you take a helicopter and you conduct Operations like Jake does with a long line and you put that long line under weight and you lift it up and start flying
[77:11] 60 80 100 knots, right? The long line with load is going to be maybe a 45 degree angle off the bottom of the helicopter You can be straight because it’s under it’s under load, but it’s blowing back from the relative wind pushing it back If you if you take that same helicopter and release the payload from it But keep the long line and then fly into the wind something very interesting happens Yeah, actually the long line actually forms a u-shape Yeah And the u is in the direction of travel and that’s because of the air pressure on that long line builds up in the middle Of it the surface area Becomes under enough pressure that action bends the line in the direction of flight so that as you’re flying into the wind
[77:55] It’s like a you or a sea flying like a Pac-man flying in the way, right? What’s interesting about the class sevens is We’ve released images of them with the tentacles sometimes being straight and then the same craft When we know it’s flying perfect Perpendicular to the wind in a swimming motion the long line the tentacles are actually in a Pac-man, you know shape Indicating that it is flying into the wind or it’s flying faster than the wind. It’s not floating with the wind So as these debunkers try to come out with their theories Sometimes it’s sad that they haven’t done their basic analysis and research and they’re they’re calling things balloons that you know Maybe one day we’ll find out it’s a balloon, but it’s not your run-of-the-mill Mylar yeah, but at Walmart if it is balloon, it’s a hybrid balloon that can lift apparently and maneuver against and Perpendicular to the wind at will and ascend and descend. Yeah, so these are properties that normally balloons can’t do So am I saying it’s not a balloon? No, yeah, but it but if it is a balloon has to be a hybrid
[79:01] Yeah, at least with our current understanding of physics. Yeah, and there’s something special about it, right? So secret physics, you know in it at least Minimum yeah proximity to it. It’ll say it don’t come any higher because that was when I told you guys That’s fascinating we were called out to intercept an object that was on found on radar We went to the location that was supposed to be at we circled a couple times and were requested to climb another thousand feet the Instrumentation started to bounce and the collective basically was frozen. And so you tried to, you guys flew up and it was a class 7, right, that you were chasing with the helicopter and then there was, it was like this, it was really interesting in this last video you guys released, there was like this almost like barrier you couldn’t get beyond or something? No, so to get back to the story, so we had class 7s on the fourth day, one hovered over us and we went to bed that night thinking what’s gonna happen next? Like what happens, like
[80:00] okay so they’ve done everything that you could do to indicate we’re interested in you, they’ve flown in beam, they must know whoever’s operating these so we can see them, they must know that we’re on the hill looking at them, like for sure they must know. When we fly a helicopter towards them they evade it, so they know that there’s there’s some kind of action force in the vicinity of them, right, some kind of action element, us. So on the fifth day I went to bed thinking what what’s more aggressive? Is it gonna come down and land? Is it gonna blow us up? Is it gonna hit us with energy? Like is it gonna send us a text message? You know like what’s gonna happen with this UAP that’s more aggressive than what it did so far? What should we expect? And so that night Jordan, our sonic lead if you will, came up to me and Alex like hey tomorrow we’re gonna see you know a conflict in
[80:45] the sky, we’re gonna have different UAPs are gonna come in and there’s gonna be… He sensed that. He said that. Whoa. And he said to me and Alex, and I’ve since talked to Jordan, I said Jordan never do that to me again ever. If you ever come up to me again bring a damn camera with a date time group in the screen, record you telling us this prediction, and then mail it to somebody outside of our group so that there’s proof that it transited to a third party because his prediction came true. Yeah. Right. Literally that’s what happened on the fifth day. We had jellyfish at a distance, we had extreme I will just say interference with our systems. Typically we’d never seen jellyfish interfere with us in the last several years and up to this day, the four days preceding it, we had had mild interference with our systems and disconnecting from the primary sensors when the jellyfish were in vicinity. But on the fifth day the interference was constant for two hours and because it’s constant we can’t see the jellyfish. Our primary sensor doesn’t connect. We can’t use it. So we
[81:56] started looking to try and figure out what’s going on. That’s when we discovered the class 2 tic-tac and the manta ray in the sky hiding behind the terrain between us and the jellyfish. That’s so fast. Right. And what’s really really crazy here is there have been two instances of UAP reacting seemingly to our intent. Uh-huh. So around 2003 we were running an event and we had the opportunity to bring, for the government event, we brought an energy weapon with us. And so we had this energy weapon up on the hill and we’re doing things with it for the government projects. Microwave? Yeah, something like that. Okay. And we saw a class 6 coming through our event. Right. And this was extracurricular in our own time. And somebody from another group was like, hey, let’s aim that thing at that UAP and see what happens if we energize it. So we’re like, sure, let’s just see what happens. Right. So this person went to to move. It was a, there was no electronic gimbal. It was like a manual antenna. You
[83:02] had to feed horn. You had to turn towards the UAP. So he’s like, goes out there a couple, you know, call it 60, 70 feet from our operating area. He’s out there and starts turning it towards it. Mid turn before he could actually turn it to the UAP, the UAP hit us with an energy weapon. Whoa. Right. And that energy weapon turned our systems off as an OFF, as in blank screens. Wow. It was working and then it was in the off position. Yeah. And it happened to systems that were not connected to the same network. Mm-hmm. And that were not used together. Mm-hmm. So I think there were three separate systems that turned off. Wow. All right. So did the UAP know that we were going to try to send energy towards it, high energy, microwave towards it? Seems like it. And did it react? I think so. Yeah. Because it’s never happened since because we’ve never tried that again. Yeah. And we can’t try it now commercially because that’s highly illegal. Don’t know anyone, no one
[84:02] should do that in the United States. Yeah. You should go to jail. Like that’s not a laughing matter. The FCC will get you. Yeah. Or the FAA or whoever it is. Yeah. You can’t just go do that. So it’s… Does that concern you at all? Just that interaction? Does that make you think twice about… because you hear rumors of directed energy being shot at UAP and I always, I don’t know, I feel conflicted about that. It feels like possibly dangerous, you know, territory. You guys are mostly doing just psionic based, or not psionic based stuff, but trying to get them to land? Or are you doing any of the shooting? No, no. So Skywatcher as a team, we are not aggressive. We’re not trying to go to war
[84:42] or have, you know, destroy American or Chinese or Russian equipment in the sky. Create an intergalactic battle. Yeah. Or have a war with NHI or whatever the hell it is. Like we’re not trying to do that. I want that pain. We don’t want that responsibility. Yeah. We are approaching this very scientifically and peacefully. And so those activities are activities that we want to do and if those are done, the government can go do that. We have no interest in harming or destroying any of this material or craft or beings. Like that’s not our interest at all. It’s quite the opposite actually. And our desire is that one lands and that is, with a psionic team, what we’re trying to do is get one to land peacefully, right? You know, we don’t need to harm or kill or maim or destroy. We want to observe, collect, and understand. So that was the first time that we had UAPs react to our action or intentions, we believe. The second time was with the TIC-TAC in February. I saw a manta ray, was watching the manta ray, and then it disappeared again. The manta ray and the TIC-TAC were hiding from our
[85:46] primary sensor. They approached from the one avenue of our approach we couldn’t see for miles and miles and they hid behind terrain and they used the terrain to mask their presence from our sensors that were being taken out anyway by the way we believe the jellyfish. So I sat there for probably 20 minutes and watched a manta ray in the sky. It looks kind of like a trash bag that never descends or just an amorphous shape that’s rolling and tumbling constantly. And then also a TIC-TAC right next to it. So they were both in the sky, kind of about the same place, about 800 meters elevation, about 800 meters away. We’re watching them. Manta ray for about 20 and then the TIC-TAC for about five. So at this time we did have the helicopter up on the hill and we had a lot of security because again this is day five of anomalous weird things
[86:35] happening that never happened before. So we are expecting something interesting. Jordan predicted it and it’s happening as he said. So I’m like hey I want to get in the helicopter and go see the TIC-TAC. Let’s go chase it. So like what else what other data can we can we get now? We can’t get radar, we can’t get the high-end imagery because those systems are off. They’re not connectable. This is the day I told you where our secondary systems weren’t ready to go. So we’re looking at them with binoculars and scopes and I’m like well let’s go get more data. So I turned to run down the hills about 200 meter run to get to the helicopter. I get 10 steps and the TIC-TAC starts flying away. So it sat there for over 25-30 minutes while we observed the manta ray and the TIC-TAC and then we watched once that was gone we watched only the TIC-TAC and then it just so happens that as I turn ready to run down the helicopter and on the radio hey start the helicopter up and deliberately to go fly to it that’s when it decides to depart. So did it know that I was coming to it?
[87:35] Did it understand my intention to fly up to it and pay it a visit? Yeah. You know? That’s amazing. Does that when you see that or the energy weapon anecdote do you ever worry that it’s just this crazy game of cat and mouse where the cat can mind read the mouse or whatever and you guys are the mouse you know trying to sense these things and it’s like if they can show that level of kind of you know prediction of intent you know is it will we ever get to you know clear resolution on these things? Well I don’t know. Right? Honest answer. Yeah it’s really hard to say like it is a cat-and-mouse game it feels like it does feel like how many times do you have to fly advanced technology and beam of a radar to know what it how it works? Right? Like how many years do you have to do it in a row? Right? So like clearly they are presenting as if they are measuring our capabilities and responses but if there’s an intelligent entity doing this do they not understand already? So clearly in my opinion it’s
[88:46] less about our technology and more about our reaction. Right? So they know we can see them. They know it because that week on the fifth day we chased like seven or ten UAPs before that. So it knew we were going to chase it. Right? It must have known whoever’s controlling it knew we were going to chase it. The question is why would they put themselves in beam and put themselves in that vulnerable apparently a vulnerable position repeatedly. So as you get into the philosophical here it’s really hard to understand and see through. Okay? Why are they putting themselves in this apparently a vulnerable position? Right? To what end? Do you know do they want us to fly to it? Do they want us to interact with it? I believe so. And are they aware of our intentions? I don’t know because our intentions have not always been pure. Right? Like I said somebody aimed an energy weapon at one of these things. Sure. And it took action. Yeah. Right? So is it how does that fit? I really wish we could sit and have a philosophical discussion with a
[89:49] philosopher and say like yeah let’s walk the dog on each possibility. Yeah. Because there might be enough data to understand that. Do the psionic assets are they able to overlay some of possible information? Like you see Jordan predicting oh the next day there’s going to be like a war in the sky and it’s accurate. To me that would and I know some of his story and out of respect for him I’ll let him come out with that whenever. But you know does that make you think oh a lot of this stuff he probably you know believes philosophically about this stuff might be right as well? Like you know increases the probability that you know the psionic assets are probably correct about maybe other things. Do they have any sort of metaphysical worldview around this that is possibly informative or
[90:33] illustrative of what you’re looking at? We haven’t figured that out yet. Right? We purposefully maintain a separation from the psionic team. Oh interesting. Yeah like a double blind or something. Yeah precisely like we’re up on a hill with our system using the dog whistle. We are not telling the psionic team we have tried this in the past but typically we do not tell a psionic team there’s something inbound. They have no idea what’s happening up on the hill. They can’t see it. They can’t hear it. They don’t know. Wow. Right? And then we’re documenting their call-outs and their descriptions and their efforts. Yeah. We’ve done that two or three events in a row. Yeah. Probably morph that and change that under guidance of our science team. Yeah. Just kind of understand if they know nothing and we don’t really know what they’re doing which is also the case then we can’t really we can’t to our knowledge make an effect and we can’t pollute the other’s minds with what’s gonna happen. Smart way to do it. Yeah. They must have I mean I’ve met a few of them and it seems like they have some pretty interesting backgrounds in
[91:33] past history where and I think this is gonna come out probably increasingly in the next year or two there are these kind of gifted and talented education programs in the United States that recruited often children to be kind of you know high-psi assets in various cases and probably for various use cases maybe part of the remote viewing stuff that Hal put off and Russell Targ started you know back in the day Stargate grill grill flame all of that and then maybe some UAP related stuff as well. What do you think about their stories is that do you think that that is a widespread program in the U.S. where they’re recruiting kind of these younger people? So stranger things is that a real show? It’s a really good question man. Talking to some of these folks their stories are very believable. Some of them have more than a story they have data, they have documents, they have places and names and dates that go with their stories. So
[92:33] I’d offer that there’s that data supports their story to a degree. It doesn’t prove or disprove anything psionic but it does show a programmatic nature of something occurring. Now is that programmatic nature due to their own condition or their own self or is it due to a third party instituting something with them for a purpose and I don’t know there’s enough data to know that yet. Perhaps somebody has compiled that data and can show that disparity or that proofs or actually not disparity but parity between the stories to say like there is a systematic program. I would offer a lot of times you have to lean on Occam’s razor. You have to go with like are people really that evil? Is our government really that evil? Are they really that subversive of the American
[93:23] way? I think there can be limited cases like that but I think they’re limited and I think when you look at this again through Occam’s razor you have to lean on no probably not and if there is it’s very very rare or done with. Yeah I’m with you. I mean I think there is a there there. I think some of these programs did exist and then it it’s hard for me to believe it was extremely widespread because we just have more of this stuff coming out but we also we did experiment with parapsychology. I do think you get into you know deeper levels of of government or aerospace and I do think people believe that the mind matter duality thing is not as simple as you know academia sort of presents it. Class four what are we looking at there? Class four is the orb. We’ve only seen that a couple years in a row when we did see the class four we’re doing certain activities for the
[94:19] government that we can’t do commercially and we’re only able to do them for a limited amount of time with the government. So I can’t describe those activities I can just say that they were extraordinary and different and when we did those activities is when we noted the class four. We think it’s about two three years apart across we’ve only seen it in the infrared short waves and medium wave infrared that could be due to atmospheric conditions dust in the air or other reasons. We’ve never had them on radar that we know of again we have a lot of data to cull through and it’s expensive and hard to analyze while working on that. So we relied on look there’s an object it’s below the cloud deck it’s not returning a laser range finder return it’s moving against the wind and what we observed was they two of them flew in together on either side of our valley and then camped for about four hours three and a half hours while actually class ones did something again extraordinary and different and then after the class ones were done they flew out together right. So I don’t think celestial bodies could
[95:29] represent like that or present like that excuse me I don’t think you know I don’t know of any craft that are that can you know we know the cloud deck wasn’t that high that day and in our estimation any drone or helicopter would have been curable and visible under those conditions and these were right here in the sky just just above us 45 degree angle off each horizon and elevated and they moved in tandem right as a pair so again that goes against like celestial bodies that goes against any known technology and so we believe that that is a class of UAP it could be another class that we’ve never seen do that activity before but you know we have a limited data right and we stayed as much. Which class did you add with
[96:14] the psionic assets which you just started working the egg the egg the class nine okay fascinating well that dovetails with Jake’s story where he said that he was when he retrieved the egg and yeah I think it was uh the mid-2000s on on the range in California uh there were some psionic assets present trying to call the thing in so that’s fascinating class five what are we looking at class five is the manta ray um it looks like a black body object that might have perhaps vents on top of it that emanate some kind of uh uh I’ll just call it plasma not necessarily a plasma although I do believe plasma is seen in conjunction with UAPs often but we don’t know that right so emanate something looks like plasma if um and it tumbles and rotates again not too dissimilar from a balloon but it does things that balloons don’t do
[97:09] like blink out of visibility or uh fly against the wind it does other things so um uh we we’ve we’ve seen the class five only twice I guess three times now um so we have more observations recently in 2025 I think the last time we saw one was like 23 um and um we don’t know a whole lot about it we have it on radar we have it on all the bands of imagery we don’t have any signant for it it’s probably about two and a half meters in diameter and um it just seems to fly through doesn’t really stop and smell the music yeah yeah yeah smell the roses excuse me yeah it doesn’t really hang out it just kind of moves through and and and then leaves yeah um until the event with the tic-tac were hovered in the sky and yeah so that was so fascinating it almost sounds like the manta and the tic-tac were like allied against the jellyfish like there was this like there’s definitely that there’s definitely so interesting like war of the world there’s
[98:16] okay class six what are we looking at um so the class six is what we call the bright star it vibrates a lot um and it uh it it does things to our equipment whether it’s shutting off our equipment or interferes in other ways with our equipment um to modify what we think we’re seeing right so so there’s some signature management there’s absolutely some signature management with the classics um so it doesn’t like us to track it right it doesn’t like us to put eyes on it we think that sounds like possibly human but i don’t know like all things are possible here um but uh the classics vibrates uh oscillates very fast so fast that uh if you’re looking at it under camera you think you see three of them uh one unit of measure of the craft to the left and to the right really it’s one vibrating you know that because it comes out of the out of the oscillation and stops and then you see it’s one craft and then it’ll turn back on and it moves
[99:18] so fast that our system thinks it’s a propeller so when it when it oscillates it’s a propeller it thinks interprets it as and then it’ll stop oscillating and then just kind of keep continue flying and then the radar will indicate that it’s not a propeller anymore wow right so um it does change brightness it’ll seem to like get very energetic much like the class 3 blob does it’ll it’ll emanate more light as it vibrates really fast and then when the light kind of dies down it stops vibrating as fast until it stops vibrating completely and then it’ll go back almost like a cycle almost like somebody’s starting a process in that process um that chain continues until it’s exhausted and then it returns to its old state that’s kind of what the impression is of what we’re seeing with the class six fascinating
[100:13] class a is the hornet okay um we’ve only seen a class 8 a couple times interesting yep um kind of like the class 5 it’s kind of elusive we’ve seen a whole bunch um anything specific that you did around that time where the the hornet entered or no um but the hornet was the last uap i chased oh uh in march yeah and that was you were telling me on the phone you got a little discombobulated or something no that was actually the tick that was the tic tac of the story you told the class a is the one we flew within about 200 meters and couldn’t see it okay and so what happened when you chased the hornet class 8 um it continued on its flight path didn’t deviate didn’t change um but we just couldn’t see it and document it interesting right so it just continued on a very slow it’s only moving like 20 knots whoa super super slow and agonizing so slow we were just doing orbits trying like getting you know chasing it in orbits trying to get aligned to it so we could visualize as we went past it we just couldn’t wow couldn’t ever see it class 9 uh the class
[101:14] 9 is the egg that’s the egg so is this is so fascinating is this the hope because i you know i spoke to jake i think it was in january and we had a really interesting discussion he said he expressed he exuded a lot of confidence he said in six months we’re going to get this thing to land if all things go well before i’m trying not to say a date but within the first half of 2025 we hope to do a demonstration and and invite key members of the public from institutions um and demonstrate this and maybe even get something to the ground and that’s going to answer a lot of questions that would be absolutely insane and i don’t know maybe that’s a you know elon musk style timeline that’s a little aggressive or something but is it can you guys get the egg to land is that presumably i would assume that’s the hope because of his past experience i look at some of these other classes and to me there’s such a gap between like the i don’t know the manta ray or hornet or some of these things and like
[102:22] you know a concrete object like on the ground that you can like reverse engineer and fly so is the hope the egg and can you guys bring it down pretty pretty quickly you know through peaceful psionic means or i have no expectation okay i literally don’t know yeah like is the egg a real craft yeah is the thing we imaged with our rudimentary imaging system at the time even there right um if it is there can jordan or someone else control it right if they can’t control it are they able to tell it to land and have it land i would offer in known history that has never happened right and if it has happened it’s in a closed program that nobody knows about well according to jake it’s happened well yes yeah so show me the money yeah yeah right i’m open-minded yeah i’m hopeful i would love for that to happen yeah that’d be perfect that’d be wild will it happen yeah will happen in six months i have no idea yeah when i like it too of course i
[103:17] would is is that the one you’re holding out hope for as far as some sort of retrieval of actual material or or are there others that you feel might be able to you might be able to derive material from or any of these crafts appear to have material and technology that we don’t understand so if any of them were to land or crash that would be very interesting i can say some could be non-physical though some or some sort of plasma ball thing right i accept that could be the case yeah some of them might be holograms or plasmoids or things that if they land there’s molten the fan turns to to glass or metal or whatever right sure i don’t know sure why not um i believe we’ve seen four uaps crash over the years um really yeah you’ve seen them crash we believe and i say believe for a lot of reasons we’ve seen three class ones um
[104:16] uh when we were doing you know in 2023 we did something special for the government uh the uaps behaved differently and uh we saw about 200 uaps in a day over a four-hour period and they were all almost all class ones at the time and they were actually coming instead of just flying through our airspace they’re coming from directly over us as if from space so they would come straight down ingress and then and then they would egress out low level away from us and they did it in ones and twos and threes at a time we saw about 200 of them total 240 um the class ones that are doing that that’s different right so as they were doing that we saw three of them that instead of coming in in the low level egressing came in at an angle from directly overhead and just continued as if to the ground whoa and they went below the the the ridge lines and we never saw them come up you go look for them yeah so it’s actually really bad timing um
[105:17] that year we had a really epic rainfall that afternoon after the show was over it rained for like two days straight oh man um i had to wait about a week and then i took a whole crew um for a uh hunt for a cartel drone that had crashed uh-huh and we were out there looking for probably six or eight hours we found nothing nothing and again what are we looking for i’m looking for a glass crystal ball i’m looking for a cube i’m looking for carcass yeah like what am i looking a tetrahedron like what am i looking for yeah no idea yeah um and and some of these deserts are extremely rugged and at the time i didn’t have a helicopter yep um and then in 2024 um we saw a class 8 that started 3,500 meters above us as it came through and it’s sorty there’s the hornet yep yeah and then finished it sorty just a couple hundred meters over the ground again right at terrain level so um we went out this january and flew for probably two hours hour
[106:19] looking for anything again what are we looking for i don’t know extremely rugged and difficult terrain so we think we’ve seen them crash without us to our knowledge doing anything to cause that but we have yet to find any wreckage or find anything to show like there is something here so fascinating dude what do you think sorry i keep saying it so bad but it is just like it’s just so interesting um um do you think that the government could be red teaming you guys at all i mean you know uh uh you were in california near palmdale and then you were also in finley in texas and those are near you know pretty sensitive training facilities test sites that sort of thing do you think that any of the prime aerospace contractors are throwing stuff at you to kind of mess with your reconnaissance systems or mess with your detection systems or so i would offer my opinion is no and the reason why is the craft we are seeing are conducting
[107:16] explicitly illegal operations of antis they’re invisible there’s no markers they don’t have adsb they don’t have ais they don’t have anything on board to show their presence also they’re flying adjacent to or in commercial air corridors right where all commercial traffic flies and they’re flying at flight levels we see my flight level 180 we see them i presume higher uh than 180 we know higher but we can’t measure it because it’s too high for a radar to reach so um whoever is doing this if it is domestic like they need to be they need to you know get their affairs in order before they get caught because um if it is domestic then they’re breaking the law you know felt feloniously would you have a say a mick west we just talked about debunkers mick west or somebody like that out on the range to try to stress test you know what what you’re doing yeah um i i think we’re willing to work with certain people um frankly personally like i have
[108:17] no time for debunkers yeah someone starts saying i want to debunk i just kind of get angry and kind of want to like lash out like like just be open-minded yeah just listens take off your lenses yeah of opinions and just open your mind and accept yeah uh let us let us give you share some knowledge so we can learn together uh should we should we invite out a mick west or whatever maybe that could happen yeah um but frankly like i have no interest in him but you would take a credentialed scientist out there who doesn’t necessarily have a you know an a priori interest in ufos yeah absolutely because understand the difference one entity is hostile yeah and extremely opinionated and it has a preconceived notion of what you’re saying and the other entity is open-minded and willing to understand what you’re saying before they formulate their opinion for sure and so the one uh the hostile one like again it uh i treat hostility with hostility i
[109:12] have no desire to work with talk to interact or face with them because bad things will happen and it’s bad for everybody yeah right so um uh i’d rather focus on the people who actually are open-minded have the intelligence necessary to understand the problem and aren’t simpletons yeah yeah yeah what uh what’s your take on the jersey drone situation we were we were just talking about that before we started rolling and it still feels so frustratingly inconclusive you have the white house saying that they were faa research drones after trump i think told his you know special assistant go look into this and that was just such an unsatisfying answer for so many you know residents of jersey um what do you think was happening i think um one of our adversaries has the ability to fly with impunity and operate in our airspace and we are helpless to stop it that’s insane that’s really scary um and any reason to believe that that you can discuss publicly
[110:15] uh i i think that uh langley air force base based on uh news articles was probably done by china and um that was 17 days of just completely unperturbed incursion yes exactly and and i think that uh you know we know that the hab the balloon that flew through was from china so there’s only one entity that has a past performance to my knowledge of flying in our airspace with apparent impunity uh with us not doing anything to stop it and that’s china so why wouldn’t you naturally arrive at a sustained uh intrusion in our airspace why wouldn’t you assume it’s china until proven otherwise if you have two explicit examples in very high likelihood being china or we know it’s china so the question we have to ask ourselves is are the craft we’re
[111:04] seeing group three drones are they uaps operated by china and and what are their permutations thereof like what does it mean if it is or isn’t a ua can they carry payloads if they’re flying with exotic flight principles i mean that’s a really scary possibility and what is the purpose if it is a china or russia whoever it is to what end why would they do that to the american populace why would they continue when they know we’re looking is it to show our incompetence is it is it to derail our national security apparatus and say like look how incompetent you are we can do what we want is it because that’s why i have trouble believing it’s china right yeah it’s just so i mean what it flex right like if you’re doing that over residential neighborhoods in jersey that’s kind of an act of war that’s serious i think that’s why our government’s constrained right because on the one hand our government whose job is to protect the nation can’t
[112:06] come out and be incompetent no like it cannot be done so they have to be able to protect us i think in the 60 minutes uh article or episode they did on this yeah they spoke with the norad commander and he said something that was very telling he said that um uh we have allowed uh technology uh the threat to grow we don’t have technology to match something something along those lines basically meaning that maybe whoever is doing this has a capability that we have not grown defensive technology enough to counter yes freaky well then you have the trump statement at the time where he goes uh biden knows yeah they know what this is it’s coming from a garage it’s very strange we know where the garage is and that makes me think nhi our military knows where they took off from if it’s a garage they can go right into that garage they know where it came from and where it went i can’t imagine it’s the enemy because it was the enemy that blasted
[113:06] out even if they were late they’d blast it something strange is going on for some reason they don’t want to tell the people and they should and then you had that i think sheriff the local sheriff in new jersey saying that he thought he saw them come out of the water and you know transmedium is this you know important observable of uaps and uh you know there are rumors of underwater bases and that sort of thing so that made me think maybe nhi but it’s well i mean it’s also i would talk about this with jake it could be a mix you know you could use the presence of nhi uap to opportunistically flood the zone and then it’s extremely hard to figure out what’s what yeah i think so i i’m open to all concepts here i personally my opinion is that it’s probably unnecessary it’s probably china yeah but um that’s why there’s so many unknowns yeah like like um how do you figure it out and tell the tale i hope at the highest level
[114:05] we’ve figured it out whether it’s adversary or nhi i hope i hope somebody knows because yeah yeah yeah i i hope they do too i like to have faith in my government and believe that they are doing the right thing i know i was in the government for a long time i know a lot of government officials um generally very very good people patriots who love their country and want nothing but the best for all of us so i hope i really hope that they do have this figured out and that they have a capability and that we can rest easy and not worry about it but there’s the potential that some of that might not be the case yeah that maybe they haven’t figured it out and five years from today do you have any hopes dreams expectations for sky watcher yeah i would like to have sky watcher as part of the golden dome i would like to be uh proactive on the uap problem we have a technology to detect uaps uh we’re growing that technology that technology
[115:01] should be everywhere um not because i’m a capitalist i want to make a lot of money of course of course most people want to make money and be independently wealthy but for the national security implications of here’s a phenomena here’s a thing on our airspace moving with impunity through our air corridors and nobody knows anything about it so if we deploy the right sensors in the right mix we we can become masters of our airspace and become air aware if you will of what’s going on so that’s why we started sky watcher that’s why we’re developing the technology and in five years it’d be wonderful if it’s deployed and then now we can have a body of knowledge and data on this phenomena on this threat on this instance of what’s occurring and be able to make educated decisions at that point have you seen the movie arrival
[115:49] yes do you ever think like you know a lot of what you guys are doing is you know kind of initiating contact in some ways and is it worth getting a symbologist on staff or you know some some cultural anthropologist or something or is it is it worth thinking about how you know if we are interacting with them eventually in a more intimate way than like you know just sensors um you know making sure that that those first interactions are friendly and good to the extent that you know that might dictate you know future relations i mean possibly yeah i mean i don’t think the sky watcher team is first contact right if our government sure has been interacting with these things for decades that’s first contact yeah second third or 90th right in the west we’re just the first public well you hear rumors around that stuff where it’s like i don’t know i have no idea how much weight to put in this but it’s like the aliens are the nhi are coming back for their stuff and they’re not happy that you know the way
[116:52] the government has interacted with the material and that sort of thing it’s you know to weaponize this stuff and it’s not to create you know civil side propulsion or whatever and that could totally be a bunch of mushy brained woo woo ufo people um you know just saying you know of which i can be one sometimes or whatever you know just engaging wishful thinking but um yeah do you lend any credence to any of that stuff or i think i think there’s a lot of smoke right i don’t know where the fire is at right it’s really really hard to see through again i said before that i think that there there are elements of our government and other governments who are using information operations warfare on this topic i don’t know their motives i don’t know to what end but i think it’s in our face that that’s happening um look at the second episode and look at reddit and how it blew up with all these apparent bots talking a lot of
[117:51] negative trash about sky watcher and balloons like somebody paid money for that like is mick west working for somebody is somebody paying him months good question are these paid actors yeah um are those paid actors employing uh different technology to subvert knowledge or modify knowledge right and to what end yeah um so i do think that there’s evidence there that evidence could be studied again that costs money to do yeah it costs a lot of money to go and research a bunch of reddit users and show it’s a botnet and right like it’s doable it’s just expensive right yeah yeah so but it’s my belief that those things are happening um maybe it’s not america maybe it’s our adversaries who are controlling some of those messages um for their own motives and means but as a civilian it’s really hard to say why but the what i think is fairly obvious that that is happening yeah yeah yeah james fowler this is an honor man i appreciate your time this is fascinating and i’m
[118:50] curious to see where all of your efforts go thanks jesse awesome wish me all right